A question about game systems

[Spence]

I have a real question about two games systems. I am not trying to start a X vs Y thread. A while ago an acquaintance lent me a copy of WW's pulp adventure RPG. I didn't actually get the chance to completely read it before I needed to return it. But it struck me that its basic mechanics, roll successes, dice pools, fate(?) points were strikingly similar to Shadowrun's roll successes, dice pools and karma points. From a glance it looks like there are few differences. I am familier with SR, and have run it in the past. Beyond the one read I know nothing about WW's system. I'll honest that the main reason I never really looked at WOD is the campaign concepts. Vampires and Werewolves never interested me as a character and the time I wanted to try Mage the rest of my gaming circle was uninterested so I didn't bother to invest. But I have been thinking about it lately and got curious.

[John Desmarais]

I have a real question about two games systems. I am not trying to start a X vs Y thread. A while ago an acquaintance lent me a copy of WW's pulp adventure RPG. I didn't actually get the chance to completely read it before I needed to return it. But it struck me that its basic mechanics, roll successes, dice pools, fate(?) points were strikingly similar to Shadowrun's roll successes, dice pools and karma points. From a glance it looks like there are few differences. I am familier with SR, and have run it in the past. Beyond the one read I know nothing about WW's system. I'll honest that the main reason I never really looked at WOD is the campaign concepts. Vampires and Werewolves never interested me as a character and the time I wanted to try Mage the rest of my gaming circle was uninterested so I didn't bother to invest. But I have been thinking about it lately and got curious.

I can't really compare it to Shadowrun (as I've never played SR) but the game system basically another variation on WW's Storyteller system. Not my favorite system but it is playable and fairly easy to learn. If anything was ever going to pull me back into using Storyteller it would have been Pulp Adventure - lots of neat background stuff in there (of course, it was also very easily stolen for use in a Hero System game). You are correct in it being a dice poll system - dots equal dice, roll your fist full of d10s, count successes.

[Jhamin]

While both systems use dice pools, they could not be more different in their application.

-Shadowrun has lots of rules on how x successes = y effect and there were lots of nitty gritty rules about damage levels, fatigue, lifestyle costs, and the cost of powers vs. character types.

-Adventure! (dont' forget the "!") is a varient of the WOD standard dice system, albeit a later more refined varient. WOD as a rule tends to either say that you succeeded or you didn't. They abstract almost everything else. If you want to shoot someone, you need one success, to shoot them badly you need several, to shoot them badly while swinging from a vine you need even more. How many? GM call.

They both have their merits.
Adventure! is great if you want a style over substance type of game where a lone hero can punch out 4 guys in one swing and doesn't stop the game figureing out the flanking adjustments. (cause there aren't any)
Shadowrun is great if you want characters debating the relative merits of hip-shots vs. multiple opponents or the bonus dice you get for spending actions to carefully aim under these lighting conditions. All while watching their fatigue levels and dodge pools.

And lest anyone misread what I said above, I'm not saying one is better than the other.
Sometimes you want to roll some dice and have baddies fall over. So play Adventure!
Sometimes you want different guns to have different ballistic qualities vs. hard and soft targets. So play Shadowrun.

[StGrimblefig]

As I remember it, SR used d6s, and allowed re-roll of 6s to get more successes, which the Storyteller System (StS) does not allow (unless the "new WoD" rules changed that).

Of course, StS emphasizes "angsty cooperative storytelling" over "rules," so it would tend to give more leeway to the Storyteller (aka GM) to determine the exact results.

The original SR system had, IIRC, a set amount of damage per attack, which could be increased for each multiple of a threshold of successes that were achieved. They dumped that with the first revision, saying it made combat too cumbersome.

[arcady]

WW's system was originally authored in part by one of the authors of the original edition of Shadowrun.

They share the same core mechanic (dice pools) because at the time (88 or 89 for Shadowrun, 91 for Vampire) that author believed that was -THE- wave of the future in game design.

Final implimentation differs greatly, but it was a little closer then than it is now.

A lot of people in my area actually thought White Wolf had ripped off FASA's game engine until we read the credits page, at which point we began to wonder if game mechanics can be copyrighted/patented and whether or not that author had a legal right to do what he did. From what I understand, the basic number play can't, but an overall 'this is how we do it' can - such as WotC patenting the idea of a CCG (all CCG's on the market anywhere that recognizes international patent law have to work out a license with WotC).

If Gygax had been on the ball in 74 (73?), he might have managed a patent of RPGs...

Apparently however, the similarity in these two games is not in the right angle for that, or FASA had weak legal support or interest at the time - unless an agreement exists that we are all unaware of.

[Spence]

Thanks,

That explains many things that were bothering me.

I can sleep well tonight :winkgrin:


WW's system was originally authored in part by one of the authors of the original edition of Shadowrun.

They share the same core mechanic (dice pools) because at the time (88 or 89 for Shadowrun, 91 for Vampire) that author believed that was -THE- wave of the future in game design.

Final implimentation differs greatly, but it was a little closer then than it is now.

A lot of people in my area actually thought White Wolf had ripped off FASA's game engine until we read the credits page, at which point we began to wonder if game mechanics can be copyrighted/patented and whether or not that author had a legal right to do what he did. From what I understand, the basic number play can't, but an overall 'this is how we do it' can - such as WotC patenting the idea of a CCG (all CCG's on the market anywhere that recognizes international patent law have to work out a license with WotC).

If Gygax had been on the ball in 74 (73?), he might have managed a patent of RPGs...

Apparently however, the similarity in these two games is not in the right angle for that, or FASA had weak legal support or interest at the time - unless an agreement exists that we are all unaware of.