Buffy / Angel "Old Ones" for HERO

[PaRappaTheRappe]

I was discussing the mythology Joss Whedon set for BtVS and Angel.


"This world is older than any of you know and contrary to popular mythology, it did not begin as a paradise. For untold aeons, demons walked the earth, made it their home, their hell. But in time they lost their purchase on this reality. A way was made for mortal animals, for man. All that remains of the Old Ones are vestiges. Certain magicks. Certain creatures."

"The books tell of the last demon to leave this reality, fed off a human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed affected by the demon's soul. He bit another and another. And so they walk the earth, feeding, killing some, mixing their blood with others to make more of their kind. Waiting for the animals to die out and the Old Ones to return."
-Giles to Scoobies, BtVS "The Harvest, Part 2"



And in Angel episode 103 "A Hole in the World" we get to see one of the Old Ones, Illyria, and learn about things like the Deeper Well.

My question is, how can we design Old Ones, demons, and vampires to fit this cosmology? Are demons weak Old Ones, or servitors thereof? The Toruk-Han from BtVS S7 are apparently either the proto-vampiric demons or the first iteration of mixed demon-human vampires (but in the latter case, why are they too locked away beyond the Hellmouth?), so it could go either way. If the Toruk-Han are the first generation of the hybrid form, all's well since the wouldn't need the pure elemental power of the Old Ones. If they are the original demons, they are so weak compared to Illyria they must surely be servitors, as are the myriad other demonic species on the Whedonverse.

Also, judging from the sarcophogai in the Deeper Well, the Old Ones are humanoid creatures to begin with. How would they match up to a creature such as Glory (when she was a true Hellgoddess, at least)? Are the Old Ones and Hellgods of the same lineage, or at least at parity when it comes to power?

[CourtFool]

I was not a big fan of Angel and that is probably why I am not really sure I am following you here. My best guess from what you presented here and my limited knowledge of the Buffyverse would be that you have Old Ones, a plethora of demon types that are weaker and possibly serve the Old Ones and vampires which are descendents of one particular type of demon.

[OddHat]

I loved Buffy (or at least the first five seasons) and Angel (all of it), but there cosmology and continuity were a mess, not to mention the power fluxuations. You can fan-wank away much of it, but in the end you're better off making your own rules from base principles rather than trying to mirror the show.

If I were doing it, I'd do something like this:

1) The Powers that Be, Senior Partners, Hell Gods and Old Ones are all the same species, utterly non-human in form. Most of them are shape changers, but the change itself can severely limit their power. A civil war among their ranks banned the most powerful members of this speceis from our world.

2)"Pure" Demons are either weak or young versions of the species of the Old Ones, created as servants and experiments. However, they can rise to join the ranks of their creators (Wolf, Ram and Hart managed this). These are the creatures that cross-bred with species on many worlds, and left behind all the lesser forms of demon that are able to operate on Earth. Even "human" spellcasters have a touch of Demon blood, which is why they tend to take on an inhuman appearance as they become more powerful or cast their most powerful spells. Powerful "human" spellcasters may eventually become true Demons (Anyanka), either through their own power or the actions of outside forces.

3) The more power a Demon (including a spellcasting "human") accumulates, the less human he or she will appear. This is why many of the most powerful Vampires no longer look even slightly Human. However, one of the highest arts is that of physical shape changing. Vampires (such as Dracula) that master it are able to pass for human even if they have great power.

So, you have a clear link from Old One (Purest and most powerful of the pure bloods, not the slightest hint of humanity) down to Johnathan (looked completely human, thought he was human, but the faintest taint of Demon blood allowed him to learn magic and even physically transform himself).

Add or subtract as you like; your call is as good as any other fan's. ;)

[Funksaw]

I usually pooh-pooh this by using the Unknown Armies cosmology in my Angel/Buffy games.

[CraterMaker]

What is the Unknown Armies cosmology?

-CraterMaker

[NuSoardGraphite]

What I would like to do is to "break down" the hierarchy of the various "powers" found in the Buffy-verse.

I'm thinking it would go something like this:

PTB (Powers that Be)
The First
Old Ones and Hell Gods (like Glory)
True Demons (the Mayor's master)
Half Demons (the more powerful types)
Quasi Demons (Vampires, Werewolves, many of the fodder that Buffy and Angel fight regularly)
Enchanted Humans (those humans who have a bit of demon blood in them or perhaps descended from gods or whatever, like Johnathan and Willow, though Willow manages to rise above the power level of even a Half Demon)
Normal Everyday mortal or animal.

I consider the PTB to be the Buffy-verse version of True Gods...those forces of nature that drives the universe in whatever fashion they see fit. Fate, Law, Chaos, Creation, Life, Death, whathaveyou.

The First is, of course, the "ultimate evil" in the Buffy-verse. No demon is more powerful than The First, because they ultimately derive their power from "it" in the first place.

We all know what Old Ones and Hell Gods were like. I consider Wolfram and Hart (the Wolf, the Ram and the Hart) on this level. I'm still unsure exactly what they were or what they represent, but I got the impression they were something on the level of pagan deities.

True Demons are those entities just below the power level of a Hell God...these are the guys that are locked away from earth (along with the Old Ones and Hell Gods) Just one "True Demon" is more than any earth hero can handle.

Half Demons; These guys are the toughest of the enemies regularly faced by Buffy and Angel...the types they have a real problem dealing with. They are much closer to True Demons that vampires and werewolves, but not nearly as powerful as their parents. Generally a hybrid of True Demon and some alien (or perhaps earthly) creature (including Demon/Human hybrids)

Quasi Demon: Typical Vampires, Werewolves, tough guys and cannon fodder for Buffy and Angel. Elder Vampires can rise above this level, even so far as to become as powerful as a Half Demon.

Buffy fits firmly between Half Demon and Quasi Demon. She has trouble beating Half Demons on her own (usually she gets them through skill or trickery) but Quasi Demons aren't much of a challenge for her (she can brute force these guys to death). Angel, though not ancient, has increased his abilities to the point where he's tougher than 99% of the Quasi Demons, though he's not quite as tough as Buffy.

Here's a tentative point breakdown:

PTB: Yeah Right!
The First: Why Bother. At least 5000 pts
Old Ones/Hell Gods: 1000+ pts
True Demons: 500+ pts
Half Demons: 250+ pts
Quasi Demons: 150+ pts
Enchanted Humans: 75+ pts
Normal humans: 50pts or less.

Buffy and Angel, being better than Quasi Demons, but less than Half Demons would probably be built on 200 pts. Spike would be built on 175pts. (less than Buff and Angel, but better than 75% of the vampires out there)