What's wrong with Palladium?

[FenrisUlf]

Why do so many gamers seem to hate Palladium so much? I used to be a follower of their Rifts line, but I bugged when it became increasingly obvious that you had to buy literally every Palladium book to play it. Not just every book in the Rifts line, but every book period, as they casually tossed in references to their fantasy or martial arts or TMNT or whatever lines every ten pages or so.

Pity, as I liked the setting too.

[paigeoliver]

I have their Fantasy book, seems nice, never played it. I used to have TMNT, and that was, well, it was awesome, character generation in it was a real hoot.

[Lord Mhoram]

I didn't read it until after I had found HERO, and HERO fits my playstyle perfectly, so I didn't think much of Palladium. The problems to me are that it is clunky and has many holes and inconsistancies, and the rules are spread through way too many book, as you mentioned.

Kevin is apparently going to do a stripped to the bones version of the system (well he announced it, whether it actually comes out is another matter) that seems to fix most of those problems. I wouldn't play it (I have HERO after all), but it would be closer to something I would.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Palladium is a clunky RPG system that carries over a bunch of early concepts most games have abandoned (for good reason), is needlessly complex and generally does a poor job of reflecting the genre/source material it emulates. Palladium is the epitomy of what people use the term "old school" in a disparaging manner.

Some of the sourcebooks - NINJAS AND SUPERSPIES, for example - are well-written, but the system itself sucks pustulent zits. Probably the worst offender is the Palladium superheroes game (HEROES UNLIMITED? Is that the name? I honestly can't remember any more). It features such winning concepts as when you purchase some defensive powers, you roll percentile dice to see how well they work. You could get an 04, which means the equivalent of wearing a few layers of newspaper under your shirt, or 100, in which case you make Thor and the Hulk seem fragile - but either way it costs the same, since you just choose to go for the power but what you actually get is completely random. This is also a superhero game where being a guy with military training and a gun pretty much assures you of being vastly more competent than any other sort of character, such as aliens, mutants, etc. You'll notice, of course, how well that corresponds to the superhero comics, where guys like Thor, Superman and the Fantastic Four are worthless and the Punisher is the toughest person out there.

I could say more about my loathing for the Palladium System, but I just finished lunch and would rather think about more pleasant things.

[Gunrunner]

Ditto :sick:

Kramer said it all as far as why I hate the system. The Rifts setting however, I do enjoy. If Hero Games had come out with Rifts instead of Palladium, that would be the only game I'd play!

I want Post-Apocalypse/Fantasy/Dark Champions/Mecha Hero! :thumbup:

[Old Man]

sucks pustulent zits.

Wow, I gotta remember that one.

[Chimpira]

I have to admit that for a while I preferred their Palladium Fantasy setting to AD&D but that was a while ago. It worked best when it was simple as dirt but when adding more complexity to the system it just does not hold out. Heroes Unlimited is a joke and although they have made quite a few revisions on the system, like allowing Magic User and Psionics to be a viable class, it is still an inferior system. Now the system does allow you to choose your class and powers if you wished but it really does not have any middle ground so either you are unstoppable or you are a joke. If you roll there is a great chance that you would be better off buying a gun because some of the powers just will not combine right. In the old Heroes Unlimited system I would disallow some classes just because no one in their right mind would take them. They had the Physical Training class sounds good except that if you got powers you can take pretty much all the things that the physical training guy took. The combat system... (sigh) I just do not have enough time to talk about the combat system. The characters after a while all just feel redundant and unimaginative.

[sinanju]

I know little or nothing about the Palladium system. What I know is that when Primal Order book--which I really liked--came out, it including conversion notes for a number of game systems in the appendix (including GURPS, Champions and others, including Palladium's). The Palladium guy had a conniption and raised holy hell.

He's an ass, and I swore I'd never cross the street to pee on him if he were on fire. Hey, I can be unreasonable too. More reasonably, I'll never, ever contribute a dime to his wallet.

[philnicau]

I have to dissent from most of the posters on this thread, and state that i actually enjoy the Palladium system, especially Heroes Unlimited, its one of the best for playing semi-realistic super hero games where you have to worry about getting hurt or the effect your powers have on your clothes and the world around you, it also balances well highly skilled normals and supers, and excells in powered-suit heroes.
I accept that its not as free-form as Hero, but it doesn't involve as much number crunching either, both have their pluses and minuses.
I've had a lot of fun over the years playing both Champions and Heroes Unlimited.

[Captain Obvious]

Palladium seems to have made no efforts to create any sort of game balance. It seems like most of their games have a few uber classes that rock anything else in the game, to the extent that no one familiar with the game will play anything else.

In D&D, there were several spells, like fireball, that increased in damage by a die for every level of the caster, until it reached the kiloton range. Palladium saw this, and raised them by allowing spellcasters to throw the effect a number of times equal to their level per casting. That's right, a 10th level caster doesn't just get one 10d6 tacnuke, he gets to throw ten of them.

[Old Man]

I thought their spells didn't increase with character ability. They were just as is. Oh, and you used up magic points or some such to cast the spells.

I really hated the list of useless classes. I mean come on, in the world of RIFTS who's going to play a scientist, technician or fur trader?

[DoctorItron]

To be fair, Palladium does not suck. Like any game system, there are good things and bad things. IMO, the rules for Palladium are not very good, but the settings in some of their games are excellent:

What's wrong:
The rules are not consistent. Different books may have abilities with the same name, but the rules are slightly different in each book. Assuming that you play several different Palladium games, it's incredibly difficult to memorize the rules because the rules change ever-so-slightly between games.
No core rulebook. Too much stuff gets reprinted in each book.
The rules provide no hints as to the power level of different classes, short of inspecting classes line-by-line. New GMs can wind up with a dragon and a serf in the same game.
Too many character classes. Do we really need different classes for "American soldier", "British soldier", etc.?
Power escalation. A lot of Rifts books introduced uber-classes to outdo the uber-classes from prior books.
Not easily customizable. Heroes Unlimited, for example, is built for relatively low powered heroes. There's no easy way to scale the power level.

What's right about Palladium games:
The Rifts universe. The perfect post-apocalypse multigenre setting, IMO.
The Robotech setting, but I think they lost the license a few years ago :(
The Mechanoid setting.
Excellent GMing hints in some of the books. Not quite as good as Strike Force, but nothing will ever match that :)
Quick character creation.
Quick combat resolution.

[DoctorItron]

I know little or nothing about the Palladium system. What I know is that when Primal Order book--which I really liked--came out, it including conversion notes for a number of game systems in the appendix (including GURPS, Champions and others, including Palladium's). The Palladium guy had a conniption and raised holy hell.

He's an ass, and I swore I'd never cross the street to pee on him if he were on fire. Hey, I can be unreasonable too. More reasonably, I'll never, ever contribute a dime to his wallet.

I hear this complaint about Kevin Siembieda a lot. He's been a nice guy when I've spoken to him via email and at conventions. Maybe whoever wrote Primal Order didn't ask for permission, or asked and was for whatever reason turned down.

Hero Game' current policy, if I understand correctly, wouldn't allow Hero conversions to be printed without permission from Steve and Darren. If you printed a conversion book without asking, they might raise holy hell, too.

[BNakagawa]

The art was pretty good. The rules, not so good.

[sinanju]

I hear this complaint about Kevin Siembieda a lot. He's been a nice guy when I've spoken to him via email and at conventions. Maybe whoever wrote Primal Order didn't ask for permission, or asked and was for whatever reason turned down.

Hero Game' current policy, if I understand correctly, wouldn't allow Hero conversions to be printed without permission from Steve and Darren. If you printed a conversion book without asking, they might raise holy hell, too.

Could be. It was a long time ago, and he may have had a point. All I know is that his reaction left a very bad impression on me and I've had no occasion to change my mind since then.

[Doctor Otaku]

I used to play both Rifts and HU up until a few years ago. I just got tired of having to come up with more house rules to balance out all the broken mechanics that would pop up. I still like the concept of Rifts, I just can't choke down the game mechanics anymore. If Kevin Siembieda is planning to perform a much needed trimming of the rules fat from Palladium. I would suggest that he listen to those who still play and GM the system. So that what is left from the operation works.

[Chimpira]

I really hated the list of useless classes. I mean come on, in the world of RIFTS who's going to play a scientist, technician or fur trader?
I played a Field Scientist in their Robotech game. I had to. I just knew every other guy there was going to fly a big robot and I said screw it the class is there I am going to play it. The funny thing is that I became leader of the group and utilized everyone to their highest potential. Especially when we did not have the Veritechs to fly and had to rely on our skills. It just depends on what sort of game you are playing. If everyone is taking the Walking MDC monster? Yeah I think the Fur trader is going to be a smudge.

[Madstone]

I was introduced to Palladium through the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Other Strangeness game way back in high school. Liked the concept, but the system had a lot, a lot of problems. It wasn't until I tried RIFTS that I truly learned to hate, hate, HATE the system. Just so many very bad ideas, very munchkiny, and just ick.

That being said, Palladium produced what is my Questing Beast of RPG collecting: The Justice Machine supplement for Heroes Unlickitysplit or whatever it was called. That's because I'm a JM fan, however, and not a Palladium fan.

Palladium...*brrrr* :angst:

[Chimpira]

I was introduced to Palladium through the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Other Strangeness game way back in high school. Liked the concept, but the system had a lot, a lot of problems. It wasn't until I tried RIFTS that I truly learned to hate, hate, HATE the system. Just so many very bad ideas, very munchkiny, and just ick.

That being said, Palladium produced what is my Questing Beast of RPG collecting: The Justice Machine supplement for Heroes Unlickitysplit or whatever it was called. That's because I'm a JM fan, however, and not a Palladium fan.

Palladium...*brrrr* :angst:
I once owned that book. Much love for The Justice Machine.

[Worldmaker]

I'd love to answer the question, but I'd have no clue where to start...

[Vondy]

The system is ineptly named - it should be Pandemonium.

I always liked their settings, and did play the fantasy game between our AD&D and Chartmaster runs, but the system is amorphous, they reprint too much material with each book, and its heavily given to litanies of exceptions and excessive munchkinism.

[Solomon]

I'd rather not discuss the Palladium system - it's clunky, outdated, convoluted, munchkiny and inconsistent, but some people like clunky, outdated, munchkiny and inconsistent systems. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, honestly - I've played Rolemaster for years, after all. :o To each his own.

There are worse things than the systems itself IMHO. Palladium's editing is abysmal. Their rate of content recycling is unmatched by any other game company. They *can't* stick to a publishing schedule (missing a deadline once in a while is excusable, missing most of your deadlines is not). On the plus side, there's some clever writing in a few Paladium books - I especially like Bill Coffin's stuff.

[Magmarock]

Why do so many gamers seem to hate Palladium so much? I used to be a follower of their Rifts line, but I bugged when it became increasingly obvious that you had to buy literally every Palladium book to play it. Not just every book in the Rifts line, but every book period, as they casually tossed in references to their fantasy or martial arts or TMNT or whatever lines every ten pages or so.

Pity, as I liked the setting too.

Nothing wrong with Palladium... it's great source material for Hero! :D

Mags

[megaplayboy]

Wouldn't a "what's wrong with Keven Siembeda(sic)?" be more apropos?

[DoctorItron]

I'd rather not discuss the Palladium system - it's clunky, outdated, convoluted, munchkiny and inconsistent, but some people like clunky, outdated, munchkiny and inconsistent systems. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, honestly - I've played Rolemaster for years, after all. :o To each his own.

There are worse things than the systems itself IMHO. Palladium's editing is abysmal. Their rate of content recycling is unmatched by any other game company. They *can't* stick to a publishing schedule (missing a deadline once in a while is excusable, missing most of your deadlines is not). On the plus side, there's some clever writing in a few Paladium books - I especially like Bill Coffin's stuff.

Palladium isn't the only gaming company to consistently miss deadlines. Palladium was starting to do a commendable scheduling job just as I stopped playing Rifts, but I have no idea how they've done in the past few years.

Re. scheduling, look how long it took to get Hero 5th edition out :) I'm thankful that Steve Long has a crack habit of whatever it is that lets him churn out incredible volumes of quality text :D

[Jhamin]

The main problem with Palladium is that their core system stopped evolving fifteen years ago. After that they started writing books that included new character classes or equipment without actually playtesting how that fit into their rules set.
Back in the eighties, Palladium had a very respectable rules set in comparison to the other games on the market. Their main problem currently is that the rest of the gaming market has moved on and they haven't.
Of course, I sometimes hear this charge leveled at Hero too.

I also suspect that what playtesting gets done uses Siembiada's house rules, which somehow haven't made it into the books.



While I can no longer make myself play Palladium for more than a couple games, I still feel that they have some of the best settings in the industry.
-Rifts and After the Bombs are both among the most fun Post-Apoc settings in the industry (and see chaos-earth for Rifts in the first couple months after the disaster)
-Palladium Fantasy's setting is right up there with the Forgotten Realms in terms of generic fantasy gaming goodness.
-There are a series of world books attached to the Rifts line that include an entire game setting in a single book. Wormwood, Phase World, and more. I still mine these for ideas.

[Killer Shrike]

Some good concepts, but oh my god, the worst rules system of any "mainstream" rpg. I've always been shocked that people can play that game as is.

I could get over the clunky inconsistent and arcane mechanics. Even the absurd and totally illogical MDC concept could be dealt with. But the one thing that is completely endemic to the system is the absolute and total lack of game balance of any kind.

Now granted, it is a little more of an organic approach to take the stance of, hey, who said everyone was equally talented and "powerful". But Palladium completely ignores any sort of metagame logic that indicates that some kind of parity between starting and advancing characters is a worthy goal.

This total lack of internal balancing combined with a very fast & loose relationship with synergy results in a warm & damp environment ideal for the growth of munchkins and other forms of mold. In some games a munchkin at least needs a certain low cunning or skills in the field of "creative interpretation", but single celled organisms could munchkin out their PC's for a Palladium game.


There is a story that I heard once; don't know if it's true or not, but as the tale goes one of the original HERO's guys told Kevin Sembieda essentially "good concepts, crappy system" at a gaming convention. Probably just a rumor, but it's not outside the bounds of reality :D

[teh bunneh]

Like many folks here, I like the world concepts but don't much care for the mechanics.

The thing that completely turned me off of Palladium was an essay in "Villains Unlimited," in which Kevin S goes on at great length about how it is simply impossible for a person to knock another person unconscious. Any game designer who wastes a page and a half for a rant against one of the staple conventions of the superhero genre is missing a few cards from his deck, IMHO. :P

Bill.

[Vondy]

Like many folks here, I like the world concepts but don't much care for the mechanics.

The thing that completely turned me off of Palladium was an essay in "Villains Unlimited," in which Kevin S goes on at great length about how it is simply impossible for a person to knock another person unconscious...

Bill.
forget genre conventions. has he every been to a professional boxing match? or been hit in the head with a hard blunt object?

[Almafeta]

The system's great, especially when you get good writers like Wujcik to work with it.

It's the company's actions and KS's additudes towards his own customers that really turns people off.

[Koshka]

I know little or nothing about the Palladium system. What I know is that when Primal Order book--which I really liked--came out, it including conversion notes for a number of game systems in the appendix (including GURPS, Champions and others, including Palladium's). The Palladium guy had a conniption and raised holy hell.


I could have sworn I'd read that Pyramid Online automatically rejects any articles with Palladium stats or tie-ins because they don't want to have to deal with getting permission from Kevin Siembiada ... but I double-checked the writers guidelines and they don't mention Palladium at all.

(OTOH, they specifically list Champions as a game they're willing to print stuff for. Anyone else feel like flooding Steven Marsh's inbox with Hero articles? :hex: )

[Koshka]

forget genre conventions. has he every been to a professional boxing match? or been hit in the head with a hard blunt object?

Heck, I think we're up to three high school football players in NE who have been hauled off to the emergency room after legal but really, really hard hits. I don't recall offhand if they were actually knocked out, but since at least two of them had emergency head surgery ....

[THartman]

What's right about Palladium games:
Quick character creation.
Quick combat resolution.

After playing Palladium (fantasy), TMNT&OS, Robotech, Macross II AND Rifts, the fastest I ever got at making a character was the 1-hour mark. Maybe. If I was on a roll. SO much page-flipping and cross-reference. This skill raises this stat. That one raises these three. All by dice roll values. Back and forth and back again, all over the place. That's my biggest gripe - not only are your rolls random for your starting stats, but most of the bonuses your skills grant you to the stats are random. Everything is random. The first time I played Champions, I fell in love with point-based CharGen and with the exception of an AD&D2E game a friend of mine runs, I've never looked back.

I never found combat resolution to be fast in Palladium. No faster than any other game from the time... AD&D, Palladium, Gurps... They all seemed about the same for time. Okay, I'll give you, HERO fights could last a long time. And battletech, if you want to compare there. Right now, though, I'm used to Silhouette rules, which are insanely gritty - you want to avoid any combat if at all possible as it's so deadly that it'll probably be over in three to five turns. Each of which last only a couple minutes with experienced players.

But I'll agree, the settings are cool. I still have fond memories of Rifts, despite the serious game imbalances. I've thought now and then about rebuilding it for my own purposes in other gamesystems.

-Todd

Edit: Clarification - I played Gurps before Champions and even THEN I didn't want to go back to random-roll characters.

[Almafeta]

Nothing wrong with Palladium... it's great source material for Hero! :D

Just don't let them know about it. ;)

[teh bunneh]

On the character balance issue:

A friend of mine wanted to run a "pick-up" game of Rifts and told everyone to just bring their favorite xth-level character. He figured on us all bringing a bunch of MDC monsters -- Juicers, Glitterboys, baby Dragons, whatever. He didn't figure on someone bringing a "Cosmic Knight" from one of the later supplements. This dude could've eaten the rest of the team for breakfast and still been hungry afterwards. Things that were credible threats to the team were a cakewalk to him. His presence basically ruined the game -- "The monster attacks!" "We ready our weapons!" "I yawn and incinerate it."

Now, a lot of that can be chalked up to the GM -- after all, he's the one who said anything goes. But still, you'd think a game system would enforce *some* parity between characters of the same level in the same system. :thumbdown

Bill.

[JeffreyWKramer]

... you'd think a game system would enforce *some* parity between characters of the same level in the same system. :thumbdown


Well, in fairness, it used to be a rare game that did have any sort of parity. Hero always did - with everyone more or less equally competent, assuming competent build - as did CALL OF CTHULHU - everyone is equally helpless before the Great Old Ones - but until 3E, DnD didn't even *try* at parity. Historically, it's always been "wizards stink until around level 9, and by level 12+ nobody should even bother, and thieves and monks are never as competent overall as other characters." That's changed a fair bit in 3 and 3.5.

At worst, Palladium just exaggertes the lack of parity that used to be fairly common. As someone else noted, this just worsened as they kept adding new character classes that weren't balanced against old ones - but that happened in 2nd Edition ADnD, too, particularly with the wild disparity in power between the various character kits.

[Nyrath]

I remember the old newsprint edition of Mechanoids. I was bemused to see that a battleship had five million hit points. I had a mental image of a persistent fellow with a dagger stabbing the the battleship for the next couple of decades in an attempt to destroy it.

[Jhamin]

I think my issue with Palladium really boils down to Offense vs. Defense.

While everyone gets a zillion attacks/round, it is easier to block than to hit and even if you do land one you usually do 2d6 damage to their 400 SDC.

It takes a long time for anyone to get worried about the abuse they are taking. Unless of course Megadamage is involved.

The incredible disparity between MDC and SDC damage made sense in Robotech (where MDC was invented) but it makes less and less sense as Rifts continues.

[Samaritan]

Yeah, I agree... the system is almost laughably broken. That said, the lines for Nightbane (formerly Nightspawn), Mystic China (sourcebook for Ninjas & Superspies), and Robotech made for some good reading material! :) (And let's not forget the Manhunter crossover book and the Wormwood dimension book!)

[Adventus]

I am always amazed that Palladium is always criticized for play balance. I have found that Palladium system expects you to have the gm balance his campaign. If you have a Knight of the cosmic forge in tha game, The gm just needs to make sure that he scales the opposition to that character and make sure the rest of the players are equally as capable. Or take the player aside and tell him/her that character doesn't fit what you are trying to run. It is the GM responsibility in the end to make sure the campaign is balanced per the character that are being played. The same as it is in any game.

I have personally run Heroes Unlimited. I have enjoyed it immensely. In my experience, combat goes relatively fast. You just need to enforce the rules system. I even had fun playing in it. Except when the Gm didn't enforce any sort of game balance. Of course, I have had that happen in Champions as well. This causes munchkinism to prolifirate, cusing this kind of negative behavior.

Balance should be enforced by the gm in any game system.

[Jhamin]

Balance should absolutely be enforced by the GM.

Problem is that even if you do enforce a pretty well rounded PC group, you still end up with problems in play.

I ran a Rifts game for years & had a blast. It also got messier and messier the longer it went on. Each new supplement changed the power balance of the world. When each new sourcebook came out & forced the PCs to ditch their old equipment for the new equipment they could now aquire it got tedious.
When the PC who was supposed to be a combat monster was suddenly a second rate nobody compared to the new combat OCCs that were being introduced it was not only lame, it violated his character.
When the Glitterboy pilot treasured his "best of the best of the best" pre-cataclysm power armor, it got a little sad when there were arbitrarily more powerful suits introduced in a new supplement.

So I eventually switched to Palladium Fantasy. Where the same thing happened. The gladiator started out amazing (she was from a supplent after all) right up until a new book came out and introduced army grunts that could do anything she could plus more because they belonged to a really big empire. Magic was rare and precious, until every NPC had an artifact of the ancient onces. and so on.

I was perfectly able to balance my game, but after a while I noticed that I had houseruled half the combat system, the entire damage system, and was letting people play the concepts behind new OCCs but then totally rewriting them to fit into the established power level of the first couple books.
I got tired of it.

And reading this thread makes me feel I am not the only one.

[JohnOSpencer]

As far as I'm concerned, Palladium begins and ends with Robotech. It was IMHO, the best game they put out. Granted, I've played and enjoyed just about every one of their games, but Robotech is one I would consider playing today.

John Spencer

[oberon]

Well, my opinions have been well stated already :)

Liked the Rifts setting, but after going through a half-dozen characters in as many sessions, I realised I would have to play the latest bit of cheese in the latest supplement to remain competitive with the rest of the party (more specifically the opponents designed with them in mind).

Loved Robotech. I think it all worked well, simply because we only had a few books, which kept the power escalation down.
We were playing in an Invid campaign. The remainder of the party were all Veritech pilots (ALL of them :stupid: ) and I had a ball playing a Techie/Mechanic. I wasn't even left out of the battles, since I fulfilled a sniper role. While the enemy was engaging the obvious threat, I'd be taking potshots at them with a rocket launcher :sneaky:

oberon

[Samaritan]

As far as I'm concerned, Palladium begins and ends with Robotech. It was IMHO, the best game they put out. Granted, I've played and enjoyed just about every one of their games, but Robotech is one I would consider playing today.

John Spencer

I'd go with you here, though the "Return of the Masters" book had the feel of 'homebrew' to it. Mecha Su-Dai? Not a bad thing, mind you, but I don't recall a lot of the stuff from the series. And as I understand it, their tech specs were way off from official numbers. Still, it worked within the game so I never payed much attention to that fact.

Though, I always felt the Veritech pilots in Macross got too much facetime; it wasn't until Southern Cross (a sorely under-appreciated timeline and supplement) that I felt PC OCCs were becoming more equal.

[JohnOSpencer]

I'd go with you here, though the "Return of the Masters" book had the feel of 'homebrew' to it. Mecha Su-Dai? Not a bad thing, mind you, but I don't recall a lot of the stuff from the series. And as I understand it, their tech specs were way off from official numbers. Still, it worked within the game so I never payed much attention to that fact.

Though, I always felt the Veritech pilots in Macross got too much facetime; it wasn't until Southern Cross (a sorely under-appreciated timeline and supplement) that I felt PC OCCs were becoming more equal.

I agree on both counts. Some of the Return of the Masters stuff was Ok, and other was "WTF?"

Southern Cross was very equal, and we played quite a bit of it. But I think the crown gem was Invid Invasion. This was the first RPG book I was ever "exited" about. It had the most potential and the fighter pilots didn't always get to run around in the Mecha all the time. I am actaully thinking of trying to convert Invid Invasion stuff to HERO.

John

[JMcL63]

I remember the old newsprint edition of Mechanoids. I was bemused to see that a battleship had five million hit points. I had a mental image of a persistent fellow with a dagger stabbing the the battleship for the next couple of decades in an attempt to destroy it.ROFL! ;)

[Wil Hyral]

Palladium hasn't evolved hardly at all in the 20+ years they've been around.

Other than that, I don't see anything wrong with them. I like Rifts enough, but one of my favorites will always be Hero Unlimited.

[Samaritan]

On the Robotech count, anybody remember the "Magic of Palladium" newsletter that they did for awhile? There was an 'official' Veritech car in one of those issues... never DID get a chance to use it.

Man, I would SO LOVE TO SEE an official, licensed Robotech game again...

Wasn't too fond of the Sentinels RPG... just didn't have the 'wartime' feel of the Macross/SC saga.

I agree with the Invid Invasion bit. Great setting for combat and RPing alike.

[Nuadha]

What is right with Palladium:
The art. Palladium Books have some of the coolest black and white artists.

The original Palladium Fantasy. It worked a lot better than AD&D. Recently they have screwed it up by making it more like their other games.

The Rifts setting. The Rifts setting is a lot of fun.

Erick Wujick. His TMNT character generation system was a lot of fun and Mystic China is one of the best sourcebooks available to any GM that is running a game using mystical Chinese elements. (I use it a lot in the Buffy game I run these days.)

What is wrong with Palladium:
The system. It had a ton of flaws that they have never attempted to address. One of my major complaints about the basic system is this: Character always miss when they roll a one through four. That is a 20% chance to miss every time, no matter how skilled your character is or how stationary the target is. Heck, even if the target is trying to get hit by you, yuo will miss the same percentage of the time. NOw if the target is actively defending, you will compare your total attack roll to their defense roll so that works better, but for anything else Bullseye would have the same percentage chance of missing as "Captain Can't Hit the Side of a Barn."

Power-gamers. The sourcebooks are a power gamer's dream as each Rifts sourcebook came out with more and more powerful stuff for players to be able to exploit.

Random Character Generation. This is always a minus, in my opinion.

Automatic Rifles. Do a full burst with an automatic rifle? You do more damage than the strongest supers could ever hope to do. I played Heroes Unlimited in high school and eventually all my power-gaming friends were carrying around machine guns in the game because they were so much better than anything else available.

[Susano]

I have a few RIFTS suppliments and am interested in converting some creatures to HERO. Does anyone have even a basic breakdown of RIFTS stats to HERO (at the very least?). A lot of the rest I'm not concerned about.

[Blue]

Palladium were the makers of Heroes Unlimited right? I barely even recall the system. I never owned a copy, but I did play it. I honestly can't recall if my character Anthem began as a Superworld Character then was ported to HU or vice versa, but of course she's in Champions now since those campaigns are dead.

I don't recall any major difficulties, and I had fun. That's about it. If I'd been a GM and had to design a bunch of things I'd probably have a stronger opinion.

[Greg]

I have a few RIFTS suppliments and am interested in converting some creatures to HERO. Does anyone have even a basic breakdown of RIFTS stats to HERO (at the very least?). A lot of the rest I'm not concerned about.

I sent you an email through the board with some stuff I've compiled from here. Stats are D&D range 3-18 with bonuses for various classes pushing them higher so they pretty much just convert straight across. The odd thing is that strength is measured differently depending on the type of creature, so for example a cyborg with 30 strength can lift more than a normal human with 30 strength but less than a dragon with 30 strength.

[Susano]

I sent you an email through the board with some stuff I've compiled from here. Stats are D&D range 3-18 with bonuses for various classes pushing them higher so they pretty much just convert straight across. The odd thing is that strength is measured differently depending on the type of creature, so for example a cyborg with 30 strength can lift more than a normal human with 30 strength but less than a dragon with 30 strength.

:jawdrop:

Wow... that makes a lot of sense....

Not.

[Captain Obvious]

I suppose you could make the argument that their muscles are equally strong, but there are leverage issues that give bigger guys or guys with engineered bodies the advantage, but then you have to wonder why they didn't just take that into consideration when designing the character templates instead of adding unnecessary BS.

[Pentoth]

Quote:Originally Posted by Greg
I sent you an email through the board with some stuff I've compiled from here. Stats are D&D range 3-18 with bonuses for various classes pushing them higher so they pretty much just convert straight across. The odd thing is that strength is measured differently depending on the type of creature, so for example a cyborg with 30 strength can lift more than a normal human with 30 strength but less than a dragon with 30 strength.



Wow... that makes a lot of sense....

Not.

The whole idea is that it is a scale so that you don't get stats in the 100+ mark. It just makes for easier bookeeping. Palladiums rules are more RPG in mind and less wargammerish. It's not perfect however the set up works well for what they are looking to do.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Wow... this was some particularly bizarre thread necromancy... and it wasn't even from Bubba! ;)

[lemming]

Wow... this was some particularly bizarre thread necromancy... and it wasn't even from Bubba! ;)

He'd been sitting on that post for four years. Finally, it was time!

[Lucius]

Like many folks here, I like the world concepts but don't much care for the mechanics.

The thing that completely turned me off of Palladium was an essay in "Villains Unlimited," in which Kevin S goes on at great length about how it is simply impossible for a person to knock another person unconscious. Any game designer who wastes a page and a half for a rant against one of the staple conventions of the superhero genre is missing a few cards from his deck, IMHO. :P

Bill.

forget genre conventions. has he every been to a professional boxing match? or been hit in the head with a hard blunt object?

And if not....why not?


The system's great, especially when you get good writers like Wujcik to work with it.

It's the company's actions and KS's additudes towards his own customers that really turns people off.

Err...umm....no, I don' think so. See below...


The odd thing is that strength is measured differently depending on the type of creature, so for example a cyborg with 30 strength can lift more than a normal human with 30 strength but less than a dragon with 30 strength.


:jawdrop:

Wow... that makes a lot of sense....

Not.

And from my own experience – I still remember playing Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles – I would have to say, no, the system is not “great.”

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary thinks sitting on a post for four years would be uncomfortable, unless you're an Eastern Orthodox saint. Actually it probably wasn't comfortable for them, either....

[Vulcan]

I give Palladium full credit for coming up with creative, innovative, and interesting settings to play in.

It's just their system that sucks. http://www.herogames.com/forums/images/icons/sick.gif

The 'everyone misses 20% of the time' has been mentioned. What has not been mentioned is the other side of the equasion: If you take no defensive action, you will be hit 80% of the time. Period. :doi:

In other words, unless you blow an action to dodge, the guy running down the street shooting at you is very likely to hit. Statistics notwithstanding.

The system totally blows chunks, which is a shame considering the settings they can come up with. TMNT was expanded greatly from the source material, the Macross/Robotech material was good, I'll give a nod to Rifts for sheer innovation and creativity, and the Ninjas & Superspies book was excellent. Too bad all that uplifting material is all tied to the 200 ton anchor of a system.

[Spence]

I hear this complaint about Kevin Siembieda a lot. He's been a nice guy when I've spoken to him via email and at conventions.

Are you sure it was him and not a pod person :eek:


But seriously, I played the Fantasy version for a while because I liked it better than what D&D was becoming at the time. When I started to shift to Rifts I noticed some things that struck me as wrong so I asked on the board if it was a typo or if I missed something. KS responded with a venomous reply about how he was tired of vicious attacks by trolls and I was immediately banned. apparently I hit a nerve.

But on the plus side it eliminated an whole series of books from consideration for purchase saving me mucho dollars :D

[bubba smith]

Wow... this was some particularly bizarre thread necromancy... and it wasn't even from Bubba! ;)
at least i'm not the only one

[Spence]

at least i'm not the only one

But we'll blame you anyway.....it's easier that way



:sneaky:

[Shoutybloke]

Odly, I've really enjoyed every game of palladium that I've played. I think if it didn't have a class/level based system, the rest of the rules are okay.

Heroes unlimited sucks though. 5 pages of setting advice, a combat system, and the rest of the book is character classes? Fail.

[Roter Baron]

Heroes Unlimited was my first superheroes game (got it from the "used items" bin back in the days). Gmed a very short while, bought the second edition, needed adventures, bought Champions 3rd Edition module "Target Hero", saw rules for knockback (very much missed in Heroes Unlimeted - now introduced in a very clunky fashion), and got me some Champions!

I do have some Palladium stuff (gonna get me Dead Reign on Tuesday), but I do not consider to play any of it. Just too bothersome.

One problem I always had with Heroes Unlimted was (aside from game balance questions): Do you really have to slug like stupid on each an everyone till he finally gives in and say "Uncle" or drops dead? Any other way to defeat a villian than to pummel him down to negative hit points? And waht about the pcs? Are they only defeated if they are almost killed?

Still don't like that in a supers game.

And I am still looking for a good system for TMNT&OS (nope, not HERO - need something Fast & Furious but Savage Worlds it ain't either). Any ideas?

[Spence]

And I am still looking for a good system for TMNT&OS (nope, not HERO - need something Fast & Furious but Savage Worlds it ain't either). Any ideas?

If you are looking for something other than Hero, I like the mechanics for 'Two Fisted Tales' by Precis Intermedia. It has a fun quick play feel with simple mechanics and resolution.

[Sketchpad]

I'll agree that Palladium has some neat ideas ... but that's where it stops for me. The system is antiquated and really needs someone else at the helm to guide it into a better place (as well as someone to do the layout and put things in easier to find places). But the ideas are kind of neat. I looked at the new Dead Reign game and there's some neat things to use in it.

[Captain Obvious]

And I am still looking for a good system for TMNT&OS (nope, not HERO - need something Fast & Furious but Savage Worlds it ain't either). Any ideas?

Unisystem is pretty fast moving and easy to learn. There's not a generic Unisystem rulebook that I'm aware of, but there are several games in print that use it (Terra Primate, All Flesh Must Be Eaten) and the core of the system is easily separated from setting specific stuff.

[incrdbil]

Palladium has had some nice settings.

Sadly, it has pathetic rules, no game balance, and a creator with an ego that now has a measurable gravitic effect due to its size.

Some of the core concepts of the game were out-dated by the 80's. The inability to change may have somethign to do with the effects of gravity mentioned above.

Other problems with their products comes from the anytiquated, even amateurish layout, editing, and proofing. I've seen home-printed game modules with higher production values than Palldium product.

The sad, clunky, poorly made rules are badly organized and hard to reference. I'd rather have an atomic wedgie while wearing course grade sandpaper underwear than run or play another Palladium game.

[Spence]

I'd rather have an atomic wedgie while wearing course grade sandpaper underwear than run or play another Palladium game.

There should be laws about saying things like that.....

I just spewed coffee through my nose......:nonp:

[penemue]

I liked the first Palladium Fantasy Game. I liked the races and the coin system. Wolfen were cool and had an interesting background. Some nice pencil work in that core book. The fairies and the dragons were most memorable. I also liked the fact that experience was given for role playing, not just looting and slaying. I quickly switched from AD&D to Palladium after I read the Parrying and Dodging rules. It became a house rule when my group wanted to play D&D again.
I picked up Heroes Unlimited, Beyond the Supernatural, the spy game they had, but drew the line at Rifts. It just looked too.. .munchinky for me. I could not imagine running anything like that as a GM.
I liked that the Palladium Fantasy game had merchants and noble classes. There were some good ideas in that book, too bad everything went to hell so fast.
Interesting that this thread has revived since the whole concept of retro gaming has become so popular.

[Admiral C]

I've only played one Palladium game ever, not long enough to judge. But I did try and run a Rifts game once and looking through the book was maddening. Disjointed was the best way of describing it. I remember discovering the saving throws in the middle of the Hand to Hand combat section and just sitting there blankly staring at the page trying to reconcile why it was there and having that thought crowded out by some of the other rules I saw that were concretely connected to other rules but no information on how/when to use them.

I'm a pretty thorough person when I start a game even if I have to be quick and another thing that stuck with me was that equipment had no list formatting where I could pick and choose things pretty quickly.

That said I do have a Palladium fantasy book somewhere and a few cheap sourcebooks. Some good ideas, some nice artwork. I was trying to shoehorn the Wolfen Empire into Turakian Age with no success.

[Susano]

Mystic China is loaded with neat ideas -- once you dig them out.

[Admiral C]

Mystic China is loaded with neat ideas -- once you dig them out.

Isn't there two of these books? I bought Rifts Japan and wanted to do a HERO version but I remember that it talked about Rifts China as being far to dangerous to visit, ever. But from what i could tell all the Rifts books were like that, if the book you were reading mentioned it it was too dangerous to go to, until the book for it was published.

[Susano]

Mystic China is a different book. There's also Rifts Japan and Rifts China... actually, I think there are two Rifts China books.

[Lord Mhoram]

Other problems with their products comes from the antiquated, even amateurish layout, editing, and proofing. I've seen home-printed game modules with higher production values than Palladium product.

Apparently up until the "Crisis of Treachery" Kevin did cut and past layout by hand. He didn't use the computer. Even 3 or 4 years ago. From what I have heard, a computer is used now though.

[Spence]

Other problems with their products comes from the anytiquated, even amateurish layout, editing, and proofing. I've seen home-printed game modules with higher production values than Palldium product.


Apparently up until the "Crisis of Treachery" Kevin did cut and past layout by hand. He didn't use the computer. Even 3 or 4 years ago. From what I have heard, a computer is used now though.

Well computers don't mean much.

Take WotC and D&D 4th. Forget spelling and layout errors, try 22 pages of errors in just the core books. They type of errors that involve a few words replaced by paragraphs or entire columns or text replaced.

Say, you don't think WotC hired KS to proof D&D 4th do you?


:sneaky:

[bubba smith]

i owned as copy of HU
i could never figure out if martial arts heroes were SPECIAL training or PHYSICAL training
i linked ninjas and superspies better for that reason

[Lord Liaden]

I've enjoyed several RIFTS books, especially the earlier ones, for their interesting ideas. Yes, the system is clunky, the presentation is confused, and the character classes are munchkinny and unbalanced. But once you accept all that and just go with it, the setting can be a lot of fun. :)

I'm especially fond of the Pantheons of the Multiverse sourcebook for its updated take on mythic gods. For some reason I get a particular kick out of Hermes' handheld rail gun, "the Herminator." :cool:

I've seen a lot of fan conversion of RIFTS to HERO, and IMO it's a good fit to the setting system-wise. RIFTS is one of the ultimate cross-genre game settings, and nobody does cross-genre better than HERO.

[Sketchpad]

Apparently up until the "Crisis of Treachery" Kevin did cut and past layout by hand. He didn't use the computer. Even 3 or 4 years ago. From what I have heard, a computer is used now though.
Using a computer = good. Using Word or Publisher for layout = bad. They need a designer to work on their books and make them look decent. Plus they need someone to organize info better.

[Spence]

Using a computer = good. Using Word or Publisher for layout = bad. They need a designer to work on their books and make them look decent. Plus they need someone to organize info better.

Ah....but then someone would have to admit the need......which would also in some people's minds be the same as admitting fault.

Can't have that now :rolleyes:

[Admiral C]

Mystic China is a different book. There's also Rifts Japan and Rifts China... actually, I think there are two Rifts China books.
It was Rifts China I was thinking of. I got it confused with Mystic China. I remember my FLGS owner came back from GAMA with a autographed one by Kevin Siembedia and how it was a big deal because KS had eschewed GAMA for a number of years and this was that was the first year he had gone back. He offered it to me first but I passed on it.

[FenrisUlf]

This is also a superhero game where being a guy with military training and a gun pretty much assures you of being vastly more competent than any other sort of character, such as aliens, mutants, etc. You'll notice, of course, how well that corresponds to the superhero comics, where guys like Thor, Superman and the Fantastic Four are worthless and the Punisher is the toughest person out there.


Well, if we're talking about an issue by Garth Ennis, it's not that far wrong.

[mirage]

Well computers don't mean much.

Take WotC and D&D 4th. Forget spelling and layout errors, try 22 pages of errors in just the core books. They type of errors that involve a few words replaced by paragraphs or entire columns or text replaced.

Say, you don't think WotC hired KS to proof D&D 4th do you?


:sneaky:

Computers mean a lot.

They decrease the time it takes for you to get the errors to the printer. :D

[Killer Shrike]

Palladium et al...great concepts, horrible execution. Or as we used to say in the Marines...Good Initiative, Poor Judgement.


Still, I had lots of fun playing RIFTS and After The Bomb and Soldiers and Superspies.

On the other hand, the group I was playing those games with never took Palladium seriously; we basically all competed to see who could make the most broken character and engage in the most absurd actions. Part of the fun was just being ridiculous and metagaming the busted system to the max. Success or failure was measured in the screams of outrage and bursts of uncontrollable laughter. The games were surreal, to say the least. Cheesy is also a good word for it.

[ercarlson1974]

My Palladium days are thankfully behind me. I liked the Rifts concept at first, but the setting quickly got so broken that it lost its appeal. Paging through some of the supplements showed me that you had to build a horribly munchkiny character to have even a chance of survival. Maximum MDC, the only way to go! I fiddled around with Robotech for a while, but it quickly lost its appeal too. Heroes Unlimited was my most-played game, mainly because it played right into the hands of power gamers like I was at the time.

On the skills front, negative modifiers piled up so fast that even basic tasks became insurmountable obstacles. As one example, the Hardware: Weapons character's weapon modification skill suffered an automatic -15% penalty just for modifying a revolver (adding a barrel, changing the cylinder, whatever). At least Hero allows you to build penalty skill levels to overcome negative mods.

The basic concepts behind the powers were all right in my mind. Translating them to game play was humorous at best, horribly broken at worst. Fortunately, back then I cared little for consistency in storytelling; I wanted to be the biggest, baddest brick on the block, and Palladium scratched that itch well.

Kevin S was in severe need of an editor and a designer to build a proper layout in his books. He had a particular zeal for overuse of commas. My struggles with translating his "writing" became one more reason I drifted away from the system. I did give Heroes Unlimited 2nd edition a chance when it came out. It was a marginal improvement, but that's all I can say in its defense.

I can sum all this up in three words: Long Live Hero!!

[bubba smith]

Palladium et al...great concepts, horrible execution. Or as we used to say in the Marines...Good Initiative, Poor Judgement.


Still, I had lots of fun playing RIFTS and After The Bomb and Soldiers and Superspies.

On the other hand, the group I was playing those games with never took Palladium seriously; we basically all competed to see who could make the most broken character and engage in the most absurd actions. Part of the fun was just being ridiculous and metagaming the busted system to the max. Success or failure was measured in the screams of outrage and bursts of uncontrollable laughter. The games were surreal, to say the least. Cheesy is also a good word for it.actually thats ninjas and superspies

[SCUBA Hero]

Kevin S was in severe need of an editor and a designer to build a proper layout in his books. He had a particular zeal for overuse of commas.Yah. And exclamation points...

[FenrisUlf]

Yah. And exclamation points...

He certainly did overuse them!!!!!!!!!!!!! :P

[Tech]

I still play Robotech -palladium system- as does our group, and we like it.

[Spence]

I still play Robotech -palladium system- as does our group, and we like it.

I have a friend that still plays the Robotech game. But he can't stand the other P games.

[Spence]

Played it a couple of times, never got into it, but I got a bunch of the books.

I've been messing around with setting up the mecha using the closest piece of equipment I could find in Traveler Hero, and making a few adjustments. So far I've just messed around with the basic Cycleone armor. At the rate I'm going I should be done around 2199.

If you are using HERO and can find a copy of Robot Warriors, it can help a bit.

[Supreme Serpent]

Neat settings, neat ideas, clunky execution.

Downsides for me:

-All classes/OCCs are created equal. Given how horribly imbalanced they are (except in certain campaigns of course) they should be using different XP charts and/or be grouped into different groups - Tier A for low powered campaigns, Tier B for medium, etc.

-Level system in general, and the # of things you adjust each and every level. Some characters have pages of skills you have to update each time.

-Too much newshiney syndrome. Stuff in new books is usually better than the old versions - gear/weapons/classes.

- From a strictly RPG standpoint, I think a lot of the stuff (esp. Rifts) works better if you make a concerted effort to keep the PCs more narrowly focused and let them interact with the weirdness. A bunch of Coalition guys OR a bunch of mutants/mages OR a bunch of aliens/DBs, etc. instead of trying to mish-mash them together into one party.

[mirage]

If you are using HERO and can find a copy of Robot Warriors, it can help a bit.

I actually have RW, somewhere. The last time I looked at it was over 10 years ago when I was debating as to whether or not to use Hero, or Mekton for my Five Star Stories game. The Mekton scaling seemed to work better for that particular game. But I'll go back and have another look at it again.

[ercarlson1974]

These are some reasons why I just avoid class/level based games.

After dredging the swamps of my memory some more, I do recall a house rule from days gone by. I played a short-lived Robotech game with a gradeschool buddy of mine. At the end of each adventure we were awarded skill points, which could then be applied to skills; one skill point equaled a 1% skill increase. There was a temptation to immediately max out Veritech piloting, but by then we were mature enough roleplayers to avoid that. I can't recall how we used skill points for combat bonuses though. Unfortunately, the campaign died quickly (it was play by post and we simply lost interest). Still, perhaps that's a way to circumvent the class/level system in Palladium.

[Spence]

I actually have RW, somewhere. The last time I looked at it was over 10 years ago when I was debating as to whether or not to use Hero, or Mekton for my Five Star Stories game. The Mekton scaling seemed to work better for that particular game. But I'll go back and have another look at it again.

If you can establish a good conversion to HERO that give you a game that meets the same needs, you then have a much more flexible way to expand/add to the setting. RW is 4th and I wasn't enthused for the setting, what there was of it. But it is a good place to look at how to handle Mecha in HERO.

May be worth it, may not....

[Enforcer84]

Despite Heroes Unlimited being the most ironically misnamed game ever, I love it.
I've not played in years, and yeah, it was a "Supehero Class" system, I own every HU book they ever made.

Part of it is the hilarity that ensues because KS can't make villains that use his own rules. The other part is my amusement of being talked down to for wanting to play someone not really covered by his incredibly limited system. However, I still break out the books and work on my "Epic HU Character Generation System". Oh, and it took him over 20 years to come up with an "Extrordinary Intelligence" power despite that powerset having existed 20 years prior to his game.
But I liked devising new Mutations, Alien bonuses, Magical abilities, etc.

Loved to play TMNT(AOS) when I was in middle school, tried robotech, and have played RIFTS as recently as last year. The system appeals to my inner munchkin as well as my sense of irony.

[jtelson]

Why do so many gamers seem to hate Palladium so much?

I find its relatively low melting point for a PGM pathetic, plus it keeps eating all my Hydrogen, and does it ever ofer to get more? It does not.

[The Main Man]

I like the settings but not the rules just like many other posters on thus thread.

HU was my first RPG experience so it has a special place in my heart.

Rifts was my first GM'ing experience so it too has a special place in my heart and I have been converting (more like translating) it in various ways since I discovered HERO about 6-7 years ago.

The rules are clunky and outdated and many times things are not quite properlythought out, rules nor setting-wise.

[Lord Liaden]

Played it a couple of times, never got into it, but I got a bunch of the books.

I've been messing around with setting up the mecha using the closest piece of equipment I could find in Traveler Hero, and making a few adjustments. So far I've just messed around with the basic Cycleone armor. At the rate I'm going I should be done around 2199.



If you are using HERO and can find a copy of Robot Warriors, it can help a bit.



I actually have RW, somewhere. The last time I looked at it was over 10 years ago when I was debating as to whether or not to use Hero, or Mekton for my Five Star Stories game. The Mekton scaling seemed to work better for that particular game. But I'll go back and have another look at it again.



If you can establish a good conversion to HERO that give you a game that meets the same needs, you then have a much more flexible way to expand/add to the setting. RW is 4th and I wasn't enthused for the setting, what there was of it. But it is a good place to look at how to handle Mecha in HERO.

May be worth it, may not....

If you have HERO 5E and Robot Warriors, you can make good use of Chris Goodwin's detailed notes for combining the two into a 5E-compatible mecha game: http://www.afeather.net/~archer/rw2hero.html

Now if you'd like to see mecha and other elements from the Robotech setting rendered in 5E HERO, there's a fair amount available.

Writeups for several Robotech mecha:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14174

Numerous other mecha writeups (in downloadable HTML and HDC files), plus mecha Hit Locations, and character rank Perks:
http://www.starherofandom.com/h_robotech/index.php

Converting several specific setting elements, including Skill packages (posts #48 and 50):
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23404
[Note: the mecha writeups on this thread are reproduced under the previous link above.]

HERO stats for the Gallant H-90 multi-weapon system:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32232

Website for a Robotech HERO campaign (must be member of or join Yahoo! to view most areas):
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/champians_Robotech/

[Mr. R]

This is also a superhero game where being a guy with military training and a gun pretty much assures you of being vastly more competent than any other sort of character, such as aliens, mutants, etc. You'll notice, of course, how well that corresponds to the superhero comics, where guys like Thor, Superman and the Fantastic Four are worthless and the Punisher is the toughest person out there.

I could say more about my loathing for the Palladium System, but I just finished lunch and would rather think about more pleasant things.

I beg to differ. The problem isn't that Punisher types are so much better. It's that after a while people begin to realize that and make their heros so they get military or police training. Then you get the alien scout from another world with a natural AR, loads of SDC, an anti gravity disc, Super Speed and Vibratory Powers.

Or as one long time player put it "We just reroll if we get Special training Martial Arts or Hardware. There is no point when you can make similar builds with the right skill picks, get all the gear and the super powers."

[Spence]

I didn't go with Hero because of the way killing attacks worked.....

Sometimes a system doesn't give the 'feel' you want so you have to go with another. The important thing is if everyone had fun :thumbup:

[The Main Man]

That's another thing that I dislike about the Palladium system: Experience.

On the one hand I applaud them for rewarding roleplaying but your character at Lvl. 1 is going to generally remain the same for all 15 levels, except that HP, Skills, and special powers may be higher.

That's assuming that you ever get there since progression is so slow and rather arbitrary per class.

[Spence]

Palladium - where even the popcorn is more dangerous than a T-800.....



:sneaky:

[Toadmaster]

I've always been amazed that Palladium could come up with so many neat ideas, and get ahold of so many licenses but completely fail in their implementation. I tried several of thier games over the years but never found one that worked for me.

It really disturbed me to see what they did to Recon, buy out a game about the Vietnam war, then completely sanitize the background into some sort of Hollywood version of the war. I keep hoping that with Paladiums troubles that game will escape their clutches, and get to someone who will treat it right.

[ercarlson1974]

Palladium - where even the popcorn is more dangerous than a T-800.....



:sneaky:
:lol::lol::lol:

[incrdbil]

I've always been amazed that Palladium could come up with so many neat ideas, and get ahold of so many licenses but completely fail in their implementation. I tried several of thier games over the years but never found one that worked for me.

It really disturbed me to see what they did to Recon, buy out a game about the Vietnam war, then completely sanitize the background into some sort of Hollywood version of the war. I keep hoping that with Paladiums troubles that game will escape their clutches, and get to someone who will treat it right.

Well, hopefully, someday Kevin will go nuts, sell out, or otherwise sell off the rights, then someone can go in, sift through the mounds of material, keep the decent books and background, rip out that pathetic joke of a system and replace it with anything else. Part of me would laugh if Palladium games were 'upgraded' to the d20 system. :eg:

[Greywind]

With the level system that Palladium is, it is almost already there...

[The Main Man]

D20 would sadly be an upgrade...

[bubba smith]

whats sad about it?

[Lord Liaden]

This place isn't exactly a stronghold of D20 love.

[Thia Halmades]

We're a bastion for healthy role playing, this is true, but the inherent class-based design and inability to draft new, functional things against any kind of tool kit (metrics? Yes. Tool kit? No.) leads to frustration among HERO gamers. Palladium is built on a grossly modified d20 model from the AD&D days, and never improved on it. Hence, d20 would (sadly) be an improvement.

[Lord Mhoram]

Well, hopefully, someday Kevin will go nuts, sell out, or otherwise sell off the rights,

Kevin has said that if Palladium went down, he would never sell rights. He would keep them no matter what.

[mayapuppies]

He's a tenacious little S.O.B. I'll give him that. Unfortunately his manner of stubbornness is very similar to a spoiled 2 year old.

[incrdbil]

Kevin has said that if Palladium went down, he would never sell rights. He would keep them no matter what.

Ah yes, the 'better to let something die off and not be available to others if I can't control it all' school of thought. How do peop[el trot out the 'he's looking out for the players' argument with that attitude on the books?
What a sad little man.

[The Main Man]

What I wish that he could realize is that since he based his rules off of D&D no one would think less of him if he at least went to D20.


If anything he'll probably get some praise (hardcore fans notwithstanding).


I seriously don't see a downside for him to convert to D20 (assuming that it's not a half-ass job) since it is still a supported system in the wake of D&D 4th edition.

[Supreme Serpent]

Kevin has said that if Palladium went down, he would never sell rights. He would keep them no matter what.

If he got hungry, I suspect he would change his mind. If not, it would be a self-correcting issue.

[Vulcan]

Actually it would be brilliant for him to do so.

Then he could sell what is essentially the same material, twice.

And this time it might even be useable.:straight:

[The Main Man]

Buh-Zing! ;)

[bubba smith]

We're a bastion for healthy role playing, this is true, but the inherent class-based design and inability to draft new, functional things against any kind of tool kit (metrics? Yes. Tool kit? No.) leads to frustration among HERO gamers. Palladium is built on a grossly modified d20 model from the AD&D days, and never improved on it. Hence, d20 would (sadly) be an improvement.
thanks thia

[The Main Man]

Keep in mind that Palladium was my first RPG exposure but I have moved quite beyond that since I was 14.

[Lord Mhoram]

If he got hungry, I suspect he would change his mind. If not, it would be a self-correcting issue.

From things I've read about how he does cut and paste, and rewrites books that freelancers have written (some horror stories over at RPGnet about that), I get the impressions that he is a real control freak. When he said he wouldn't ever let Rifts, Palladium Fantasy or Heroes Unlimited go to anyone else fits perfectly with everything else I know about that man. Look at how hard he goes after any website with any conversion from Palladium system.

[Sketchpad]

Look at how hard he goes after any website with any conversion from Palladium system.

I believe that's more due from the Nightspawn/Nightbane incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightbane), isn't it? I think it's kind of funny and sad that he throws a stink when fans try and build their favorite characters in Palladium (or when people use other systems to emulate Palladium settings). Be honest, I'm surprised that Good Ole Kev (tm) hasn't dropped the hammer down on the various Rifts Hero attempts like he did to d20 back when 3e first came out.

[Lord Mhoram]

I believe that's more due from the Nightspawn/Nightbane incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightbane), isn't it? I think it's kind of funny and sad that he throws a stink when fans try and build their favorite characters in Palladium (or when people use other systems to emulate Palladium settings). Be honest, I'm surprised that Good Ole Kev (tm) hasn't dropped the hammer down on the various Rifts Hero attempts like he did to d20 back when 3e first came out.

That could be some of the genesis for it.

[sinanju]

From things I've read about how he does cut and paste, and rewrites books that freelancers have written (some horror stories over at RPGnet about that), I get the impressions that he is a real control freak. When he said he wouldn't ever let Rifts, Palladium Fantasy or Heroes Unlimited go to anyone else fits perfectly with everything else I know about that man. Look at how hard he goes after any website with any conversion from Palladium system.

Yeah, his tantrum when The Primal Order book included conversion notes for the Palladium system many years ago is when I discovered what an unmitigated ***hole he is. Not that I've played the Palladium system, or ever will. But that incident assured that I'll never, ever spend a penny for anything he's ever published--and I'll joyfully blacken his name every chance I get.

[Dholcrist]

Keep in mind that Palladium was my first RPG exposure but I have moved quite beyond that since I was 14.

It was mine, too. Bought the Robotech main rulebook (purely because I loved Robotech more than anything) when I was 13, thinking it was a tabletop war game. Previous to Robotech, I'd never heard of a pen and paper RPG, and had only played Warhammer 40k with my friends. So I thought Robotech was the same thing.

How wrong I was. Because we'd never played anything, my group fell in love with it. But as soon as we started playing Cyberpunk, D6 Star Wars, and D&D we realized how awful the system was.

I really wish Robotech would get a D20 line...

Speaking of which, though, has anyone seen or played the recent Robotech release? I really want to pick it up for old time's sake, but naturally I'm rather hesitant.

[The Main Man]

I had the same thing going here.

I loved the games that I played with Palladium rules until I played other games and developed an eye for design flaws.

[Lord Mhoram]

Yeah, his tantrum when The Primal Order book included conversion notes for the Palladium system many years ago is when I discovered what an unmitigated ***hole he is. Not that I've played the Palladium system, or ever will. But that incident assured that I'll never, ever spend a penny for anything he's ever published--and I'll joyfully blacken his name every chance I get.

The Bill Coffin written stuff for Heroes unlimited (the superprison, and the city near it) are very well done, and make for a great Iron Age kind of setting. I use those in my champs games.

[The Main Man]

I liked the Gramercy Island book myself but I have not checked out Century Station.

While Gramercy Island is decent I can't help but feel like many of the characters are rather uninspired and look like they were randomly generated as per the system except for where it would be convenient for concept.

IOW, it and most Palladium NPC's expose the system's flaws.

[csyphrett]

The story is Bill Coffin designed the Gramercy Island npcs but they didn't hold up to an NPC inspection. Essentially he houseruled his npcs and then they were published as resources.

Personally I like Palladium better than Hero as a system. I just don't always agree with the posters at the Palladium board because I don't always get what their problems are.

I can't handle invulnerabilty, Can paired weapons be used to block and hit at the same time, What do you mean Page 74 is optional for GMs who don't know what they are doing?


CES

[incrdbil]

It was mine, too. Bought the Robotech main rulebook (purely because I loved Robotech more than anything) when I was 13, thinking it was a tabletop war game. Previous to Robotech, I'd never heard of a pen and paper RPG, and had only played Warhammer 40k with my friends. So I thought Robotech was the same thing.



IIRC, one of the features..or lack thereof, was a useful way to do Mecha combat. The game had descriptions of top speeds, theoretical weapons ranges..but really no system for 'Mecha combat.


I think the first printing had armor descriptions for Mecha by hit location--but no hit location charts, until another book came out. I could be wrong about that, but I do recall that..among the million other problems.

We actually quit playing and closed the rulebook during our first game of the Palladium superhero rules. It was just that bad. I think we were doing a basic combat, someone was trying to break down a door..and we just finally had enough of the built in stupidity.

[Lord Liaden]

Be honest, I'm surprised that Good Ole Kev (tm) hasn't dropped the hammer down on the various Rifts Hero attempts like he did to d20 back when 3e first came out.

I suspect it's because the HERO stuff is low-profile compared to the D20 juggernaut, and has just escaped his notice to date.

Whenever I refer to those fan HERO conversions on a more heavily trafficked forum, like RPGnet, I always avoid posting any links for fear that Siembieda or his cronies would notice and bring down their wrath, potentially depriving us of a fine resource. I simply post to imply that someone interested in converting RIFTS to HERO who contacts me privately might find something interesting. :sneaky:

[csyphrett]

We actually quit playing and closed the rulebook during our first game of the Palladium superhero rules. It was just that bad. I think we were doing a basic combat, someone was trying to break down a door..and we just finally had enough of the built in stupidity.

That's what I was talking about right there. How do you knock down a door?
You roll a 20, apply damage unless the door dodged, and get a description of what happened. A lot of people have a problem with that. I just don't know why.
CES

[csyphrett]

I suspect it's because the HERO stuff is low-profile compared to the D20 juggernaut, and has just escaped his notice to date.

Whenever I refer to those fan HERO conversions on a more heavily trafficked forum, like RPGnet, I always avoid posting any links for fear that Siembieda or his cronies would notice and bring down their wrath, potentially depriving us of a fine resource. I simply post to imply that someone interested in converting RIFTS to HERO who contacts me privately might find something interesting. :sneaky:

They have a fair use thing that can be put on Palladium stuff but I don't know if it will cover conversions to other systems.
CES

[bubba smith]

That's what I was talking about right there. How do you knock down a door?
You roll a 20, apply damage unless the door dodged, and get a description of what happened. A lot of people have a problem with that. I just don't know why.
CES
the only way a door"dodges" is via the old cartoon gag of someone on the other side opening it when you're about to knock it down

[Vondy]

That's what I was talking about right there. How do you knock down a door?
You roll a 20, apply damage unless the door dodged, and get a description of what happened. A lot of people have a problem with that. I just don't know why.
CES

If a door aborts to dodge during a game I'm going to assume my drink was spiked.

[csyphrett]

Depending on your Gm, dodging doors are the least of your problems. I expect that part is the same no matter what system you are using.
CES

[Vulcan]

IIRC, one of the features..or lack thereof, was a useful way to do Mecha combat. The game had descriptions of top speeds, theoretical weapons ranges..but really no system for 'Mecha combat.


I think the first printing had armor descriptions for Mecha by hit location--but no hit location charts, until another book came out. I could be wrong about that, but I do recall that..among the million other problems.

The assumption was that unless you were making a called shot (and in the system there really was little reason to do so) you automatically hit the 'Main Body' location. Simplified things a bit, but at the cost of loosing some of the flavor of the source material.

[The Main Man]

Robotech was the one Palladium setting where Mega-Damage made sense (for what it was).

[Lucius]

IIRC, one of the features..or lack thereof, was a useful way to do Mecha combat. The game had descriptions of top speeds, theoretical weapons ranges..but really no system for 'Mecha combat.


I think the first printing had armor descriptions for Mecha by hit location--but no hit location charts, until another book came out. I could be wrong about that, but I do recall that..among the million other problems.

We actually quit playing and closed the rulebook during our first game of the Palladium superhero rules. It was just that bad. I think we were doing a basic combat, someone was trying to break down a door..and we just finally had enough of the built in stupidity.

I remember that now.

Robotech. The game that taught me that bad rules can lead to fighting between players, not between their characters.

Lucius Alexander

Palladium; it's enough to gag a palindromedary

[Shaft]

A combat, as played out with Palladium rules:

Lefty, the thief, is thieving an apartment when Granny Johnson walks in on him. Lefty decides to bolt, grabs a chair (1 attack) so he can use it with his next attack.

Granny Johnson runs over to her gun cabinet and pulls out the 9mm she keeps for home defense. She waits for Lefty to act.

Lefty, seeing that he is outclassed in firepower, furiously pounds the chair against the window (2nd action), doing 1d6 damage (his 14 STR gives him no damage bonus). The windows has 12 SDC. Lefty's chair slam does *roll* 3 points of damage, bouncing off the glass. (The chair has taken an equal amount of damage).

Granny adopts a firing stance and squeezes the trigger, just like the nice man at the NRA showed her, doing 2d6 to Lefty, who can't dodge since he has no actions left. Left loses 8 pts from his 35 SDC.

This exchange has taken 15 seconds.

Next round, worried for his life and bleeding from a wound which has no effect, Lefty desperately uses the chair against the window, doing 4 pts. Lefty needs to do another 5 pts before the window breaks.

Granny Johnson shoots him again, for 6 points. Lefty only has 21 SDC before he starts taking hit point damage.

Lefty uses his next action to smash the window again. He rolls average, doing 4 points. The window still has a point of SDC and is intact.

Granny shoots Lefty, missing him.

This has taken another 15 seconds.

Lefty wins iniative again despite having 2 bullets in him. He does 6 points to the window, barely breaking it.

Granny shoots him for a painful 9 points reducing him to 12 SDC.

Lefty jumps out of the 2nd story window and takes 2d6 as he lands. The damage is 7 points. 1 of those points come out of Lefty's 13 Hit Points. Lefty lost a Hit point! His Physical Prowess drops by 3 points from 12 to 9 and he loses 3 points from his movement speed.

Granny moves to the window and shoots again, hitting him! Lefty takes 4 points, and suffers another -2 to SPd and -1 to dodge.

45 seconds have passed.

Lefty makes his way out of the alley, getting half way to the end.

Granny jumps out after him, taking 6 points as she falls. She only has 4 SDC left, but isn't in Hit points yet!

Lefty hears her land and limps to get out of the alley. Lucky for him he is able to break LOS.

Granny takes off after him and moves halfway down the alley. With his Speed reduction she moves faster than he does.

One minute (60 seconds) have transpired.

Lefty is in the main street, looking for cover. He moves behind a mailbox, holding an action to dodge.

Granny emerges into the street, and moves to get Line of Sight on Lefty. She shoots, but he dodges.

1 minute, 15 seconds.

6 shots have been fired at this points, so pedestrians have been clearing out of the street, but a cop sees Granny opening up on with a weapon. He calls out to her, ordering her to drop her weapon, but she is not wearing her hearing aid and fails her perception roll, opting instead to fire twice at Lefty, who dodges once and takes 5 points from the second round.

The cop draws and fires on her, doing 7 points. Granny is now in Hit Points, and has a -1 to her Physical Endurance for the next 3d4 days.

1 minute, 30 seconds have passed.

Granny doesn't quite realise that it's a cop, so she opens up on him, thinking she is being flanked. The cop dodges, but he has an extra action on her from his boxing skill. He shoots her, and she is unable to dodge. She takes 3 points, and is down to her last hit point. This last hit point injury also puts her at -4 to dodge.

Lefty uses his two actions to run away.

1 minute 45 seconds have passed.

The cop holds his action waiting to see what Granny will do. Granny drops her gun and surrenders. Combat ends at 2 minutes. Lefty sneaks away, and lives since there don't seem to be bleeding rules, but he has to roll on the insanity charts because of the trauma he endured. A random roll makes Lefty obsessed with Timeliness.

Stupid game.

[Pyre-Archer]

Speaking of which, though, has anyone seen or played the recent Robotech release? I really want to pick it up for old time's sake, but naturally I'm rather hesitant.

Do you mean the Robotech RPG pocketbook? It's...

Well, it's...

Hmm...

I bought it at the local gaming store (also out of nostalgia). It's missing a few things (SDF-1 defenses struck me the most(Pinpoint barrier? Macross/Daedalus Attack)?, stats for some of the NPCs*, that sort of thing) They also did a lot of 'See the Shadow Chronicles RPG' references for character creation ie use Valkyrie pilot where it originally said Veritech pilot, etc. Which I found a bit annoying.

Pyre-Archer.

*What? I thought Vannessa was cute.;)

[csyphrett]

A combat, as played out with Palladium rules:

Lefty, the thief, is thieving an apartment when Granny Johnson walks in on him. Lefty decides to bolt, grabs a chair (1 attack) so he can use it with his next attack.

Granny Johnson runs over to her gun cabinet and pulls out the 9mm she keeps for home defense. She waits for Lefty to act.

Lefty, seeing that he is outclassed in firepower, furiously pounds the chair against the window (2nd action), doing 1d6 damage (his 14 STR gives him no damage bonus). The windows has 12 SDC. Lefty's chair slam does *roll* 3 points of damage, bouncing off the glass. (The chair has taken an equal amount of damage).

Granny adopts a firing stance and squeezes the trigger, just like the nice man at the NRA showed her, doing 2d6 to Lefty, who can't dodge since he has no actions left. Left loses 8 pts from his 35 SDC.

This exchange has taken 15 seconds.

Next round, worried for his life and bleeding from a wound which has no effect, Lefty desperately uses the chair against the window, doing 4 pts. Lefty needs to do another 5 pts before the window breaks.

Granny Johnson shoots him again, for 6 points. Lefty only has 21 SDC before he starts taking hit point damage.

Lefty uses his next action to smash the window again. He rolls average, doing 4 points. The window still has a point of SDC and is intact.

Granny shoots Lefty, missing him.

This has taken another 15 seconds.

Lefty wins iniative again despite having 2 bullets in him. He does 6 points to the window, barely breaking it.

Granny shoots him for a painful 9 points reducing him to 12 SDC.

Lefty jumps out of the 2nd story window and takes 2d6 as he lands. The damage is 7 points. 1 of those points come out of Lefty's 13 Hit Points. Lefty lost a Hit point! His Physical Prowess drops by 3 points from 12 to 9 and he loses 3 points from his movement speed.

Granny moves to the window and shoots again, hitting him! Lefty takes 4 points, and suffers another -2 to SPd and -1 to dodge.

45 seconds have passed.

Lefty makes his way out of the alley, getting half way to the end.

Granny jumps out after him, taking 6 points as she falls. She only has 4 SDC left, but isn't in Hit points yet!

Lefty hears her land and limps to get out of the alley. Lucky for him he is able to break LOS.

Granny takes off after him and moves halfway down the alley. With his Speed reduction she moves faster than he does.

One minute (60 seconds) have transpired.

Lefty is in the main street, looking for cover. He moves behind a mailbox, holding an action to dodge.

Granny emerges into the street, and moves to get Line of Sight on Lefty. She shoots, but he dodges.

1 minute, 15 seconds.

6 shots have been fired at this points, so pedestrians have been clearing out of the street, but a cop sees Granny opening up on with a weapon. He calls out to her, ordering her to drop her weapon, but she is not wearing her hearing aid and fails her perception roll, opting instead to fire twice at Lefty, who dodges once and takes 5 points from the second round.

The cop draws and fires on her, doing 7 points. Granny is now in Hit Points, and has a -1 to her Physical Endurance for the next 3d4 days.

1 minute, 30 seconds have passed.

Granny doesn't quite realise that it's a cop, so she opens up on him, thinking she is being flanked. The cop dodges, but he has an extra action on her from his boxing skill. He shoots her, and she is unable to dodge. She takes 3 points, and is down to her last hit point. This last hit point injury also puts her at -4 to dodge.

Lefty uses his two actions to run away.

1 minute 45 seconds have passed.

The cop holds his action waiting to see what Granny will do. Granny drops her gun and surrenders. Combat ends at 2 minutes. Lefty sneaks away, and lives since there don't seem to be bleeding rules, but he has to roll on the insanity charts because of the trauma he endured. A random roll makes Lefty obsessed with Timeliness.

Stupid game.

Just reading this is a hoot but I think some of it is wrong.
CES

[Hugh Neilson]

A combat, as played out with Palladium rules:

Of course, Hero is vastly superior.


Lefty, the thief, is thieving an apartment when Granny Johnson walks in on him. Lefty decides to bolt, grabs a chair (1 attack) so he can use it with his next attack.

Granny Johnson runs over to her gun cabinet and pulls out the 9mm she keeps for home defense. She waits for Lefty to act.

1 phase


Lefty, seeing that he is outclassed in firepower, furiously pounds the chair against the window (2nd action), doing 1d6 damage (his 14 STR gives him no damage bonus). The windows has 12 SDC. Lefty's chair slam does *roll* 3 points of damage, bouncing off the glass. (The chair has taken an equal amount of damage).

In Hero, Lefty does 2d6 damage (I'm assuming average STR), the same as if he punched the window since objects can only do STR damage, capped at their combined DEF and BOD. He rolls 1 BOD, and the glass has 1 DEF, so no damage.


Granny adopts a firing stance and squeezes the trigger, just like the nice man at the NRA showed her, doing 2d6 to Lefty, who can't dodge since he has no actions left. Left loses 8 pts from his 35 SDC.

Granny and Lefty both have SPD 2, so Lefty, having already moved this phase, can't act. He gets shot, and Granny rolls 3 BOD and 9 STUN. Lefty is injured, but not out.


This exchange has taken 15 seconds.

We're at a full turn, so 12 seconds. Lenny gets 4 STUN back from recovery.


Next round, worried for his life and bleeding from a wound which has no effect, Lefty desperately uses the chair against the window, doing 4 pts. Lefty needs to do another 5 pts before the window breaks.

Almost the same, but this time Lenny doesn't roll a 1 so he breaks the window (unscratched from the prior chair hit, I might add).


Granny Johnson shoots him again, for 6 points. Lefty only has 21 SDC before he starts taking hit point damage.

Lefty should have saved that phase to dodge - oops. Hit again, this time for 4 BOD and 8 STUN. One BOD and 5 STUN left of your Normal human 8 and 16, Lenny!

Another phase.


Lefty wins iniative again despite having 2 bullets in him. Lefty jumps out of the 2nd story window

He falls 3 or 4 meters, 2", and takes 2d6 as he lands. The damage is 7 points, so Lenny takes 5 STUN and 0 BOD - he's knocked out.

Granny figures he's dead, but decides to make sure.


Granny jumps out after him, taking 6 points as she falls. She only has 4 SDC left, but isn't in Hit points yet!

She also takes 26d, average roll of 7 and 2 does 5 STUN and 0 BOD, so she's uninjured.

Two turns - 24 seconds. PS 12 gets Lenny back to 4 STUN and Granny recovers all but one of her lost Stun.


Lefty hears her land and limps to get out of the alley. Lucky for him he is able to break LOS.

Lenny flees - his movement isn't reduced despite 2 bullets in him and just recovering from being KO's, but he only gets a half move as he has to stand up. But he manages to break LoS.


Granny takes off after him and moves halfway down the alley. With his Speed reduction she moves faster than he does.

Granny has a full move, so she moves the same as Lenny in only a half move. She looks around to spot Lenny, but he's wearing dark clothes, so she uses a half phase to zone in on him.

Another phase - we're up to 30 seconds.


One minute (60 seconds) have transpired.

Lefty is in the main street, looking for cover. He moves behind a mailbox, holding an action to dodge.

Ditto. Lenny holds a half phase.

Granny moves around to get a better line on Lenny, eliminating his cover, then shoots. Lefty dodges and she misses.


1 minute, 15 seconds.

36 seconds


many shots have been fired at this points, so pedestrians have been clearing out of the street, but a cop sees Granny opening up on with a weapon. He calls out to her, ordering her to drop her weapon, but she is not wearing her hearing aid and fails her perception roll, opting instead to fire twice at Lefty, who dodges once and takes 5 points from the second round.

Lefty moves first, and sprints for cover, ducking down an alley and breaking line of sight. Granny chases after him, but only makes a half move so she can shoot if he pops his head back out.


The cop draws and fires on her, doing 7 points. Granny is now in Hit Points, and has a -1 to her Physical Endurance for the next 3d4 days.

The cop hits for 4 BOD and 12 STUN, so Granny is Stunned.

42 seconds have passed.


Granny doesn't quite realise that it's a cop, so she opens up on him, thinking she is being flanked. The cop dodges, but he has an extra action on her from his boxing skill. He shoots her, and she is unable to dodge. She takes 3 points, and is down to her last hit point. This last hit point injury also puts her at -4 to dodge.

Granny must recover from being Stunned.


Lefty uses his two actions to run away.

Lenny uses his phase to run away.


1 minute 45 seconds have passed.

48 seconds in Hero.


The cop holds his action waiting to see what Granny will do. Granny drops her gun and surrenders. Combat ends at 2 minutes. Lefty sneaks away, and lives since there don't seem to be bleeding rules, but he has to roll on the insanity charts because of the trauma he endured. A random roll makes Lefty obsessed with Timeliness.

Combat ends at just under a minute. Lefty lives since the bleeding rules are optional. At least he avoids the insanity check.

Yup, Hero's much better!

[Shaft]

Of course, Hero is vastly superior.


Well, my thinking is that in HERO, Lefty is far more likely to break the glass the first time since he does 2-1/2d Normal damage, plus another 2d6 for the chair (4-1/2d6 total). A Window is Def 2, Body 1. To not break the window, Lefty would have to roll no sixes and three ones-possible, but less likely than Palladium's more straightforward damage curve.

Granny's 9mm would do 1d6+1 Killing Damage and have hit location multipliers on top of that- Lefty only has 10-14 Body, so a hit of 5-7 points can actually take him down (it'll happen about 1/3rd of the time with just one bullet). Plus, she could snap fire to put 2 rds into him with every action. However, by the time she gets her gun out, Lefty is probably already out the window and running for the alley if he is intact enough to do so. She probably wouldn't be inclined to follow since a fall from the second floor would probably stun her, and possibly knock her her out (it would be about 5d6 Normal damage, and I assume that she would have about 15-16 stun and only 1 or 2 PD). I would guess that givne her bloodthirsty nature, she'd just keep shooting at Lefty until she lost line of sight, or he dropped from his wounds.

In HERO, the scenario can play out with a bit more common sense.

[Vulcan]

Much ado about nothing cut out for brevity...


Of course, Hero is vastly superior.

<SNIP>

Yup, Hero's much better!

Of course, Paladium assumes Lefty is at DCV 3 unless he actually uses his phase to dodge... (Visualize that concept for a moment. A charcter can have a 3(min roll) 24 (max roll), 30, even 50 DEX... but all are effectively DCV 3 unless you use an action to dodge. http://www.herogames.com/forums/images/icons/sick.gif Leaves a nasty taste in the mouth, that does.)

And I always thought sheet glass had 1 BODY, not 1 DEF (we assume glass is 0 DEF...). But then that's just me.

[teh bunneh]

According to 5r page 448, glass has 1 Def 1 Body; reinforced glass has 2 Def 1 Body. On an average roll with a 10 STR, Lefty should be able to break an ordinary window in 1 action (or make a Move Thru and cinematically dive through the glass). :bmk:

But I'm with Vulcan, we've always played windows as having 0 Def 1 Body. I've put my own body parts through too many to think otherwise. ;)

[ghost-angel]

He's a tenacious little S.O.B. I'll give him that. Unfortunately his manner of stubbornness is very similar to a spoiled 2 year old.

I had no idea you held that much contempt for 2 year olds.

[matrix3]

I must admit I'm partial to the Palladium system. The first pen&paper I played was TMNT, and it was a blast. I found Palladium vastly superior to D&D at the time (though I must admit that might have just been the quality of local Palladium players vs. D&D players), and my friends and I spent a lot of time having a blast in Rifts. Of course, we usually made new characters about every other session, but that was part of the fun for us, getting to try out new characters.

And I _really_ enjoyed Nightbane. I thought about spinning up something similar in Hero...

[Adventus]

Yeah, his tantrum when The Primal Order book included conversion notes for the Palladium system many years ago is when I discovered what an unmitigated ***hole he is. Not that I've played the Palladium system, or ever will. But that incident assured that I'll never, ever spend a penny for anything he's ever published--and I'll joyfully blacken his name every chance I get.

And because he did throw a tantrum:

Wizards of the Coast create a card game callled Magic The Gathering to pay their lawyer bills.
They raise enough money from this to buy TSR.
They come out with the 3rd Edition of AD&D revitalizing the industry.
This causes many NEW gaming companies to form.
One of which gives Hero Games a decent competitor.
Mutants and Masterminds.

All Because Kevin Siembieda is a total Jerk about his Intellectual Property.

Also, you have to admit, the binding on his books is very good. I have not had any of my Palladium books have pages fall out.

[Greywind]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaft http://www.herogames.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1758616#post1758616)
Granny jumps out after him, taking 6 points as she falls. She only has 4 SDC left, but isn't in Hit points yet!

She also takes 26d, average roll of 7 and 2 does 5 STUN and 0 BOD, so she's uninjured.

Two turns - 24 seconds. PS 12 gets Lenny back to 4 STUN and Granny recovers all but one of her lost Stun.
That's a pretty sucky roll for 26 dice...

[Ragdoll]

A combat, as played out with Palladium rules:

Neato! Let's try GURPS now! :D


Lefty, the thief, is thieving an apartment when Granny Johnson walks in on him. Lefty decides to bolt, grabs a chair (1 attack) so he can use it with his next attack.

Granny Johnson runs over to her gun cabinet and pulls out the 9mm she keeps for home defense. She waits for Lefty to act.Turn 1. Granny Waits.


Lefty, seeing that he is outclassed in firepower, furiously pounds the chair against the window (2nd action), doing 1d6 damage (his 14 STR gives him no damage bonus). The windows has 12 SDC. Lefty's chair slam does *roll* 3 points of damage, bouncing off the glass. (The chair has taken an equal amount of damage).Turn 2

In GURPS Lefty does 1d+1 swing, his chair acting as a light club. Before he resolves his roll against the window, Granny using her wait maneuver opens fire. She fires 3 bullets at Lefty as he whirls on the window behind him. She hits him only once, though, in the torso or back for 8 HP damage. Lefty has a Major Wound. His move and dodge are cut by 1/2 and is -4 to his DX and IQ rolls due to shock until the end of the next turn. He must also make a HT roll due to the major wound or be stunned, fail by 5 or more and Lefty will lose conciousness. He just makes his HT roll.

Lefty rolls a 6 for a total of 7 damage with his chair. A plate glass window is DR 1 HP 3, so he shatters it on the first try.


Granny adopts a firing stance and squeezes the trigger, just like the nice man at the NRA showed her, doing 2d6 to Lefty, who can't dodge since he has no actions left. Left loses 8 pts from his 35 SDC.Turn 3

Granny has a speed of 4.75 Lefty has a speed of 5.00. Lefty leaps out the 2nd window and falls to the street below taking 10 HP damage and breaking his left leg. Lefty is now at negative HP and must roll under HT to remain concious. He fails and loses conciousness. Granny sees Lefty fall and hit the pavement limp, and goes downstairs to check on him. Because she's not a loon, she doesn't jump from a 2 story window onto the pavement below. :D

This exchange has taken 3 seconds, and the combat ends. Granny may never meet the cop or be shot. :D

This is fun! Anyone want to convert this combat to another system to see how it plays out? :D

[lemming]

Ok. Rolemaster:

Lefty picks up the chair swinging it at the window, but stumbles over the imaginary dead turtle, crashing thru the window to the street below.

[Ragdoll]

Ok. Rolemaster:

Lefty picks up the chair swinging it at the window, but stumbles over the imaginary dead turtle, crashing thru the window to the street below.

LOL!! Rolemaster and its fumble tables! XD

[Narratio]

A lot of this goes back to the Hero system having guns do normal damage, likewise leaping from buildings. The house rules we used to play with make guns RKA's, which brings about a slightly different effect. Jump from a multistory building and whether it's a normal or a KA damage depends upon what you land on and the hieght you jumped from.

[steamteck]

Um, guns do killing damage in HERO. what did you really mean?

[Toadmaster]

Also, you have to admit, the binding on his books is very good. I have not had any of my Palladium books have pages fall out.


This is true, none of my Paladium books have had their bindings fail... of course most have only been opened once. :p



Neato! Let's try GURPS now! :D

Turn 1. Granny Waits.

Turn 2

In GURPS Lefty does 1d+1 swing, his chair acting as a light club. Before he resolves his roll against the window, Granny using her wait maneuver opens fire. She fires 3 bullets at Lefty as he whirls on the window behind him. She hits him only once, though, in the torso or back for 8 HP damage. Lefty has a Major Wound. His move and dodge are cut by 1/2 and is -4 to his DX and IQ rolls due to shock until the end of the next turn. He must also make a HT roll due to the major wound or be stunned, fail by 5 or more and Lefty will lose conciousness. He just makes his HT roll.

Lefty rolls a 6 for a total of 7 damage with his chair. A plate glass window is DR 1 HP 3, so he shatters it on the first try.

Turn 3

Granny has a speed of 4.75 Lefty has a speed of 5.00. Lefty leaps out the 2nd window and falls to the street below taking 10 HP damage and breaking his left leg. Lefty is now at negative HP and must roll under HT to remain concious. He fails and loses conciousness. Granny sees Lefty fall and hit the pavement limp, and goes downstairs to check on him. Because she's not a loon, she doesn't jump from a 2 story window onto the pavement below. :D

This exchange has taken 3 seconds, and the combat ends. Granny may never meet the cop or be shot. :D

This is fun! Anyone want to convert this combat to another system to see how it plays out? :D

Oooh, oooh Phoenix Command

Granny picks up her Benelli M3 semi auto 12 gauge because Granny doesn't believe in pop guns.

Seeing he is out gunned Lefty picks up a chair to break the window.

Granny assumes a firing stance taking a quick shot, she scores a hit with 7 pellets (of 12), the first pellet enters Leftys upper back, piercing his lung and severs an artery, the second pellet... never mind.

Time elapsed .5 seconds. :eg:

[ercarlson1974]

I had no idea you held that much contempt for 2 year olds.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Supreme Serpent]

Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP)! :D

Lefty, the thief, is thieving an apartment when Granny Johnson walks in on him. Lefty decides to bolt and grabs a chair so he can use it with his next action.

Granny Johnson runs over to her gun cabinet and pulls out the 9mm she keeps for home defense.

Lefty, seeing that he is outclassed in firepower, furiously pounds the chair against the window. He has Typical strength and makes the Green FEAT to bash through the Feeble material strength of the glass.

Granny adopts a firing stance and squeezes the trigger, just like the nice man at the NRA showed her. She has Poor Agility and no actual Skill with guns, so misses.

Swinging nearby, Spider-Man sees the window breaking and hears the shot from Granny's gun. He swings in through the window, catching Leftie with a foot, knocking him down and alerted to the location of Granny's gun by his Spider-Sense, webs it up. He checks that everyone is alright, and hearing the kids waking up in the next room berates Granny for keeping her gun loaded even though her grandkids are in the apartment. He leaves Lefty hanging in a web-cocoon from a neaby streetlight for the cops and swings off to have sex with either Mary Jane or the Black Cat, depending. He picks up a bunch of Karma for catching the criminal, delivering a civic service message and for making his date.

The exchange has taken a few panels, and nobody really cares about Lefty or Granny anyways - this is a game about superheroes.

[incrdbil]

Given the lack of real difference in speed, Granny should have checked if her current Genre settings allowed her to Haymaker the pistol shot :)

[Shoutybloke]

you think it palladium is bad? here's how it would go down in white wolfs minds eye theater:

Granny spots lefty rifleing her apartment and goes for her 9mm/ lefty grabs the chair.

granny opens fire. she has 2 dex, no fiearms(-2), and a light pistol (+2) for a total of 2 she draws a card and gets 6. missing. lefty runs up to her and hits her with the chair (str3 weaponry 2, chair +1,- grannys defense of 2, total 3.he pulls a 6, also missing. They both need a total of 10 to do any damage whatsoever, lefty has 7 health levels and granny has 6. each round lasts 3 seconds in game time. worse, at melee range, lefty gets his defese against granny, reducing her to a chance pull, of ten only. lefty is therefore doing 0.3 heath levels per round to grannys 0.1. lefty finally batters her unconsious after 20 round, or about a minute, 45 seconds after she ran out of ammo.

[Ternaugh]

Toon:
Lefty sees Granny reach into the gun cabinet and pull out her Acme(tm) Hurtsalot pistol (with the 6' barrel), and his eyes bug out. His legs immediately start spinning, and he attempts to run through the wall.

Unfortunately, Lefty makes his Smarts roll, and bounces off the wall, to end up eye to eye with the end of Granny's gun barrel. She pulls the trigger, and a bullet fires out of the end, cracks open, and slams Lefty with a large mallet. A hit! A circle of stars appears around Lefty's head, as he takes a Time Out for the next 3 minutes.

JoeG

[Susano]

I'm trying to imagine this for Feng Shui. I think it ends with the house collapsing after the two characters blow it apart.

[lemming]

Paranioa:

Gran-r-maa 1 finds Left-r-ded 5 rifling thru her Tina-O-MLY CDs and pulls out her Cone Rifle that she picked up from R&D.

Left-R-Ded 5 is trapped since there's no such things as windows here.

Gran-R-Maa 1 pulls the trigger.

Gran-R-Maa 2 is billed for the destruction of sector H due to clone #1 using a nuclear round.

[Vondy]

I must admit I'm partial to the Palladium system. The first pen&paper I played was TMNT, and it was a blast. I found Palladium vastly superior to D&D at the time (though I must admit that might have just been the quality of local Palladium players vs. D&D players), and my friends and I spent a lot of time having a blast in Rifts. Of course, we usually made new characters about every other session, but that was part of the fun for us, getting to try out new characters.

And I _really_ enjoyed Nightbane. I thought about spinning up something similar in Hero...

Not all Palladium games were created equal. TMNT was heads above the rest. And players do make the difference.

[The Main Man]

Not all Palladium games were created equal. TMNT was heads above the rest. And players do make the difference.

I was late in that game as I first checked that out after the TMNT license was lost and the core game was named after the After the Bomb setting.

I found it to be fun and it was my first taste of point-based character creation.

[Toadmaster]

Not all Palladium games were created equal. TMNT was heads above the rest. And players do make the difference.

You know that was the one Palladium game that lasted more than one or two sessions (many barely made it past char gen) when I was in high school. The thing that really hurt TMNT for me was the complete lack of balance. Turtles completely outclassed everything else. If you picked anything other than a turtle it was like playing Melvin in the Superfriends.

[The Main Man]

Heck yeah the animals were not balanced well at all.

[Sketchpad]

You know that was the one Palladium game that lasted more than one or two sessions (many barely made it past char gen) when I was in high school. The thing that really hurt TMNT for me was the complete lack of balance. Turtles completely outclassed everything else. If you picked anything other than a turtle it was like playing Melvin in the Superfriends.
I dunno ... I played a Polar Bear that was pretty cool. I still use him in my supers game today ;)

[Kristopher]

A lot of this goes back to the Hero system having guns do normal damage, likewise leaping from buildings. The house rules we used to play with make guns RKA's, which brings about a slightly different effect. Jump from a multistory building and whether it's a normal or a KA damage depends upon what you land on and the hieght you jumped from.

I'm pretty sure that firearms are RKAs in HERO.

[mayapuppies]

I dunno ... I played a Polar Bear that was pretty cool. I still use him in my supers game today ;)
I still miss my camel that I based loosely on Hannibal from A-Team. Cigar and everything. :D

[Supreme Serpent]

You know that was the one Palladium game that lasted more than one or two sessions (many barely made it past char gen) when I was in high school. The thing that really hurt TMNT for me was the complete lack of balance. Turtles completely outclassed everything else. If you picked anything other than a turtle it was like playing Melvin in the Superfriends.

Well, the turtle *is* the most viscious predator in the animal kingdom...:D

[Susano]

viscious predator

I don't think that means what you think it means. :D

vicious

[Supreme Serpent]

Stop being so viscous! :weep: Keep it up and I'll have to deport your pots! :mad:

[Hugh Neilson]

sigh

Dyslexics of the World - UNTIE!

[FenrisUlf]

Not all Palladium games were created equal. TMNT was heads above the rest. And players do make the difference.

Yes, I loved TMNT and its spinoffs/supplements.

[teh bunneh]

I still have a copy of the original TMNT. Back before they had the skill trees, and you had to buy each and every skill individually. Depending on how you rolled on the Education table, you had to take a certain number of "College" skills, "Hobby" skills, and "Professional" skills. If you took, say, Computer Programming as a Hobby Skill, you would have a 20% + 2% per level chance of success. But if you took it as a Professional Skill, you would have it at 28% + 3% per level. And Computer Use and Computer Programming were two seperate skills, and you had to take Use before you could get Programming.

Character generation was a true charlie-fox back in them days. ;)

[Ragdoll]

I too have a copy of TMNT and other strangeness the RPG. I have a few of the expansions too like Mutants Down Under, etc. Palladium's problem isn't that it's settings suck, some of them are 'quite' engaging, it's the mechanics that are rather behind the times.

[Toadmaster]

I dunno ... I played a Polar Bear that was pretty cool. I still use him in my supers game today ;)

I'm sure some of the large predators were an exception, but the misc dogs, cats, frogs, hamsters, weasels etc we tried were totally outclassed by turtles. I hate games were there are definate classes that you have to play if you don't want to be a second or third line red shirt in the party.

[AlexShinjo]

I started role playing with the palladium games. Mainly the robotech(which i have almost every book of).

Honestly I didn't find much wrong with Palladium other then the skills. I understand it was trying to replicate you would need training to do things like ride a motorcycle or mecha. My point of view on that is that if you were trained to pilot something you should have to make a percent role to be able to turn your mecha while flying. But hey, thats just me.

[Meadyaon]

I have The Heroes Unlimited Revised Second Edition Main Book,Palladium 2nd Edition Main Book, the Rifts RPG Main Book and other Rifts RPG Books.

The people running the Forums of the Megaverse the Palladium message board will modify post if you put in a post something that could be considered a conversion. I had my post about creating Morolck-like being changed They changed Morlck to to Underground Dweller, It goes to show you that they are paranoid about conversions and getting sued. The way strength is handled in Heroes Unlimited is that a character with Supernatural Strength of 106 can Carry 31,800 (15.9 tons), Lift 53,000 (26.5 tons). With the way strength is handled in Rifts I wonders how Robot Vehicles get up when they fall down when some Robot Vehicles can weigh 22 tons. Supernatural Strength in Rifts is a P.S. of 18+ can lift and carry 50x its Strength Score.

I have never seen any penalities for have attributes under a score of 10 in the Palladium System.

In Heroes Unlimted you pick a power power which gives a set of abilities. Thfasted a person can run in Heroes Unlimited is 700 mph. You could not do the Super Skrull in how he can have one arm use the fire powers and the other arm use the thing powers. That means you can not have two Alter Physical Structure powers onm at once. The only way to get new powers as mutant in hHeroes Unllimited to pick the option Continuous Mutation. If you want psionic powers and non psionic powers you can only pick the Continuous Mutation option or pick 1D4+1 minor psionic powers and One Major Super Power.

Palladium is similar to D&D in that you have to rest to get your PPE and ISP back up. ISP is regain at a rate of 2 point per hour of sleep. One hour meditative state regains 6 ISP and is equal to two hours of sleeps. PPE recovers at a rate of 5 per hour of sleep and the mediatative state recovers 10 points per hours. It take a character with 300 PPE 60 hours of sleep or 30 hours of being a meditative state to get those points back.

I would say about 85-95% of the races in Rifts have M.D.C. I might be wrong on that.

[csyphrett]

I would say almost all the monster races would have md. so that should be about 95% of your enemies.
CES

[Meadyaon]

I wonder why people play as humans and other S.D.C. races when most playable races are M.D.C.

One Lovecraftan Monster in Rifts known as Nxla has 111,300 plus 1D4x100,000 M.D.C.

[MisterVimes]

I wonder why people play as humans and other S.D.C. races when most playable races are M.D.C.

One Lovecraftan Monster in Rifts known as Nxla has 111,300 plus 1D4x100,000 M.D.C.

And that is "What's wrong with Palladium"

[Certified]

Is this the bash Palladium thread? Sweet, count me in!

Across all their games I think the core issue I have is balance. This gets highlighted in Rifts where you can have an illiterate vagabond hanging out with dragons or with the right expansions demigods. When I began working on 6th World and later Fractured Kingdom this was a lesson I took to heart.

Mechanically,they system seemed to use more stats than it really needed and figured values became tedious. Every character generation was a test to see how many stat boosting skills you could pick up. I'd say the core dice mechanic but there wasn't one. So how about, the core combat mechanic was simple enough, until you started trying to apply all the various bits and bobs from stats and skills. More than once I found myself with a character I thought was competent only to be proven wrong in session one.

Then you have the Random table Table. For some reason I think Kevin Siembieda may have been in love with randomness. Heroes Unlimited was great for this. Roll for your number of powers, then roll for your powers then roll for components of each power to see how they work.

While I can't say I despise the Palladium system if only for it's settings I will say a lot of times it felt complex simply for the sake of being complex. I did have some interesting games, although rarely did they last more than a session or three . Game aside I think they got hosed over the whole Nightspawn thing.

[Meadyaon]

Here is a reason Heroes Unlimited suck. The way strength is handled in Heroes Unlimited is that a character with Supernatural Strength of 106 can Carry 31,800 (15.9 tons), Lift 53,000 (26.5 tons) In Heroes Unlimited a character with Supernatural Strength can carny 300 times its P.S. and lift 500 times its P.S.

[Zen Archer]

I really like the world(s) they've created for the most part.

I can't imagine actually trying to play the game without seriously scaling things back.

[Meadyaon]

You also have to remember the reason WOTC created Magic the Gathering was to get money to pay for their defense in this lawsuit. And remember the Punchline: They asked TSR if they wanted to go in with them on that 'little' card game. And TSR said no. Cut to several years later, WOTC buys TSR. And changed gaming forever. D20 was born.

All because Kevin sued WOTC for publishing conversion rules for their Primal Order book.

[Meadyaon]

Do not let Palladium find out you said Nightspawn. I really hated how they would change you post on the Forums of Megaverse just to avoid being sued!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you use the word Morlock and you mean the ones from the Time Machine when on the Forums of the MegaVerse call them instead Underground Dwellers. I know that for 100% because I did a post on the Forums of Megaverse about making a character like the Morlocks from the Time Machine.

I wish I could have gotten more into Champions when I first find it instead of in the end going with the Palladium. I originally got the Champions New Millennium Rules book as my first Champions books. At the time nothing happen with the book. I would love to get rid of all my Palladium Books but they are riot in the best shape. Kevin Siembieda sucks!!!

[Certified]

Do not let Palladium find out you said Nightspawn. I really hated how they would change you post on the Forums of Megaverse just to avoid being sued!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you use the word Morlock and you mean the ones from the Time Machine when on the Forums of the MegaVerse call them instead Underground Dwellers. I know that for 100% because I did a post on the Forums of Megaverse about making a character like the Morlocks from the Time Machine.

I wish I could have gotten more into Champions when I first find it instead of in the end going with the Palladium. I originally got the Champions New Millennium Rules book as my first Champions books. At the time nothing happen with the book. I would love to get rid of all my Palladium Books but they are riot in the best shape. Kevin Siembieda sucks!!!

There's a reason for that.


Originally published under the title Nightspawn, the game's name was changed after legal threats from the lawyers ofTodd McFarlane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_McFarlane), creator of the Spawn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spawn_(comics)) comic book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comic_book).

Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightbane)

[Meadyaon]

Takes as I have said before in Rifts it takes 60 hours of sleep to regain 300 PPE.

[Meadyaon]

The whole Mageversal system needs to be fix but Kevin is not really will to fix it.

[megaplayboy]

The concepts and art are interesting, though imo it's a bit of a cluttered mess in execution, and the game system is comparatively imbalanced and awful.

[Derek Hiemforth]

You also have to remember the reason WOTC created Magic the Gathering was to get money to pay for their defense in this lawsuit.[/I][/U][/B]

Cite?

[csyphrett]

Here is a reason Heroes Unlimited suck. The way strength is handled in Heroes Unlimited is that a character with Supernatural Strength of 106 can Carry 31,800 (15.9 tons), Lift 53,000 (26.5 tons) In Heroes Unlimited a character with Supernatural Strength can carny 300 times its P.S. and lift 500 times its P.S.


It's a good thing that it's almost impossible to get that. Mostly you're in the 50-60 range which is 1500-1800 and 2500 lifting
CES

[csyphrett]

They are really scared of being sued for conversions or even a hint of IP violation. Maybe they had to sign a deal over the McFarlane suit. My lawyer had to over suing my mortgage company
CES

[Meadyaon]

I have heard they are in court over the Rifts MMO. I read about it on website,

How can you still be on the 2nd of Heroes Unlimitedm PAlladium Fantasy 2nd Edition and have a Rifts:Ultimate Edition (I have heard it is just has a small amout tweaks to Rifts) when other RPG can be in their fourth edition or better with update to the system to make it better. I think Kevin is stuck in the stone and is unwill to upgrade to system. I do like some of the stuff in Rifts but now I just use the books for some ideas for characters in Champions but with my own take on them.

[Greywind]

I believe everything I read on teh interwebz...

[Meadyaon]

i believe everything i read on teh interwebz...lol!!!

[MisterVimes]

The concepts and art are interesting, though imo it's a bit of a cluttered mess in execution, and the game system is comparatively imbalanced and awful.

This is what happens when you start with a rules set designed for one effect and learn that it is not scalable to larger and unrelated effects.

[Certified]

This is what happens when you start with a rules set designed for one effect and learn that it is not scalable to larger and unrelated effects.

Oh, but haven;t you noticed how it's "tweaked" for each setting in Rifts Acrobatics gives you Set A list of bonuses to a collection of stats and in Heroes Unlimited it gives you List B. They are very similar but almost always slightly changed. My gaming used to think these were system updates and would use the latest published book for our stats. Then we learned they it was meant to be setting alterations.

Who knew!

[Enforcer84]

It's a good thing that it's almost impossible to get that. Mostly you're in the 50-60 range which is 1500-1800 and 2500 lifting
CES

Makes for annoyingly weak superheroes and is about as unlimited as 1-10

[Certified]

Makes for annoyingly weak superheroes and is about as unlimited as 1-10

Roll % and refer to the Unlimited Chart (Table U2) for it's level of Unlimitedness.

[Certified]

Came across this while looking for something completely unrelated.

WTF Juicer Uprising (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeons-and-dragons/rifts-juicer-uprising.php?page=1)

(Was actually looking for an image of dogs.)

[Ternaugh]

There's a reason for that.



Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightbane)

Wow. From the Wikipedia article, it sounds like a cross between Shadowrun and Dark Conspiracy. Then again, Rifts always seemed like a bad retread of Torg. And Palladium Fantasy, well, that really was a thinly-veiled munchkinized version of AD&D, anyway.

JoeG

[AmadanNaBriona]

Came across this while looking for something completely unrelated.

WTF Juicer Uprising (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeons-and-dragons/rifts-juicer-uprising.php?page=1)

(Was actually looking for an image of dogs.)

That struck my funny bone, hard!

Edit/Post Script: "Only Palladium brings you game-critical and detailed information like sub-population statistics of bio-enhanced drug addicts in North America." LULZ

[Certified]

That struck my funny bone, hard

Yep, I've been drug in. I'm reading their Rifts Japan (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeons-and-dragons/rifts-japan.php?page=1) now.

[Meadyaon]

Here is a site I found that take about the problems with Rifts RPG. http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/134404/lets-read-rifts-a-wide-wide-world-of-weirdness/p2

[csyphrett]

Makes for annoyingly weak superheroes and is about as unlimited as 1-10

I left off a zero. It's supposed to be 15,000 pounds carrying and 25000 pounds dead lifting. About 7.5 tons can be carried, while 12.5 tons can just be deadlifted. It's not great compared to Champions, but it's not nothing to sneeze at either
CES

[Captain Obvious]

There's a reason for that.



Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightbane)

They're afraid H.G. Wells will sue if someone says Morlock on their forums?

[csyphrett]

They're afraid H.G. Wells will sue if someone says Morlock on their forums?

One of the moderators just shut down a thread where a guy was asking how to build a wolverine clone. Personally I don't see what the hassle is unless it's some kind of blowback from the spawn thing and the thing where City of Heroes was asked to strip the Wolverine and other clones they had going on for a while there.

The weird thing is that Palladium is the only company with a forum that forbids that kind of thing and I have never seen a reason why other than it's a forum/company rule.
Here at the hero boards, Enforcer, Susano, Oddhat, myself, and others have done conversions/characters based on published guys. There is was several threads at the Angel forum with conversions to unisystem. I think M&M had coverted threads before they got the license for DC. I think I also saw conversions at the old GOO forums before they crashed.

CES

[Susano]

Here at the hero boards, Enforcer, Susano, Oddhat, myself, and others have done conversions/characters based on published guys.

It gets better than that for me. I had Gene Ha (comic artist) write me with regards to my work on characters from the comic Top Ten. Not only did he like my work, he gave suggestions on improvements based on background info he knew that wasn't apparent in the comic. In addition, I recall getting an email from one of the people behind Godlike, who saw my work on HERO character sheets for Godlike characters. I recall getting a complement on my work as well as his recognizing that what I was doing amounted to free advertising for his product (it also didn't hurt I say in the character sheets 'get Godlike to know more.')

[MisterVimes]

Oh, but haven;t you noticed how it's "tweaked" for each setting in Rifts Acrobatics gives you Set A list of bonuses to a collection of stats and in Heroes Unlimited it gives you List B. They are very similar but almost always slightly changed. My gaming used to think these were system updates and would use the latest published book for our stats. Then we learned they it was meant to be setting alterations.

Who knew!

Heh. No, I haven't looked at it lately, but it always seemed like cobbling onto more cobbling -- not unlike White Wolf ended up doing. Mega-Damage was simply the most egregious of the out-of-scale, unsubstainable growth.

[Captain Obvious]

It gets better than that for me. I had Gene Ha (comic artist) write me with regards to my work on characters from the comic Top Ten. Not only did he like my work, he gave suggestions on improvements based on background info he knew that wasn't apparent in the comic. In addition, I recall getting an email from one of the people behind Godlike, who saw my work on HERO character sheets for Godlike characters. I recall getting a complement on my work as well as his recognizing that what I was doing amounted to free advertising for his product (it also didn't hurt I say in the character sheets 'get Godlike to know more.')

ABOMINATION!

You represent the opposite of everything Keven Simbieda stands for.

[Susano]

ABOMINATION!

You represent the opposite of everything Keven Simbieda stands for.

Apparently.

[Enforcer84]

I left off a zero. It's supposed to be 15,000 pounds carrying and 25000 pounds dead lifting. About 7.5 tons can be carried, while 12.5 tons can just be deadlifted. It's not great compared to Champions, but it's not nothing to sneeze at either
CES

No it's nice for urban fantasy. And I'd love to be able to do it. But for superheroics...it's a bit tame.

[Enforcer84]

Apparently.

And happily

[Mister E]

...Personally I don't see what the hassle is unless it's some kind of blowback from the spawn thing and the thing where City of Heroes was asked to strip the Wolverine and other clones they had going on for a while there...

iirc, Wolverine was problematic but the Incredible Hulk was the main issue.

[Ternaugh]

iirc, Wolverine was problematic but the Incredible Hulk was the main issue.

It's not easy being green.

[Lucius]

The thing that completely turned me off of Palladium was an essay in "Villains Unlimited," in which Kevin S goes on at great length about how it is simply impossible for a person to knock another person unconscious. Any game designer who wastes a page and a half for a rant against one of the staple conventions of the superhero genre is missing a few cards from his deck, IMHO. :P

Bill.


forget genre conventions. has he ever been to a professional boxing match? or been hit in the head with a hard blunt object?

Three years later I'm still asking.....

and if not....why not?

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary wonders what going to boxing match would solve

[Meadyaon]

How about this cyborg from the The Warlords of Russia. The arms have 1,000 less M.D.C. then the main body.
Thunderstorm Artillery Cyborg
M.D.C. by Location:
Cannon Barrels (2) -- 180 each
Cannon & Missile Housing -- 300
Rail Guns (2; forearms) -- 40 each
Concealed Laser Rod (2; both arms) -- 20 each
Head Canister Lasers (2) -- 60 each
Large Energy Hammer (1; hand-held) -- 90
Hands (2) -- 75 each
Arms (2) -- 240 each
Legs (2) -- 350 each
Feet (2) -- 150
Head with Mechanical Face Plate -- 200
Main Body -- 1,240 M.D.C. with heavy armor plating

[Meadyaon]

One of the moderators just shut down a thread where a guy was asking how to build a wolverine clone. Personally I don't see what the hassle is unless it's some kind of blowback from the spawn thing and the thing where City of Heroes was asked to strip the Wolverine and other clones they had going on for a while there.

The weird thing is that Palladium is the only company with a forum that forbids that kind of thing and I have never seen a reason why other than it's a forum/company rule.
Here at the hero boards, Enforcer, Susano, Oddhat, myself, and others have done conversions/characters based on published guys. There is was several threads at the Angel forum with conversions to unisystem. I think M&M had coverted threads before they got the license for DC. I think I also saw conversions at the old GOO forums before they crashed.

CESI think it has to do with Kevin's lawyer but I am not sure on that.
They changed my using the world Morlock to Underground Dweller because Morlocks are found in Marvel Comics. Also Ithink they did not want to get in trouble with Marvel is also why I think they changed it.

[The Main Man]

I swear this thread will return in 2016. Anyways, I now wonder how Palladium material would translate to M&M. Probably about as well as it does to HERO.

Another persistent complaint of move is that values 3-15 of any stat does nothing - what's the point then?

[Meadyaon]

I disliked the fact there was no penalties for low stats.

[Hugh Neilson]

Another persistent complaint of move is that values 3-15 of any stat does nothing - what's the point then?

I think that shows the D&D roots, as stats had to be pretty high prior to 3e for stats to generate any form of bonus, and cut deep enough that few characters had stats low enough to inflict a penalty.

Practically, we could just give everyone a bonus in d20 games. Raise all DC's by 5, make a stat of 0-1 "no bonus" and make the bonus "Stat/2". It might get over the psychological barrier that "no bonus" is OK, but I don't want my character to be PENALIZED!

[Meadyaon]

Rifts: Inconsistencies http://spleen.mearcair.net/rifts/errors.htm

[Captain Obvious]

Holy crap...I never look at Rifts stuff any more, and now I see what a good thing that has been.

[csyphrett]

I only glanced at the page of inconsistencies but some of it is wrong just from the brief glance. I don't have time right now to go back through and look at all of it.
CES

[AmadanNaBriona]

Behold the awesome power of my BOOM gun, as it flings a 3mm flechette at Mach 2!

Yeah, Kev. Great Glitterboy flavor text. Shoots a needle slower than a modern assault rifle. Very scary.

[Certified]

Behold the awesome power of my BOOM gun, as it flings a 3mm flechette at Mach 2!

Yeah, Kev. Great Glitterboy flavor text. Shoots a needle slower than a modern assault rifle. Very scary.

Whoah! I never knew assault rifles did 3d6x10 Mega-Damage! The future is now people.

*Goes to put on his Super SAMAS Power Armor*

I've been waiting to calf-spike someone.

42463

[AmadanNaBriona]

Whoah! I never knew assault rifles did 3d6x10 Mega-Damage! The future is now people.

*Goes to put on his Super SAMAS Power Armor*

I've been waiting to calf-spike someone.

42463

Only in burst fire.
Because the reason for automatic weapons is so infantrymen can take on tanks, I suppose.

[Certified]

Only in burst fire.
Because the reason for automatic weapons is so infantrymen can take on tanks, I suppose.

My calf spikes require no auto-fire!

[csyphrett]

Behold the awesome power of my BOOM gun, as it flings a 3mm flechette at Mach 2!

Yeah, Kev. Great Glitterboy flavor text. Shoots a needle slower than a modern assault rifle. Very scary.

It shoots two hundred slugs at mach two at a single target. The speciality listed is for anti aircraft. the basic problem with a glitter boy is the hype. I have had a team of supers take one down, and heard one person who I had no reason to doubt say he took one down with a veritech.

Its a single fire cannon on a suit of armor.
CES

[AmadanNaBriona]

It shoots two hundred slugs at mach two at a single target. The speciality listed is for anti aircraft. the basic problem with a glitter boy is the hype. I have had a team of supers take one down, and heard one person who I had no reason to doubt say he took one down with a veritech.

Its a single fire cannon on a suit of armor.
CES

200 One inch, 3mm slugs at mach 2.

letssee.... volume of a cylinder... figure Osmium penetrators for best density and because it's SCIENCE (and I don't know what magical non-periodic table elements RIFTS added)... I'm getting around 16 grams or 246 grains
@ Mach 2 (2250 FPS, more or less), footpounds @ muzzle are around...
I'm getting around 2765 Ft/Lbs.
About the same as a NATO 7.62, or a .500 S&W

Better than I expected, but I don't doubt in any system that pays any attention they'd have bumped that up to real railgun speeds, at least Mach 5 (properly hypersonic), and in a system that doesn't do the "More shots = MOAR penetration" thing this wouldn't do jack or squat, much less do "Vaporize hillsides" levels of damage.

And those numbers PLUMMET, if you use materials like Lead or Depleted Uranium that don't come from the platina group and have to be dug out of asteroids to obtain in bulk...


EDIT: Also note, I'm hacking on his flavor text. Hacking on the Rifts system is kinda pointless. It's like mocking FATAL. Shooting Fish in a Barrel

[csyphrett]

The system is okay, but I only use it for my two HU games. A lot of the more dedicated Rifts players at the PAL forums feel the company line favors the Coalition when by any standard they apply the CSA should be decimated by the tactics they use in the setting books. Basically Kevin likes the Coalition, so they win in the official settng material when they should be broken.

Grabbing onto setting stuff and trying to make it make sense is like asking how come blaster fire is so slow in Star Wars. It just is.
CES

[Gary Miles]

Wow. From the Wikipedia article, it sounds like a cross between Shadowrun and Dark Conspiracy. Then again, Rifts always seemed like a bad retread of Torg. And Palladium Fantasy, well, that really was a thinly-veiled munchkinized version of AD&D, anyway.

JoeGI think Rifts was out a long time before Torg.

[megaplayboy]

200 One inch, 3mm slugs at mach 2.

letssee.... volume of a cylinder... figure Osmium penetrators for best density and because it's SCIENCE (and I don't know what magical non-periodic table elements RIFTS added)... I'm getting around 16 grams or 246 grains
@ Mach 2 (2250 FPS, more or less), footpounds @ muzzle are around...
I'm getting around 2765 Ft/Lbs.
About the same as a NATO 7.62, or a .500 S&W

Better than I expected, but I don't doubt in any system that pays any attention they'd have bumped that up to real railgun speeds, at least Mach 5 (properly hypersonic), and in a system that doesn't do the "More shots = MOAR penetration" thing this wouldn't do jack or squat, much less do "Vaporize hillsides" levels of damage.

And those numbers PLUMMET, if you use materials like Lead or Depleted Uranium that don't come from the platina group and have to be dug out of asteroids to obtain in bulk...


EDIT: Also note, I'm hacking on his flavor text. Hacking on the Rifts system is kinda pointless. It's like mocking FATAL. Shooting Fish in a Barrel

It did seem like it should have been more like "Mach 20" than "Mach 2", given how much damage the dang thing was supposed to do. And a single 30 mm, long sabot would probably do a lot more damage to hard targets than a bunch of tiny flechettes.

[Twilight]

I dropped RIFTS after the excreble Seige on Tolkeen series. The one where Siembeida himself mentions in the opening paragraphs of the first book, that there was no way for the Coalition to lose. He flat out says his favourite characters are the only ones who can win, so unless you like his favourite toys you wasted money on the series.

Then he gives the Tolkeen side a spell that blights entire fields of crops and an artifact that lets you cause a tornado, a volcano, an earthquake and a tsunami each once a day. X_X

[Susano]

It did seem like it should have been more like "Mach 20" than "Mach 2", given how much damage the dang thing was supposed to do. And a single 30 mm, long sabot would probably do a lot more damage to hard targets than a bunch of tiny flechettes.

Wouldn't a solid projectile, traveling at Mach 20, burn up in the atmosphere? Or, at least, turn into so some sort of plasma?

[Zen Archer]

I think Rifts was out a long time before Torg.

Actually, I think they were released fairly close to each other. But Palladium's Beyond the Supernatural (which is some ways was a prequel to Rifts) was released several years earlier.

[Certified]

Wouldn't a solid projectile, traveling at Mach 20, burn up in the atmosphere? Or, at least, turn into so some sort of plasma?

Obviously not if it was a Mega Damage Structure.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Am I the only one who finds the term Glitter Boy more than a bit ridiculous? Whenever I hear Glitter Boy, it makes me think of 70s glam rock...

[Enforcer84]

What's wrong with that?

All the young dudes, carry the news, boogaloo dudes, carry the news...

[Greywind]

No one liked the Glitter Girls.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Am I the only one who finds the term Glitter Boy more than a bit ridiculous? Whenever I hear Glitter Boy, it makes me think of 70s glam rock...

I'm honestly surprised to hear that coming from you. (see Coprolite)
It always rang totally true to me, the kind of nickname service rivals would hang on hotshot Power Armor jocks, especially looking the way they do.

[Twilight]

So we're not going to comment about how Tolkeen could've obliterated the Coalition with the two things I mentioned? That the whole Seige on Tolkeen would've been more like, Coaltion Curbstomped in About A Month? Probably for the best.

[AmadanNaBriona]

I'm developing a theory that the reason Palladium Games are so beloved is really very tied to a strange dynamic.

The broad subject appeal, high art value and smart use of licenses got them a good hunk of brand new to the hobby gamers, and although I personally loathe the system TMNT was the least broken iteration out of the box, playability wise, so most of those new gamers at least got their brains wet with the foundations of a system before pluning into the deeper waters and finding how broken the game was.

So broken, in fact, that fixing the system, creating a set of house rules to make that awesome setting actually playable, seems to have motivated many gamers into their first introduction to co-operative game design and rules deconstruction.

[AmadanNaBriona]

So we're not going to comment about how Tolkeen could've obliterated the Coalition with the two things I mentioned? That the whole Seige on Tolkeen would've been more like, Coaltion Curbstomped in About A Month? Probably for the best.

Sorry.... My higher brain functions made me blank your post because it couldn't handle the stupid.
Yeah, Plot armor is the only reason the Coalition was so tough

[Twilight]

Sorry.... My higher brain functions made me blank your post because it couldn't handle the stupid.
Yeah, Plot armor is the only reason the Coalition was so tough

In retrospect, I should have foreseen the effect the sheer stupid might have on a person. Just for lulz however, here's how the Coalition/Tolkeen conflict would go if I were running Tolkeen.

Step 1: A wizard uses the blight spell on Coalition crops, essentially wiping out a large amount of their food supply.

Step 2: Use the artifact to cause a tornado in the middle of advancing Coalition forces. Have some powerful Air Warlocks, one who can cast tornado without the artifact, toss in their own tornados to ensure maximum damage.

Step 3: Use the artifact to erupt a volcano beneath Chi-Town.

Step 4: Cause an earthquake in whatever the second most important Coalition town.

Step 5: Use a tsunami to wipe out any Coalition forces or military installations near the water.

Keep this up and I figure the Coalition goes under within a month or two. Of course Tolkeen basically replaces it as most hated nation as a result of what happened but hey, it beats being exterminated by Siembieda's giant robot and power armour Nazis.

[csyphrett]

No one liked the Glitter Girls.

They have glitter girls. they are a variation with lighter armor and lighter guns
CES

[csyphrett]

So we're not going to comment about how Tolkeen could've obliterated the Coalition with the two things I mentioned? That the whole Seige on Tolkeen would've been more like, Coaltion Curbstomped in About A Month? Probably for the best.

I haven't read a setting book in a while but this is what I mentioned above. I agree with you.
CES