Breaking a Mental Defense Force Wall

[Tom]

Had a situation come up in play where it was necessary for a character to break through a Force Wall bought as being Mental Defense...

Pretty straightforward, double checked the book to make sure, and discovered what I consider to be an oddity...

The method is simple, you roll your dice and total the BODY (as if you had rolled a normal damage attack) and if it exceeds the defense of the Force Wall you break through...

My problem is that an Ego Blast (a straight up, do damage attack) has less of a chance to break through than any other mental power of equivalent Active Cost (ignoring adders or advantages)...

I'm thinking of making a house rule (not that I really expect it to be an issue very often :rolleyes: ) that with an Ego Blast , just sum the dice and apply that against the defense (ala an RKA). My only problem with this being, and RKA is 15pts/full d6 while and Ego Blast is 10pts/full d6...

Thoughts?

[OddHat]

You could just double the "Body" done by the Ego Attack and it will have as much chance of smashing the wall as an EB has of smashing a regular force wall.

[zornwil]

That is odd, haven't thought about or run accross that.

I would say just double the BOD of an Ego Blast against Mental Force Wall, since Ego Blast is, as you say 10 pts/1d6, whereas the others are 5 pts/1d6. This should balance against the other mental attacks. However, I would wonder if this would be unbalancing in that Ego Blast does direct damage whereas the others do not? In other words, perhaps this only sounds like an unbalanced situation. Anyway, doubling BOD would be the most seemingly direct translation against the 5 pts/1d6 attack.

PS - I was drafting this while I see Oddhat posted. Great minds and all...

[Gary]

I wouldn't bother. Mental Force Walls are already incredibly inefficient. It costs 30 pts for 8 MD FW 0 end. For that same 30 pts, you can buy 30 pts of mental defense or 1/2 mental damage reduction, both far more effective at stopping mental attacks (although they won't protect others).

I would almost be inclined to make Mental FWs to have a mandatory -1/2 limitation in the same way as Hand Attack to represent the fact that for the most part, you don't need the FW to be resistant.

[OddHat]

I would almost be inclined to make Mental FWs to have a mandatory -1/2 limitation in the same way as Hand Attack to represent the fact that for the most part, you don't need the FW to be resistant.

Not until you run across that one bastard in every campaign with the 2d6 RKA BOECV Does Body Continuous ... ;)

[Rapier]

I wouldn't bother. Mental Force Walls are already incredibly inefficient. It costs 30 pts for 8 MD FW 0 end. For that same 30 pts, you can buy 30 pts of mental defense or 1/2 mental damage reduction, both far more effective at stopping mental attacks (although they won't protect others).

I would almost be inclined to make Mental FWs to have a mandatory -1/2 limitation in the same way as Hand Attack to represent the fact that for the most part, you don't need the FW to be resistant.
Oh. Now that's a point I hadn't considered. It's not like there is a Killing EGO Attack. Well...actually...RKA BOECV. Talk about expensive though. I would allow a -1/2 for no resistant defence.

That could get hairy though if it was a multi DEF FW. Lots of good stuff!!

[jackalope]

Not until you run across that one bastard in every campaign with the 2d6 RKA BOECV Does Body Continuous ... ;)

Much more efective is this guy:


Cause Anuerysm: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6-1 (vs. PD), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1/2), Line Of Sight (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), No Normal Defense (Lack of a Organic Brain; +1), Does BODY (+1), Continuous (+1), +9 Increased STUN Multiplier (+2 1/4) Cost: 80

He laughs at your pathetic Force Wall! HAH HAH!

[Sean Waters]

Perhaps mental force walls require subtlty rather than strength to breach, which is why the more finely tuned powers are more effective at cutting through. Imagine a shifting mental wall that heals damage instantly, but if you pick the right spot, down it tumbles.

I'd leave it where it is with Ego Attack, to be honest. I quite like the idea that MFWs are more effective against some powers than others.

Presumably the same thing applies to PowDef walls with dispel being particularly effective, even if not dispelling the FW, and transfer never getting through. You have to think of your own justification for that one...

[Sean Waters]

Much more efective is this guy:


Cause Anuerysm: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6-1 (vs. PD), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1/2), Line Of Sight (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), No Normal Defense (Lack of a Organic Brain; +1), Does BODY (+1), Continuous (+1), +9 Increased STUN Multiplier (+2 1/4) Cost: 80

He laughs at your pathetic Force Wall! HAH HAH!

...and I laugh at him HAHAHA! No brain at all! The force wall was a ruse! Then I haymaker him for 22d6 with the strength I bought for the same price.

[OddHat]

Much more efective is this guy:


Cause Anuerysm: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6-1 (vs. PD), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1/2), Line Of Sight (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), No Normal Defense (Lack of a Organic Brain; +1), Does BODY (+1), Continuous (+1), +9 Increased STUN Multiplier (+2 1/4) Cost: 80

He laughs at your pathetic Force Wall! HAH HAH!

Not a common enough defense, but then that's a GM's call. ;)

[zornwil]

Not a common enough defense, but then that's a GM's call. ;)
If a tinfoil hat works to fool it re having an organic brain, that would then be okay with me. I agree that "lack of an organic brain" in and of itself is hardly reasonably common, although I took this as a cheese build anyway.

[OddHat]

If a tinfoil hat works to fool it re having an organic brain, that would then be okay with me. I agree that "lack of an organic brain" in and of itself is hardly reasonably common, although I took this as a cheese build anyway.

Cheese is in the eye of the beholder, which must be kinda painful.
;)

In some weird powers SciFi campaigns I might allow a build like that, with a more common defense. TK characters playing mix-a-brain are part of the genre. In most Supers campaigns, no.

[Sean Waters]

Cheese is in the eye of the beholder, which must be kinda painful.
;)



Wouldn't that be a flash attack? Only if it is, it can probably also break through a Mental Force Wall. :)

[jackalope]

Not a common enough defense, but then that's a GM's call. ;)

You should see the stats I wrote for God. He has a 25d6 RKA NND Does Body. The only defense is "Being God".

[TheEmerged]

I wouldn't bother. Mental Force Walls are already incredibly inefficient. It costs 30 pts for 8 MD FW 0 end. For that same 30 pts, you can buy 30 pts of mental defense or 1/2 mental damage reduction, both far more effective at stopping mental attacks (although they won't protect others).

I would almost be inclined to make Mental FWs to have a mandatory -1/2 limitation in the same way as Hand Attack to represent the fact that for the most part, you don't need the FW to be resistant.

One of the PC's in the campaign I'm running has one of these as a regular VPP slot. Trust me, it's far from useless.

Let's remember that unless "BODY" gets through the FW no "STUN" gets through -- that 8 MD Force Wall would generally nullify an 8d6 Mind Control. Given that 4 MD of FW will cost 15 points and counteract 20 points of Mind Control/Scan/Illusions or telepathy, I'd say the construct might need a balancing factor. Of course if you add in 0 END it's 20 points for 20 points...

In the case of the PC in my campaign, I ruled that to be effective *at all* the MDFW had to be long enough to completly englobe -- otherwise the power could just go around it.

As for the fact that Ego Attack costs twice as much? I have to admit the issue has occured to me. My current no-prize explanation is that Ego Attack is "raw" and not focused enough to pierce a Force Wall. I've debated going the other way and declaring Ego Attack "Killing" dice for this purpose -- that is, the STUN result is considered BODY for the purposes of breaking a FW.

[Frenchman]

You should see the stats I wrote for God. He has a 25d6 RKA NND Does Body. The only defense is "Being God".Why would you stat out God? Everyone knows his only power is a 1000 point Cosmic VVP (2500 points, if you're curious).

[TheEmerged]

Why would you stat out God? Everyone knows his only power is a 1000 point Cosmic VVP (2500 points, if you're curious).

/em fails his EGO roll, cannot pass up a theological joke

Trust me, you'll always need a bigger pool size :D