X-Men Continuity Question (shudder) concering Emma Frost.

[KA.]

I put this in Champions instead of Non-Gaming because I thought this was the right area to find people who might know the answer.
I have been playing X-Men Legends. (A video game for those who have missed the barrage of TV ads for it.)
In the game Emma Frost is, at least so far, a powerful telepath that is basically friendly, but not a member of the X-Men. She is helping them with a problem (no more details unless they are necessary, because I don't want to spoil the game).
Now the last time I read an issue of Uncanny X-men, which was, I admit, the late 80's, Emma Frost was the White Queen of the Hellfire Club.
Which means I keep expecting her to do something EVIL.
What is the current incarnation like?

KA.

[jackalope]

Which means I keep expecting her to do something EVIL.
What is the current incarnation like?

After the X-Men destroyed the Hellfire Club, she formed a school for mutant kids and she and her Hellions were a New Mutants enemy. Then, after mucho character growth (running the school brought out her nuturing side, and she grew as a result), she became the headmistress of Xavier's school after Xavier disappeared AGAIN.

Now she is a member of the X-Men, and is dating Scott Summers (Cyclops), and still the headmistress AFAIK, or possibly just a teacher. Charlie isn't in Astonishing X-Men, but he's alive in Mystique, so I don't know what's up with that.

Somewhere along the way she gained the ability to become as hard as a diamond, and I don't know what's up with that. But these days she's a mentalist/brick. SCARY.

[Korvar]

Now she is a member of the X-Men, and is dating Scott Summers (Cyclops)

What is it with that boy and telepaths?

[freakboy6117]

Korvar. Once you've had PSI others need not apply, (i.e. both Emma and jean had the ability to stimulate the pleasure centers of the human brain your not going to be satisfied with a normal girl after that)

Meanwhile to answer jackalopes question Charles has moved to genoshea top help rebuild after the sentinel attack he is joined by a freshly resurrected and saner version of magneto (how many times can one guy die) and a team of young mutants including Shola (The hugely powerful telekinetic genoshean exchange student from Mechanix the kitty pride mini series). And a reformed prime sentinel (coworker/love interest of Neal Shaara aka Thunderbird III formerly a member of X-treme Xmen)
I stopped buying it at that point

[Vondy]

Now she is a member of the X-Men, and is dating Scott Summers (Cyclops), and still the headmistress AFAIK, or possibly just a teacher. Charlie isn't in Astonishing X-Men, but he's alive in Mystique, so I don't know what's up with that.

Wait a minute. What happened to Jean? I though Scott and Jean were married...

[SKJAM!]

Wait a minute. What happened to Jean? I though Scott and Jean were married...

She died. Again. In one possible future, she does not come back for many decades.

[freakboy6117]

she turned into the phoenix after being lunched into the sun on asteroid M with logan and he gutted her to save her from a long painful death before walking out into the sun only she turned into pehonix and they broughty umm then she returned to earth to stop magneto destroying new york and she died again or ascended or something it all got kind of silly.

[JmOz]

A few small corrections on Emma:

The Hellions was actually a part of the HellFire Club's plans (The club is still around today, Inner Circle has changed but it is still there), as such she was still the white queen during the New Mutants days

Eventialy a bunch of sentinels killed most of her hellions (Empath lived IIRC)

She was devestated, Charles gave her the chance to redeam herself, and get over her guilt by when he changed the NY school into Xaviers school for Higher Education (Or some such) and the Mass Acadamy (where she use to teach) into The Xavier School for Gifted Youngsters, she was Co-Headperson with Banchee to a new class called Generation X

She is now Co-Headmistress of Gifted Youngsters, which is back at Xaviers mansion with Cyclops, who she is sleeping with. Jean is dead AGAIN.

[Vondy]

she turned into the phoenix after being lunched into the sun on asteroid M with logan and he gutted her to save her from a long painful death before walking out into the sun only she turned into pehonix and they broughty umm then she returned to earth to stop magneto destroying new york and she died again or ascended or something it all got kind of silly.
Okay, let me get this straight: the writers suck so bad they can't even rehash a storyline that has already been written without screwing it up. Is that it?

[Vondy]

Jean is dead AGAIN.
With a name like Phoenix and Jean's fanboy following...

[freakboy6117]

pretty much i still dont have any idea whastr going on since the restart

[jackalope]

So...does anybody know when/why/how she gained the diamond hard ability?

[Hugh Neilson]

With a name like Phoenix and Jean's fanboy following...

Actually, even the story pretty much said "Someday the Phoenix will doubtless rise again". The only real question is when, not if.

[JeffreyWKramer]

So...does anybody know when/why/how she gained the diamond hard ability?

For the past few years, Marvel has been playing around with the idea of "secondary mutations." Essentially, they boil down to screwing with characters, buffing up their power level or giving them whole new suites of abilities. The Beast has become less human-looking. Warren Worthington gained healing powers. Emma can turn into mobile diamond. Not all heroes have received such abilities, which means we might be able to look forward to newly-emerging mutant powers. Who knows? Maybe Nightcrawler will get flame breath, Cyclops will get a clue and Wolverine will get prehensile body hair in the next year.

[freakboy6117]

wolverines hair is already prehensile or at least retractable how else would he be able to put it into his mask or get it into that crazy style of his after having his whole body incinerated or soemthing

[Eyendasky80]

Okay, let me get this straight: the writers suck so bad they can't even rehash a storyline that has already been written without screwing it up. Is that it?

Most of this information is coming from Grant Morrison's run which was excellent. Taken out of context it does sound a little nuts, but if you had read it as it was published , it was great. Then they totally erased it and returned everything to the status quo with a few notable exceptions. That really made the whole thing stupid because the people who came in after Morrison and hit reset are retarded and couldn't think of a good way to do it. Except Joss Whedon's excuse for putting them back in spandex. I can believe that new management has new ideas of how a mutant team should be run without difficulty. I stopped reading the X-Men after Morrison left, I never was much of a fan but I loved Morrison's JLA so I picked his X-Men up.

[jackalope]

For the past few years, Marvel has been playing around with the idea of "secondary mutations."

That's kind of weird, and I don't like it. I haven't liked a single character they've introduced since Giant Size X-Men #1 (hmm..well, Gambit and Longshot were tolerable, but Bishop/Cable/Etc. all suck), and I don't like the tampering with character's powers.

Beast I can see, what with the whole Roxxon affair that made him blue and furry. But spontaneously gaining new powers is cheese. It just smacks of sloppy writing. "I can't figure out how Emma survives a fight, I know, I'll make her spontaneously gain the power to be invulnerable, even if there is no logical connection to her already existing powers."


Cyclops will get a clue...

:rofl:

[Supreme Serpent]

That's kind of weird, and I don't like it. I haven't liked a single character they've introduced since Giant Size X-Men #1 (hmm..well, Gambit and Longshot were tolerable, but Bishop/Cable/Etc. all suck), and I don't like the tampering with character's powers.


Agreed. (well, I didn't like Gambit either, and while Longshot is OK, he shouldn't have been an X-man) One of the things I liked about the X-men and Marvel mutants in general is the whole "1-power" thing. Colossus turns into steel - he doesn't also have the ability to talk to computers. Kitty phases - she doesn't also throw lightning bolts. Developing their existing power to higher levels, perform new tricks, use it in new ways, etc. was one of the cool X-men schticks. Cyke is incredibly good with his optic blasts. Kitty learns to walk on air, phase other people/things. Nightcrawler improves his ability to port others, etc.

There are some exceptions (Wolvie-healing+senses+artificial bones/claws, Magneto magnetics+limited psi) but overall I liked that.

[Hugh Neilson]

Beast I can see, what with the whole Roxxon affair that made him blue and furry. But spontaneously gaining new powers is cheese. It just smacks of sloppy writing. "I can't figure out how Emma survives a fight, I know, I'll make her spontaneously gain the power to be invulnerable, even if there is no logical connection to her already existing powers."

Actually, Beast wasn't part of the whole "secondary mutation" crowd, but was modified by Sage to prevent his death. [Apparently, she has a rarely used ability to "push" someone'e mutation to the ultimate extreme, which makes her the victim of "random secondary mutation" rather than Beast, so it doesn't improve my view of the concept, only remnoved Beast from the "ongoing mutation" concept when he's the most logical to be mutating on an ongoing basis.]

[Eyendasky80]

Was that Claremont, I'm amazed they pay that guy for this crap.

[Kristopher]

Some people like Claremont's work and hate Morrison's.

Some people like Morrison's work and hate Claremont's.

What gives?

[Eyendasky80]

I don't know. And to be honest, upon reflection I am doing the same thing as Von D-Man which is passing judgement on a creator based on second hand info taken out of context. I guess I'll have to go buy Excalibur before I get to bash the guy again.

[Battlestaff]

X-Men? Continuity? Do those two words even go together?

[Blue]

All I know about the recent Emma I know from the first 5 issues of Astonishin X-men.
She's co-headmaster/mistriss of the school with Scott while Charles is in Genosha. She is dating Scott, who I believe, had broken up with Jean before her demise (Correct me if I'm wrong there) I've not yet seen the "diamond" ability. She has a very entertaining rivalry going with Kitty. She's quite the B****. Even Scott sometimes wonders if he isn't being manipulated into this relationship by her mental abilities.

[JeffreyWKramer]

All I know about the recent Emma I know from the first 5 issues of Astonishin X-men.
She's co-headmaster/mistriss of the school with Scott while Charles is in Genosha. She is dating Scott, who I believe, had broken up with Jean before her demise (Correct me if I'm wrong there) I've not yet seen the "diamond" ability. She has a very entertaining rivalry going with Kitty. She's quite the B****. Even Scott sometimes wonders if he isn't being manipulated into this relationship by her mental abilities.

She's diamonded up at least once or twice in ASTONISHING, but it's subtle and she's not done much with it, you have to look for it. She appears translucent when she does this.

Scott and Emma were having an affair - the psychic equivalent of cybering, essentially - before Jean died. Jean caught them at it. In fact, she caught them while they were psychically going at it with Emma made up to look like Jean in the Dark Phoenix outfit.

It's pretty hard to have any respect for Cyclops these days.

[JeffreyWKramer]

That's kind of weird, and I don't like it. I haven't liked a single character they've introduced since Giant Size X-Men #1 (hmm..well, Gambit and Longshot were tolerable, but Bishop/Cable/Etc. all suck), and I don't like the tampering with character's powers.

I didn't like Longshot on the X-Men (he was fine in his miniseries), and I have always thought Gambit sucked big time. A goofy stereotype with dumb powers and a stupid outfit (a Cajun spy who wears a magenta leotard? Yeah, real inconspicuous there, gumbo). I don't mind Bishop, but I really think the last worthwhile characters added to the X-Rosters were Rogue and Dazzler. Dazz's own book sucked mostly, of course, but she was an interesting character during her tenures in the X-Men.

[ParitySoul]

X-men and X-clones are my beef. The whole Magneto, Kid, Magneto, Joseph thing made my head hurt. Now the psyco Magneto, sane Magneto....urrrrrrrrrrrRAAAAAA! *giberyfrothy*

[Blue]

She's diamonded up at least once or twice in ASTONISHING, but it's subtle and she's not done much with it, you have to look for it. She appears translucent when she does this.

Scott and Emma were having an affair - the psychic equivalent of cybering, essentially - before Jean died. Jean caught them at it. In fact, she caught them while they were psychically going at it with Emma made up to look like Jean in the Dark Phoenix outfit.

It's pretty hard to have any respect for Cyclops these days.
Yeh, I probably just didn't know what I was looking at, since I hadn't really heard about the ability before now.

Eeeyow! They were doing a dark phoenix fantasy? Thats just wrong. I mean, not that DP wasn't hot, with all that red hair blowing everywhere in exaggerated 80's blow-dried fashion, but you'd think writers would give Scott more dignity.

Any idea which writer I can blame for that little miscue? I'm big on placing blame ;)

[Eyendasky80]

Again, Morrison.

[Chuckg]

That's kind of weird, and I don't like it. I haven't liked a single character they've introduced since Giant Size X-Men #1 [snip]

Heretic! Kitty wasn't introduced until UNCANNY X-MEN #129! :)

[Blue]

Wow. I'd been hearing good things about Morrison too. Claremont may be contrived but at least his characters are in-character. And Austen... well, I'm not even going to talk about him.

If I could vote Whedon for president....

[Lightray]

All I know about the recent Emma I know from the first 5 issues of Astonishin X-men.
She's co-headmaster/mistriss of the school with Scott while Charles is in Genosha. She is dating Scott, who I believe, had broken up with Jean before her demise (Correct me if I'm wrong there) I've not yet seen the "diamond" ability. She has a very entertaining rivalry going with Kitty. She's quite the B****. Even Scott sometimes wonders if he isn't being manipulated into this relationship by her mental abilities.
1. Yep.
2. Jean had broken up with Scott, although he hadn't quite accepted it by the time she died, nor quite admitted that he'd really been having an affair with Emma.
3. The "diamond" mutation has become another ongoing continuity gaffe. Some writers remember that Emma's not supposed to be able to use (or even receive, maybe) telepathy while "diamonded up". Most writers forget that.
4. Emma has an entertaining rivalry going with every female she comes across. Except when Clairemont writes her, when she's just a general beeyotch.
5. See above.
6. I think that's one of the more subtle things Joss is doing -- We don't know if Scott is being controlled by Emma. Scott doesn't know, either. And he has to wonder if Jean was doing the same thing... And how about Prof. X, whose telepathic ethics have always been murky (albeit not so bad as Ultimate Prof. X).

[Eyendasky80]

Wow. I'd been hearing good things about Morrison too. Claremont may be contrived but at least his characters are in-character. And Austen... well, I'm not even going to talk about him.

If I could vote Whedon for president....

I thought Morrison was brilliant. But I'm not a fan of X-Men. I think everyone should read at least one TPB from Morrison's run. I'd recommend the first hardcover edition.

[Blue]

I probably won't go hardcover, but I will be in the comic store this afternoon, soooo...

[ChaosDrgn]

If you take a look at the characters it appears they're basing them off of the Ultimate X-Men book, which has Emma as a telepath and possible co-teacher at the school due to events in the last few storylines. If not a co-teacher a definite ally. They've alluded before that her and Charles used to work together and that she left due to ideas in how to teach the students and what they were setting them up for.

[Super Squirrel]

Charlie isn't in Astonishing X-Men, but he's alive in Mystique, so I don't know what's up with that.I think Mystique 20 is going to answer that question.

[Chuckg]

Xavier is also alive in the new EXCALIBUR reboot, which I have not read.

[Ghost who Walks]

Haven't read the X-Men since they went to Australia, for some reason or other. :stupid: Because of thatplot thread, my campaign has Ayers Rock generating an enormous field that takes away everyone's metahuman powers, that get anywhere near Australia. Of course no one knows Ayer's Rock is doing it...

This site appears to have a lot of info on it, if anyone is still interested in the thread's original topic :)
http://www.emmagracefrost.com

[Lord Mhoram]

Some people like Claremont's work and hate Morrison's.

Some people like Morrison's work and hate Claremont's.

What gives?

Morrison rebooted and changed everything. Sales dived because fans didn't want change, and while new readers were brought in, more left. So they undid the Morrison changes and Claremont was one of the ones who did it.

So fans of Claremont's old work like his new stuff that erased the "icky" that Morrison did.

Fans of the change hate Claremont (among others) for undoing the "cool" that Morrison did.

I haven't read and X title (aside from Exiles) since they went to austrailia in the 80s, so this is mostly gleaned from listening to arguments back and forth, and some analytical web articles.

[Lord Mhoram]

And Austen... well, I'm not even going to talk about him.


Yeah. Never read his X work but after his run on Avengers I can agree. It makes the whole Disassembled fiasco look great.

[Eyendasky80]

Whether or not old fans were happy with Morrison, sales increased and Marvel was satisfied. The only reason his run ended was because he signed an exclusive contract with DC. I think Joss Whedon wanted them back in costume and Joe Quesada agreed. Bill Jemas just left, too, so maybe he was the supported of the more "realistic" X-Men. Maybe "modern" would be a better word. So, as I was saying, then Quesada came up with the Reloaded thing. Maybe. Anyone who knows what happened for sure, feel free to set me straight.

[Lord Mhoram]

Quite possible. I mostly got my information from a couple of web articles. We all know how accurate those can be. :rolleyes:

[Hugh Neilson]

Bill Jemas just left, too, so maybe he was the supported of the more "realistic" X-Men. Maybe "modern" would be a better word.

The term I would use is "movie-oriented". Seems to me the switch from costumes to leathers was remarkably co-incident with the first film succeeding, and we got lots of stories shifting characters to look more like their movie counterparts.

[RDU Neil]

The term I would use is "movie-oriented". Seems to me the switch from costumes to leathers was remarkably co-incident with the first film succeeding, and we got lots of stories shifting characters to look more like their movie counterparts.

Rant On! :mad:

Yeah... they did the same with Supes at DC. After Smallville became big, they just re-wrote Supes' history so it looks more like that on the TV show. It's crap. Continuity is everything. Effective use of continuity is the only thing that makes comics a viable literary form (superhero comics I'm talking here, not the medium of comics). The constant revision, ignoring or erasing what came before, not letting characters grow and change... all that just makes the genre utterly disposable... i'ts 2.95 for a brightly colored toilet paper. Why should I read a comic, get into the world and the characters, when the next writer/editor will come along and just toss it all out the window?

We really havn't seen solid continuity since the early '80s of Marvel. Marvel from '62 through, say the start of Jim Shooter's time as EIC and the abysmal Secret Wars, was solid, rich, powerful as a storytelling universe. At best we now have the Ultimate line, which is solid in it's continuity... I like it's gritty/modern take on the heroes... but hasn't been around long enough to really create it's own history. Too much is still emotional resonance from the iconic character histories.)

It's why I game.... so I can create a decades long history that is solid and detailed and documented to provide a rich backdrop (created through 17 years of play) for new characters and players. It is the way I wish comics were.

(Joss' X-Men, to some extent, realizes this, and reading it is like ignoring most of everything since around issue 175 (when the real story of the New X-Men should have ended in literary form) and picking up years later. It feels true to the original, but allowing for change over time. The characters have grown up, and act accordingly.

Rant Off... :straight:

[Eyendasky80]

You see, I think it has less to do with the movies than the absolute abyssmal performance of comics as entertainment media. Comics wouldn't even exist if not for the money made from licensing the characters. At least, mainstream comics wouldn't exist. So everyday at Marvel they're like "Oh my god, we suck! What can we do?" and they're feeling around in the dark for a way to make comics popular again. Some would say it's over and they should just cater to the community of fans who are still loyal to them. But what about the success of manga? Or, as mentioned before, their movies/tv? So the characters are a viable property, graphic story-telling is a viable medium. WHAT ARE WE DOING WRONG? They've pretty much decided that continuity is a hurdle when it comes to attracting new readers. So, it gets tossed to the side occasionally. Thems the breaks. And they really try to appease the old time fans and give them books where they can find stories that are recognizable as part of the same saga began in the sixties (or forties). They still aren't making any significant changes to the industry so both approaches seem wrong to me, in a business sense. But I enjoy comics, so I don't really care if they make lots of money, as long as they make lots of comics.

[FenrisUlf]

Good Lord, what you've all said here makes the WWE look consistent next to the X-Men. Sounds like they've got better writers too.

[Vondy]

I don't know. And to be honest, upon reflection I am doing the same thing as Von D-Man which is passing judgement on a creator based on second hand info taken out of context. I guess I'll have to go buy Excalibur before I get to bash the guy again.
Well, to be honest, I was just expressing an opinion I formed years ago when I quit reading the x-men altogether because of "trends" they kept falling into, though I would argue most of them are acutally "traps."

[sinanju]

You see, I think it has less to do with the movies than the absolute abyssmal performance of comics as entertainment media. Comics wouldn't even exist if not for the money made from licensing the characters. At least, mainstream comics wouldn't exist. So everyday at Marvel they're like "Oh my god, we suck! What can we do?" and they're feeling around in the dark for a way to make comics popular again. Some would say it's over and they should just cater to the community of fans who are still loyal to them. But what about the success of manga? Or, as mentioned before, their movies/tv?

I have a theory about this. My theory: comics have waned over the years as other forms of entertainment have proven able to give us what comics used to provide. Comics once included westerns, detective comics, war comics, soaps, horror, etc. When comics were at their peak of readership, the main competition was radio and early movies. Then black & white tv. Then color tv. And movies, of course. With increasingly convincing special effects. And comic readership has slowly declined over the years as other media proved effective for telling many of the stories the comics used to tell.

Westerns vanished, as did soaps and romace comics, and war comics. Some of these are still seen occasionally, but for the most part, we can see the same stories done in live action with SFX just as good as any in the comics on tv or in the movies.

The last bastion of comic superiority was superheroes--for a very long time live action superheroes sucked like a whore behind on her rent. The comics could still show you things that neither tv nor movies could equal. That's changing, though comics can still show you these marvels on a monthly basis and tv and movies can't. Yet.

So if the comics people are trying to find a way to get back to the glory days of yesteryear, I think they're screwed. It's over. The fat lady has sung--so far as recapturing past glories. They _can_ still be successful, but only if they reinvent themselves to give readers something they can't get elsewhere.

[RDU Neil]

I have a theory about this. My theory: comics have waned over the years as other forms of entertainment have proven able to give us what comics used to provide. Comics once included westerns, detective comics, war comics, soaps, horror, etc. When comics were at their peak of readership, the main competition was radio and early movies. Then black & white tv. Then color tv. And movies, of course. With increasingly convincing special effects. And comic readership has slowly declined over the years as other media proved effective for telling many of the stories the comics used to tell.

Westerns vanished, as did soaps and romace comics, and war comics. Some of these are still seen occasionally, but for the most part, we can see the same stories done in live action with SFX just as good as any in the comics on tv or in the movies.

The last bastion of comic superiority was superheroes--for a very long time live action superheroes sucked like a whore behind on her rent. The comics could still show you things that neither tv nor movies could equal. That's changing, though comics can still show you these marvels on a monthly basis and tv and movies can't. Yet.

So if the comics people are trying to find a way to get back to the glory days of yesteryear, I think they're screwed. It's over. The fat lady has sung--so far as recapturing past glories. They _can_ still be successful, but only if they reinvent themselves to give readers something they can't get elsewhere.

I think there is some truth to this... especially the last bit. "Give them something they can't get elsewhere." To that end, it ties back in to my argument. Comics as individual enities (and I'm talking superhero style comics here) don't really mean much. No one issue or story arc truly stands on its own. Even Watchmen is only amazing if you are steeped in superhero iconography, have knowledge of the inside references, and intimacy with the conventions being deconstructed. To a non-comic reader without these things, Watchmen is kind of "huh?"


So...Rant back on... what can comics do that other mediums can't... well... to this end I say that their "serial nature" has real potential... IF IT MATURES! TV now rules the "status quo serial" concept... where every episode ends with the status quo being reinstated. No long term change, just reassuring "sameness" every week.

But... look at the cutting edge stuff that is making waves now. "24", The Sopranos, The Wire, Six Feet Under, now Lost. These are shows that require you to follow along... don't pander to the people who want the same thing every week... allow characters to change and mature and be affected by the events going on (this is called DRAMA!) and have a tight, powerful theme/story to tell. Episodic stuff is over. You have to watch the series to get it all, and f*** you if you don't.

This is where comics can go. Yeah... maybe 20 years of continuity might be too much (but I think there is a place for it) but you should be able to expect your readers to read 12 issues to get a beginning, middle and end for a story. Sleeper, by Brubaker, is a perfect example of this. 12 issues of wonderful dialogue, dense plot, great character, kick ass action... but you better read all 12 to get the story... then stop... then come back with Sleeper Season Two, and do it again. Each season works on it's own, but does reference previous works for depth. The serial nature of "weekly adventures" is great... but there needs to be change and growth and development over time... not a constant status quo.

The point is, you need to provide mature storytelling. By this I don't mean it has to have violence and sex... but that the stories have to involve plot structures and literary metaphor and rich characterization and internal consistency... primarily they need to have "beginnings" "Middles" and "ends."

To me, the open ended series that just keeps chugging along is way past dead. Look at all the attempts to reboot series like The Avengers, etc. All the characters that just "go on" even when there is no good stories worth telling with them anymore. This has to stop.

This is especially true of series that don't even pretend to have endings. While I really tried to enjoy the CrossGen lines before they folded, their storytelilng model of "not much happens in each comic, and there is no clear resolution to anything in sight" was a major mistake. That soap opera model is as dead as the episodic Star Trek style story. The open ended events of a fictional characters lives is not true story. Characters are actually the vehicle for a story to be told, not the reason for a comic to be published. In many cases with comics it is clear that there are no stories in mind, they are just churning out "stuff that happens using this character everyone knows." This is actually a very infantile level of communication. It's all about reinforcement and repitition and comfortable recognition. It is how young children learn... it is not what makes for true, literary story telling. Comics need to stop this... this pandering to the classic comic geek who wants his Superman to always be the way he remembers from when he was nine. THAT is killing the superhero concept more than anything.

What can a comic do that other mediums can't? Provide a rich universe of deep stories that are literate and dramatic and yet still tell action packed narratives in a weekly, bi-weekly, montly medium that is uniquely American (in origins.) This requires different marketing, different editors, and the development of actual writers... not hacks that just churn out scripts to fill a series schedule, and artists who are collaborative not prima-donnas, and who are talented at visual story telling, not just stylists.

Not that such will ever happen... but I can dream. :tonguewav

Rant off.

[Mutant for Hire]

So if the comics people are trying to find a way to get back to the glory days of yesteryear, I think they're screwed. It's over. The fat lady has sung--so far as recapturing past glories. They _can_ still be successful, but only if they reinvent themselves to give readers something they can't get elsewhere.
The question is, where do you think the manga boom in America falls into this category?

My own feeling is that a lot of the fundamental underpinnings of superhero comics, their unwillingness to let title characters age or change in any way is ultimately part of their fundamental doom. The whole concept of a shared universe with a single continuity is ultimately a flawed one. Manga authors are not tied down in that fashion. They create a successful set of characters, they do a long and prosperous run and then they end it. They might go back to it someday, but they'd be just as likely to set up a new continuity and explore some different ideas.

[Eyendasky80]

That's what I would say, too. More self contained stories. Instead of, what is it? three or four ongoing X books? Why not as many mini-series as stories worth being told?

[Blue]

What can comics offer that other mediums cannot? Good question. All I can think of... A relatively inexpensive means of stimulating the imagination. Okay, they aren't the $0.25 books of my childhood, but they're less expensive than a novel, DVD, or movie ticket. An inexpensive media for people to break out as creative talent. At comic con I met two guys who were working out of their apartment to publish a comic. While daunting, that's still far less expensive than directing a decent film and trying to hook up with a distributor. So what you can buy with underground books are new artistic voices. Nostalgia. Let's face it; that's the number one selling point of comics: To give us adults (far and away the biggest buyers of comics) the ability to have a slice of our youth. Unfortunately, creators dump out on the nostalgia aspect and try to modernize everything to get an audience.
I don't even know how I'd market a comic these days. Maybe give away the first issue at movie theaters with a similarly themed movie. "Come see Tomb Raider 3 and get a free copy of Femme Force" or somesuch. (That would be the "big breasted heroine" theme, I guess)

But another aspect of what comics suffer from: The Geek Factor.

That's right, I'm including myself in this. Comics aren't "cool". DVD's, Movies, etc. are mainstream media while comic books are the perview of pre-teens and adult geeks. If they can find a way to upset this common perception they'll at lest get people looking.

[RobCRogers]

We really havn't seen solid continuity since the early '80s of Marvel.
You know, the best continuity I've ever seen out of a comic book company was from Valiant (the first few years, at least). It was tighter than tight; they kept careful track of character crossovers, established facts, etc. They kept a detailed timeline/calendar. They knew what on what date certain main characters would die and how. And (and this was a favorite bit of mine), they kept a tight rein on their universe. For example, there were only a couple of alien races who impacted Earth, there were only a few origins of superpowers, etc. It had its flaws, sure, but continuity wasn't one of them. I still miss those comics...

[RDU Neil]

You know, the best continuity I've ever seen out of a comic book company was from Valiant (the first few years, at least). It was tighter than tight; they kept careful track of character crossovers, established facts, etc. They kept a detailed timeline/calendar. They knew what on what date certain main characters would die and how. And (and this was a favorite bit of mine), they kept a tight rein on their universe. For example, there were only a couple of alien races who impacted Earth, there were only a few origins of superpowers, etc. It had its flaws, sure, but continuity wasn't one of them. I still miss those comics...

I did enjoy those... the problem was, they were BORING AS HELL after awhile. Yeah, they kept a tight, internally consistent universe... but damn if I was going to read yet another issue where they kil a bunch of those green blooded spider aliens. The problem here was no good villains, rather bland characters, and the art was too "retro plain." Ex: Harbinger was a great concept for a comic. Young powered kids running from corporation trying to use them as a commodity. The villain, Harrada, was cool... but can you even remember one name, one power of the supposed "main characters?"

X-O... Conan in a power suit... I kill more bug aliens.
Magnus... ssssnnooorreee
Rai... potential, but caught the Magnus sleeping disease

only the Eternal Warrior concept... and Archer & Armstrong in particular, were memorable... and the Eternal Warrior was essentially boring as dirt in the execution.

Some of the best they put out were the Turok specials after the young guy took over the role. Funny, but dramatic at the same time.

Oh yeah... and their version of Power Pack... The Trouble-Shooters, was decent... but again, none of the characters had "star power." Everything was basically competent, but nothing stellar.

[RobCRogers]

I did enjoy those... the problem was, they were BORING AS HELL after awhile. Yeah, they kept a tight, internally consistent universe... but damn if I was going to read yet another issue where they kil a bunch of those green blooded spider aliens. The problem here was no good villains, rather bland characters, and the art was too "retro plain."
I agree on some points and not on others. Some of the dialogue was wretched and the books had slow points, but I found them engaging overall, with some really excellent bits. They experimented with a "house style" of art that had mixed success. I liked the fact that the art consistently told a clear story. I disliked the lack of energy and some of the artists' work. It's hard to complain about Barry Windsor Smith, though. I thought some of the villains were great. Harada, who you mention below, was particularly stand-out, but Master Darque was another good one, and so was the Immortal Enemy, and I liked the spider aliens quite a bit. Doctor Silk was cool, too, as I recall. In general, the books did need a little bit of extra pep in some places.


Ex: Harbinger was a great concept for a comic. Young powered kids running from corporation trying to use them as a commodity. The villain, Harrada, was cool... but can you even remember one name, one power of the supposed "main characters?"
Yes, I can. I'll agree, though, that the title lacked something. But I liked the fact that the comics were willing to change. After a while, the storyline changed from the "renegade" kids to a group of students working for the corporation, unaware of its problems (it included a mind-wiped member of the original team). Interesting stuff.


X-O... Conan in a power suit... I kill more bug aliens.
He fairly quickly grew beyond that. The issues where he was the dumb barbarian got old, but the cannier and more educated he got, the more interesting that title became. The biomechanical aspects of the X-O armor were very interesting.


Magnus... ssssnnooorreee
I can't really argue with you there. It got more interesting in the later issues, first where it focused on his son, then later when Keith Giffen had an interesting run on the title.


Rai... potential, but caught the Magnus sleeping disease
It had its ups and downs (the main character was killed off and replaced twice, which I admired), but had some neat concepts. Again, the later issues (with the third main Rai character) were among the most interesting.


only the Eternal Warrior concept... and Archer & Armstrong in particular, were memorable... and the Eternal Warrior was essentially boring as dirt in the execution.
I'll definitely disagree with you there. Lots of other concepts/characters had merit: Bloodshot, Doctor Mirage, some of the Shadowman stuff, H.A.R.D. Corps--some good stuff. And Eternal Warrior was hit or miss. Some issues were boring, but some were great. Archer & Armstrong had some really great moments, at least until one writer in particular (Mike Baron, if I recall) took over and didn't really understand the essential needs of the characters.


Some of the best they put out were the Turok specials after the young guy took over the role. Funny, but dramatic at the same time.
Those were part of the Acclaim reboot of the titles. They were very hit and miss, and continuity went down the toilet, including their treatment of alien races. But yeah, those Turok specials were terrific. They also had some great Shadowman stuff in there.


Oh yeah... and their version of Power Pack... The Trouble-Shooters, was decent... but again, none of the characters had "star power." Everything was basically competent, but nothing stellar.
I think you mean the Troublemakers, which I think was less a version of Power Pack than it was a new take on Harbinger. I agree that the book wasn't very memorable. But that was part of the post-reboot fiasco.

[CrosshairCollie]

Back on-topic ...

Maybe I have the wrong game, but isn't X-Men Legends set in the so-called 'Ultimate' line, which is not supposed to be the real Marvel continuity *anyway*?

[Stone]

I stopped reading the X-titles in the early 90's. The quality of the stories had drastically fallen off in my opinion. I did try a couple times to get back into them, but was disappointed each time. I have never been a Wolverine fan and since he became such a major character could be a factor in my dislike in the stories. However I pretty much stopped reading all titles in the 90's. I have yet to find a consistant writing that I enjoy. I don't know if its due to me getting older (ugh!) and cynical or the writing just getting worse.

[Kristopher]

The latest incarnation of The New Mutants was, IMO, very good, but has started a downward trend since the switch to "Academy X" and the return of the spandex.

Runaways, on the other hand, has been absolutely fantastic, and the artwork is wonderful. I just hope they bring the series back soon.

[Mutant for Hire]

The more I hear this discussion on the X-Men, the less that I actually want to go and pick up a comic book.

*clings to his late 80's X-Men and New Mutants possessively*

[Kristopher]

The more I hear this discussion on the X-Men, the less that I actually want to go and pick up a comic book.

*clings to his late 80's X-Men and New Mutants possessively*

I'd suggest picking up most of the latest New Mutants run I mentioned, and the entire Runaways series to date.

[Lightray]

Morrison rebooted and changed everything. Sales dived because fans didn't want change, and while new readers were brought in, more left. So they undid the Morrison changes and Claremont was one of the ones who did it.
My impression was that Morrison has a habit of wrecking his playground when he leaves it -- when he goes home, he takes all his toys with him. His ending to New X-Men pretty much removed any possibility of continuing the story lines he'd developed.

Magneto/Xorn was dead. Phoenix was dead (again). X-Corp was mostly wrecked. Manhattan was wrecked. Most of the students he'd built up (excepting some of the Cuckoos) were dead or imprisoned. etc.

So they were pretty much forced into a re-reboot after Morrison left. That their re-reboot undid some of Morrison's changes is not too surprising (e.g., Magneto shows up again in Excalibur). I'm actually more surprised that they've been undoing some of those changes to keep using some of the toys that Morrison tried to wreck (e.g., Xorn showing up again).

[Enforcer84]

My impression was that Morrison has a habit of wrecking his playground when he leaves it -- when he goes home, he takes all his toys with him. His ending to New X-Men pretty much removed any possibility of continuing the story lines he'd developed.

Magneto/Xorn was dead. Phoenix was dead (again). X-Corp was mostly wrecked. Manhattan was wrecked. Most of the students he'd built up (excepting some of the Cuckoos) were dead or imprisoned. etc.

So they were pretty much forced into a re-reboot after Morrison left. That their re-reboot undid some of Morrison's changes is not too surprising (e.g., Magneto shows up again in Excalibur). I'm actually more surprised that they've been undoing some of those changes to keep using some of the toys that Morrison tried to wreck (e.g., Xorn showing up again).
He sounds like a bitter, spiteful, child. Isn't he one of the more popular writers though?

[Lightray]

From the discussion at Favorite Local Gaming Store, it sounds like there's disagreement over whether Morrison simply can't stand other writers using his toys, or whether Morrison helpfully clears the way for them to tell their own stories.

FLGS comic guys are normally pretty reliable, but as I haven't read much Morrison you might want to take all this with a helping of salt...

[lemming]

Heretic! Kitty wasn't introduced until UNCANNY X-MEN #129! :)
Eh, the character was fine, but her name always makes me think of cat food.

[KA.]

Eh, the character was fine, but her name always makes me think of cat food.

Almost fell out of my chair laughing at this.
It had never occurred to me, even after all these years.
Rep for you!

KA.

[bobrunnicles]

Funnily enough some of the best recent stuff has been written by guys with a background in episodic TV; J.Michael Straczynski's run on Amazing Spiderman and Supreme Power has been pretty cool, Joss Whedon's Astounding X-Men is a great read - and both of these guys' shows (Babylon 5 and Buffy/Angel) were known for having season-long plotlines; no status quos here at the end of each episode.

[RDU Neil]

Funnily enough some of the best recent stuff has been written by guys with a background in episodic TV; J.Michael Straczynski's run on Amazing Spiderman and Supreme Power has been pretty cool, Joss Whedon's Astounding X-Men is a great read - and both of these guys' shows (Babylon 5 and Buffy/Angel) were known for having season-long plotlines; no status quos here at the end of each episode.

Uhm... maybe we are just speaking around each other... but I'd never call Buffy or B5 "episodic." Star Trek was episodic. One show was complete, rarely effected any lasting change, always status quo. Both Straczynski and Whedon created living, breathing "worlds" that developed and changed as did the characters in them. Yes, there were technically "episodes" every week, but they built on each other, more like chapters in a large novel series, rather than episodes of TV.

I think we are saying the same thing, but not using the word "episodic" in the same way.

[bobrunnicles]

Uhm... maybe we are just speaking around each other... but I'd never call Buffy or B5 "episodic." Star Trek was episodic. One show was complete, rarely effected any lasting change, always status quo. Both Straczynski and Whedon created living, breathing "worlds" that developed and changed as did the characters in them. Yes, there were technically "episodes" every week, but they built on each other, more like chapters in a large novel series, rather than episodes of TV.

I think we are saying the same thing, but not using the word "episodic" in the same way.

Actually, I think we are, and in the same way :)

Earlier on there was a comment that for a while comic books were almost becoming episodic in nature, with the status quo being returned to at the end of each story arc as in Star Trek, where stories have no end but just keep on chugging, month after month - I was pointing to JMS and Whedon as examples of folks who's TV shows DID break the mold and where the stories did have character progression and definite story arcs with beginnings, middles and ends.

[Eyendasky80]

From the discussion at Favorite Local Gaming Store, it sounds like there's disagreement over whether Morrison simply can't stand other writers using his toys, or whether Morrison helpfully clears the way for them to tell their own stories.

FLGS comic guys are normally pretty reliable, but as I haven't read much Morrison you might want to take all this with a helping of salt...

I believe Morrison himself considers it clearing the way for the next writer. I can't remember if it was a direct quote or a paraphrase, but one way or another I got the impression this is what Morrison considers what he is doing.

I prefer a definative end to a creator's run and nothing is permanent anyway so if something happens that isn't well received they just say it didn't happen.