Cultural package deals prefabs or not?

[GloryFox]

How does one create a Cultural package deal that includes negative characteristics such as the Lightworlder on page 29 in STAR HERO and include a racial template at the same time. Do I load the Cultural package as a prefab or a racial template? WARNING The Cultural package deal PAGE 29 in STAR HERO has negative characteristics listed as disadvantages. So does the Racial Template I am useing.

Keep in mind, these are Steves published rules not mine.

Will Characteristics be listed for disadvantages under the disadvantage TAB section of Hero Designer in the future? I hope it does it might solve some of the issues on for forum lately.

Gloryfox

[Simon]

If I'm understanding what you're asking here, those are Physical Limitation instances.

Like any other specific example of a Disad, those are left to a prefab or character instance to define (the same way you don't have "Code Against Killing" listed in the main disad list).

HD will provide you with all Disadvantages defined in the rules. The creation of specific instances of those Disads is up to the user (or a prefab).

If you're talking about reduced starting values for certain characteristics (e.g. a child starting with a STR of 5), then you use the "Save As Template"/"New Character from Template" functionality that is built into the app -- this allows you to define a "starting point" for any character.

[GloryFox]

Here is specifically what I am referring to.

I have a Racial Package deal (Saved as Racial Template because you cannot load Negative characteristics in a Prefab) called Insectoid from page 25 of Star HERO. Normally I would Load it and it shows what I need it to show as a Racial Template. Then there is a Cultural Package deal Lightworlder page 29 in Star HERO (Also saved as Racial Template because you cannot load Negative characteristics in a Prefab). Under Cultural packages negative characteristics are listed as a disadvantage this may or may not apply. Is there a way to load both Insectoid and Lightworlder Racial Templates at the same time since the negative characteristics of both Race and Culture cannot be saved in a Prefab? In future releases would you consider allowing negative characteristics to be listed for prefabs (or just prefabs only) for ease of loading both a Race and a Culture package deals at the same time? From a user’s point of view allowing negative characteristics under powers would solve this problem. But I don’t want to go there today. Right now I just want to load racial packages and Cultural packages at the same time for ease of HD use.

Gloryfox

[Simon]

Outside of combining the Insectoid and Lightworlder templates into a "Lightworlder Insectoid" template, no, there is no way to load multiple templates at the same time (in the way that you're looking to do things).

Negative Characteristic Powers are not under consideration at any point (prefab or character).

Prefabs are not intended for the use that you're looking at. Prefabs are meant to be used to give you access to frequently-used Power constructs. A Characteristic is too simple of an entity to require a Prefab -- it's just levels.

A Characteristic Power, on the otherhand, may involve complicated construction details (Advantages, Limitations, etc), similar to other Powers.

This is why you have Prefab tabs on the Powers, Skills, Perks, Talents, Martail Arts, and Disadvantage tabs, but not on the Characteristics tab.

Racial Packages are defined through the "Save As Template"/"New Character From Template" functionality. While some thought may be given to allowing a user to select multiple templates in the future, I highly doubt that this will ever come to pass, if only due to the numerous conflicts that could arise.

[GloryFox]

Thank you for your reply. All Campaign spacific rules aside HD is a wonderful program for what it is so far. As I said before my players have a renewed intrest for HERO because of HD. Although some things should be made easyier for the user's.

[Killer Shrike]

I havent tried to do it in a few months, but IIRC you can apply a race cutsom template, save the character as a template, open new character from that template, and then apply a cultural custom template.

[GloryFox]

Thank you but the issue was more related to adding negative characteristics and multi NCMs to cultural package deals and racial package deals. A prefab is a great way of doing Package deals but does not suppot negative characteristics. They (Steve and Simon) seem to be hypercritical on the matter. On the one hand they allow it on page 25 5th ed published rules but they wont address the matter in HD. You can't win on everything so I have to adjust my campaign to fit their campaign. For the sake of my players using HD my 20years of custom campaigns just went to the toilet.

Gloryfox

[Simon]

You are mis-reading the rules. The page you cite refers to negative Characteristics, not negative Characteristic Powers. Characteristics and Characteristic Powers are two very different things.

[GloryFox]

I’m sorry I should have clarified the word "it" as NCM's. Negative characteristics are just apart of any package deal (Racial Template in the case of HD). In reality most Characteristic Powers modify the NCM inherently. The effect I was looking for was to lower the inherent NCM for certain races as a disadvantage like Power Characteristics do to increase inherent NCM’s.

Gloryfox

[Simon]

I may still be misunderstanding you....

Characteristic Powers do not affect NCM at all.

You can have a character with NCM and take +60 STR as a Power and still pay only 60 points for it. Take, for example (assume standard NCM has been applied):

10 STR (Characteristic) - cost 0
+60 STR (Power) - cost 60
+5 STR (Characteristic) - cost 5

The STR Characteristic (as far as NCM is concerned) in the above example is 15, well within the limit. The total STR (including Powers) is 75, but that does not matter from the perspective of NCM.

This is part (small part, but part) of what I am talking about when I say that Characteristic Powers are distinct from Characteristics (with their own set of rules)

[GloryFox]

Lets take a normal Human with 20 STR cost =10

He purchases the Paladin Class package deal (shown as a prefab in the downloadable zip for Hero Designer). He gets +5 STR added to this characteristic for the Paladin Package Deal (prefab).

For all intents and purposes he appears to have a NCM of 25. When in reality he has NCM of 20 and a +5 STR power.

Now do Paladins really have NCM’s of 20 or 25? For all intents and purposes he has an NCM of 25 in appearance and any stat increase above 25 paid with double points as long as he paid for that package deal from the prefab.

I needed for some of my campaigns a prefab like the Paladin class that has NCM lower than 20. Cultural package deals cover this area however you can’t give prefabs negative characteristics like the Lightworlder page 29 in Star HERO. Like the package deals in other HERO books used as examples. These must not be prefabs but racial templates. It seems to me it would have been easier to allow something in the designer to allow for Negative characteristics than creating a racial template for every race and culture (too much work in my case). Now I have to create a Racial template for all races in all cultures I have in my campaigns. When it would have been easier as a "user" to have loaded two prefabs then copy paste.

As for Page 25 it covers the NCM GM variants. Since my campaign does have variant NCM’s via page 25 using HD will alter many campaign settings we play. Page 25 also covers reduced characteristics and it covers limiting characteristics. A reduced characteristic is still a characteristic and by core rules can have limitations per page 25 and 92. BUT that is a different thread altogether.


BTW thank you again for a Great product.

Gloryfox

[lrojas]

maybe if there was some way of specifying a "buyback" in the templates...

theres got to be a way to define

STR 8 ( wich by all purposes mean -2 to str ) in the characters...

how hard could it be to make a custom power/perk/talent/whatever that basically took the amount you specified and subtracted it from the score....

wich gives me an idea...

can i have a drain that is permanent aplied to myself and bought as a weakness? lest say a permanent STR drain of 2 points ?


( sorry, dont know the rules that well to see if this is a crappy idea )

[Killer Shrike]

You are misunderstanding the intent of the bonus stats in the Profession Packages, Glory.

In the case of your theoretical Paladin package with +5 STR, what that is saying is that Paladins, regardless of background, generally recieve sufficient training/development to have at least 5 more STR than other baseline people.

If you have already bought up your character's STR prior to taking the Paladin Package, then you have in effect already accomplished the intended effect -- the Paladin is at least 5 pts stronger than normal.


If it helps you to conceptualize, consider taking a stock character, applying all packages in order from Race, Culture, and Profession, and only then tweaking Characteristics and other abilities to suit.

[Killer Shrike]

I've had this argument (or a similar one at any rate) with Dan back when the ability to have negative characteristic Powers was turned off.

It sucks to have to reconsider previous habits of doing this, particularly if you already have a body of work in place, but the fact is that Dan is right. By the letter of the rules negative characteristic Powers are not legal. There are several shadings of why it is impractical for them to have negative values, but there is one single definitive reason:

All Powers must cost at least 1 point

Negative Characteristic Powers cost less than 1 point

Therefore they are not legal.

And based upon that clear cut premise I came to agree with Dan's position on this.

Just consider it a watershed revelation and adopt the book-legal "best practices" method or accept that there are some hoops that must be jumped thru otherwise.

Arguing with Dan will just get you added to his $#!^ list and your threads locked which is counterproductive, so please take my advice and stop. Dan wont budge on this until Steve changes his mind.

[GloryFox]

No because one of the intended effects of what I want to do is a negative NCM. I can affect the NCM to go positive. I need it to go negative.

Here is an example of a Campaign Specific rule we have.

Characters from planet cultures that have stat disadvantages have a lower NCM than others. Just as some cultures have bonuses to characteristics such as Heavyworlders. So in the case of a Lightworlder that lists as disadvantages -2 STR -1 CON and -1 Body he/she would have a NCM 10 higher then than his starting Culture and race values. We in our gaming community have always had that rule. At least since the days of Shadoworld :) .

[GloryFox]

I also agree on the powers argument, but I can’t do it elsewhere. ALSO re read page 25, 92, and 336 these are the exceptions. If I could do it as a prefab under disadvantages that would suffice. Since HERO lists negative stats as disadvantages in many package deals. I also want that included in HD. Overall its the users who recommend any product no matter how good it is.

Gloryfox

[Simon]

Several things here:

1) GloryFox: you're still thinking of Characteristic Powers as Characteristics. They are not. The Paladin in the example you cite does not have a 25 NCM, he has a 20 NCM. Characteristic Powers have nothing to do with NCM and do not affect it in any way.

I have nothing to do with the prefabs and character packs that are distributed. If they are having you purchase +5 STR as a Power in defining a Paladin package deal, then it is up to you to know and recognize the rules ramifications of doing this.

2) Chances are likely that you are looking to purchase +5 STR as a Characteristic (not a Characteristic Power) to create a Paladin. That would make the +5 act against the NCM (which remains at 20).

3) If you <i>really</i> want to create custom NCM levels, you are perfectly able to do so. As this entails custom rules (outside of the standard Hero System, which defines the NCM levels contained in HD), you create a custom template to do this. The documentation contains details on this.


As a general note, both GloryFox and lrojas are still thinking of prefabs as "package deals" -- they are not. There is no reason for the app to be adjusted due to your misconceptions of prefabs.

If you want to define a package deal, you will generally use a combination of prefabs and character templates.

The character template is created simply: build a "character" that will be used as the starting point for all characters who take that package. This starting point includes both the Characteristic starting levels as well as the Skills/Perks/Talents/Powers/Disads that all characters with that package will have. "File -> Save As Template" and you're done.

The prefab is used to define the "optional" items and the "choose X of the following Y" types of lists. You certainly don't need to do this in a prefab (you can include it with a note in the character template), but it is generally handled this way.

The main intent of prefabs is (as the name suggests) to provide easy access to preconstructed (<b>prefab</b>ridcated) abilities. Not package deals. Preconstructed abilities. There is no need to preconstruct a Characteristic -- there is nothing to construct....it's just levels.

[Killer Shrike]

No because one of the intended effects of what I want to do is a negative NCM. I can affect the NCM to go positive. I need it to go negative.

Here is an example of a Campaign Specific rule we have.

Characters from planet cultures that have stat disadvantages have a lower NCM than others. Just as some cultures have bonuses to characteristics such as Heavyworlders. So in the case of a Lightworlder that lists as disadvantages -2 STR -1 CON and -1 Body he/she would have a NCM 10 higher then than his starting Culture and race values. We in our gaming community have always had that rule. At least since the days of Shadoworld :) .
Youre mixing culture and race. Lightworlders and Heavyworlders are effectively a subrace of the "normalworlder" race, whatever that race may be. To adjust their characteristics, handle it with a single Race package deal. The ASP tool I pointed you to will create a custom template that adjusts the NCM both positively and negatively.

Your original post was that you want to modify the NCM with both a race and a culture based adjustment. Just do all the NCM adjusts in one go and you'll be ok.

[Simon]

I also agree on the powers argument, but I can’t do it elsewhere. ALSO re read page 25, 92, and 336 these are the exceptions. If I could do it as a prefab under disadvantages that would suffice. Since HERO lists negative stats as disadvantages in many package deals. I also want that included in HD. Overall its the users who recommend any product no matter how good it is.

Gloryfox
Page 25 discusses creating your own (custom) NCM levels. This is done through a custom template and is discussed in the documentation.

Page 92 discusses Characteristic Powers and does not mention negative Characteristic Powers (which are illegal, with the sole exception of COM).

Page 336 simply restates the obvious: there are no "Rules Police" -- you can change things as you wish. That is outside of the scope of HD. While HD is designed to allow for a rather sizable amount of customization (easily), there are some things that you cannot customize. Among those is the "no Negative Characteristic Powers" rule. There are numerous reasons for this, many of which have been cited previously. This is not a "shortcoming" in the application. If you're looking for complete freedom in customization, don't use HD -- use a pen(cil) and paper.

[GloryFox]

3) If you really want to create custom NCM levels, you are perfectly able to do so. As this entails custom rules (outside of the standard Hero System, which defines the NCM levels contained in HD), you create a custom template to do this. The documentation contains details on this. 3)

Thank you

That was very helpful!

I will re look this up under the documantation for custom NCM's. And no I am not confused and I use prefabs for what I intend to use em for.

Gloryfox

[Killer Shrike]

I also agree on the powers argument, but I can’t do it elsewhere. ALSO re read page 25, 92, and 336 these are the exceptions. If I could do it as a prefab under disadvantages that would suffice. Since HERO lists negative stats as disadvantages in many package deals. I also want that included in HD. Overall its the users who recommend any product no matter how good it is.

GloryfoxThats just a notation format. In a package deal there are basically things that cost points, and things that generate points. All normal rules for such still apply.

Trying to make a case based upon the Package Deal notation is frail indeed. The Package Deal notation has a number of inconsistencies inherent to it's lay out.

For example (in addition to the negative characteristics under Disads snafu):

A Package Deal can also list any amount of Disadvantages, but a character taking that Package Deal is still limited by their max Disad total.

The Disads (and other negs like characteristic adjustments) are subtracted from the cost of the abilities contained by the package in an aggregated amount, but that doesnt mean that you just pay that amount -- it's really a meaningless and misleading value.


Packages by their nature are generic and mutable based upon what you attach them to. The notation for Packages is poor even considering that, and claiming that HD should allow negative characteristics as Disadvantages because negative characteristic adjustments are listed under that header in Package Deals is a weak argument until and unless the rules are adjusted to allow negative characteristics to be taken as Disadvantages in general.

[Teflon Billy]

So how would I apply multiple templates to a character? As KS mentions Race, Culture, and Profession.

As it is, it seems that I would only be able to add one template (the one I start off with).

TB

[Killer Shrike]

So how would I apply multiple templates to a character? As KS mentions Race, Culture, and Profession.

As it is, it seems that I would only be able to add one template (the one I start off with).

TB
Your confusing Templates and Packages.

A Template could represent part of a Package, all of one Package, or a combination of multiple Packages in whole or in part.

So, do all the NCM mods in a single custom Template along with whatever else seems convenient, and preFab anything else as you prefer.

Personally I do a Custom Race template and then open a character and assign that template to them to mod their NCM, and then add whatever else specific abilities to that character and save the modified character with all Race abilities as well as alternate NCM as a template itself. Then I make a character from that new complete Template and add whatever else I want to it normally.

[lrojas]

even more confused now, how would i go about say to set my NCM for an elf as

CON 17
BODY 17
DEX 23

???

---------
forgive my obtusoness, i am adapting to a new system as fast as i can

[Teflon Billy]

Your confusing Templates and Packages.

A Template could represent part of a Package, all of one Package, or a combination of multiple Packages in whole or in part.

So, do all the NCM mods in a single custom Template along with whatever else seems convenient, and preFab anything else as you prefer.

Personally I do a Custom Race template and then open a character and assign that template to them to mod their NCM, and then add whatever else specific abilities to that character and save the modified character with all Race abilities as well as alternate NCM as a template itself. Then I make a character from that new complete Template and add whatever else I want to it normally.I wasn't confusing them, I just didn't know how the program expected me to apply multiple package deals to a single character. But I did use incorrect terminology, I'll have to work on that :D

TB --I sickened Archbishop Tutu

[Simon]

even more confused now, how would i go about say to set my NCM for an elf as

CON 17
BODY 17
DEX 23

???

---------
forgive my obtusoness, i am adapting to a new system as fast as i can
As that would be using your own (custom) rules, you create a custom template. This is covered in the documentation.

[Killer Shrike]

I provide a tool to create alternate NCM's on my website:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/RacePackageDeals/NCMExport/NCMExport.asp

Just follow the directions provided.

[Starwolf]

I provide a tool to create alternate NCM's on my website:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/RacePackageDeals/NCMExport/NCMExport.asp

Just follow the directions provided.

Hey Shrike does your applet create Version 2 templates yet....I tried it a while back and it produced version 1 templates that did wonky things when I tried to run them under version 2. Just being curious...

[zoobiedoo]

In my mind the question still remains, in Hero Designer v2.0 how does one apply more than one package to a character? It has been explained that prefabs and packages are not the same thing. That's clear. It has also been explained that packages can be represented with a combination of templates and prefabs. Ok, that's clear, too. But that doesn't make sense if one wants to "cleanly" apply more than one package to a character (and hence possibly more than one template).

There are messy ways that have been explained to apply more than one template. One is to combine two or more templates, either by creating a template that encompasses the other templates or creating a template that is derived from more than one template. But if a heroic campaign has a dozen racial packages, 30 cultural packages, and 50 professional packages... That's at least 18,000 "combo" templates.

Another messy way is to create a custom template for each character (which is currently how I do it). Each character is based on a specific template and then I save the character as a template and manually edit the xml of the template to have it "inherit" any number of other templates and then create a new character from that custom template. The main problem I have (besides hand editing the xml outside of HD) is that the template file path in the hdc file is hard-coded at some point so when I move my characters to my laptop, the custom template can't be found because the template folder on the laptop is on the c: drive instead of my desktop's d: drive. Another problem is that my template folder is now littered with character specific custom templates, and also if I want to move my character somewhere else, I now have to move at least two files instead of one.

It seems like the simplest answer would be to allow characters to be based on multiple templates. Dan says this is not really feasible, and he's the creator of HD so he should know. The fact that it's not feasible is disappointing considering how well "multiple inheritance" works in templates.

And this discussion leads to another question. Packages have been a ubiquitous element of the Hero System since its creation. About the only genre that doesn't routinely use packages is Champions. It has been explained that packages and prefabs are not the same. The purpose and function of prefabs have been explained many times. Fair enough. So the obvious question is: why is there no clear, easy-to-use interface for creating and using packages in HD? Possibly this issue was addressed on these forums when HD was being designed, I don't know.

In any case, this post was intended as feedback and may or may not be useful to anyone. I do think that Hero Designer is an excellent product and I think Dan is excellent about responding to members of this forum. :hail:

[Starwolf]

Belay my last post...I might have done something wrong the first time around. I just tried it again and it created a very nice V2 template. I bow to your superior intellect :hail:

[Simon]

And this discussion leads to another question. Packages have been a ubiquitous element of the Hero System since its creation. About the only genre that doesn't routinely use packages is Champions. It has been explained that packages and prefabs are not the same. The purpose and function of prefabs have been explained many times. Fair enough. So the obvious question is: why is there no clear, easy-to-use interface for creating and using packages in HD? Possibly this issue was addressed on these forums when HD was being designed, I don't know.
Because packages are not rules.

They are <em>suggested</em> abilities that characters of a particular race/profession/whatever should possess.

Think of them as a "starting point" for a character. When thought of in this way, you will find that HD does have "easy to use" functionality built in: "Save as Template"/"New Character from Template".

While you can conceptually apply multiple packages to a character, in reality this MUST be a manual process -- one in which you look at your "Elf Package" and your "Hunter Package" and decide that the Elf's DEX should win out over the Hunter's, but the Hunter's CON should win out over the Elf's....and the Hunter's +4 w/Stealth should win out over the Elf's +2 w/Stealth.

HD is designed to implement the rules of the Hero System. Packages are not rules. They are suggested abilities to take for a character of a given type. Go with that. Use the suggestions to your heart's content.

[zoobiedoo]

Because packages are not rules.

Neither is anything on the Background tab. And neither are templates and prefabs. Yet those things exist in Hero Designer.

Packages are a common element in Hero System campaigns whether they be represented with rules or no. Templates and prefabs, as they are implemented in HD, do not exist in the Hero System outside of HD.

Templates and prefabs are a convenience for HD users. Packages are a convenience for character creation. HD is largely for character creation.

There may be technical or design reasons for not implementing packages explicitly in HD, but saying that the sole reason packages do not exist in HD is because they are not represented in rules would be contradicting the existence of other features in HD. The question was why do packages not exist in HD? The answer was because they are not rules. Then the question becomes why are there Background fields in HD?

In other words, is it possible to implement packages in HD as a convenience for the user? Using templates to represent packages is a messy deal, as already noted, so is there a way to make using packages in HD less messy for the user?



They are <em>suggested</em> abilities that characters of a particular race/profession/whatever should possess.

This is true, and it would be very helpful to most users if packages could be cleanly "pre-packaged" in some way in Hero Designer (similar to the way prefabs are useful). Right now the ways of using pre-packaged packages are fairly messy.



While you can conceptually apply multiple packages to a character, in reality this MUST be a manual process -- one in which you look at your "Elf Package" and your "Hunter Package" and decide that the Elf's DEX should win out over the Hunter's, but the Hunter's CON should win out over the Elf's....and the Hunter's +4 w/Stealth should win out over the Elf's +2 w/Stealth.

I agree with you here, but there is a difference between having the program ask you, "Do you want to use the Elf package DEX bonus? or the Hunter package DEX bonus?" and having to edit the xml by hand. The former is much more "clean" than the latter and much less prone to error.

HD already has a great way to check for rule violations. And templates do a good job at selecting which things override "competing" things in other templates. Could a similar thing be implemented for applying packages to a character? Certainly I think there is a demand among users for such a feature, though maybe it would have to wait for HD 3.0 (assuming there will be one).

-----------

As a separate issue, would it be possible for Hero Designer to *not* save the full path of the hdr, hde, and hdt files within the hdc files? HD already implements default directories for those things, so it doesn't make sense that HD should have to save those full paths. As noted previously, having those full paths saved in the hdc files makes it difficult to use character files on computers that do not have the same drive and directory structures as the computer where the character was initially created. This is a problem regardless of any discussion about packages.

[Simon]

You asked a question, your question was answered. The issue is not open for discussion or debate.

The treatment of packages is not going to change in HD.

"Asking" about a conflict, while somewhat straightforward on Characteristics, requires VASTLY more logic when dealing with Abilities (do these two EBs conflict? How about these two Skills?). It is simply not workable.

HD is for character creation. This is true. It does a fantastic job at helping you with character creation. But it still requires you to do certain things on your own. You need to figure out what kind of character you want and you need to figure out what abilities to purchase for that character and how you want to build them. Packages are meant to help you determine some baseline abilities. As far as that goes, you are perfectly able to do that in HD using the "Save as Template"/"New Character from Template" functionality.

If you have 80,000 different combinations of packages that you want to choose from at any given time, then you've got your work cut out for you -- you're going to need to create all 80,000 templates. HD is not and will not do that for you.

Again, this is not open for debate. You asked why things were done the way they are, and that question has been answered.

[zoobiedoo]

The issue is not open for discussion or debate.

The treatment of packages is not going to change in HD.

That is clear and honest. Thank you.

Any comment on the way Hero Designer saves the full paths of hdt, hde, and hdr files? Or would it be more appropriate to start a separate thread for that question?

[Simon]

That is clear and honest. Thank you.

Any comment on the way Hero Designer saves the full paths of hdt, hde, and hdr files? Or would it be more appropriate to start a separate thread for that question?
I don't see why any comment is needed....of course it saves the full path -- that's where the files are located.

If you transfer the file to another system, HD will first look in the path specified. If it doesn't find the file there, then it will look in the default directories that you have specified under your app prefs for a file of the same name. It's about as flexible and "cross platform" as I can see making it.

[zoobiedoo]

If you transfer the file to another system, HD will first look in the path specified. If it doesn't find the file there, then it will look in the default directories that you have specified under your app prefs for a file of the same name. It's about as flexible and "cross platform" as I can see making it.

True. I should have been more clear with an example. Because I take advantage of the "Save as Template"/"New Character from Template" features, I often create a character specific template for each character. It would be nice to keep the hdt file in the same directory as the hdc file, and I don't keep my hdc files in the same directory as the default template directory.

So, if the hdt and hdc files for one character are in the same directory together (which is not the same directory as the default template directory), then when I move a character's hdt and hdc files to another computer with a different drive and directory structure, the full path to the hdt file is incorrect and the hdt file will not be found in the new system's default template directory.

So perhaps a better question would be: Can HD be made to use relative paths too? (ie. paths relative to the hdc file path) Or maybe there's some other solution?

[Simon]

If you're using the 'Save As Template' functionality, then you don't need to worry about the hdc file -- that's the actual character file, the character "starting point" is bundled into the hdt file (along with the campaign rules, if applicable).

Relative directories is a HORRIBLE idea, as it requires a directory structure to be mirrored across systems. Not good.

The way HD is doing things now is as flexible as they can get. If you send the hdt and hdc files to another system, all the user on that system needs to do is to put the hdt file into whatever directory they have defined (under their app prefs) as their default character template directory. They can then open the hdc character file and everything will work fine.

Or you can package your character and send the hdz package file to the user....then they don't have to worry about files and locations at all.

[zoobiedoo]

Yes, you are correct. Sorry, my brain is not working right this morning. Apparently I need more caffeine.

[Simon]

Yes, you are correct. Sorry, my brain is not working right this morning. Apparently I need more caffeine.
Caffeine is a wonderful, wonderful thing. I suggest maintaining a steady stream of it into your system throughout the day. An I.V. drip, while a bit cumbersome, works quite well.

[Killer Shrike]

Hey Shrike does your applet create Version 2 templates yet....I tried it a while back and it produced version 1 templates that did wonky things when I tried to run them under version 2. Just being curious...
Well, I wrote it after version 2 was released for version 2 so you are mistaken in that regard.

I havent had any problems with it personally, so if it's doing something odd on your install you should send me an email about it so I can investigate it.

[Killer Shrike]

Belay my last post...I might have done something wrong the first time around. I just tried it again and it created a very nice V2 template. I bow to your superior intellect :hail:
Well, so long as it's working now. If you get something strange as you use it please report it however and Ill bug fix it as necessary.

As far as intellect, aw shucks twernt nuthing :blush: