Suplement Question

[The Raven]

Any recamendations on the Champions supplement, "Wrath of the Seven Horsemen"?

[Lord Liaden]

Personally, I quite enjoyed it. The central characters are colorful and dangerous, and make good recurring villains for your PCs either singly and as a group. The adventure is a little disjointed IMO, but builds well to an intriguing climax. What I liked most about it, though, is all the stuff that is left for a GM to play with when the adventure is ended: not just supervillain NPCs, but Lovecraftian horrors, plot device artifacts, and several sources of character origins and "radiation accidents". I derived quite a few game sessions out of those leftovers.;)

Word of warning, though: this adventure is for pre-4th Ed. Champions, so quite a few of the characters' Powers and Skills will be built, cost, and function somewhat differently from those using the later rulesets. Converting is not too difficult if you're comfortable with 4E or 5E, but it will require some work.

[Tom McCarthy]

I really liked Wrath of the Seven Horsemen for the inspiration and ideas it gave.

The villains were all too powerful for the heroes I was running, and the whole adventure was more like chapters to be dropped into an ongoing campaign rather than as back to back sessions (though not stated clearly as such). Other problems in execution were less obvious (Death keeps all his levels of Growth on for as long as he has the END to do so, you're told; Death bought Growth as 0 END). At the time, I only had 4th edition rules, and it was a third edition module, but you could still figure out how to rewrite everything in 4th edition easily (and it's no harder with 5th).

I was pretty shocked when one of the Hero insiders on the boards said they fought the Horsemen before they were toned down for publication.

[death tribble]

I sicced the Horsemen onto the main GM of the campaign. It was tough going for them.

I am not so sure about the denouement but the build up is good and the Horsemen are very nice.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Tom McCarthy
I was pretty shocked when one of the Hero insiders on the boards said they fought the Horsemen before they were toned down for publication.

Looking at the power of some of the new published villains, I'd say that the Horsemen's power level could be raised for any revision to 5E. This remembering that the Horsemen were intended to be a significant danger to experienced heroes, and that they tend to fight as individuals with poor teamwork.

[Law Dog]

Even for the time, the villains were horribly designed and calculated.

One of the villains had an OAF that teleported back to his hand whenver he was disarmed. Yeah, that's an OAF.

A compitent GM probably count use the designs for inspiration and come up with some viable designs.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Law Dog
Even for the time, the villains were horribly designed and calculated.

One of the villains had an OAF that teleported back to his hand whenver he was disarmed. Yeah, that's an OAF.

A compitent GM probably count use the designs for inspiration and come up with some viable designs.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say "horribly designed", but yes, there were errors and misrepresentations common to Hero Games' products at the time. I definitely agree, though, that the characters are better as concepts than as models of design. In my own campaign I modified their abilities a fair amount to give them "plague powers", "war powers" etc. that reflected a tighter concept and sfx.

[The Raven]

Well it sounds interesting enough if I can pick it up for a few bucks.

[Tom McCarthy]

I've dusted off Wrath after reviewing the thread. Conversions still seem easy to do. Conceptually, it's interesting the subject matter is still very 'on topic' today. How do you make heroes feel real dread ? What does it take to create horror in superheroes ?

Compared to 5th edition characters, they are short on skills (as one would expect; before 4th edition mundane skills practically don't exist in Champions). They use END Battery instead of END Reserve, outdated EC rules, list limitations as positive fractions rather than negative, etc. Still, each character looks like no more than half an hour's work to bring up to date (more if you're unhappy with how the author attempts to capture the feel of such a primal entity).

Interior art is credited to Jason Waltrip, but Destruction looks like the work of Scott (Protectors) Heine (or is that Bennie ?).

Notes:
Northern Star
Needs some skills
Based on 100 points; bump to 150
EC rules have changed
END costs have changed to 1/10 active points
END Battery replaced with END reserve
Flight slot in EC adding to flight outside EC may be illegal
Recharge power might better be bought as Aid to END Reserve with Side Effects
Change END destruction to long term END drain

Elder White Crawler
END Cost now 1/10 active points
Extra limbs much simpler
Don't buy Growth always on, take physical limitations from Bestiary
Mind Control command is 'Freeze'
Public ID and Unusual Looks probably don't apply...

White Crawler Larvae
EC inappropriate
Don't buy shrinking, take Physical limitation from Bestiary

Prime
The beak shouldn't be OIF
TK is no longer rated in dice, and BOECV would significantly raise slot cost
Starknights may need to be replaced with Star*Guard

Black Death
Don't buy Growth always on, buy Physical limitation from bestiary
Replace piercing with extra DCs or armour piercing or penetrating, or even extra DCs, only to eliminate points of resistant defence.
Repricing will significantly change cost

Famine
PD and ED aren't OIF claws.
Why are claws OIF ? Restrainable more applicable.
END Destruction becomes Drain END, continuous, damage shield, slow recovery
BODY destruction becomes Drain BODY, slow recovery
No skills !

Death
Needs more skills
Desolidification no longer bought in levels
Claws should be restrainable, not OIF
Consider replacing Growth and DI powers with a multiform to large, dense figure

War
No skills !
Massive KAs are rarely used; an important note

Fear
Piercing again
2D6 Ego Destruction becomes Drain EGO 4D6, slow recovery
Martial arts based on adding DCs, not multiplying
Archaeology and treasure hunting skills required

Destruction
Way beyond campaign limits for DEX
Huge climbing roll; consider clinging
Damage shield should have AE and continuous

Plague
Needs skills appropriate to his hypochondria
Replace piercing
Change transformation attack; cumulative now standard, but partial result is a bonus
EC looks illegal
Desolidification not bought by levels now
BODY destruction becomes Drain BODy, slow recovery

Dread
Notes talk about 6D6 from STR, but it's STR 40
Notes talk about 3D6 CON transfer, but it's 2D6 CON destruction
1D6 flash is now 2D6 in 5th edition
Only vs. darkness and cold is more like -1 or -1/2, not -2
Sword isn't really an OAF

On the whole, these are nasty, nasty villains writ large; thay have big, splashy attacks and equally glaring weaknesses, vulnerabilities, and psychological limitations out the wazoo. For example, it's not enough to hate magicians, one of the characters is berserk at the sight of a magician.

[The Raven]

Now that was incredibly helpfull.

[Kirby]

First, thanks to Lord Liaden for showing me this thread.

Tom, I think you did a great 'upgrade' mentio with the characters. So great that I printed it out for when I convert The Wrath of the Seven Horsemen to 5E. The only one I see you missed (unless you thought they didn't need mentioning) was the Norwegian Sea Ranger. I personally would change them to 150 points total (instead of 106) and suggest giving them range levels with their ranger weapons as well as called shot modifiers. Sure, it won't have much of an impact here, but overall it will make them more 5E. Also, their martial arts (Commando Training) need to be expanded into the maneuvers.

Other than that, great thread. :thumbup: