Custom Skill Enhancers

[joeteller]

How do I add specialized Custom Skill Enhancers? I find nothing in the docs to do this and can find no simple way to do it thru playing with the program.

[Simon]

You don't.

About all you can do is edit the ones that are there and edit the types/abilities that they affect.

[joeteller]

Thats annoying and definitely a feature I want improved on. It makes converting a specific setting of mine to Hero nearly impossible.

Ok how do I edit the existings ones then?

[Simon]

It's probably a feature that will not be coming. I have no plans to add it at this point. HD is meant to follow/simulate the rules of the HERO System. The HERO System is very specific about what Skill Enhancers are, what they affect, and which ones are available.

If you want to edit any of them, you'll need to edit the template. Follow the instructions for editing templates contained in the documentation.

[joeteller]

The less customization possible to fit house rules, the less people will want the program. Its a basic marketing thing. I'm the first person in my gaming club to buy the program, and if it doesn't allow adaption to house rules, I'll probably be the last. Everyone I know that plays Hero has some house rules, restrictions or requires different values on things.

This is the second major hassel we've found (the first was with the Megascale system being non-adjustable).

I haven't known any gaming group anywhere that uses hero that doesn't mod the rules in some way. The harder it is to use the program to handle this, the less likely it is for them to buy it. Not everyone wants to sit and hack code.... most just want simple ways of telling the software what is wanted and how to do it.

The Prefab system implies that a desire for flexibility was intended in the design, as well as expandibility. I don't see why a similar prefab concept can't be applied to this particular problem.

Oh well. I've tried to help the hero revival. I guess there's no real interest in meeting customer needs but a desire for a 'one true way' on how things will be done. I'm sure you folks will do fine without our money....

[Simon]

You're right, I'm a horrible person with no interest in my customers.

I'm so ashamed.

If you honestly think that I have no interest in helping out the customers of HD, then you're a fool. I have bent over backwards to help support people's individual needs with the application.

However, there are some things that will not be changed. If having a fixed set of Skill Enhancers makes the application worthless to you, then don't buy it. It's that easy.

But do <b>not</b> tell me that I have no interest in meeting customer needs.

[joeteller]

I'm a customer. I bought the software as soon as it was available. I also have spent about $500 on Hero related books this year for our gaming club, and pretty much will decide where we'll be spending money next.

And nearly every time I have posted on the various boards with questions or problems regarding the software I have been told that 'There Is One True Way' we have no intention of making changes to the software to do anything that doesn't follow that way.
Just as you have done this time.

That shows a lack of customer interest in regards to desires and needs as far as I am concerned. And a lack of interest in the money I've spent to help support your product line. You may think otherwise, thats your right.

You may know programming, but you don't seem to know basic business concepts of customer support from what I've seen.

[SAVeira]

Originally posted by dsimon
You're right, I'm a horrible person with no interest in my customers.

I'm so ashamed.

If you honestly think that I have no interest in helping out the customers of HD, then you're a fool. I have bent over backwards to help support people's individual needs with the application.

However, there are some things that will not be changed. If having a fixed set of Skill Enhancers makes the application worthless to you, then don't buy it. It's that easy.

But do <b>not</b> tell me that I have no interest in meeting customer needs.

I very happy with the level of support and aid given to users of HD. In fact, I have never seen such great and quick support given.

I never expected that HD would alway wholesale customizing. It is designed to support the Hero System 5th Edition, not a home brewed. There are limits to what one can with programming. Also a programmer myself, I have been very impress with dsimon work and know how hard it can be to get something work. That is part of the reason I paid for the HD program instead of trying to make my own.


S.A. Veira

[JmOz]

HOWEVER, Dan does need some customer relation skills training (Calling a dissatisfied customer a fool is NEVER helpful), sorry the program is good, I wish for some more customability, but don't expect it on all things that are related to my house rules (I figure ranges differently for one thing).

IF you have a problem with Dan's attitude I suggest you write to Darren Watts and Steve Long, maybe they will pay for that training I mentioned above.

I do see both sides of this argument, and I do think that some more customability should be built into the system. I also see Dan's point of not wanting it to be a generic gaming aid but one for hero.

However sometimes the way Dan sees something is counter intuitive in my opinion (For instance I feel Damage Shield should be available for all powers, and if selected it will add the continous advantage to a power, another example is that I would like to be able to type 5 in charges and actually have it realise that it is the same lim as 5-6). However if this is how Steve and Darren want it then that is how it will be.

Also everyone should try to remember that Dan is NOT a Hero Games Employee, he is a freelance programer hired by Darren and Steve to design a software program, if you have a problem with how the software handles something you should take it up with them and then let them take it up with dan. If you sidestep the appropriate channels then you should expect a little rough sailing.

Okay, I've ranted enough.

[joeteller]

I've been patient. I asked my questions nicely and precisely.

I explained the problems with the 'one true way' school of design from a marketing point of view, and that I could not recommend the software to friends, fellow players etc if some flexibility was not included in the design.

I'm a dissatisfied customer. There was a time when companies would care about this and go out of their way to do something about fixing this. There was a time when the reputation of a company meant something, and it decided whether they got repeat business.

Its like buying a printer and being told it won't run on your particular model of computer; or being told it will, but will randomly crash or only print if you use 3 specific fonts, or that you have to write to a specific page format that they approve of.

Its hurting creativity, hurting flexibility, reducing options in design. Do it enough and you end up with a lot less customers.

Hero is complex enough that there are players who won't use it without the program to design their characters. If that program does not reflect the rules the GM is using (and we're not talking major design changes here, just minor tweaks for setting and balance) then they don't play hero. The look for a system that isn't so complex that it needs software, or they look for a system that has software that does fit the needs of the GM for customizing for their game setting.

Either way, the customers go elsewhere.... and they tell friends to go elsewhere... and those friends tell friends.... and before you know it there are a lot less Hero Players... and then not enough sales to keep it all in print.

I have spent a lot on hero. So far, I'm not as satisfied with the result than if I had kept my money, designed my own system, and paid to get it printed for my gaming group. The 'One True Way' attitude has a lot to do with my dissatisfaction, and this reaction to it in regards to the software is just icing on the cake.

Ease of Use was what I wanted the software for. Its not what I'm getting.

Joe

[Simon]

Originally posted by JmOz
Okay, I've ranted enough. [/B]

Yes...you have.

You've made your opinions of me clear in the past.

Frankly, I really don't care. I will continue to treat people the way I see them as treating me.

I will also continue to decide what areas of "customization" are added into the product. The original specification did not state <b>any</b> level of customization....this is all "extra" work on my part.

[EternityShard]

Originally posted by joeteller
You may know programming, but you don't seem to know basic business concepts of customer support from what I've seen.

Ha.

Haha.

Hahahahaha.



Damn right. Damn you, Dan, for fixing and changing only 99.99% of the requests put to you. If only you'd fix that other 0.01% of the requests (you know, the ones that would require the most time and effort, far more than all the other changes combined), then you'd be a decent person. Until then, though, you are a horrible, horrible, person with no concept of customer support, a simple code-poet unaware of your customer-base and their needs.

I'll never buy another thing from you, Mr. Dan Simon! At least until version 2.0 comes out.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by joeteller
You may know programming, but you don't seem to know basic business concepts of customer support from what I've seen.
Joe, I certainly agree that Dan is rough around the edges when it comes to customer interaction (he gets defensive and argumentative too quickly), but you have to understand that Hero Games made a decision that the software would support the official rules. Not your mutant rules, not my mutant rules, not Dan's mutant rules (and if he plays the game he probably has house rules too).

There are plenty of work-arounds here. You could add a -1 Adder to each skill called DEX Enhancer (or whatever type of enhancer you need); you could even set these up as Prefabs so characters would not have to create them every time.

Next you could just buy the skills as Custom Skills, and thus make the point cost whatever you want it to be.

Finally you could even use another Skill Enhancer (one that you do not normally use in the game like Jack Of All Trades) and then rename all those skill associated with that enhancer to whatever you want (not sure if that works, but I think it might).

I am sorry the system is not to your 100% liking, but it can do pretty much anything you want it to do if you just take the time to think it through.

[joeteller]

Originally posted by JmOz
HOWEVER, Dan does need some customer relation skills training (Calling a dissatisfied customer a fool is NEVER helpful), sorry the program is good, I wish for some more customability, but don't expect it on all things that are related to my house rules (I figure ranges differently for one thing).

IF you have a problem with Dan's attitude I suggest you write to Darren Watts and Steve Long, maybe they will pay for that training I mentioned above.

Also everyone should try to remember that Dan is NOT a Hero Games Employee, he is a freelance programer hired by Darren and Steve to design a software program, if you have a problem with how the software handles something you should take it up with them and then let them take it up with dan. If you sidestep the appropriate channels then you should expect a little rough sailing.

Okay, I've ranted enough.

Sorry, I didn't realize he was an outside contractor and not an actual employee. I thought the concept of the boards was that these were the appropriate channels to post about problems with the software and that they were being read and responded to by Hero Staff who were giving official responses.

Thanks for the additional info....

Joe

[ChipDancer]

Stupid Newbi Interjection! :D

(In reference to person who is asking main question)

Maybe ye could ask the people here to help ye? I mean after all it is a very large community and wut ye may be having an issue accomplishing may be easy for someone else who has already tackled the issue?

If tis a template ye are looking to make fer yer custome campaign den why not ask for help from the general community? Me sure someone would like to aid ye!

:)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by ChipDancer
Maybe ye could ask the people here to help ye? I mean after all it is a very large community and wut ye may be having an issue accomplishing may be easy for someone else who has already tackled the issue?

If tis a template ye are looking to make fer yer custome campaign den why not ask for help from the general community? Me sure someone would like to aid ye!
I cannot help him with the rewrite of the template (the option Dan suggested), but I would be happy to write up the Skills with the -1 Adder and the new Skill Enhancers option I suggested and put them into a Prefab for him. I could easily do that in a day.

[ChipDancer]

WOW!!! :O

Nice people already replying!!!

:)

Tis feel so warm in here...
:D

[joeteller]

Originally posted by Monolith
Joe, I certainly agree that Dan is rough around the edges when it comes to customer interaction (he gets defensive and argumentative too quickly), but you have to understand that Hero Games made a decision that the software would support the official rules. Not your mutant rules, not my mutant rules, not Dan's mutant rules (and if he plays the game he probably has house rules too).

There are plenty of work-arounds here. You could add a -1 Adder to each skill called DEX Enhancer (or whatever type of enhancer you need); you could even set these up as Prefabs so characters would not have to create them every time.

Next you could just buy the skills as Custom Skills, and thus make the point cost whatever you want it to be.

Finally you could even use another Skill Enhancer (one that you do not normally use in the game like Jack Of All Trades) and then rename all those skill associated with that enhancer to whatever you want (not sure if that works, but I think it might).

I am sorry the system is not to your 100% liking, but it can do pretty much anything you want it to do if you just take the time to think it through.

The problem is that these fixes are fine if it was just me using the program, but its not. I have a collection of players who are being sat down at my machine to put together their PCs in a reasonable period of time, and who are not programmers and who are not long time Hero players.

They understand checklists, click-n-plug and pull down menus. They are not going to know all the inns and outs of getting the various custom options to work the way they want. They are certainly not going to sit down and hack code.

Additionally these 'fixes' slow down the process. The longer it takes to do something the less time I have elsewhere. If the software allowed me to fix things once and not have to go back and do it again and again I wouldn't complain (thats what the prefabs do and thats fine by me as to how this should work).

Theres also a matter of the fact of how Hero Designer is advertised (from the Hero Site):

"Designed specifically for the HERO System©, Hero Designer has an intuitive, easy-to-use interface and a powerful, template-driven structure that provide the flexibility and functionality you expect from a Hero product."

"Customizable Game Elements
You can customize any game element, including the costs of Characteristics and Powers or the formulas for calculating Figured Characteristics."

Prefab Files
Using Prefab Files, you can create lists of pre-generated Powers and abilities, such as Package Deals. "

See, to me those descriptions say that the program SHOULD be able to handle the things I need, and do so in a way that I can create Prefabs to handle them so I don't need to re-invent the wheel every time I build a character.

The flexibility and functionality I expect is evidently a lot greater, somehow, than they think it should. Even though the adding of additional Skill Enhancers is an accepted rule change according to the basic rule book (pg 353). Evidently using OPTIONS from the rule book is being too flexible by Dan's assessment.

Then again Dan says that the flexibility, prefabs etc were not part of the original spec for the program.... which is again weird considering the advertising they've been making since the begining.

Thanks for your response.

Joe

[Monolith]

Originally posted by joeteller
Prefab Files
Using Prefab Files, you can create lists of pre-generated Powers and abilities, such as Package Deals. "

See, to me those descriptions say that the program SHOULD be able to handle the things I need, and do so in a way that I can create Prefabs to handle them so I don't need to re-invent the wheel every time I build a character.
Joe, I could set this up as a Prefab so that the only thing the players would have to do is pick the skills off a list. That's it!

I will be gone for a few hours, but if you email me the lists you need done, I will set up a Prefab and send it back to you sometime tomorrow. If you don't like it, nothing lost. If you do like it, problem solved. My email address is: Monolith@oco.net . I'll be happy to help.

[tiger]

Originally posted by joeteller
You may know programming, but you don't seem to know basic business concepts of customer support from what I've seen.

MMM

I really can't understand Dans position at all. He's only spent vasts amount of time building a program. Then he releases it and spend even more time to fix any PROBLEM that the program has.

He has sent out numerous updates fixing and improving the program. He's answered numerous questins, help people modify templetes to suit them. Only to have some people complain and insult his business skills.

He has made the best character generating program I've seen or heard about. Even people who don't play the system like it. I've heard several people who play the D20 system say they wish he'd make one for their system.

Reminds me of two sayings:

You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all the time

No good deed goes unpunished


Nope can't understand his position at all.

PS: Dan keep up the great work :D

[Simon]

Originally posted by dsimon
If you want to edit any of them, you'll need to edit the template. Follow the instructions for editing templates contained in the documentation. [/B]

Joe - If you'd stop feeling sorry for yourself and listen to what I've been telling you, you'd find a perfectly workable solution.

Read the documentation on editing templates. You can edit the way that Skill Enhancers work within the template. You can change what abilities they affect within the template. You can change the display value for them. You can change the cost for them. You can change the point savings for them.

The only thing that you cannot do is add in additional Skill Enhancers. For this you would simply create a list and assign a Custom Adder to each ability in that list that you want to be affected by your "custom enhancer". As has been suggested, you can then save this as a prefab and have your players use that prefab when creating characters.

If you edit the template, you would have your players use that template when creating characters.

If you'd stop complaining about what the application "can't do", you'd realize that there's very little that cannot be done with the application.

Are some house rules more difficult to accomplish? Absolutely. This is not a "generic character generator". The primary intention of the application is to allow people who are not intimately familiar with the rules to create characters as easily as possible. <i>Within the rules</i>. The customization and support for "house rules" is secondary, but still fully possible. The application is <b>extremely</b> customizable.

[JmOz]

Originally posted by tiger
MMM

I really can't understand Dans position at all. He's only spent vasts amount of time building a program. Then he releases it and spend even more time to fix any PROBLEM that the program has.

He has sent out numerous updates fixing and improving the program. He's answered numerous questins, help people modify templetes to suit them. Only to have some people complain and insult his business skills.

He has made the best character generating program I've seen or heard about. Even people who don't play the system like it. I've heard several people who play the D20 system say they wish he'd make one for their system.

Reminds me of two sayings:

You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all the time

No good deed goes unpunished


Nope can't understand his position at all.

PS: Dan keep up the great work :D

Let me say a few things to this: Dan is a great programer from what I see, I have a few differences in the design mentality (The damage shield thing I mentioned above for example), but the program is an excelent piece of software that does what it is designed to do.

However I will CHALANGE you to find one person who thinks that the way Dan treats customers is appropritae (other than himself). I am not saying he does not have the right to his anger, but all you need to do is look up and see how he responded to me, joe, or many others to realise that he needs to learn to keep it to himself when dealing with customers.

[JmOz]

Originally posted by dsimon
Yes...you have.

You've made your opinions of me clear in the past.

Frankly, I really don't care. I will continue to treat people the way I see them as treating me.

I will also continue to decide what areas of "customization" are added into the product. The original specification did not state <b>any</b> level of customization....this is all "extra" work on my part.

Don't care if you care, truth is truth, opinion is opinion, and the truth of my opinion on your customer service skills is well known, and while maybe not universaly accepted, have at least enough support to show merrit.

Second, here is a quote from you and I want you to think about the following question: How much harder would it have been to leave off the first paragraph, and what would you as a customer feel about it with the first paragraph and with out the first paragraph.

Joe - If you'd stop feeling sorry for yourself and listen to what I've been telling you, you'd find a perfectly workable solution.

Read the documentation on editing templates. You can edit the way that Skill Enhancers work within the template. You can change what abilities they affect within the template. You can change the display value for them. You can change the cost for them. You can change the point savings for them.

The only thing that you cannot do is add in additional Skill Enhancers. For this you would simply create a list and assign a Custom Adder to each ability in that list that you want to be affected by your "custom enhancer". As has been suggested, you can then save this as a prefab and have your players use that prefab when creating characters.

If you edit the template, you would have your players use that template when creating characters.

If you'd stop complaining about what the application "can't do", you'd realize that there's very little that cannot be done with the application.

Are some house rules more difficult to accomplish? Absolutely. This is not a "generic character generator". The primary intention of the application is to allow people who are not intimately familiar with the rules to create characters as easily as possible. Within the rules. The customization and support for "house rules" is secondary, but still fully possible. The application is extremely customizable.

Also consider how you would like being called a fool, being ridiculed on a public board, and essentialy being treated like an idiot (something I have seen you do to others). Say what you will about my rants against your customer service skills, but I have NEVER struck at you personaly (saying your an idiot, fool, etc...) nor have I in memory said anything about your primary skills, that of a programer, except to say that I would have designed parts differently as far as the interface goes (in my opinion most people would do SOME things differently, while those things will most likely be differently from person to person).

Just think about it

[Chaosliege]

Originally posted by JmOz

However I will CHALANGE you to find one person who thinks that the way Dan treats customers is appropritae (other than himself). I am not saying he does not have the right to his anger, but all you need to do is look up and see how he responded to me, joe, or many others to realise that he needs to learn to keep it to himself when dealing with customers.

Ok. I do. Dan has been very helpful to any one who treats him with respect. Some people seem to be of the opinion that because they are a customer, they can treat people however they want with no reporcusions(sp). Dan isn't just an "employee", he's a person. He started this with the simple comment that the feature this guy wants is available through a template edit. He told where the directions for editing templates are. Then this guy goes on a tirade because he's not a programmer. RESPECT people, or expect none in return.

[tiger]

Originally posted by JmOz
Just think about it

Well is his "tone" extremely professional, maybe not.

But tell you what Jim, you spend the number of hours he has on a program, only to have people complain about it and tell you that unless you change it to fit them others won't buy it. Then we'll see how your "tone" is.

[tiger]

Originally posted by Chaosliege
RESPECT people, or expect none in return.

Well said!

[EternityShard]

Originally posted by JmOz
Also consider how you would like being called a fool, being ridiculed on a public board, and essentialy being treated like an idiot (something I have seen you do to others).

He's been called a fool (or similar) a number of times on the public boards. I've seen it. Dan didn't get upset until he was insulted.

How hurt and upset would you be if someone insulted the very thing you've poured your heart and soul into for a long time? Joeteller apparently takes it for granted that Dan bends over backwards to make changes and fix bugs, at *customer* request. Such that when Dan isn't willing to make a small change, he's suddenly seen as a heartless cur with no sense of customer obligation.

Bah. I am firmly behind dan on this matter.

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Chaosliege
Ok. I do. Dan has been very helpful to any one who treats him with respect. Some people seem to be of the opinion that because they are a customer, they can treat people however they want with no reporcusions(sp). Dan isn't just an "employee", he's a person. He started this with the simple comment that the feature this guy wants is available through a template edit. He told where the directions for editing templates are. Then this guy goes on a tirade because he's not a programmer. RESPECT people, or expect none in return.

I will agree with this assesment for the most part to save time and get to the point: You are in essence saying that because Dan got treated badly (and by the 5th post I will agree with that) he has the right to treat the other guy badly in turn, further more he has the right to Up the antee by refering to him as a fool (turning it from a customer argument, that of the program will not sell as well, to a personal argument, insulting the person). This is why I make it a point to not insult Dan as a person when ever I do these rants, I don't know him.

See I have a serious issue with the concept of it is alright to treat people badly because you have been treated badly first. That is why I try to keep my rants on one specific area at a time, and make it a point not to call names, or get personal.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by joeteller
You may know programming, but you don't seem to know basic business concepts of customer support from what I've seen.

WHOA! Uncalled for... 15 yard penalty for delay of game.
Dan is an contractor working for HERO. He built a product to the specification of the Employer. You bought the product with a basic understanding of how the game works. It is hardly plausible to expect the Program to be modified to suit the needs of House Rules for every Game. The Software is written to conform to the rules of the game as written... I think that is a VERY reasonable expectation.

As far as Customer Support goes, this product has seen more support out of a solo programmer than I have seen in teams of HUNDREDS of programmers *cough*microsoft*cough*.

I have NEVER had such a direct line to the developers before, nor such speedy responses, patches and fixes.

[JmOz]

Originally posted by EternityShard
He's been called a fool (or similar) a number of times on the public boards. I've seen it. Dan didn't get upset until he was insulted.

How hurt and upset would you be if someone insulted the very thing you've poured your heart and soul into for a long time? Joeteller apparently takes it for granted that Dan bends over backwards to make changes and fix bugs, at *customer* request. Such that when Dan isn't willing to make a small change, he's suddenly seen as a heartless cur with no sense of customer obligation.

Bah. I am firmly behind dan on this matter.

Shows you what happens when I am waiting on my merchandice, I get into these things...ohh well

I would be ticked, if I had to (while at my store) I would ask my partner to take the register while I went in the back room and cooled off, or reign my emotions in until the troubled customer had left. AGAIN note, I think Dan has everyright to be mad, I just think he should not take it out on difficult customers.

I (as usual in these things) agree with Dan's dessision (not to make the program capable of doing the request), I DO NOT agree with the way he chose to express his desision when the customer became difficult.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by EternityShard
How hurt and upset would you be if someone insulted the very thing you've poured your heart and soul into for a long time? Joeteller apparently takes it for granted that Dan bends over backwards to make changes and fix bugs, at *customer* request. Such that when Dan isn't willing to make a small change, he's suddenly seen as a heartless cur with no sense of customer obligation.

Bah. I am firmly behind dan on this matter.

It's a programmer thing... they wouldn't understand (j/king):D

[ogier300]

This is such a weird thread. One guy is asking the program to be changed to accomodate his personal need. So far, in this thread, he's the only one asking for this. Nearly everyone else here is either posting a way for him to do it with the existing program, busting Dan's balls, or supporting Dan.

Just plain weird.

[MisterVimes]

Oh... and as far as Dan's Customer service skills and fulfilling the customer's needs read this thread:
Customer Service 101... with Dan (http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=2087#post2087)

[Derek Hiemforth]

I shouldn't get into this at all, probably, but I just wanted to make one quick point...

The fact that something doesn't work exactly the way you envisioned it would is a far cry from it not working at all.

So Hero Designer doesn't have a built-in checkbox or something to allow you to add a homegrown Skill Enhancer. That doesn't mean that you can't use it to accomplish exactly the same thing... it just means you have to do it differently than you originally expected you would. Rather than using the normal Skill Enhancer method, you have to add the homegrown Skill Enhancer as a Custom Skill, and simulate its effects with -1 Adders on the related Skills.

This is not quite as user-friendly as the built-in Enhancers, but that's normal. Virtually every piece of software in existence is easier to use when dealing only with cookie-cutter functions than it is when dealing with user-customized stuff.

I just can't imagine why anyone would view this as a make-or-break issue. :confused:

- Derek

[archermoo]

Just throwing my hat in as supporting Dan. People that show others no respect have no right to expect to be shown respect in return. The rant of "since you won't customize HD for me personally, I'll never buy anything from HERO again" is childish and insulting. Unfortunatly there are enough people in the world that will oil that squeaky wheel that this type of whining is encouraged. Buying a product does not grant you the right to be abusive or rude to employees of the company from which you purchased it. Statements such as "Thats annoying and definitely a feature I want improved on." show a lack of respect for the person you are talking to. That isn't a request for a feature, that is a demand.

[joeteller]

Didn't read my original post, or the follow ups I made.

I asked Dan how to do X. When he said it wasn't possible, I asked if there was a workaround.

I then was called a fool.

Dan doesn't know me. Doesn't know who I am, what I do, how long I've been gaming, what level of programming skill I may or may not have, how long I've been gaming, or anything else.

And all I know about Dan is what I see here. I still have NOT called Dan a fool. I have said his customer relations skills need work. I have said that his words, attitude and statements are making me heavily re-assess continuing to support the product or to use his software and whether I will recommend either to anyone in my gaming group, or all the various places I deal with other gamers.

I also said that as a marketing thing, limiting the software flexibility and customization was a bad idea, and it went against the very advertising (which I quoted from the website) that the product was being sold under. He seems to think that the customization and flexibility is NOT in the specs for the software, they were extra bells and whistles he put in. He and his employer/contractor seem to have a difference of opinion based on the advertising.

None of this is my problem, I'm the customer. It may be the 'modern' concept that the customer only matters until you have their Ca$h but thats not the way I was trained on how to do customer relations when I used work in customer service. You work with the customer, you help them to find a satisfactory method of solving their problem or you apologize for the inadequacy/limitation and move on politely. Polite is the important word.

If Dan had said you need to alter the Template, here's how, or even 'Look at Page # of the manual on how you can alter the Template to do this' it would have been a satisfactory response.

I Offer thanks to those who have offered to help, but I will deal with the problem on my own at this point, if I bother to continue to use the product or the product line at all.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by joeteller
Didn't read my original post, or the follow ups I made.

I asked Dan how to do X. When he said it wasn't possible, I asked if there was a workaround.

I then was called a fool.


No, you didn't. You asked how to do X. When he said it wasn't possible and gave you a workaround, you ordered him to fix it and asked how to do the workaround. He responded that he was probably not going to change things, and told you where to find the instructions on how to edit templates. At which point you broke off into a rant on how bad his customer support was, and effectively said that you wouldn't buy any more HERO products. Even then, he didn't call you a fool. The exact quote was "If you honestly think that I have no interest in helping out the customers of HD, then you're a fool." And I concur. There are MANY examples of Dan bending over backwards to provide support and modifications to the program for people. Several in just the short time that these boards have been back up.

When telling others to get their facts straight you should make sure that your own are straight first.

(edited for typos)

[EternityShard]

Leave well-enough alone? Not me...

joeteller
If Dan had said you need to alter the Template, here's how, or even 'Look at Page # of the manual on how you can alter the Template to do this' it would have been a satisfactory response.


Hmm. Geez. I seem to recall him doing just that. Maybe without the page number, but he did give you an answer. One which other users have expounded upon, in exactly the same way you complain about not being possible.

Let's take a look...

Joeteller, you asked the question:
joeteller
How do I add specialized Custom Skill Enhancers? I find nothing in the docs to do this and can find no simple way to do it thru playing with the program.

And Dan responded:
dsimon
You don't.

About all you can do is edit the ones that are there and edit the types/abilities that they affect.

Sounds like an answer to me.

But, Joeteller, you returned with:
joeteller
Thats annoying and definitely a feature I want improved on. It makes converting a specific setting of mine to Hero nearly impossible.

Ok how do I edit the existings ones then?

"That's annoying...", oh good. That is the perfect way to convince someone that you are worth their time. I would've ignored you at this point, but Dan kindly replied.

He said:
dsimon
It's probably a feature that will not be coming. I have no plans to add it at this point. HD is meant to follow/simulate the rules of the HERO System. The HERO System is very specific about what Skill Enhancers are, what they affect, and which ones are available.

If you want to edit any of them, you'll need to edit the template. Follow the instructions for editing templates contained in the documentation.

Again, no specific page numbers, but he told you exactly how to do what you were looking for, given the current functionality of the program.

Ah, but Joeteller, you again rebutted:
joeteller
...I'm the first person in my gaming club to buy the program, and if it doesn't allow adaption to house rules, I'll probably be the last....

"Change it or I won't buy from you again!"

Again, not the friendly tone one would think would accompany a request for modification.

Then later in the same post:
joeteller
...Oh well. I've tried to help the hero revival. I guess there's no real interest in meeting customer needs but a desire for a 'one true way' on how things will be done. I'm sure you folks will do fine without our money....


See, that's the rub.

"no real interest in meeting customer needs"??

Herodesigner is by far the most customizeable and flexible game product I've ever seen. On top of that, Dan is on these boards every day answering questions, suggestions workarounds, and fixing bugs. All without charging you $5.95 per minute. Name another software company that does that.

It wasn't until after that comment that Dan got mad. He's much more tolerant than I'd have been.

[joeteller]

Originally posted by archermoo
No, you didn't. You asked how to do X. When he said it wasn't possible and gave you a workaround, you ordered him to fix it and asked how to do the workaround. He responded that he was probably not going to change things, and told you where to find the instructions on how to edit templates. At which point you broke off into a rant on how bad is customer support was, and effectively said that you wouldn't buy any more HERO products. Even then, he didn't call you a fool. The exact quote was "If you honestly think that I have no interest in helping out the customers of HD, then you're a fool." And I concur. There are MANY examples of Dan bending over backwards to provide support and modifications to the program for people. Several in just the short time that these boards have been back up.

When telling others to get their facts straight you should make sure that your own are straight first.

And, as many others on this thread has taken it, he did call me a fool for feeling he was not being logical about customer relations, product support, flexibility & customization. Enough people read it just the same way as I do. Get your facts straight.

He did not answer the problem he simply said I'd need to redesign the template (reprogramming it) and I should follow the docs, without reference to where in the code to find it or the relevant code involved. RTFM is not a valid help desk response in most good software companies, and certainly not a way to get a happy customer.

When I bought the product, and AS THEY ADVERTISE RIGHT NOW ON THE WEBSITE, it was advertised as being Flexible and Customizable in many many ways.

If the product is not Flexible and Customizable without hacking Code, then it is NOT FLEXIBLE AND CUSTOMIZABLE to the majority of the population.

If I wanted to program stuff, I'd go back to school again and learn modern programming and design my own (my programming training is from the old-school days of Fortran and Cobol and Dartmouth Basic, not the current crop of language stuff).

I wanted to buy a program and use it to do what I needed to do.

If a program fails to do what I need, and I can't get it to do what I ask, then I tell folks it doesn't do what I need. As I said EVERY HERO GM I know of in this area has house rules that would require a customizable program. They will want to know if it requires this sort of thing. They will be told.

If I pay out money, I get the right to criticize what I don't like about a product, or tell folks what I do like about the product. Its a basic right of a customer. There are some good things about the software, I'm now trying to decide if they outweigh the problems and the poor customer relations the software support person is giving me.

Customer Relations 101 : The Customer Is Always Right. Always be Polite to the Customer.

This is not McDonalds or Burger King. This is not Microsoft. In Gaming if you alienate your customer base you lose their future funds. We can go elsewhere and will if not treated well.

Either you've never managed a business or worked in one where customer service was essential, or you didn't learn the basics for such.

You're not helping his case.

[EternityShard]

Originally posted by joeteller

When I bought the product, and AS THEY ADVERTISE RIGHT NOW ON THE WEBSITE, it was advertised as being Flexible and Customizable in many many ways.


First axiom of application and user interface design:
The more user-friendly you make a program, the less flexibility you will be able to give it.

The reverse is equally true.

It would be a momumental task to give both a program that gave every person who could possibly use it every option they could want *AND* had a simple user interface.

You say you were a programmer back in the day, then you should understand this. Every allowance Dan makes for changes in the app makes it harder and harder to keep other things simple and easy. The fact that you could make the change at all speaks volumes about the power of this software, and flatly refutes your claim that it supports only 'one true way' to handle things.

Sure, using the program to do the things the way they were intended is going to be easier than not doing things in the 'standard' way. Stop looking at how difficult or easy it is to break from the 'one true way', and realize that the fact that they have given you a path at all to do so is a blessing.

[archermoo]

I have my facts straight. He didn't call you a fool. I will again provide his exact quote, since you seem to keep missing it. "If you honestly think that I have no interest in helping out the customers of HD, then you're a fool." There are MANY examples of his providing support and program modifications to people that have asked. So I agree that if you honestly think that he has no interest in doing so, in the face of the fact that he has done so repeatedly in the past, you are indeed a fool. Again I have my facts straight. What part of the above quoted sentance confused you?

He didn't say you needed to redesign the template. He said you needed to edit the template, and gave you the location of the instructions for doing so when you asked. Editing a template does not require "hacking Code", it requires editing an XML document. The code for HD was written in Java, and end users don't have access to it. And beside that you have been provided with numerous ways to provide the modification you are looking for without even having to edit the XML document.

And yes, buying a product gives you the right to criticize it, or to laud it. It does not, however, purchase the right to be rude and abusive to the employees of the company that sold it to you. And no, the customer isn't always right. Quite often they are wrong. And yes, you should be polite to customers, but only so long as they are polite to you. No one has the right to expect to be treated well when they treat others poorly.

And I don't expect anything anyone says to help Dan's case with you. You were rude and insulting to Dan enough times that he finally responded in kind to you. At which point you got insulted. How dare someone treat you in the manner you are treating them. :rolleyes:

[Simon]

Joe, you make my point more eloquently than I ever could.

About all that I can say to follow up on that is this: If you don't like my "customer support", then don't come into this forum. I post to this forum almost exclusively (I simply don't have time to read much of the others), so you should be pretty safe elsewhere.

If the rest of the folks in your group are of similar mind/attitude to you, I would suggest that they <b>not</b> buy Hero Designer. They won't be happy. Let them learn from your mistake.

For the rest of the folks out there: thanks for the support! I will continue to develop and expand upon HD every chance that I get. I'm having a blast with it and truly want to make it everything that it can be -- <b>within the concept/scope of the application as I designed it</b>. This, evidently, rubs some folks the wrong way, as they feel that they should have a programmer at their beck and call because they dropped $40 on an application. Oh well. I love getting feedback on the application and am happy to accomodate any request that fits in with the overall concept of the app as we move forward, so keep the requests coming!

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by joeteller
Customer Relations 101 : The Customer Is Always Right. Always be Polite to the Customer.

This is not McDonalds or Burger King. This is not Microsoft. In Gaming if you alienate your customer base you lose their future funds. We can go elsewhere and will if not treated well.

Either you've never managed a business or worked in one where customer service was essential, or you didn't learn the basics for such.

Wellllllllllllll. I have owned a business and managed a few as well and you forgot Customer Relations 102 : We have the right to refuse service.

You were repeatedly rude and when you got it thrown back at you, you got pissy.

If it was a store, I'd have tossed you out.

[nblade]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
Wellllllllllllll. I have owned a business and managed a few as well and you forgot Customer Relations 102 : We have the right to refuse service.

You were repeatedly rude and when you got it thrown back at you, you got pissy.

If it was a store, I'd have tossed you out.

Actually this leads into my favorite business rule, you can't make 100% of your customers happy. It just doesn't happen. Sometimes, you have to "FIRE" a customer, because there is no other way.

[ogier300]

Archermoo:
I have my facts straight. He didn't call you a fool. I will again provide his exact quote, since you seem to keep missing it. "If you honestly think that I have no interest in helping out the customers of HD, then you're a fool." There are MANY examples of his providing support and program modifications to people that have asked.

I think what you're missing here is that joeteller actually does honestly think Dan has no interest in helping out the customers of HD, and thus believes Dan called him a fool.

Once you realize that, I think the rest of this very weird thread becomes somewhat understandable.

[joeteller]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
Wellllllllllllll. I have owned a business and managed a few as well and you forgot Customer Relations 102 : We have the right to refuse service.

You were repeatedly rude and when you got it thrown back at you, you got pissy.

If it was a store, I'd have tossed you out.

Sorry but they already took the money. And that makes the difference.

I never refused service when I was managing a business to anyone. Refusal of service without appropriate reasons (such as violence, intoxication, criminal record, threat of physical violence, damaging store property etc.) can get you the loss of your license to operate your business in many fields in many states.

And you certainly can't take their money and then do such. In most states that would get you a nice law suit, loss of license, possible criminal action, etc.

I have no interest in playing legal games over state lines, and the software business has been for years a 'buyer beware' situation. I'll depart and not be doing business with them anymore.

Joe

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by nblade
Actually this leads into my favorite business rule, you can't make 100% of your customers happy. It just doesn't happen. Sometimes, you have to "FIRE" a customer, because there is no other way.

Thank you... exactly right

[MisterVimes]

Your statment is only partially correct. Since the product performs as presented, there's no lemon law on this one.

[JmOz]

There are two types of support for a product, there is (for lack of better names) customer support, and product support.

If I was to do a report card on Dan in these two catagories he would get the following (with notes) grades, first letter is the grade, the second letter is effort

Product support: A /A+: Product support is how quick bugs get fixed, new and reasonable features are added, how well customer feedback is used to update a product. He is short of an A+ by the smalledst margin, and is probably me projecting my issues with how Damage Shield. Megascale and charges on to him...

Customer Support: D/F: I do not give him an F do to the simple fact that he does not normaly turn venomous until the second or third comment comment, but even on his first comments he is usualy short and to the point, that can seem rude (Where I do not think it is intended to be at this point), however after he gets vexed he starts lashing out. When confronted his general attitude is "I don't care, I'm not changing", thus the effort grade.

See I think this is one of the issues people are not understanding, they see all the hard work he does (And he is very hard working, and he does do a good job, and I trust him to make a good product) and says how dare anyone get upset on how he treats them, after all they had it coming (and admitingly to a degree they do, but this does not mean dan SHOULD give it to them). While others say how can he be so rude, does he not realise that this will alienate customers (and it WILL alienate customers). When this happens they are talking about two distinct types of customer service, and one dan does excel at, the other he needs help with.

Something for all to consider, after reading this over I found the first Paragraph to be insulting (and with no honest critique involved) so I deleted it...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by ogier300
I think what you're missing here is that joeteller actually does honestly think Dan has no interest in helping out the customers of HD, and thus believes Dan called him a fool.
Given that Joe has posted two threads in this forum, and that Dan had responded to each of them within two minutes of their posting, makes it easy to see why Dan would come to that conclusion, IMO. What's he supposed to do? Answer questions before they're asked? ;)

I can see it now... Psychic Dan, the Software Man! :D

- Derek

[Monolith]

Originally posted by JmOz
See I think this is one of the issues people are not understanding, they see all the hard work he does (And he is very hard working, and he does do a good job, and I trust him to make a good product) and says how dare anyone get upset on how he treats them, after all they had it coming (and admitingly to a degree they do, but this does not mean dan SHOULD give it to them). While others say how can he be so rude, does he not realise that this will alienate customers (and it WILL alienate customers). When this happens they are talking about two distinct types of customer service, and one dan does excel at, the other he needs help with.
What does all of that have to do with the fact that Joe wants the program to do something it was not designed to do?

The program Joe bought was designed to operate using the HERO System rules. What Joe wants is a program that operates using JOE System Rules. To do that he must alter the template himself. Dan said this at the beginning of this whole fiasco. Joe does not want to do the work himself; he wants Dan to do it for him. I am sure that if Joe wants to slip Dan a couple of hundred dollars Dan will be happy to do it for him. If not, Joe should just do it himself.

Dan is not our personal programmer. He is not at our beck and call. Joe does not seem to understand that, or maybe he is too lazy or childish to understand that (the fact that he posted a condemnation directed to Steve on the Hero List instead of sending it privately to Steve indicates childish to me).

Dan's customer service issues have nothing to do with the fact that Joe wants Dan to customize the software to do something it was not designed to do; and Joe is throwing a temper tantrum because Dan will not do it.

Grow up Joe. You have been given plenty of alternatives on how to do what you want done. I even offered to do one of them for you. If you cannot deal with that, then that is your problem, not Hero Games'.

[Crimson-Hawk]

Originally posted by ogier300
This is such a weird thread. One guy is asking the program to be changed to accomodate his personal need. So far, in this thread, he's the only one asking for this. Nearly everyone else here is either posting a way for him to do it with the existing program, busting Dan's balls, or supporting Dan.

Just plain weird.

Amen, Ogier, amen!

JmOz: Dude, buddy, pal! I love you like a brother, really! Okay, maybe that's TMI, but seriously. Continuously making comments about Dan's social skills isn't going to change him, it's only going to piss him off. Let up a little, will ya?

Dan: You've made a great program. Don't let the nay-sayers get to you so bad. This guy Joe has said his say. You and everyone else on this thread have failed to sway him and in fact have moved to increase his ire. There's nothing else you can do. Let him go.

Joe Teller: Dude, while I wish I could say I feel your pain, this whole thread has touched off my Social Phobia Disorder in the worst possible way. You did go through the "proper channels" for support; you came to the HD Support Thread here at the Hero Games website. If Dan has failed to meet your demands to your satisfaction, the next step of the "proper channels" is to speak to Darren Watts directly.

Everyone Else: Mr. Vimes, Monolith, Archermoo, EternityShard... despite the exceptional level of maturity I've seen in your contributions to this thread, I fear your efforts have been wasted to feeding a roaring flame. And this is never good. And, yes, I am just as guilty now that I've posted this.

Ben Seeman: I'd ask you to lock this thread so that this nonsense will cease... but that would be unforgivably pissy on my part. So just ignore me. :D

Please, people! Can't we all just get along? Please? ;)

[archermoo]

Originally posted by JmOz
See I think this is one of the issues people are not understanding, they see all the hard work he does (And he is very hard working, and he does do a good job, and I trust him to make a good product) and says how dare anyone get upset on how he treats them, after all they had it coming (and admitingly to a degree they do, but this does not mean dan SHOULD give it to them). While others say how can he be so rude, does he not realise that this will alienate customers (and it WILL alienate customers). When this happens they are talking about two distinct types of customer service, and one dan does excel at, the other he needs help with.

But I don't thing that what Joe was refering to was the second type you refer to. He gave Dan an earful of how poor his customer support was before Dan was anything but polite. He seems to have been reacting to Dan's response that "It's probably a feature that will not be coming. I have no plans to add it at this point." At this point, his flame seems to have been directed at Dan's unwillingness to customize the program just for him. Granted, after Dan posted "If you honestly think that I have no interest in helping out the customers of HD, then you're a fool." he also started b!tching about Dan's customer interaction. But his first flame, and the one that set off Dan's response, was about how Dan not only isn't supporting the product, but since he can't apply his house rules within the GUI that the product hasn't even been provided as claimed.

[lemming]

Phew! Some of the fallout from this thread drifted by me elsewhere so I had to go put on my LF: Flames and check this out.

IMO, Joe is a bit out of line. He asked for a feature that is not part of the rules. I think it would be a nice addition to be able to add that flexibility, but I'm guessing this isn't feasible right now. I think Joe could of dropped it at that point.

Dan: He's definitly a developer. Responds fast to problems, but if it's not something that is an actual mistake or makes sense and fairly easy to add, is rather blunt about saying it's not feasible.

I think it would be helpful to have a filter between Dan and the public, but at the size of Hero, that's not feasible. Dan is doing an awesome job of killing bugs when they're reported.

He's certainly not a customer support trained person (or he was and got burned out. :eek: )
However, I've got no problem with how he's handling this. Problems are fixed and occasional enhancements are done. It's one of the best 1.x products I've seen.

Ignore this: I've been involved in SW Dev, QA, and Customer Support for 15 years. We've got it pretty good.

[JmOz]

Originally posted by archermoo
But I don't thing that what Joe was refering to was the second type you refer to. He gave Dan an earful of how poor his customer support was before Dan was anything but polite. He seems to have been reacting to Dan's response that "It's probably a feature that will not be coming. I have no plans to add it at this point." At this point, his flame seems to have been directed at Dan's unwillingness to customize the program just for him. Granted, after Dan posted "If you honestly think that I have no interest in helping out the customers of HD, then you're a fool." he also started b!tching about Dan's customer interaction. But his first flame, and the one that set off Dan's response, was about how Dan not only isn't supporting the product, but since he can't apply his house rules within the GUI that the product hasn't even been provided as claimed.

I agree with what you say there, And I did not get involved in this discusion until after, as you put it, Dan started B!tching. I think the request was unreasonable to begin with (well not unresinable to ask, but to demand it). And once again, like I said, dan has done a great job.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by JmOz
I agree with what you say there, And I did not get involved in this discusion until after, as you put it, Dan started B!tching. I think the request was unreasonable to begin with (well not unresinable to ask, but to demand it). And once again, like I said, dan has done a great job.

Somewhat minor, but I'll point out that I never said anything about Dan b!tching. I mentioned Joe b!tching. Dan simply treated Joe in the same manner Joe was treating him. A perfectly reasonable thing to do, in my opinion.

And for the record, I agree that his initial request, had it been made as a request rather than as a demand, would have been perfectly reasonable. Just as Dan's response that he was not currently planning on adding any such feature was perfectly reasonable. Even in the face of Joe's actual posted demand (not request): "Thats annoying and definitely a feature I want improved on.", Dan still had what I feel is a perfectly reasonable response.

In any case, we'd probably be best to take Crimson=-Hawk's advice and just let it drop...

[JmOz]

agreed

[MisterVimes]

*SNIFF*
I need a hug:D

[Chaosliege]

Man, you guys have been busy. when I left for work this morning, this thread was only 2 pages. Now it's 4. This thread would do my namesake proud :D

[Chris Goodwin]

Regardless of who is right or wrong, Dan isn't representing Hero Games very well (and, like it or not, that's how he's seen). And, whether it's $4, $40, or $40,000, people have a right to feel good about the purchases they've made.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by archer
Regardless of who is right or wrong, Dan isn't representing Hero Games very well (and, like it or not, that's how he's seen). And, whether it's $4, $40, or $40,000, people have a right to feel good about the purchases they've made.
True, but there were really two issues here:

#1: I am not happy that the program does not allow for complete customization. Change that so that it is.

#2: I am not happy with Dan, so I will never buy another Hero Games product again.

In answer to #1, Joe was given several alternatives, and rejected them all because it was not what HE wanted. In answer to #2, Joe was acting like a child: If it's not my way, and because you are not complying with my every need, I will never buy another Hero Games product ever!

I will bet you $50.00 he buys at least 3 this year. :)

And besides that, didn't you just post in the Hero List that you were never coming or posting to these boards again? :)

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Monolith
True, but there were really two issues here:

#1: I am not happy that the program does not allow for complete customization. Change that so that it is.

#2: I am not happy with Dan, so I will never buy another Hero Games product again.

In answer to #1, Joe was given several alternatives, and rejected them all because it was not what HE wanted. In answer to #2, Joe was acting like a child: If it's not my way, and because you are not complying with my every need, I will never buy another Hero Games product ever!


In both cases, the key words were "I'm not happy." Smart companies speak to that. When people go around on public fora posting negative things about companies' customer service, the smart companies try to find out why and fix it.



And besides that, didn't you just post in the Hero List that you were never coming or posting to these boards again? :)

No such thing. Where did you get that idea? If it was my "last word" posting, that's a frequent shorthand for "I've taken up enough of everyone's time with this borderline off-topic posting; any further responses will be in private e-mail."

[Monolith]

Originally posted by archer
No such thing. Where did you get that idea? If it was my "last word" posting, that's a frequent shorthand for "I've taken up enough of everyone's time with this borderline off-topic posting; any further responses will be in private e-mail."
Is this you?
Chris Goodwin, Hero List:
"I've also decided that I'm not going to post to threads in the HD board any longer (unless it's workarounds for things Dan says are against the rules and hence unsupported), nor read any of them except for the update postings. I don't need the aggravation."
If that is not you, I'm sorry I insinuated that it was, but if it is you, am I misinterpreting that quote?

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Monolith
Is this you?

If that is not you, I'm sorry I insinuated that it was, but if it is you, am I misinterpreting that quote?

Ahhh. That was me. I thought you'd somehow inferred that I was never posting to a Hero Games discussion board again; HD = HeroDesigner. I thought I was stating more of a recent tendency than a blanket policy, and in any case, reserve the right to change my mind. :)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by archer
Ahhh. That was me. I thought you'd somehow inferred that I was never posting to a Hero Games discussion board again; HD = HeroDesigner. I thought I was stating more of a recent tendency than a blanket policy, and in any case, reserve the right to change my mind. :)
Fair enough. I'm glad you did. :) We can always use another keen mind in these forums.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by archer
In both cases, the key words were "I'm not happy." Smart companies speak to that. When people go around on public fora posting negative things about companies' customer service, the smart companies try to find out why and fix it.

They at least find out why. In this case the why seems to have been that HD doesn't have his custom rules in it, and when he ordered Dan to "fix" it, Dan politely told him that he had no current plans to do so. The guy seemed to find that an unacceptable answer, and proceded to flame Dan personally.

I agree that smart companies should fix things like this. The way to fix things when you have an obnoxious customer who is not satisfied unless he is able to be preemptory and rude to people is to invite them to no longer do buisness with you.

[Enforcer84]

I work in customer service and I have often felt the wrath of the angry person. Its inevitable. Dan has it worse than I becasue deep down I know they are not mad at me beyond me being the messanger, they are upset with the product I represent. Dan on the other hand is the guy who makes the product that they are complaining to him about. The attacks seem alot more personal. I have seen him respond in kind but only when being provoked.

The only time I have seen Dan really ticked was when Karinsdad was thrashing HD before he'd even gotten the beta out. Boy that was a flame war. Most of the "regulars" here seem to have really good people skills and deal with eachother in a congenial manner. Its the guys and girls whose names I don't recognize that often get the flame going. I find that odd.

And Chris is lucky he never provoked me when he was my customer so he never saw the ANGRY CHAD. It would have made him quiver with fear I tell you....:D

[tiger]

Dan has always been helpful to me. I added a new disadvantage to my campaigns and he explain how to do it.

While I have to change the templets with each update, I'm not gonna expect him to change his program to make it easier on me. I'll simply do the necessary work each time, big deal takes a whole 2-3 minutes.

[tiger]

Ok at the risk of being a b*tthead. I decide to go in and see if I could at a enhancer to a templete.

Dan is the number of enhancers listed the max that the program will allow. I modified a templete but it didn't show up when I tried it out. I wasn't able to locate anything in the manuel, It's there I'm sure but I'm blind today :)

[Simon]

The enhancers that are listed are the only ones that the program recognizes. You can edit the template to change any of the existing ones (changing the name, what they affect, the cost savings, etc.), but you cannot add in new ones in that way.

[tiger]

OK..That explains it then, Tanks

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by archermoo
They at least find out why. In this case the why seems to have been that HD doesn't have his custom rules in it, and when he ordered Dan to "fix" it, Dan politely told him that he had no current plans to do so. The guy seemed to find that an unacceptable answer, and proceded to flame Dan personally.

Edit: Dan didn't make any effort to keep the customer happy. It takes some effort, so I'm not going to blame Dan for going out of his way to piss Joe off, but from the word go Dan seemed not to care whether he wanted to keep Joe as a customer. Other customers (me, among others) see this and begin wondering whether we want to keep giving Dan's company money.


I agree that smart companies should fix things like this. The way to fix things when you have an obnoxious customer who is not satisfied unless he is able to be preemptory and rude to people is to invite them to no longer do buisness with you.

I've never worked for a company that would have been satisfied with inviting customers to no longer do business with it. Pretend I'm a business. People have money and want to give it to me. I want them to give me their money. I'm going to do what I can to keep them giving me money. If I have a customer going around posting negative stuff on public fora (edit: or, especially, makes the effort to send the CEO a letter) about my customer service department, I'm going to find out who in that department pissed them off, have a talk with that person, and make some kind of effort to get my customer happy enough to give me more money in the future. If I've made that effort and he's still going away mad, then at least I've made the effort, and he's not going away because the guys who work for me are jerks.

You can make a customer happy without giving him what he wants. I've done it, more than a few times. There's a fine art to it. I'm not saying Dan has to give everyone what they want, but he could sure say no in a nicer way, and leave people feeling happy in spite of it. I'm not going to try to speak for Joe, but this is my problem with Dan.

(Chad: :D )