Weird (Minor) glitch

[JmOz]

Character has a Str of 13

Has Str +12; OIF, Does not figure

Total Str 25

Program is only showing 4" of Leaping (Shuold be 5")

I figure it has something to do with the partial bought Str

[Simon]

It should not be 5.

Each increment/purchase of STR is subject to rounding rules. Individually. They are summed <b>after</b> rounding.

HD's value is correct.

[JmOz]

What is that based on? A ruling from the FAQ I have missed or the book? The only thing I know is the chart on page 21 that says Str 25 is 5" of leaping

[Simon]

STR 25 is 5" of Leaping, true. But STR 12 is 2" of Leaping and STR 13 is 2 1/2" of Leaping. Together, they provide 4 1/2" of Leaping, which is what HD shows.

This is based on very detailed convesations with Steve about rounding rules and how multiple purchases round in terms of Figured Characteristics.

[JmOz]

The problem is Leaping is an aquired feature of STR and not a figured Characteristic, from what you are saying someone like above should only be able to lift about 280 kg, and do 4 1/2 dice of damage, instead of the normal Str 25 features (800 Kg lift and 5d6 damage)

[Simon]

It doesn't matter. The rounding rules remain the same.

Each purchase is rounded separately. It doesn't matter if you're rounding the cost, the contribution to a Figured Characteristic, or the contribution to something like Leaping. Each purchase is rounded on its own, separately from all others.

This was discussed in great detail with Steve and is exactly according to the rules of the HERO System.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by dsimon
It doesn't matter. The rounding rules remain the same.

Each purchase is rounded separately. It doesn't matter if you're rounding the cost, the contribution to a Figured Characteristic, or the contribution to something like Leaping. Each purchase is rounded on its own, separately from all others.

This was discussed in great detail with Steve and is exactly according to the rules of the HERO System.
The problem Dan is that the character has a 25 STR, and thus should be able to leap as far as any other character with a 25 STR.

If I buy a 20 STR character the following: +8 STR 2x END, +8 STR 3x END, +8 STR 4x END, +8 STR 5x END, +8 STR 6x END, the character should still have a 60 STR, and still be able to leap 12 full inches just like any other 60 STR character. The fact that the character uses more END or requres a Strength Harness should not be a factor.

[Simon]

No. He. Should. Not.

Not if you're going to be playing by the rules of the HERO System.

Steve and I went over this many, many times. We went through this exact case.

Rounding rules dictate that you round at each calculation.

Each purchase of STR is it's own calculation. Each purchase of STR is rounded separately.

Period.

[Simon]

To be even more clear;

The character does not have a 25 STR. He has a _total_ of 25 STR. What he has is 12 STR + 13 STR. This is very different (rounding-wise) from a 25 STR.

[Talon]

If you don't agree with Dan on this one, the person to talk to is Steve. This was gone through extensive during the creation of Hero Designer -- Dan's just implementing the spec he was given.

(Personally, I think several issues like this could be revisited, but I'd rather get the cost of STR doubled first. ;))

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
If you don't agree with Dan on this one, the person to talk to is Steve. This was gone through extensive during the creation of Hero Designer -- Dan's just implementing the spec he was given.
Already posted to the Questions Forum.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Monolith
Already posted to the Questions Forum.

OK...even though Steve answered your question with the same answer he had given me during the testing, he and I talked about it a fair bit afterwards. There <b>are</b> discrepancies in the rounding rules as they currently stand. As JmOz pointed out, the damage (and lifting capacity, etc) from STR are not rounded incrementally with each purchase; they are totaled together and then rounded once.

However, other attributes are rounded incrementally. Figured Characteristics, END usage on STR, etc. These items <i>have</i> to be calculated incrementally, since individual modifiers on the purchases can affect the numbers (reduced END, increased END, does not affect figured, etc).

So, the question became whether Leaping more closely resembles HTH Damage in its calculation or whether it is more akin to the END usage on STR in its calculation.

Steve has been pondering this for a while now (ever since the question was raised and we talked). He's decided to change the way Leaping functions and make it round once, like the damage for STR does.

The idea is to simplify the rounding rules, which can now be phrased (I think) as "Figured Characteristics and the END cost for STR are rounded for each incremental purchase, all other attributes are rounded once, based on the total value of the characteristic".

I'll have the change included in the next update.

[Talon]

...and there was much rejoicing.



(yay)

[JmOz]

Originally posted by dsimon
OK...even though Steve answered your question with the same answer he had given me during the testing, he and I talked about it a fair bit afterwards. There <b>are</b> discrepancies in the rounding rules as they currently stand. As JmOz pointed out, the damage (and lifting capacity, etc) from STR are not rounded incrementally with each purchase; they are totaled together and then rounded once.

However, other attributes are rounded incrementally. Figured Characteristics, END usage on STR, etc. These items <i>have</i> to be calculated incrementally, since individual modifiers on the purchases can affect the numbers (reduced END, increased END, does not affect figured, etc).

So, the question became whether Leaping more closely resembles HTH Damage in its calculation or whether it is more akin to the END usage on STR in its calculation.

Steve has been pondering this for a while now (ever since the question was raised and we talked). He's decided to change the way Leaping functions and make it round once, like the damage for STR does.

The idea is to simplify the rounding rules, which can now be phrased (I think) as "Figured Characteristics and the END cost for STR are rounded for each incremental purchase, all other attributes are rounded once, based on the total value of the characteristic".

I'll have the change included in the next update.

Cool, Thank you for not just droping it.

[Force]

Does this affect other stats such as con and dex?

If not, then why only str?

[Simon]

It does not affect any Figured Characteristics. Those <i>have</i> to be calculated incrementally, as you can buy +10 STR, +10 STR; No Figured Characteristics; +10 STR; 0 END, etc.

On STR, the only items that are calculated off of the total (i.e. not incrementally) are the HTH Damage and the bonus to your Leaping.

This is a match for items like OCV/DCV (calculated as total DEX/3), PER Roll (total INT/3), etc.

[Force]

Originally posted by dsimon
It does not affect any Figured Characteristics. Those <i>have</i> to be calculated incrementally, as you can buy +10 STR, +10 STR; No Figured Characteristics; +10 STR; 0 END, etc.

On STR, the only items that are calculated off of the total (i.e. not incrementally) are the HTH Damage and the bonus to your Leaping.

This is a match for items like OCV/DCV (calculated as total DEX/3), PER Roll (total INT/3), etc.

I guess that's my point. Why are not ocv/dcv not calculated that way? I mean if I have 8 dex, then by +8 dex as a power why do I have 5 ocv/dcv instead of 6 ocv/dcv?

Is this simply a steve-ism that ONLY str is 'calculated' seperately?

[Simon]

Originally posted by Force
I guess that's my point. Why are not ocv/dcv not calculated that way? I mean if I have 8 dex, then by +8 dex as a power why do I have 5 ocv/dcv instead of 6 ocv/dcv?

Is this simply a steve-ism that ONLY str is 'calculated' seperately?

If you want rationale as to "why" you'll need to talk to Steve. Offhand, I'd say that it's to keep it simple....it's far easier to calculate from the total than to do incremental calculations/roundings. Since there's no way to buy DEX without having it affect your OCV/DCV, then there's no "harm" in calculating from the total.

Again, though, I'm not the one making the rules....I just make sure that HD follows them.