Brick in a Forcewall

[ScotMartin]

The hero Mr. Force has the Forcewall power with enough inches to enclose targets. He also has a SPD 5 and Dex 24.

The villain Mr. Brick is a standard brick. No ranged attacks. 60 STR. He has a SPD of 5 and Dex 23.

These two fight and Mr. Force uses every action to enclose Mr. Brick in a 12 PD Forcewall. Mr. Brick is thus forced to spend every action smashing down the Forcewall (his casual strength is probably not going to knock down the wall).

Ignoring END, and the possibility of missing on the Forcewall attack (which rarely happens attacking a hex), will this fight go on forever? Does Mr. Brick have some sort of combat option to deal with this? An abort to dive for cover would just leave Mr. Brick prone on the ground rather than enclosed in a Forcewall and Mr. Force would just get another chance to envelop him on his next phase. It seems that this is an awfully easy way to contain Mr. Brick.

Thanks for whatever info you can give,
-Scot

[Steve Long]

This seems like a tactics sort of question to me, not a rules question, so I've moved it to "Discussion" to allow others to participate.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Try using Move Through on the Force Wall instead of just punching it. If you do enough damage to get through (and you presumably will), you can continue your movement after breaking the wall. In this manner, Mr. Brick may be able to reach a position where Mr. Force can't get at him with the Force Wall, or even manage to whack the annoying Mr. Force. ;)

[Hugh Neilson]

I like Derek's suggestion. You can Move Through to get behind cover, or just move through to an object you can throw through the force wall to hit Mr. Force.

While the tactic is quite effective against a target who can't evade or attack back through the wall (esoteric attacks; ranged attacks; etc.). It is normally the case that a character can be targetted against a weak area (range, possibly movement, in this case) and be effectively nullified. Mr. Force has presumably paid at least 48 points to make this a 12 PD Wall, 1 extra facing, Transparent to Energy, in order to have this power. He shou;d be able to use it, just as Mr. Brick can use the 60 STR he paid 50 points for. A character designed to take advantage of another character's weaknesses while avoiding his strengths can always be designed.

When the game goes against you, change the rules. Brick will have to use his brain, not his brawn, to come up with a tactic to break the impasse. Perhaps you don't try to break the force wall on your phase. Just stand there and reserve (or take a recovery...). Will Mr. Force drop the wall, or just let you take free recoveries while he continues to pay END on his wall? If he chooses to attack, Dive for Cover to end up in his hex, or one with decent cover. Now he can't just encapsulate your hex.

Note that, while Brick is rendered ineffectual, so is Mr. Force. All he can do is keep encapsulating Brick, so both are removed from the larger conflict. Or Brick's allies can show some teamwork and either break the force wall or "break" Mr. Force. My personal favourite would be Mental Illusions on Mr. Force to make him perceive Brick as the mentalist and vice versa. Now Mentalist has a 12 PD force wall to protect him (which his mental attacks just fire out of) and Brick is free to go pound some other opponents.

[ScotMartin]

I had considered the Move Through, but dismissed it because I figured Mr. Brick didn't have room to get any momentum going. I guess that was flawed thinking. He can do it, but just won't get any extra damage from velocity, correct?

[jackalope]

"I've always said she was the most powerful amongst you." - Dr. Doom, refering to The Invisible Woman.

[mudpyr8]

Well, you could always "Hurry". That adds 1d6 to your DEX and while it does give you a -2 to your action, if you have to punch a wall you will probably stil hit.

I would hurry every phase until I got to go and then I'd throw a car at the guy. Put him on the defensive.

I don't really see it as a problem.

Or, pick up a bus. If he doesn't have enough inches to englobe the bus, you are free... TO THROW THE BUS AT HIM!!!

MR. BRICK SMASH!!! AAAGGGHHH!!!

[Hyper-Man]

I had considered the Move Through, but dismissed it because I figured Mr. Brick didn't have room to get any momentum going. I guess that was flawed thinking. He can do it, but just won't get any extra damage from velocity, correct?
not true.

running only takes 1" to get to full velocity.
leaping doesn't need any room for a 'standing' leap.

hypothetical situations like this make me think that Forcewalls need to be customized in some manner to be effective. A generic PD=ED at campaign AP/DC limits is actually pretty ineffectual if haymakers are considered. I would allow the FW to have a primary defense 2-4 points higher if it has limitations like feedback for example.

[Rapier]

Ignoring END, and the possibility of missing on the Forcewall attack (which rarely happens attacking a hex), will this fight go on forever? Does Mr. Brick have some sort of combat option to deal with this?
Mr Brick: "Um, guys little help here?"
Mr FireGuy blasts Mr Force
Ms MentalGirl blasts Mr Force
Mr ArmouredDude pucnhes Mr Force
Mr Force is unconscious
Force Wall drops
Mr Brick is FREE!

This is the prototypical problem with some supercombats. Brick A is 60 STR with 40 DEF, Brick B is 60 STR with 40 DEF. WHY would they pound on each other? Brick A should be smacking around Mentalist 1, while Energy Projector Delta blasts away at Brick A.

While its always good tactics for Force Guy to keep Mr Brick pinned down [I've got an Entangle Guy I like to use for just this kind of thing], Mr Brick's friends would be insane to let a heavy hitter be neutralised so easily. Villains get tactics too, you know.

[zornwil]

(snip)

Or Brick's allies can show some teamwork and ... "break" Mr. Force.

Heh, I can see a big brick handing a (literally) crumpled Mr. Force to the police, "Uh, sorry, we hadda break him..."

[C++]

How about the brick punching through the ground if he's in the middle of the street or in a building? 60 STR is probably too weak to do much of a shockwave, but in a building, it could also cause the building to collapse and if the mental guy was in it, he wouldn't be having too much fun.

[TaxiMan]

running only takes 1" to get to full velocity. leaping doesn't need any room for a 'standing' leap.

IIRC, that's not true. I think you get 5" of velocity per 1" travelled, until you reach your maximum speed. And, weird as it sounds, the same is true of leaping. Just working from memory here, so feel free to straighten me out with facts!

[Oruncrest]

IIRC, that's not true. I think..

True, but you'll get +1½D6 to add to your STR. And if you break thru the forcewall, you can elect to just keep going. If you stated your move thru facing Mr. Force, and you have an unobstructed path to him (assuming you broke out), you might be able to do a move thru on Mr. Force (at -2OCV of course).

[Chris Goodwin]

I had considered the Move Through, but dismissed it because I figured Mr. Brick didn't have room to get any momentum going. I guess that was flawed thinking. He can do it, but just won't get any extra damage from velocity, correct?

This is correct. But with his 60 STR he should be able to take down the Force Wall, after which point he's still performing the Move Through. At which point Mr. Force better make sure his insurance is paid up....

[jackalope]

Mr. Brick might be able to kick off from one side of the force wall, and do a leaping Move-Through. Assuming Mr. Brick (with his 60 STR) has 12" of Leap, he would travel 6" from a standing leap. That would give him an extra 2 DC, and ensure he moves a few inches each phase.

[Southern Cross]

Or he could just Haymaker the Force Wall...

[jackalope]

Or he could just Haymaker the Force Wall...

But that doesn't move him anywhere, and it leaves him set up to be caught in another one.

[Southern Cross]

This is true.

[ScotMartin]

Thanks everyone. I'm back to playing this game after a long absence and something similar to this came up in our first session. I know Mr. Brick's friends can help, but I figured there was something he could be doing on his own that was smarter than just punching the Force Wall each turn. Thanks for the suggestions.

There does seem to be a little disagreement on what, if any, velocity Mr. Brick has when he does either a running or leaping move through on the force wall, so I'll post that question on the rules forum and see what the "official" answer is.

Thanks again for the help!
-Scot

[Rapier]

Thanks everyone. I'm back to playing this game after a long absence and something similar to this came up in our first session. I know Mr. Brick's friends can help, but I figured there was something he could be doing on his own that was smarter than just punching the Force Wall each turn. Thanks for the suggestions.

There does seem to be a little disagreement on what, if any, velocity Mr. Brick has when he does either a running or leaping move through on the force wall, so I'll post that question on the rules forum and see what the "official" answer is.
Acceleration is 5" per 1" travelled (by default). I would give the character 5" of velocity as he leaves his hex. So he would at least have that.

Leaping might be different. I'm not sure, but you don't really accelerate during a leap. Shrug.

[Hugh Neilson]

Leaping might be different. I'm not sure, but you don't really accelerate during a leap. Shrug.

I think that was asked in the rules forum a while back, and Steve applied the same velocity restriction in the interests of game balance, acknowledging it required a logic override.

[Rapier]

I think that was asked in the rules forum a while back, and Steve applied the same velocity restriction in the interests of game balance, acknowledging it required a logic override.
Yep. Shortly after posting this I found it on the FAQ. He admits that it makes no logical sense, but it evens out with the rest of the Movement Powers so we pretend. :)

[jackalope]

I allow leap to reach full velocity at launch. Because, you know, that makes sense. I think it's balanced out by the fact that if you do a v10" leap, you actually have to leap 10", which can occasionally be painful. Also, not being able to change direction can suck.

[OddHat]

I allow leap to reach full velocity at launch. Because, you know, that makes sense. I think it's balanced out by the fact that if you do a v10" leap, you actually have to leap 10", which can occasionally be painful. Also, not being able to change direction can suck.

Megascale Superleap + Sewage Treatment Plant = Comedy Gold. :D

[Rapier]

I allow leap to reach full velocity at launch. Because, you know, that makes sense. I think it's balanced out by the fact that if you do a v10" leap, you actually have to leap 10", which can occasionally be painful. Also, not being able to change direction can suck.
Yeah. I would to. Amazingly enough, I can't recall ever having a situation where I needed to figure out acceleration rates for leaping. Not to say that I haven't, I most likely have, but I can't recall em.

Full velocity on leaping from ground zero.

[Hugh Neilson]

I allow leap to reach full velocity at launch. Because, you know, that makes sense. I think it's balanced out by the fact that if you do a v10" leap, you actually have to leap 10", which can occasionally be painful. Also, not being able to change direction can suck.

If we're going to bring to bring logic into the equation, our Brick friend should buy Megascale on his leaping. Leap 1" (1 KM). That's 500". He can add up to 166 2/3 d6 with his Move Through.

Of course, the OCV penalty would be horrific, but he can't very well "miss" the force wall that surrounds him, can he?

Now, if he had to take half that damage himself, he'd be deceased. But the Force Wall has only 12 DEF, so logically (there's that word again...) he should shatter it, take 12d6, lose a little velocity and move on (just like he would if he had been suffering Knockback). He's now well out of Mr. Force's range. Heck, even if it's a 24 DEF wall, he takes 24d6 on the way through and his momentum should still carry him out of range. All my villain Bricks would buy it for an easy escape from Stronghold.

Sometimes, logic has to take a back seat to game balance.

[TaxiMan]

I bet Stronghold has technology to drain strength and movement from prisoners. Or they wouldn't be prisoners, as you point out.

[Hugh Neilson]

I bet Stronghold has technology to drain strength and movement from prisoners. Or they wouldn't be prisoners, as you point out.

Mr. Stronghold Warden, meet Mr. ACLU Head of Legal Team (do we still have hotsleep issues in 5e Champions Universe?)

[OddHat]

Mr. Stronghold Warden, meet Mr. ACLU Head of Legal Team (do we still have hotsleep issues in 5e Champions Universe?)

Well, if we're going to be logical ( ;) ), 9/11 proves that civil rights mean nothing when the public is faced with the threat of a single individual or small group of individuals able to cause the deaths of thousands. Post-Detroit, CU Supervillains would be lucky to ever stand trial, let alone call on the ACLU.
Of course, the CU is not logical, so no worries.

[GoldenAge]

How about the brick punching through the ground if he's in the middle of the street or in a building? 60 STR is probably too weak to do much of a shockwave, but in a building, it could also cause the building to collapse and if the mental guy was in it, he wouldn't be having too much fun.

Or after blasting through the street the brick is now in the sewers and the FF projector in a load of trouble.

This situation is really more of a player I.Q. test than a power problem. Clever players should have no problem with this scenario.

Remember, where bricks are concerned... the WORLD is their weapon.

[Vondy]

You might also consider sweep and rapid attack maneuvers - allowing you to take more than one action as a full phase. If the brick isn't moving and has something to throw he might (depending on the GM) be able to knock down the force wall and get a throw in too depending on the description of the SFX. Maybe a power-throw of a manhole cover that takes down the force wall on the backswing and sends the improvised discus at Mr. Force on the follow-through. Hurrying a move-through also works. At the very least you can close the range.