held action

[steph]

i got a mage with speed 2 (6,12) in phase 6 i hold my action ......and a later phase 8 another mage cast me a fire ball .....i use my action to dispel is fire ball.....my question is: who goes first? the one with the better ego or me because is my held turn
i got problem with all held action (attack)
stef the french and socialism canadian
i hope one day the hero system gonna have a version in french:))

[Ben Seeman]

If you want to interrupt an opponents action with your held aciton, you both need to "DEX off", meaning you both make dex rolls and whoever makes it by more goes first. But if your actions are using your EGO then you have to "EGO off". It can also be mixed if you are attacking on your EGO and the opponent is attacking on his DEX.

[CrosshairCollie]

Ben is correct; as a house rule, though, I normally let a purely defensive maneuver get priority over the attack, so if you Hold your action, then decide to Dodge, you don't have to make Dex rolls.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Ben's answer is correct according to the rules. Personally, as a GM, I would allow you to go first automatically because you're using the Dispel defensively... you're directly trying to protect yourself by intercepting an incoming attack. But this would be my GM fiat... not the rules. :)

[JMHammer]

I'm with Derek... sort of. I'd have the two characters "DEX off" unless the character attempting to make the defensive action chooses to Abort in which case the Dispel automatically takes effect before the attack can do its thing. In the specific case you describe, there is no practical penalty to the defender for Aborting since he is already holding an action and Dispel is an attack action which would end his phase anyway.

The rules are a good guideline but your GM should handle this as he sees best for his game, as long as he does so consistently in every identical case.

John H

[Derek Hiemforth]

I'm with Derek... sort of. I'd have the two characters "DEX off" unless the character attempting to make the defensive action chooses to Abort in which case the Dispel automatically takes effect before the attack can do its thing. In the specific case you describe, there is no practical penalty to the defender for Aborting since he is already holding an action and Dispel is an attack action which would end his phase anyway.Oh, yeah, absolutely. I would treat it as an Abort too. A related question is whether a GM should allow this kind of "counterspell" Abort if the caster doesn't have a Phase saved. I'd be inclined to say no, but not for any reason I can articulate well at the moment. It just seems different somehow. :)

[TaxiMan]

I'd let the PC go first because the defensive maneuver is dramatic and he sacrificed a Phase to do it. Even if the Phase is held or aborted, it'd still be the same.

The villians get to go first only if that makes the game fun (e.g. I know the PCs can whip the guy, but Dispelling a PC's fireball will get them fired up about the combat - next time, the villian will be "too slow").

[steph]

thanks guys it more clear for me
stef the french canadian
excuse my english

[Rapier]

If you want to interrupt an opponents action with your held aciton, you both need to "DEX off", meaning you both make dex rolls and whoever makes it by more goes first. But if your actions are using your EGO then you have to "EGO off". It can also be mixed if you are attacking on your EGO and the opponent is attacking on his DEX.
Technically correct. However, I would usually let the Dispel go off first without the DEX Off. The only hinge would be WHY the character held on action. I don't let characters take "open held actions." The longest you can hold an open action is until the end of the phase.

Player: I'm holding my action.
GM: For?
Player: Um, because I want to see what happens next.
GM: No. You can only hold for a specific sequence of events.
Player: Ok, I am holding to fire a magic blast until they Evil Wizard Guy pokes his head around the corner.
GM: Good enough.
GM: Wizard #2, casts a fireball at you.
Player: I Dispel with my held action.
GM: No you don't. :)

I think it add's a bit more spice to the combat and a touch of realism. It also works around those players who try to "work the system" by holding an action until a phase when its convenient (the old "I take my held action at the beginning of Phase 1 because that way noone else gets an action"). I also frown on Haymakers launched in Phase 12. The system should not drive a character's actions, it should be the other way around.

[Korvar]

I tend to allow people with held full phases to do what they want with it, assuming they use half of that phase essentially for a perception roll. Held half phases have to be declared ahead of time.

[steph]

hey rapier very good idea i keep it
stef the french canadian
excuse my english again

[Tom Carman]

I also frown on Haymakers launched in Phase 12. The system should not drive a character's actions, it should be the other way around.
Oh, let them have their Phase 12 Haymakers. Just fine them their Post-12 recovery when they do it. (They are in the middle of launching an attack, so obviously they are not pausing to catch their breath...)

[Ben Seeman]

Oh, let them have their Phase 12 Haymakers. Just fine them their Post-12 recovery when they do it. (They are in the middle of launching an attack, so obviously they are not pausing to catch their breath...)
Very nice. :)

[Rapier]

Oh, let them have their Phase 12 Haymakers. Just fine them their Post-12 recovery when they do it. (They are in the middle of launching an attack, so obviously they are not pausing to catch their breath...)
Hmmm. I like that!

[JMHammer]

Instead of disallowing a post-12 Recovery (which, the way I look at it, represents the Recovery one accumulates over 12 segments, not a "breather" one takes every 12 seconds simultaneously with everyone else), consider:

-Characters who act after the Haymakering character in Segment 12 only have to move a little bit, or score a Knockdown (Knockback even in the same hex - with no travel at all - will do), to make the Haymaker and the Endurance spent on it void.
-If the target has a Held Action, perhaps because he has a higher Dexterity than the Haymakering character, he can perform as above.
-The target character can Abort in Segment 1 to a number of actions, the most universal of which is Dive for Cover. With just a successful roll, relatively easy since only 1" of travel is needed, the Haymaker and the Endurance spent on it are void. And since this is an Abort, it automatically occurs before the Haymaker even if the Haymaker weren't the absolute last action in the segment subsequent to the segment in which it is launched.
-Villains can make use of the Speed chart, too...

John H

[mudpyr8]

Never had a problem with open-ended held actions.
Players only do a Haymaker when they have a total advantage - it's too easy to DfC on the next segment and completely avoid it.

[mudpyr8]

We also play with a 3 pt Talent called Counterspell which allows a mage to abort to any spell used in a defensive manner. This allows for a defensive entangle (i.e. wall) and other things, while accounting for slightly increased utility, yet not making such an ability too expensive that a dedicated mage would most certainly have it.

[Rapier]

We also play with a 3 pt Talent called Counterspell which allows a mage to abort to any spell used in a defensive manner. This allows for a defensive entangle (i.e. wall) and other things, while accounting for slightly increased utility, yet not making such an ability too expensive that a dedicated mage would most certainly have it.
I allow the same thing, but without the Talent. I've had people who have "Gone Defensive" (ie held an action to defend against incoming attacks) to use TK to throw an object into the path of incoming spell, create a force wall to block a spell, dispel an incoming spell and a few other things which are entirely defensive in nature...even if not so in SFX or by power.

I think actions like this are necessary in a heroic level game. The potential to dish out vast quantities of BODY (ESPECIALLY with spells) all but demands a "fudging" of the rules in favour of defense. Of course, the villains get to do this too.

I've got to say that it certainly does liven up combat. I'm gonna mull it over. I might add a talent, or might just let things lie as they do. Good thoughts though, good thoughts.

[Yesman]

I once had a notion to develop a martial art for dueling wizards that included a manuever that allowed an abort to dispell; as well as ranged attacks, and a few other sundry maneuvers. I was wary of stepping so far afield of the cannon rules regarding aborting to an attack power, so I came up with a stop-gap measure until I could think the ramifications of such a thing through. Very cheap dex roll skill levels, only for purposes of held action interruptions involving dispells. I think I made: Only for Dispell Interupts (-2)

Not quite the same thing, but the players thought it was OK enough.

[arcady]

I personally would stick with the Dex roll off, the harsh ruling of the official rules, because it makes more logical sense.

Even when we try to get the drop on someone we don't always suceed - I've been on the losing as well as winning end of that enough times to know such.

The other option is perhaps more hero favoring, but I tend to prefer a hard outlook where neither success nor failure is ever a given.

[Rapier]

I personally would stick with the Dex roll off, the harsh ruling of the official rules, because it makes more logical sense.

Even when we try to get the drop on someone we don't always suceed - I've been on the losing as well as winning end of that enough times to know such.

The other option is perhaps more hero favoring, but I tend to prefer a hard outlook where neither success nor failure is ever a given.
I'm almost thinking that, especially in FH, a good skill would be:

PS: Magical Combat

I can't decide if its INT or DEX based (maybe the average of both).

Having given it a little more thought I'm thinking this:

Mage A casts Fireball at Mage B
Mage B announces he is aborting to defense
Mage A rolls his DEX (since he doesn't have PS: Magical Combat) at -3 (since he doesn't have Magical Combat)
Mage B rolls his PS: Magical Combat.
Whomever wins the roll off, has their action take effect first.

Or maybe instead of PS: Magical Combat use Lightning Reflexes (for Magical Combat Only). So many options. Definately needs some further thought. I do like the fact that defensive actions don't always get precedence. The only reason we've been using it that way for so long was after the Hero concept of DEF is always cheaper than attacks.

[Yesman]

of course, if you've got the points to burn (and the GM trusts you like a brother) you could slap an appropriate trigger and detect on that dispell. no dex off, and no held action to boot. (unless triggers need dex-offs....? I'll have to double-check that.) still, no held action...