Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

[Metaphysician]

Okay, we've all wargamed the Champions vs various villains before. Its not that difficult.

A trickier task would be to figure out how the 3K Champions would do against various 2K master villains, due to greater numbers and variability.

This thread is for anybody who is up to the task in analyzing how the characters would do, in small ways ( "I think Bulletproof would be useful against Mechanon, because he can soak all his attacks" ) or big ( "Okay, here are the results of my playtesting the fight, starting at segment 12. . ." ).

Ground rules for all such playtesting and wargaming here:

-Neither side is surprised. Both sides have any non-persistent powers activated, and it starts on first segment 12.

-Both sides may start with any *reasonable* VPP configs where applicable. Assume both sides knew who they would be fighting

-Both sides start on or near the ground, and relatively near to each other ( within a full move )

-Reasonable VPP configs only, given the SFX and power level of the characters in question. This means that, say, Takofanes is not going to haul out a Megascale AoE Selective Continuous Uncontrolled 0 END Transform into Undead Slaves, but he's also not going to only haul out 0 END Energy Blasts. When in doubt, ask me.

-By default, no minions at the start of the fight. Those capable of Summoning minions during the fight are free to do so.

Okay, lets start with the perennial classic: Mechanon.

[Champsguy]

Okay. Mechanon's easy. Now, unfortunately, I don't have my books with me right now, so I'll have to go by memory.

Mechanon only has 30 Defense. That's a problem, mainly because the Galactic Champions have far greater firepower than 20th C heroes. Though Defender is poorly built, he does possess a 20D6 EB. The heroes can gang-tackle Mechanon and simply beat him into submission. There's no need for tactics--it's just a race. Mechanon can't daze the heroes fast enough to keep them from dazing him and knocking him unconscious. The Champions can simply trade blows with him without much problem.

[Metaphysician]

Pretty much agreed. The only thing slightly up for grabs is that Defender 3K, one of the big guns of the group, as a suit AI, which Mechanon could potentially mind control into doing something. This only matters if the AI is capable of control of the suit, though ( it probably is, granted ).

Okay, a tougher target: Gravitar.

[Metaphysician]

Did some crunching on this one.

The Champs 3K team quickly and easily beat Gravitar. . . but almost solely due to Sage. He's got the perfect powerset to take her down:

-Higher Ego than Gravitar's Dex for first action in the initial segment 12.

-Sufficiently high ECV to make hitting her almost assured.

-Enough mental firepower to almost assure that Gravitar will be unable to fight effectively, setting her up for a finisher by his allies ( specifically, he can achieve Stun via his 10d6 Ego Attack, or an Ego +30 success with Mind Control/Mental Illusions ).

OTOH, if for some reason Sage *doesn't* take her down in his first action ( poor roll, basically ), he's not going to be a factor much longer, as she can easily take him out. At that point ( or if we assume Sage isn't present ), things get messy as hell. On one hand, most of the Champs are capable of hitting and hurting her. OTOH, she's got a *lot* of attacks.

[Koshka]

This only matters if the AI is capable of control of the suit, though ( it probably is, granted ).


The book's at home, but I recall the AI taking the armor out for a spin being one of Defender 3K's plot hooks. Now, whether Mechanon would check for AI presence ....

[Metaphysician]

The book's at home, but I recall the AI taking the armor out for a spin being one of Defender 3K's plot hooks. Now, whether Mechanon would check for AI presence ....

Thats exactly what I was figuring. And since there's a good chance he didn't stick Mental Defense in the AI. . .

[Hawksmoor]

The chances of Ole Mech head not checking for AI on segment 12 are nil.

This is the hyper advanced future and ole Mechs playground.

That said it is a race as Champsguy said.

As to Gravitar...basic slug em up. She loses like most megavillians because she is only herself and the opposition has sheer numbers.

Hawksmoor

[Metaphysician]

I disagree a bit re: Gravitar. She's almost perfectly designed for fighting groups. Its all about the big ass AoE 50 STR TK. Turn it on in Gravity Up mode, and the only GC members not immobilized are Defender, Thalya, and Rampart, and even they get hindered significantly.

[Metaphysician]

A switch in focus: How would they do against the villain team the Crowns of Krim??

[Kristopher]

The problem is that mental powers suck in the game. Mechanon can use his 17d6 mind control on Suit, but assuming and average roll of 60 and Suit having a 20 ego, most +30 effects only give a bonus of -2 to the break out roll. Suit is going to escape with an 11- roll on his next phase. On top of that because Mechanon can't mpa the mind control with any of his other attacks he has just lost an attack phase and gave the Champions an advantage.

"Ineffective in combat" != "sucks."

[Metaphysician]

That, and alot of the "inefficacy" of mental powers comes from poor usage. Don't waste time going for the Ego +30 type results, unless you have considerably overkill power. Word your commands more carefully to produce disruption. For instance, instead of commanding a selfless hero to attack an ally, command him to go rescue/evacuate nearby innocent bystanders. Instead of eating a Psych Limit penalty, you now are getting a Psych Limit *bonus*.

Or, the most evil weapon: Mental Illusions, Ego +30 illusion "Victim wins the fight against me in a hard fought manner." Against the more confident, or with the right details, it could easily be a lesser Ego+ value required. . . and with greatly reduced chances of even trying to breakout.

[Chuckg]

For an example, my character Starguard.

While she has a fairly high EGO (EGO 25), she has absolutely no mental defense.

So, let's suppose that Menton fires up a 20d6 Mind Control (standard effect for 60) and commands her "Fire up your death beam! Kill Horus-Re!"

No sweat, right? EGO+30 on Starguard is 55, he can get 60 just with Standard Effect, shazam.

Wrong. For Starguard to kill /anyone/ (for that matter, to attack with intent to do non-trivial BODY damage to anyone) runs right into one Totally Committed Psych Lim. For her to betray anyone, much less her father-figure, runs right into another.

That bumps the difficulty up to EGO plus fifty... which means not even Menton can do it. At least, not unless he rolls notably above average. (And even then, he's going up against a pretty sick Breakout roll.)

On the other hand, if he'd given the Mind Control command "Don't hit me! I'm fragile and break easily!"... well, that's it, Starguard's /completely/ out of the fight. In that instance, he's got two Totally Committed Psych Lims working in his *favor*... which brings his difficulty down to EGO+10, or even possibly base EGO. Which he can easily exceed by 30 to 40 points.

Hell, for a command like that, I don't think Jeff would even allow me to /try/ a Breakout roll... it's not something she'd want to resist.(*)





(*) In her very first superbattle, Starguard greatly misjudged an opponent's PD and punched him in the face... with about 15 DCs worth of punch. Her later need to undo the horrible damage she caused was one of the several catalysts to her discovering she had healing powers.

But ever since then, she's been borderline paranoid about hitting *anything* too hard...

[Gary]

I'd probably rule Starguard attacking Horus-Re to be only +30 not +50. I would imagine that long experience with him would let her know that he has the defenses to take whatever she dishes out. Attacking a 2 PD normal would be a different story.

It'd be like if Captain America was told to attack someone. I'm sure he'd be a lot more willing and likely to attack Thor or Wonderman with the edge of his shield than to attack Jarvis.

[Chuckg]

You overlook that Starguard has a cosmic VPP -- and knows exactly what Horus' equivalent of Kryptonite is.

Besides, you pick a nit. The general point remains unchanged -- 'Even if you're Menton, don't go around ordering people to violate two totally committed Psych Lims when the base command is already EGO +30. Find something that's more in line with a direction they're inclined to go in anyway.'

[Gary]

You overlook that Starguard has a cosmic VPP -- and knows exactly what Horus' equivalent of Kryptonite is.

Besides, you pick a nit. The general point remains unchanged -- 'Even if you're Menton, don't go around ordering people to violate two totally committed Psych Lims when the base command is already EGO +30. Find something that's more in line with a direction they're inclined to go in anyway.'


Depending on what exactly is allowed in the VPP, Horus-Re is still going to be far more resistant to damage than most people.

However, the reasonable command would be to ask Starguard to paralyze or put Horus to sleep as protection for Menton.

Of course someone like Takofanes with up to 30d6 mind control can demand any damn thing he wishes...

[Chuckg]

> #1 Menton only has a 16d6 Mind Control, so his average roll will be 56.
> That still makes the +30 but just barely.

> #2 You're assuming that a mentalist will know what an opponent's total
> psychological limitations are. Most of the time, unless they have had many
> encounters, that is not the case.

... isn't the discreet ferreting out of information exactly what surreptitious Telepathy attempts are *FOR*?

Any mentalist who intends to fight superheroes, but didn't spend some prep time quietly walking by on the street outside and doing a little discreet thought-tapping, is somebody who's seriously under-utilizing his talents.

(Granted, in Starguard's case, that would actually require detective work -- she has Invisibility to Mental Sense Group, which as per the BBB does not block Mind Control, but does make Telepathy fairly pointless. Of course, she's also blatantly obvious to figure out by anybody who spends any time checking into her record, or the heads of people who know her.

The thing is, I am assuming that if Menton has come to pick a fight with me, Menton has first done some adequate scouting out of his opponent. He /paid/ for obnoxious telepathic powers, why not /use/ them?)

> #3 Ego +40 can over-ride psychological limitations. So in that case if
> Menton can roll a 65 on his 16d6 he can command Star*Guard to toast
> Horus-Re. Of course the character has a 14- breakout roll to resist on his
> next phase.

Her. And when it goes *doubly* against their psychological limitations?

> #4 I serously doubt any character would believe that Menton is fragile and
> breaks easily.

That's what the Mind Control is for. :)

Remember, one of the other effects of EGO +30 is "Target will believe statements that directly contradict known reality."

> I'd allow that if it was the first time the character encounted Menton, and
> they blew thier KS: Supervillains/Superhuman World roll but after that it's a
> no-go.

Another problem is that Starguard doesn't /have/ KS: Superhuman World or KS: Supervillains, and /hasn't/ ever met Menton before... but given the listed effect for an EGO+30 base, that's not really relevant.

> I'm not saying mental powers can't be useful but most decent effects
> require a +20 or more and [snip]

So phrase effects that go *with* a target's Psych Lims, and drop that back down to EGO +10 or base EGO.

The whole point of this discussion and all prior examples is to show that Subtletly Is Important. Even Menton's overwhelming smash-em-down psi attacks hit a distinct upper limit at a certian level, and lower psis don't even get that high.

That's the /point/. Otherwise, Mind Control would be the most abused power in the game. As is, the character only gets major mileage out of it if the player puts major effort into thinking about it.

I do not see this as a bug. It is a feature.

[Chuckg]

Of course someone like Takofanes with up to 30d6 mind control can demand any damn thing he wishes...

At this point, I'd petition the DM to have Starguard's "Archangel Powers" VPP dump *into* Mental Defense -- or, at the least, a hefty EGO Aid for herself. Primal mystic evil like Takofanes is something that she's programmed, on the very deepest level of her soul, to react violently against. But that's a character conception thing and I veer on OT-ness.

[Chuckg]

To use another example, if I wanted to use some Mind Control to delay Doctor Destroyer for a few phases, I woudn't try "Stop!" "Don't hurt me!" or "Go save that kitten!" What would be the point? It's violently opposed to both his overall nature /and/ his current desire.

Instead, I'd try "Before you kiill me, you /really/ want to explain to me just exactly how screwed I am. Come on, monologue! You're Doctor Destroyer! What can I possibly do to you? Brag a little!"

Given that this is Destroyer we're dealing with here, I could probably milk a whole Turn's worth of stalling out of this -- at least, if nobody else was shooting at him. His monologues do tend to run into overtime. :)

[Gary]

To use another example, if I wanted to use some Mind Control to delay Doctor Destroyer for a few phases, I woudn't try "Stop!" "Don't hurt me!" or "Go save that kitten!" What would be the point? It's violently opposed to both his overall nature /and/ his current desire.

Instead, I'd try "Before you kiill me, you /really/ want to explain to me just exactly how screwed I am. Come on, monologue! You're Doctor Destroyer! What can I possibly do to you? Brag a little!"

Given that this is Destroyer we're dealing with here, I could probably milk a whole Turn's worth of stalling out of this -- at least, if nobody else was shooting at him. His monologues do tend to run into overtime. :)


Not in Champions. Soliloquies take no time. :D

[WhammeWhamme]

Not in Champions. Soliloquies take no time. :D

So remind him that he MUST pace about dramatically, and posture appropriately. :)

[The Watcher]

Well you should have one of them. You are an Avenger/JLA level character. You should know what's going on in that enviroment, and in the Alien World as well. :)Starguard's a neophyte who just became a hero a few days ago.

She basically was imbued with phenomenal cosmic power but has little to no training on how to use it. So she's at the power level to be on a JLA/Avengers Team, but she's getting all of her training on the job.

[Chuckg]

Yeah. One of the primary reasons I'm on this team is because of the heart attacks provoked by the idea of somebody with my combination of Phenomenal Cosmic Powers and Total Inexperience walking around /without/ expert guidance. :)

[Metaphysician]

So remind him that he MUST pace about dramatically, and posture appropriately. :)

Speaking takes no time, but IIRC, lengthy talking does use up time when dramatically appropriate.

[Champsguy]

Mind Control is incredibly nasty. Even at 60 Active Points. You just have to be smart in how you use it.

A 12D6 EB averages 12 Body and 42 Stun. Assuming a character ("Average Hero") with 25 Def and 23 Con, you won't daze him. If you push that EB (to 14D6), you'll average 14 Body and 49 Stun. That'll daze Average Hero. If you haymaker and push, that's 18D6. That'll do 18 Body, 63 Stun, daze Average Hero, and might knock him out. Average Hero takes 38 Stun past his defenses, and is probably at single digit Stun.

A 12D6 Mind Control is a little different. It averages 42 effect. Against 15 Ego "Average Hero", it can get 27 past. That's enough to get a +20 effect and tack on a -1 to the Ego roll. So a command like "Let me go. Don't arrest me." would be resisted with an 11- roll. If you push, it averages 49 effect. That means, at 34 past, you're just a hair away from getting a -3 on that Ego roll. That would mean that Average Hero needs a 9- to avoid letting you go. If you haymaker and push, you get 63 effect. That's an extra 28 effect over what is needed. That's a -5 (almost a -6). That Ego roll is suddenly at a 7 or less (almost 6 or less). He's effectively out of the fight, as far as you're concerned.

[Kristopher]

Subtlety is not how the power is used in the comic books. Mentalists don't fail unless the person being mind controlled has some sort of epiphany to allow them to break out: You killed Bucky! Within the game the power needs to be used the opposite way of how it's used in the comics.


Sometimes, the comics are wrong.

What works in the source material can sometimes be counterproductive to enjoyable gaming.

[Chuckg]

Not to mention that if you want to really mindwhack someone, buy 2/3rds as many dice of Mind Control, but make them Cumulative... and then spend a couple Phases.

For example, Baron von Darien has two MC slots -- an immediate 12d6, for 'suggestion' effects in combat... and an 8d6, (correction) 2x Cumulative, for leisurely out-of-combat brainrape.

In the heat of the fight, he's lucky to do a fairly hefty 'telepathic' push.

But out of combat... give him a minute, and he can Cumulative all the way up to (8 * 6 * 2), or 96 points of total effect.

Which is the closest I could get in HERO terms to 'Major-league vampire elder Dominate.'


Plus, most of those 'villain totally mind controls the hero' things are lengthy, out-of-combat brainwashing, after all -- that's not even Mind Control in some cases, that's Mental Transform (vs. Mental Defense), with the "all or nothing" revert being 'You try to force target against Totally Committed Psych Lim and Target makes Breakout roll'.

[Metaphysician]

*bump*

Since we are on the topic of mind control: Champions 3K vs Menton.

[Cardinal]

** Rise from the dead, I command you**

Nice necromancy and cool thread.

Isn't the Menton v. 3K the situation where Menton decides that it is time to properly use his powers to the fullest? That is to say, TP far away and then use his Detect Mind and Mind Scan to take care of Sage and then blast the hell out of everyone from the safety of a beach somewhere drinking an umbrella drink...

[Log-Man]

:fear: :angst: :fear:

B -b-b-b-b-but...you're supposed to be dead!

:angst: :fear: :angst:











Necromancy frightens me!

[incrdbil]

As to Gravitar...basic slug em up. She loses like most megavillians because she is only herself and the opposition has sheer numbers.

Hawksmoor

IIRC, she doesn't have much--or any flash defense.

As for Defender, can't he wip up a lot of mental defense for his AI from his gadget pool 9plus extra defenses as well). At that point, Mechanon is in trouble.

[Metaphysician]

*necromance*

Okay, now the big one:

CHampions 3K vs Dr Destroyer

Some initial thoughts:

-Half the C3K can do significant ( 10+ ) stun per attack with straightforward tricks ( non Move Throughs, etc )

-Most of the Champions can stay up and keep fighting, oft without too much hindrance, after a 20d6 Explosion gets tossed out, as long as its not too nearby

-Charm has the DEX and Speed that, if Destroyer starts anywhere near ground level, she could potentially Joint Lock/Throw him to the ground, before he could act. . . or force him to abort to avoid said, losing his first action either way :)

-If Rampart can get Dr Destroyer into a headlock, he is *screwed*

[Zed-F]

3 days does not qualify as necromancy. :)

[Enforcer84]

More of a Thread Healing.

[Zed-F]

I think I remember someone suggesting their group of 700 point heroes took down a DD clone in a half-turn. It might even have been Champions 3k, though I'm not sure. In any case, that's the sort of result I'd expect here.

One DD versus what, 6, 7 other characters that fight opponents of his power level (i.e. 20d6+ attacks) on a regular basis? Not much of a contest, even if the Champs 3K are not all that buff as 700-point chars go. Now, if DD has some portion of his loyal army on tap to give him a hand, that's another matter.