New commer OCV/DCV question

[Glabutz]

Hi,

I'm a newcommer here, and discovered the Hero system a few days ago, fo I was interrested in the Terran Empire, well critized in french rpg press.

I have a question that may have allready been asked, or that you'll find quite dork.

I have issues with OCV/DCV.

Mostly, I don't uderstand :

1. Why do they exist ?
The combat skills don't work the same way than the other skills, and I find it strange. I don't understand the need to use a "TAC0" like system (ok, this is not a nice thing to say, I appologize)

2. How do you "use" your combat skills ?
for 2 levels, you can do extra damages. Does it mean that you're OCV is lowered by the number of skill level you use ?

[Steve Long]

Well, they exist because that's how the system has determined a character's ability to hit a target (or avoid being hit) for over 20 years, and it works really well. Why does D&D have levels, or Deadlands have a shootin' skill? They're all just design decisions inherent in the system.

Combat Skill Levels have a wide variety of uses -- increasing OCV, increasing DCV, increasing damage, for example. If you use one to increase damage, it does not decrease your OCV -- you simply can't use it simultaneously to increase your OCV.

Since some other Hero fans may have further advice, I've copied this to "HERO System Discussion" so they can reply.

Glad to hear Terran Empire has been favorably received in France, and I hope you enjoy 5E!

[Supreme]

I can sort of understand the question. GURPS after all has one set of rolls determined the same way. You pay for a skill, be it stealth, singing, or broadsword. An attack is simply a successful roll with that skill, made the same as all the others. Unfortunately, GURPS -in order to allow for characters who are harder to hit- allows the defender to make defensive rolls. Up to three of them for each attack, IIRC. With HERO a characters ability to hit well, and a defenders ability to avoid being hit, are all contained within one roll.

[Keneton]

When you get to know OCV/DCV, you will grow to like it. It is not truely comparable to TACO (or THACO) as these systems are linear. D20 is completely linear. Hero uses a bell curve. You roll 3d6 not 1d20 for example. This curve makes results more consistent. Skills use the same system per se except that the target number is sort of a success amount. For example making a skill roll by 3 is much like having an OCV 3 less than an opponents DCV. In this case both require a skill roll of 8-.

I hope this makes things more plain.
:)

In regards to skill levels, these work as phase to phase adjustments to your OCV or DCV when used with an applicable attack form. For example a 5 point level with HTH could be used with a HTH attack, but not for or against a ranged attack. You place these levesl during your phase, generally when you commit to an attack, but there are occasions where levesl are placed prior but we do not want to confuse you yet!)

Levels can also be used to increase damage (DC's) as you noted, but this is not taken from you base CV. Base CV is adjsuted by numerous factors such as being prone or stunned, or preforming a sweep to name a few.

ecouter et repeter "Hero system is good!":D

[Glabutz]

Well, my question seemed quite stupid, bt it is true that i'am used to system that use the same rules all along, wether it may be fiht or just normal skills.

Difference between the combat system and the "normal" system trow me back in my past (AD&D 1rst Ed rules for HTH were different from the "normal" melee fight.

So, since it looks like HS is one of the first game I found in which the designer tries and can explain his choices, that there was one.

I have an ansewer and I'm happy wuth it now :)

But, then, I need some clarifications : Every one has a base OCV/DCV that is Dex/3 + Bs/Ms coming from the situation, the combat option you may choose.
.
Then you have your weapon/melee level, which you can use to :
- raise your OCV or
- raise your damage or
- raise you DCV

With a 5 skill level, you mai : have a +1 OCV, then a +1 DC and a +2 DCV.

Am I right ?

Then, you don't need or don't have any dodge skill ?

Or is it possible to developp a dodge skill ?

Yes, I am really new in it, even if I try to get everything I can for this game at the moment...

Last question : is there any supplement that exist/may be developped for cyberware/ Cyberpunk, or all of it is in the Space Hero book ?

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Glabutz
Then you have your weapon/melee level, which you can use to :
- raise your OCV or
- raise your damage or
- raise you DCV

With a 5 skill level, you mai : have a +1 OCV, then a +1 DC and a +2 DCV.

Am I right ?

Correct, but not simultaneously. Of course, if you have several 5 point combat levels you may assign them as you see fit each Phase. My character with two levels in Hand-to-Hand combat often splits them +1 OCV/+1 DCV.



Then, you don't need or don't have any dodge skill ?

Or is it possible to developp a dodge skill ?

There is a free basic Dodge maneuver which gives a +3 bonus to Defensive Combat Value, and which any character may use. Characters with martial arts may purchase the superior Martial Dodge manuever which provides a +5 to DCV.


Last question : is there any supplement that exist/may be developped for cyberware/ Cyberpunk, or all of it is in the Space Hero book ?

So far there is no specific campaign book which covers cyberpunk, but there is plenty of cyberpunk information in Star Hero. Star Hero is really "Science Fiction Hero". :)

And welcome to Hero. :D

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Glabutz
Difference between the combat system and the "normal" system trow me back in my past (AD&D 1rst Ed rules for HTH were different from the "normal" melee fight.

Hero System is a /very/ old school game. And I mean that in a good way. 5th Edition is leagues ahead of the versions that were floating around in 1985, but alot of the internal assumptions are still there. There are rules for everything, which in my opinion is a refreshing change from more modern systems that handwave everything.


But, then, I need some clarifications : Every one has a base OCV/DCV that is Dex/3 + Bs/Ms coming from the situation, the combat option you may choose.

Correct. The standard and optional maneuvers on page 254 of the 5th Edition book (Which everyone on the forum calls FREd, long story) are the heart of your combat choices every action. The martial abilites are better, but cost points to be able to perform.
Once you get used to calculating OCV/DCV it comes very quickly. Once you get used to using these maneuvers you can get very detailed combats.


Then you have your weapon/melee level, which you can use to :
- raise your OCV or
- raise your damage or
- raise you DCV

With a 5 skill level, you mai : have a +1 OCV, then a +1 DC and a +2 DCV.

Am I right ?

If in your example you mean you have 5 skill levels then you are correct. There is some confusion because I'm not sure if you might mean a 5 /point/ skill level (which is how Trebuchet is reading it). Skill levels come in several point costs. The more expensive ones can be applied to more combat situations. This is broken down on p36.


Then, you don't need or don't have any dodge skill ?

Or is it possible to developp a dodge skill ?

Dodge is listed as one of the basic maneuvers on p254. None of the PCs in my current game would still be alive without it. Martial Dodge is even better, but it costs points for a character to buy the ability to perform it.

It should be pointed out that the number of skill levels a character has varies alot by genre. Martial arts heavy game hae chracters that have a half dozen skill levels each, but most of the published super powererd characters have 0-4 each. By buying your dex up and making liberal use of the basic maneuvers you can get buy without any skill levels at all.

There is a long-running and semi-contentious debate on these boards about which characters are better/more realistic/more appropriate: the ones with 30+ dexes and few skill levels or the ones with 15-25 dexes and lots of skill levels.

One of the things about Hero is that while there are guidelines by genre, in your game you can set the standard wherever you want. So if you like skill levels and want everyone to have a bunch, then as long as the characers in your game have the right number of skill levels relative to each other the whole thing still works. You just have to adjust prepublished characters to bring them into line with your game standards.


Last question : is there any supplement that exist/may be developped for cyberware/ Cyberpunk, or all of it is in the Space Hero book ?

There was a cyber hero for the 4th edition, but the fan consensus doesn't seem very positive. Some cyberwear rules are in Star Hero.
Another 4th Ed supplament that might be good is Dark Champions. It's all about violent, gun toting vigilantes with super powers fighting it out in crime-ridden back alleys. Substitute cyberwear for super powers and this might cover alot of the ground you are looking for. This one is out of print, but is due to be updated to 5th edition sometime next year.
Of course the beauty of Hero is that once you get the hang of it you can probably make up your own cyberwear rules without much difficulty.

[Glabutz]

If in your example you mean you have 5 skill levels then you are correct. There is some confusion because I'm not sure if you might mean a 5 /point/ skill level (which is how Trebuchet is reading it)

Yes, I wanted to say "5 skill levels", and not skill levels for 5 points.

I still havan't tried the sysem yet, and should do so in a few days. I'm just worried about understanding the rules so my players won't be mad at the change (we're playing with Silhouette (DP9's) system, that no one like ;) )

One more stuid question : Can you always use your fighting skill levels to increase your DCV.

Exemple : Player has 5 skill levels and uses a gun, while a NPC tries to stab him with a knife. Can the player use 2 or 3 skill levels to increase his DCV ?

And i havan't say it yet, but I'm really glad to see what kind of comunity you are. I feel welcomed even if my questions seems stupid and that it looks like I haven't read the FREd (is that right ?) enough yet.
To this moment, you'e one of the two nicest RPG community I have ever met.

Great books, great people, a priori great system. I'm happy to be here.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Glabutz
And i havan't say it yet, but I'm really glad to see what kind of comunity you are. I feel welcomed even if my questions seems stupid and that it looks like I haven't read the FREd (is that right ?) enough yet.
To this moment, you'e one of the two nicest RPG community I have ever met.

Great books, great people, a priori great system. I'm happy to be here.

Hey, where else can you go to ask questions where the game designer himself will answer your questions? Steve Long and the guys from HERO are the best.! :)

[Glabutz]

Hey, where else can you go to ask questions where the game designer himself will answer your questions?

Sometime on HM mailing list...

That's the second one

:) :p

[Lord Liaden]

Welcome to the HERO community, Glabutz! You're in for a lot of fun.

Don't hesitate to ask questions here; we were all newbies once, and all of us are eager to help a new comrade (and show off how much we know). ;) For example:


Originally posted by Glabutz
Last question : is there any supplement that exist/may be developped for cyberware/ Cyberpunk, or all of it is in the Space Hero book ?

If you click on the "Free Stuff" link at the top of this page, then click on "HERO System Documents", you'll find "The HERO System Genre by Genre". This is a free 41-page PDF file which you can download. It describes several different genres of games, their main conventions and how to do them in HERO terms, one or two sample characters for each genre, and sample powers/ spells/ equipment etc. There's a section on Cyberpunk gaming, with a sample character and some prebuilt cyberware. If you're familiar with the cyberpunk genre, this plus the Fifth Edition rulebook (FREd) should be enough to start your campaign, although you'll have to build your world yourself.

There is more material available in Star HERO, plus the now out-of-print Cyber HERO genre book for the previous (4th) edition of the game system. If you have any interest in Japanese manga and anime, Michael Surbrook has written an excellent manga-style cyberpunk sourcebook for the HERO System, called Kazei 5, for sale as a downloadable electronic book in Hero Games's Online Store (the link for that is at the top of this page, too). There would probably be a lot of material there that you could use.

Hope you find something useful in all of that. :)

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Glabutz [/i]
Yes, I wanted to say "5 skill levels", and not skill levels for 5 points.

I still havan't tried the sysem yet, and should do so in a few days. I'm just worried about understanding the rules so my players won't be mad at the change (we're playing with Silhouette (DP9's) system, that no one like ;) )

If you are jumping in with both feet (we all did once), may I suggest you start simple. There are so many options avalible that you run the risk of bringig combat to a complete halt every action trying to figure out what to do. Hero can do almost anything, but that doesn't mean you should try in in your first game!
I would reccomend a few things:
-The first charcters you use should avoid buying abilites marked with "magnifier" or "stop sign" icons in FREd (and yes you are using that right). These are useful and good abilites, but can either be unusually complicated, or unusually powerful unless you know what you are doing.
-Run a combat or two not using any skill levels or maneuvers. Just get everyone used to calculating hit rolls and using their special abilities.
-When you are ready to use maneuvers, start with the basic ones and add optional maneuvers a couple at a time.
-Make sure charcters don't have speeds that are more than 1 point apart from each other at first. (another topic I know) This can overly penalize slow characters until you get a feel for balance.



One more stuid question : Can you always use your fighting skill levels to increase your DCV.

Exemple : Player has 5 skill levels and uses a gun, while a NPC tries to stab him with a knife. Can the player use 2 or 3 skill levels to increase his DCV ?

If your skill levels apply, you can use them at any time. If you have skill levels that apply to guns only or ranged combat then they will not help you against knife weilding enemies.
On the other hand, if you haveclose combat skill levels, or skill levels that apply to all combat, or skills in knife fighting (even if you don't have a knife, knowing how to fight with one helps you avoid them) then you can apply these.
If, for example, you have 2 levels in ranged combat and two levels with knives, you can use both at the same time, adding two to your ocv for shooting enemies across the room while adding 2 to your dcv vs. knife-weilding enemies.

Don't get too carried away with all combat skill levels, they are really useful, but if you buy a character with too many they will always hit while being unhittable in return. And in most genres, ovarall combat mastery is rare. Most charcters will have skills with their preferred weapons, or ranged combat, or close combat, but not in everything.

[Tom Carman]

Originally posted by Jhamin
I would reccomend a few things:
-The first charcters you use should avoid buying abilites marked with "magnifier" or "stop sign" icons in FREd (and yes you are using that right).
You may be asking yourself "what 'magnifier' icon?" You're not seeing it because it isn't there: FREd uses an exclamation-point-in-triangle icon as a caution sign. In the 4th edition book, an icon of a magnifying glass was used to indicate "look closely before you allow this".

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Tom Carman
You may be asking yourself "what 'magnifier' icon?" You're not seeing it because it isn't there: FREd uses an exclamation-point-in-triangle icon as a caution sign. In the 4th edition book, an icon of a magnifying glass was used to indicate "look closely before you allow this".

Doh!

As you can see. Even the vets manage to get confused.

[Old Man]

I would second the recommendation that you start slow and low.

Grab the Skilled Normals or Competent Normals templates from p224 FREd and do a fist fight or knife fight. Just so everybody can get the hang of things.

After that you have to decide what genre you wish to play you campaign in. It all flows from there. You can always pop in here on the boards and ask for advice on ANYTHING.

[Glabutz]

After that you have to decide what genre you wish to play you campaign in. It all flows from there. You can always pop in here on the boards and ask for advice on ANYTHING.

Thanks a lot.

I come to Hero Games first because of Terran Empire (i'm so bored of the Space Op universe you can find, and I wanted something open and classical) and second because I'm fond of RPG systems.

Now, I would like to take the time I needed to fully understand and test Hero System's rules.

But in fact, I'm lost in a Fading Suns campaign, that we started 3 scenarii ago, with the Silhouette system. We didn't want to play D&D in the stars, so we gave the D20 away, and the whole system with... But now, we are all ok, the DP9 system looks fun, but is not for me.

So, we decided to move to Action! System, which we all knew.

And then, I bought Hero System.

After reading FREd, and lurking throughout Space Hero + Terran Empire, I feel I can do something with it. So, before we do our first "Fading suns action!", I decided to move to HS. Last move.

But we are playing next saturday, and I have to convert the PCs, some NPCs and understand the OCV/DCV thing, before I might explain it to the others.

:p

I see the good point there : I'll be ready for my Terran Empire game :cool:

Nevertheless, I'm trying to adapt the Character sheet so it could be in french and it could help the players with the OCV/DCV.

Shall I put in a box :
Base OCV
Base DCV

HTH CSL
HTH Offensive only CSL
Range attack CSL
Range attack Offensive only CSL
General CSL

Modified OCV
Modified DCV

And then a box for WF

Will it be right ?
Or should I break the HTH and Range OCV/DCV in smaller groups ?

[Old Man]

You can explain OCV/DCV like this:
(11+OCV) - DCV = what you need to roll or less on 3d6
Example: OCV 6 vs DCV 4
(11+6) - 4 = 13 or less on 3d6 to hit. Pretty simple.

I'm not sure what you mean by putting the CSLs in boxes but if it helps your players then go ahead and do it. Personally I would put WF first because if they don't have the WF for the weapon they are using it is a -3 OCV penalty.

[Glabutz]

My problem is more about what you can do with CSL.

I bought the GM Screen, and I have the table, so I'll just ask their OCV and the dice roll they've done. Then, I'll tell them if it is a success or not.

I don't understand the CSL :

For 2 points, you have a+1 OCV for an attack (which means one that is listed in the common list (disarm, brace, move by) with a weapon, or kisk, punch... or attack with a sword or attack with a melee weapon ?)

For 3 points, you may have +1 in 3 manoeuvers r a tight group of attacks (meaning whatever you do as manoeuver when you attack a +1 OCV with that kind of attack, lke sword, or +1 in Disarm, Move by and move throught with a sword...). Can't you use it for a +1 DCV against that type of attack ?

For 5 points, it is more generic, and you have +1 with a group of WF, or you can use it for a +1 DCV (but hten, only against the attacks you know ?)

8 points is fine since it is generic ;)

And then, how do you record it on your character's sheets ?

[Blue]

Originally posted by Glabutz
My problem is more about what you can do with CSL.

For 2 points, you have a+1 OCV for an attack (which means one that is listed in the common list (disarm, brace, move by) with a weapon, or kisk, punch... or attack with a sword or attack with a melee weapon ?)

For 3 points, you may have +1 in 3 manoeuvers r a tight group of attacks (meaning whatever you do as manoeuver when you attack a +1 OCV with that kind of attack, lke sword, or +1 in Disarm, Move by and move throught with a sword...). Can't you use it for a +1 DCV against that type of attack ?

For 5 points, it is more generic, and you have +1 with a group of WF, or you can use it for a +1 DCV (but hten, only against the attacks you know ?)

8 points is fine since it is generic ;)

And then, how do you record it on your character's sheets ?

Ah!
I've always had a tendancy to write the base OCV and DCV based on DEX into those spots (I'd add in any appropriate figures if I had a permanent size change). The "adjusted OCV and DCV" spaces that appear on some character sheets are for the more temporary modifications. If you always used the level you purchased for OCV then it might be ok to list it there, but generally I've always used those adjusted spots for temporary effects like shrinking, growth, and other OCV/DCV modifying effects. I think it used to be on the old-school sheets that they had spots for OCV/DCV, no "adjusted" figure, but a space to list your levels so you could do it at a glance. Now you have to refer to the SKILS portion of the sheet just before your attack.

"I'm going to attack with my energy blast" (Checks character sheet, sees 2 levels specifically with the EB), "I'll put one level in OCV and one in DCV".

I'm sure there are other things I can't think of off the top of my head that you might put into he "adj. OCV" and "adj. DCV" slots. If so, someone here will pipe in any second with them.

[Glabutz]

Ok, I've get that, thanks a lot.

That's one point for me, I guess :)

But how do the 3 first "levels" (2,3 and 5)OCV levels work ?

I'm not comfortable with the "for an attack", "+1 in 3 manoeuvers r a tight group of attacks" and the 5 points CSL Bonus.

[sbarron]

Hopefully a good example will help. Say you have a sword master with a 20 Dex, 3 levels with swords and 2 Hand-to-Hand levels. On your character sheet:

9 +3 w/ Swords
10 +2 w/ H-to-H

The levels with swords are 3 point levels, with swords being the tight group. The hand-to-hand are 5 point levels. the 9 and 10 listed above are the cost of these levels.

Our character above has a base OCV and DCV of 7 (20 Dex/3). When using the sword, he now has all the above levels to move around between his OCV and DCV. So he could have a 12 OCV and 7 DCV, 10 OCV and 9 DCV, 7 OCV and 12 DCV, or any combination utilizing the 5 levels.

These levels will be in addition to any other modifiers for the combat maneuver that the character happens to be doing. (Martial block provides an additional +2 OCV and +2 DCV for example.)

For any levels that the character puts in DCV, they will only be effective vs. hand-to-hand attacks. These levels will not increase his DCV vs. ranged attacks. The only levels that can be used as DCV vs. ranged attacks are 5 pt DCV levels (bought exclusively for DCV purposes) and the 8 pt All Combat levels.

In a herioc campaign (which you will be playing for Terran Empire), the swordmaster could also take 2 of the above levels and use them to increase the damage of his attack by 1 damage class. So if he could normally do 1 1/2 d6 with his sword, he could use two levels to make it 2d6.

If he were to attack someone with an axe, then he could only use the two H-t-h levels. Unless, of course, someone attacked him with a sword, then he could use his sword levels with DCV. I'll try to explain this below.

To answer some of you specific questions about the differing combat skill levels:

2 pt levels. Provide +1 OCV with weapon or attack of choice. So if our swordman above had +1 OCV w/ swords, then evey time he attacked with a sword, regardless of the maneuver he might be using, he would get a +1 OCV. Any additional mods from the maneurver would be included for determining OCV and DCV, however.

If he had bought +1 OCV with blocks, then whenever he performed a block, he would get +1 to his OCV. He would get this +1 OCV regardless of the weapon that he used, whether he had the appropriate familiarity with it, or whether he just blocked with his bare hands.

3 pt levels. You can buy it for a tight group like swords, pistols, axes, rifles, etc. You can also buy it for 3 maneuvers (Disarm, Move-by and move-through, to use your example). So long as you are using the weapon that you bought the levels for, you get the levels regardless of the Maneuver you are doing. The same is true for the 3 maneuver levels. Regardless of the weapon you may or may not use, so long as you are doing the maneuver you bought the level for, you get the levels.

The 3 pt levels are the first you can also use for DCV. If you are using a sword, and you have a 3 pt level with swords, you can use this level in DCV vs. any H-t-H attack. This is because you are using your swordsmanship to make it harder for you opponent to hit you. This is only good vs. H-t-H attacks.

In the event you are using a pistol, you could not use these sword levels to increase your DCV vs. H-t-H attacks in general. However, if someone were to attack you with a sword (and only a sword), then you could use your sword levels in DCV against that attack. This is because your skill with swords provides you with the knowledge to avoid getting hit by swords (you know how fast they move, their range, angle of attack, etc.)

5 pt levels are more generic. They can be purchased for a large group of attacks (US soldiers weapons, All Hand-to-Hand attacks, all ranged attacks, etc) or as +1 DCV. If you buy a 5 pt +1 DCV level, then this level is good against all attacks (including ranged). But all it is useful for is DCV.

If you buy +1 w/ H-t-H, then you get that level any time you are engaged in H-t-H fighting, for either OCV or DCV, regardless of the weapon you are using, etc. However, this level cannot be used for DCV against ranged attacks. If you are using a gun, and are attacked by a H-t-H attack, then just like the sword example above, you can use your knowledge of H-t-H combat to get +1 DCV versus all H-t-H attacks against you.

For ranged attacks levels (+1 w/ pistols, +1 with all ranged, etc), you cannot use these levels for DCV.

The 8 pt All combat levels can be used for anything, all the time. They can provide DCV vs. all attacks, OCV for all Attacks, and can be combined with other levels to increase damage.

Damn, that's a lot of typing. :) I hope this helps.

[Glabutz]

Damn, that's a lot of typing. I hope this helps.

Yes, a lot, really.

I think I got the point.

Ready to play next saturday :)

[sbarron]

Excellent! Be sure to stop back in and let us know how it goes. :)

[Glabutz]

Excellent! Be sure to stop back in and let us know how it goes.

Hi all.

I've ran my first Hero Game yesterday, and should ay that I'm quite happy with it, even if my feeling is "I must read all again and again".

OCV/DCV are quite hard to handle at first time. The differences in Dex give real and terrible OCV/DCV difference.

It was the first use of it, so a lot of questions were asked and I asked many of them, like :

1. Beginning charactr's OCV is quite low. What hapen with a 3 OCV charater trying to stike an opponant when he has -2 OCV (distance shot, for exemple). It is nt in the table :p

2. The armor surprised me a lot, and I think I didn't understand it. Well, in a Space Hero campaign, fire arms or lasers are useless. The 2D6 Ka are not enough to get trough the 12 or 15 DP/EP that normal armor hace. But, on the other hand, armors are quite useless against beam weapons that does 6d6 RKA... I must read again FREd and the armor rules

3. I NEED the spatial toolkit ! It is quite difficult to use, when you start, the weapons given in the Space Op. Does a power sword make a 3D RKA or a 5D RKA ?
Does beam weapons have a OCV bonus ?...
I was quite loss with all this... That is the consequennce of freedom, usually...

4. When you use a mental power, or an Ego attack, you have always to make a ECV roll, and then you roll the dice to see if you overthrow your opponent's Ego. Right ?
Then , should you do as if Ego was a kind of body points (then you can do several mind attacks to beat your opponant) ?

But it was a good game, and the rules are quite fine, once I'll have understood all the things I need.

But :

1. The GM toolkit need improvement : it would be nice to have the FREd's page reference on the booklet, so when you need a little mor einformation, you can find it quicker.

2. Few table miss, and I'd rather have those in it than the hexes pages. exemple : base force and Ego damages,

3. The GM screen is quite hard to use, because of the way it is made. Truly, it is really a neat thing to have a five panel screen, but it is hard to read things on all five panels...
But i won't complaint, since the screen is more than useful !

[caris]

Originally posted by Glabutz
Hi all.

I've ran my first Hero Game yesterday, and should ay that I'm quite happy with it, even if my feeling is "I must read all again and again".

OCV/DCV are quite hard to handle at first time. The differences in Dex give real and terrible OCV/DCV difference.

It was the first use of it, so a lot of questions were asked and I asked many of them, like :

1. Beginning charactr's OCV is quite low. What hapen with a 3 OCV charater trying to stike an opponant when he has -2 OCV (distance shot, for exemple). It is nt in the table :p

The table is just a handy reference to pre-calculate attack rolls. The book gives you the formula the table is based on (Attack Roll=11+OCV-DCV). I don’t own the GM’s Toolkit, so I don’t know if the formula is included on the GM screen. If it doesn’t you might want to consider writing it near the “to hit table” for when you have numbers outside the table. Also you will notice the numbers on the table shift by one for each change in OCV or DCV by one. If the DCV is on the table, find the roll for 3 OCV vs. that DCV and reduce the number by 2 to a minimum of 3. Personally, I find the alternate formula (11+OCV-3D6 Roll = DCV or less hit) more useful in play.



2. The armor surprised me a lot, and I think I didn't understand it. Well, in a Space Hero campaign, fire arms or lasers are useless. The 2D6 Ka are not enough to get trough the 12 or 15 DP/EP that normal armor hace. But, on the other hand, armors are quite useless against beam weapons that does 6d6 RKA... I must read again FREd and the armor rules

I don’t own Star Hero, yet, but I’m looking at my roommate’s copy. They are showing a lot of different styles of armor and weapons, and not every combination is going to work well together. The 6D6 RKA beam weapon is meant for vehicle combat, and not as an anti-personnel weapon. The armor you used is supposed to be full body armor like Bobba Fet wore, it shouldn't stop a ship's gun. Part of the discrepancy is to keep PCs from dying or being maimed too quickly. You might consider moving from the laser weapons to the blaster. The combat will still not be very lethal, but more stun should be get through. Also the equipment in Star Hero is examples, you can re-design it to meet the needs of your campaign, either bump up the weapons, or reduce the armor.



3. I NEED the spatial toolkit ! It is quite difficult to use, when you start, the weapons given in the Space Op. Does a power sword make a 3D RKA or a 5D RKA ?
Does beam weapons have a OCV bonus ?...
I was quite loss with all this... That is the consequennce of freedom, usually...

According to the rules for damage shield (5ed p 163), when you attack with the power sword it does 3D6 KA, since the damage shield part of the sword only has a +1/2 advantage for damage shield. If you use the weapon to successfully block an attack it would do 2D6 KA to whatever it blocked.

None of the ship beam weapons that I looked at included an OCV bonus inherent to the weapon, but I think they are intended to work with some sort of targeting system, built into the ship, either using sensors or computers.



4. When you use a mental power, or an Ego attack, you have always to make a ECV roll, and then you roll the dice to see if you overthrow your opponent's Ego. Right ?
Then , should you do as if Ego was a kind of body points (then you can do several mind attacks to beat your opponant) ?

You make an ECV vs. ECV attack roll. It is like a OCV vs. DCV roll. Ego attack takes away from your stun. The other mental powers need to reach a certainly level over the targets EGO. It is usually an all or nothing effect for powers other than Ego attack. Mental Illusion, Mind Control, Telepathy, etc. can only stack with themselves over multiple attacks if they have the advantage Cumulative on them (5ed p 78-82).



But it was a good game, and the rules are quite fine, once I'll have understood all the things I need.

Glad you had fun. You might want to copy your suggestion for improving the Toolkit to the company questions threads.



But :

1. The GM toolkit need improvement : it would be nice to have the FREd's page reference on the booklet, so when you need a little mor einformation, you can find it quicker.

2. Few table miss, and I'd rather have those in it than the hexes pages. exemple : base force and Ego damages,

3. The GM screen is quite hard to use, because of the way it is made. Truly, it is really a neat thing to have a five panel screen, but it is hard to read things on all five panels...
But i won't complaint, since the screen is more than useful !

[bjbrown]

I've been playing Hero System games for something like ten or twelve years now. And I still don't have a handle on all of the rules. So don't worry about taking forever to learn them. It's still my favorite game system, though.

I don't have Star Hero, but I'm guessing that your problem with weapons and armor are based on the following confusions:

Make sure, when calculating damage, you're keeping track of what damage is BODY damage and what damage is STUN damage. When looking at the armor, make sure that you are keeping track of normal defenses and resistant defenses.

Let's say the attacker has a 2d6 RKA. He attacks a character with 6 PD (Physical Defense) and body armor of 3 rPD (resistant Physical Defense). Thus, the defender has a total of 9 Physical Defense, of which only 3 are resistant.

The amount rolled on a killing attack is body damage. So say the attacker rolls 7 on that 2d6. That's 7 Killing Damage, against which only resistant defenses apply. Since only the armor provides rPD, and the armor is only giving 3 rPD, 4 Killing Damage goes through the armor. The character loses 4 BODY. That's a big ouch.

A killing attack also does STUN damage, based on hit location. If the hit was in the chest, for example, the amount of STUN damage is equal to x3 the Killing Damage. So 7x3=21 STUN damage. However, against STUN damage, the character gets his full defenses, both resistant and normal. He's got 6 PD plus 3 rPD, 9 total. 21-9=12 STUN taken from the attack.

Whenever you get to a point where something happens in the game that doesn't make sense to you, re-read the rules. That happens to me every game. You probably need to go over the combat section several times again.

Mental attacks work very similar to other attacks. The biggest difference is that ECV takes the place of OCV for the attacker, and ECV also takes the place of DCV for the defender. Also, mental attacks generally can be used at range but take no range penalties, and the attacker needs only line of sight to the defender. Finally, the damage of an attack like Ego Attack is not reduced by regular armor (PD or ED), but only by Mental Defense. Finally, mental attacks almost never do BODY damage, only STUN. (With the caveat that all these things are usually the case- in Hero, there's always a way to modify the way a power works. But that's an advanced topic.)


Originally posted by Glabutz
Hi all.

I've ran my first Hero Game yesterday, and should ay that I'm quite happy with it, even if my feeling is "I must read all again and again".

...

2. The armor surprised me a lot, and I think I didn't understand it. Well, in a Space Hero campaign, fire arms or lasers are useless. The 2D6 Ka are not enough to get trough the 12 or 15 DP/EP that normal armor hace. But, on the other hand, armors are quite useless against beam weapons that does 6d6 RKA... I must read again FREd and the armor rules

...

4. When you use a mental power, or an Ego attack, you have always to make a ECV roll, and then you roll the dice to see if you overthrow your opponent's Ego. Right ?
Then , should you do as if Ego was a kind of body points (then you can do several mind attacks to beat your opponant) ?

But it was a good game, and the rules are quite fine, once I'll have understood all the things I need.

[Glabutz]

don’t own Star Hero, yet, but I’m looking at my roommate’s copy. They are showing a lot of different styles of armor and weapons, and not every combination is going to work well together. The 6D6 RKA beam weapon is meant for vehicle combat, and not as an anti-personnel weapon. The armor you used is supposed to be full body armor like Bobba Fet wore, it shouldn't stop a ship's gun. Part of the discrepancy is to keep PCs from dying or being maimed too quickly. You might consider moving from the laser weapons to the blaster

If I'm not wrong, on Space Hero page 154-155, there a multi fonctions gun that does 6D6 RKA (ultimate option, disintegrates what it touch).

But I can understand that this is a quite rare weapon...

So, when you use a blaster (for, let's say 6D6 normal damage), and you wear a 15 PD/ED armor, you can take stun damages, but never take Body damages ? (max body damages are 12 in this case, so 12-15 = nothing got through, even if 21 stun damages do... right ?)

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Glabutz
If I'm not wrong, on Space Hero page 154-155, there a multi fonctions gun that does 6D6 RKA (ultimate option, disintegrates what it touch).

But I can understand that this is a quite rare weapon...

That writeup is pretty much an old-school Star Trek (Kirk & Spock) phaser with the serial numbers filed off. It isn't so much that it is rare as it is one end of the equipment spectrum.

Just a clarification: Star Hero is a genre book. It covers the entire Sci-Fi Genre. Alot of the weapons are not meant to work together, they are intended as examples of what you might find in a Sci-Fi game. You are supposed to pick and choose what gear appears in your game. If you are playing a game that works alot like the Alien movies, a Star Trek Phaser is not avalible anywhere at any price. They just don't exist. And if you are in a Star Trek like universe then every starship officer carries one. They are very common. If you have a world like that then other things change. Phasers are so powerful most people don't bother with armor since if you get hit it won't help you anyway.
(notice the 6d6RKA is bought as a No Normal Defence vs. force fields. If you have a force field it bounces off, if you don't you take full damage with no protection, pretty much how it used to work on the old Star Trek)


So, when you use a blaster (for, let's say 6D6 normal damage), and you wear a 15 PD/ED armor, you can take stun damages, but never take Body damages ? (max body damages are 12 in this case, so 12-15 = nothing got through, even if 21 stun damages do... right ?)

Correct. If it is a "normal attack" blaster. Weapons like these don't pack much of a punch. For a point of comparason, a normal martial artist using a powerful attack maneuver can do 6d6 without much trouble even without enhancement.

The 15PD/15ED armor is really meant to protect you from kiling attack damage. You can only apply your resistant defenses against the body damage from a killing attack. If you have resistant defenses, you can apply the total of your normal and resistant defense against the stun, if you don't, you have no protection at all.

A 2d6 RKA is the same point cost as a 6d6 EB blaster, and does a similar amount of damage on average. The difference is that if an unarmored opponent gets hit with the EB his ED will help protect him from both the body and the stun. If he gets hit with the 2d6 RKA he has no protection from either one.

You may be thinking "but the 15 PD/15 Ed armor protects me from both pretty effectivly". You are correct. A 6d6 Eb and a 2d6 RKA both weigh in at 30 active points, that is pretty mediocre. 15PD/15Ed armor weighs in at 45 active points, that is pretty strong. One of the basic rules of thumb in Hero is that your attack powers should cost alot more than your defences. In most superhero games the rule of thumb is that defences should have about half the active points of attacks, and just think how much damage bounces off most superheroes. If you want your games to be lethal then your defences need to have less than half the active points of your attacks.
That 15/15 armor is meant to be military grade heavy armor. Military grade heavy weapons in star hero inflict damage in the range of a 3d6 armor piercing autofire attack.

[Blue]

All I can suggest is that in order to balance your campaign, simply compare the ACTIVE COST of an attack versus that of a defense. They should be approximate. A 6D6K attack is 90 Active Points. 15PD/ED Resistant Defense Armor is only about 45 Points. Your attack is TWICE as powerful as the armor.

And even at that, 90 Active Point armor would yield 30PD/ED, which works out to about 30 STUN getting through the armor, so it's likely to STUN just about anyone wearing such heavy-duty armor. Of course, a Ship's guns should sting the best armored character (at least in a non-superheroic game).

This comparison works better on lower levels. A 6D6 EB would do 6 BODY/ 21 STUN on the average, and be about 30 Active Points. Equivalent Defense would be 15PD/ED (Non-resistant). You'd do about 6 Stun on a hit, which would sting but would not disable the guy. A really good hit might have more impact, a low damage roll being all but ignored as a glancing wound.

[Killer Shrike]

RE: Combat Levels

If it helps, think about it this way:

2 normal people with a 2 Speed and an 8 in all thier Primary Characteristics including DEX both have an OCV and a DCV of 3 each; we will call them A-Man and B-Man.

Since an attack roll is 11 + OCV - opponents DCV, basically whenever 2 opponents are evenly matched they both have an 11 or less (11-) chance to hit each other which isnt really 50% (its 62.5% actually), but in HEROs serves as a proxy for roughly half the time. Because of the 12.5% difference inherent in this, characters have a tendency to succeed when all else is equal in the HERO System, which you must admit is rather heroic.

As a total aside, here is a decent dice method site that a Google search turned up that might help you visualize the probabilities more as you mention some d20 experience:
http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/rpg/systemdesign/dice-methods.html

Back to the point, since equivalently skilled opponents are always at an 11- to hit one another with a basic Strike or basic Power attack, you can see why some way to add a little variation to this needs to exist.

If A-Man wants to increase his ability to hit B-Man, he is in luck; the HERO System offers a wide variety of ways to do this. His options include (but are not necessarily limited to) the following:

1) Increase his Dexterity. This has many many beneficial side effects: every 3 character points increases what in other games is called "initiative", allowing him to act before B-Man; every 9 character points raises both his OCV & DCV by 1 each making him both more able to connect and less likely to be connected with in combat; and every 30 character points also increases his SPEED by 1, allowing him to take more actions than B-Man AND staggering his Actions across the Speed chart which enables him to act sooner in a Turn as well.

If A-Man put 15 character points into DEX (+5 DEX), he would have 13 DEX, and a base OCV/DCV of 4, 1 better than previously. Further, his SPEED will figure as 2.3 rather than 1.8, so the 2 points he applied to SPEED to bump it to a 2 make that a 2.5 figured; for 5 more character points he can have a 3 SPEED. Lets go ahead and spend those 5 points. A-Man is a 3 SPEED 13 DEX 4OCV/4DCV character now. Fighting B-Man, he would get an extra action, hit 74% of the time, and get hit 50% of the time. By holding his Segment 4 action he could Dodge B-Man's segment 6 action, getting hit only 16% of the time, attack in 8, and dodge again in 12. He has a significant advantage over B-Man even with just a +1/+1 difference in OCV/DCV and an extra action. Of course, B-Man may have put 20 points into Defenses, canceling out some of the advantage, but you get the idea.


2) Buy Martial Arts Manuevers. This isnt a sure thing, but many Martial Manuevers have positive OCV and/or DCV bonuses. By being discriminating, A-Man could increase both his chance to hit B-Man and the amount of Damage he does, and even widen the range of his abilities for not very many points. The minimum buy-in for Martial Manuevers is 10 character points, but this is easy to acheive. Fast Strike (+2/+0, STR+2d6 damage; from the Ultimate Martial Artist {a highly recommended product by the way}), Martial Dodge, and Martial Block are 3 excellent choices, giving very efficient OCV/DCV bonuses for thier cost; add on a Knowledge Skill: Martial Art of Choice for 3 points and you have a nice compact little Martial Artist who is fairly decent (for a normal). Martial Manuevers are what you can think of as "point efficient", meaning you can often get a little bit more effect for your points by taking a Martial Manuever than you could by building the same effect seperately.


I dont have my book handy, but IIRC Martial Block, Martial Dodge, and Fast Strike are all 4 point Manuevers, so with a 3 point KS: Martial Artist skill thats 15 character points. If A-Man bought that and put 5 points into STR, when fighting B-Man he could Martial Block on Phase 6 with a +2/+2 IIRC, blocking B-Man 83% of the time, and then strike 1st (a feature of Block) in Phase 12 with Fast Strike (+2/+0), again hitting 83% of the time, or 50% if B-Man Dodges, and doing 4.5d6 damage for an average of around 15 or 16 points of normal damage (which will knock B-Man out after 2 average hits or 1 good hit, and will stun him each hit). If B-Man does manages to hit him with his 8 STR, inflicting 5 normal damage on average with 1.5d6, A-Mans increased Strength also translates into +1 PD, +3 Stun, and +1 REC so he is somewhat more able to absorb that damage. Alternately, instead of +5 STR, A-Man could have bought +1 DEX for 3 character points and +2 PD for example, which would probably allow him to sucker punch B-Man in segement 6, stunning him on an average roll, and then drop him in 12.


3) Buy Combat Skill Levels (CSLs). Combat Skill Levels reflect a general competence with fighting and as you know come in many varieties. The more expensive CSLs are efficient in a direct proportion to how overall effective and well rounded a character is. It does little good for a dedicated ranged character with low HtH attacks and low defenses to by All Combat levels for example; its a waste of points usually. Similarly, a dedicated ground pounder who lacks ranged attacks might chuck a car or two occasionally depending on the genre, but generally All Combat Levels are less efficient than buying more 5 point HtH or 3 point tight group levels. Generally speaking and in my opinion, characters for whom 8 point CSLs are the most efficient levels are rare; usually a character that has enough HtH and Ranged abilities to want the flexibility of CSLs also has enough other skills and/or abilities to pay 2 more points (10 total) and get the all-mighty OVERALL levels (listed under Skill Levels not Combat Skill Levels) which are just like All Combat levels except that for 2 points more they apply to all skills AND Find Weakness for those fortunate enough to have it (according to the FAQ). Personally, I'm a big fan of dedicated DCV levels, but your mileage might vary; afterall 10 character points will buy +2 DCV, 9 character points will buy +3 Dex which give +1 OCV +1 DCV 1/3 of another point of SPEED and the ability to act sooner in a segment. Typically, if I have Normal Characteristic Maxima on a character I go for DCV levels; else I go for more DEX. If you dont have a lot of attack powers or Martial Manuevers, 2 point +1 OCV with Strike is usually good enough, mixed with maybe a few 3 point levels here and there.

So if A-Man took +1 DCV for 5 character points, and +5 with (Block, Strike, Disarm) for 15 character points for 20 character points total and went off to fight B-Man, he would hit with a Strike 98% (!) of the time if B-Man does not Dodge, or 83% of the time if he does. By contrast, he will be struck 50 % of the time if he does not Block or Dodge.

4) Get an area of effect attack. Normally not an option in a Heroic campaign (aside from grenades), this allows a person to strike at a hex (a roughly 6.5 foot or 3 meter diameter area essentially) rather than at a person; this is vs DCV 3 at range and vs DCV 0 adjacent. This cancels an opponent's CSLs, and Martial Manuevers outright. To a certain extent it also cancels an opponents DEX, but using the Dive for Cover manuever, an opponent who is able to Abort to Dive for Cover uses thier DEX to resolve whether they get out of the way or not and thus a high DEX will still play a roll vs AoE attacks.

If A-Man bought a +4d6 Hand Attack AoE: 1 hex (+1/2) 0 END (+1/2) HA (-1/2) OIF (Universal): Fighting Staff (-1/2) for 20 Base Cost x ((+1/2) + (+1/2)) = 40 Active Points / ((+1/2) + (+1/2)) = 20 Real Cost {SFX= he swings the staff in wide horizontal swaths, bisecting a hex}, he would hit B-Man (DCV 0 vs an Adjacent Hex) 90% of the time and do enough damage to stagger him on average each hit.


The general idea Im trying to get across is that you shouldnt get too hung up on CSLs in and of themselves; rather understand the basic concept of OCV and DCV modifiers in general, and also understand how OCV and DCV relate to each other.


Basically, if my OCV is 3 more levels than your DCV, Ill hit you 90% of the time; if your DCV is 5 higher than my OCV Ill miss 90% of the time. Thus, the to hit favors the attacker, but to balance that out the Defender has the active options of Abort to a Dodge, Block, Dive for Cover, or a Roll with the Punch to minimize my chance to hit, avoid damage outright by either effectively contesting a roll with me, or by moving out of the way, or by minimizing the damage inflicted by a successful hit, or the passive option of increasing thier Defenses so that attacks do little or no damage.


Because of this a person with a 8 OCV/5 DCV in HtH is slightly better off than a person with a 5 OCV/8 DCV in HtH. They will hit each other the same percentage of times normally, but if the 8/5 dodges to become an 8/8 the 5/8 will connect only 25% of the time, while if the 5/8 dodges to become a 5/11 the 8/5 will connect the same 25% of the time BUT if the 8/5 person aborts to a Block, he will Block the 5/8 persons attacks 90% of the time preventing all damage while the 5/8 person will only block successfully 25% of the time.


In Heroic level games, I find that a decent Dex of around 15-18, with a couple of 2pt +1 OCV levels with my most common attack, an Overall Skill Level if I can squeeze it, about 15-20 points of well-chosen Martial Arts, 2 Range Penalty levels, and a 4 Speed is usually comes in under 75 points and forms a very capable core functionality. If I have points left over, season with Characteristics and background skills; Ill often buy a few 1 point Familiararities for an 8- roll and then pay the 2pts per to buy them out with the first few nights experience points; that way usually by the time I need to use the skill I am actually proficient with it and can then apply my Overall Skill level. If the GM is nit picky and wants a rationale, i can usually play it off as 'all the action we've been going through have emphasized practical application and has catalyzed years of accumulated knowledge into a cohesive whole' or spin it off of some in-game effect. Most GMs are just happy to see a character with off-beat skills and dont make a big fuss over it.

What Im getting at, is that the most effective way to improve a characters overall combat capability vis-a-vis the OCV/DCV scale is to mix and match elements such as Martial Arts, DEX, CSLs and occasionally AoE attacks rather than focus on any one of them overly much.

YMMV. Welcome to HEROs!

[Glabutz]

What Im getting at, is that the most effective way to improve a characters overall combat capability vis-a-vis the OCV/DCV scale is to mix and match elements such as Martial Arts, DEX, CSLs and occasionally AoE attacks rather than focus on any one of them overly much.

Thanks, Killer Shrike. That helps a lot.

But, if I can, I'd like to ask a few more question about this : what can I do when there is no martial manoeuvers ?

Example : In a few weeks, we'll start a Deadlands campaign. The deadlands system is horrible, and there is no way I can play with it. So I have to choose if I switch to Gurps (bof) or to Hero (I find it cooler).

But then, the OCV/DCV thing shows up again.

Let's say that PCs will have a base OCV/DCV of 5 or 6. No martial art will be available, but for the chinese or european PCs (savate is described in UMA).

Gunfight will be quite frequent.

So, I think that each of the should have some +5 CSL with their favorite gun, +3 HTH CSL (or the opposite if they feel more "manual").

They might trade some points to get range modifier or loc modifiers.

Will they be Munchkins ?

[Killer Shrike]

Martial Arts: well the important thing to keep in mind is that 'Martial Arts' is a broad category and represents more than just Oriental arts such as Karate and Kung Fu. It also represents Boxing, Wrestling, and also just plain Scrapping {er--thats an American slang term for down and dirty bare-knuckled fighting; a "scrapper" is some one who may not have any formalized training in a fighting style, but still knows how to get into a fight and mix it up; its synonymous with Brawling).

You can also use Ranged Martial Arts to represent Lasso's and whips which are fairly common in the Old West setting.

So it would not be unusual to see a character with a 'Barfighting' style for example, with a few manuevers like Martial Block (Ain't Happening), Martial Strike (Jab), Offensive Strike (Roundhouse), Martial Throw (Get out of here!), Takedown (Dog-pile), Martial Grab (Let's Dance), and a Club Weapon Element (for barstools and bottles).

I highly recommend you get the Ultimate Martial Artist, which contains a plethora of rules and examples on the subject.

The important point to remember is that in HEROs Martial Arts <> Asian fighting styles. Its much much bigger than that.


Munchkin: Well, it really depends on the point level of the campaign and how good the PCs are compared to the opposition.

Remember, Equal OCV and Equal DCV cancel out; they scale together in other words. So if the PCs have an average OCV of 8 and the villains have an average DCV of 8 then its not really much different than if the PCs had and OCV of 3 and the villains had a DCV of 3. The percentage to hit with a basic attack is the same.


So, all you have to do as the GM is eyeball the average OCV/DCV of the PCs and then for each villain decide: is this guy hard to hit, easy to hit, or average to hit; should he be able to hit often, average, or rarely and then arrange thier OCV and DCV levels accordingly using any of the methods available to so.



As an aside, a character with a 20 DEX has spent 30 character points, gaining +4/+4 OCV/DCV and also gaining a point of SPEED which normally costs 10 points. To seperate the side effect of SPEED out, subtract the 10 points it would take to buy the SPEED seperately from the 30 character points; so we are dealing with 20 character points for and OCV DCV of 7/7.

A character with a 10 DEX that spends 20 points on Combat Levels cant get close to a global +4/+4 OCV/DCV. Even spending 30 points they cant get it. However, if the character only needed to be good with 1 attack, he could buy +2 DCV levels for 10 pts and +5 OCV w/ 1 Attack for 10 pts or +10 OCV w/ 1 Attack for 20 pts.

Combat Levels have other uses, but for raising OCV/DCV across the board DEX is far more efficient than CSLs until you hit Normal Characteristic Maxima. Another main consideration is that if a character has better defenses, DCV doesnt matter as much and they will do better with CSLs, if they dont have good defenses then DCV is much more important and DEX will be better. CSLs are more immediate so impatient players might end up with lots of them where as the more patient will buy thier DEX and see slightly longer term pay offs. At an average of 3 Exp per session, it takes 3 sessions to see the +1/+1 gain from DEX, where as a person buying 3 point tight group levels will see an immediate +1 CV gain each week, but only for his tight group.



If in your example the characters have an average DEX of 18, it will always be more efficient for a character to spend 6 points to bump that up to a 20 than to buy CSLs. This unfortunately leads to characters in a shooty campaign that all tend to have stats that more or less look like 15 STR, 20 DEX, 18 CON, 15 BODY, 10 INT, 10 EGO, 15 PRE, 14 COM, 8 PD, 4 ED, 4 SPD, 7 REC, 36 END, 40 STUN.

To counter that out however, another character might buy +3 OCV with Pistol or +2 OCV with Called shots to the Head (5 pt Ranged, -1/2 Lim) for the same 6 points.



Basically, for starting players, I might recommend that you keep things simple. DEX is much easier to calculate because it is static. Therefore, you may want to encourage players to only take a couple of CSLs to start with. If the group then encounters villains that they cant hit, they will actively try to raise thier OCV levels with experience. If they themselves always get hit, they will actively try to raise thier DCV or defenses. This gives an opportunity for growth. They can put the rest of the points saved into some background skills, which are a little harder to explain away in-game than combat levels because its an assumption of the genre that early experience in battle leads to greater capability in battle fairly quickly; the baptism of fire concept is built into the RPG paradigm.


Another tip to help you and your new play group learn to deal with CSLs is to get index cards for each player (we usually call them 3"x5" cards in America but I have no idea what you would call them in a country on the metric sytem ;) ), or slips of paper will do in a pinch. With a bold marker write down 1 CSL per Character per Card. Thus if a character had 3 All Combat levels, you would end up with 3 cards with +1 All Combat written on them.

Now, take two other cards for each player and turn them 90 degrees on edge so that the short side is up and write across the top of 1 OCV: {Base OCV} and across the top of the other DCV: {Base DCV}. Each player puts the OCV and DCV cards in front of them on the playing table. Each Phase they may allocate their CSLs as they see fit and as appropriate to the action taken between OCV and DCV, physically stacking the cards on their base OCV or base DCV card to represent how they are assigning these levels.

Characters with Martial Manuevers or which frequently use one of the Basic Manuevers which has modifiers should take 2 cards for each Manuever and write down the Manuever across the top and the OCV and DCV modifiers of the manuever each to a seperate card; if they have 2 pt OCV levels that only apply to a single Manuever they shoul sum them together on the Manuever's OCV card rather than have them on seperate cards to simplify things.

Finally, the GM takes a pile of cards and just writes down a few modifiers, several cards each for the most common such as <big>+1</big>, <big>-1</big>, <big>+2</big>,<big>-2</big>,<big>1/2 DCV</big>,<big>0 OCV</big>. In play, whenever the GM assesses a modifier for circumstances or a PC tries to do a Move By at Non Combat Speed or is Grabbed, etc, the GM can toss the appropriate cards onto the pile appropriate to the character.



This method takes a few minutes of arts-and-crafts time and a little bit of paper shuffling in game, but makes it very easy to count OCV and DCV and not get confused about what levels are assigned where. Ive found it to be both a great teaching tool and even a game speeder in the past. Once the players get used to sorting it all out, they become very proficient at dialing in thier CSLs and Manuevers. Some people have found it to be a decision making aid even; by framing thier modifiers in such a visual fashion, they realize which courses of action are more likely to succeed or fail statistically and act accordingly.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Glabutz
Thanks, Killer Shrike. That helps a lot.

But, if I can, I'd like to ask a few more question about this : what can I do when there is no martial manoeuvers ?

You can run entirely off of combat skill levels and the basic maneuvers from FREd.
There are also a couple of martial styles like boxing and dirty infighting/fisticuffs from the UMA that would appear in the weird west.


So I have to choose if I switch to Gurps (bof) or to Hero (I find it cooler).

And another convert is born.......
:)


But then, the OCV/DCV thing shows up again.

What exactly do you mean by OCV/DCV "thing"?


Gunfight will be quite frequent.

So, I think that each of the should have some +5 CSL with their favorite gun, +3 HTH CSL (or the opposite if they feel more "manual").

They might trade some points to get range modifier or loc modifiers.

Will they be Munchkins ?

If the bad enemies that are supposed to be challanging have similar numbers it will all work out.

I suspect that you are clinging overly much to lots and lots of skill levels. The total OCV and DCV of the combatants after all the modifiers are accounted for is all that matters, how you get there is unimportant. There isn't much of a difference between everyone having +10 to OCV and DC or +1 to OCV and DCV. As long and everyone has about the same scores Relative to eachother it all balances out.

Heck, if somebody's dex is so high that their base OCV/DCV is equal to everyone else's including levels, that person doesn't even really need levels at all.

I personally run a Superhero game where the average OCV/DCV is around 6-8 (be warned, that is about 2 points lower than the "official" average, I chose to do that intentionally)
Out of my PCs:
-One has a base OCV/DCV of 6 and uses lots of martial arts maneuvers.
-One has a base OCV/DCV of 6 and one "all combat" skill level
-One has a base OCV/DCV of 3 and 5 "all combat" skill levels
-One has a base OCV/DCV of 9 and gets by on that (she ends up always hitting and being really hard to hit back, and has lower defences than average to keep it fair)

Enemies are built similarly.

[Glabutz]

I suspect that you are clinging overly much to lots and lots of skill levels. The total OCV and DCV of the combatants after all the modifiers are accounted for is all that matters, how you get there is unimportant. There isn't much of a difference between everyone having +10 to OCV and DC or +1 to OCV and DCV. As long and everyone has about the same scores Relative to eachother it all balances out.

I must disagree with that.

But so do you.

In fact, the way your OCV/ DCV is calculate is very important to me, because it describes your character.

So,if little John is a Winchester pro but doesn't know how to keep on his feet whil ehe is running, he should have a low dex (and so low OCV/DCV) but a high CSL for winchester range attacks (3 or 5 points par level ?)

On the other hand, if Big Bill is a natural born killer, he should have high dex, and so far, not necessary a lot of CSL.

It looks like munchking is quite easy, since for 15 points, you gain a +1/+1. Well, it is true that you could gain the same advantage with 11 or 13 points (8 for general, and then 3 points for defense options)

French players are not really used to high power games. When I first read FREd, I was surpized by the Super Hero feeling (but I understand it) and that you all seem t play it in supeheroic levels. Well, at first, I'd rather have Heroic characters, than super heroic. But things may change after all our discussion.

Why not, if they don't wear 4 colors pyjamas ?
:)

It looks like we, french players, need maximum levels, that no one can have, and get them after a few gaming sessions.

But my original point was to say that I feel the need to have different characters (that is the first and main reason I decided to leave Gurps, because I am fed up of STR 9, DX 15, IQ 15, H 9 characters). That is why I dropped L5R.

So I wondered how not to have the same problem here. But with a 20 Dex max, I think I'm quite ok. And you showed that you can have the same efficency with different ways.

Kewl
:D

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Glabutz


It looks like munchking is quite easy, since for 15 points, you gain a +1/+1. Well, it is true that you could gain the same advantage with 11 or 13 points (8 for general, and then 3 points for defense options)

Hero system is VERY easy to munchkin.

Steve Long has stated that his design philosopy in 5th edition was to provide rules that allowed you to do as much as possible without telling you what you can and can't do. That is wonderful when you need to do something outlandish, but causes real problems if your players are trying to create a combat machine rather than a character. There is nothing in the system to stop them, they have to stop themselves. This isn't meant to be an accusation, it is very common for people to take a while to adjust to the idea that Hero allows them to make the character they want. Most systems ask you to make the best character you can, and I for one didn't even realize I had been trained into that mode of thinking.


French players are not really used to high power games. When I first read FREd, I was surpized by the Super Hero feeling (but I understand it) and that you all seem t play it in supeheroic levels. Well, at first, I'd rather have Heroic characters, than super heroic. But things may change after all our discussion.

I think this has to do with Hero's roots. The first book to actually be called "Hero System" was a 4th Edition product. Champions was the 1st game in the series and was all about superheroes. It did it very well and later products were released with similar rules that covered other genres. They were all alot alike but weren't realy compatable. 4th Edition worked very hard to establish a common set of rules that worked for any genre. The consensus was that it succeeded, but the rules were released with a picture of a superbattle on the front and 1/5 of the book was devoted to superhero gaming. Given the popularity of the various genres in 3rd edition it only made sense to package it that way but it didn't help the perception that Hero was only for supers.

Most of the old timers on these boards got into Hero by playing Superheroes. Many of us still primarily play heroes because it is the most familiar.

Many fans were happy to see that FREd still featured supers in the art, but not overly so. It makes it alot easier to convince new players that you can do other things.

20+ years after the game was introduced, many people still believe that Hero=Champions=Superheroes.