what makes a "demon" a "demon"?

[Michael Hopcroft]

being exposed to non-Western fantasy, which doesn;t have the Christain tradition to back it up, has exposed me to several different ideas of what a "demon" can be other than an 'agent of hell". I;ve read and seen things where demons are forces of nature that happen to value destruction over creation, balancing the creative force; worlds where demons are just beings of power who aren't human and are vulenrtable to evil manipulation; and svereal other ideas of what a demon is.

This has resulted in things like heroic demons, who fight on the side of good in spite of temptation, or demons who ally with PCs who oppose rival demons to suit their own purposes.miuch of the cast of Saiyuki follows the first model, while the classic of the second model is Xelloss of Slayers.

So, when is a demon not really a demon? Does it really dpeend on which fantasy world you;re in? And what if you;re doing a modern-fantasy game and want your demons to be equally mysterious and ambiguous?

[keithcurtis]

One of the problems is that I doubt very much that the word "demon" is a good translation. The original figures you are describing would probably best addressed by the term used in their source language/culture. "Demon" carries a lot of baggage with it.

Keith "calling a certain garden implement, a certain garden implement" Curtis

[Vondy]

Well, in the Jewish tradition, where we have no concept of Hell and its presumed angels, not having free will, cannot rebel, we have a different notion of demons. Angels assigned to tempt, to carry out missions of destruction, and to serve the unfortunate, but necessary, existance of the ritually impure ("unclean" in Christian parlance) are still Angles and they are still carrying out the divine will. As such we presume they have no power over a person's free will, or over the righteous.

We break these angles down into specific classes of angels: "nezzikin" are angels of destruction and "satanim" are angels of temptation, for instance, but they are angels nonetheless. Incidentally, satan (pronounced sah-tahn) isn't a proper name. It simply means "adversary" and the term "hasatan" (the adversary) is frequently used to refer to a person's evil inclination and not the archangel who oversees this group of angels. This archangel's name, which remains in the Jewish texts of Job and various midrashim, but is rendered The Satan in Christian texts, is Sammael.

With that said, we do have a concept of "demons" in the Jewish world, but they aren't the angels we've mentioned to this point - and the concept is very similar to the demons found in ancient Sumerian and Akaddian lore, which isn't hard to fathom since the patriarchs would have, and according to biblical texts, did come from that region and time period. In fact, many of the demons mentioned in Talmudic and Midrashic literature are the exact same demons mentioned in the texts of the ancient (meaning more ancient than the talmud and midrash) levant. Asmodeus is merely one perfect example.

In Jewish parlance these entities are called "sheidim" and are not wholly physical or spiritual. They are something in between. They are not believed to be normally visible to the eye, but the talmud suggests the mind would go mind with the seeing of them if you could see them - and presents a formula for how to go about seeing them (its weird, but I can find it for you if you want). There are references to rituals intended to ward off demons in the Talmud, and a few references to encounters between demons and religious leaders in the mishnaic era (from about -350 to 100 CE).

In one such account is states the fabled Rabbi Akiva confronted the Demon Queen who was, with a horde of demons, presumably only visible to him and few other tzaddikim (righteous ones, loosely translated as saints) trying to overrun Jerusalem. According to the account in question he banished her (and her horde) to the shadows, alleys, and ruins, but then found she still had free reign at night when the whole world was in shadows, so he banished her to the back alleys and ruins. There is no explanation of why he didn't just banish her from the city altogether.

There is also a debate about whether or not trafficking with demons is proscribed. The Talmud says it is not proscribed, but essentially says one who does so is a fool, but there is a rabbinic decree forbidding it in a later text published in the latter middle ages. The decree is debated by a well known rabbi whose father was a real giant of Torah, who he claims spoke with demons for information in order to protect the community. So we see that there isn't an automatic assumption that demons are evil, though most tales of them seem to indicate they are frequently malevolent.

An excellent example of this is the tale of the Golem of Prague. The account put to paper by the Maharal's son-in-law stated the Maharal used a demon who had been friendly to the Jews in the past to animate the Golem - stating the Maharal was looking for a "volunteer." He also says the Maharal told him the demon was granted a place in the world to come for his efforts, which would indicate demons are judged as are men. A separate transdimensional species, mayhap? Most of the demons we have mentioned by name in our tradition, however, are ancient levantine demons who are often depicted as devils or fallen angels by the Christian tradition, but whose roots predate even the Jewish faith.

Lilith, contrary to popular belief and a few books written by Jewish feminists today (and a horde of websites), doesn't appear in any authentic Jewish text before 1300 CE, and the text she does appear in is a kabbalistic commentary that most people take with a grain of salt. The quotes they claim come from the midrash having to do with her being Adam's wife before Eve simply don't exist. I tried to look every single one of them up in the actual source texts and couldn't find them. I question whether she's even authentic from the perspective of Jewish tradition.

Too long, too dull, time to sign off.

[Savinien]

That is a pretty frickin' awesome account, Von D-Man.

I would rep you if I had any idea what 'reppin' someone meant!

N00bs!

[Rapier]

I simplified things and took the definition Robert Aspirin uses in his Myth series. A Demon is anyone who is not from the local dimension.

If someone from the dimension/plane of Hell is on Earth, they are a Demon. If you or I are in the dimension/plane of Hell...we are the Demon.

Some Demons are from nice, fuzzy, happy planes of existence...others are REALLY REALLY not.

This has the side benefit of grouping SFX. A Banish Demon EDM UAA power will send anyone to their home plane of existence. You don't need to worry about the definition of Demon (does it only work vs evil demons? only vs demons from a certain plane? etc).

[tkdguy]

That is a pretty frickin' awesome account, Von D-Man.

I would rep you if I had any idea what 'reppin' someone meant!

N00bs!
To "rep" someone is to give reputation. Look at the top right corner of the post. First is the number of posts in the thread when you posted. In your case, it is post number 4. The scale is the reputation button; it allows you to give reputation. The last sign will allow you to report a bad post.

[Susano]

My work on THE HERO SYSTEM ASIAN BESTIARY has turned up some "demons" from Asia, but few of them are from any sort of hell. Most are malovent, evil spirits who actively do man harm. Some are from the Other/Underworld, such as the Chinese demons sent out by the Yama kings to collect ghosts, the dead, and such.

Japanese Oni live in Jingoku, or hell, ruled by Lord Emma, and have specific jobs (tormenting sinners, causing trouble, wrecking havoc), and can be converted to Buddhism.

Indian demons are a varied lot, but many were created by or from the gods and have been charged with specific tasks as well (although these tasks tend not to be pleasent ones...). The Rakshasa, for example, tend to be evil (eat people, drink blood, rape women), but men have married beautiful Rakshasa women, and there have been pious Buddhist (err... make that Hindu) Rakshasa (who have helped heroes oppose their evil brethern). Few of these beings come from "hell."

There is a whole host of Filipino demons, most of which dwell in the forests and/or specific trees. They are truely bizzare (what do you say about a headless demon who carries its severed head in one hand and smokes huge, foul-smelling cigars?), and can range from simply troublesome, to out and out lethal.

As I don't have my notes where, I'm going to stop before I mis-quote. Also, I'd rather not spill anything before the book comes out! :)

[Blue Jogger]

So, when is a demon not really a demon? Does it really depend on which fantasy world you're in? And what if you're doing a modern-fantasy game and want your demons to be equally mysterious and ambiguous?

Really, honestly, a demon is when a demon stops being a monster and starts being known as a person. Who has a name (besides his True Name), has a place where he lives, and interacts with the local community. When he sees Susan, who he sees almost everyday, he says "Hi Susan!"

If spreads his great leathery bat wings, has red skin (half naked), and looks over at Susan and says, "I shall drag your soul back to Hell!" Then he, pretty much a demon.

Now, between those extremes, lies the mysterious and ambiguous. If Susan suddenly disappears and this stranger was the last to see her (and other people that the stranger knew, disappeared also), then you don't know it was Susan's friend, but he might be a good suspect. Strangers are mysterious, they don't live exactly close, but they are often seen around town. They may accept business deals which work surprisely work well for them. No one seems to know exactly where he lives, because he doesn't live in town.

Adding layers upon layers like this, can build the mystique about anyone. Each layer should sound perfectly reasonable. Each one thing that becomes concrete, "See, he lives in this cabin in the woods" should add two more layers. "What a minute, what is a cabin doing out here in the woods?" and "This house is remarkably sturdy considering the style seems to be a hundred years old."

[Rapier]

Not sure how much this helps, but I was thinking that at its basest level you could define demon as "malevolent or evil spirit."

I guess it depends on why you are asking. If it is solely for the player's benefit, I don't think there is any problem with generalising. Its like calling any disembodied spirit a ghost. Maybe its a poltergeist, or a ghast, or a ghost, or an astral projection that can't find its body.

If you are trying to determine it because of a Dispel/AntiSummon, that could cause more difficulties.

I would be (and still am) tempted to use the term 'Demon' in the same frame I would use 'Undead.' It's a general classification for a group of beings that are loosely related.

[Markdoc]

And in my game "demon" is commonly held by wizards to be a worn-down form of "dimensional traveller" - in other words, not from around these parts.

These days the word is taken to mean "not from around these parts and nasty-looking to boot". If it was clearly extra-terrestrial but looked and behaved nicely it would be called a muse, or an angel or an avatar or a good spirit, depending on how it did and who was talking.

cheers, Mark

[Metaphysician]

Complete aside, but I think an interesting element for a cosmology would be a war between two types of demons: "loyal" ones who fill the roll of tempting mortals to test them, and then punishing sinners; versus "rebels" who tempt mortals in order to gain power, and if anything seek to punish the righteous.

[Foxx!]

Michael Hopcroft!

Demons in Japan are like dragons in Europe. They are powerful, magical creatures who live apart from humans. They are wild and dangerous, but they are not evil. They are a race of people who have super powers and use them selfishly. Like Susano says, there are Oni in Buddhist hells, but they just punish bad people. Their goal isn’t to be evil, they don’t try to corrupt people, and they’re not fighting a war against good. It’s probably better to think of them as trolls, ogres, or giants.

In stories, they are often put into the role of the bad guy. They take over castles, kidnap, steal, kill, etc. But they are no different than Vikings. Many times they are neutral but dangerous agents who are a way of introducing magic or magic items into a story. The hero is captured by Oni but escapes by using a magic item he steals from them, and the Oni never bother to take it back. I’ve never heard of good Oni, but sometimes they do good things in return for service. Some Oni give magic help or magic items to people who make good food, good sake alcohol, or even liven up one of their parties. However, usually such service is demanded by force at the start. In Akita, there is a legend of Namahage Oni. They go round at New Years and collect bad children as food, but ignore good people.

It’s interesting that the purely evil demons I can think of are all humans who turned into demons. Gaki in are humans who turned into demons because of their greed, and they mindlessly attack and eat anything living, sometimes each other. Yasha, at least according to one story, is a woman who turned into a demon from grudge she held against people because no one would help her when she and her child were homeless.

Cheers!

[Susano]

Gaki in are humans who turned into demons because of their greed, and they mindlessly attack and eat anything living, sometimes each other.

Actually, Gaki are hungry ghosts not demons. Their greed in life causes them to rise after death and hunger after almost anything -- blood, food, drink, smells, and... well, some nasty stuff. And no matter how much they eat (or try to) they are never satisfied.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I would consider a "Demon" to be any otherworldly being who does not fall into the category of Spirit, Elemental, Faerie or Guardian (a "Guardian" being agents of the Lords of Light, or whatever) and who acts in a malevolent manner towards mortals (destruction, trafficking in souls, etc)

And Von D-man; Thanks for the info bro. That kinda stuff is right up my alley.

About Lillith: Do you know what the Kabballistic texts say about her. In christian sources, she is mentioned in one of the apocrychal texts (I forget which one...the book of Enoch perhaps?) though, within the standard Old-Testament, there is mention of "Lillim"....The Children of Lillith perhaps? Some scholard believe this to be so.

[Vondy]

I would consider a "Demon" to be any otherworldly being who does not fall into the category of Spirit, Elemental, Faerie or Guardian (a "Guardian" being agents of the Lords of Light, or whatever) and who acts in a malevolent manner towards mortals (destruction, trafficking in souls, etc)

And Von D-man; Thanks for the info bro. That kinda stuff is right up my alley.

About Lillith: Do you know what the Kabballistic texts say about her. In christian sources, she is mentioned in one of the apocrychal texts (I forget which one...the book of Enoch perhaps?) though, within the standard Old-Testament, there is mention of "Lillim"....The Children of Lillith perhaps? Some scholard believe this to be so.

I'll write something about this later, when I get back from work, maybe. I'm on my way out the door right now. As for lilim - its a greek word and it references the lamiae. As for Lilith - she is an acient indo-european demon who appears in sumerian texts, but we don't see a reference to her in the Jewish corpus until the middle ages. The earliest is the text I mentioned, while the most well known is the Zohar. The Zohar, however, has some other issues...