Clairvoyance, Does Knockback

[BobGreenwade]

I just noticed that this combination is possible in the current version. Somehow that just doesn't seem right.... ;)

[Simon]

Technically, there's nothing wrong with that. I suspect you'd be hard-pressed to define a case in which it made any sense, but there's nothing illegal about it, AFAIK.

[BobGreenwade]

Actually, I'm hard-pressed to figure out how it would be applied. Clairvoyance is a Sensory Power, after all; I'm pretty sure (not having my FREd with me) that Does Knockback only works with Attack Powers. At least, there'd have to be some dice for there to be any BODY....

Maybe this ought to be brought to Steve's attention....

[Simon]

If it doesn't make sense for the ability to take the Advantage, then don't take it.

Clairsentience is a "targeted ability" in that it (generally) requires a "to-hit" roll to use. While the write up in 5E of Does KB states that it makes an Attack Power which normally does not do KB do KB, there have been some published examples of non-Attack Powers to which this has been applied, and so the "Attack Power only" restriction had to be relaxed on the ability -- it was changed to solely check if the ability is targeted or not.

I'm sorry if this upsets you...but there's not much to say other than "don't take the Advantage if it doesn't make sense"

If you're the GM and you're worried that a player will turn in a writeup with Clairsentience which does KB, either ask said player to justify the "Does KB" part of the ability or tell them to get rid of it.

[KA.]

Well, just as an intellectual exercise . . .

It could be something like the "Wizard Eye" spell, where a disembodied eye manifests itself and flys around looking at things and transmitting back to the caster.

If, for whatever reason, the "eye" ran into someone, since it must move pretty fast (unless you buy this with "Extra Time", if you assume that the "eye" goes from where the caster is, to the target area, "instantly", it must really be moving) I suppose it could knock them backwards.

I would probably make some ruling about this, however, to keep it from being abused.

Something like "If your clairsentience does Knockback, because of some type of physical manifestation that does the "spying" for you (a tiny, jet-propelled camera, a Wizard eye, a trained Bird with telepathy) then that "manifestation" can also be traced back to your position, stopped by Force Walls, etc.

This would have nothing to do with the power being bought through a "Focus" necessarily. I would just say that if it can do Knockback, there has to be "something" there.

KA.

[BobGreenwade]

While the write up in 5E of Does KB states that it makes an Attack Power which normally does not do KB do KB, there have been some published examples of non-Attack Powers to which this has been applied...Okay, I wasn't aware of this. Could you (or someone) cite some specific examples, please? I'd be interested in reading up on them.

[BobGreenwade]

If, for whatever reason, the "eye" ran into someone, since it must move pretty fast (unless you buy this with "Extra Time", if you assume that the "eye" goes from where the caster is, to the target area, "instantly", it must really be moving) I suppose it could knock them backwards.I'm actually less concerned about the Special Effects than I am about the application. How does one determine how much Knockback is done by Clairsentience, or any other Power without a Damage Roll?

[Simon]

Okay, I wasn't aware of this. Could you (or someone) cite some specific examples, please? I'd be interested in reading up on them.
Not sure where they are, anymore. I just know that I had to remove the "Attack Power only" restriction from Does Knockback in order to accomodate Power constructs that Steve had determined were legal.

Maybe in the rules questions forum, maybe in the FAQ, maybe in one or more of the supplements.....

[JeffreyWKramer]

Isn't there an example of someone in the books who bought their PRE with the Does Knockback Advantage? The idea would be to literally bowl someone over with a PRE Attack.

[OddHat]

Isn't there an example of someone in the books who bought their PRE with the Does Knockback Advantage? The idea would be to literally bowl someone over with a PRE Attack.

I loved that one. Add Does Body, and you have someone who can smash walls down by giving one good thrust with her hips. :D

[TaxiMan]

I'm actually less concerned about the Special Effects than I am about the application. How does one determine how much Knockback is done by Clairsentience, or any other Power without a Damage Roll?

What he said. Though this isn't about house rules, I suppose you could take the active points and divide by 5 ....

[Killer Shrike]

You could apply it Bob, but it's meaningless since Clairvoyance has no active effect.

Some of the "Targeted but not Attack" Powers that you could apply Does KB to are Aid and Healing for instance.

As an aside I actually had a player apply Does KB to Healing on a jokey character -- a TV Evangelist homage.

From Dan's perspective he needs some kind of "hook" to determine if the Does KB Advantage is legal for a Power. Since the "ATTACK" Power hook doesnt catch all cases, "Targeted" is a logical fall back.

Unfortunately there might be a Power like Clairsentience which must be targeted that slips thru on that one, but that's an acceptible case IMO, since it doesnt actually do anything even if you apply it.

[OddHat]

You could apply it Bob, but it's meaningless since Clairvoyance has no active effect.

I was refering to PRE with Does Knockback, not Clair + DKB. In the case of Clai + DKB, you are correct. :)

[Killer Shrike]

I was refering to PRE with Does Knockback, not Clair + DKB. In the case of Clai + DKB, you are correct. :)
Not YOU Bob, the OTHER Bob -- Bob Greenwade

There you go giving away your secret ID again :rolleyes: :eg:

[OddHat]

Not YOU Bob, the OTHER Bob -- Bob Greenwade

There you go giving away your secret ID again :rolleyes: :eg:

Darn. I'm just not good at this Secret Identity thing. ;)

[KA.]

Well, I got an answer from Steve.
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=496819#post496819

I will tell you that he makes a Solomon-like effort to allow for the legality of
this without getting dragged into it himself.
:thumbup:

KA.

[Rapier]

Well, I got an answer from Steve.
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=496819#post496819

I will tell you that he makes a Solomon-like effort to allow for the legality of
this without getting dragged into it himself.
You can take the horse to the stream, but you can't make the lawyer get a drink of water...or something like that! :)

Assuming we are talking a power with some kind of die roll, I would just count the BODY on the dice and determine KB like normal. If there is no die roll, I would probably go with 5 base points* and roll 1 die for each 5 pts.

* I would define base points as the initial cost of the power (including adders...perhaps) excluding advantages. Even though I can't think of any non-die roll power that I would let do KB. That would be one CARAZY concept.