View Full Version : Characteristics: racial package deals
Scatman
Nov 10th, '04, 10:25 AM
Question: does the fantasy hero download have things that give you the ability to put in the characteristics in the package deals (the positive and the negative abilities) w/o adding them to the stats? Normally when you add a characteristic to the powers list it will add it to the stat unless you hit the do not add to totals button. Isn't the characteristic add/minus affect the NCM so that they can buy higher than the 20 max on stats without paying double cost or has that changed in FReD? I don't think it has so I was looking for some answers
Thanks in advance.
Simon
Nov 10th, '04, 10:41 AM
The pluses and minuses to stats listed in FH are handled as straight characteristics. They do not affect NCM levels (nor should they).
If you have a dwarf with a starting STR of 18, his max STR under NCM is still 20.
If you want to alter the NCM levels (house rule), then you will need to create a custom template.
Characteristic Powers are not Characteristics and should not be used as such.
Scatman
Nov 10th, '04, 11:51 AM
Really? I guess it has changed. So you mean like for the Dwarf package deal that would add a +3 to his BODY it actually adds the +3? Hmph. well thanks. That means the package characteristics that are in the FH packages actually gives them extra stats. And the characteristic power i was refering to was that you have to put the additional characteristic in the powers spot even though it is in the package deal. You're supposed to place the corresponding skills, disads, etc. in the right spots.
Does it apply to the minuses also? And if so how to make that happen on the HeroDesigner program?
Simon
Nov 10th, '04, 11:54 AM
I'm not sure I'm understanding you here....
You purchase pluses and minuses for characteristics the same way you always would: buy buying them up or down on the Characteristics tab.
The dwarf that starts out with +3 BODY has spent 6 points on his BODY Characteristic.
If the same character started with -4 COM, he would simply sell off the 4 COM on the Characteristics tab, getting 2 points back.
If you're looking to make "template" characters (starting points), then use the "Save As Template" and "New Character from Template" functionality, once you've entered in all of the starting values and abilities.
Killer Shrike
Nov 10th, '04, 11:55 AM
A little bit of clarification:
The rules do not directly support altered NCM -- though the some of the books do recognize that some GM's use them in their home games, there is no by the book way to do them.
HD supports the rules directly, and requires custom house rules to be handled with custom templates that override the default/standard core rules.
The Race Packages in the various supplements do not take NCM into account. If a character of a given race goes over NCM then they must pay double for it by the rules. HD handles this via the Characteristics tab.
If you or your GM wants to play 100% by the letter of the rules then HD out of the box correctly and almost perfectly handles that.
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Having said that,
If you prefer that certain races are stronger or faster or dumber or uglier than others inherently then you want an alternate NCM. There are several ways of doing alt-NCMs conceptually, and HD can be made to support different ways in different fashions.
Some people like to internally balance their alt-NCM's so that if they give a race, say +3 DEX for 9 pts, they'll pay it off by generating -9 pts via lowering other characteristics (maybe -5 STR, -1 CON, -1 BOD for example).
Some people dont care about interally balancing and let the cost of the package sort itself out. They'll just raise and lower NCM as they please to model a given race.
Some people prefer that the NCM adjustment also adjust the base -- thus if the Trogdor race gets +5 STR Max, then they also get +5 STR Base -- the bar for both is moved together. Other people prefer to decouple base and max, and work out some means to reconcile differing values for both. Some people still prefer the old 4e way of doing it where a character pays for the Maxima increase seperately from base increases (even though it's mathematically unsound).
And so on.
So in short, if you want to use alt-NCM's you first have to determine what method you want to use. Once you have settled upon your method, then you can implement it in HD.
HD basically has three main methods to affect characteristics outside of NCM, with various pro's and con's.
One method is the do it yourself method. You can leave NCM off, buy stats as you like outside of NCM, and then use a custom object on one of the abilities tabs to nudge the cost of the character to where it should be via your alt-NCM method; call it "NCM Correction" or whatever suits you. If you allow points for NCM, simply and a 20 pt Custom Disad on the Disad tab. If your math is right, the overall cost of the character is correct. The pro to this is that it's easy, and anybody with a calculator can do it. The con is that it's a kludge, and requires you to do the math yourself instead of relying on HD to do it consistently for you.
Another method is via Characteristics as Powers. Since they ignore NCM, if you give someone +5 STR on the Powers tab, they will have a 15 STR, and can buy up to 20 base STR before hitting NCM and add +5 to that total. As a pro its easy, HD tracks the math, and characteristics over maxima are covered via this method. As a con you cant have negative characteristics as Powers; this is in accordance with the rules -- all Powers must cost at least 1 pt. Another con is that the base and the max cannot be decoupled via this method, if that's important to you.
The third option is to make a custom "Race" template that overrides the affected characteristics. If done correctly, this will allow HD to internally calculate your alternate NCM for a character with that Template. Its very cool. You can even override the "NCM" label to read "Trogdor NCM", or whatever as a visual reminder. The pros to this method are many, but basically all boil down to the idea that you are working with the system rather than against it -- it's an internal adjustment rather than a tacked on workaround. A con of this method is the complexity/difficulty level of making a template might be high for people without a certain level of general computing skills. Another con is file management -- you have to manage your multiple "race" custom templates yourself which might be difficult for people with poor file management skills.
As it happens, to cut down on the template creation portion of it, I made a simple asp app to do it for you, which is here:
<a target="_blank" href="http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/RacePackageDeals/NCMExport/NCMExport.asp">Alt NCM Tool for HD</a>
The directions provided tell you how to make HD happy with the file generated by the app.
Youre on your own for the file management portion of it however.
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In summation, HD is currently tracking/allowing the packages provided in FH and other official supplements already. HD also provides the ability to either adjust it's behavior internally and allows for several workarounds as well.
Scatman
Nov 10th, '04, 12:02 PM
Ah! Gotcha. I understand now. Thanks you guys for clarifying that for me. :thumbup:
Killer Shrike
Nov 10th, '04, 12:09 PM
Really? I guess it has changed. So you mean like for the Dwarf package deal that would add a +3 to his BODY it actually adds the +3? Hmph. well thanks. That means the package characteristics that are in the FH packages actually gives them extra stats. And the characteristic power i was refering to was that you have to put the additional characteristic in the powers spot even though it is in the package deal. You're supposed to place the corresponding skills, disads, etc. in the right spots.
Does it apply to the minuses also? And if so how to make that happen on the HeroDesigner program?
A couple of points:
a) Package Deals in Hero 5e are just conveniences. There are no rules governing their design. It's just a way of bundling a bunch of things together to encourage consistency and ease of use.
b) Unless a GM dictates otherwise via house rules, "Race" means absolutely nothing in the HERO System. There is no such concept. The HERO System doesnt care if your character is a sentient rock or a 12 armed Jigallian Space Baboon or a normal pedestrian human. You simply buy (and sell back) the abilities appropriate to model what your "Race" can do.
In this way "Race" is just yet another aspect of SFX baring GM house rules.
Thus, there is no real difference between a "Dwarf" and a "Human" starting off -- the difference can only be measured after the characters are built and you compare the abilities that each was built with together.
Of course, in a world with differing perspectives this means it is possible to get three different players all with a different idea of what a "Dwarf" should be and given the flexibility of building things with the HERO System even players that agreed on general concepts might build out similar abilities via differing mechanics, and all be legally correct.
So, behold, the "Package Deal" enters the picture and says, "for this setting, characters with the SFX of Dwarf should have the following abilities".
Where characteristics are included in that, they indicate that characters of that type are in general better or worse than baseline in that characteristic. By default it has no affect on their NCM.
Eodin
Nov 10th, '04, 12:18 PM
Also keep in mind that in HD prefabs (as opposed to templates) there are no provisions for adding to and subtracting from (specifically) points characteristics. That's based on a conversation Dan had with Steve about this can of worms. So remember that the Package +3 STR and -2 DEX won't be in the prefabs.
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