Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

[phydaux]

Is it just me, or are there "more than a few" similarities between the official Champions universe and the Marvel universe?

These are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head:

Dr. Destoryer = Dr Doom
Mechanon = Ultron
Fabulous Five = Fantastic Four
Instute for Human Advancement = generic Marvel anti-mutant crap
Minutemen = Sentinels
Grond = The Hulk
Ravenswood Academy = Xavier's School (although more like one of the Saturday mourning cartoons than the comic)

In fact, I think the only homage the Champs uni has to DC at all is the Harbringer of Justice (better known as Batman) and he only occures in Dark Champions.

[philnicau]

Is it just me, or are there "more than a few" similarities between the official Champions universe and the Marvel universe?

These are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head:

Dr. Destoryer = Dr Doom
Mechanon = Ultron
Fabulous Five = Fantastic Four
Instute for Human Advancement = generic Marvel anti-mutant crap
Minutemen = Sentinels
Grond = The Hulk
Ravenswood Academy = Xavier's School (although more like one of the Saturday mourning cartoons than the comic)

In fact, I think the only homage the Champs uni has to DC at all is the Harbringer of Justice (better known as Batman) and he only occures in Dark Champions.

add in
UNTIL-Shield
VIPER-Hydra/AIM

[Sean Waters]

Well, given that Marvel was one of the main inventors of the genre a little derivation is to be expected. Let's not get the nice people at Hero sued, eh....

[phydaux]

Well, given that Marvel was one of the main inventors of the genre a little derivation is to be expected.

And I'm primarily a Marvel fan. But don't you think there should be just a little DC influence?

The only thing in the Champions Universe book that I can think of is on page 23 regarding Star*Guardian being assigned to Earth's Solar System by the Odragans. This smacks of the Green Lanters Corp and the Guardians, but I think Marvel has a few alien heros with similar origins. (NOT Rom)

[paigeoliver]

The problem with the DC Universe to me was that everyone else just couldn't be as cool as Batman and Superman, who were both all-powerful in their respective areas.

Now Marvel! Fantastic Four, Luke Cage, Daredevil, oh yeah!

[Superskrull]

In fact, I think the only homage the Champs uni has to DC at all is the Harbringer of Justice (better known as Batman) and he only occures in Dark Champions.

He can also be seen as being like the Punisher, considering their mutual penchant for perforating punks. Batman's not so fond of the whole gunplay motif.

[The Watcher]

add in
UNTIL-Shield
VIPER-Hydra/AIMActually, ARGENT would be the AIM analog for CU.

And I believe the Justice Squadron is supposed to be the JLA analog.

[Metaphysician]

JSA, actually. JLA bits are incorporated into the Sentinels, though its more an Avengers analogue.

[assault]

Franklin Stone - Lex Luther
Black Harlequin - The Joker
Viperia - Supergirl(!)
Nighthawk - Batclone
Meteorman - Green Lantern
Kinetik - Flash

Doubtless there are others.

Funnily enough, today I was thinking about the characters presented in the first edition of Champions. They occurred to me as being a mix of DC heroes and Marvel villains. I'm not quite sure what I am going to do with that thought, but I think there is an idea in there somewhere.

[jackalope]

Foxbat- Batman inspired

I always run Foxbat as if he thought he was the Adam West Batman.

I think the CU is more like the MU than the DCU, though it has analogs for most of the DCU's major characters. For me, more than anything, it's the exsistence of UNTIL/Shield, whose semi-constant presence really lends that Marvel flavor. Also, the MU is just more Mook Friendly than the DCU, with way more villainous Super Agent organizations, and the CU reflects that as well.

Also, the CU has no clear Superman analog, and it's Batman clone (Nighthawk) is just not on par with the real Bats. Also, he takes orders from Iron Man (Defender)! I just can't imagine the DCU without the JLA and Supes being everywhere.


Of course, the MU has analogs for most of the DCU, so it's possible that what appear to be DCU analogs in the CU are actually clones of the Marvel characters that are analogs of the DCU characters. I mean, maybe Nighthawk is actually a clone of Marvel's Batman analog from the Squadron Supreme...Nighthawk (http://www.norse-man.net/Marvel/Char-N/Nighthawk1.htm). Who knows?

[Metaphysician]

And Champs U has a serious ( non-ducky ) Batman analogue, too, sort of. . .

. . .the Harbinger of Justice.

He's just not welcome in superheroic company. . .

[SleepyDrug]

And Champs U has a serious ( non-ducky ) Batman analogue, too, sort of. . .

. . .the Harbinger of Justice.

He's just not welcome in superheroic company. . .

Nope, the Harbinger is more Punisher than Batman.
Although the host of ugly villains remind me of Batman.

[assault]

When I run through a list in my head of cool villain concepts Marvel villains always pop up first. Dr. Doom, Magneto, Loki, Ultron, Juggernaut, Mephisto, Masters of Evil, Green Goblin, ect. The only DC villains that really pop into my head are Ras AL Ghul, Sinestro, and Darkseid.


Hmm... Vandal Savage, Gorilla Grodd(!), Brainiac, the Ultra-Humanite, Solomon Grundy, the Wizard, the Fiddler, Deathstroke the Terminator, Lex Luther, Metallo, the Parasite, Two-Face, the Phantom Zone Villains...

A couple of these are personal favourites rather than to everyone's taste, of course. As for the Marvel villains you listed, the only ones that do much for me are Dr Doom and Magneto, although all of them are OK.

I will concede your general point though: Marvel is probably better at churning out cartloads of vaguely interesting villains.

On the other hand, DC has better heroes, IMHO.

As far as my Champions games go, my favourite villain concepts all boil down to: a silly costume, a mad laugh, a pack of flunkies and a superweapon. Who needs powers?

You might want to give some of them a way of escaping when their plots are foiled, but others might just simply be arrested. Check out Dr Doom's first appearance - the only personal power he actually used was flight, and that was when he was escaping.

PS: I also think your list of cool Marvel villains is deficient. Where is Namor, the Skrulls and the Hulk?

[Jhamin]

Nope, the Harbinger is more Punisher than Batman.
Although the host of ugly villains remind me of Batman.

I would argue that the Harbringer is Punisher's philosophy and methods combined with Batmans uber-competence and "I'm a normal that can own most supers" skill set.

[SleepyDrug]

I would argue that the Harbringer is Punisher's philosophy and methods combined with Batmans uber-competence and "I'm a normal that can own most supers" skill set.

Possibly. If he wasn't so lame i'd compare him to Solo (from Spider-Man) but i can see your point.

[CrosshairCollie]

I prefer the Marvel U to the DC U for the most part, because of how the heroes are set up. DC heroes are all 'icons', as it were ... the headline DC characters were all uber-competent, nigh-perfect characters. They were symbols, in a way ... always in control of their lives. Their powers granted them control over their little parts of the universe.

Compare/constrast with Spider-Man, who had fewer problems in costume than in his secret ID, the Hulk who was uncontrollable, the Thing who didn't want his powers, the public backlash of mutancy, etc etc. Basically, Marvel's heroes were more 'human' than DCs ... which I think is important.

Or, I could just be completely f'ing loco. Your call.

[SleepyDrug]

I prefer the Marvel U to the DC U for the most part, because of how the heroes are set up. DC heroes are all 'icons', as it were ... the headline DC characters were all uber-competent, nigh-perfect characters. They were symbols, in a way ... always in control of their lives. Their powers granted them control over their little parts of the universe.


They tend to overshadow any other character by their very presence.



Compare/constrast with Spider-Man, who had fewer problems in costume than in his secret ID, the Hulk who was uncontrollable, the Thing who didn't want his powers, the public backlash of mutancy, etc etc. Basically, Marvel's heroes were more 'human' than DCs ... which I think is important.

Or, I could just be completely f'ing loco. Your call.

You have a good point. When I ran a comics based campaign. I mixed both universes. But most my villains were Marvel's. Outside of Batman, and to an extent Superman, DC has few memorable villains.

[assault]

Basically, Marvel's heroes were more 'human' than DCs ... which I think is important.


For my money, Marvel overdoes the "heroes with problems" bit. They go beyond 'human' into soap opera.

Of course, these days Batman is as messed up as Spiderman, the Hulk and the Thing combined. :(

On a slightly different note, I like the FF and original X-Men a lot more than the original Avengers. Thor? Iron Man? Ant-Man? Yawn.

I don't even know who are in the Avengers or the X-Men at the moment. I presume the FF are pretty much the same as always.

[Kristopher]

Considering the slaughterhouse the hacks made out of Avengers, it's anyone's guess as to who is on that team at this point.

[Metaphysician]

Well, the roster post-Disassembled is known: Cap, Iron Man, Spider-man, Wolverine, Spiderwoman, Luke Cage, and Sentry.

IOW, it sucks.

[Kristopher]

Besides whoever the hell is Sentry, it's not the characters, so much as the fact that the characters don't, for the most part, fit the book or the team at all.

[Metaphysician]

The Sentry is a character from a limited series done by Marvel. Basically, he was the Silver Age Superman of the Marvel U, until the manifestation of his dark side threatened the entire universe, forcing the entire world to forget he ever existed, including him.

Good concept, but incomprehensible why or how it would be used in a mainline comic.

Combine that with potential Spider and Wolvie issues, and the two pet characters. . .

[Jhamin]

I presume the FF are pretty much the same as always.

I hear the editors may try to shake things up by having one of them threaten to *gasp* leave the Fantastic Four. :rolleyes:

[Kristopher]

The Sentry is a character from a limited series done by Marvel. Basically, he was the Silver Age Superman of the Marvel U, until the manifestation of his dark side threatened the entire universe, forcing the entire world to forget he ever existed, including him.

Good concept, but incomprehensible why or how it would be used in a mainline comic.

Combine that with potential Spider and Wolvie issues, and the two pet characters. . .


Pet characters? Which two? (Depends on what you mean by the term.)

[CrosshairCollie]

I argue that Spider-Man is a bad fit for an Avenger. He's been an Avengers reservist before, and has shown excellent teamwork skills in the past.

Now, Wolverine doesn't even deserve to *EXIST*, much less be a member of the most prestigious super-team on Marvel-Earth.

[Steve]

You have a good point. When I ran a comics based campaign. I mixed both universes. But most my villains were Marvel's. Outside of Batman, and to an extent Superman, DC has few memorable villains.

I always thought Darkseid had a certain evil majesty to his villainy, and the Time Trapper can make for an interesting bad guy as well.

[Jhamin]

You have a good point. When I ran a comics based campaign. I mixed both universes. But most my villains were Marvel's. Outside of Batman, and to an extent Superman, DC has few memorable villains.

There are a few, but not many

-Sinestro
-Gorilla Grod
-Darkseid & minions (who started out seperatly, even if Supes meets them alot)
-Weather Wizard

Still, your right. All the DC baddies that jump up do come from the two big books.

Almost every long running Marvel book as 5+ memorable baddies.

[Corven_Ren]

Dr. Destoryer = Dr Doom

I'm not saying your wrong on this. But If memory serves me correctly. And after going over the old module Day of the Destroyer. Old Doc Destroyer is moe like Dr. Doom + the Red Skull as Destroyer used to be a Nazi.

[Metaphysician]

Pet characters? Which two? (Depends on what you mean by the term.)

Luke Cage and Spiderwoman, both characters that have appeared in Bendis' other books.

[Metaphysician]

Not to mention the whole "Utter lack of any even slightly redeeming value" deal with Dr Destroyer.

[Kristopher]

I argue that Spider-Man is a bad fit for an Avenger. He's been an Avengers reservist before, and has shown excellent teamwork skills in the past.


Um...are you arguing that Spidey is a bad fit, or are you arging that he's a good fit? Your two sentences say opposite things. And which Avenger is he a bd fit for, anyway?



Now, Wolverine doesn't even deserve to *EXIST*, much less be a member of the most prestigious super-team on Marvel-Earth.


Sheesh, save your loathing for a character who actual deserves such spittle and venom. What makes Wolverine such a terrible character? In part, I ask because the venom and hate often directed at him is actually inspired by his fans.

As for the Avengers, well, they're not looking very prestigious right now.

[Kristopher]

Not to mention the whole "Utter lack of any even slightly redeeming value" deal with Dr Destroyer.

You're refering to the Destroyer / Doom comparison, right?

[phydaux]

What makes Wolverine such a terrible character?

It isn't the character, it's how he's written. Or rather, how some anoying, unwashed, pimple-infested, dateless fan-boys insist on interprating him.

"No, Logan's superior, mutant sense of smell would detect the lubrication in War Machine's armor even if it was in stealth mode. And even if Wolverine couldn't smell War Machine, his superior, mutant sense of hearing would hear the eletrical current coursing through the armor, allowing Wolverine to make a blind, called-shot to War Machine's throat. Since Wolvie's Adamantiun claws are stronger that War Machine's Titanium mesh armor, War Machine would be decapatated..."

DC has the Bat-god, Marvel has Logan-god.

[i](BTW, the GM in the ONLY game of the old Marvel RPG I EVER played pulled that EXACT trick on me.)

[assault]

There are a few, but not many

-Sinestro
-Gorilla Grod
-Darkseid & minions (who started out seperatly, even if Supes meets them alot)
-Weather Wizard

Still, your right. All the DC baddies that jump up do come from the two big books.

Almost every long running Marvel book as 5+ memorable baddies.

You've listed at least two from Flash already. Let's add: Vandal Savage (very nasty), Captain Cold (very silly) and, oh, the whole Rogues' Gallery. Let's face it the Rogues are probably more memorable collectively than individually. :)

How about: Professor Zoom, Abra Kadabra and Dr. Alchemy, for characters at the more serious end.

OK, the LSH: the Time Trapper (and Glorith), the Fatal Five (Validus, the Emerald Empress...), the Legion of Supervillains (who killed Karate Kid?). Mordru, while tough, doesn't quite rate for me. Instead, I might suggest Evillo of Tartarus, if only for the story with Sugyn, Polar Boy and Matter Eater Lad....

Green Lantern: uhh, I haven't read much of his stuff for a long time. Let's see: Sinestro, Star Sapphire, the Manhunters...

Golden Age characters:
Solomon Grundy (an old favourite of mine).
The Ultra-Humanite (the Golden Age miniseries should just how scary he can be).
There are a bunch of others that should up in memorable stories, even if they aren't so flash themselves. The Wizard comes to mind, since he was in the "Earth-2 Superman marries Lois" story.

New Teen Titans: Brother Blood, Trigon, Deathstroke the Terminator, Terra, H.I.V.E. (possibly the only global criminal conspiracy to ever be defeated!).

There's enough stuff there. Granted, there maybe a higher proportion of decent Marvel villains, but, then again, there is a very high proportion of Marvel rubbish as well.

And nothing DC currently produces sucks quite so hard as the thousand and one X-titles...

[SleepyDrug]

Originally Posted by Jhamin
There are a few, but not many

-Sinestro
-Gorilla Grod
-Darkseid & minions (who started out seperatly, even if Supes meets them alot)
-Weather Wizard


You've listed at least two from Flash already. Let's add: Vandal Savage (very nasty), Captain Cold (very silly) and, oh, the whole Rogues' Gallery. Let's face it the Rogues are probably more memorable collectively than individually. :)

How about: Professor Zoom, Abra Kadabra and Dr. Alchemy, for characters at the more serious end.


I think very little of the Rogues. Grodd, Zoom, and Savage is about it for Flash's interesting villains.



OK, the LSH: the Time Trapper (and Glorith), the Fatal Five (Validus, the Emerald Empress...), the Legion of Supervillains (who killed Karate Kid?). Mordru, while tough, doesn't quite rate for me. Instead, I might suggest Evillo of Tartarus, if only for the story with Sugyn, Polar Boy and Matter Eater Lad....


Mordru is the only LSH villain I know; and then because of his JSA run.



Green Lantern: uhh, I haven't read much of his stuff for a long time. Let's see: Sinestro, Star Sapphire, the Manhunters...


And all Kyle ever had was Effigy, Fatale, Grayven, Nero and the Black Circle. Sad for a 100 issue run.



Golden Age characters:
Solomon Grundy (an old favourite of mine).
The Ultra-Humanite (the Golden Age miniseries should just how scary he can be).
There are a bunch of others that should up in memorable stories, even if they aren't so flash themselves. The Wizard comes to mind, since he was in the "Earth-2 Superman marries Lois" story.

New Teen Titans: Brother Blood, Trigon, Deathstroke the Terminator, Terra, H.I.V.E. (possibly the only global criminal conspiracy to ever be defeated!).


Titans have some good stuff there. JSA less so. DC is more character than villain driven.



There's enough stuff there. Granted, there maybe a higher proportion of decent Marvel villains, but, then again, there is a very high proportion of Marvel rubbish as well.

And nothing DC currently produces sucks quite so hard as the thousand and one X-titles...

X-Titles aren't all bad. But then, few of the X-Men's core villains have been used recently. The point is that the X-Men have many interesting villains easily listed: Magneto, Apocalypse, Mr Sinister, Hellfire Club, Brood, Nimrod, Sentinels, Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, Acolytes, Black Tom...

Avengers: Loki, Thanos, Ultron, Kang, Morgan Le Fay, Immortus, Kree, Masters of Evil, Grandmaster, Grim Reaper, Count Nefaria....

I can't name that many JLA villains (and yes, i read te title)

[CrosshairCollie]

Um...are you arguing that Spidey is a bad fit, or are you arging that he's a good fit? Your two sentences say opposite things. And which Avenger is he a bd fit for, anyway?

Sheesh, save your loathing for a character who actual deserves such spittle and venom. What makes Wolverine such a terrible character? In part, I ask because the venom and hate often directed at him is actually inspired by his fans.

As for the Avengers, well, they're not looking very prestigious right now.

Sorry, misphrased. Spidey would make a good Avenger.

Lessee ... firstly, Wolverine is all attitude, no personality (well, a personality defined as a non-stop series of macho cliche's). He kills far too casually. His origin remains the most obnoxiously convoluted and contradictory thing ever. He's a complete ass with no redeeming values whatsoever, and he's yet another in a long line of 'I'm really a villain, but these heroes let me hang around with them anyway because I boost sales' characters.

[Kristopher]

In other words, he's not four-color. :rolleyes:

[Metaphysician]

You're refering to the Destroyer / Doom comparison, right?

Yep.

[assault]

I can't name that many JLA villains (and yes, i read te title)

I agree as far as the current JLA go. The only villain that really attracted my attention "recently" was Kanjar Ro, and that ended up as a bit of a letdown. But then, I haven't read the whole run.

The original JLA was something else, of course. And the JLI was something else again...

Oops. Memorable JLI villains? Oh dear. I've tried very hard to suppress those memories.

Let's see: the Scarlet Skier, Mr Nebula, the Injustice League, _those_ penguins, Manga Khan, Funky Flashman, Queen Bee, Jack O'Lantern...

Argh! The pain! The PAIN! And it's all your fault!

[CrosshairCollie]

In other words, he's not four-color. :rolleyes:

In other words, he's boring.

[Kristopher]

In other words, he's boring.

At some point, the same could be said of almost any comicbook character. They've all had stints with bad writers, and rotten plots, and retcons. There's nothing wrong with Wolverine in general, and when well-written, he's at least as good as any of the other iconic characters.

For someone who's a two-dimensional macho arse and a murderous villain, he sure seems to attract stray kids. Good thing he never feels any responsibility towards them. [/sarcasm]

[Jhamin]

I'm not saying your wrong on this. But If memory serves me correctly. And after going over the old module Day of the Destroyer. Old Doc Destroyer is moe like Dr. Doom + the Red Skull as Destroyer used to be a Nazi.

I'd say that the Dr. Destroyer from earlier editions was absolutely a Doom with Red Skull influences.

I would argue that the current Dr. Destroyer has alot more in common with DarkSeid or Thanos of Titan.
He is all powerful personally, to the point that most heroes generally fight his minions rather than him, and his character history implies a series of summer mega-book crossovers where a zillion heroes team up to defeat his current plot device.

[proditor]

I dunno, I like some of the DC villains more than the Marvel ones.

Johnny Sorrow (Shudder...)
Mordru
Darkseid
The General (A great character BEFORE he became functionally indestructible)
White Martians
The Bat Rogue's Gallery
5th dimensional imps
Circe
Legion of Super Villains
The Fatal Five
Brother Blood

Now when it comes to themed villains, I generally prefer Marvel. Thanks to Gadgets and Gear, I'm slowly comprising my "homage" team of Wyld Kingdom including such luminaries as The Eel, Porcupine, Er, the...RHino, and some other guys who all have names that desperately need to be changed to protect the innocent.

Marvel has had some good world beaters, but for the down and dirty, take this guy out or the world ends villain, I generally prefer DC. As always, YMMV.

[Kristopher]

I'd say that the Dr. Destroyer from earlier editions was absolutely a Doom with Red Skull influences.

I would argue that the current Dr. Destroyer has alot more in common with DarkSeid or Thanos of Titan.
He is all powerful personally, to the point that most heroes generally fight his minions rather than him, and his character history implies a series of summer mega-book crossovers where a zillion heroes team up to defeat his current plot device.

IMO, a change for the worse.

Of course, it seems to me that a good number of the villains in 5e are designed as "takes the whole team to defeat, unless you're playing cosmic-level heroes" world-beaters.

[starblaze]

Sorry, misphrased. Spidey would make a good Avenger.

Lessee ... firstly, Wolverine is all attitude, no personality (well, a personality defined as a non-stop series of macho cliche's). He kills far too casually. His origin remains the most obnoxiously convoluted and contradictory thing ever. He's a complete ass with no redeeming values whatsoever, and he's yet another in a long line of 'I'm really a villain, but these heroes let me hang around with them anyway because I boost sales' characters.

Actually, with Wolverine it really depends of who is writing him. His early appearances in the X-Men almost got him kicked off the team because of his reckless attitude. However when Byrne and Claremont took over the book Logan become a much more complex and interesting character. There have also been some other stories concerning the Wolverine that where IMO done really well. Then there have been stories where he is nothing more than a cliche-speaking, bloodthirsty, moron. It really depends on who is doing the writing.

Oh, and SpiderMan is a good character but I have always seen him as more of a loner type than a team member. I think it would take away alot of the charm.

[Metaphysician]

I'd say that the Dr. Destroyer from earlier editions was absolutely a Doom with Red Skull influences.

I would argue that the current Dr. Destroyer has alot more in common with DarkSeid or Thanos of Titan.
He is all powerful personally, to the point that most heroes generally fight his minions rather than him, and his character history implies a series of summer mega-book crossovers where a zillion heroes team up to defeat his current plot device.

That is only because the only heroes we ever get to see are ridiculously weak for world class superheroing.

If all you had to throw at him were 350ers and the occasional inefficiently built 500-600er, Dr Doom would require mass hoards of all the worlds heroes to beat, too.

Which is why he *isn't* faced with the hoard of wimps; he's faced with the Fantastic Four.

Completely aside from this, any comparison with Thanos breeds thoughts that Dr Destroyer is as powerful as Thanos. He is not, never has been, and never will be.

[Metaphysician]

IMO, a change for the worse.

Of course, it seems to me that a good number of the villains in 5e are designed as "takes the whole team to defeat, unless you're playing cosmic-level heroes" world-beaters.

No, they are merely designed to require teams to oppose them that are *actually powerful.*

If you try and take Gravitar on with 350 point heroes, you deserve the curbstomping you get.

[SleepyDrug]

But it is also a fact that most Champions games are TEAM focused. How many campaigns are the equivalent of a solo title? Most Champions campaigns are the equivalent of an Avengers/Defenders/Alpha Flight/JLA/JSA style comic book.

And in those books the hero's fight either world shaking villains (such as Mechanon, Dr Destroyer, Menton, Gravitar, or the Warlord) or teams (such as EuroStar, PSI, or the Ultimates) or organizations (such as Viper or Demon).

Most of the CU's "solo villains" are a match for only one or two heroes at a time; so they get cast in the role of impromptu teams.

What the CU seems to lack is second tier criminal masterminds equivalent to the Marvel Universe's Baron Zemo, Imus Champion, Egghead, Mad Thinker, or Mystique

The type of villains who hire various villains to flesh out their teams. Of the potential lower tier masterminds in CKC most lack this aspect: Black Harlequin, Black Paladin, Anubis, Holocast all are solo operators.

We have no Dr Octopus or Beetle types that hire other solo villains to be thier gang or team.

[SleepyDrug]

I agree. There do need to be more "Minor-Master Villains." Right off the top of my head I can only think of Holocaust (I disagree with you about him), Dark Seraph (who already has his own team), Interface, and Zorran who can readily fit that bill. I would put Mechanon in this group as well, though he does not seem to have any real interest in using other villains beneath him. The campaign needs those Minor-Masters so they can work up to the true world-shakers.

As far a solo villains, I think half of CKC is devoted to villains at 400 points or less. Any of them are a decent match-up for starting characters, one one one.

Mechanon wouldn't form a team.
Interface -- who is this?

Dark Seraph, Zorran, and Holocaust are a good start. So might Photon or Tesseract come to think of it.

[Andrew Cermak]

I agree. There do need to be more "Minor-Master Villains." Right off the top of my head I can only think of Holocaust (I disagree with you about him), Dark Seraph (who already has his own team), Interface, and Zorran who can readily fit that bill.

Slug, perhaps. King Cobra, though like Dark Seraph he has underlings of his own. Anubis could probably be adapted to the role easily enough.

I'm converting Neutron and Sunburst for that exact purpose as well.

[jackalope]

I hear the editors may try to shake things up by having one of them threaten to *gasp* leave the Fantastic Four. :rolleyes:

Actually, they went a step further than that.

The horde of alien survivors of Galactus (who have been around for years), just recently came to earth, with plans to hurl all of Manhattan into the sun (I love FF villains, they're always so creative), to eliminate one superhero (tossing the city into the sun was faster and easier than searching the city apparently) who has the power to see through the cloaking devices that the survivor's have placed on sentient worlds around the galaxy. See, Galactus is on his way to make that super his new herald, so that he can find all the planets the survivors have cloaked.

That super? Why, Sue Storm, the Invisible Woman, of course. She had massive levels of Dispel Invisibility, don'tchaknow? Anyways, Reed tricks the aliens into thinking he has removed Sue's powers, when what he's actually done is switched her powers with Johnny's. So now Sue is the Human Torch, and Johnny is the Invisible Man.

All is well and good, except that it turns out Galactus was much closer to Earth than Reed suspected, and at the end of #519 he shows up, zaps Johnny, and turns him into a herald (with a very, very cool Kirby-inspired costume). The last shot is Johnny going "Oh crud!" as he realizes what has just happened to him.

Talk about a shake-up! Johnny is now a herald, Sue is now the Human Torch, and the Four are down to Three!

Personally, I really hope this isn't just a temporary thing, I'd love to see Big G get a new herald, and I don't like Johnny much as he is (never have, think he's a whiny doof). Heraldization can only be an improvement! And Sue as the Human Torch is a cool touch.

And to all the Wolverine nay-sayers: Pthhhpppttbbbttt!!!! I hate his fan-boys as much as the next guy, but he is a cool character in the hands of right writer. Though I'm personally glad Joss Whedon is down-playing him in the new Astonishing series.

[Andrew Cermak]

Beamline might make an interesting choice as well, or Borealis as a northern threat.

Profesor Muerte could be resurrected. Time Master could be brought back..perhaps as an evil, parallel timeline version of Captain Chronos.

Oh, and Frizbe, of course.

[Kristopher]

But it is also a fact that most Champions games are TEAM focused. How many campaigns are the equivalent of a solo title? Most Champions campaigns are the equivalent of an Avengers/Defenders/Alpha Flight/JLA/JSA style comic book.

And in those books the hero's fight either world shaking villains (such as Mechanon, Dr Destroyer, Menton, Gravitar, or the Warlord) or teams (such as EuroStar, PSI, or the Ultimates) or organizations (such as Viper or Demon).

Most of the CU's "solo villains" are a match for only one or two heroes at a time; so they get cast in the role of impromptu teams.

What the CU seems to lack is second tier criminal masterminds equivalent to the Marvel Universe's Baron Zemo, Imus Champion, Egghead, Mad Thinker, or Mystique

The type of villains who hire various villains to flesh out their teams. Of the potential lower tier masterminds in CKC most lack this aspect: Black Harlequin, Black Paladin, Anubis, Holocast all are solo operators.

We have no Dr Octopus or Beetle types that hire other solo villains to be thier gang or team.

Something that would give us a much better sense of scale for the CU would be a published collection of the established superheroes. Not the underpowered-for-their-apparent-role Champions, but all the heroes and teams mention in Champions Universe and other books who haven't had their stats and backgrounds published. DoJ needs to show us the heroes who have stood toe-to-toe with the various threats we've seen so richly detailed so far. Give us an understanding of the other side of the scale. Show us how they were able to deal with some of the massively bloated villains we've been shown so far.

[SleepyDrug]

Something that would give us a much better sense of scale for the CU would be a published collection of the established superheroes. Not the underpowered-for-their-apparent-role Champions, but all the heroes and teams mention in Champions Universe and other books who haven't had their stats and backgrounds published. DoJ needs to show us the heroes who have stood toe-to-toe with the various threats we've seen so richly detailed so far. Give us an understanding of the other side of the scale. Show us how they were able to deal with some of the massively bloated villains we've been shown so far.

I agree. The "standard" power level discussed in Champions, CU, and FREd does *not* match the write-ups in CKC and other villain books. I think the Champions should in actuality be around 500 points. With other heroes betweeen 300 (for rookies) to 600. Of course, in my universe, I have altered the Champions and use Eitherio's Project XIII has a hero team.

But i'm focused on villain roles.

Master Villains -- World Shakers
Comic Eq: Red Skull, Dr Doom, Magneto, Graviton, Mandarin, Nefaria
C U: Dr Destroyer, Mechanon, Istvahan V'han, Gravitar, Warlord, Teleios

Master Villains -- City Threats
Comic Eq: Baron Zemo, Mystique, Dr Octopus, Crimson Cowl
C U: Zorran, Anubis, Holocaust
C U (with teams): Binder, Fiacho, Psimon

The question here is, partially -- who do all of these solo villains "for hire" get employed by? the mob?

Viper, PSI, Destroyer, Binder, Fiacho, Dark Seraph...all have supers on the payroll already. Where are the masterminds and crimelords that need to hire impromptu teams of villains?

[humantorch101]

Something that would give us a much better sense of scale for the CU would be a published collection of the established superheroes. Not the underpowered-for-their-apparent-role Champions, but all the heroes and teams mention in Champions Universe and other books who haven't had their stats and backgrounds published. DoJ needs to show us the heroes who have stood toe-to-toe with the various threats we've seen so richly detailed so far. Give us an understanding of the other side of the scale. Show us how they were able to deal with some of the massively bloated villains we've been shown so far.

Yep, agreed this seems to be called for again and again by various posters here but we always get the answer "hero books dont sell"
I disagree, if hero characters were always given villain options everyone would be happy.
I want to point out however we need to see the iconic experianced heroes of the CU not just350-450 point characters.

We need to see the Spiderman, Superman, Captain America, Batman, Green Lantern, Thor, Iron Man etc. not just in raw power but in experiance too.

Direct question for DOJ are we ever gonna see these type of heroic characters published?

rgds
Torch

[humantorch101]

I believe Darren said it might make the 2006 schedule. :)

Really? cool. Was that recently?

rgds
Torch

[Vorsch]

Dr D is nothing like dr doom, doom wins by planning and special weapons vs weaknesses, power wise hes not in Iron mans league. Dr Destroyers wins on sheer power in all areas, attacks skills spd dex etc, his armour is more on the level of Green lanturn.

I mean 30d6 attacks, 48 with gadget pool and a ocv of 15 spd 8 ish....please

[SleepyDrug]

I have no problem with the villain's power levels in the Champions Universe, outside of Dr. Destroyer and Takofanes. I understand the villains are generally going to be outnumbered somewhere between 2 - 6 to 1. They need to be designed to withstand teams of 2 to 6 characters. As I said above, about half of the villains in the Champions Universe are built on 400 points or less and those are all decent one-to-one opponents for the 350 point characters.

My own list of villains would be as follows:

Imperial Villains: Dr. Destroyer, Istvantha, Skarn, Takofanes, Tyrannon

Master Villains: Gravitar, Mechanon, Menton, Teleios, Viperia, Warlord

Minor-Master Villains: Black Paladin, Holocaust, Interface, Stingray, Zorran

Crime Lords: Kevin Poe, Franklin Stone, The Purple Gang, Jade Phoenix

I like your division. Who are Poe, Jade Phoenix, and the Purple Gang? Stone I know is in CU. Where are the rest from?

[SleepyDrug]

Dr D is nothing like dr doom, doom wins by planning and special weapons vs weaknesses, power wise hes not in Iron mans league. Dr Destroyers wins on sheer power in all areas, attacks skills spd dex etc, his armour is more on the level of Green lanturn.

I mean 30d6 attacks, 48 with gadget pool and a ocv of 15 spd 8 ish....please

Steve Long has said that Dr Destroyer is the Champions Universe version of Dr Doom.

[Vorsch]

Well that makes it so then dosent it.

Didnt Know doom had the highest damage of any marvel character, with the dex and spd of spiderman.

The similarities are now apparent to me.

[Haerandir]

I like your division. Who are Poe, Jade Phoenix, and the Purple Gang? Stone I know is in CU. Where are the rest from?

They're from the Millenium City sourcebook.

[Kristopher]

It's just a matter of intent vs results. DoJ probably did intend Destroyer to be the CU's Doom -- "Doctor", power armor, would-be world tyrant, etc.

The room for arguement is in whether one thinks the results worked out as planned. Doctor Destroyer strikes me as much more of a monster -- morally, and in combat -- than Doom. (Although I freely admit to not being an expert on Dr Doom.)

[Jhamin]

This is why I bring up the Dr Destroyer = Darkseid or Thanos arguments.

Dr. Destroyer attacks, defences, powers and skills make him one of the 4 or 5 most personally powerful beings we have seen in the modern Champions Universe. The others are space gods and immortal magic lords. It takes an alliance of dozens of heroes to fight him, and every time he does enter combat Heros start dying.

If they existed in the Champs U he would totally go after the Cosmic Cube, Infinity Gauntlet, or Anti-Life equation.

[SleepyDrug]

This is why I bring up the Dr Destroyer = Darkseid or Thanos arguments.

Dr. Destroyer attacks, defences, powers and skills make him one of the 4 or 5 most personally powerful beings we have seen in the modern Champions Universe. The others are space gods and immortal magic lords. It takes an alliance of dozens of heroes to fight him, and every time he does enter combat Heros start dying.

If they existed in the Champs U he would totally go after the Cosmic Cube, Infinity Gauntlet, or Anti-Life equation.

True....but then Doom did go after the Infinity Gauntlet and the Cosmic Cube at times; as well as the Silver Surfer's power cosmic, the Beyonder's power, and augmented magical power.

In the end, Destroyer is probably a combo of Doom & Thanos. He has Doom's power set and motives (sans the redeemable stuff) with Thanos' power levels. Or...Destroyer is Doom with much more power and less morals.

[Boll Weevil]

I'll agree the Champions Universe has many Marvel analogs. In my own games I have seen the same parallels. I try to make my own characters as unique as possible but when they are fleshed out the invariably resemble something from Marvel. The players I have gamed with do the same. I've lost count of the many Wolverine clones who have come to play at my table. I know many on these boards, especially those who are more hardcore comicbook fans than I, are weary of the mutant phenomenon (adolescent mutant emergence, hysteria etc). I do it too. Always have. I for one like gaming in a mutant world.

[SleepyDrug]

I'll agree the Champions Universe has many Marvel analogs. In my own games I have seen the same parallels. I try to make my own characters as unique as possible but when they are fleshed out the invariably resemble something from Marvel. The players I have gamed with do the same. I've lost count of the many Wolverine clones who have come to play at my table. I know many on these boards, especially those who are more hardcore comicbook fans than I, are weary of the mutant phenomenon (adolescent mutant emergence, hysteria etc). I do it too. Always have. I for one like gaming in a mutant world.

My worlds are usually more along the lines of an Avengers or JLA comic. I like the anti-mutant elements, but not as a game focus.

[Metaphysician]

Dr D is nothing like dr doom, doom wins by planning and special weapons vs weaknesses, power wise hes not in Iron mans league. Dr Destroyers wins on sheer power in all areas, attacks skills spd dex etc, his armour is more on the level of Green lanturn.

I mean 30d6 attacks, 48 with gadget pool and a ocv of 15 spd 8 ish....please

Actually, while Dr Destroyer might have more raw firepower than Doom usually carries, yes, Doom is in IM's league or beyond. He's survived orbital reentry in the suit.

If anything, his armor is even more powerful than Destroyer's, trading out raw internal firepower for greater defensive ability and flexibility.

[Metaphysician]

True....but then Doom did go after the Infinity Gauntlet and the Cosmic Cube at times; as well as the Silver Surfer's power cosmic, the Beyonder's power, and augmented magical power.

In the end, Destroyer is probably a combo of Doom & Thanos. He has Doom's power set and motives (sans the redeemable stuff) with Thanos' power levels. Or...Destroyer is Doom with much more power and less morals.

He. Does. Not. Have. Thanos'. Power. Level.

Thanos. Considers. A Megaton Range Nuke. To Be Something. You Use. To Clear Away the Riff Raff. By Dropping it At Your Feet.

[SleepyDrug]

He. Does. Not. Have. Thanos'. Power. Level.

Thanos. Considers. A Megaton Range Nuke. To Be Something. You Use. To Clear Away the Riff Raff. By Dropping it At Your Feet.

i would help...before the obviously intended attitude...if you *read* my posts and responded to what. i. wrote.

Let's recap. (1) I said "Destroyer is probably a combo of Doom & Thanos. He has Doom's power set and motives (sans the redeemable stuff) with Thanos' power levels. Or...Destroyer is Doom with much more power and less morals."

This means I AGREE that Doom lacks Thanos' power level.

But (2) for the record....Doom would *happily* use a nuke to clear away riff raff if that was part of his plan. Reference Secret War #11 when Doom killed 40 +/- heroes with a bolt from the blue just because he could.

Thank you for the insult and commentary to something other than my post.

[Metaphysician]

I think we all have different ideas as to what constitutes powerful, with yours being slightly higher than mine. In our Legacy Universe we have Thor, iirc, doing around 25d6 with mjolnir and 29d6 with a haymakert. Having Dr. Destroyer doing 30d6 to 34d6 puts him somewhere between Thor and Darkseid (12d6 RKA) in our game world.

Then your game world has failed to accurately emulate the characters in question.

It boils down to this simple fact: in his earliest appearances, Thanos was capable of cracking apart planets.

Dr Destroyer. . . is not.

[OddHat]

Then your game world has failed to accurately emulate the characters in question.

It boils down to this simple fact: in his earliest appearances, Thanos was capable of cracking apart planets.

Dr Destroyer. . . is not.

Sure he is. You can crack apart planets for 5 points. ;)

[Metaphysician]

i would help...before the obviously intended attitude...if you *read* my posts and responded to what. i. wrote.

Let's recap. (1) I said "Destroyer is probably a combo of Doom & Thanos. He has Doom's power set and motives (sans the redeemable stuff) with Thanos' power levels. Or...Destroyer is Doom with much more power and less morals."

This means I AGREE that Doom lacks Thanos' power level.

"with Thanos' power levels."

Either you mistated originally, or changed your opinion. Pick one.


But (2) for the record....Doom would *happily* use a nuke to clear away riff raff if that was part of his plan. Reference Secret War #11 when Doom killed 40 +/- heroes with a bolt from the blue just because he could.

You misunderstand what I say.

I say that Thanos considers a nuke something to drop at his *own* feet to clear out riff-raff. Neither Doom or Destroyer can casually set off a nuke at point blank without fear of any harm.


Thank you for the insult and commentary to something other than my post.

Your welcome. Now, try rereading what *I* said more carefully.

[OddHat]

I say that Thanos considers a nuke something to drop at his *own* feet to clear out riff-raff. Neither Doom or Destroyer can casually set off a nuke at point blank without fear of any harm.


Invulnerability to a Nuke can be had for 40 active points. No problem. :)

Destroyer is looking tougher all the time ...

[SleepyDrug]

"with Thanos' power levels."

Either you mistated originally, or changed your opinion. Pick one.
You misunderstand what I say.

I say that Thanos considers a nuke something to drop at his *own* feet to clear out riff-raff. Neither Doom or Destroyer can casually set off a nuke at point blank without fear of any harm.

Your welcome. Now, try rereading what *I* said more carefully.

Actually, I could see Doom dropping a nuke at his own feet. And afterwards we'd find that it was a robot doppelganger, or he boosted his defenses magically, or kept himself safe with a special device he built.

Doom or Destroyer sans any special precautions can't casually drop a nuke. But both sport huge VPP gadgeteering pools and are always with some extra boost to their abilities.

BTW, Destroyer did perform the equivalent of nuking himself in Detroit.

[Andrew Cermak]

Invulnerability to a Nuke can be had for 40 active points. No problem. :)



Per Digital Hero, Nukes have Affects Desolidified...

...but then, DD has LS: High Radiation. Does the EMP knock out his LS? Hmmm.

[Kristopher]

"with Thanos' power levels."

Either you mistated originally, or changed your opinion. Pick one.
You misunderstand what I say.



I think the big lack of reading comprehension falls at your feet in this case. SleepyDrug pretty clearly said that Destroyer -- not Doom -- had Thanos's power level.

[Kristopher]

Per Digital Hero, Nukes have Affects Desolidified...

...but then, DD has LS: High Radiation. Does the EMP knock out his LS? Hmmm.

We've already has this discussion, IIRC.

IMO, nothing should have a blanket "Affects Desolidified" because of the wildly different SFX for the power. There's no reason to think that a nuclear weapon would harm a spirit.

[Andrew Cermak]

There's no reason to think that a nuclear weapon would harm a spirit.

Spirits that are assumed to be immune to radiation should have the appropriate LS. Ones that aren't, shouldn't. Thus the Affects Desolidified question re: nuking ghosts is moot.

[Kristopher]

Effects first, then mechanics.

Unless you're arguing from Werewolf's doofy cosmology, there's nothing about a nuclear weapon that should have any effect on supernaturally incorporeal creatures. The radiation passes through harmlessly for the same reason a hand or a bullet would.

[Andrew Cermak]

Effects first, then mechanics.

Unless you're arguing from Werewolf's doofy cosmology, there's nothing about a nuclear weapon that should have any effect on supernaturally incorporeal creatures. The radiation passes through harmlessly for the same reason a hand or a bullet would.

Then, as I said, have all spirits buy total life support, which you'd logically want to buy for them anyway, wouldn't you?. The only part of a nuke that Affects Desolid is the radiation, and that's bought as an NND. Problem solved.

This is a silly argument anyway. To my knowledge the effects of comic-book radiation on ghosts have not yet been throroughly researched.

[WhammeWhamme]

That is only because the only heroes we ever get to see are ridiculously weak for world class superheroing.

If all you had to throw at him were 350ers and the occasional inefficiently built 500-600er, Dr Doom would require mass hoards of all the worlds heroes to beat, too.

Which is why he *isn't* faced with the hoard of wimps; he's faced with the Fantastic Four.

Completely aside from this, any comparison with Thanos breeds thoughts that Dr Destroyer is as powerful as Thanos. He is not, never has been, and never will be.

As for "never will be"... given the Editions Inflating, I give him till 6th Edition, 7th Edition at the latest.

[The Watcher]

I think the big lack of reading comprehension falls at your feet in this case. SleepyDrug pretty clearly said that Destroyer -- not Doom -- had Thanos's power level.Actually, yours and SleepyDrug's reading comprehension is what rolled an 18 in this case.

Metaphysician is saying that neither Doctor Destroyer nor Doom have Thanos' power level.

[OddHat]

Per Digital Hero, Nukes have Affects Desolidified...

...but then, DD has LS: High Radiation. Does the EMP knock out his LS? Hmmm.

Triggered Extra Dimensional Movement is cheap as well. ;)

[OddHat]

This is a silly argument anyway. To my knowledge the effects of comic-book radiation on ghosts have not yet been throroughly researched.

So you're not reading the Incorporeal Hulk maxi-series?

:D

[freakboy6117]

only oen comic book universe i know of has a definitive answer on spirits and nukes and thats wildstorm which states catagorically that the soul is an electromagnetic wave that is totally disrupted by nukes[leading to peopel strapping them selves to them to avoid the afterlife] not that its much help overall.

[The Watcher]

I think the big question is should nuclear radiation be bouught with an Affects Desolid, Any Kind of Desolid advantage in the first place. My instinct is no.

[Metaphysician]

Invulnerability to a Nuke can be had for 40 active points. No problem. :)

Destroyer is looking tougher all the time ...

*sigh*

No, he does *not* have the Desolid cheese, because he's equally invulnerable to everything else.

[Metaphysician]

Actually, I could see Doom dropping a nuke at his own feet. And afterwards we'd find that it was a robot doppelganger, or he boosted his defenses magically, or kept himself safe with a special device he built.

Doom or Destroyer sans any special precautions can't casually drop a nuke. But both sport huge VPP gadgeteering pools and are always with some extra boost to their abilities.

BTW, Destroyer did perform the equivalent of nuking himself in Detroit.

And it was an apparent suicide move, that required special preparations for him to pull off.

*Thanos doesn't need any special preparations, because the nuke just plain can't hurt him.*

[Metaphysician]

I always enjoy when a poster tells me I'm wrong just because I don't do something the same why the poster does. Our power levels have worked fine for us for 22 years. Obviously yours work fine for you too. Why don't we just leave it like that.

Because one power level is inaccurate.

If you wanna say "Dr Destroyer is the biggest villain in my setting," then thats perfectly accurate and fine.

When you say "Dr Destroyer fills the Thanos role in my setting," you are setting up a comparison that can be factually tested. . . and disproven.

[Metaphysician]

I think the big lack of reading comprehension falls at your feet in this case. SleepyDrug pretty clearly said that Destroyer -- not Doom -- had Thanos's power level.

And I'm saying that *Destroyer* isn't at Thanos' power level either. He's not even close.

[Metaphysician]

When you look at the power levels of the Champions Universe "Thanos-type" characters such as "The Dragon Incarnate" you see a villain with 24d6 attack in a vpp, 6 speed, 30 defense, 110 stun you see a very tough character. The Dragon Bound has more attack but less speed and no defense. Compare that to Dr. Destroyer with his 30d6, 8 speed, 40 defense, damage reduction, and 100 stun. Which one is the real "Thanos-type" threat? :)

Neither.

Dr Destroyer is a scientific genius in a suit of powered armor that can't even ignore a nuke.

The Dragon is a completely non-physical entity for whom physical combat is utterly meaningless; hence the relatively low stats.

Edit: or to put it another way- Dr Destroyer is nearly a Thanos level threat in the same way that Dr Octopus is more nearly a Galactus level threat than Turk.

[OddHat]

*sigh*

No, he does *not* have the Desolid cheese, because he's equally invulnerable to everything else.

So maybe the GM is hand-waving it? Many levels in DCV with completely invisible power effects, plus Desolidification with Invisible power Effects and a trigger (maybe in a MP to save points), and a nice VPP for offensive powers so the Affects Solid World can be used at need ... and there's also EDM and a bunch of transdimensional powers, including full spectrum Images; that's quite cheap. ;)

Actually I partially agree with your point; however, you can simulate an amazing number of "cosmic" effect within the rules even at quite low point totals; I do not agree that this automatically constitutes "cheese", though it is unbalancing if not under the GM's control. ;)

[Kristopher]

Actually, yours and SleepyDrug's reading comprehension is what rolled an 18 in this case.

Metaphysician is saying that neither Doctor Destroyer nor Doom have Thanos' power level.

Yeah. I caught that.

So what?

[Kristopher]

And I'm saying that *Destroyer* isn't at Thanos' power level either. He's not even close.

Given the stats we have for him, he certainly fulfils the same role in the CU that a Thanos or Darkseid would. He can mortally wound most of the characters in one or two blows, survive the nastiest attacks they can hope to throw at him, and has resources beyond those of anyone else on earth (not to mention beyond any logical analysis...but that's another gripe).

As for the "nuke at his feet" example...sounds like a moment of hackitis.

[Metaphysician]

Given the stats we have for him, he certainly fulfils the same role in the CU that a Thanos or Darkseid would. He can mortally wound most of the characters in one or two blows, survive the nastiest attacks they can hope to throw at him, and has resources beyond those of anyone else on earth (not to mention beyond any logical analysis...but that's another gripe).

THATS BECAUSE THE LISTED CHARACTERS ARE THEMSELVES EXCESSIVELY LOW LEVEL!!

*sigh*

If you pitted Dr Doom versus the X-Men at the beginning of their career, plus the beginning New Warriors, plus a mixed street level squad, he would effortlessly trash them, too.

That is the nearest equivalent to any fight between Dr Destroyer and 95% of the published heroes.


As for the "nuke at his feet" example...sounds like a moment of hackitis.

His battle with Drax blew up the planet they were on in his very first appearance. He's duked it out with Odin. He's travelled through dimensions that completely warp the laws of reality, and survived being so warped.

In damn near every appearance he's had, he's at a level that makes nukes look insignificant.

[Jhamin]

OK guys, I think we are talking past each other here.

If I am understanding Metaphysician right, he is saying that according to benchmarks like surviving a nuke or cracking a planet (which Thanos can and Dr. D can't) there is a clear disparity in power level.

Others (including me) are arguing that according to benchmarks like killing poweful heroes in only 1-3 shots and duking it out with cosmic entities, both are able to do it in their respective universes and occupy similar places in the "pecking order" of their respective continuities.

Different campaigns (and comic book worlds) work under different rules with different values. In some, Thor does 25D6 and Ripper is a whuss next to him. In others they can have a good fight because their concepts involve them both being incredibly strong combat machines of the highest magnitude.
In some campaigns Nukes kill anything, in others they are thrown around liberally to show how uber everyone is.

Despite what anyone may think, both are equally valid approaches.

Arguing that a character from one world is or is not equivalent to one from another is pointless as assumptions differ between those worlds (and over time within those worlds), often in subtle ways.

I was origionally stating that Thanos and Dr. Destroyer had alot in common because they fill similar roles in the power pecking order, not because I thought that had the same DCV and active point values.

[Kristopher]

THATS BECAUSE THE LISTED CHARACTERS ARE THEMSELVES EXCESSIVELY LOW LEVEL!!

*sigh*

If you pitted Dr Doom versus the X-Men at the beginning of their career, plus the beginning New Warriors, plus a mixed street level squad, he would effortlessly trash them, too.

That is the nearest equivalent to any fight between Dr Destroyer and 95% of the published heroes.


In other words, the scale in the CU is all messed up.

[jackalope]

Others (including me) are arguing that according to benchmarks like killing poweful heroes in only 1-3 shots and duking it out with cosmic entities, both are able to do it in their respective universes and occupy similar places in the "pecking order" of their respective continuities.

Um. No, not even.

Doctor Doom and Doctor Destroyer occupy similar places in the "pecking order" of their respective continuities. Doctor Destroyer and Thanos have, like, next to nothing in common. Thanos is several orders of magnitude more powerful than Destroyer. Thanos is Galactus power-scale. Characters at Thanos's level in the "pecking order" eat characters like Destroyer for breakfast. Istvatha V'han lives in the same neighborhood as Thanos, but even she would be scared of him. No, really, Thanos is on the power level that villains like Destroyer offer to join forces with the heroes to defeat them.

Destroyer is a normal human with fantastic science skills in power armor bent on world domination. That's freaking Doctor Doom! He's even got the twisted moral compass that makes him seem almost sympathetic at times, like you almost believe that he really does have the best intentions for the world after he conquers it - the same moral sense that allows him to team up with heroes against a threat like V'han. Give Destroyer his own country (such as I have in my campaign, the small African nation of Mwangamiziland (Swahili, meaning "Destroyerland")), and he is Doctor Doom.

Though, I would think the name alone would be a dead giveaway.

[Kristopher]

Um. No, not even.

Doctor Doom and Doctor Destroyer occupy similar places in the "pecking order" of their respective continuities. Doctor Destroyer and Thanos have, like, next to nothing in common. Thanos is several orders of magnitude more powerful than Destroyer. Thanos is Galactus power-scale. Characters at Thanos's level in the "pecking order" eat characters like Destroyer for breakfast. Istvatha V'han lives in the same neighborhood as Thanos, but even she would be scared of him. No, really, Thanos is on the power level that villains like Destroyer offer to join forces with the heroes to defeat them.

Destroyer is a normal human with fantastic science skills in power armor bent on world domination. That's freaking Doctor Doom! He's even got the twisted moral compass that makes him seem almost sympathetic at times, like you almost believe that he really does have the best intentions for the world after he conquers it - the same moral sense that allows him to team up with heroes against a threat like V'han. Give Destroyer his own country (such as I have in my campaign, the small African nation of Mwangamiziland (Swahili, meaning "Destroyerland")), and he is Doctor Doom.

Though, I would think the name alone would be a dead giveaway.

Dr D is supposed to be the Doom-analogue , I suppose, just based on the name.

But, IMO, he's not on the right spot on the scale to occupy that role in the CU. He's overpowered. As was mentioned, he can kill most characters easily and casually.

He also doesn't occupy the same space morally. Given the choice between Dr Destroyer and Istvatha V'han, I'd side with Isvatha every single time. Destroyer is a monster.

[jackalope]

But, IMO, he's not on the right spot on the scale to occupy that role in the CU. He's overpowered. As was mentioned, he can kill most characters easily and casually.

So could Doom, if it weren't for that pesky Comics Code Authority holding him back all those years. If Doom appears weaker than Destroyer, it is because the GM's over at Marvel fudge die rolls in favor of the players all the time.


He also doesn't occupy the same space morally. Given the choice between Dr Destroyer and Istvatha V'han, I'd side with Isvatha every single time. Destroyer is a monster.

What, and Doom isn't?

[assault]

As far as Doom goes: he seems to have experienced significant escalation in power levels over the years.

In his first appearance one of his robots was fairly offhandedly shredded by the FF, while he himself ran (flew) away rather than fight. And at that point there was no particularly good reason to consider the FF as being especially powerful.

In fact, Doom's relative lack of power was supported by his desire to find artifacts that would make him more powerful!

Of course he had a time machine and other mastermind toys, but his _personal_ power level didn't seem that over the top.

[Teflon Billy]

As far as Doom goes: he seems to have experienced significant escalation in power levels over the years.

In his first appearance one of his robots was fairly offhandedly shredded by the FF, while he himself ran (flew) away rather than fight. And at that point there was no particularly good reason to consider the FF as being especially powerful.

In fact, Doom's relative lack of power was supported by his desire to find artifacts that would make him more powerful!

Of course he had a time machine and other mastermind toys, but his _personal_ power level didn't seem that over the top.How recently are you talking about with regards to Doom's power escalation?

Because I remember reading the original Infinite Gauntlet series and Doom had the Silver Surfer very scared when Doom caught SS at a weakened moment. This would be around 1990 for the this series. The way many people talk about the Silver Surfer, making him out to be akin to a space god in power, this puts Doom's personal powers at quite a high level of lethality if SS was as scared as the artist drew him.

I think another thing people are ignoring with regards to Doom is that while, yes, Doom is technologically weaker than Destroyer (energy blasts, suit driven attack powers, etc...) Doom more than makes up for it IMO in the arcane realm and I could easily see Doom smiting Destroyer with a magical attack that Destroyer's Suit would have no defense against.

TB

[assault]

How recently are you talking about with regards to Doom's power escalation?


July 1962. :)

I haven't been reading the FF since the 80s. I've got into Ultimate FF recently, though. It's not the original stuff, but it's not horrible either.

[Teflon Billy]

July 1962. :)

I haven't been reading the FF since the 80s. I've got into Ultimate FF recently, though. It's not the original stuff, but it's not horrible either.
I have to say I like UFF quite a lot. I've got the entire series so far. I'm not sure if I like what they've done with Doom (back story AND powers) but the rest of it is quite nice.

But, back to Doom. What were Doom's Arcane powers like back then?

Because as of now, from what I've read (please, if someone can elaborate further or give an opposing view I welcome their input) Doom could easily challenge Dr. Strange in a few more years of study.

TB

[assault]

But, back to Doom. What were Doom's Arcane powers like back then?


I'm not sure, but the gems he was trying to get hold of in his first appearance were magical, and would have made him really tough. He had been able to find out that they existed and presumably was a good enough wizard to be able to use them, if anything beyond having them in his possession was necessary. This doesn't necessarily imply very much.

On the other hand, he had managed to build a time machine. He was certainly no slouch as a scientist.

[Metaphysician]

OK guys, I think we are talking past each other here.

If I am understanding Metaphysician right, he is saying that according to benchmarks like surviving a nuke or cracking a planet (which Thanos can and Dr. D can't) there is a clear disparity in power level.

Others (including me) are arguing that according to benchmarks like killing poweful heroes in only 1-3 shots and duking it out with cosmic entities, both are able to do it in their respective universes and occupy similar places in the "pecking order" of their respective continuities.

Different campaigns (and comic book worlds) work under different rules with different values. In some, Thor does 25D6 and Ripper is a whuss next to him. In others they can have a good fight because their concepts involve them both being incredibly strong combat machines of the highest magnitude.
In some campaigns Nukes kill anything, in others they are thrown around liberally to show how uber everyone is.

Despite what anyone may think, both are equally valid approaches.

The problem here is that the comparison is still squicky. Thanos fills a different role in the Marvel U ( cosmic servant of even more cosmic powers ) than Dr Destroyer ( who is, at heart, basically 'just' a world conqueror ).


Arguing that a character from one world is or is not equivalent to one from another is pointless as assumptions differ between those worlds (and over time within those worlds), often in subtle ways.

I was origionally stating that Thanos and Dr. Destroyer had alot in common because they fill similar roles in the power pecking order, not because I thought that had the same DCV and active point values.

Except that Dr Destroyer is *not* in the same place in the pecking order. Tyrannon outpowers him considerably, as does Istvatha.

This is the trouble that happens when people use sliding, as opposed to absolute, reference scales.

[Metaphysician]

In other words, the scale in the CU is all messed up.

Bingo.

Alot of the complaints about "overblown" villains in the CU ultimately derive from the assumption that heroes will be at or around 350 points.

Whereas alot of the villain archetypes tapped for the major villains are archetypes that all but assume that the heroes opposing them *won't* be beginning level.

[Metaphysician]

Um. No, not even.

Doctor Doom and Doctor Destroyer occupy similar places in the "pecking order" of their respective continuities. Doctor Destroyer and Thanos have, like, next to nothing in common. Thanos is several orders of magnitude more powerful than Destroyer. Thanos is Galactus power-scale. Characters at Thanos's level in the "pecking order" eat characters like Destroyer for breakfast. Istvatha V'han lives in the same neighborhood as Thanos, but even she would be scared of him. No, really, Thanos is on the power level that villains like Destroyer offer to join forces with the heroes to defeat them.

Destroyer is a normal human with fantastic science skills in power armor bent on world domination. That's freaking Doctor Doom! He's even got the twisted moral compass that makes him seem almost sympathetic at times, like you almost believe that he really does have the best intentions for the world after he conquers it - the same moral sense that allows him to team up with heroes against a threat like V'han. Give Destroyer his own country (such as I have in my campaign, the small African nation of Mwangamiziland (Swahili, meaning "Destroyerland")), and he is Doctor Doom.

Though, I would think the name alone would be a dead giveaway.

Actually, I disagree on him bearing moral simularities to Doom. Destroyer has no discernable redeeming values. I would consider V'Han to be the lesser evil than him, by a long shot.

[Metaphysician]

Dr D is supposed to be the Doom-analogue , I suppose, just based on the name.

But, IMO, he's not on the right spot on the scale to occupy that role in the CU. He's overpowered. As was mentioned, he can kill most characters easily and casually.

He also doesn't occupy the same space morally. Given the choice between Dr Destroyer and Istvatha V'han, I'd side with Isvatha every single time. Destroyer is a monster.

Doom can kill 350 point equivalents easy, too.

The reason he does not regularly kill most of his opponents is that *he does not regularly fight 350 point heroes.*

[Eosin]

I want to pipe up and say "My daddy is tougher than your daddy!" :)

I must be sorta fuzzy on Thanos - judging by his origin and opponents (in the 80's before the whole Infinty Game) he was a Silver Surfer level character. A whackin bad monkey but still in the same league with Walter Simonson's Thor.

I think Destroyer...(Yeap, Destroyer goota make sure I don't mix those two up) is meant a Doom derivation but as written is a 100% bad monkey....upto the level of the World Breakers - he just ain't bought that slot in his MPP yet.

Everyones scales, sliding or absolute are gonna have variances in them, if for no other reason than some dork wrote someone exploding nuclear bombs at their feet to clear riff raff or Thor whacking one of the Celestials or Hulk holding up a mountain range or the Flash Force or what ever whacked-on-scooby-snack my hero is tougher than your hero twinky story that provides someone-somewhere PROOF that X is more powerful than Y.

Now Darksied - he is a world cracker. Omega-Beams away! :bmk:


Now, on to the topic of this topic.....

I would like to see a good compilation of who is equitable to who from other universes.

Spiderman in Champions is nigh unstoppable IMO and I would like to see his clone (Mongoose maybe?).

Here is who I think is who -

Harbinger = Batman with a gun only meaner.
Nighthawk = Nightwind
Mechanon = Ultron but weaker.
Minutmen = Sentinals
PRIMUS = Shield
Golden Avenger = Cap with USAgents morality
VIPER = Hydra
Vipra = Superman clone but evil and female.

Geez, I guess I should buy more Supers stuff cause that is all that I can think of.

[Madstone]

As far as Doom goes: he seems to have experienced significant escalation in power levels over the years.

In his first appearance one of his robots was fairly offhandedly shredded by the FF, while he himself ran (flew) away rather than fight. And at that point there was no particularly good reason to consider the FF as being especially powerful...

To be fair, All characters evolve and escalate. The FF have escalated in power as well. At the time of Doom's first appearance, Ben could lift around 5-10 tons, Johnny could only flame on for a couple minutes before exhausting his flame, Sue had no force fields, and Reed's inventions weren't dimension spanning yet. Compare early Thor, Iron Man, Cyclops, Iceman, etc. (And we haven't even touched Superman or Batman!) Doom's evolution is hardly unique or unwarranted.

[jackalope]

Actually, I disagree on him bearing moral simularities to Doom. Destroyer has no discernable redeeming values. I would consider V'Han to be the lesser evil than him, by a long shot.

To be honest, I don't know where people are getting that from. I mean, Destroyer is however a GM runs him, and his write-up doesn't suggest he is signifigantly more evil than Doom. Doom is a vicious and ruthless tyrant who kills without compunction, brutalizes his people, abuses children (anyone remember Kristoff, Doom's cloned son, and the sheer hell Doom put him through?), etc. In Destroyer's write-up it mentions that he enjoys playing mind-games with his foes, as does Doom.

What is it that makes Destroyer so much worse than Doom, other than the lack of Comics Code Authority (which, btw, is the only reason Doom doesn't have a highly visible death count)?

And while V'Han may be less evil than Destroyer, I don't see what that has to do with the Destroyer/Doom comparison, unless you wish to argue than Doom is less evil than V'han, which he is not.

[Kristopher]

Doom can kill 350 point equivalents easy, too.

The reason he does not regularly kill most of his opponents is that *he does not regularly fight 350 point heroes.*

When I said Destroyer can mortally wound most characters with 1 or 2 hits, I meant most characters -- not just the 350 pt characters.

[Kristopher]

To be honest, I don't know where people are getting that from. I mean, Destroyer is however a GM runs him, and his write-up doesn't suggest he is signifigantly more evil than Doom. Doom is a vicious and ruthless tyrant who kills without compunction, brutalizes his people, abuses children (anyone remember Kristoff, Doom's cloned son, and the sheer hell Doom put him through?), etc. In Destroyer's write-up it mentions that he enjoys playing mind-games with his foes, as does Doom.

What is it that makes Destroyer so much worse than Doom, other than the lack of Comics Code Authority (which, btw, is the only reason Doom doesn't have a highly visible death count)?

And while V'Han may be less evil than Destroyer, I don't see what that has to do with the Destroyer/Doom comparison, unless you wish to argue than Doom is less evil than V'han, which he is not.

Maybe people's opinions of Destroyer are tainted by his Red Skull-like origin.

[The Watcher]

Doom has actually demonstrated noblese oblige, a code of honor, and other redeeming qualities. While he rules Latveria with an iron fist, he also actually seems to care for the general well-being of his subjects as well.

Doom actually cares about being a man of his word, rather than merely maintaining the pretense of doing so the way Destroyer does.

Morally, Doom seems to have more in common with V'han than Doctor Destroyer.

[tiger]

I think Dr. Destroyer is more evil than Dr. Doom. They have different agendas and personalities. Dr. Destroyer shows little regard for human life; in fact most of his schemes seem to involve mass-casualties. He killed 60,000 people in Detroit just so he could go into hiding. I don't envision Dr. Doom doing the same thing. That doesn't mean that Dr. Doom isn't cruel and iron-fisted, but he isn't as cold-blooded as Dr. Destroyer.

I think the two doctors in question are fairly even. Both can fight groups of heroes single-handedly and win. Doom has beaten the FF several times over the years, they just refuse to stay that way. Destroy has beaten groups as well. Just read over the CU timeline to see which ones.

Both the doctors like to sit back and watch plans slowly reveal itself as well. I will admit the Dr Destroy seems to enjoy getting his hands dirty more than Dr. Doom. Overal I think both work well as world threating vilians

[ParitySoul]

Depends on how you play Destroyer. In my games he's always this mysterious figure and his minions are what give us the most headaches. If he ever showed up we would generaly run. Way scarrier than Doom.