DEX is used too much

[taxboy4]

I love Fantasy Hero as a system (I bombard our city's RPG discussion board with my praise :)) but I think DEX is used too much.

We should have Agility and Quickness that make up the DEX skill.

Agility for how agile you are and...

Quickness for your reflex speed.

Its common to be quick but not necessarily agile.

I don't like how Dex is the sole base skill to affect base OCV and DCV. I want thieves (for example) to be agile etc without having a base OCV of 6 or 7!!!

Why can't Intelligent affect OCV or intelligence?

btw, i really hate hit points and love how FH does Body and Stun

[Vanguard]

One way you could go is with Lightning Reflexes.

Gives your characters "effective" dex's for going first in a phase but other then that they have to buy everything else through skill levels.

(I personally like this idea since, especially in a Heroic/Fantasy game, your characters should be SKILLED not just have raw physical abilitiy).

[CourtFool]

We should have Agility and Quickness that make up the DEX skill.

I don't like how Dex is the sole base skill to affect base OCV and DCV. I want thieves (for example) to be agile etc without having a base OCV of 6 or 7!!!

I see your point but I really do not want more stats than Hero already has. Also, if we start breaking up DEX (Agility, Eye-Hand Cordination, Manual Dexterity and Quickness) then we would have to break up the other stats as well Reasoning, Knowledge, Education, ect.

If you would like your thieves to be agile without having an OCV of 7, but Skill Levels for all DEX related skills for 5pts instead of DEX itself. This may not seem obvious at first if you are coming from the assumption that Skill Levels explicitly mean training/experience. Just chalk it up as agility without combat effectiveness.

I am curious why you do not want an agile thief to have a good Combat Value? For me, the high DEX = Good CV is perfect for simulating the lightly armored, wily theif.

[taxboy4]

I'm not saying I don't want a theif to have a good CV but by having Dex as a primary stat to generate his "clas" skills he is by default damn good with all weapons.

Simply by having high dex.

I'm thinking about leaving dex as is for all dex skills etc but having a different way to calc cv's - maybe unlink them in total from Dex - tho then I'd need to cheapen Dex cost down a little.

Ahhh this is a big a problem as Bloody Block.

[CourtFool]

I am still not understanding why this is a problem. Anyone with a high DEX has good OCV/DCV. Of course they still need to buy weapon familiarities or they are at -3 with any weapons. Granted with a 7 OCV/DCV this still gives them a 4 OCV vrs. someone with a 10 DEX and weapon familiarity for a 3 OCV.

Give your thieves +2 Skill Levels with All DEX related skills for 10pts and leave their DEX at 10. Now all their 'class' skills are the same, but they are not as combat effective nor as fast. This is a lot easier than trying to change the game mechanics of DEX and trying to balance cost.

How long have you been playing Hero? Did you mostly play D&D before Hero? The reason I ask is because this sounds like you want to model D&D classes more closely where thieves are less effective in combat than fighters. If that is the feel you are going for I really think you should give the Skill Levels a try.

[Hugh Neilson]

I agree with most of the other comments above. Even if you're trying to model D&D, how much does a fighter have over a thief as a starting character anyway?

Well, the fighter has a base attack bonus of +1, where the thief has 0. That's easily viewed as +1 OCV for the fighter. The thief ih D&D gets no bonus to hit from DEX, but the thief in Hero gets a bonus to hit, so there is a difference there, but the Hero fighter can buy, say, two levels with OCV only in HTH combat for 6 points. After the "speed rebate", that's what the thief spent on +3 DEX to get +1 OCV and DCV.

Remember that D&D blends two things into the chances to hit. It includes the combat skill thatenables both fighter and thief to connect (raw and trained skill, so DEX and levels in Hero terms) AND the likelihood of puncturing the target's armor/defenses (in Hero, this is damage and defenses, separate from the roll to hit). The thief is quite good at the former (assuming a high DEX)., but generally low STR and lightly armed, so he'll hit a heavily armored opponent, but his attack will often bounce off those defenses. A hit that does no damage, in Hero terms, but a miss in D&D terms.

[Derek Hiemforth]

If your concern is that DEX alone makes a thief too good in combat, maybe the answer is to make non-thieves better in combat.

In other words, sure a high-DEX thief may have a base OCV of 6 or 7, but maybe you tell him he can't buy any Combat Skill Levels (because combat isn't his specialty). But the lower-DEX warrior, who only has a base OCV of 4 or 5, can buy several Combat Skill Levels with his favored weapons, resulting in a final OCV of 8 or 9.

Defensively, the nimble thief has (and should have) a higher base DCV. But the warrior might wear armor that gives him more DEF and a use a shield that helps improve his DCV.

[Killer Shrike]

I go into this subject a bit in this document here:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion3e/Class3e/rogues.shtml

Scroll down a bit and look under "Dextrous".

[taxboy4]

If your concern is that DEX alone makes a thief too good in combat, maybe the answer is to make non-thieves better in combat.

In other words, sure a high-DEX thief may have a base OCV of 6 or 7, but maybe you tell him he can't buy any Combat Skill Levels (because combat isn't his specialty). But the lower-DEX warrior, who only has a base OCV of 4 or 5, can buy several Combat Skill Levels with his favored weapons, resulting in a final OCV of 8 or 9.

Defensively, the nimble thief has (and should have) a higher base DCV. But the warrior might wear armor that gives him more DEF and a use a shield that helps improve his DCV.

Good thoughts all but

1) Even tho i grew up on AD&D I detest its inflexibility , and don't get me started on Levels, hit points etc etc!! I do still think in rough class groupings tho :)

2) Answer me this, why should someone with good dex be better at fighting - attack, I understand might (should) be better at avoiding getting hit - I'm not convinced OCV and DCV should be linked to the same characteristic.

3) I have been playing Hero for about 18 months and love the game but it still isn't perfect

4) The idea re Thives having 10 DEx and buying +2 for all DEx skills for 10 points is a good idea but taking it to a logical conclusion why not unhook a lot of other things from dex and make them skill based purchases - for a very flexible system I think DEx is not that flexible - affects way too much.

[bluegodjanus]

2) Answer me this, why should someone with good dex be better at fighting - attack, I understand might (should) be better at avoiding getting hit - I'm not convinced OCV and DCV should be linked to the same characteristic.

I'm quite in favour of using dexterity to hit an opponent (one of my many qualms with D&D/D20). I feel it should be so because the attack roll (in HERO, as well as other games using the same logic for dex to hit) represents you connecting your weapon with the other guy. This is purely a contest between how quick you are with the weapon and how quick he is in moving away. Now, obviously, training has a big effect on the outcome here (on both sides), but at its core level it's a contest of speed.

[Hugh Neilson]

Now, obviously, training has a big effect on the outcome here (on both sides), but at its core level it's a contest of speed.

DEX to some extent equalss natural, untrained skill. Levels show training.

TO TAXBOY4: What stat would you suggest replace DEX for OCV determination? In D&D, it would be STR, but that's becaudse STR punches through armor, not because it makes it easier to connect with a dodging target. CON, BOD, EGO, PRE, COM? Clearly not. Someone had suggested INT, but is being smarter equivalent to being better in combat? And now we have wizards with OCV superior to warriors.

DEX is the only relevant stat for OCV. Having faster reaction time and better eye-hand co-ordination logically assists in both avoiding attacks by others and landing blows on others trying to avoid being hit. [Even D&D acknowledges this half way by making DEX relevant in missile fire.]

[CrosshairCollie]

DEX is really the only thing that does outright represent agility and quickness; splitting the two becomes a matter of buying things like Lightning Reflexes or Skill Levels. As a side-note, I actually think of Speed as 'reflex time'; how often you get to react to the environment around you.

Heck, you could even have a thief who took a Psychological Limitation: Panics In Combat, CVs are halved, so that 20 DEX only gets him a 4. This definitely screws his survivability, though, since his DCV is likely his only defense, where a 14 DEX fighter can be wearing armor, *and* can use the points that a thief spends on 'thiefing skills' on Martial Arts and Combat Levels.

[Old Man]

2) Answer me this, why should someone with good dex be better at fighting - attack, I understand might (should) be better at avoiding getting hit - I'm not convinced OCV and DCV should be linked to the same characteristic.

I've toyed with the idea of breaking up DEX into Agility and Coordination, with the former determining DCV and the latter with OCV (at least for missile weapons).

3) I have been playing Hero for about 18 months and love the game but it still isn't perfect

That's for sure.

4) The idea re Thives having 10 DEx and buying +2 for all DEx skills for 10 points is a good idea but taking it to a logical conclusion why not unhook a lot of other things from dex and make them skill based purchases - for a very flexible system I think DEx is not that flexible - affects way too much.

One of the ancient unresolved debates about the Hero system is the importance of DEX. DEX is hooked into OCV, DCV, SPD, and a good number of skills, and as such it's a really good deal for 3 character points.

[taxboy4]

DEX to some extent equalss natural, untrained skill. Levels show training.

TO TAXBOY4: What stat would you suggest replace DEX for OCV determination? In D&D, it would be STR, but that's becaudse STR punches through armor, not because it makes it easier to connect with a dodging target. CON, BOD, EGO, PRE, COM? Clearly not. Someone had suggested INT, but is being smarter equivalent to being better in combat? And now we have wizards with OCV superior to warriors.

DEX is the only relevant stat for OCV. Having faster reaction time and better eye-hand co-ordination logically assists in both avoiding attacks by others and landing blows on others trying to avoid being hit. [Even D&D acknowledges this half way by making DEX relevant in missile fire.]

I toy with not having any base stat and only skill base but that doesn't allow for natural attributes - I suspect I prefer a mix of stats - not just Dex

[Hyper-Man]

It might be helpful to examine DEX's effect on the DCV of a Thief vs. the effect for a Fighter. A Fighter wearing armor and a helmet will have problems that the Thief will not:


encumberance from heavy armor can lower DCV
helmets may impair perception (sight and/or hearing) and unperceived attacks will lower your DCV (-1 to 1/2 DCV)
This is where the distinction between Thieves and Fighters gets very fuzzy when using the HERO system. It is primarily a distinction of how the characters are played instead of what "class" they are.

And not to disregard OCV. The same high DEX Theif might have a great base OCV and even the weapon familiarity to use that Great Sword but if he doesn't have the minimum STR he will lose OCV accordingly.

[CourtFool]

2) Answer me this, why should someone with good dex be better at fighting - attack, I understand might (should) be better at avoiding getting hit - I'm not convinced OCV and DCV should be linked to the same characteristic.

4) The idea re Thives having 10 DEx and buying +2 for all DEx skills for 10 points is a good idea but taking it to a logical conclusion why not unhook a lot of other things from dex and make them skill based purchases - for a very flexible system I think DEx is not that flexible - affects way too much.
On point 2, you and I will have to agree to disagree. I believe DEX reflects agility and eye hand coordination and should be the base for hitting and avoiding being hit. This has never really been a problem for me since 'fighters' just load up on DEX and/or Combat Skill Levels.

On point 4, many agree that DEX is too cheap. Of course many argue that a few other stats are too cheap as well.

If you want to take the time to break out DEX and rebalance everything to your liking then go for it. Everyone has their own house rules. I was merely offering a 'quick fix' that would not require too much extra work.

[arcady]

2) Answer me this, why should someone with good dex be better at fighting - attack, I understand might (should) be better at avoiding getting hit - I'm not convinced OCV and DCV should be linked to the same characteristic.Because that's how it is in the real world?

Go get in a few fights...

Having grown up in the inner city I can say with confidence that you'll find the faster people have a serious edge over everyone else - even the strong ones.

Look at professional fighters - they muscle up for speed, not power. Power is important, but speed comes first. Boxers don't look like WWE stars for a reason.

[taxboy4]

Because that's how it is in the real world?

Go get in a few fights...

Having grown up in the inner city I can say with confidence that you'll find the faster people have a serious edge over everyone else - even the strong ones.

Look at professional fighters - they muscle up for speed, not power. Power is important, but speed comes first. Boxers don't look like WWE stars for a reason.

WEll there is some truth to that, and being a good ol country town boy, I have been in a few fights - from my own experiences the winning factor in a street fight was not so much speed but to

1) Hit first and often (while the other guy(s) were still posturing

2) Ability to take a punch

I found my 6'2" 120kgs allowed me to win each time combined with a frenzy of punching, kicking and yes biting.

if u were small but speed 4 dex 20 against my speed 2, (lol!!) it didn't seem to help as i could take pretty much anything - course when drunk i didn't feel much pain either.

Now I've finished my pissing contest - in reference to the dex point, being fast will help but i know i can punch very hard and fast but i cannot avoid very much - so u could say my ocv and dcv were not equal.

I would like a mechanism to seperate out these values.

Also people with good timing and eyesight are better with missle weapons and guns than a dexterous person so how does the dex work there?

[CourtFool]

I would like a mechanism to seperate out these values.

Also people with good timing and eyesight are better with missle weapons and guns than a dexterous person so how does the dex work there?Let's see, DEX gives you OCV, DCV, SPD, Skill Levels with DEX Skills and Combat Reflexes. Someone help me if I have missed something.

DCV can be bought for 5 points per 1. OCV can be bought for 8 points for all combat but could also be used for DCV. It would seem reasonable to me that you could charge a straight 5 points for just +1 OCV.
SPD is 10 per 1.
Skill Levels with DEX is 5 per 1.
Combat Reflexes are 1 per 1.
So give everyone
OCV: 3
DCV: 3
SPD: 2
Skills based on DEX: 11-
Combat Reflexes: 0 (or base 10 for determining who goes first)

...and let everyone buy up from there. Remove DEX altogether. Drains target specific abilities. Am I forgetting something?

For Agility vs. Hand-eye coordination...

+1 w/Agility Skills = 3pts
+1 w/Hand-eye coordination Skills = 3pts
Define which skills go where and do not allow the 5pt skill.

It will require a little more accounting and make Drains more effective but I do not think it should break anything else. Does that help?

[taxboy4]

Let's see, DEX gives you OCV, DCV, SPD, Skill Levels with DEX Skills and Combat Reflexes. Someone help me if I have missed something.

DCV can be bought for 5 points per 1. OCV can be bought for 8 points for all combat but could also be used for DCV. It would seem reasonable to me that you could charge a straight 5 points for just +1 OCV.
SPD is 10 per 1.
Skill Levels with DEX is 5 per 1.
Combat Reflexes are 1 per 1.
So give everyone
OCV: 3
DCV: 3
SPD: 2
Skills based on DEX: 11-
Combat Reflexes: 0 (or base 10 for determining who goes first)

...and let everyone buy up from there. Remove DEX altogether. Drains target specific abilities. Am I forgetting something?

For Agility vs. Hand-eye coordination...

+1 w/Agility Skills = 3pts
+1 w/Hand-eye coordination Skills = 3pts
Define which skills go where and do not allow the 5pt skill.

It will require a little more accounting and make Drains more effective but I do not think it should break anything else. Does that help?

Sounds good, but wouldn't i have to give points back or does extinquishing 10 dex points give the base stats you mentioned above.

[CourtFool]

Sounds good, but wouldn't i have to give points back or does extinquishing 10 dex points give the base stats you mentioned above.
Basically the things I listed are what a 10 DEX gives you so you should not have to give any points back.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Its very obvious that the designers of the Hero system meant for Dex to represent both reflexive ability and eye/hand coordination.

Having a dextrous theif in Hero certainly means that not only will he be good with his Dex skills (most theif skills being dex based, but not all) but will be good in combat and fast as well.

I don't see where there is a problem. Absolutely every theif in fantasy fiction is quick and agile. Everyone that I've read about. Silk from Belgariad. Tasslehoff from Dragonlance. Shadowspawn from Theives world. Jimmy from Riftwars Saga. All of them.

Sure, a high Dex theif can hit more often than the moderately high Dex Fighter, but his weapons are usually so light (using nothing heavier than a longsword and usually a shortsword or long-dagger) they have trouble punching through armor as one poster mentioned above. Fighters may hit less often, but when they do, whatever they hit feels it. If its mortal, chances are its dead in a hit or two. Unless they hit a vital spot (which theives tend to go for...what do you think Backstab represents) they have to hit their enemies four or five times before they go down. And god-forbid if the Theif gets hit. If he gets hit, he's going down. And in Herioc level combat, there's a good chance he's not getting back up again without a resurrection spell handy...
Thus, if our Theif isn't working with a High Dex, he's probably dead meat.

The Hero system already has a mechanic built in so that one can customize any characteristic to their desire. Simply put limitations on Dex if you want your theif to be good with Dex skill and dodge well, but not have better fighting ability than the Fighter. Though in my opinion its unessecary.

I'd build my Theif with a moderate Dex (Dex 15), Dex Skill levels (+2 10pts) and some DCV levels (+2 or +3) so that he would be quick, but not overly so. He'd be quite good with his Dex skills (14 or less) and he's be damned hard to hit (DCV 7 or 8 before dodging) but he wouldn't be any better than the group Fighter (OCV 5) in combat.

Thats all you need to do really..sit down with your players and explain to them how you want each character to specialize in their chosen profession...at least at the start of the game.

[Xel]

I have an idea for you. Instaed of splitting up the
DEX attribute, split the costs a little. DEX should only cost
1 point per level (maybe 2 for a high powered game),
and has absolutley no efect on OCV and DCV. Instead
OCV and DCV either only cost 1 pt per level or can
only be bought up with CSLs.
(though everybody might
start out with a base 3 OCV/DCV.

Doing this could solve your problem for your high OCV/DCV
thief character. I saw this written down somwhere
before in one of the hero books
before, but i cant remember which one it was (i think it was
in a sidebar).

Well i hope this helps you.

[Lupus]

My basic problem with the cost of DEX is the cost of CSLs. It's simply not worth it to buy +1 with all combat for 8 points, when it costs 6 points for +1 DCV AND OCV from +3 dex (including rebate from SPD, unless that isn't high). This ends being useful once you hit NCM, of course. Playing supers is a different story.

I'd wanna see either an increase in the cost of DEX or a decrease in the cost of CSLs before I was willing to buy any more than 2- or 3-point CSLs (or 5-point ones with limitations. They're neat. My personal favorite is DCV levels with 'requires successful presence attack').

And yes, I know that point-economics shouldn't be such a big motivating factor. Yet it is, yah? I'm not going to buy my DEX up above where it should be. I can't remember the last time I made a 75/75 character with 20 DEX (actually, I do - a very young Tolkien elf). But if I do buy what's appropriate for my character, I'd rather not feel ripped off. I shouldn't HAVE to choose between powergaming and character-appropriateness.

Oh, as for the argument 'hand-eye coordination and agility tend to go together in Fantasy literature'... well, so do physical toughness, health and strength. Yet we have three stats for them...

Personally? I dunno what to do. Splitting DEX might be good. Might introduce too many problems (especially in HD, unless you're good at template design).

[Curufea]

So try it and let us know how it goes.

[Trencher]

I have split dex into agility for dcv and dexterity for ocv in my houseruled campain. The cost remains the same for both dex and agi. It works because it makes charcters more expensive and because it creates more diversety.

[Hugh Neilson]

I have split dex into agility for dcv and dexterity for ocv in my houseruled campain. The cost remains the same for both dex and agi. It works because it makes charcters more expensive and because it creates more diversety.

hmmm...9 points for +3 Agility or 5 points for 1 combat skill level to add 1 to DCV. Decisions, decisions... :nonp:

Might be more of a choice if I had a lot of agility-based skills (and for whichever stat feeds my SPD), but for a pure combat monster, I'd pay 10 points for 2 5 point skill levels (1 in OCV and 1 in DCV) before I'd pay 18 (or 15, or 12, after Speed Rebate) for +3 Agility and +3 Dex.

I suppose it will promote diversity, since I could decide I want to be a really good shot and pump all my points into OCV, or a really poor one and pump them into DCV.

[Trencher]

Most campains have a maximum on how much your total cv can be. That is why the players in my campain always bought dex instead of skill levels.

[Markdoc]

That's why I DON'T have a cap on CV (and probably why I have never had a problem with DEX).

I must admit to limited sympathy for GMs that change some important aspects of the system and then complain that the system no longer works properly.

cheers, Mark

[mudpyr8]

Instead of assuming that it is broken, why not assume that fighters are broken in d20? Taking that another step, suggest that non-agility based characters do the following:

Lack of Agility: -1 to all Agility skills (-5 Points)

This is simply a negative skill level (and covered by the rules). Instead of trying to reduce a character's DEX this would allow a fighter to be stronger or tougher.

Example:

Thief spends 30 pts on DEX to get a DEX of 20 (and CV of 7 and SPD of 3)
Fighter spends 30 pts on DEX to get the same but takes -2 to all Agility skills (giving him a DEXroll of 11- just like an average man). He then spends those 10 pts on +2 w/Hand to Hand.

Assuming that Thief puts most of his points into Thief skills and a Fighter puts them in to STR and toughness, the Fighter will be a better fighter.

What you have just done is correct the problem without altering any of the fundamentals. All character write-ups are still accurate. You can also easily adjust characters on the fly by swapping 1 to 2 pts off the DEX roll for HtH or Ranged Combat. You now have a fighter who cannot perform acrobatics or sleight of hand any better than the average guy, but who is a much better fighter. His high DEX represents his reflexes, speed, and precision in combat but you have now eliminated the maneuver bonus.

If you were making a more modest fighter, you could buy DEX 14 for a net of 3 pts (including the SPEED and Lack of Agility). Not too bad.

[Steve Long]

I haven't read through the thread, so maybe someone else has recommended this, but my HEROglyphs column in Digital Hero #15 has an optional rules system that splits DEX into three Characteristics. It's just rules tinkering for fun -- I certainly don't think it's necessary to correct a "weakness" in the rules -- but you might enjoy reading it if that's a change you want to make in your campaign.

[Shadowpup]

Good suggestion Mudpyr8. I never really thought of that.

[Champsguy]

Man, you guys buy into the stereotypes so fast.

Who says a thief needs a high Dex? D&D says so, that's who. Where does it say you need a high Dex in Hero? Nowhere. It's cheaper to buy your Stealth and Sleight of Hand skills up with +2 to thief skills.

Dex is for kicking ass. That's it. Don't confuse what it is in other systems. Dex = going first, hitting often, not getting hit. That's what it does. Oh, it also adds to a handful of skills. And why aren't you buying your fighters with a high Dex??? Just because he's big and clumsy doesn't mean he doesn't move fast.

[Alibear]

I've got to agree with C. Instead of lots of dex buy 3point skill levels for three related skills.

3 skill levels with Climbing, Breakfall & Stealth would be points well spent instead just piling it into Dex.
My first reaction was to say don't buy any Weapon familiarities as someone else already reccomeded.

[Dauntless]

I pretty much agree with taxboy here.

In my own home grown system, I've created Attributes with sub-attributes. For those that want simplicity, they can just use the base Attribute. But if they want to be more precise, they can use the more specific sub-attributes.

For example, I've divided Dexterity and Speed into two main Attributes; Kinesthetics, and Neuromotor Control (or NMC for short). In turn, Kinesthetics is divided into Agility (whole body balance and awareness), and Coordination (the ability to control the limbs). NMC in turn is divided into Force (how much force your muscles can generate...what most games solely consider as Strength) and Power (how quickly you can fire your muscle fibers). Speed and Strength in my game are actually derived secondary attributes based on NMC and the character's Size (height and weight), and Fitness (Health and Constitution).

All in all, my game has 8 primary Attributes, and therefore 16 sub-attributes, and there are also 5 derived secondary attributes. Not to mention 5 Psyche traits and at least 3 Principles. Why so many attributes? I personally happen to feel my system is the most well-defined of any game system out there in that it tends to mitigate the problem where one attribute dominates a game system (which is unfortunately common in too many game systems). It also allows for the creation of characters which are otherwise impossible or require some odd kludges to create (such as the Hero system). For example, in my system, it's very easy and totally self-contained to create a character like Bruce Lee who isn't strong in the sense that he can lift a lot of weight through having a low Force sub-attribute, but he can do a lot of damage by having a high Power. Conversely, you can model a bodybuilder who can lift a lot of weight, but who can't generate the same amount of Force over the same amount of time (pound for pound, a gymnast will do more damage than a bodybuilder because, in physics terms, even though a bodybuilder can do more work, how much force you can generate per unit time, which is my definition of power, is the most important factor in determining blunt damage). Or you can create a magician with amazing hand-eye coordination, but who's no faster than a runner, or you can create an acrobat that can't pick a lock.

I can hear some say that you can do the same by having combat skill levels or lightning reflexes do the same, but really, these things only modify a more limited set of circumstances. Maybe I can make my weaker STR martial artist do more damage by giving him combat skill levels to add to DC, but then you confine yourself to only addressing the combat side of things. The Hero method still doesn't solve the SPD vs. Reflexes problem (there's a difference between how quickly you can react to an event versus how quickly you can physically move). If you want your martial artist to jump really high....well in Hero, that's a STR based thing (which in real life, is based on a number of factors, the most important being how much Power you can generate in relation to your bodyweight). In my system, all this stuff is handled elegantly and without needing the overhead burden of stuff like CSL's or advantages like Lightning Reflexes. So what at first may appear to be a system overly burdened with attributes is in the long run more simple and elegant. Moreover, it does away with the attribute overuse problem.

My suggestion is to do what I did, and tinker around with the Attribute system for Hero. You bought the game, so it's yours to play around with in whatever way you want :) It's not like a holy book that's inviolate, and I've never understood people who feel like it's sacrilege to adapt, modify and tinker around with an established game system to make it play the way you want it to.

[Eosin]

Speaking of math and effiency nothing gets you more bang for the buck than DEX - who needs to buy levels when you can pump the DEX.

30 points in DEX nets you the following:
+1 SPD (10 points)
+4 OCV (20 points)
+4 DCV (20 points)
+2 to all DEX based skills (10 Points)
+10 to Inish (?)

You get double the return for your character points. If you want to figure out how to handle DEX inflation the very first thing that you have to do is be honest about the cost-to-benefit ratio.

The easiest solution is to make DEX 10 the NCM for the campaign - that will at least level the playing field so that DEX and skill levels come out with some equity.

While, you can split it out what you end up with is a mess that trickles down through the whole game. You have to get/design a new character sheet, you have to figure out which DEX based skills are going to be covered by the new skill, you have to figure out something for SPD, and another thing for inish ---- all of which will lead to misunderstandings at the table until the whole group groks your new rules. God forbid that you bring a new player into the game and then have to start all over.

K.I.S.S. - If it is a problem in your game then just double or triple the cost.

That sounds much snarkier than it should - this post is certified snark free.

:joint:

[Spence]

I haven't had much time for the boards lately and haven't read this thread all the way through. In all of my Heroic games where we had a problem with characteristics like the one you are pointing out with Dex, our solution was to cap (or limit) the raw characteristic to what we thought would be appropriate and then purchase the additional characteristic points as a limited skill. There was a write up done by Killershrike? (I think) for Fantasy Hero that is really really good and I think would give you many good ideas. I guess I should hunt down the site again, my links didn't survive the last time my computer crashed.

[mudpyr8]

The only problem I see with a cost-benefit analysis is that the point costs for skills and such are not meant to be equitable.

If you did the same analysis on 10 pt skill levels you'd arrive at a similar conclusion. Or 5 pt levels even. Relative to stats, perhaps not (+5 INT = 1 5 pt Intellect Skill level), but relative to the skills it does (how many Intellect skills are there, including KS, SS, PS, etc.?).

There are always efficient ways to buy things, some moreso than others, all relative to the character concept.

DEX costs what it costs and has all the benefits it does. Is it broken? I don't think so. You can easily find ways to redirect those points to reflect your character concept (negative skill levels, no figured characteristics, etc.). That just sets the baseline. Characters that lower their abilities relative to the baseline can excel in other areas (my Negative Skill Level example).

DEX is easy to buy, which is why we do it, but that doesn't mean it's the best route to take.

[Acid_Crash]

I pretty much agree with taxboy here.

In my own home grown system, I've created Attributes with sub-attributes. For those that want simplicity, they can just use the base Attribute. But if they want to be more precise, they can use the more specific sub-attributes.

For example, I've divided Dexterity and Speed into two main Attributes; Kinesthetics, and Neuromotor Control (or NMC for short). In turn, Kinesthetics is divided into Agility (whole body balance and awareness), and Coordination (the ability to control the limbs). NMC in turn is divided into Force (how much force your muscles can generate...what most games solely consider as Strength) and Power (how quickly you can fire your muscle fibers). Speed and Strength in my game are actually derived secondary attributes based on NMC and the character's Size (height and weight), and Fitness (Health and Constitution).

All in all, my game has 8 primary Attributes, and therefore 16 sub-attributes, and there are also 5 derived secondary attributes. Not to mention 5 Psyche traits and at least 3 Principles. Why so many attributes? I personally happen to feel my system is the most well-defined of any game system out there in that it tends to mitigate the problem where one attribute dominates a game system (which is unfortunately common in too many game systems). It also allows for the creation of characters which are otherwise impossible or require some odd kludges to create (such as the Hero system). For example, in my system, it's very easy and totally self-contained to create a character like Bruce Lee who isn't strong in the sense that he can lift a lot of weight through having a low Force sub-attribute, but he can do a lot of damage by having a high Power. Conversely, you can model a bodybuilder who can lift a lot of weight, but who can't generate the same amount of Force over the same amount of time (pound for pound, a gymnast will do more damage than a bodybuilder because, in physics terms, even though a bodybuilder can do more work, how much force you can generate per unit time, which is my definition of power, is the most important factor in determining blunt damage). Or you can create a magician with amazing hand-eye coordination, but who's no faster than a runner, or you can create an acrobat that can't pick a lock.

I can hear some say that you can do the same by having combat skill levels or lightning reflexes do the same, but really, these things only modify a more limited set of circumstances. Maybe I can make my weaker STR martial artist do more damage by giving him combat skill levels to add to DC, but then you confine yourself to only addressing the combat side of things. The Hero method still doesn't solve the SPD vs. Reflexes problem (there's a difference between how quickly you can react to an event versus how quickly you can physically move). If you want your martial artist to jump really high....well in Hero, that's a STR based thing (which in real life, is based on a number of factors, the most important being how much Power you can generate in relation to your bodyweight). In my system, all this stuff is handled elegantly and without needing the overhead burden of stuff like CSL's or advantages like Lightning Reflexes. So what at first may appear to be a system overly burdened with attributes is in the long run more simple and elegant. Moreover, it does away with the attribute overuse problem.

My suggestion is to do what I did, and tinker around with the Attribute system for Hero. You bought the game, so it's yours to play around with in whatever way you want :) It's not like a holy book that's inviolate, and I've never understood people who feel like it's sacrilege to adapt, modify and tinker around with an established game system to make it play the way you want it to.

Any chance of getting a copy of this from you?

[Trencher]

I must admit to limited sympathy for GMs that change some important aspects of the system and then complain that the system no longer works properly.

What do you mean?

[Markdoc]

What do you mean?

Well, if you set a cap on CV - to take the example given - then it makes DEX far more cost effective, since DEX gives bonuses to all sorts of things. In contrast, although they only apply to a limited subset of things, the prime advantage of levels is that they are cheap. But if CV is capped at 10 (say), then the fact that you can buy 6 levels in OCV for 12 points is pretty irrelevant - odds are, you'll never be allowed them. You'd be better off buying 4 points of DEX instead.

So the problem is essentially "Yeah, I changed the rules to make DEX really cost-effective and now people are buying lots of DEX!"

My response is "Well, what did you expect?"

It's not just DEX - you can change the Hero system lots of ways, but like any system, you have to be aware that changing something also changes everything connected to it.

cheers, Mark

[Trencher]

Cap on cv is straight out of the rulebook.
In anycase I don't see any problem with it and I certanly do not have any problem with my house rules. I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression.