Harbinger Poll

[Eosin]

Just curious what the hard numbers will show about Dark Champions darkest night.

[Killer Shrike]

Harbinger of Justice should be like unto a dark god that stalks the night streets dispensing summary "justice" upon the filthy criminal element that belleaguer the formerly great municipality that is Hudson.

[Eosin]

I think I want to marry you KS. :love:

[lemming]

Hmm. So far three for three. Though what do you expect at 1am?

[Vondy]

I think he's a cool character with the potential to be an "iconic," but I also think he needs to be toned down a touch. Removing the insta-gun pool will go a long way towards doing that. I also thought his DX + CSL + Lightning Reflexes ratio was off the charts - but that's as much a matter of individual campaign standards and interpretation as anything (I could build batman on 500 or 1000 points (without bases and vehicles), depending on the style of play).

I don't think multiple versions of him are necessary (the version of him in the book should be the official version), but I would like to see notes on incorporating him into more than one interpretive style of play (i.e. campaign standards). For instance: "if harbringer is too powerful for your campaign remove X, Y, and Z..." or "if harbringer is a total wuss by your campaign standards you tack this obsene insta-nuke pool onto him..."

[Edsel]

I agree with Von D-Man about the instant gun pool. I like Harbinger. In my last DC campaign he was the most powerful normal in the campaign. He should have the ability and skill to back-up his reputation. I prefer him to be a normal with no super-powers per se, but very skilled. So he has no instant gun pool, but he is strong and wears a bullet-proof trench coat in which he can carry an amazing arsenal. He doesn't have a supernatural power to vanish but he has the power "vanishing teleport" to represent his amazing, but not supernatural, ability to just disappear into the night.

That sort of thing.

[Metaphysician]

Agreed. Ditch the teleporting gun pool, replace with gadget/weapon pool. Tone done some of the more obscene stat combinations, but replace with an equal value of superskills.

And since he's appearing in Hidson City, not Dark Champions, the example character complaint is totally moot.

[Killer Shrike]

I think I want to marry you KS. :love:
Hey now, let's keep it platonic and hetero. ;)

[OddHat]

Use him as an iconic character, with tons of Super-Skills and the best real-world equipment available, including a kick-ass base and vehicles. Use him as an example of the toughest a DC character can possibly be. Then, give a 350 point write-up showing how he began.

[KA.]

Hey now, let's keep it platonic and hetero. ;)
Actually, if you do a little reading about Plato, you will find that those two concepts are mutually exclusive. :D

KA.

[Killer Shrike]

Actually, if you do a little reading about Plato, you will find that those two concepts are mutually exclusive. :D

KA.
Ah, but keep in mind that the term 'platonic' was not coined by Plato himself. It was attributed many centuries later by those unaware of Plato's personal sexual preference. The obsession over what historical figures were actually gay is a fairly modern one after all.

Already in use to describe the works of Plato, "platonic" was later used by Marsilio Ficino, a Renaissance-era Plato revivalist of sorts, to mean a relationship with an intellectual and/or spiritual base.

In the denotative Platonic has two meanings:

1. Of or pertaining to Plato, or his philosophy, school, or opinions
2. Pure, passionless; nonsexual; philosophical.

In this particular case I was using the word in it's second form.

[Sociotard]

Boy, this thread is frustrating for those of us who never owned anything 4th ed. harbringer? Oh, the guy on the DC cover? I still haven't bought that one.

I did like the idea of showing how he is now along with a "Harbinger: Year One" writeup

[KA.]

Ah, but keep in mind that the term 'platonic' was not coined by Plato himself. It was attributed many centuries later by those unaware of Plato's personal sexual preference. The obsession over what historical figures were actually gay is a fairly modern one after all.

Already in use to describe the works of Plato, "platonic" was later used by Marsilio Ficino, a Renaissance-era Plato revivalist of sorts, to mean a relationship with an intellectual and/or spiritual base.

In the denotative Platonic has two meanings:

1. Of or pertaining to Plato, or his philosophy, school, or opinions
2. Pure, passionless; nonsexual; philosophical.

In this particular case I was using the word in it's second form.

I know. I was just kidding! ;)

This just reminded me of something I read in National Lampoon years ago.
In the letters section, they would have fake letters, often from historical figures. There was one from Plato that said, based on what he and his friends did, that if a girl told you she wanted a "Platonic" relationship, it meant that she wanted . . .

Well, you get the idea.

Anyway, your post just reminded me of that.

No offense intended.:)

KA.

[Worldmaker]

I think the HoJ is a joke. A bad joke. A bad joke where the punchline about players and point-mongering.

[Metaphysician]

So, you aren't supposed to actually spend your accumulated XP??

[Worldmaker]

So, you aren't supposed to actually spend your accumulated XP??


Metaphysician, meet Straw Man. Straw Man, mean your creator, Metaphysician.

The construction of Harbinger of Justice is so abusive and broken I can only surmise that the version we saw is Steve's "dream version", and not the version that was actually allowed in play.

[Killer Shrike]

I know. I was just kidding! ;)

This just reminded me of something I read in National Lampoon years ago.
In the letters section, they would have fake letters, often from historical figures. There was one from Plato that said, based on what he and his friends did, that if a girl told you she wanted a "Platonic" relationship, it meant that she wanted . . .

Well, you get the idea.

Anyway, your post just reminded me of that.

No offense intended.:)

KA.No offense taken.

[gregghelmberger]

I'm going to be running a costumed vigilante game set in Hudson City, and I'm going to take as my starting point that HoJ was assassinated a few weeks before the start of play by element or elements unknown, possibly with the collusion of certain members of the police department. Now all hell has broken loose, with criminals of all sorts flocking to Hudson City to take advantage of the vigilante vacuum.

Basically, my issue with HoJ is that he's so darned uber that he renders the PCs irrelevant -- anything that's interesting or important, Harbinger will poke his nose into it and completely overshadow anything the PCs could do. This is supposed to be the PCs story, and therefore Harbinger must die.

[Champsguy]

Harbinger is a fine character, though I don't like the cosmic power pool. I have no problem with a VPP for having lots of guns/gadgets, or setting up the environment (Harbinger's got weapon caches all over the city--if he drops one gun, he reaches under a trashcan lid where he's got another conveniently hidden). I have a problem with him having dimensional teleporters.

I also don't like the way he was constructed. He doesn't have enough defense, and his Dex is way too high (30 Dex, +10 Dex for combat, + lightning reflexes). I have no problem with the 30 Dex, but a 40 plus LR? I guess he needs that when he goes to take down Andre Panthanatos, but still...

His power pool does need to be that large, however, because lots of guns are going to be very high active points, regardless of their effectiveness.

[Dean Edgell]

It is probably far too late to enter this conversation or to influence Steve's plans, but I truly dislike the Harbinger of Justice - or at least I dislike his stats/skills/point totals.

In any game which he exists he is bound to be more important than the PCs - unless (as would be quite reasonable) the PCs are dedicated to hunting him down and bringing him to justice. But if the Harbinger is to be a "hero", then he is almost certain to be better than the PC heroes are at practically everything. He is a walking example of the first two "How to Ruin your Campaign" rules from 4th edition.

Just because Steve played the character and earned xp, doesn't mean that it is a good character for others to bring into their campaign as an NPC. Nor, given the previous huge point costs, is he a good character for players and GMs setting up a campaign to emulate. Introducing Harbinger into any campaign not built on his scale, would require extraordinary GM skill, to avoid problems.

So, I think Steve should either ditch him (and keep the fond memories) or change him so that he can be used in the typical campaign without overshadowing typical PCs, or refit him to be an antagonist - the Dr. Destroyer of the DC universe.

For what it is worth.

[tgrandjean]

It's aready moot but, I personally would like a radically revised Harbringer.
Drop the superhuman stats and the teleporting gun pool.
Tone down the skill list.
Toss in a couple of super-skills.
Done.
A somewhat interesting Punisher clone.

[Metaphysician]

So, do you guys not think there is going to be anyone in the setting who has more skill, more experience, and more capability than your players, if only by virtue of having 10+ years of active adventuring??

[nexus]

The big issue is that most Dark Champions campaigns take place in a single city. Having someone like the Harbinger around seriously runs the risk of the overshadowing the PCs. With his skills, contacts and ability if you want to be logical anything big or important that happens in the city would involve him. And that isn't terribly fun for the PCs. He would become the "Superman" of the campaign and always have to be off on a mission or something before the PCs would be the actual stars. Now if the Harbinger existed in another city, or retired or something along those lines I think he would be more acceptable.

[KA.]

I can see some justification for the Harbinger in a campaign.

1) He is only one (1) human being after all. He can't be everywhere. He can't do everything. Which leaves plenty of room for the PC's to operate. It is like saying that if a police force had one really great detective in Homicide, that there would be no room for other homicide detectives to flourish. The truth is that no one person can handle that kind of load, no matter how great they are. Which means the PC's and the Harbinger might never even cross paths during a campaign.

2) In a DC campaign, with the higher level of lethality, it does not take a whole lot for a criminal organization to go beyond what any group of starting PC's can handle, if that organization turned all of its resources toward wiping them out. Even though he may not be very "realistic" himself, he can help add to the "realism" in a campaign, by giving a reason why an organized crime group can't devote all its resorces to destroying the PC's. There is always the background threat of the Harbinger using that as a chance to strike.

3) As far as his stats. Read #2,above. If a Harbinger existed, some organizations would devote all their resources to wiping him out. And since he tends to operate alone, he has to have stats that justify his continued existance.

Just my opinion,

KA.

[arcady]

Well it looks like most people want Elminster...

On the other hand, this poll doesn't let you see voted for what, so that makes it a little suspect. The trend is probably valid, but the strength of the results may not be.

[Metaphysician]

I will repeat it as many times as need be for the idea to get through:

Harbinger != Elminster.

To mimic the relative effect Elminster has on the Realms here, you'd need to build Harbinger on something over 2000 points, efficiently.

Edit: or, to put it another way- do you guys consider Batman and Captain America to be "Elminsters"??

[arcady]

No but I managed to build Batman at PL 10 (http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3223&highlight=batman+pl10) in Mutants and Masterminds.

For a frame of reference, that is the starting point total for that game system, but in Champions would be more like building a 5E character on 250 points rather than the modern 350 - the common complaint in MnM being that you don't have enough points left for skills - which is what I suspect the extra 100 points in 5E champions were for (since the 250 total dates back to the days before skills, perks, and talents).

Batman is just a detective, with decent martial skill, human stats, wealth and resources, contacts, and enough luck to save him from the many situations were he is outclassed.

Captain America is also just the peak of human performance - but across the board rather than specalized in one field. His official marvel stats (http://marvel.com/universe/index.htm) give him what would be about a 20 in all the base stats in Hero. He would be easy to build on less than 350 points. I could probably PL 8 him in MnM.



Harbringer is Elminster.

He's a sign of one of the main problems with Champions - point inflation for Kewl which has nothing to do with what it takes to genre reflect a character.

[Metaphysician]

No but I managed to build Batman at PL 10 (http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3223&highlight=batman+pl10) in Mutants and Masterminds.

No, you built someone who has the same types of skills as Batman. Not, however, the same actual level of those skills.

For a frame of reference, that is the starting point total for that game system, but in Champions would be more like building a 5E character on 250 points rather than the modern 350 - the common complaint in MnM being that you don't have enough points left for skills - which is what I suspect the extra 100 points in 5E champions were for (since the 250 total dates back to the days before skills, perks, and talents).

Try checking what a PL10 character in M&M can actually *do*. Hint Hint: PL10 damage is a *LOT* higher than what any sane character can achieve at 350 points.

Batman is just a detective, with decent martial skill, human stats, wealth and resources, contacts, and enough luck to save him from the many situations were he is outclassed.


And Superman is just a go who can fly, lift alot, bounce bullets, see far, and shoot lasers from his eyes.


Captain America is also just the peak of human performance - but across the board rather than specalized in one field. His official marvel stats (http://marvel.com/universe/index.htm) give him what would be about a 20 in all the base stats in Hero. He would be easy to build on less than 350 points. I could probably PL 8 him in MnM.

Only if you ignored his actual level of efficacy.

Harbringer is Elminster.

Come back when the Harbinger gets rescued from certain death by a goddess, who proceeds to screw him ( in the good sense ).

He's a sign of one of the main problems with Champions - point inflation for Kewl which has nothing to do with what it takes to genre reflect a character.

Not all characters are created equal. Especially characters who have 10+ years of experience.

And I find is laughable that you talk about "genre" while ignoring the material in question.

[Blue]

Let the man do what he does best, don't neuter him! Let him unleash all his badass potential on a fearful criminal population.

[Vondy]

Edit: or, to put it another way- do you guys consider Batman and Captain America to be "Elminsters"??

No, but the way they're written makes them "the pro from dover."

[Dean Edgell]

Metaphysician misses the point, I think.

Sure you can have powerful characters in your campaign. If you want a character who is better than your PCs at what they do, and your PCs like that too - go for it. You can justify it by the experience that your PCs haven't had the chance to earn.

If you want all your PCs to start at that level so they aren't outshone you can do that too.

But I don't think either approach is the best "standard" for a new DC campaign.

Maybe Steve earned every point, and loves the character - and deserves to. That doesn't mean that HoJ belongs in the published Dark Champions universe as he was.

Besides making Steve feel good about his character, what is the purpose of putting HoJ into the Dark Champions published game material? The Champions are models of characters for players and GMs who are new to the game of what kinds of characters they might build. You may say that not everyone builds to that standard, and you would be right. But HERO has set up a standard base line campaign for new players to use as a model, and given us example characters.

The HoJ, at least in his previous incarnation, was not an example at all. It was a character that was completely unlike what starting players might expect to build for a gam, and inappropriate in my opinion for a starting game. Furthermore, given the other example characters and other information, clearly it wasn't Steve's idea that people should use HoJ for a model either.

So why should HoJ appear in the official material? Steve hasn't put in example heroes in other games that are grossly out of scale with what is conceived to be the standard campaign. I haven't heard of a good reason to but him in the Dark Champions universe.

The idea that HoJ is so much cooler than any PC might be that the bad guys will devote their resources to hunting HoJ, explaining why your PC heroes survive is interesting, but hardly what my heroes will want to hear. Still, if that's the campaign you want to run, go to it.

But is that going to be the official Dark Champions universe? The standard campaign is one in which the HoJ is so much cooler than any PC can hope to be that the PCs are annoyances rather than the big problem to the bad guys?

I would like Steve to think about campaign and game structure. I would like him to think about what will encourage good characters, good campaigns and happier players, in the published material. I happen to think that that means using iconic characters who are examples for PCs. That iconic character can be the HoJ, but only if he is something built on or close to the scale of PCs in the standard, starting campaigns.

So use HoJ. But show us him at the start of his career. Or if Steve doesn't want to do that, let him save the memories, and give us an icon we can use - not one that will put most PCs in most campaigns (especially beginning campaigns) to shame.

[Former Gamer]

No but I managed to build Batman at PL 10 (http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3223&highlight=batman+pl10) in Mutants and Masterminds.

Batman is just a detective, with decent martial skill, human stats, wealth and resources, contacts, and enough luck to save him from the many situations were he is outclassed.




Not to start a whole different argument, but that depends if you're talking the Batman who got taken down by Ratcatcher or the Batman that took out four Martians solo.

That JLA Batman is a lot more than that, the other one is somewhat less.

[Dean Edgell]

Regarding Captain America and Batman, I don't think it is useful to discuss how many points they may be built upon. We can argue about that, but it won't help us.

The real issue is to look at how they are used in comic book stories. When Cap is in his own book, he is the hero - read PC in the campaign. So scale isn't an issue.

When Cap guest stars in another hero's book, is he so much cooler than the other hero that the other hero might as well not have shown up? No. Cap is pretty cool, but he isn't normally used to make the other heroes look like shmucks. And it isn't any different in the Avengers. So, regardless of the number of points he is built on, he is scaled to match the universe/campaign.

And the same needs to be true for the Harbinger. He needs to be scaled to interact with the PCs - and in DC material, this means scaled for the average/standard/presumed campaign levels. Sure, there will be many campaigns that aren't standard (mine for example if I run one). But the product needs to be set at a standardized level. And it doesn't need an iconic character (the face of DC to the world) that is designed to make DC players feel that their characters are shmucks who can't make the grade.

[Champsguy]

When Cap guest stars in another hero's book, is he so much cooler than the other hero that the other hero might as well not have shown up? No. Cap is pretty cool, but he isn't normally used to make the other heroes look like shmucks. And it isn't any different in the Avengers. So, regardless of the number of points he is built on, he is scaled to match the universe/campaign.[/b]

Actually, yeah, he usually does make them look like schmucks. The same with Batman or Superman.

Now, I do agree with the point you made that PCs need to be powerful and cool. That's why I start mine with a lot more points. I'm sorry, but 350 point characters are schmucks.

The problem you get otherwise is the one I have with the regular Champions Universe. You've got all these powerful villains and no one to stop them. Who is gonna stop Gravitar? It's certainly not the Champions. There have to be heroes around who can stop the big bad guys. It doesn't matter if Captain Infinity makes the PCs say "wow, there's no way we could ever beat him". That's a lot better than Dr Destroyer making the heroes say "wow, there's no way we could ever beat him".

I look at the 5th Edition world and I say "Why hasn't Dr Destroyer taken over yet? Oh, it must be because Takofanes would stop him." The truth is, 350 point characters don't compete with the high-end villains. They are, bluntly, schmucks. There need to be heroes out there who can handle the real bad guys.

Harbinger? In 4th Edition, he'd handle guys like Andre Panthanatos, Master Hu, and the Weasel. Because PCs sure as hell couldn't.

[nexus]

Can't say I agree with the "shmucks" angle, but to each his own.

[Eosin]

The boards won't format the UBB text so here is a RTF - This is Batman without any powers (Utility Belt, Gadgets, Superskills) or any regular skills.

The question for Arcady is where do you disagree with this write up?


THE BATMAN
Val Char Cost Roll Notes
20 STR 10 13- Lift 400.0kg; 4d6 [4]
23 DEX 39 14- OCV: 8/DCV: 8
20 CON 20 13-
15 BODY 10 12-
23 INT 13 14- PER Roll 14-
25 EGO 30 14- ECV: 8
20 PRE 10 13- PRE Attack: 4d6
20 COM 5 13-

10 PD 6 Total: 10 PD (0 rPD)
10 ED 6 Total: 10 ED (0 rED)
6 SPD 27 Phases: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12
10 REC 4
40 END 0
50 STUN 15 Total Characteristic Cost: 199

Movement: Running: 7"/14"
Leaping: 6"/12"
Swimming: 2"/4"

Cost Powers END
Living Weapon
Maneuver OCV DCV Notes
4 Martial Strike +0 +2 8d6 Strike
4 Fast Strike +2 +0 8d6 Strike
5 Offensive Strike -2 +1 10d6 Strike
4 Counterstrike +2 +2 8d6 Strike, Must Follow Block
4 Killing Strike -2 +0 HKA 2d6
5 Passing Strike +1 +0 6d6 +v/5; FMove
4 Nerve Strike -1 +1 3d6 NND
4 Choke Hold -2 +0 Grab One Limb; 3d6 NND
3 Legsweep +2 -1 7d6 Strike, Target Falls
5 Passing Throw +0 +0 6d6 +v/5; Target Falls; FMove
3 Martial Throw +0 +1 6d6 +v/5, Target Falls
3 Martial Grab -1 -1 Grab Two Limbs, 40 STR for holding on
4 Martial Escape +0 +0 45 STR vs. Grabs
5 Passing Disarm -1 -1 Disarm, 40 STR to Disarm; FMove
5 Takeaway +0 +0 Grab Weapon, 40 STR to take weapon away
4 Martial Block +2 +2 Block, Abort
5 Flying Dodge -- +4 Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove
Thrown MA
Maneuver OCV DCV Notes
5 Far Shot +1 -1 Strike
5 Offensive Ranged Disarm +1 -1 Disarm, + 10 STR to Disarm
4 Trip -1 -1 v/5, Target Falls
4 Basic Shot +0 +0 Strike, +2 DC
8 Weapon Element: Bat Weapons
8 +2 HTH Damage Class(es)

Perks
30 Advanced Tech -JLA
10 Computer Link - NSA Tap
30 Follower - Floating Robin
15 Follower - Alfred
15 Money - GDP more than some nations: Filthy Rich
45 Bat Cave
40 Bat Vehicles
27 Contact: JLA (Contact has access to major institutions, Contact has extremely useful Skills or resources, Contact has significant Contacts of his own, Contact limited by identity, Very Good relationship with Contact), Organization Contact (x3) (27 Active Points) 12-
21 Contact: GCPD - The Commisioner (Contact has access to major institutions, Contact has significant Contacts of his own, Contact has very useful Skills or resources, Contact limited by identity, Good relationship with Contact), Organization Contact (x3) (21 Active Points) 12-
11 Contact: Nightwing (Contact has extremely useful Skills or resources, Contact has significant Contacts of his own, Very Good relationship with Contact) 14-
15 Reputation: The Batman (A large group) 14-, +5/+5d6

Talents
3 Ambidexterity (-2 Off Hand penalty)
12 Combat Luck (6 PD/6 ED)
18 Combat Sense (Sense) 15-
16 Crippling Blow - He won't Walk Again
22 Danger Sense (immediate vicinity, out of combat, Function as a Sense, Intuitional) 14-
14 Fearless - I inspire fear
3 Lightsleep

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 452
Total Cost: 651

200+ Disadvantages
150 Custom Disadvantage
301 Experience Points

Total Disadvantage Points: 651

[Dragonblade]

Harbinger of Justice was one of the coolest characters to come out of 4e Dark Champions.

I hope Steve brings him back in all his insane overkill glory!

[Metaphysician]

The boards won't format the UBB text so here is a RTF - This is Batman without any powers (Utility Belt, Gadgets, Superskills) or any regular skills.

The question for Arcady is where do you disagree with this write up?


THE BATMAN
Val Char Cost Roll Notes
20 STR 10 13- Lift 400.0kg; 4d6 [4]
23 DEX 39 14- OCV: 8/DCV: 8
20 CON 20 13-
15 BODY 10 12-
23 INT 13 14- PER Roll 14-
25 EGO 30 14- ECV: 8
20 PRE 10 13- PRE Attack: 4d6
20 COM 5 13-

10 PD 6 Total: 10 PD (0 rPD)
10 ED 6 Total: 10 ED (0 rED)
6 SPD 27 Phases: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12
10 REC 4
40 END 0
50 STUN 15 Total Characteristic Cost: 199

Movement: Running: 7"/14"
Leaping: 6"/12"
Swimming: 2"/4"

Cost Powers END
Living Weapon
Maneuver OCV DCV Notes
4 Martial Strike +0 +2 8d6 Strike
4 Fast Strike +2 +0 8d6 Strike
5 Offensive Strike -2 +1 10d6 Strike
4 Counterstrike +2 +2 8d6 Strike, Must Follow Block
4 Killing Strike -2 +0 HKA 2d6
5 Passing Strike +1 +0 6d6 +v/5; FMove
4 Nerve Strike -1 +1 3d6 NND
4 Choke Hold -2 +0 Grab One Limb; 3d6 NND
3 Legsweep +2 -1 7d6 Strike, Target Falls
5 Passing Throw +0 +0 6d6 +v/5; Target Falls; FMove
3 Martial Throw +0 +1 6d6 +v/5, Target Falls
3 Martial Grab -1 -1 Grab Two Limbs, 40 STR for holding on
4 Martial Escape +0 +0 45 STR vs. Grabs
5 Passing Disarm -1 -1 Disarm, 40 STR to Disarm; FMove
5 Takeaway +0 +0 Grab Weapon, 40 STR to take weapon away
4 Martial Block +2 +2 Block, Abort
5 Flying Dodge -- +4 Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove
Thrown MA
Maneuver OCV DCV Notes
5 Far Shot +1 -1 Strike
5 Offensive Ranged Disarm +1 -1 Disarm, + 10 STR to Disarm
4 Trip -1 -1 v/5, Target Falls
4 Basic Shot +0 +0 Strike, +2 DC
8 Weapon Element: Bat Weapons
8 +2 HTH Damage Class(es)

Perks
30 Advanced Tech -JLA
10 Computer Link - NSA Tap
30 Follower - Floating Robin
15 Follower - Alfred
15 Money - GDP more than some nations: Filthy Rich
45 Bat Cave
40 Bat Vehicles
27 Contact: JLA (Contact has access to major institutions, Contact has extremely useful Skills or resources, Contact has significant Contacts of his own, Contact limited by identity, Very Good relationship with Contact), Organization Contact (x3) (27 Active Points) 12-
21 Contact: GCPD - The Commisioner (Contact has access to major institutions, Contact has significant Contacts of his own, Contact has very useful Skills or resources, Contact limited by identity, Good relationship with Contact), Organization Contact (x3) (21 Active Points) 12-
11 Contact: Nightwing (Contact has extremely useful Skills or resources, Contact has significant Contacts of his own, Very Good relationship with Contact) 14-
15 Reputation: The Batman (A large group) 14-, +5/+5d6

Talents
3 Ambidexterity (-2 Off Hand penalty)
12 Combat Luck (6 PD/6 ED)
18 Combat Sense (Sense) 15-
16 Crippling Blow - He won't Walk Again
22 Danger Sense (immediate vicinity, out of combat, Function as a Sense, Intuitional) 14-
14 Fearless - I inspire fear
3 Lightsleep

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 452
Total Cost: 651

200+ Disadvantages
150 Custom Disadvantage
301 Experience Points

Total Disadvantage Points: 651


Not bad. I'd up his characteristics a bit, and increase the +DCs to 4, though. OTOH, thats partly because I find it difficult to stomach having Nighthawk a better MAer than Batman.

This, btw, should go a long way to showing why a Batman analogue in the Champs U ought to be a megahero. Start adding in even just ordinary skills and the utility belt, and he's gonna top 800. Give him the rest of his gear and some superskills, and he's going to top 900, minimum.

[Eosin]

BTW - 357 points are from Talents & Perks for the Bats.

[arcady]

No, you built someone who has the same types of skills as Batman. Not, however, the same actual level of those skills.A matter of interpretation. You can try to pack onto a character every last little thing that you feel ever came up, or you can stick to the main themes and no more - working under the premise that the remainder is plot of individual stories or adaptations. With individual stories it can be explained by luck, temporary abilities, Hero points, and so on.


Try checking what a PL10 character in M&M can actually *do*. Hint Hint: PL10 damage is a *LOT* higher than what any sane character can achieve at 350 points.
Considering that I've been running a regular game of MnM for a year and a half, and have run Champions before that since 1984, I have perhaps a better idea of what a PL 10 character can do than most other people you will find. In fact, I wager with confidence that my understanding of this outstrips the author of the game - something I've actually backed on their forums, with the claim that there is a community of us with that level of knowledge grown out of usage and hashing issues out in arguments together. It was part of my statement demanding a scaling back of errata that was not really errata but revision...

I and perhaps five to ten other people are -the- MnM experts who can slice the system apart any way we desire and deliver back whatever is needed.

There are people there that will disagree with my choices on rules options, or my opinions on genre, plot, and so on - but you can't challenge my system expertise.

A PL10 attack is not that much of an issue, a large pistol is PL5 - a rifle PL7, that gun in Hero is perhaps a 2d6 RKA at most - the rifle 3d6 at most. More likely they are 1d6+1 and 2d6 respectively. A PL10 attack is about the same game effects wise as a 10d6 EB.


As for the over pointed Batman in this thread - he could and should be slimmed down a lot. Remove everything not core, look to things that can be grouped into themes, and keep the stats to human levels. No stat of his should be above Normal Characteristic Maxima's settings.

You've designed Batman using a capital 'K' for Kewl, you should make him with a lowercase 'c' for cool. You're being blinded by his cape. The 'anime complex' - where people see good drawing and plenty of fan service and read it as solid storylines... :)

In short - you've Elminster-fied him.

Show me a character that shaves Batman down to his core themes - as he is seen in the larger picture - and then we will have something to discuss. Until that point we're approaching the issue from such different paradigms that communication is impossible.

I cannot legitimately say your method is invalid just on the face of it. But... When PCs are expected to be defined on the terms I have set forth - as a bare minimum of the concept, using restraint and grouping to keep everything within a conservative total - a thinner definition capturing the core and not all the variants, it then does indeed become invalid to define other characters used in the same context by an opposite standard.

If we're to define Batman and Captain in the most liberal of terms - giving them everything we can pack onto them to make them 'Kewl' - to make them drawn by Rob Liefield, then we need to do the same for PCs. We don't, and thus the method is invalid when it is only partially applied.

[Eosin]

So you don't really want to emulate Batman, you want to strip all of the extranious stuff off of his character sheet and call that "Batman."

I can see about 50 points that could be tanked from this version and still call him "Batman" but if you don't include things like the Commissioner, Robin, Wealth, and Vehicles then you really are not building the Batman, you are building a character who is kind of like Batman in theme.

The point of emulating a character - is to emulate them. Not strip them to a specific point total. You can call it Kewl gaming if you want derogatory comments don't really help your arguement. I was trying to see where the problem was and where we could reach common ground since you seem to have such a drastically differing view point from the overwhelming majority of those polled. Now I understand that when you say "I can build Batman on X points" you aren't being honest about what you are building.

On stats - DoJ sets the curve if you will and high end martial artists have some prerequsites to earn that stature - foremost among them is a minimum 23 DEX and 6 SPD. You can bellyache all day long about it but that is the default curve, not something that anyone here has any control over. Truthfully, I would incorporate the suggestions by Metaphysician in my own version of Batman but thought to post a more toned down version stat wise to encourage the sort of "meeting halfway" that encourages discussion.

PS - I think you are the first person I have ever heard of that would suggest that Batman be 20 DEX 4 SPD. The majority of Ninjas in Ninja Hero could whip that punk but I guess he would meet your criteria of cool with a lower case "c" - instead of being built like he should be...Batman is Kewl. He is the worlds greatest detective and one of the the premire hand-to-hand combatants in DC and he don't have no augmented augmented abilities. You would not want to see our Captian America he got a 7 SPD after all, he needs to be able to whip the Harbinger.

I might also point out that NCM is not a hard ceiling at which stats must stop - instead they are an idea of where NORMAL HUMANS generally peak out and Heroes must now pay double points to advance per the rules, that is an Olympic level gymnast would have a 20 DEX. Batman & Robin/Nightwing are superior to Hamm, Dagget, and a whole host of other Olympic gynasts so where do you go from there? The rules have a built in allowance to continue advancement so that if you want to model these types of things you can.

[Metaphysician]

*sigh*

I never knew it was such a crime to actually aim for an *accurare portrayal of the capabilities of a character.*

And DEX 20 Spd 4?? Give. Me. A. Break. Apparently, in your universe, Batman is in mortal danger any time he takes on more than two street punks. . .

[Dean Edgell]

Now, I do agree with the point you made that PCs need to be powerful and cool. That's why I start mine with a lot more points. I'm sorry, but 350 point characters are schmucks.

The problem you get otherwise is the one I have with the regular Champions Universe. You've got all these powerful villains and no one to stop them. Who is gonna stop Gravitar? It's certainly not the Champions. There have to be heroes around who can stop the big bad guys.

Harbinger? In 4th Edition, he'd handle guys like Andre Panthanatos, Master Hu, and the Weasel. Because PCs sure as hell couldn't.

I agree with the problem here entirely - but not the solution.

The problem here is one of scale. The heroes should be scaled to interact with the NPCs - including villains. That doesn't mean that some can't be tougher, but with the exception of Galactus-type situations, they should be on the same scale.

I too am unhappy with the Gravitar/Champions dichotomy. You want to deal with it by inflating the heroes until they are on the same level as the published NPCs. I want to deflate the published NPCs until they are on the level of the heroes. Either approach will deal with the problem. Either approach needs to recognize that many individual campaigns will diverge from the standard.

Bringing the discussion back to Harbinger, the question really is - what does Steve want to use for the model character for players. Because that is the primary role that Harbinger serves - and he should be scaled appropriately.

If I'm wrong about the role of Harbinger in the published campaign materials, what is it?

I remain of the view that if his role is only to show the PC heroes that there is another hero much, much cooler than they are - he falls right into the rules about ruining campaigns.

[Dean Edgell]

*sigh*

I never knew it was such a crime to actually aim for an *accurare portrayal of the capabilities of a character.*

And DEX 20 Spd 4?? Give. Me. A. Break. Apparently, in your universe, Batman is in mortal danger any time he takes on more than two street punks. . .

Apparently, in your universe, two street punks are capable of seriously threatening the life of a martial artist with DEX 20, SPD 4 - Which in the published HERO system is extremely competent.

Again, the problem is one of scaling.

Street punks who have CVs of say 3, and SPD 2 aren't a serious threat to a Martial Artist with DEX 20, SPD 4 - especially if the Martial Artist has a level or two. Of course, they may get lucky - but fighting crime is a dangerous business.

Anyway, the real issue is scaling. It isn't really what the CV of the hero or the punks is (or how many points they are built on), it is how they relate to each other.

[gregghelmberger]

I'm going to be running a costumed vigilante campaign set in Hudson City. I'm going to be using 200-250 point PCs, and I intend to scale the opposition accordingly. On that scale, a 600- or 900-point HoJ is just bizarre, freakish, and worse than useless.

Let's look at the uses a character of that magnitude could have. First of all, I don't need him to battle four-color supervillains, because there won't be any. This will be a Dark Champions game, period; there are no "supers." Any NPCs with bloated stats will be toned down to the point where they can provide a challenge for my PCs, or else eliminated altogether. So, for me, that rationale for Harbinger just goes by the board.

Second, I don't need him to face down the big institutional or organizational threats, since that's what my PCs (and other PC-level NPC good guys) will be doing. Any organization too powerful for the PCs to handle will either be scaled back to be within their reach or, sometimes, left as they are to serve as an 800-lb gorilla -- the "third rail" of the campaign that even the PCs, as the probably the most competent and powerful humans in the world, can't handle. These would be villains that the PCs could hope to temporarily thwart but never destroy.

Beyond that, I can't even imagine what use a wildly powerful Harbinger could be. Having an NPC who can, singlehandedly, do everything all the PCs working together can do and much that they couldn't is the single most corrosive thing I can think of for a campaign; it not only renders the PCs superfluous, but it would enrage any player who expects their characters to have pride of place in the game. It's the single worst element I can imagine injecting into the setting.

So, therefore, only one route seems both practical and satisfying: the premise of the campaign will be that it's set in Hudson City a few months after HoJ was assassinated (in some incredibly nasty way, probably public impaling). Hudson City is coming apart at the seams and it's up to the PCs to hold it together. It's the best way I can think of to tell the players that this game belongs to them and their characters, not to some four-color refugee whose bloated stat sheet makes everyone else in the universe seem infantile.

Death to Harbinger!

[Former Gamer]

*sigh*

I never knew it was such a crime to actually aim for an *accurare portrayal of the capabilities of a character.*

And DEX 20 Spd 4?? Give. Me. A. Break. Apparently, in your universe, Batman is in mortal danger any time he takes on more than two street punks. . .

The only way you could even begin to make this work is if you built in a bunch of "powers" into Batman. Stuff like Dex Drain versus other combatants, only effects combat against Batman (to simulate how experienced he is in interpreting what you are going to do), force fields/armor based off of dodging, area effect energy blasts defined as punches/kicks to plow through multiple mooks and other things of that sort. DEX20 SPD4 definitely doesn't emulate what we see in the comic books (not even in his lowest powered appearances).

[Metaphysician]

Yep.

The problem here is that some people think the stats mean whatever you want them to mean, when they manifestly do not.

Re: Gravitar/Champions dichotomy, how about this simple solution- Build a setting with heroes and villains of many different tiers, with each tier generally sticking to its own opposition. You know, *like the actual comic books?!*

[Dean Edgell]

The only way you could even begin to make this work is if you built in a bunch of "powers" into Batman. Stuff like Dex Drain versus other combatants, only effects combat against Batman (to simulate how experienced he is in interpreting what you are going to do), force fields/armor based off of dodging, area effect energy blasts defined as punches/kicks to plow through multiple mooks and other things of that sort. DEX20 SPD4 definitely doesn't emulate what we see in the comic books (not even in his lowest powered appearances).

It may or may not emulate comic books. That may be a matter of perception and style of play.

But a martial artist with a Dex of 20 will have a DCV of 7 + martial arts bonus + any levels. Say 10 to be conservative.

The street punk has an OCV of 3. He needs a 4 to hit.

Batman doesn't get hit often by punks, but it happens. I think that is a fair reflection of a skilled martial artist.

By comparison the martial artist has an OCV of say only 8. He hits on a 15 or less. Pretty good odds.

Assume that the martial artist's capacity to deliver damage is only 6 dice for a punch - that's 21 Stun on average. The punk does say 7 Stun, maybe as much as 14 with that baseball bat he picks up.

The wimpy martial artist has 8 PD. In the event that he gets hit he'll take a few pips of damage, if he gets hit with the bat.

The punk normal has a PD of 2. He will be KO'd or nearly so with one punch. (As a GM, I'd usually say it was so and he'd go down for the count - but even if you don't do so, he is stunned and the martial artist will probably hit him again before he recovers.)

Within the average turn a lowly 4 SPD martial artist will hit 3 or 4 times unless he's really off his game. That means that within that turn probably at least one of the punks is down for the count, and the other, if he's still up, is probably stunned.

Now if you want to give them their 4 recovery, they maybe able to stagger around for the second turn, but the martial artist with 20 Dex and 4 SPD should be able to beat a couple of street punks handily.And this presumes a pretty unimpressive martial artist. A more skilled one would do even better.

You don't need Dex Drains or force fields or the like.

This was simply a response to the suggestion that a 20 Dex 4 SPD martial artist was taking his life in his hands fighting a couple of street punks.

I'm not saying that if I was building Batman that I wouldn't look at various special abilities or perhaps give him higher stats.

For me, this conversation isn't really about Batman. It's about whether the Harbinger should reflect the characters that players are expected to play, and that NPC examples should be scaled to match.

Which point, from his last post, Metaphysician seems to accept. So now we're really just talking about what the standard level of play should be, and whether Steve should market DC at various levels.

[Metaphysician]

Um, I *don't* accept that the HoJ should be at the level that ( most ) players play it. He should be notably above it.

Specifically, he should represent what a top tier, highly talented and experienced character would look like. Perhaps what a player would look like in a very powerful campaign, but not a normal one.

[gregghelmberger]

Metaphysician, the problem for my campaign specifically, and I think in a general conceptual way, is that the presence of such an uber character renders the PCs and their actions meaningless: if the menace is big enough to be serious, HoJ shoulders the PCs out of the way and handles it himself, and leaves the PCs the crumbs and the sideshows. If the PCs completely screw the pooch on their little sideshows, the HoJ is always there like a (somewhat) benevolent papa to clean up their messes. The PCs have no importance and no impact. That's hardly the ideal situation for promoting player interest in a game.

[Lezentauw]

Here is my take on HOJ. If he was presented in the Dark Champions genre book, then I would want to see a beginning version of him written up. Done in much the same light as the Champions are for the Champions Genre book.

Since he is suppose to be making an appearance in the Hudson City Campaign sourcebook, I don't really see a problem with him being written fully up. Much in the same way that characters presented in CCK are not just written on 350 points. In a campaign sourcebook, HOJ can represent a character that the players can look to as a possible achievement point.

Some players would find the role playing potential really strong, to see if they can somehow get out from beneath HOJ's shadow. Most players though would find that sort of thing very frustrating. So depending on the player base, I would decide whether or not I would put HOJ in the same city as the pcs. If you write him out of the city, you can always introduce him in a cameo appearances.

[Champsguy]

The Harbinger can be uber-powered without completely altering the game. Your players don't have to know how good he is--he's just good. He shouldn't get lots of screen time, but when he shoots the villain, he hits. That 18 OCV he had (or whatever it was) lets him mow down a group of villains fast. The Harbinger should appear, be really effective, and then disappear. The players don't ever have to see his stats. He's basically a street-level plot device. Harbinger isn't the type to sit down with the PCs at a diner and unzip to compare sizes.

Remember, a lot of Harbinger's plot seeds were on the PC's trying to stop him.

Harbinger also has to fight very carefully. He doesn't have a lot of defense, so he's going to have to hold his phases sometimes in order to be able to dive for cover. The important thing to remember is that Harbinger is nearly a master villain. He needs those extra phases to dodge, dive for cover, or do other things like that. He doesn't have anyone watching his back. If you play Harbinger's opponents intelligently, he's going to need those great stats. Remember, if Harbinger ever gets dazed or knocked unconscious, it's over. He's dead. The heroes can afford a slip up (they've got teammates). The Blue Moon Killer can't.

So while he has god-like stats, most of those are a safety feature. They give him the chance to survive on his own. He's the 20th level D&D character who is wandering around in the same area as the 8th-10th level PC party.

Harbinger also had to fight the Card Shark organization in 4th Edition. I get the feeling that the PCs were supposed to get caught in the middle of Card Shark's and Harbinger's little war.

Harbinger fills the Batman role well. He's effectively built as if he were the only vigilante in the city. He's got to be able to do it all. His weakness is, like Batman, that he's only one man, and that he's completely obsessed with his little crusade. He'll also probably disappear for long periods of time. Remember, he doesn't regenerate. If he gets shot bad, he's gonna have to hole up somewhere for a while to heal. Harbinger is incredibly useful for the GM, and there are lots of reasons why the GM can keep him busy. Maybe Harbinger knows that a powerful crimelord is in town, and he decides that it's time to put this guy down. That was 2 months ago, and Harbinger hasn't been seen since. What he didn't know is that the "crime lord" was Menton, and now the villain has his own personal assassin to send out on missions. Of course, Harbinger will be pissed when he wakes up... in another 6 months or so.

[JmOz]

The Harbinger can be uber-powered without completely altering the game. Your players don't have to know how good he is--he's just good. He shouldn't get lots of screen time, but when he shoots the villain, he hits. That 18 OCV he had (or whatever it was) lets him mow down a group of villains fast. The Harbinger should appear, be really effective, and then disappear. The players don't ever have to see his stats. He's basically a street-level plot device. Harbinger isn't the type to sit down with the PCs at a diner and unzip to compare sizes.

Remember, a lot of Harbinger's plot seeds were on the PC's trying to stop him.

Harbinger also has to fight very carefully. He doesn't have a lot of defense, so he's going to have to hold his phases sometimes in order to be able to dive for cover. The important thing to remember is that Harbinger is nearly a master villain. He needs those extra phases to dodge, dive for cover, or do other things like that. He doesn't have anyone watching his back. If you play Harbinger's opponents intelligently, he's going to need those great stats. Remember, if Harbinger ever gets dazed or knocked unconscious, it's over. He's dead. The heroes can afford a slip up (they've got teammates). The Blue Moon Killer can't.

So while he has god-like stats, most of those are a safety feature. They give him the chance to survive on his own. He's the 20th level D&D character who is wandering around in the same area as the 8th-10th level PC party.

Harbinger also had to fight the Card Shark organization in 4th Edition. I get the feeling that the PCs were supposed to get caught in the middle of Card Shark's and Harbinger's little war.

Harbinger fills the Batman role well. He's effectively built as if he were the only vigilante in the city. He's got to be able to do it all. His weakness is, like Batman, that he's only one man, and that he's completely obsessed with his little crusade. He'll also probably disappear for long periods of time. Remember, he doesn't regenerate. If he gets shot bad, he's gonna have to hole up somewhere for a while to heal. Harbinger is incredibly useful for the GM, and there are lots of reasons why the GM can keep him busy. Maybe Harbinger knows that a powerful crimelord is in town, and he decides that it's time to put this guy down. That was 2 months ago, and Harbinger hasn't been seen since. What he didn't know is that the "crime lord" was Menton, and now the villain has his own personal assassin to send out on missions. Of course, Harbinger will be pissed when he wakes up... in another 6 months or so.

Hey champsguy, nice to see you, how ya doing?

Anyways just FYI: HoJ now has his own team of nutsoids that follow in his psyco footsetps (okay, never liked the bloody vigilante thing)

[nexus]

The Harbinger can be uber-powered without completely altering the game. Your players don't have to know how good he is--he's just good. He shouldn't get lots of screen time, but when he shoots the villain, he hits. That 18 OCV he had (or whatever it was) lets him mow down a group of villains fast. The Harbinger should appear, be really effective, and then disappear. The players don't ever have to see his stats. He's basically a street-level plot device. Harbinger isn't the type to sit down with the PCs at a diner and unzip to compare sizes.


You do realize you just described the classic "Pet NPC/GMPC" schtick right? Ultra Guy shows up, upstages (and often "saves") the PCs and vanishes into the night in blaze of "Kewl". So kewl is he that even if the "scrubs" try to follow him or find out about him, they can't! Just shows how incompetent they really are! :)

Seriously, I don't see the deal with uber NPCs. It just seems like GM ego stroking or secretly wanting to "play" instead of run. If you want to be in the game find a friggin' group and play already don't inflict your ego based creations on the people that are supposed to be the stars of the story.

Edit: And yes, you can just take the HOJ out of the picture when you need too, but if you're going to have a make an excuse (He slipped in the shower. Again!) to take the Harbinger out of the picture whenever you actually want the PCs to handle something major, then why bother having him at all?

[Pendaran]

so, are you going to address the other part of his post on the Harbinger? You know, the following:

Harbinger also has to fight very carefully. He doesn't have a lot of defense, so he's going to have to hold his phases sometimes in order to be able to dive for cover. The important thing to remember is that Harbinger is nearly a master villain. He needs those extra phases to dodge, dive for cover, or do other things like that. He doesn't have anyone watching his back. If you play Harbinger's opponents intelligently, he's going to need those great stats. Remember, if Harbinger ever gets dazed or knocked unconscious, it's over. He's dead. The heroes can afford a slip up (they've got teammates). The Blue Moon Killer can't.

So while he has god-like stats, most of those are a safety feature. They give him the chance to survive on his own.

This to me seems to neatly deal with the GMPC issue.

His, whole, you know, ability to die, to be taken down for long periods by slow healing damage, and the like.

It's the height of ridiculousness to compare this guy to Elminster, who has a greater goddess directly intercede for him on his behalf if he ever gets into too much trouble, and who's chums hurl around mountains at armies of demons to rescue him from problems.

[gregghelmberger]

This to me seems to neatly deal with the GMPC issue.

His, whole, you know, ability to die, to be taken down for long periods by slow healing damage, and the like.

As Nexus pointed out, if you have to contrive his absence whenever you want the PCs to actually achieve anything, why have him there at all? I want my PCs to achieve things all the time, or at least be given the opportunity to do so. I don't want to ever have to deal with an NPC who can handle everything without breaking a sweat, even to say he happens to be home that night a-washing his tights.

The issue for me is that the game ought to be about the PCs and their actions, not Harbinger and his actions. If you have to contrive his absence at important points to make sure the PCs get a chance to shine, then it's a lot better to mandate his absence entirely and let the PCs shine all the time.

[death tribble]

The first thing he does is track down the people who said go away and 'talk to them'. Permanently.

[JmOz]

I think this is even more of a problem in DC than in Champions, because of scale.

If the Guardians (a Super-Hero Group)know that there is a team of more powerful superheroes are 5 states away it's a nice bit of fluff that explains why Dr. Destoyer etc... have not taken over the world

If Vengence (a Vigilante group) Hudson City is also protected by HoJ the players start suffering, as they have no chance to prove themselves

From experience: I do not feel my centurians (the premeire superteam of my world) has hurt my game world as the closest group are located in NY, NY while my players are in Star City, NC (For that matter the players just saved a group of centurians)

[Eosin]

The argument that the HoJ "hurts" the setting is not well thought out IMO.

Does the the Grey Rider hurt any era of play in LotR?
If you played Star Wars in the Rise of the Empire era does it hurt to have Mace or Yoda around?
If you played Star Trek does it hurt to have Kirk and the Enterprize out there?
Does Greyhawk suffer because there is a Circle of Eight?
If you played in Wheel of Time would you remove Taim or Logain? What about other major players like Matt, Rand or Perrin?

THe presence of someone that can hand the PCs their hind end is only a problem if the DM is unable to incorporate them into play in an appropriate manner. That is not a failing of the NPC it is a failing of the GM and we have all had bad GMs so I undertstand the gut reaction.

If you are a player and have a game run by a poor GM, then you have my sympathies but if you are a DM then the real issue to me would not be to remove HoJ or James T. Kirk but instead learn to run bad monkey NPCs in a manner that enhances rather than detracts from the game. They are only a problem if you don't understand how to utilize them.

And as Jonny Storm would say "Flame ON!"

[gregghelmberger]

Eosin, I beg to differ. First, Gandalf barely intervened in the novels in which he was a character -- had he tossed Frodo on the back of an Eagle and flown him to Mt. Doom in chapter one instead of being all secretive and ineffective, he'd have short-circuited the whole adventure. Gandalf was sufficiently powerful that even the author who created him had to ignore him for most of the narrative. But really, that's neither here nor there.

The main point is that the Hudson City writeup will, from what I understand, have an extremely powerful character who pretty much automatically gets involved in anything important that the PCs are trying to do. To return to your examples as illustrations, if the LotR RPG setting specififes that whenever the PCs begin to do something important and dangerous, Gandalf steps in; if the Star Wars setting specifies the intervention of Mace or Yoda into every situation of import; if the Star Trek setting mandates that Kirk sails the Enterprise right into the thick of it whenever the PCs are doing something that might impact the setting; then it is a problem. And it's not a problem with the GM, it's a problem with the setting that has ubercharacters and mandates their use in specific situations. Is the GM free to ignore the mandate and have Gandalf, Yoda or Harbinger not intervene in situations that the setting dictates they ought to? Of course. But in no way does that render the setting less flawed for mandating the intervention of the ubercharacter in the first place.

[Captain Obvious]

As someone has pointed out already, the Harbinger can be shot, and will be out of action for quite some time afterwards. If the characters get to a crime scene before he does, no amount of skills will allow him to get evidence that the PCs have carried off with them, and if the PCs intentionally muck up the crime scene to keep the police off the trail until they've dealt with the perps, the Harbinger will also be thrown off the trail. As the PCs establish themselves, the Harbinger may decide that their turf is under control, and concentrate elsewhere in the city.

Plus, I've always found it to be very dramatic to have a very powerful NPC, with the potential to totally overshadow the PCs, and then have the PCs witness that NPC very seriously wounded or killed by the adventure's main bad guy. They have to go it alone against this guy who took down the top dog....

[nexus]

The argument that the HoJ "hurts" the setting is not well thought out IMO.

Does the the Grey Rider hurt any era of play in LotR?
If you played Star Wars in the Rise of the Empire era does it hurt to have Mace or Yoda around?
If you played Star Trek does it hurt to have Kirk and the Enterprize out there?
Does Greyhawk suffer because there is a Circle of Eight?
If you played in Wheel of Time would you remove Taim or Logain? What about other major players like Matt, Rand or Perrin?

THe presence of someone that can hand the PCs their hind end is only a problem if the DM is unable to incorporate them into play in an appropriate manner. That is not a failing of the NPC it is a failing of the GM and we have all had bad GMs so I undertstand the gut reaction.

If you are a player and have a game run by a poor GM, then you have my sympathies but if you are a DM then the real issue to me would not be to remove HoJ or James T. Kirk but instead learn to run bad monkey NPCs in a manner that enhances rather than detracts from the game. They are only a problem if you don't understand how to utilize them.

And as Jonny Storm would say "Flame ON!"

The big difference is those examples you gave are MUCH bigger than just Hudson City. Star Wars, Star Trek, Middle Earth, etc are entire WORLDS or galaxies. There's allot to do in them beside run in the same circles as the big names. PCs might not have even heard of the names you mention, or heard of them in passing. The HOJ and the PCs would be sharing the same city, moving in the same circle and dealing with the same types of issues. Its not even similar to haveing a Justice League level team in a Champions, because you could argue there will be dealing with different tiers of trouble. The HOJ is everything the PCs are supposed to be, except much better at it.

[Dean Edgell]

I am not saying that no GM cannot make good use of an NPC who completely outclasses the PCs to a scale of magnitude. Some of the posts suggest that since it is *possible* to use Harbinger well (if the GM has sufficient skill and experience) that that answers all criticisms.

The real question here isn't whether you or I can use Harbinger well. Or whether we can use a character like him in our campaign regardless of our ability to use him well. The question is, should he appear in a DC supplement as part of the "official" DC universe - and if so what should he look like?

It seems to me that GMs with the ability to use in an appropriate fashion an HoJ that completely outclasses the PCs, have the skill to create an NPC that completely outclasses the PCs.

So we go back to the purpose of including a character, an icon even, in the DC game materials. What purposes do they serve?

As has been pointed out, Harbinger in his out of scale version, fails the test of being a model for character design. He fails the test of not being a campaign spoiler (at least in all but skilled GMs hands).

The suggestion that he is something the PCs can aspire to match seems frankly laughable to me (hmm. I'd need 600-700 xp to get there. If I play every week (which many people do not), maybe I'll get there in 6 or 7 years - maybe 4 years if the GM is generous with xp, if the campaign lasts that long...) and in any event appeals only to those who are long time players - since they are the only ones who can start with any optimism that a campaign will last that long. So, HoJ doesn't really seem to meet that test.

There seem to be some posters who are just glad to know that there is a killer like that in the universe. That doesn't convince me that he belongs in the book.

I think we have to ask ourselves what his role is in the official universe and in the published materials, and design an HoJ to serve that purpose. And not be tied to what he looked like in the previous edition.

[Eosin]

Eosin, I beg to differ. First, Gandalf barely intervened in the novels in which he was a character -- had he tossed Frodo on the back of an Eagle and flown him to Mt. Doom in chapter one instead of being all secretive and ineffective, he'd have short-circuited the whole adventure. Gandalf was sufficiently powerful that even the author who created him had to ignore him for most of the narrative. But really, that's neither here nor there.

The main point is that the Hudson City writeup will, from what I understand, have an extremely powerful character who pretty much automatically gets involved in anything important that the PCs are trying to do. To return to your examples as illustrations, if the LotR RPG setting specififes that whenever the PCs begin to do something important and dangerous, Gandalf steps in; if the Star Wars setting specifies the intervention of Mace or Yoda into every situation of import; if the Star Trek setting mandates that Kirk sails the Enterprise right into the thick of it whenever the PCs are doing something that might impact the setting; then it is a problem. And it's not a problem with the GM, it's a problem with the setting that has ubercharacters and mandates their use in specific situations. Is the GM free to ignore the mandate and have Gandalf, Yoda or Harbinger not intervene in situations that the setting dictates they ought to? Of course. But in no way does that render the setting less flawed for mandating the intervention of the ubercharacter in the first place.


I will take these one at a time.

Your first mistake is an assumption of what his role will be in a product that you have not seen. The second mistake is that you make an assumption that is at odds with his previous write-up, which had him as a mysterious and enigmatic figure who is hunted by nearly everyone in HC.

The third ---subjective from my POV--- mistake is that your description of Gandalf is exactly how HoJ should be played. He is not there to outperform the PCs, he is a plot device and a useful tool in the DMs bag of tricks.

There is no mandate in DC to have the HoJ in on anything. In fact, it destroys his whole concept in two manners to involve him in everything - the first is that unless the PCs are killed by the HoJ they are unlikely to ever know that they interacted with him while the second is that the HoJ is unlike many player groups in that he is a proactive villian. He decides when and where he will strike and if just anyone could figure that out then the HoJ would be in jail.

How about using him like this (the way 4th Ed intended him to be written used). The PCs through their contacts on HCPD discover that the police found a blue moon card on the body of an upstanding minister of a local church. Now the PCs could ignore this clue or they could begin to investigate why the HoJ killed an apparently innocent citizen?

A second use that appeared in our longstanding DC game involved Retro (Hudson City Blues) hunting the HoJ and probably having the ability to find him due to the influience of the Machine. The PCs are the only ones who know that Retro may be able to penetrate any concievible Secret ID - do they try to warn the HoJ or leave him to his own devices.

That is how he was used in one module and a "hook" fitting with his methods and motives from 4E. I think that you are falling to scare tactics that have little to do with what we already know of the HoJ.

[Eosin]

The big difference is those examples you gave are MUCH bigger than just Hudson City. Star Wars, Star Trek, Middle Earth, etc are entire WORLDS or galaxies. There's allot to do in them beside run in the same circles as the big names. PCs might not have even heard of the names you mention, or heard of them in passing. The HOJ and the PCs would be sharing the same city, moving in the same circle and dealing with the same types of issues. Its not even similar to haveing a Justice League level team in a Champions, because you could argue there will be dealing with different tiers of trouble. The HOJ is everything the PCs are supposed to be, except much better at it.

This is a RPG and scale has to do with everything. Yoda and Mace are no different to SW PCs than HoJ is to DC PCs. They are all three at the top of the relative food chains. The SW games that I have played in have fewer named NPCs than the DC games that I have played in so relatively speaking SW has a smaller pool to draw from than DC. On that same note, HC is a megalopolis (Bay City, New York City) and as such involves several million people - more than enough room for multiple crime circles.

Let me see if we can use your Star Trek example to show how small the Star Trek pool really is in comparison to the DC pool.

How many ships does the federation have?

Best I can figure from a quick google is nearly 250 named ships are known in the fist 3 shows (ST, ST: tNG, ST: DS9). I will conjecture to say that 100 known ships per title is fair and approx double that number are never named in any given title. [Reasoning: The battle of Wolf 359 resulted in the loss of 39 ships and 16 of those ships were named ships introduced prior to the battle. This was also a devastating loss to Star Fleet in terms of ships and manpower.]

We can infer that Kirk whose exploits are known even generations later in star fleet - would be one of 250-500 members of star fleet with a rank of captain or above [Later he is promoted and enters a much smaller pool of maybe 20-30 with a rank of Admiral.] So, we can categorically say that any Star Fleet officer who is in Star Fleet at the time of Kirk knows of his exploits if for no other reason than he is the only Captain to ever defeat the Kobioshi Maru - a legendary feat.

Now we have young captain PC - he knows that Kirk is out there. He knows that Kirk is leagues ahead of any living officer. He also knows that Kirk has a crack crew that by the titles end had survived more battles than any other ship in Star Fleet. Does the existance of Kirk make it less fun to be a captain? No, not unless you have a bad DM who insists on ramming Kirk down the PC captains throat.

Star Wars is even easier - name a single Jedi who is not aware of Yoda?

Characters who grossly outstrip the PCs in terms of power are only folly in the hands of an incompotent DM. There is a whole lot of crime in HC and a whole lot of people commiting those crimes, so there is no need for PCs to continually run into HoJ other than as a planned plot point.

[Eosin]

There seem to be some posters who are just glad to know that there is a killer like that in the universe. That doesn't convince me that he belongs in the book.

I think we have to ask ourselves what his role is in the official universe and in the published materials, and design an HoJ to serve that purpose. And not be tied to what he looked like in the previous edition.

First, I hope he is not stat inflated in this version and that his mystical VPP goes the way of the dodo. That we can agree on even if it only moves me closer to your supposition.

Second, it seems to me that there are some posters who are upset to know that there is as killer like that in the universe. That does not convinve me that he does NOT belong in the book.

I hope the conception stays the same, that being a villain/hero on par with Batman or Captain America but it think that many would happily conceed that he was at least some out of whack especially in the stats department.

To be a Batman/Captain America analog he is going to be gross, the trick is keeping him gross and not stepping into god awful.

[Champsguy]

Hey champsguy, nice to see you, how ya doing?

Anyways just FYI: HoJ now has his own team of nutsoids that follow in his psyco footsetps (okay, never liked the bloody vigilante thing)

I'm good. I'm out of school now, and working, so I don't get time to post too much. I don't see too many people from way back when. There are a lot of new people now.

[nexus]

This is a RPG and scale has to do with everything. Yoda and Mace are no different to SW PCs than HoJ is to DC PCs. They are all three at the top of the relative food chains. The SW games that I have played in have fewer named NPCs than the DC games that I have played in so relatively speaking SW has a smaller pool to draw from than DC. On that same note, HC is a megalopolis (Bay City, New York City) and as such involves several million people - more than enough room for multiple crime circles.

They are quite different because of scale. In Star wars, you have an entire galaxy and beyond to play around in. The PCs can be traders, bounty hunters, even criminals. The HOJ is a costumed vigilante, the PCs are costumed vigilantes, they are operating in the SAME CITY, which means pretty much, if you want to be in any way "logical" they're going to cross paths at some points. Even in the source material, most of the "Bat Family" for example moved to different cities when they got to be fully fledged heroes on their own so they wouldn't be operating under the shadow of the Bat, for example,.


Let me see if we can use your Star Trek example to show how small the Star Trek pool really is in comparison to the DC pool.

How many ships does the federation have?

Best I can figure from a quick google is nearly 250 named ships are known in the fist 3 shows (ST, ST: tNG, ST: DS9). I will conjecture to say that 100 known ships per title is fair and approx double that number are never named in any given title. [Reasoning: The battle of Wolf 359 resulted in the loss of 39 ships and 16 of those ships were named ships introduced prior to the battle. This was also a devastating loss to Star Fleet in terms of ships and manpower.]

We can infer that Kirk whose exploits are known even generations later in star fleet - would be one of 250-500 members of star fleet with a rank of captain or above [Later he is promoted and enters a much smaller pool of maybe 20-30 with a rank of Admiral.] So, we can categorically say that any Star Fleet officer who is in Star Fleet at the time of Kirk knows of his exploits if for no other reason than he is the only Captain to ever defeat the Kobioshi Maru - a legendary feat.

Now we have young captain PC - he knows that Kirk is out there. He knows that Kirk is leagues ahead of any living officer. He also knows that Kirk has a crack crew that by the titles end had survived more battles than any other ship in Star Fleet. Does the existance of Kirk make it less fun to be a captain? No, not unless you have a bad DM who insists on ramming Kirk down the PC captains throat.


Again, a matter of scaling. The galaxy (and beyond) is much bigger than Hudson City. PCs have their own ship, if they were serving on the Enterprise the main character would be more of a problem for the GM.


Star Wars is even easier - name a single Jedi who is not aware of Yoda?


Most of them in the time of the Republic, as a legendary figure that is a teacher of young Jedi on Courascant, existing in near retirement. The HOJ isn't like that. As presented in fourth edition, he is active, nearly unstoppable crimefighter that is well known in Hudson City and beyond. Another difference is, in the prequels, Yoda is essentially a PC, or in the position of one. In the first movies, he was more an NPC and dropped to an almost non existant role. No one had heard of him or thought he was dead to give the new "PCs" some room to shine. Again, the HOJ isn't presented like that. Its like if Yoda wasn't hanging on a swamp planet contemplating his navel, but actively running around kicking Imperial ass still on a certain planet. And that is where the PCs had to play.


Characters who grossly outstrip the PCs in terms of power are only folly in the hands of an incompotent DM. There is a whole lot of crime in HC and a whole lot of people commiting those crimes, so there is no need for PCs to continually run into HoJ other than as a planned plot point.]

Well, I've been gming for over 20 years. In general, character like that annoy the hell out of playeres in my experience, unless handled with extreme care. Given his abilities and nature, the HOJ unless he's changed a great deal in his new incarnation WOULD be getting in the PCs faces quite a bit unless you do the "Superman" thing and his constantly on a mission in another city, hurt, on vacation or something. There's allot of crime in Hudson, but how much major cime? I'm not talking about stopping muggers in the park but organized crimes on a level Dark Champions PCs would have to really buckle down and work to stop? The HOJ so far outstrips a Starting PCs team it isn't funny, so yeah he's going to be around allot unless either just ignore him or contiously write him out. In either case, if you have to do that constantly I ask again, why have him at all?

[nexus]

I will take these one at a time.

Your first mistake is an assumption of what his role will be in a product that you have not seen. The second mistake is that you make an assumption that is at odds with his previous write-up, which had him as a mysterious and enigmatic figure who is hunted by nearly everyone in HC.


The HOJ is engimatic in the sense that nobody knows anything about him beyond his methods and calling cards. Almost everyone knows of him. Remeber his list of kills and activities? He's killed the previous Card Sharks, done this, that and the other thing and has a body count in what, the low hundreds? He's a not stick to the shadows, barely heard of kind of guy in the Fouth Edition. He's legendary killer vigilante of Batman or Punisher level fame/infamy in Hudson City.


The third ---subjective from my POV--- mistake is that your description of Gandalf is exactly how HoJ should be played. He is not there to outperform the PCs, he is a plot device and a useful tool in the DMs bag of tricks.

There is no mandate in DC to have the HoJ in on anything. In fact, it destroys his whole concept in two manners to involve him in everything - the first is that unless the PCs are killed by the HoJ they are unlikely to ever know that they interacted with him while the second is that the HoJ is unlike many player groups in that he is a proactive villian. He decides when and where he will strike and if just anyone could figure that out then the HoJ would be in jail.

Then you would be ignoring the facts of the HOJ as presented. He's nearly Godlike. He almost has been involved in everything Hudson City of major import. Its like something major going in Gotham and Bats not showing up. Yes, it can happen, but to have it constantly happening over the course of a campaign, given Batman's abilities and position in the city stretches credibility, IMO.

PCs aren't going to be able to make a dent if they pursue the HOJ the way he's designed. Not for a long time so he's not that useful as "mega villian" and there were several presented much more to scale, IMO. The HOJ, as a concept might be able to be used, but make him more reasonable not something orders of magnitude above the players, or a legendary figure that is no longer active (for whatever reason), not active player in the Hudson City scene that borders on being a force of nature.

As for speculating, I can only speak for myself but I am going by who the HOJ was presented in Fourth Edition. And this entire thread is about speculation at its core.

[Eosin]

They are quite different because of scale. In Star wars, you have an entire galaxy and beyond to play around in. The PCs can be traders, bounty hunters, even criminals.

How many books in the SW line are devoted to playing or using the force? Now, how many are devoted to being a criminal or trader? I think it is fairly safe to say in the Rise of the Empire era that the overwhelming majority of games are going to feature Jedi. To turn this argument on its nose for a second, we could play DC in San Diego and then not have to worrry about the HoJ.

Players will typically be involved in the Jedi during the Rise era and since Yoda is Yoda and involved in managing the day to day affairs of Jedi to assume that the PCs do not know of him is nearing silly.

HoJ is ONE man, unless you have the twinky munchkin DM of the universe he can not be nearly everywhere you seem to think he is. He is active and doing his own thing like infiltrating and killing Card Shark - that takes time. If the man was as unlimited as you think he is written up to be then Hudson City would be an urban paradise but it is not - like Batman there just ain't enough of him to go around. In HC there is plenty of crime for everyone to stop.

How many man hours does HoJ devote to taking on the new Card Shark?
How many man hours does he take simply patrolling the streets?
How many man hours does he take investigating other organizations? (cause Steve included a whole bunch of them)
How many man hours does he spend in research?
How many man hours does he spend undercover?
How many man hours does he spend covering his Deep Covers?
How many man hours does he take training?
How many man hours does he take fulfilling bodily functions like sleeping & eating?

If you start to work those numbers you might find that he does not have a whole bunch of time for anything other than his pet project and keeping current on the street trends. Sure, he whacks a rapist or kiddie porn ring now and then but let's be serious he has only killed 600 to 700 people in his career - something that has spanned a decade (by speculation). Not even counting for multiple homicides that keeps his killing down to less than one person per 5 days. The HoJ is busy and he is one man and he does not have any cool hired help. To infer from his write up that he should be hanging around and ready to upstage the PCs is something that not only smacks of poor DMing, it flies in the face of any reality.

There are something more than 20-30 vigilantes in HC per 4th ED. Even keeping tabs on all of those Vigilantes would be well beyond the means of a single Vigilante/Villain.



Is he active? Yes.
Is he poweful? Yes.

[nexus]

How many books in the SW line are devoted to playing or using the force? Now, how many are devoted to being a criminal or trader? I think it is fairly safe to say in the Rise of the Empire era that the overwhelming majority of games are going to feature Jedi. To turn this argument on its nose for a second, we could play DC in San Diego and then not have to worrry about the HoJ.


Well, for one things, we're talking about the role playing game, not the books. For another, there have been series of books based on characters other than Jedi.

Yes, you could play in San Diego or some other city, but Hudson City is the default Dark Champions setting and we're talking about the default. If the HOJ worked in another city, I wouldn't have a problem with him.

Players will typically be involved in the Jedi during the Rise era and since Yoda is Yoda and involved in managing the day to day affairs of Jedi to assume that the PCs do not know of him is nearing silly.


HoJ is ONE man, unless you have the twinky munchkin DM of the universe he can not be nearly everywhere you seem to think he is. He is active and doing his own thing like infiltrating and killing Card Shark - that takes time. If the man was as unlimited as you think he is written up to be then Hudson City would be an urban paradise but it is not - like Batman there just ain't enough of him to go around. In HC there is plenty of crime for everyone to stop.

How many man hours does HoJ devote to taking on the new Card Shark?
How many man hours does he take simply patrolling the streets?
How many man hours does he take investigating other organizations? (cause Steve included a whole bunch of them)
How many man hours does he spend in research?
How many man hours does he spend undercover?
How many man hours does he spend covering his Deep Covers?
How many man hours does he take training?
How many man hours does he take fulfilling bodily functions like sleeping & eating?

If you start to work those numbers you might find that he does not have a whole bunch of time for anything other than his pet project and keeping current on the street trends. Sure, he whacks a rapist or kiddie porn ring now and then but let's be serious he has only killed 600 to 700 people in his career - something that has spanned a decade (by speculation). Not even counting for multiple homicides that keeps his killing down to less than one person per 5 days. The HoJ is busy and he is one man and he does not have any cool hired help. To infer from his write up that he should be hanging around and ready to upstage the PCs is something that not only smacks of poor DMing, it flies in the face of any reality.

There are something more than 20-30 vigilantes in HC per 4th ED. Even keeping tabs on all of those Vigilantes would be well beyond the means of a single Vigilante/Villain.

Is he active? Yes.
Is he poweful? Yes.

He doesn't have to be everywhere, stopping every mugging and shooting every Jaywalker. He just has to show up for the "big" things, the things that will attract PC attention. There can't be -that- many of those types of things happening at once. The HOJ has stats similar to batman, immense skills and knowledge of the underworld. He's not going to miss anything "big" unless the gm pulls something out of his butt. Apparently, the man has an obsession rivalling Batman when it comes to fighting crime so I doubt he does much of anything else (if for no other reason than he has developed such godlike abilities at it). Only 600-700 people in 10 years? Look at this realistically, people who have been in wars have killed far fewer people than that unless they were dropping bombs or using artillery. He's hunted down and murdered mastermind crminals and personally shot down entire organizations on his own. You mean to tell me you don't think he's going to be on any major case that comes down the pike? Yes, the PCs don't have to run into him, as long as they stick to penny ante type material I personally, don't think PCs should be limited too in favor of one bloated NPC. And you still haven't answere my question about if you have to constantly make excuses why the HOJ isn't there, why bother taking up space with him at all?

In any event, I'm not gonna to use him. I'd prefer space wasn't wasted on the guy that could be used for something actually useful. Or at the least, he was toned to something approaching reasonable for interaction with the PCs.

[Edsel]

In 4th Ed the HoJ was the most powerful character in the book. When I used him in the Omega Team Campaign (http://www.killershrike.com/TheOmegaTeam/OmegaTeam.htm) I modified him somewhat. I got rid of his extra-dimensional powers and turned him into more of a Batman type character (power-level wise). There were a plethora of Vigilantes available in the 4th Ed DC setting and I only really used three of them (all modified to my taste): HoJ, Crusader and Dancer.

The HoJ became my trump card and foil. If I ever screwed-up my power levels bad enough I'd have the HoJ available to pull the PC's fat out of the fire. (Fortunately I never had to). He was a contact that very rarely traded some information with the PCs about certain goings on. Lastly he was featured in the semi-regular Hudson City Times newspaper handout that I made.

Originally the HoJ had killed previous versions of the Card Shark. But the current Card Shark was extremely cautious because of it. It had taken the HoJ years to track down some of the previous Card Sharks and this one was going to be even harder to find. There were enough plots and going on in the city that the PCs could only hope to deal with a couple at a time. The others would often be dealt with by the HoJ. Besides there were lots of criminals in Hudson City. Many were dealt with by the HoJ. Many were not known to be criminals until they turned up dead with a card and subsequent investigations found out what they had secretly been up to.

How ever the new Hudson City is presented it will be just a setting. I am sure I'll use a lot of it and change a lot of it, just like I did the previous edition. If you don't want the HoJ running around over shadowing your characters then don't use him. You can keep the history intact without changing anything. For all your characters know the HoJ retired last week. Perhaps an enemy finally figured out who he was and slipped something into his drink. Maybe he wants to retire and is looking at your PC group as likely sucessors to his previous work.

I have no problem with the HoJ and, in my last campaign, neither did the players. I am looking forward to the new Hudson City with eager anticipation.

[Eosin]

Well, for one things, we're talking about the role playing game, not the books. For another, there have been series of books based on characters other than Jedi.

Funny, I was talking about RPGs. There are either 4 or 5 books on force using characters in the new RPG line and ---yep, you guessed it --- zero on playing traders and bounty hunters.

Yes, you could play in San Diego or some other city, but Hudson City is the default Dark Champions setting and we're talking about the default. If the HOJ worked in another city, I wouldn't have a problem with him.

And a campaign featuring Jedi - hence Yoda and Mace is the default of SW games.

[nexus]

Funny, I was talking about RPGs. There are either 4 or 5 books on force using characters in the new RPG line and ---yep, you guessed it --- zero on playing traders and bounty hunters.

Well, that might be because it requires more mechanics to play a force weilder, with scads of powers than an essentially non powered trader. How much do you really need to expand? I played the old d6 version of Star Wars and there was a more balanced approach to Star Wars

But that's a thread derail in any case.


How ever the new Hudson City is presented it will be just a setting. I am sure I'll use a lot of it and change a lot of it, just like I did the previous edition. If you don't want the HoJ running around over shadowing your characters then don't use him. You can keep the history intact without changing anything. For all your characters know the HoJ retired last week. Perhaps an enemy finally figured out who he was and slipped something into his drink. Maybe he wants to retire and is looking at your PC group as likely sucessors to his previous work.


And that is how I pretty much intend to "use" him if at all. But the thread was asking about opinions on the HOJ and his inclusion.

[nexus]

And a campaign featuring Jedi - hence Yoda and Mace is the default of SW games.

I've played in 6 Star Wars campaigns. 3 during the movie period, 2 afterward, 1 during the Clone wars. 2 of those featured Jedi as PCs. In none of them did Mace or Yoda make an appearance or were mentioned even in passing. I think in one Yoda was dead, but I'm not sure. In my experience, that has been pretty much the standard. The Galaxy is a very big place. Lots of room to move around without bumping into uber characters. Hudson City is not nearly so big.

[nexus]

This has gotten plenty heated and seems to be reaching a stalemate. I've given my opinion clearly I think so I will bow out. Thanks for the discussion. It did help me clarify my thoughts on the matter.

[Eosin]

And you still haven't answere my question about if you have to constantly make excuses why the HOJ isn't there, why bother taking up space with him at all?

My answer is that no one man can be everywhere. Why make excuses? He is what he is and the overwhelming majority of people like him per the poll.

I can understand if your DM bites it and beats him over your head constantly why you would fear uberpowerful characters in your game but mine (Edsell) fortunately does not possess this trait.

HoJ works well and in Hudson City Blues he worked exactly as intended. MOST of us (that is those who buy Hero books) want to see him and I think that the fiscal reality of the situation is that while you have every right to dislike the HoJ - you will have to take him with a lump of sugar.

[nexus]

My answer is that no one man can be everywhere. Why make excuses? He is what he is and the overwhelming majority of people like him per the poll.

I can understand if your DM bites it and beats him over your head constantly why you would fear uberpowerful characters in your game but mine (Edsell) fortunately does not possess this trait.

HoJ works well and in Hudson City Blues he worked exactly as intended. MOST of us (that is those who buy Hero books) want to see him and I think that the fiscal reality of the situation is that while you have every right to dislike the HoJ - you will have to take him with a lump of sugar.

The "overwhelming majority" of people that come to this forum, voted in this poll, etc. Not a precise or scientific sampling of all Hero players. For that matter, I know about 20 or so Hero players that feel about the same I do about HOJ and they never come here, so I wouldn't get the impression that there are screaming mobs shouting the HOJ's return. :)

[Eosin]

I've played in 6 Star Wars campaigns. 3 during the movie period, 2 afterward, 1 during the Clone wars. 2 of those featured Jedi as PCs. In none of them did Mace or Yoda make an appearance or were mentioned even in passing. I think in one Yoda was dead, but I'm not sure. In my experience, that has been pretty much the standard. The Galaxy is a very big place. Lots of room to move around without bumping into uber characters. Hudson City is not nearly so big.

Quick question if you will - "During the movie period" Are you are referring to the Originals? My intent was to illustrate that during the Rise of the Empire (meaning the current movies) Jedi PCs would be intimate with Yoda. I don't disagree with them not knowing Yoda or Mace circa the Originals or later but then they are dead for most of that period.

SW games also generally play in some era other than the Original trilogy in my experience sionce there are only 3 cannon Jedi characters alive. Players want to be Jedi, in my subjective experience, and that means that they generally dislike playing in the Original Trilogy.

[Eosin]

The "overwhelming majority" of people that come to this forum, voted in this poll, etc. Not a precise or scientific sampling of all Hero players. For that matter, I know about 20 or so Hero players that feel about the same I do about HOJ and they never come here, so I wouldn't get the impression that there are screaming mobs shouting the HOJ's return. :)


Nor would your twenty friends constitue a mandate to remove him. We can only go by what we see and IMO the Hero Forum is probably a vague representation of Hero PURCHASERS, not exact to be sure but at least as represenitive as Congress.

[nexus]

Nor would your twenty friends constitue a mandate to remove him. We can only go by what we see and IMO the Hero Forum is probably a vague representation of Hero PURCHASERS, not exact to be sure but at least as represenitive as Congress.

My point was, I wouldn't assume "victory" because of an informal poll on a website. There are a great deal of Hero purchasers that don't come to this forum. There are allot of people that come to this forum that didn't vote on this poll.

To answer your question, the Star Wars games I was referring as during the movies were set during the original trilogy. I should have been clear on that, sorry.

[NightStick]

Ya Know, All that I got out of this thread was that Steve has pretty well done his job by getting us all (albeit a sampling) to discuss what else......
His game.
Any product out there can not be "FANTASTIC" for every one who buys into it. The best that it could hope for, would be that we all discuss ways that we adapt it to meet our needs. This means that for some of us, it would be a total waste, while others would see it as the saving grace - or crutch.
I am not a GM, nor do I aspire to be one, but I appreciate my friends who are GM's that adapt the tools that are available to facilitate an enjoyable slide down the campaign trail.

Getting back to direct words on this thread (rather than generalities & subtleties), IMO, the HoJ is a tool that when used properly, enhances the entire HC experience.

I bow to Steve :hail:

[KA.]

You know, we could actually resolve two somewhat acrimonious threads at the same time.

Why haven't Dr. Destroyer and Takofanes taken over the world?

The Harbinger of Justice! :jawdrop:

He really is the "Bat God" of the Champions Universe.

Sure, he is tough on street crime in Hudson City, but no one knows what he does the rest of the time. :sneaky:

He is the one tracking down the last artifact that Takofanes needs to open the Gateway of Doom!

He is the one who prevents Dr. D from getting the sample of Upsidaisium that he needs to complete his latest world-domination sceme!

That's why he doesn't step on the Dark Champions characters' toes all the time, or butt into every major case, he is too busy elsewhere, maintaining the balance between the Uber-villains and the 350-point Heroes!

Just a suggestion (and mostly kidding :D )

KA.

[ThothAmon]

HoJ is an example of what we call a 'munchkin' character...

...i.e. the kind of setting/rules exploitative PC that someone brings to a game session claiming that "he is built on legitimate XP"...

...and as soon as you see the character sheet you think:

(A) this guy is a sad powergamer
(B) what kind of halfwit campaign logic led to this abortion
(C) his GM was a useless cretin
(D) all of the above

The HoJ as written in 4th edition Dark Champions serves as a prime example of what not to do when playing/GMing the Hero system. It was a sad thing to see a well written genre-specific book effectively spoiled by devoting space to a character that was so contrary to the rest of the setting.

As ever, YMMV.