Tricky Power Design [Archive] - HERO Games Discussion Boards

Super Squirrel

Oct 23rd, '04, 09:31 PM

Imagine, if you would, a character being built on the concept that the character is a sword. It has powers, such as Mind Control for the person wielding it and other nifty special features such as Images: Light and Total Life Support. But also, the character is a sword. The person wielding it can swing it as a weapon and do damage.

So how do I build the power on a character to represent the fact that a wielder can use it as an attack?

My thought was 3d6 HKA, UBO, Can Only Be Used by Others (-1/4)

Is it that simple, or is there more to this that I need?

Madstone

Oct 24th, '04, 12:11 AM

I may be misreading what you're after, but if the sword is mind controlling the weilder then the UBO doesn't feel right to me. The sword is still the one doing the attacking and the damaging, and the fact that the puppet is weilding it is a special effect. I'm thinking maybe a HKA with a limitation on the amount of STR added being limited to the puppet's STR.

Hawksmoor

Oct 24th, '04, 03:28 AM

Interesting.

Well one could handwave it and not require the UBO, can only be used UBO. I would especially if the Sword were built as an automaton. The total construction of the Sword would require reduction of just about every physical STAT other than BODY, which would require GM approval in most games.

In any case I would just buy a 3d6 HKA perhaps AP and definitely 0 END and make the added STR come from the weilder. After all the character is just an elaborate focus.

Keep us posted.

Hawksmoor

S41NT

Oct 24th, '04, 05:20 AM

This is interesting. I just thought of something (i think its different from what you want): could a sword-character have a wielder as a focus? :o) And need a Mind Control test to be capable of using it's other powers?

Like, the poor guy grabs the sword. That allows the sword to use mind control. if mind control works, the sword can act.

Is this doable?

Super Squirrel

Oct 24th, '04, 08:15 AM

I may be misreading what you're after, but if the sword is mind controlling the weilder then the UBO doesn't feel right to me. The sword is still the one doing the attacking and the damaging, and the fact that the puppet is weilding it is a special effect. I'm thinking maybe a HKA with a limitation on the amount of STR added being limited to the puppet's STR.The only reason I feel that UBO should be included is this. Someone can pick up the sword, breakout of the Mind Control, and use it as a weapon. I might leave the HKA to limited by STR though.

Super Squirrel

Oct 24th, '04, 08:17 AM

Interesting.

Well one could handwave it and not require the UBO, can only be used UBO. I would especially if the Sword were built as an automaton. The total construction of the Sword would require reduction of just about every physical STAT other than BODY, which would require GM approval in most games.

In any case I would just buy a 3d6 HKA perhaps AP and definitely 0 END and make the added STR come from the weilder. After all the character is just an elaborate focus.

Keep us posted.

HawksmoorI'm not going to build it as an automaton for a couple of reasons. The only thing I need to worry about, for the most part, is the fact that it can "bleed" and I'll just simply write the SFX as its magical nature leaks out like vapor.

Super Squirrel

Oct 24th, '04, 08:20 AM

This is interesting. I just thought of something (i think its different from what you want): could a sword-character have a wielder as a focus? :o) And need a Mind Control test to be capable of using it's other powers?

Like, the poor guy grabs the sword. That allows the sword to use mind control. if mind control works, the sword can act.

Is this doable?That is, essentually what the point is here. I thought about the wielder being a focus but it doesn't quite work that way. :) I think the best option is the UBO, Must be UBO (-1/4). It gives it a higher Active cost and keeps it simple overall. It is only a couple of powers that offer require another to use in order for the power to be used. Most of them, the sword itself activates.

SSJ Archon

Oct 24th, '04, 10:13 AM

I would start with the basic build for a sword, then add on everything that makes it into a character, such as INT and EGO. For some reason, it always seems easier to build from the ground up, at least for me.

Out of the Fantasy Hero book, I'd start with a Long Sword, which is:
5 Body
5 Def
1D6+1 KHA, STR min 12
(The sword can't attack until you buy STR, SPD and maybe a few other things.)
And then add on everything else.

As a note, perhaps the idea of some one weilding the sword and attacking some one is akin to the sword making a move-through attack at 0 velocity. Instead of the sword making the roll, the movement is guided by the weilder, and thusly he makes the attack roll. This would be a very intresting topic for another thread.

In any case, if you don't want the sword to bleed, see if you can take the adder Does Not Bleed (+15 points) While the book says PC's can't take them, I think in this case any reasonable GM would Hand wave it :)

Sean Waters

Oct 24th, '04, 10:29 AM

You might be better off with a mental transform to, in effect, put your mind into the wielder. Mind control, as has been pointed out, will almost inevitably get broken out of on a regular basis. Or I suppose you could buy the wielder as a loyal follower...

As for the damage,I think your original idea works, subject to you, presumably, not being able to withold permission to use the damage - for instance if someone that you don't want weilding you and you have not controlled grabs you and starts stabbing your mates. You could do this with a physical disadvantage rather than a limitation on the cost of the power though.

BTW very much like the idea. Very original - even though it has been done with, for instance Stormbringer, it is never told from the point of view of the sentient weapon. Nearest you probably get is Crang (I think that was the name) in Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels.

Super Squirrel

Oct 24th, '04, 11:59 AM

I'll be posting the write-up tommorrow when I have a chance to get to my computer again.

S41NT

Oct 25th, '04, 04:57 AM

I'll be waiting!!!

Doc Democracy

Oct 25th, '04, 05:33 AM

I'll be posting the write-up tommorrow when I have a chance to get to my computer again.

It is an interesting slant at a character. I think I may have a go at the wielder as focus style of construction for comparisons sake..

zornwil

Oct 25th, '04, 11:56 AM

How is the character wielding the sword being enlisted? How does the sword get its follower/necessary being?

Super Squirrel

Oct 25th, '04, 07:26 PM

How is the character wielding the sword being enlisted? How does the sword get its follower/necessary being?
Apologies to not having the write-up yet. The more I look at the sheet, the more problems I notice. I'm still working on it.

How the sword has a follower: The sword is a part of a group. The sword has purchased Membership to represent this. One of the choosen from this group was given the task to wield the sword.

Super Squirrel

Oct 26th, '04, 05:01 AM

Shardik

Player: Joshua Keezer

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val </td><td>Char </td><td>Cost</td></tr><tr><td align="right">-25 </td><td>STR</td><td>-35</td></tr><tr><td align="right">20 </td><td>DEX</td><td>30</td></tr><tr><td align="right">38 </td><td>CON</td><td>56</td></tr><tr><td align="right">30 </td><td>BODY</td><td>40</td></tr><tr><td align="right">18 </td><td>INT</td><td>8</td></tr><tr><td align="right">30 </td><td>EGO</td><td>40</td></tr><tr><td align="right">20 </td><td>PRE</td><td>10</td></tr><tr><td align="right">4 </td><td>COM</td><td>-3</td></tr><tr><td></td><td> </td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">10 </td><td>PD</td><td>10</td></tr><tr><td align="right">10 </td><td>ED</td><td>2</td></tr><tr><td align="right">6 </td><td>SPD</td><td>30</td></tr><tr><td align="right">8 </td><td>REC</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">16 </td><td>END</td><td>-30</td></tr><tr><td align="right">49 </td><td>STUN</td><td>0</td></tr><td></td><td> </td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">0" </td><td>RUN</td><td>-12</td></tr><tr><td align="right">0" </td><td>SWIM</td><td>-2</td></tr><tr><td align="right">0" </td><td>LEAP</td><td>0</td></tr></table>Characteristics Cost: 144

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost </td><td>Power</td><td align="right">END</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">45 </td><td>LS (Total) </td><td valign="top" align="right">0</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">26 </td><td>The Wielder Shall Be Immortal: Healing BODY 1d6, Resurrection, Ranged (+1/2) (45 Active Points); Extra Time (Extra Phase, -3/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">17 </td><td>Invisibility to Smell/Taste Group and Detect Life , Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (26 Active Points); Always On (-1/2) </td><td valign="top" align="right">0</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">10 </td><td>Magical Blade: Damage Resistance (10 PD/10 ED) </td><td valign="top" align="right">0</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">33 </td><td>Bestowed to the Wielder: Multipower, 40-point reserve, all slots Usable By Other (+1/4) (50 Active Points); all slots Limited Power Must be Wielded to Use (-1/2) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u </td><td>1) Glowing Blade: Sight Group Images 1" radius (10 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-1/2), Limited Power Must be Wielded to Use (-1/2) </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">2u </td><td>2) Sword Strike: HKA 2d6 (30 Active Points); Limited Power Must be UBO (-1/4), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (User can only use 1 DC per 5 STR; -1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">40 </td><td>Mind of the Sword: Multipower, 40-point reserve </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">4u </td><td>1) Mind Ripple: Ego Attack 3d6 (Human class of minds), Invisible Power Effects, Source Only (Fully Invisible; +1/4) (37 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">2u </td><td>2) Telepathic Communication: Mind Link , Alien and Human classes of minds, Any Willing Target (25 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (No Range or Mental Lock On to Establish; -1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">0</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">2u </td><td>3) The Sword Beckons the Wielder: Mind Control 6d6 (Alien and Human classes of minds) (40 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Target must be holding the sword; -1), No Range (-1/2) </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr></table>Powers Cost: 182

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost </td><td>Skill</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0 </td><td>AK: Kingdom of York 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0 </td><td>Conversation 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0 </td><td>Deduction 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3 </td><td>KS: Famous Swords 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1 </td><td>KS: History of York 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0 </td><td>Language: English (completely fluent; literate) (4 Active Points) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3 </td><td>Persuasion 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">1 </td><td>Tactics 8- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3 </td><td>Teamwork 13- </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">2 </td><td>Weaponsmith (Swords And Daggers) 13- </td></tr></table>Skills Cost: 13

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost </td><td>Perk</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">3 </td><td>Fringe Benefit: Member of the York Clan </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15 </td><td>Follower: Kite, Wielder of Shardic 75+75</td></tr></table>Perks Cost: 18

Total Character Cost: 357

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val </td><td>Disadvantages</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15 </td><td>Dependence: Human Contact -30 Active Points from Affected Power (Very Common, 1 Hour) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15 </td><td>Distinctive Features: Sword (Not Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">25 </td><td>Physical Limitation: Sword for a Body (All the Time, Fully Impairing) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20 </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Fear of Being Abandoned (Common, Total) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20 </td><td>Psychological Limitation: Desire to Lift Bad Name (Common, Total) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">15 </td><td>Reputation: Bloody Thirsty Killing Blade that Possesses its Wielder, 14- (Extreme; Known Only To Alien Species or KS: Swords rolls) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">20 </td><td>Social Limitation: Character is a Sword (Frequently, Severe) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10 </td><td>Vulnerability: 2 x BODY Sonic Attacks (Uncommon) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">10 </td><td>Vulnerability: 2 x STUN Sonic Attacks (Uncommon) </td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">7 </td><td>Everyman Skill Buyback [Notes: Acting, Climbing, Paramedics, PS, Shadowing, Stealth, TF] </td></tr></table>
Disadvantage Points: 157

Base Points: 200
Experience Required: 0
Total Experience Available: 0
Experience Unspent: 0

mudpyr8

Oct 26th, '04, 05:47 AM

If points don't matter then I think that's fine. Something bugs me about this construct though... it seems like you are getting a lot of points for something that isn't necessarily appropriate (e.g. STR, STUN).

Questions: If the sword is destroyed, is Shardik? Does its essence move to another sword?

I see the sword more as an AI. Everything about how an AI is built works for this except the sword body. My thought would be that the sword is a vehicle and Shardik is an AI. If the sword is destroyed Shardik has no way to survive and fades away. If the sword is a vehicle, inherently it could be controled by whoever is touching it. If someone then escapes the mind control they can use the sword.

If building a body is really the way go, I would still do it as an automotan with an AI mind.

However, I think for practical purposes what you've built is fine and sounds like fun.

Super Squirrel

Oct 26th, '04, 05:56 AM

No, this is really a case of me wanting to play a sword for my alternative character in a campaign. :)

zornwil

Oct 26th, '04, 06:34 AM

Are you handwaving the UBO?

Can Shardik refuse to work for someone else who grabs him?

Doc Democracy

Oct 26th, '04, 06:39 AM

Are you handwaving the UBO?

Can Shardik refuse to work for someone else who grabs him?

I've been thinking about that and, when I get some time, will be submitting an alternative. Anyway. I'm not sure that you'd need UBO to get the effect of using a sword shaped object as a sword.

When a normal character is grabbed and used as a club they don't have to buy +2D6 HA UBO on their character sheet - it is a fact that they are being used as a club. If someone picked up a sentient sword and the sword could not control them and did not want to endow the wielder with special abilities then that weilder could exploit the physical structure of the sword to get normal additions to their damage.

No?

Doc

Super Squirrel

Oct 26th, '04, 06:53 AM

Are you handwaving the UBO?

Can Shardik refuse to work for someone else who grabs him?
UBO is on there. It is on the entire multipower instead of the powers within it itself.

zornwil

Oct 26th, '04, 07:15 AM

I've been thinking about that and, when I get some time, will be submitting an alternative. Anyway. I'm not sure that you'd need UBO to get the effect of using a sword shaped object as a sword.

When a normal character is grabbed and used as a club they don't have to buy +2D6 HA UBO on their character sheet - it is a fact that they are being used as a club. If someone picked up a sentient sword and the sword could not control them and did not want to endow the wielder with special abilities then that weilder could exploit the physical structure of the sword to get normal additions to their damage.

No?

Doc
I don't disagree in general re "as a club", but this is more like the character being a swiss army knife to another, potentially any other person, and, as SS states above and as I missed, he did use uBO. But as to your question about what one gains by picking up Shardik, I dunno, I only asked if Shardik can refuse to work, and SS forgot to answer that as perhaps he'll realize reading this reply.

The UBO thing is difficult though, as, to your point Doc, it's not as if Shardik can exercise his powers well without someone. He should have a disad for being immobile and incapable of acting on his own with running and such bought off and SPD bought down - which as I can see he mostly did. I wouldn't really expect UBO at that point, would just handwave if he bought the disad and did the other stuff.

Doc Democracy

Oct 26th, '04, 07:27 AM

I don't disagree in general re "as a club", but this is more like the character being a swiss army knife to another, potentially any other person, and, as SS states above and as I missed, he did use uBO. But as to your question about what one gains by picking up Shardik, I dunno, I only asked if Shardik can refuse to work, and SS forgot to answer that as perhaps he'll realize reading this reply.

In general people give a couple of extra dice HA for using someone as a club but if the character is sword shaped then surely it is then so easy to use ithe character as a sword.

The UBO thing is difficult though, as, to your point Doc, it's not as if Shardik can exercise his powers well without someone. He should have a disad for being immobile and incapable of acting on his own with running and such bought off and SPD bought down - which as I can see he mostly did. I wouldn't really expect UBO at that point, would just handwave if he bought the disad and did the other stuff.

As soon as I get time I'll sort out and post my version. I think I deal with some of those issues and will probably add in bits that Squirrel will throw out - coz they'll be my idea of the sword rather than his - but it's a fun concept for a character...

Doc

Super Squirrel

Oct 26th, '04, 07:32 AM

I don't disagree in general re "as a club", but this is more like the character being a swiss army knife to another, potentially any other person, and, as SS states above and as I missed, he did use uBO. But as to your question about what one gains by picking up Shardik, I dunno, I only asked if Shardik can refuse to work, and SS forgot to answer that as perhaps he'll realize reading this reply.

The UBO thing is difficult though, as, to your point Doc, it's not as if Shardik can exercise his powers well without someone. He should have a disad for being immobile and incapable of acting on his own with running and such bought off and SPD bought down - which as I can see he mostly did. I wouldn't really expect UBO at that point, would just handwave if he bought the disad and did the other stuff.The big problem with Shardik is the fact building a living sword has some many requirements that by the time you get to what you want it to have, you don't have much left to work with. I have most of that written off already in background. The Sword, Shardik was forged in battle when King Shardik died fighting a powerful demon. The sword was taken by the demons and used in battle against many alien races giving it is evil reputation. However, in truth, Shardik was being used against his will for those kills, most of his powers were never discovered because he refused to grant his additional powers or even show them. In fact, his Mind Control should be telepathic but was too costly for it. I figured instead the Mind Link to give the commands would be good enough for now.

The sword does have its own powers and it is of its own free action. Kite, for example, could face a powerful PRE Attack and stop stunned in battle. But the Ego of the sword would allow Shardik to slash at mentally. Or, Kite could be struck by a 12d6 or great attack sending him to the floor. The sword would still be useful.

Doc Democracy

Oct 27th, '04, 12:35 AM

Isn't amazing how a new baby just sucks your time away. I wrote notes for a different version of the sword on the way back hjome on the train. I got home at 6:15pm didn't go to bed until 11:30pm and I still didn't get time to haul out my book and stat up my notes...

Anyway, I'll give you my rough thoughts instead.

I thought that if the sword was to be my character then I should stat it up as if the sword was wielded by someone - which means that I would purchase STR. (I thought that buying STR down to -35 wasn't the way I'd go about it - when the sword isn't wielded does that mean it can exert some physical influence?) Instead I bought most of the characteristics as 'only when wielded' and purchased STR 30. That does increase REC and STUN but involves spending more points. I also didn't save as much on the END as I thought that would be used by my character.

I bought every characteristic as 'only when wielded' as that indicates the fact that when there is no-one holding the sword then the ability does not exist - so only BODY, INT, EGO, PD and ED would be present and SPD would be reduced to 1.

Rather than buying off running etc I also bought that as 'only when wielded' but wanted to cost out what buying all his senses as only when wielded would be as well.

Of the powers I thought that Life Support and Damage Resistance would be omni-present, though was wondering if the Life Support should protect the wielder as well as the sword - potentially some savings there I think.

I was wondering why Squirrel bought the Bestowed on Wielder multipower as there is only two powers and both can be on at full power. I suppose this allows for development in the future but it does cost points right now. :)

The other thing I was going to look at was other powers for the Mind of the Sword. I thought that if the sword was lost it should be able to seek out potential wielders and control them. Thus I thought there should be some kind of Detect Human Life targetting sense there. There should also be a transform - to add a disad 'covets the sword' and then an ongoing transform to take over the wielder. If the sword cannot take over the wielder then it has to engineer a transfer to another wielder - obviously using the covet transform.

I was also looking to add in a disadvantage whereby the sword might 'burn-out' its wielder. If the wielder had fewer points in characteristics then the sword would slowly kill them - I was thinking the wielder would lose one BODY per month for every 10% fewer points. I thought this would be a decent 20 point physical limitation.

I was also going to limit BODY - for every BODY the wielder lost then the SWORD would have one BODY suppressed - and when the sword lost 50% of its BODY the wielder would die. Rough thoughts but I thought good for the roleplay elements of the character.

As my version makes the wielder essentially 'invisible' mechanics wise I also thought that the sword would take 30 points worth fo limitations associated with the wielder - most likely HUNTEDS and REPUTATION stuff but possibly some Physical limitations and psychological stuff too.

Doc

TaxiMan

Oct 27th, '04, 06:10 AM

In a superhero game, a character doesn't have to buy a power UBO for a brick to grab him and swing away. If your character is a sword and is built as such, then his "sword-ness" doesn't go away just because he's grabbed by someone not under his control. Pay for all the powers the character can use (i.e. when in control of the wielder). But if this really is a character, and is unwilling to be used against his / it's will, ...

I'd say you don't need to stat it out. Just say "I'm a broad sword" and use those stats.

Super Squirrel

Oct 27th, '04, 06:26 AM

A couple of things here. First, I don't see why I should have any points in STR if the sword does not have the ability to move. STR affects how much force you can exert. That includes lifting, pushing, throwing etc. The other function of STR is to calculate your PD.

The only reason I kept my DEX is because eventually the sword will purchase a OCV based attack power it can use independently and also so that the sword has a DCV for when something decided to attack it.

Super Squirrel

Oct 27th, '04, 06:34 AM

Actually, pg. 22 of FREd says "Characters with a DEX of -30 or less can take no physical actions." Should I take the character down to -30 DEX and use the points to buy straight SPD and DCV and just leave OCV at 0?

Doc Democracy

Oct 27th, '04, 06:50 AM

Actually, pg. 22 of FREd says "Characters with a DEX of -30 or less can take no physical actions." Should I take the character down to -30 DEX and use the points to buy straight SPD and DCV and just leave OCV at 0?

As GM I would remove the characteristics from your character sheet - just like INT and EGO for automatons. I wouldn't allow you to buy back the characteristics and get points from it.

My reasoning was that the character would control the victim and exert STR through that. In my (thoroughly sketchy) write up I gave the character 30 STR and assumed that all my wielders would have 30 STR (normals bolstered by the sword or those with greater STR hindered in its use by the mind control).

However, if your GM is happy with you selling back the STR then I think he should allow the (far more lucrative) selling back of DEX.

Doc

zornwil

Oct 27th, '04, 06:55 AM

As GM I would remove the characteristics from your character sheet - just like INT and EGO for automatons. I wouldn't allow you to buy back the characteristics and get points from it.

My reasoning was that the character would control the victim and exert STR through that. In my (thoroughly sketchy) write up I gave the character 30 STR and assumed that all my wielders would have 30 STR (normals bolstered by the sword or those with greater STR hindered in its use by the mind control).

However, if your GM is happy with you selling back the STR then I think he should allow the (far more lucrative) selling back of DEX.

Doc
I'd go with Doc's suggestion. They are attributes you just don't have. However, I'd give some bonus points given the limitations of the character, probably not just through disads, either, but probably some blanket # of points. Depending a bit on how readily and how ready-made sword wielders are.

Doc Democracy

Oct 27th, '04, 07:27 AM

I'd go with Doc's suggestion. They are attributes you just don't have. However, I'd give some bonus points given the limitations of the character, probably not just through disads, either, but probably some blanket # of points. Depending a bit on how readily and how ready-made sword wielders are.

Perhaps the powers you use to find new wielders could be free? :)

Super Squirrel

Oct 27th, '04, 01:52 PM

As GM I would remove the characteristics from your character sheet - just like INT and EGO for automatons. I wouldn't allow you to buy back the characteristics and get points from it.

My reasoning was that the character would control the victim and exert STR through that. In my (thoroughly sketchy) write up I gave the character 30 STR and assumed that all my wielders would have 30 STR (normals bolstered by the sword or those with greater STR hindered in its use by the mind control).I disagree with you here. I'll explain with an example.

Joe Mentalist tells a brick through a Mind Control to go smash down a wall. Joe Mentalist is now free to do other actions.

Shardik tells a wielder to swing the sword at XXX with a Mind Control. Shardik is now free to do other actions.

Why does Joe get to keep STR when Shardik has to remove it from the sheet? Shardik is paying for the RKA as UBO. Shardik also is paying for the PD to make up for the selling off of STR.

Steve Long has indicated that it is valid to sell back Everyman skills you do not have for a point a piece, so I can't see why if your building a character like this, you can't sell back the characteristics.

Assume for the moment that down the road I decide the sword is powerful that it can use Gliding. It should have STR on the sheet to help indicate how much weight it can lift.

Oh, Doc Democracy, the idea for "not matching X in BODY" will come up in another possessing weapon I'm building but not Shardik.

Doc Democracy

Oct 27th, '04, 02:42 PM

I disagree with you here. I'll explain with an example.

Joe Mentalist tells a brick through a Mind Control to go smash down a wall. Joe Mentalist is now free to do other actions.

Shardik tells a wielder to swing the sword at XXX with a Mind Control. Shardik is now free to do other actions.

Why does Joe get to keep STR when Shardik has to remove it from the sheet? Shardik is paying for the RKA as UBO. Shardik also is paying for the PD to make up for the selling off of STR.

I'd say that Joe gets to keep the STR because it is part of him. He is a person who has STR. Shardik is a sword, that does not have STR - not a miniscule amount such as -35 but none at all.

Characteristics are a special case - not like skills. As I said, automatons don't sell back their STUN - it just doesn't exist.

Neither is Shardik paying PD for having -25 STR just for having 0 STR.

But, it is a GM's call. In my game I wouldn't give you points for selling it off. If your GM does the that's cool.

Assume for the moment that down the road I decide the sword is powerful that it can use Gliding. It should have STR on the sheet to help indicate how much weight it can lift.

How does the sword lift anything? How does it manage it? A person uses its hands and exerts strength, how does the sword manage it?

Gliding doesn't mention STR. If the sword conferred gliding on the wielder then it would be whatever STR the wielder has. If the sword has no STR then it cannot lift anything.

Doc

zornwil

Oct 27th, '04, 02:46 PM

Good points SS.

I do think, though, you have to figure out whether the sword has a characteristic or not. The rules for AIs do not cover selling back points for characteristics not used because they are irrelevant, whereas the example of someone selling back everyman skills is different in that it is (or should be, to get point) relevant. I'll leave it at that as I'm still not sure where you want to go with the sword's abilities to act independently. I would say to sell back mobility and such as those are real losses. But, for example, if the sword has no method of CON (meaning also a CON drain would have no effect) then I'd say the char is just non-operative, no points for or against, even though there is an effect on ED. I could see selling the ED points back.

I think on the whole it's easiest to do what I've done with similar situations - not buy the powers as UBO since the sword (presumably) can't use those powers at the same time anyway and the complexity is such it may as well be hand-waved. Any powers which the sword has which can be used aganist its will I'd do a limited Independent lim, probably -1/2 or -1/4, depending on the circumstances you perceive as likely. Powers no one else can use of course are paid for normally.