Millenium City

[keithcurtis]

I got it! I got it!

I'd post a critique, but I have to read it first. I just wanted to post to say I got it.

Keith "I got it!" Curtis

PS. Love the cover.

[Hermit]

Lucky Bastage !
:D
I'm Hex-Man green with envy

[Alibear]

Hey Keith,

I'm supposed to be in there somewhere, could you look me up and see if I am or do I need to go round and pummel the Caped Chameleon some.

Unleash the Tartan terror. Mwuhahaha!!!!

[Monolith]

Originally posted by keithcurtis
I got it! I got it!

I'd post a critique, but I have to read it first. I just wanted to post to say I got it.

Keith "I got it!" Curtis

PS. Love the cover.
Why is it that I always have to say "I Hate You" to someone on these message boards each month, after a new product comes out? :)

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Monolith
Why is it that I always have to say "I Hate You" to someone on these message boards each month, after a new product comes out? :)

You might want to seek professional help for that. ;)

BTW Congrats, Keith. You must be among the first to be so blessed. Looking forward to your review.:)

[Blue]

Review? Bah! I'm not waiting for any review. I'm dispatching a team to Kieth's house right now to retrieve the book. They've been briefed in the ways of Kieth. They know about his weakness for cheese-based snacks, his susceptibility to the piercing screams of nagging women, and we've informed his hunteds so that they can keep him busy. The overdue library book collection team and the ministry of funny walks were both very interested to hear about his location and will be there soon, though the ministry will be there in a very roundabout way. That book will soon be mine!

[Uncle Shecky]

Originally posted by Blue
Review? Bah! I'm not waiting for any review. I'm dispatching a team to Kieth's house right now to retrieve the book. They've been briefed in the ways of Kieth. They know about his weakness for cheese-based snacks, his susceptibility to the piercing screams of nagging women, and we've informed his hunteds so that they can keep him busy. The overdue library book collection team and the ministry of funny walks were both very interested to hear about his location and will be there soon, though the ministry will be there in a very roundabout way. That book will soon be mine!

ROFL :D

Isn't it weird that I have exactly the same disadvantages? (I'll bet I'm not the only one.) That lousy ministry of funny hats won't leave anyone alone...

[Blue]

If you had Millenium City I'd dispatch a team of Cheese-toting, Nagging women librarians to your house too! I can always use a spare copy.

And don't tell him that the Spanish Inquisition is coming. I don't want him to expect that.

[Thag13]

I am sooo behind.

I just got Terrian Empire last nite.

Its a great book to

I would be interested to hear about Millenium city

[Killer Shrike]

Grrrr......

Me WANT mine now!

[keithcurtis]

No time to say much now, but suffice to say that page 52 will generate more board traffic than any other page in a DoJ product. And whose hands are those committing the heinous act? My guess: Steve Long's. :)

Keith "Mr. Cryptic" Curtis

[Hermit]

Called my local gaming stores... one of them informs me they are already sold out. The other doesn't have them yet...as it's a chain, I think one of them is pulling my leg just to get rid of me. *Sighs*

[death tribble]

It is not even out in England yet.

[Ben Seeman]

Originally posted by Alibear
Hey Keith,

I'm supposed to be in there somewhere, could you look me up and see if I am or do I need to go round and pummel the Caped Chameleon some.

Unleash the Tartan terror. Mwuhahaha!!!!

Why would you need to pummel the Caped Chameleon? He had absolutely nothing to do with the production of that book except for playtesting.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Ben Seeman
Why would you need to pummel the Caped Chameleon? He had absolutely nothing to do with the production of that book except for playtesting.

Well, most folks you can only beat black and blue, but Chameleons are more versetile, you can beat them mauve, vermillion, badge... there's just so many options. :)

[Ben Seeman]

Originally posted by Hermit
Well, most folks you can only beat black and blue, but Chameleons are more versetile, you can beat them mauve, vermillion, badge... there's just so many options. :)

Well, yeah, but what does that have to do with whether or not Alibear is in the book or not? And what does the Caped one have to do with it? And why is he being left to blame for something that is not his fault?

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Ben Seeman
Well, yeah, but what does that have to do with whether or not Alibear is in the book or not? And what does the Caped one have to do with it? And why is he being left to blame for something that is not his fault?
I think it's just Alibear wants a scapegoat, and he's afraid of tangling with Heroman :)

[Balok]

Originally posted by Hermit
I think it's just Alibear wants a scapegoat, and he's afraid of tangling with Heroman :)

Heroman is easily dealt with! Just kidnap his twin brother, Daarren Watts, and he won't come anywhere near you. Why, I used this very scheme last week, and I'd have gotten away with it if someone in my very own headquarters hadn't blasted me unconscious. I need to hire more loyal henchmen.

[Hermit]

Hey, how much is Millennium City costing btw?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Hermit
Hey, how much is Millennium City costing btw?
$21.99 retail.

The link here will give you an idea:

www.frpgames.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1977

[Hermit]

Thanks. I may have to order it Online yet.

[Peregrine]

Originally posted by keithcurtis
No time to say much now, but suffice to say that page 52 will generate more board traffic than any other page in a DoJ product. And whose hands are those committing the heinous act? My guess: Steve Long's. :)

Keith "Mr. Cryptic" Curtis

As I've only seen the playtest, I have to ask - that wouldn't be the CU Champions comic (and the characters featured therein), would it?

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Peregrine
As I've only seen the playtest, I have to ask - that wouldn't be the CU Champions comic (and the characters featured therein), would it?

It's terrible, mate.

Keith "Close enough" Curtis

[Alibear]

Originally posted by Ben Seeman
Why would you need to pummel the Caped Chameleon? He had absolutely nothing to do with the production of that book except for playtesting.

Everybody knows the Caped Chameleons susceptability to tartan. He would be an easy target for my kilted minions, mwuhahaha.

Oh and I've seen pictures of Darren and he looks tougher than you.:D

[Nato]

Woot! I got my copy in the mail today today. I've been reading the playtest copy for a while and it's been a fun read. Good work Darren. Lot's of great work by my fellow artists too. I think a lot of folks will enjoy this book.

Hey Keith, I dug your pic in the beginning of the book with the guy panning for gold. Nice job.

[Peregrine]

Originally posted by keithcurtis
It's terrible, mate.

Keith "Close enough" Curtis

Thought so. :)

Must... resist... spoiler...

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Nato
Woot! I got my copy in the mail today today. I've been reading the playtest copy for a while and it's been a fun read. Good work Darren. Lot's of great work by my fellow artists too. I think a lot of folks will enjoy this book.

Hey Keith, I dug your pic in the beginning of the book with the guy panning for gold. Nice job.

Thanks! I have to admit, everytime I open up a comp copy of a new book, my joy at seeing my stuff in print is always tempered by awe and envy of everybody else in the book.

Keith "Why could't <i>I</i> have done that?" Curtis

[Rechan]

Where's the best place to order it online?

[Blue]

Send youre checks to me! I'm hoarding copies to drive the price up.

Actually reading a copy right now...no wait, I'm typing now... but a second after I say that again I will actually be reading it. Here goes.

I'm reading a copy right now...

[Nato]

Originally posted by keithcurtis
Thanks! I have to admit, everytime I open up a comp copy of a new book, my joy at seeing my stuff in print is always tempered by awe and envy of everybody else in the book.

Keith "Why could't <i>I</i> have done that?" Curtis

Dude, I feel the same way. Glad I ain't the only one. :) I console myself in the fact that I can use that as motivation to get better and improve my own artwork.

[Blue]

First, let me both say Thanks for the great book and apologize for the fact that I'm not using it as a whole. I've put a lot of time into my own city and will continue to use it. Having said that, there's lots of goodness here for someone looking to disassemble and transplant.

Turns out I can use all of the locations, many of the NPCs, the villains, the Police Department, some of the mafia. The districts are analogous to ones I have in my city, so there are things there I can use. The only thing that gets left behind with this approach is some of the rich history, which is well written but inappropriate to my very youthful city without such a storied past.

Great book. I'm trying to think of things it could have used... and off the top of my head, I can't think of anything.

Nice job :D Very useful.

Looking forward to the UNTIL DB too. Then maybe I can get my lazy heroes in gear.

[Samurai007]

Am I the only one to have noticed the highly ironic last line of page 2, under "A word or two of appreciation"? It says, quote,

"We'd like to thank the Digital Hero playtesters and testreaders who reviewed the Millenium City manuscript. Their help spotting typos,"

.... Yep, that's where it ends! Guess the last line or 2 was accidently cut off. Or maybe it was an intentional joke? Either way, I laughed when I saw it!

[Nato]

Yes, I thought that was funny myself.

Hey, check out the street names on the city map. There's some cool street names.I particulary like the road that the college is on, Barnes Blvd.

Oh, that reminds me. Am I going crazy or is the key missing some location numbers on it?

[Hermit]

Got it on order...AND CKC...

I drool with antici....pation.
:)

[lemming]

Originally posted by Nato
Yes, I thought that was funny myself.

Hey, check out the street names on the city map. There's some cool street names.I particulary like the road that the college is on, Barnes Blvd.

I wonder where Barnes came from? The main developer of Heromaker was Steve Barnes.

[Lord Liaden]

Well, "Nato" is actually Nate Barnes, who has done artwork for HERO, so that just might be the connection he was hinting at. ;)

[Nato]

My identity is finally revealed!

[lemming]

Originally posted by Nato
My identity is finally revealed!
That makes more sense since Steve hasn't done anything with Hero Games for a bit.

[Steve Long]

Virtually all the major roads in MC are named after Hero artists, or other notables. Just my little tip of the hat! ;)

[Samurai007]

...and here I was thinking it was named after Bucky Barnes, Cap's sidekick... ;)

[CleverName]

Arrgh!

Crapola, my FLGS says its not even at his distributors yet!!!!

[BishopofB&W]

Originally posted by keithcurtis
No time to say much now, but suffice to say that page 52 will generate more board traffic than any other page in a DoJ product. And whose hands are those committing the heinous act? My guess: Steve Long's. :)

Keith "Mr. Cryptic" Curtis

:( I couldn't believe it when I saw that. Like a lot of people, I thought Seeker was a somewhat goofy take on a martial artist. But he grew on me when I read Watchers of the Dragon. Seeker turned out to be a pretty thoughtful person who carried on the tradition of laughing at danger to avoid being overwhelmed by the seriousness of a situation. Seeker in WotD is a testament to how The Ultimate Martial Artist can be used to flesh out and expand an otherwise bland set of powers and skills.
I don't mean to jump on a soapbox, but seeing the expression on Seeker's face reminded me of Warren Ellis' trashing of The Avengers in The Authority. Come on. If you write for a genre you hate and plan on slamming it, at least do it with some class! But I digress...
Seeker should either be written out of the official Champions Universe and never be mentioned again or allowed to die with dignity.

[Nato]

Seeker is not actually a part of the Champions Universe this time around as I'm sure you are aware. He is now only mentioned as a ficticous character in a Champions comic book, which is mainly an inside joke for longtime Hero fans. I wouldn't take it as a jab at Seeker, or take it too seriously for that matter.
:)

[Blue]

...besides, how many times have you seen a comic book that proclaimed the death of it's star on the cover, but inside something else took place. Of course it doesn't really say "death" on the cover now does it?

[Peregrine]

Two words: Seeker Lives!

OK, he's been 'reduced' to an inside joke. But I have WotD, and while I haven't looked closely, I'll bet that minimal changes would be necessary to upgrade him to 5th. (Adding some Combat Luck is the first thing that comes to mind.) So, in my campaign, Seeker continues his quest for the Truth.

[Nato]

Heh, how do we even KNOW that the man being strangled is Seeker? We just assume. Maybe those hands belong to SEEKER!?! Maybe he is fated to become a ruthless strangler!

[BishopofB&W]

Originally posted by Nato
Heh, how do we even KNOW that the man being strangled is Seeker? We just assume. Maybe those hands belong to SEEKER!?! Maybe he is fated to become a ruthless strangler!

:) Don't get me wrong. I've enjoyed the numerous Seeker parodies posted on the boards over the years. It's just that I don't associate a character like him with the gritty(often an excuse for mindless sadism), modern graphic novel. My first thought on seeing that fake cover was that Seeker was getting the Authority treatment. I'm glad that's not the case.

BTW, I thought the panoramic artwork in The Authority was wonderful and I enjoyed the Transmetropolitan and Planetary collections I've read so I'm not just bashing Warren Ellis!:D

[Nato]

Dude, want to read something down right bizarre? Check out Ellis' "Bad World" books. Whacky.

[Max Callahan]

At risk of draging this thread off topic I'll point out that the 'Avengers" appearance in Authority was after Waren Ellis left the book. (Now as to Ellis killing off the Justice Leauge in Stormwatch, Planetary, and then again in Planetary thats another story).

[TechnoViking]

Originally posted by CleverName
Arrgh!

Crapola, my FLGS says its not even at his distributors yet!!!!
I'm shocked. It seemed the Georgia distributors did a decent job getting Hero stuff quickly.

Mike

[TheEmerged]

Well, given that my FLGS is neither F nor L and just barely G, looks like I'm going to have to go the online route again. Hopefully I don't have the same misadventures this time I did with FREd...

[Eric Lofgren]

Just thought I'd chime in and say how much I enjoyed working on this book. Overall, it turned out very impressive. Initially, my personal fave was Ninja Hero, but now after seeing this one, it makes it tough to decide. Of course, this decision will surely change again, so I'd best be prepared :D

Anyway, I look forward to any oppurtunity to do more for Hero Games. They are a great company to work for and they have a pretty cool audience :)


Eric Lofgren

[Killer Shrike]

Wow. I picked up MC on the way home from work yesterday and read it straight thru to the end (finishing up at 3am {yawns, rubs eyes, gropes for coffee}).

All in all, a very satisfying read. Not so dense as to be a) imposing or b) restrictive, but detailed enough to get the creative juices flowing and offer a solid framework for adventure. I'd give it a 4.5 of 5 overall.

I particularly liked all the little in jokes, particularly the send up to Seeker (the hackneyed background crack left me chuckling), and then flipping a few more pages and running across the cover illo of Seeker getting choked out was really amusing, although I think it would have been funnier if it was run in-line with the text mentioning him instead of separated.

There are only a few grouses, and they are mostly of a conceptual nature.

The 1 thing that really bothers me about MC is that the city itself is so utopian. There just doesn’t seem to be much room for criminal activities. With the chipped cars making it impossible to get around by car in the pursuit of unlawful ends, the access to the city so heavily controlled, and the preponderance of social factors discouraging crime (such as the density of the superhuman population, upscale neighborhoods, and a well equipped police force) it seems to rule out a lot of story angles, relegating quite a bit of action to the suburbs and surrounding municipalities rather than Millennium City itself. Basically, MC is a modern day fortress. Insidious plots are more likely than direct confrontation in the city itself unless the antagonist is grossly powerful. This is friendly to the criminal organizations such as PSI and VIPER, but less friendly to the average super villain.

The second thing that Im not crazy about is that the iconic supers of the Champions Universe are in Millennium City, and more importantly are 350 point characters give or take. What does that mean to my PC group if I want to base the story in MC? Are the Champions still around? Does the city need 2 similarly sized and powered groups? How does that affect the status quo since the Champs are pretty embedded in the city infrastructure? Are they rivals, in which case how to get over the fact that Defender and Witchcraft particularly are such straight arrows (I mean, Defender is so true-blue and even handed that to be a serious actual rival (as opposed to a friendly rivalry) the PCs would have to be at least slightly flawed in their heroism)? Do they not exist at all, leaving a vacuum for the PCs to fill? Something in between? I.e., did they exist but disbanded or died 2 years ago? Disappeared mysteriously (and thus may return in the future)? If the Champs were 500+ pointer Avenger-level powerhouses they might conceivably coexist with the PCs in the same city, since they would a) be more wide ranging (perhaps even global) in their activities, leaving the day to day local hero-ing to the bush-leaguers (350 pointer PCs), or b) concerned with bigger threats. However, all of the possible solutions aside from direct coexistence require a departure from the cannon of the new CU. I don’t have any issues with this myself, but altering such a core element of the cannon can have a lot of consequences; it makes it a chore to censor new material to retcon/omit their presence, and more significantly places restrictions on shared GM's --other GMs would have to a) be informed of cannon alterations and b) abide by them and thus restrict their own storytelling options or ignore them invalidating yours. In short, I wish that the iconics had been handled a little differently.

However, those two gripes aside, its a fabulous product and lives up to the new standard that the DOJ has brought to the game. Those guys go to 11, no question.

[Blue]

That's interesting because the Utopian nature is what makes the sites easy to steal for my campaign, the home city being a utopia in retrograde to crime and dark forces.

Am I alone in almost always disregarding iconic heroes in campaign products? I mean, I know they are the pride and joy of the designers, who likely played them for many, many years, but I almost never use them in a campaign unless because the heroes want some kind of heroic rivals (which never happened). Generally I use the villains, but the heroes I ignore much the way that most people ignore the tournament characters that were always included in the back of the D&D modules.

[Tom McCarthy]

The Champions have always been a problem. Being sample starting characters and examples of character design, they are a touch generic and what few cool or unique things they do have become the norm (look how the character design of Seeker shaped the design of almost any martial artist created by a beginner new to 4th edition).

On the other hand, they are presented as iconic characters and the best of the superhero teams in the Champions Universe. If they're the big guns, why are they no more than a match for most beginning PCs? Does anyone believe the Justice Squadron and Sentinels are no more than 350 points? Heck, Darren's NPCs the fabulous Five were beyond the Champions in pure point totals in 1962, according to Digital Hero. 4th edition got around this by publishing the 400+ pointers in Champions Universe (4th ed) and revising the characters for Ultimate books.

On the other hand, I'm looking forward to Reality Storm, even though I know the Champions are flat out incapable of standing up to Dr. D and almost every Silver Age Sentinel outpoints nearly every Champion.

[Monolith]

I don't have a lot of time, but just to reply to Killer Shrike's comments:

I would imagine that a very large blackmarket exist in MC that does nothing but produces and sells Chip-Blockers. This technology would stop the transmission of the chip signal, and quite possibly even produce false images to confuse the police computer systems. That one simple step completely thwarts the police's ability to stop vehicular crimes.

I also think there is still plenty of crime in the city-proper being committed. You still have thieves and stick-up artists robbing convience stores. You still have car thieves stealing vehicles (but they are using more techie devices to do it now). You still have drug dealers sitting outside schools. You still have streetgangs, ect. You also still have Black Harlequin committing Joker-Like crimes. You have the Ultimates trying to rob banks. You still have criminals like Hazard doing what they need to do to accomplish their evil ends. Crime has not been stopped in MC. The MC police have taken more advanced steps to try and fight crime, but the crime still exists in all its normal forms.

As far as the Champions and a player's team having the same amount of character points? That does not bother me at all. At one time in the Marvel Universe you had the Avengers, the Defenders, and the Fantastic Four (all at about the same general power level) operating within Manhattan. At that same time you had 2-3 X-Men groups, a New Warriors group, and countless other independent heroes operating within the city.

Superheroes should only really interact if the GM wants them to. This is no different than the writer in the Fantastic Four not making mention of what the Avengers are doing, unless he plans on having the two teams work together on something. For the most part, just as in Marvel's Manhattan, the teams both work to solve crimes. While the Champions might be going after Anubis, the players might be trying to stop Holocaust. While the Champions are foiling a GRAB attempt, the players are finding a way to keep the Ultimates from their crime. While the Champions are working on an ARGENT plot to sell hi-tech weapons to the New Purple Gang, the players are putting down a VIPER scheme to create dimensional ribbons.

If you don't waste energy trying to justify it, and just run the game as you would see in a comic book, you realize that the NPC heroes are nothing more than storyboards. If you want to include them you can, but if you don't they can sit quietly in the background and never make a difference to the game.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Monolith: Yes, Im sure there are chippers that provide countermeasures, however much like satellite and cell phone chippers this is not a static affair. It’s a constant back and forth as authorities counter the countermeasures and vice versa, and back and forth. Chippers in real life get away with it because its a peripheral crime in the commercial sector that doesn’t see much enforcement, but in MC anti-chipping a car is much more of a municipal infringement and you can rest assured that cops will take more stringent measures to stop it.

Its not insurmountable, its just another level of complexity that needs to be considered. How did they villains make their get away? In their vehicle? Why couldn’t the authorities shut it down remotely? Because it was anti-chipped? OK, lets follow that lead -- where did they get the anti-chip? Lets track that down to a location and a person. Start nosing around the black chipmarket. Maybe trace it down to a seller. Do we prosecute all of these black marketeers as we go or do we stay focused on the real culprits and leave them to the tender mercy of the cops, or not report them at all? OK, assuming we collar the right guy, get him to talk. Where did he sell the chips at? Is it a place the villains are likely to return? Did he hear anything pertinent said in passing? Any other useful info? Assuming he did, follow up on that. Assuming he didn’t, what now? Etc etc etc....

It’s the sort of niggling detail that can pull a session off course. Now, if the intention is to provide an investigative style adventure then that’s all for the better, but if the intention was to have resolved-by-superhuman-capability style then you've failed at that because the PCs spend the session flailing around doing mundane police work. Further, if you didn’t see it coming and aren’t good at on-the-fly GMing, then you may have stepped all over it in your attempts to lay the rail in front of the train as the PC-express steams forward.

Of course, once it is established that, yeah yeah the bad guys can get their hands on blackchipped cars and its not worth pursuing because its a cold trail, then no big deal except that it begs the question why have the chips involved at all. They only restrict law-abiding citizens. Its like gun control; criminals can still get their hands on guns and restricting them only creates a market for illegal weapons that sell at a premium thus enriching/empowering the criminals selling them so that they can commit bigger crimes or establish themselves. Money can’t buy Justice, but it can buy an acquittal. This introduces a frustration point for the PCs and becomes a source of bitter humor. Why cant the cops stop Rico the Illegal Street Racer and his pink-slip posse? Duh, because they blackchip their cars and the cops aren’t equipped to handle high-speed pursuit because they are 'a thing of the past'. Enter the PCs! Woohoo! The superheroes can help the community out by putting a stop to adolescent thrill seekers with tricked out rice burners! No time for the likes of Grond, we have to stop teenies with too much time and money on their hands from ruining their lives by wrapping a car around a center divider at 100 mph! How exciting! Heroic, certainly; Superheroic.....maybe once, as a lead up to something more epic or as a 'character piece' showcasing a particular hero staying in touch with his roots and maintaining his 'street cred'.

Also, I just can’t believe that the American citizens of Detroit would not strenuously object to such an invasion of their privacy. Who really wants Big Brother to know everywhere they have driven for up to the last 10 years? Also, are the chip records admissible as evidence in court? I.e. can they be used to prove that a person was in an area at a certain time in say a robbery or murder investigation/trial? Habeas Chipus? Divorce proceedings? "We can place you outside the apartment of your mistress every Wednesday night for the last 6 months Mr. Williams. You might as well just sign the settlement and save yourself the embarrassment."

Its just one of those details that, IMO, raises more issues than it’s worth.


RE: Iconics: As far as running iconics, it depends on the game. In a full-blown supers game, its very tempting to use them because they are so intertwined with the story line usually. Further, supers are like Movie Stars in their high-profile exposure. They are part of the pop-culture of their setting. For example, if you don’t use the Champions at all, who takes Sapphires place? What about all the references to Witchcraft in the Mystic World sections? Do Harmon Industries go away? The more reclusive/odd ball heroes (like the other two Champions) are easier to drop of course but not completely without impact.

RE: Multiple teams in one city; NY/Manhattan: Yes and no. All of the teams you cite were not local heroes; they were all regional, global, or even multi-dimensional. They hung their hats in NYC, but they were actively superheroing all over the place. I don’t get the feeling that the Champions are quite as globetrotting. Granted, they've got the quin-jet wannabe, but still....At 350 points, the Champs would also have trouble going up against any of the listed teams except maybe the New Warriors (and even then, Firestar, Nova and Namorita were pretty powerful, Speedball was a massive loose cannon, Justice developed into a very durable TKer, and Rage was much more of a brick than Ironclad; Nightthrasher was questionable but the rest of the regulars were pretty hard core. Ok, maybe if you selected Nightthrasher, Turbo, early Marvel Boy vice Justice, Speedball before he learned a little control, and Hindsight Lad as the representative line up for the New Warriors, the Champions would win the day.

I know my players, and if the Champions are in the same town as them they are not going to be content to peacefully coexist. They will expect and attempt to engage in some level of interaction with them, whether friendly or not. I get the feeling that they would take it amiss if I removed the group entirely, as they in general like the iconics and subconsciously want something to serve as a yardstick in game, Im sure.

Its not a major issue, but it is something that requires some thought. Granted, it’s easy enough for me to say that the Champs are in some other city like NYC or Chicago, or even Philly. All are close enough geographically that if interaction is desired, it is feasible. What Ill prolly do though it add 100 to 150 points to the Champs and have them be 'the big leaguers', often gone fighting higher scale evils. They may even enter into a patronage of the PCs, glad to have someone they can trust to 'hold down the fort' as it were. This also gives the PCs something to aspire to 'one day, maybe Ill be good enough for the Champions!' or to resent 'we do all the grunt work, they swoop in at the last minute and get all the glory'.

[Monolith]

Killer Shrike, I think you are making a big deal out of something which is not that important. The chips in the cars are just part of the ambiance of the campaign world. You are looking at one small aspect of the campaign and trying to give it major signifigance. If the GM wants the badguys to get away, they have chips. If the GM does not want the badguys to get away, they don't. It's really just that simple. It's a small plot device within with a much greater whole.

A few example plots: #1: Cybermind uses all the vehicle chips to take control of the City's vehicles. #2: ARGENT is suppling the chips, but they have a new chip which is causing electronic disturbances within the city. The heroes must stop it. #3: The chips in the vehicles are secret bugging devices by PRIMUS/MARS/UNTIL/ARGENT/VIPER, ect and they are using the to get information for blackmail purposes. I can think of a dozen more instances where the chips can be used, but most of the time they are not important to the story.

As far as your players, if they cannot get along with other superheroes, then that is either a fault by you for constantly making the other teams adversarial, or its the fault of the players for not having any idea of what the comic book genre is basically about. At times the JLA and the JSA might clash, but for the most part each team respects the other. The same goes for the Avengers and the Fantastic Four. That's just part of the genre.

As to another point about multiple teams within the city, who says that your team might not be national, international, dimensional, or just local? That is really up to you and the players to decide. You are making an assumption that 350 point heroes are newbies who just crawled out of their diapers. I assume that some 350 point heroes are new, some are well-established, and some are veterans. Part of the reason the point totals for the game were raised was so that the players would have more begging options, allowing them to be something besides brand new heroes.

I believe you need to view the CU as you would any other comic book universe. Each major city has multiple teams, and each of those teams operates independantly within it's own little sphere. If the New Mutants and the New Warriors can both survive within New York, then the Champions and the "Defenders" can survive within Millennium City.

Besides, look at it this way, be thankful your game is not in New York. There are 4 established superhero teams in that CU city. :)

[Nato]

I'd actually like to thank you both for the great ideas on how to use the chips in stories! Good ideas.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Monolith
Killer Shrike, I think you are making a big deal out of something which is not that important. The chips in the cars are just part of the ambiance of the campaign world. You are looking at one small aspect of the campaign and trying to give it major signifigance. If the GM wants the badguys to get away, they have chips. If the GM does not want the badguys to get away, they don't. It's really just that simple. It's a small plot device within with a much greater whole.

I beg to differ; Im not making a big deal out of something that is not important; I am illustrating a detail which I personally dont like because I feel that it imposes to many assumptions that I dont agree with or dont want to deal with in my campaign. It may not be important to you, but you are not the arbiter of importance (nor am I or anyone else). If you find it to be of no consequence then please feel free to disregard my remarks on the subject rather than trying to convince me that my opinion is intrinsically wrong because it differs from your own.

I too can think of many different circumstances wherein the chips could be part of some plot or another. Thats not the issue. The issue is I personally dont think the potential story hooks intrinsic to the concept is worth the annoyance of dealing with the logistics that back it up. If you do, c'est la vie. Personally, Im interested in other peoples takes on the subject and will consider all such ideas forwarded before I arrive at a final decision on whether or not to include them in my campaign.


If I did include them however, my first impulse would be to introduce them as a new technology rather than one that is in place, and see how the PCs react to it. It would be, in my opinion in real life, a violaion of civil rights and personal freedom, but any given character of mine if I were a player might feel differently. As the GM I think it might be a useful character-definer to see where individual heros lie on axis of personal freedom and privacy versus public safety. Afterall many Supers wear masks and maintain Secret IDs; they are private people and would naturally oppose anything which directly infringed on thier privacy. Alternately I might do the opposite, have a big civil rights suit raging in the background story, eventually touching off demonstration, which the police might react to with a tinge too much force causing a riot etc etc, unless of course the heroes intervene.




As far as your players, if they cannot get along with other superheroes, then that is either a fault by you for constantly making the other teams adversarial, or its the fault of the players for not having any idea of what the comic book genre is basically about. At times the JLA and the JSA might clash, but for the most part each team respects the other. The same goes for the Avengers and the Fantastic Four. That's just part of the genre.


Hey, thanx for the automatic fault finding.

I have concerns about the iconic characters being homebased in the same city as my PCs and at the same relative point level and ding ding ding ding your Sense Fault, targeting ability goes off. Obviously that cant be a valid concern; I must be a rotten GM, or have rotten players, or both. :rolleyes:

For starters, the comic book genre is too broad and implemented too differently by different talents and publishing houses to be about any one thing.

Its a common urge to be #1 for a lot of human beings, and to gain recognition and it extends to roleplaying as well. If you drop a party of PCs played by real people into a city with a well-entrenched group of popular 'official' superheroes who are as powerful or slightly less powerful than the PCs, and furthermore are the iconic characters of the very game, you are going to have to deal with something at some point. There is no telling what that something or somethings might be because players are too random and unpredictible to get a 100% bead on them at all times, but you can be safe in the estimate that it will play a roll in the campaign and can either anticipate it and arrive at an operating methodology to handle it before hand or deal with it when it comes up.

Me, Im an anticipator. I cant predict exactly what will come of it, but I know that if I present that situation as given that there will be ramifications. It doesnt matter whether the PCs get along with the Champions or not, are friendly rivals or not, are antagonistic or not. What matters is that it is an element that may have a significant effect on my campaign unless compensated for.

Lets say they get buddy buddy with the Champs. Everyone is hunky-dory; all the heroes have cookouts and play horseshoes. When the PCs get in trouble and need help, who are they going to call? Why, their peers of course, the Champions! Vice versa, when the Champs bite off more than they can chew.....hey PCs, help us out! Eventually, since they are all such good buddies, some bright player will say 'Hey! why dont we merge with the Champions and pool our resources! Or perhaps vice versa the Champs invite the PCs to join thier organization. Or perhaps not, but the PCs need to keep up with the Jonses. The Champs have a tricked out base in the city, if they dont get one too (or one just as good) then they must not be as good as the Champs. Does the rest of the city see them as second-raters? Are they portrayed a benchwarmers, or worse wannabees? What effect does that have on the morale of the party? On the other hand, if they pull off daring deeds, do they gain greater recognition than the Champs, or are the Champs doing daring deeds of their own, and if so why didnt the PCs get a crack at them 1st? Can they never truly excel, or do they eventually exceed the Champions in capability and accomplisments? Do they become hailed as the true heroes of the city, or do they find themselves in the position of constantly being watched by the media and therefore the public for any sign that they arent really as heroic as the beloved Champs? Etc etc etc etc.

Good or bad, all the various permutations of interaction with the Champs is an element of the campaign and will dictate to some extent how the storyline flows. It will have a logical overun into the actual story that I want to tell which, to maintain versimilitude, must be accounted for putting restrictions upon my freedom as the GM. It also requires me to keep the Champs up to date to maintain the desired level of equitude between the PCs and the Iconics.

A lot of those problems go away if the Iconics are a) in another city or b) way out of the PCs league (more or less points depending on starting points level)



As to another point about multiple teams within the city, who says that your team might not be national, international, dimensional, or just local? That is really up to you and the players to decide.

To an extent yes, but to another extent the constraints of the game world also determine that as well. With 1000+ point villains running around, the various restrictions of being unliscenced superheroes, dealing with UNTIL and foreign governments, 350 point characters are less likely to be believably viable as globetrotting heroes IMO. Also, I really want to explore the city based heroing schtick first and get the PCs used to thier environment rather than skip around the cosmos immediately. After theyve got some salt on em as a team, then its time to open up the horizon and step it out to parts beyond. Again, thats my desired approach in this campaign.

My only point on the matter was that your case that a bunch of super teams existed side by side superheroing in NYC in the Marvel Universe was flawed because none of those teams worked solely out of NYC or even spent 50% of thier time in that city. The New Warriors came closest to being a 'NYC' team, and they were easily the weakest of the teams you listed lacking the long range transport of the bigger/older teams.

Also, the X-teams were not based out of NYC, with the exception of X-Factor. They were based out of upstate NY and only ventured into the city on occasion; they spent most of thier time wandering around the globe and beyond, including the New Mutants who were only marginally a 'superteam' as such.



You are making an assumption that 350 point heroes are newbies who just crawled out of their diapers. I assume that some 350 point heroes are new, some are well-established, and some are veterans. Part of the reason the point totals for the game were raised was so that the players would have more begging options, allowing them to be something besides brand new heroes.

{looks around} Hmm.....when did I make the statement that I assumed that 350 point characters are necessarily newbies? Quite the opposite I assure you. I assume the same things that you do about 350 point characters. They may be crusty, learning, or wet behind the ears as befits the character concept; its just a yardstick of current effectiveness and thats all.



I believe you need to view the CU as you would any other comic book universe. Each major city has multiple teams, and each of those teams operates independantly within it's own little sphere. If the New Mutants and the New Warriors can both survive within New York, then the Champions and the "Defenders" can survive within Millennium City.
Again, the New Mutants were in upstate New York, and further to the best of my knowledge had disbanded prior to the New Warriors being chartered in order to form X-Force (or very soon thereafter). I vaguely recall an episode where elements of X-Force teamed up with the New Warriors, I believe in an Annual. Regardless, they didnt coexist in the same city. The Avengers and the New Warriors did however, and there was quite a bit of amusing byplay therein. Marvel Boy for example was recruited into the New Warriors after he failed to gain membership with the Avengers because he was too green. Rage was an honorary Avenger in training until he helped the Warriors sneak into the Avengers mansion and steal a quin-jet somewhere around issue 24 or 5. There was an instance where the Warriors were involved in something and the Avengers stepped in at the end and basically got all the media coverage/glory causing aggravation among the Warriors. It was always very clear cut, the senior group was way out of the Warriors league. The Warriors also interacted with another NY group to some extent: Power Pack. For awhile the oldest Powers kid took all the other kids abilities and called himself Power Pax so he could run around with the warriors. The Warriors also interacted with the Fantastic Four on occasion, Ben Grimm is an old friend of Vance Astrovik aka Marvel Boy from thier time on the powered wrestling circuit together, and IIRC Rich Rider aka Nova had some history with FF as well. Again, the FF was usually involved in much bigger concerns and IIRC at the time was going through fluctuating memberships as well.



Besides, look at it this way, be thankful your game is not in New York. There are 4 established superhero teams in that CU city. :) This is true. However, my concern isnt having another team in the city, its having the ICONIC team in the same city at the same points level as the PCs. I am concerned about what treatment I want to give them as central characters to the default storyline and how much of an element I want them to be in my campaign. I would care less about it if the Sentinels or one of the other 'mentioned' groups was in the city; its the fact that it is The {pronounce THEE -- cue the music} CHAMPIONS!!!!! {crescendo music and cut} which concerns me not the fact that its a another team.

YMMV, etc etc.....

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
This is true. However, my concern isnt having another team in the city, its having the ICONIC team in the same city at the same points level as the PCs. I am concerned about what treatment I want to give them as central characters to the default storyline and how much of an element I want them to be in my campaign. I would care less about it if the Sentinels or one of the other 'mentioned' groups was in the city; its the fact that it is The {pronounce THEE -- cue the music} CHAMPIONS!!!!! {crescendo music and cut} which concerns me not the fact that its a another team.
Let's just say that you and I have differing views on how to run a game. You want every detail workout in advance. I want a brief overview and the ability to bend and fold the game as it progresses. To me the vehicle chips are a game master's tool; nothing more, nothing less. To you they are a problem that needs to be analyzed and gradually introduced so as to not disrupt your players. To each his own.

The fact that the Champions are not 1,000 point characters and can still be Iconic also does not bother me at all. I do not base power-level or group dynamic on point totals. At this time in my CU campaign, my player's group is more popular than UNITY, the Justice Squadron, or the Sentinels. My guess is that all of those other heroes have more points than my players. If you do not feel that either the Champions or your player's group can be a major force in the universe because they do not have 1,000 points, then you will just have to work around it however you deem necessary.

I think my approach is also shown in the writeups of the Champions in MC as well. The Champions are not powerful, point-wise, but they are well liked and respected in the city, so obviously within MC they are Iconic characters, even at the lower point value. It should not matter to you or your players that one of their characters might have a bigger attack than anyone on the Champions, IMO. It should only matter that the city considers the Champions to be its heroes, and any actions taken against them by the players would put the players in a negative light. Thus the Champions have people-power if not raw power.

[majorvictory]

My apologies for veering way off the current conversation, but since I haven't gotten MC yet I have a question. So, to any of you lucky Bastiches out ther who have the book, how does it match up against the only decent pub. for Hero from Gold Rush, "San Angelo"?

[Hermit]

*Sighs* They just shipped it today, and this time of year, it maybe a while before it comes in.

As for the Champions in MC.
Hmmm... I think any solutions I mention have already been thought of, but here goes.
1) Take Homestead, take the name, and let YOUR Players' characters be the Champions. Your universe after all.
2) Add a hundred more points to the Champions, and make them more national than local. Suddenly Millenium City, while it still might admire its high powered heroes, needs some folks who stay IN it more often.
3) Take the Champions and tweak them so they aren't so noble. Maybe your Defender is a greedy industralist seeking to profit off Champions franchise. Maybe Sapphire only does this for record sales, and vanity. Ironclad could be a spy for his people, keeping the inferior humans in line. NIghthawk could be psychotic... a bit dark for me, but when your characters found out any of this... they'd have REASON to have a rivalry.
4) Let them join the Champions. This was mentioned, but it's not such a bad idea. Maybe all but one of the NPCs is opening up elsewhere in the country(Witchcraft could be setting up Champions South in Vibora Bay), and they need replacements for the MC area.

As for what I'm doing... well, I've played a little (Not a lot, I need the darn book, but CU gave me some solid blocks to build on) with my group. Already they've met some of the Champions, and are getting along. They have been gathered by a patron concept... she's already setting them up with a base, and other things... they're being dubbed "The Challengers". They were worried it might seem like they wre out to get the Champions, but Defender, when asked, thought it didn't matter.. MC could use another team.
Heh.. if only they knew. ARGENT is behind this free tech, and coercing the PC's patron to set them up to eventually fight the Champions. Subliminal messages are being implanted in bed chambers. If all goes according to plan... the Challengers and the Champions will be meeting in a way none predicted as the former become convinced that the latter are 'bad guys'.

We'll see how far that gets. :)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by majorvictory
My apologies for veering way off the current conversation, but since I haven't gotten MC yet I have a question. So, to any of you lucky Bastiches out ther who have the book, how does it match up against the only decent pub. for Hero from Gold Rush, "San Angelo"?
Millennium City has a very different style than San Angelo. There were two things which made SA appealing to me. The first was the Astro City feel to the city. SA, at that time, felt as close to Astro City as I had ever seen done (today I would say that Freedom City is much more Astro City than San Angelo). Secondly, it was all the NPC quotes throughout the book. You got a feel for SA by what all those NPCs had to say about the city. I felt like I knew SA because of those comments.

Millennium City has a different feel. It has a more general comic book feel. It feels like DC and Marvel shaken up and poored into the hole in Detroit. In MC there are sections dealing with NPC enviroments (The Barlowe Hotel, ect). There's also a big section dealing with all the "worlds" of MC. You get to learn about some of the corporations, and some of the heroes and villains in that section. The information in MC is more readily useful in the game.

I think the main difference between the two books is that San Angelo seems to have a more overall feel. You get a little information about a lot of areas, because the intention was for Gold Rush to quickly produces sub-city books like Dragon's Gate and Arroyo Verde to give you a bigger picture of the whole city and surrounds. Millennium City, on the other hand, seems to give you a lot of information about specific aspects of the city, because those are the things deemed important. Other aspects of the city, like the waterfront or a suburb, only get a paragraph or two. You can see where there is plenty of room for expansion if DOJ wishes it, but they do not at this time. DOJ intend to uses resources to give you the same overview of Vibora Bay and Hudson City.

I like Millennium City enough to virtually uproot my campaign and slowly transfer it to MC. The book gives me plenty of room to expand, and then just enough rock-solid information to hang myself. I probably like the book better than San Angelo, but that is probably because I never actually played a game in SA, and thus never took the time to develop my own material to add on to a SA game like I have MC.

[Samurai007]

Well, I finally got Freedom City yesterday and was able to compare it with Millenium City. I found that, for 2 superhero setting books released at practically the same time, they had surprisingly different "feels" to them. Monolith, I have to disagree that MC "feels like DC and Marvel shaken up and poored into the hole in Detroit". In fact, it hardly feels like a comic book at all, IMHO. Most of the characters are not iconic and with a few exceptions, are forgettable and not very eye-catching. (Dr Silverback is by far the best character in the book) In fact, most of them feel like GAME characters, not COMIC BOOK characters.

I really enjoy that "Astro City" feel of Freedom City, but that might not even be the best term for it... It isn't ripoff of Astro City so much as it is an homage to the comic books we grew up with. Underground kingdoms of mole men, warlords from the negative zone, an ultimate android built to destroy an entire team of heroes, psychotic criminals with a strange and unique motif, undead sorcerers from ancient civilizations... all of these things describe both characters in actual comics and characters in Freedom City, and the list goes on and on. This is a dangerous ploy, as some may say "Ahhh, that is just a blatant copy of the FF villain Mole Man!" But the book made just enough changes and tweaks that, while highly recognizable, they were not exact duplicates... It worked for me, is all I can say. Just how Samaritan is sort of Superman, Confessor & Altar Boy are almost Batman and Robin, Winged Victory is almost Wonder Woman, the First Family feel like the Fantastic Four, etc.

The problem is, I don't get that feel from Millenium City or Champions in general. The characters are game archetypes more than they are comic book archetypes. Sure, there are some similarities (Defender - Iron Man, Dr. Destroyer - Dr Doom, etc) but they seem like the exceptions rather than the rule. Again, this is a good thing to many people and there is certainly room for a wide variety of character types and interpretations of what a supers game setting should be like... some want to strike out into uncharted waters while other ply the established shipping lanes with new and better ships... both are worth admiring and both can succeed. But maybe I'm just getting nostalgic in my old age... :)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Samurai007
Well, I finally got Freedom City yesterday and was able to compare it with Millenium City. I found that, for 2 superhero setting books released at practically the same time, they had surprisingly different "feels" to them. Monolith, I have to disagree that MC "feels like DC and Marvel shaken up and poored into the hole in Detroit". In fact, it hardly feels like a comic book at all, IMHO. Most of the characters are not iconic and with a few exceptions, are forgettable and not very eye-catching. (Dr Silverback is by far the best character in the book) In fact, most of them feel like GAME characters, not COMIC BOOK characters.
I was discussing the city itself, not the 5 additional superheroes written-up in the book. The city has a very Marvel/DC feel. MC could easily be Metropolis or Marvel's New York. It has that sort of feel to it, whereas San Angelo has the Astro City feel. I was answering the question for a comparison between Millennium City and San Angelo, not Freedom City.

I do find it odd that you would state that Dr. Silverback is the best character in the book, but by your own example would be the least clone-like of any superhero produced. That seems like a double standard. Either you want clone-like icons as given in SAS and M&M, or you do not. :)

I should also point out that Millennium City, unlike Freedom City, is a part of a product that covers Champions Universe, Conquerors, Killers, & Crooks, and Millennium City. Freedom City is offering you an entire world (heroes, villains, surronds) in one book. Millennium City is just offering you an additional glimpse into an already established world.

If you want to compare iconics, break out your copy of Champions, Champions Universe, Conqueror, Killers, & Crooks, and Millennium City. I think you will find several dozen comic book iconic clones. Champions alone has Ironman, Batman, Dazzler, and Ultron, and several more which can be considered near-clones.

[Samurai007]

Well, I see Dr. Silverback as a cross between the Beast (scientist trapped in strong bestial body but retains intelligence) and a heroic version of Gorilla Grodd (or maybe Solovar). Also, his origin is highly similar to a JLA Elseworlds story which reimagined the Justice Leaguers as half-animal hybrids created by Dr. Moreau. There has also been Angel and the Ape and SAS's Deadeye Chimp.

Some of the others are fairly iconic... Scarlet Shield is a bit like Captain America and Mr X is close to Crimson Avenger or the golden age Sandman. But many of the characters are not very iconic, and many don't even wear costumes! Most of the PSI characters, Kodiak, Kevin Poe, Freakshow, etc. Perhaps it is more realistic that they don't have costumes, secret IDs, etc, but that detracts from the comic book feel of the setting, IMO.

You know, I think Millenium City feels much closer to an Aberrant setting book than it does for a 4-color comic setting. Lots of characters that are not in costumes and don't do the traditional hero/ villain thing, but instead are scientists, run schools, work for the police/ FBI, are common thieves, mercs, and killers, etc. Just a very different feel from the 4-color silver age type of setting.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Samurai007
But many of the characters are not very iconic, and many don't even wear costumes! Most of the PSI characters, Kodiak, Kevin Poe, Freakshow, etc. Perhaps it is more realistic that they don't have costumes, secret IDs, etc, but that detracts from the comic book feel of the setting, IMO
Well technically, only three members of PSI do not wear costumes, and two of them do not do "active" supervillaining. The third enters other people's bodys like Jericho (who also did not wear much of a costume if you think about it). Kevin Poe is just a kid, and that is Freakshow's costume (he looks like a freak). Kodiak is an FBI agent, not a superhero. Personally, I thought he was supposed to look like a bear until I saw the picture. :)

[nuada]

RE: Iconics in the same city as players.

There's so many fun ways to deal with this. I would (personally) definitely leave them in. You could make the Champions the celebrated heroes that everyone knows and loves, who can do no wrong, and are always at the scene of the crime protecting the city. Or so the people think. In reality, the other supers of the town, including the players, are at those crime scenes, saving everyone's butt, and the Champions are getting all the credit. I'm thinking the normals and especially the media, would much rather just assume that the super-goings-on are all things they are familiar with and can understand.

Meanwhile, living in the shadow of such people, your team will inevitably develop a rivalry of sorts. This is further complicated by the fact that several of the Champions are very likable people. Perhaps there's even a love interest there. The possibilities are endless.

It's clear to me that the people on this board are very adept at coming up with cool ideas. I'm sure nothing above is so original that you're anxiously writing it down. However, I think part of the joy of a published campaign setting like MC is working with what's there, and twisting it to suit my own needs as a GM. After all, it's what your players are doing in your world, right?

[Nuadha]

I went to the comic shop on my break and flipped through Millenium City. I can't wait to pick it up. I've never had much interest in setting books but this one looks really cool . Having grown up and lived near Detroit my whole life doesn't hurt my interest either.

Nuadha with an H. Accept no imitations. :)

[Starcorp Man]

When I ran with the Champions in a city, they were the other guys, like say Avengers and Fantastic Four. They would help out if they could, if called, or call the other heroes for help. No one felt outshined by them in the slightest, plus they made great for plot points, friends, love interests and the like.

As for the supplement, I'm waiting to see it but know the Seeker jab will bug me, for the same reason the whole world of Steve revamp has.

[nuada]

Aw, and I was going to compliment you on your name and everything. :) Now, I'm simply going to have to insist that, since spelling wasn't standardized until 1800 a.d., and that the subject matter relating to the chosen avatar in question all predates that by quite a bit, and is further aggravated by an oral history that was only later recorded by an invading country, that we are both probably correct in the spellings of our respective names.

Nuada
(we don't need no steenking H's) :)

[Nuadha]

Still off-topic

No argument here. In fact, I've seen the h-less spelling more often and since the h is silent, the h-less version is probably a technically better spelling.

I just like the h spelling because it's more letters. ;)

Welcome to the list, Nuadha-without-an-H.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man
As for the supplement, I'm waiting to see it but know the Seeker jab will bug me, for the same reason the whole world of Steve revamp has.
Not to burst your bubble about Steve, but most of the new Champions Universe stems from Darren's campaign world, not Steve's. Steve did rewrite the Champions, figuring that the originals had run their course as a joke (do we really need to see Seeker trashed all the time?), but virtually everything else such as the Justice Squadron, Fabulous Five, ect stems from Darren's design.

Also keep in mind that DOJ did not own the rights to many of it's pre-5th superheroes, and so it was cheaper to write new, company-owned heroes into the world than to rebuy the rights from the original authors for characters like the Protectors.

[Starcorp Man]

Gah sorry No Bubble to Burst thank you, can't someone say anything that isn't party line? He wrote the Enemies book did he not, and co write the Universe did he not, and is the head designer/writer so his influence is there. I'm sorry that I didn't like the line becomming someone's campaign world.. actually I'm not sorry.

And the jab that bugs me, if they are not going to have them, fine they are gone, don't make the last final stab about it, knowing that there are already people non too pleased.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man
Gah sorry No Bubble to Burst thank you, can't someone say anything that isn't party line? He wrote the Enemies book did he not, and co write the Universe did he not, and is the head designer/writer so his influence is there.
What is it exactly that you do not like about the new Champions Universe? Is it that they did not continue on using the 23 year old mish-mash universe? Is it that they incoporated a new team of Champions so that they did not have to continue on the Seeker joke? Is it that they added 50 new villains to the universe, and they were villains you did not want? What exactly is it, that every time Steve is mentioned you feel the need to spit venom? I'm really just curious how a single game designer can inspire such antipathy in you.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man
And the jab that bugs me, if they are not going to have them, fine they are gone, don't make the last final stab about it, knowing that there are already people non too pleased.
You edited while I was typing.

So, the fact that DOJ included a picture of a comic book with Seeker getting beating (clearly for nostalgia) is what has you so upset? The fact that Seeker is on a dozen covers getting beaten did not bother you, but the fact that he is on the cover of a comic book getting beaten does?

[Starcorp Man]

Obviously you've read every single post I have ever written plus some, but I have nothing against Steve as a person, or a rules guy, some of the rules changes were good, some were not. I don't like the Universe changes, the changes just to change and the Universe becoming someones campaign world.

Honestly, since you've already started off this way, it would be useless to continue, you have already made your stance and want blood to move it, showing that you hunky dory with the changes and embrace the new order, no thanks.

Edit: Gah you want to fight don't you. No it's the percieved mind set about the picture included, further making it a joke. I really don't care they are gone, yes I liked them more then the current but fine their gone, and the displeasure towards it has been made often about the changes, by multiple individuals yet it's thrown in for the one last jab.

[Nato]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man
He wrote the Enemies book did he not, and co write the Universe did he not, and is the head designer/writer so his influence is there. I'm sorry that I didn't like the line becomming someone's campaign world.. actually I'm not sorry.


I don't really understand why this bugs some people? It's like saying you're upset that Hemmingway drew upon personal experience when writing his works. If you had the duty of writing a campaign universe, would you not use ideas from a successful campaign that you created? I think most of us would do the same. I don't see anything wrong with that. If you don't like the characters that's fine; that happens. I don't care for Morrison's take on the X-Men, even though it's still one of the most popular comics today. I don't like a lot of the new characters that he introduced, while removing some old favorites. Is this perhaps what you object to with the new CU?

Side note - I also hate the way Morrison writes characters. These seem like the coldest, most heartless X-Men ever to me. I can't connect with any of them, including old favorites of mine such as Cyclops and the Beast. But I like Frank Quietly's art a lot so I pick it up now and again.

:)

[Blue]

Well, that's kind of funny, Star, because the original line was someone's campaign world. You're just used to it by now.

Personally, I like evolution. I'd be less likely to buy if every version had the same characters reworked and the same setting.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man
Honestly, since you've already started off this way, it would be useless to continue, you have already made your stance and want blood to move it, showing that you hunky dory with the changes and embrace the new order, no thanks.
Actually I have not made any stance. I was just wondering what all the spite was about.

And just as a point of reference, the only posts I do not read every day on this message board are those made in the non-gaming forum. So there is a very good bet that I have read every post you have made outside of that forum. :)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Blue
Personally, I like evolution. I'd be less likely to buy if every version had the same characters reworked and the same setting.
I'm with you completely. If I wanted to continue on the same path as 23 year old material, I'd just play Champions with all my 4th Edition books. Things need to keep changing or they stagnate. I don't necessarily like all the 5th Edition world changes, but they don't drive me to make spiteful posts either. :)

[Starcorp Man]

To continue off topic. I don't mind change when it is needed, I loath unneeded change to fit someones demographic.

Okay Nato, you have hit the nail pretty much on the head. You read a comic, with the same writer, penciler and story set up. Now after a loooong time, some new guy comes in (Joe Casey comes to mind) and says, well we knew you were a fan before so... too bad, this is what is going to happen, remember this team/story/set up you like, gone the eXtreme team is now 4 people instead of 8, they are all brothers, yes we know that Gigachick was originally a female but now he's a secret crossdresser. You know their villian Omnidude, Gigachicks father, well now it's just her neighbor, who actually doesn't wear a power suit evil genius, he's a mystic master from the orient...

[Starcorp Man]

:mad: Just because I don't agree with everything and warmly accept it doesn't mean I'm spiteful.


Is it that they did not continue on using the 23 year old mish-mash universe? Is it that they incoporated a new team of Champions so that they did not have to continue on the Seeker joke? Is it that they added 50 new villains to the universe, and they were villains you did not want

Dude, that's not a stance? You've already dismissed it as mish mash.

[Nuadha]

"that I didn't like the line becomming someone's campaign world.. "

I don't understand the problem with this either. Most RPG settings seem borrow heavily from an established campaign and the Wild Cards novels were based off of a V&V campaign. This has never made them less valid to me. If they're good, they're good, no matter where the ideas came from.

Side note: On Morrison's X-Men, I'm the exact opposite. I'm loving Morrison's writing (although I agree that the characters have been less-lovable than before) but HATE Quitely's art. At times, it's been so distracting for me that I've had a hard time reading the comics.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man
Dude, that's not a stance? You've already dismissed it as mish mash.
It is a statement, not a stance. I think anyone who has been with the game over a period of years realizes that the CU was made by several different authors, some of which contradicted each other at times. There was no continuity to the old CU. It was just: Here are 50 books, fit in whatever you want. Thus my term "mish-mash."

[Starcorp Man]

Originally posted by Nuadha I don't understand the problem with this either. Most RPG settings seem borrow heavily from an established campaign and the Wild Cards novels were based off of a V&V campaign. This has never made them less valid to me. If they're good, they're good, no matter where the ideas came from.

Okay, look at the beginnings and for most of the line, there was very little "this is someguys campaign," style to it, then came StrikeForce, which was someone's campaign, but it wasn't "the official world," then the BBB pretty much brought out the universe, connecting everything and making a working universe (it already was if you had all the supplements, all it did was cement it), and it wasn't some guys campaign.

Yes I understand there were rights lost for certain villains, that's cool don't make them, have more villains, make more but dumping them because "well I don't like these guys," seems rather lame. Seemingly changing something "Heck Bob killed of the Assassin in the game last Thursday, lets yank him." which is what a lot of the changes feel like.

[Nato]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man
To continue off topic. I don't mind change when it is needed, I loath unneeded change to fit someones demographic.

Okay Nato, you have hit the nail pretty much on the head. You read a comic, with the same writer, penciler and story set up. Now after a loooong time, some new guy comes in (Joe Casey comes to mind) and says, well we knew you were a fan before so... too bad, this is what is going to happen, remember this team/story/set up you like, gone the eXtreme team is now 4 people instead of 8, they are all brothers, yes we know that Gigachick was originally a female but now he's a secret crossdresser. You know their villian Omnidude, Gigachicks father, well now it's just her neighbor, who actually doesn't wear a power suit evil genius, he's a mystic master from the orient...

Ok, also look at it this way. There was quite a long span between the 4th edition products and when the 5th edition, with new universe, came out. That's not really like a new comic writer taking over a monthly comic. It's more akin to a relaunch. Almost like the Ultimate line by Marvel. There's been years since 4th edition products. Now ownership has changed and a new product line is out. Yes, it is very different. I personally like the new universe. There's enough of the old, especially with villains, that it doesn't feel completely foreign to me.

I personally enjoy the new Champions characters. Their backgrounds are much, much longer than the meager paragraph included for each member in the BBB. They seem more thought out to me. Whether you think they are generic concepts or not is one thing, but I think you have to agree that things like background, personaility, tactics, etc... are more fleshed out than in previous editions. I especially like CKC for the backgrounds, and plot seeds. I enjoy just sitting down and reading it. To me, it feels like a bunch of short stories, that I can use in my own games.

[Blue]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man
To continue off topic. I don't mind change when it is needed, I loath unneeded change to fit someones demographic.

Okay Nato, you have hit the nail pretty much on the head. You read a comic, with the same writer, penciler and story set up. Now after a loooong time, some new guy comes in (Joe Casey comes to mind) and says, well we knew you were a fan before so... too bad, this is what is going to happen, remember this team/story/set up you like, gone the eXtreme team is now 4 people instead of 8, they are all brothers, yes we know that Gigachick was originally a female but now he's a secret crossdresser. You know their villian Omnidude, Gigachicks father, well now it's just her neighbor, who actually doesn't wear a power suit evil genius, he's a mystic master from the orient...

I fully understand this criticism. But that's not really what's happening on the other end. When a guy gets assigned to a book he's got ideas and he thinks they're going to shake the world. He's not changing it just to spit anyone. Everyone makes changes because they think they're the right thing to do. Sometimes they radically alter things and everyone is happy, and sometimes not. But there's no conspiracy.

[Starcorp Man]

Originally posted by Nato
Ok, also look at it this way. There was quite a long span between the 4th edition products and when the 5th edition, with new universe, came out. That's not really like a new comic writer taking over a monthly comic. It's more akin to a relaunch. Almost like the Ultimate line by Marvel. There's been years since 4th edition products. Now ownership has changed and a new product line is out. Yes, it is very different. I personally like the new universe. There's enough of the old, especially with villains, that it doesn't feel completely foreign to me.

Well I'm not a fan of the Ultimate line either :) Seriously, once again I don't have a problem with change, and I like some of the changes rules wise, universe is kinda eh. I have no problems with the new people, the origins or the cool little sidebars, it's the changes to the old ones that make it feel blagh.


Originally posted by Nato I personally enjoy the new Champions characters. Their backgrounds are much, much longer than the meager paragraph included for each member in the BBB. They seem more thought out to me. Whether you think they are generic concepts or not is one thing, but I think you have to agree that things like background, personaility, tactics, etc... are more fleshed out than in previous editions. I especially like CKC for the backgrounds, and plot seeds. I enjoy just sitting down and reading it. To me, it feels like a bunch of short stories, that I can use in my own games.

I'll agree, they have more indepth backgrounds (well then in the BBB, some of the Champions were expanded in other books). It's not just about the champions, it's just the whole scheme of the thing that left me wanting. I didn't set out to say "I must hate all revisions," when it came out. I'm big into hero, have since the beginning of the whole thing, and really really wanted to like everything.

[Starcorp Man]

Originally posted by Blue
I fully understand this criticism. But that's not really what's happening on the other end. When a guy gets assigned to a book he's got ideas and he thinks they're going to shake the world. He's not changing it just to spit anyone. Everyone makes changes because they think they're the right thing to do. Sometimes they radically alter things and everyone is happy, and sometimes not. But there's no conspiracy.

The example was just tongue and cheek Blue. I understand about being assigned to books, I write game material too, and have friends who work in the industry of both games and comics, and I've seen the looks they get when something new comes along. I don't think it's spite at all that it was done, and I'm not trying to be spitful just disagreeing with a chosen path.

[Nuadha]

Originally posted by Blue
Sometimes they radically alter things and everyone is happy...
I've never seen it happen where everyone is happy. There wil always be someone who preferred it the old way.

Side note: I still can't accept Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern and I 'm still a little sore about the whole "Hal Jordan goes insane and kills the Green Lantern Corps" storyline. At the time it seemed forced and just the writer "spitting in the eye" of Hal's fans. Now I understand why the writer did it. He wanted a youthful character as GL and none of the baggage of the GL Corps. He thought it would be better. Some people agreed. Many did not. These days we're seeing multiple GLs again and the return of the Guardians and Hal Jordan was redeemed as a character in the Spectre. It's all good.

[Killer Shrike]

Personally, I hated the old Champions Universe (it was indeed a mish-mash IMO as Monolith said) and NEVER used it. Not only was it a complete mess, it was also boring and overly goofy -- again in my opinion. Too many of the characters were just silly, and the ones that werent were mostly generic and uninteresting. I mean, did the world really need Gweenies for example?

I'm really loving the new CU however, overall. Its got a good feel to it, and captures a lot of the things I liked about comics when I was growing up. I mean, I havent collected in 10 years give or take, but the new CU material motivated me to go dig up some of my comics and read through them again. Sadly, most of the comics that I really enjoyed in the day seem pretty weak to me a decade later (for example, I used to really like Chris Clairmonte when I was a kid, now his dialogue seems almost painfully bad, his plot lines overly dramatic (and on occasion melodramatic) and his characterizations really heavyhanded -- IMO, YMMV of course).

Who cares if it is heavily influenced by someones campaign, so long as the campaign was solid? So much the better then, than some random collection of as-they-thought-of-it material duct taped together, and with a few serial numbers filed off of derivative characters to protect the plaigerist.

I like the fact that CU, while nodding its head to some classic staples of the genre, isnt bound by slavish aping of existing characters. Do we need Arachnidman or Mr. Incredibly Bendy in CU? Noooooooooo!


Ultimately, if you prefer the old 4th edition era 'Universe', there is absolutely nothing stopping you from using that as is with 5th Edition. If you like elements of new CU, then just incorporate them into your retro-Universe. The differences between 4th and 5th are so niggling mechanically that you can pretty much run the charcaters side by side from both versions, making corrections on the fly if necessary. Very little was changed; some things were reclassified, and quite a bit was added but that doesnt really matter much in the bigger picture to old characters.

[Marchwarden]

I think that much of the umbrage stems from whether the Seeker appearance is interpreted by the reader as an in-joke meant to appeal to older players or as a "jab" meant to snub them.

Now, I love Seeker dearly (despite the infuriating design flaws in the BBB edition), but I wasn't offended by seeing him getting pounded one more time. It's not as if he'd traditionally appeared posing triumphantly on a dozen covers in the old days, and that this illo was attempting to convey that "his time is now over; you must all support the new team". It just wouldn't be classic Seeker if he weren't drawn getting his butt kicked. This isn't "mocking the old team"; it's consistent portrayal, and a salute to those of us hoary and ancient enough to get the reference.

Well, I suppose you could invert the punchline: show a cover with only Seeker left standing. Sort of a "retirement bonus".

[Tclynch]

As far as the Seeker thing goes, I took at as a kind of "tip of the hat" to what have gone before. Only the oldtimers are going to "get it" anyway, so what harm is thier, really?

[Hermit]

I just got both Millennium City and CKC in the mail today, and am hungrily devouring the former first. So far, so great :)