Squeaky wheel gets the grease

[lensman]

This is a end user / ergonomic design message.

I preface my commments with words of praise for all the work and hours that Dan has put into HD, I do have issues with drsign.

My major gripe is all the labor I put in just trying to maneuver around HD for the sake of streamlined code. I have to criss cross the screen and click through so many boxes it is frustating.

1. Check boxes for active point display for every line item.
Give a section for all or nothing on the character or by tab.

2. Skill tab should have right click for incrs or decrs of Skill rolls

3. Adding modifiers to anything is the worst transgresion against the user. After I select a Adv or Lim I go bacvk to the power and need to start again. Leave me in the adv or Lim menu or multiple selections or one after the other.

4. Power frameworks. Why does it take more than one selection to construct one of these. Probably the most used selections for Hero gamers are the frameworks or package deals.

5. Inability to cut and paste common lims or adv. This is indictive of th ecompartmentization mentality of a programmer and his approach to code rather than any thought to the end user and fluidity and simplicity of use.
Arguements for use of lists in this case is just circular logic.

In the end I do not blame the programmer. I blame the lack of quality control and the decision made either to lay "hands off" approach or the the decision that anything was better than nothing.
I have read many of Dan's posts and it seems these problems are beyond repair, due to design.
HD seems to have suffered froma lack of vision. Playtesting that took place appearently could not see the forest for the trees. So caught up in stressing components, no one seems to have had me, the end user in mind.

Think I am wrong? Show me.

[Simon]

OK, first off, I'd appreciate it if you'd drop the attitude. I was tempted not to even respond to this post because of it.

1. That's exactly what I'm planning on for v2. The checkbox will remain so that you can turn the Active Point label on or off on individual powers, but there will be a general preferences screen where you can set the "default".

2. It's possible. I'm considering using some popup menus in v2, but am still undecided on the matter. In general, I tend not to like popup menus.

3. "The worst transgression against the user"? Really? I can think of far worse things that could have been done. It is something that I'm looking at changing a bit in v2, but I think you're SERIOUSLY over-reacting here. You're actively less likely to get results from me when you take that approach....

4. I have no idea what you're talking about here. To construct a Power Framework, you select the Framework type from the "Power Frameworks" menu and then get a dialog allowing you to define the required attributes of the Framework (points, etc.). That's it. You can then start adding Powers to it. Where's the difficulty?

5. Again, attitude. Rephrase this one without the attitude and I may actually respond to it.

I think you have very little uderstanding for either myself, the application or code in general. I would suggest that you might get a bit more in the way of change to the app if you took a different approach and actually tried to have a conversation. <b>Without</b> hurling insults or condescension.

You're welcome to have issues with the design of the app. It is impossible to please everyone. I wrote the app to match my goals, the goals of Hero Games, and the desires that were expressed to me on these message boards. The response that I've gotten to the app so far as been overwhelmingly positive.

If you don't like the app, that's your perogative...but it puts you in the minority. Does this mean that I won't change things to try to make the app more to your liking? No. But it does mean that any changes that you want will be balanced against what I feel the majority of the users will like. So far, my record in those decisions has been pretty good.

So. Shall we have an actual conversation about this, or would you rather continue with the attitude?

[mudpyr8]

Seriously, lensman, do you really believe that your holier-than-thou attitude is the way to get a response from the developer? Not to mention the fact that any of us in the community who see your posts in the future are less likely to respond simply on the basis of not wanting to deal with such a rude attitude.

I commend dsimon for taking the time to consider your suggestions in spite of your tone, not to mention the audacity of your poll.

[nHammer]

I have had NO problems with HD the way it is. Is it such a problem that you may have to click a few extra times for some things (power frameworks). Sounds like lensman is lazy and wants the program to do everything.

dsimon, I demand voice recognition for HD. I'm tired of having to move my hands.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

HD is a well done and downright awsome program.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by dsimon
OK, first off, I'd appreciate it if you'd drop the attitude. I was tempted not to even respond to this post because of it.

1. That's exactly what I'm planning on for v2. The checkbox will remain so that you can turn the Active Point label on or off on individual powers, but there will be a general preferences screen where you can set the "default".

2. It's possible. I'm considering using some popup menus in v2, but am still undecided on the matter. In general, I tend not to like popup menus.

3. "The worst transgression against the user"? Really? I can think of far worse things that could have been done. It is something that I'm looking at changing a bit in v2, but I think you're SERIOUSLY over-reacting here. You're actively less likely to get results from me when you take that approach....

4. I have no idea what you're talking about here. To construct a Power Framework, you select the Framework type from the "Power Frameworks" menu and then get a dialog allowing you to define the required attributes of the Framework (points, etc.). That's it. You can then start adding Powers to it. Where's the difficulty?

5. Again, attitude. Rephrase this one without the attitude and I may actually respond to it.

I think you have very little uderstanding for either myself, the application or code in general. I would suggest that you might get a bit more in the way of change to the app if you took a different approach and actually tried to have a conversation. <b>Without</b> hurling insults or condescension.

You're welcome to have issues with the design of the app. It is impossible to please everyone. I wrote the app to match my goals, the goals of Hero Games, and the desires that were expressed to me on these message boards. The response that I've gotten to the app so far as been overwhelmingly positive.

If you don't like the app, that's your perogative...but it puts you in the minority. Does this mean that I won't change things to try to make the app more to your liking? No. But it does mean that any changes that you want will be balanced against what I feel the majority of the users will like. So far, my record in those decisions has been pretty good.

So. Shall we have an actual conversation about this, or would you rather continue with the attitude?

Dan, you should just let this stuff lie if it bugs you, responding doesn't help you or them. Just ignore it if you perceive an "attitude". I am not commenting on the poster or you or who is right or who is wrong.

[unmaker]

...

[BarryB]

Originally posted by nHammer
dsimon, I demand voice recognition for HD. I'm tired of having to move my hands.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[whiny tone on]I want it to read my mind and make the characters that I'm thinking of![whiny tone off] :D

Seriously, it's a wonderful program. The minor gripes I have about are just that, minor gripes. The overall utility of the program is wonderful.

[lensman]

Just so there is no doubt, I stand behind my first post, no matter how vitriolic some my find the language.

Although I did enjoy the salty, caustic ribbing from nHammer and BarryB.

To reconcile some of my comments, I wil not get into an arguement of semantics; so that I can avoid the crime of sounding holier-than-thou.

Humby, I consider myself to have such knowledge and understanding of the Hero system that character creation is an art not a task. It is this, that colors my opinion of HD as it is now.
I am not looking for rule enforcement in the software nor attention to non-game related matters such as WG.
I wil also add that my comments are motiivated because of, not in spite of, my zealous, even evangelical support of Hero system.

Weaponsmith issues
Each additional category costs 1 pt. not 2
There is no fam. box for this skill and there should be.

[Simon]

Originally posted by lensman
Humby, I consider myself to have such knowledge and understanding of the Hero system that character creation is an art not a task. It is this, that colors my opinion of HD as it is now.
And I would contest that, after having spent the time that I have both playing the HERO System and working with Steve on Hero Designer that I know a thing or two about character creation as well. Perhaps I know a few things that have slipped by your notice.



I am not looking for rule enforcement in the software nor attention to non-game related matters such as WG.

Then HeroDesigner may not be for you. It was designed (and has been stated to be) a chargen that helps enforce the rules of the HERO System.



Weaponsmith issues
Each additional category costs 1 pt. not 2
Oh mighty character creation master.....please try actually purchasing more than one category in Weaponsmith before complaining: that is exactly what HD does.


There is no fam. box for this skill and there should be.

Correct. This has been discussed many, many times now. There is no Familiarity box for the simple reason that many campaigns allow multiple categories as a familiarity. It is therefore easier (On everyone involved) to purchase a Custom Adder and set the points to whatever you wish.

[James_Kiley]

I think #3 and #5 are valid points. Flopping in and out of the adv/lim menu is the most time consuming thing I do.

I think the original poster's attitude is unnecessary.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by lensman
I am not looking for rule enforcement in the software nor attention to non-game related matters such as WG.
I wil also add that my comments are motiivated because of, not in spite of, my zealous, even evangelical support of Hero system.


Alas, then you are doomed for disappointment.

Steve Long, from the beginning, has stated that this software is to enforce the rules, and work according to the writer's guidelines. Dan didn't just pull stuff out of his butt to do things this way, it's because STEVE wanted it that way.

And, knowing Steve, he's not likely to change his mind on what he wants now.

I agree with your number three. It would be nice to be able to keep adding modifiers without having to go back out. It's not a game breaker for me though.

Because adding the modifiers one at a time, even for a huge power, will allow me to look at exactly what the active points are for each step, and see if I've hit a target number. "Damn, can't afford another +1/4" is something I've said to myself. And if I've added it all at once, then I have to remove things until I find what I want.

D

[Tasha]

Originally posted by lensman
This is a end user / ergonomic design message.

I preface my commments with words of praise for all the work and hours that Dan has put into HD, I do have issues with drsign.

My major gripe is all the labor I put in just trying to maneuver around HD for the sake of streamlined code. I have to criss cross the screen and click through so many boxes it is frustating.

1. Check boxes for active point display for every line item.
Give a section for all or nothing on the character or by tab.

2. Skill tab should have right click for incrs or decrs of Skill rolls

3. Adding modifiers to anything is the worst transgresion against the user. After I select a Adv or Lim I go bacvk to the power and need to start again. Leave me in the adv or Lim menu or multiple selections or one after the other.

4. Power frameworks. Why does it take more than one selection to construct one of these. Probably the most used selections for Hero gamers are the frameworks or package deals.

5. Inability to cut and paste common lims or adv. This is indictive of th ecompartmentization mentality of a programmer and his approach to code rather than any thought to the end user and fluidity and simplicity of use.
Arguements for use of lists in this case is just circular logic.

In the end I do not blame the programmer. I blame the lack of quality control and the decision made either to lay "hands off" approach or the the decision that anything was better than nothing.
I have read many of Dan's posts and it seems these problems are beyond repair, due to design.
HD seems to have suffered froma lack of vision. Playtesting that took place appearently could not see the forest for the trees. So caught up in stressing components, no one seems to have had me, the end user in mind.

Think I am wrong? Show me.

I was one of the Beta testers. We did raise some of your concerns. We were concerned with many issues with the product. There were MANY interface issues that Dan addressed well when we brought them to his attension. It was clear that the remaining minor issues that we had with the interface would be fixed in V2.0. I was happy enough with the interface that I didn't really stress about it. I think that HeroDesigner is a wonderful product. It is better than 70% of the utilities that I have ever owned when they were first introduced.

I agree with the others. Talking down to Dan isn't really likely to get your concerns taken seriously. Remember that this is a medium that really magnifies any scornful writing by a lot.

Actually the interface works pretty well. My Girlfriend was able to figure it out without much coaching. She could never figure out Hero Creator (Creation Workshop) . Which makes Hero Creator's interface pretty bad as she is a Software Engineer she has done interface work professionally.


My major gripe is all the labor I put in just trying to maneuver around HD for the sake of streamlined code.
What do you mean by this. If the code were more streamlined the whole thing would run much faster. Do you mean that his writing the code for Portability is what is causing you issues. Neither makes much sense to me as the interface doesn't have much to do with either.

1) I agree with you that being able to turn on or off Active Pts would be nice for the printout. I don't see the utiltiy of having the creation interface do it. Just some Export Templates that show the Active point cost of everything and ones that do not.

2) I don't care one way or the other abou tihs one. I don't really care for Right Click menus. It just clutters the interface. I would just rather enter the number into the box

3) I agree that it would be nice to be able to add advantages and limitations without having to open and close the advantage/limitations window all of the time.

4) I don't see what you mean about this taking multiple clicks. You just pull down the frameworks menu and select the framework. Choose the size of the pool and start adding powers. Not any more clicks than there have to bo.

5) In this one you are doing what my Girlfriend finds the most annoying in testers. When the tester assumes a certain behavior in the code that just isn't there. Couldn't you just have said that it would be nice to be able to copy/cut and paste advantages and limitaions across powers. I can see why this may not be doable as the program only shows the legal Advantages and limitations for the power being modified. Copying and paste would be adding a layer of difficulty to the code that a 1.x release didn't have the luxury of time to include.

In your final comments you really show how little you know about how this program was designed. It was VERY apparent that Steve was being consulted during every step of the process. Dan would contact him just to make sure that the rules would be reflected in Steve's way. I don't see the "hands off" aproach in this piece of software. I think that it is one of the best RPG character gen applications that I have ever used. Yes, I have tried many out and as a mac user I am VERY picky about interface.

Too bad that you decided to be so negative with your critisism. Insulting the programmer just isn't a good way to get him to change anything.

Tasha :)

[nHammer]

Originally posted by lensman

Although I did enjoy the salty, caustic ribbing from nHammer and BarryB.


I've never had any of my smartass comments describe like that before....I like it.:D :D ;)




from misterdeath
Dan didn't just pull stuff out of his butt to do things this way,

I don't know...my copy had a funny smell to it when I got it.:eek: :eek: ;) :D :D

[Herolover]

When I first got HD I was dissappointed. It wasn't horrible, but it just did a couple of things oddly and I wasn't sure if I really would be able to use it effectively. I would have given it a 4 out of 10 rating.

That was when I got it, but now that i have used it I have changed my attitude. There are a couple of things it does that I find annoying such as what was pointed out in no# 3, but it mainly does exactly what it is supposed to do.

Also, the number and quality of patches and updates is outstanding. I am sure many of the minor problems the program has will be fixed before v2 even comes out and I am looking forward to v2.

The only problem I have is I want more skins. I wish I knew how to make one. :(

[Tasha]

Originally posted by Herolover
When I first got HD I was dissappointed. It wasn't horrible, but it just did a couple of things oddly and I wasn't sure if I really would be able to use it effectively. I would have given it a 4 out of 10 rating.

That was when I got it, but now that i have used it I have changed my attitude. There are a couple of things it does that I find annoying such as what was pointed out in no# 3, but it mainly does exactly what it is supposed to do.

Also, the number and quality of patches and updates is outstanding. I am sure many of the minor problems the program has will be fixed before v2 even comes out and I am looking forward to v2.

The only problem I have is I want more skins. I wish I knew how to make one. :(

I want to see a version of the default Export Template that has both the Hit Location chart (The full one) and the active costs of Equipment.

We are using a powerpool magic system and having the spells on the equipment tab keeps them from being counted. Conversly if HD would just calculate the penalty of for the Skill roll for those powers that have the Requires a skill roll Limit.

Tasha

[Simon]

Originally posted by Tasha
I want to see a version of the default Export Template that has both the Hit Location chart (The full one) and the active costs of Equipment.

We are using a powerpool magic system and having the spells on the equipment tab keeps them from being counted. Conversly if HD would just calculate the penalty of for the Skill roll for those powers that have the Requires a skill roll Limit.

Tasha

If you want for Equipment to cost points, then put it on the Powers tab, not the Equipment tab.

As for the penalty on RSR, it depends entirely on the strength that the Power is used at. If you have a 12d6 EB with RSR, it will be a -6 to your roll if you use all 12 dice. If you use 6 dice, it will be a -3...and so on. HD doesn't note the minus because it can change based on the level that the Power is used at.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Tasha
I want to see a version of the default Export Template that has both the Hit Location chart (The full one) and the active costs of Equipment.

We are using a powerpool magic system and having the spells on the equipment tab keeps them from being counted. Conversly if HD would just calculate the penalty of for the Skill roll for those powers that have the Requires a skill roll Limit.

Tasha

Just an addendum to this, since I may have misunerstood what you're looking for with the Equipment:

If you don't want the abilities to cost points, but would like to see what they <i>would</i> have cost, since you'll be using them in a VPP, then put them into a VPP on the Equipment tab.

Or put them in a VPP on the Powers tab, if you want to pay for the VPP but not the "example Powers".

All items in a VPP will be given a cost of 0, in terms of the character, but will list their Real and (if applicable) Active Cost.

[Tasha]

Originally posted by dsimon
Just an addendum to this, since I may have misunerstood what you're looking for with the Equipment:

If you don't want the abilities to cost points, but would like to see what they <i>would</i> have cost, since you'll be using them in a VPP, then put them into a VPP on the Equipment tab.

Or put them in a VPP on the Powers tab, if you want to pay for the VPP but not the "example Powers".

All items in a VPP will be given a cost of 0, in terms of the character, but will list their Real and (if applicable) Active Cost.

Thanks, I will try that. I would have never thought to do it that way. Thanks again!

Now if only there was a template that wasa the "Official" 5th ed character sheet and had the Whole Hit location chart on it. I would be a very happy camper.

Thanks
Tasha :D

[Simon]

Originally posted by Tasha
Thanks, I will try that. I would have never thought to do it that way. Thanks again!

Now if only there was a template that wasa the "Official" 5th ed character sheet and had the Whole Hit location chart on it. I would be a very happy camper.

Thanks
Tasha :D

Search through this board a bit....there was a guy who was making exactly that. He posted it in his thread, I know....I'm not sure if he ever sent it in to Ben for posting to the Export Templates page in the Free Stuff section....

[RPMiller]

Originally posted by dsimon
Search through this board a bit....there was a guy who was making exactly that. He posted it in his thread, I know....I'm not sure if he ever sent it in to Ben for posting to the Export Templates page in the Free Stuff section.... You can find it here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2089).

[rayoman]

Then I replace the wheel because it was annoying me.

Anyway...Dan,

I am disliking one thing about HD. In order to set the template you have to have a character open. Now this is annoying me. Can it be fixed? Are you willing to fix it?

Just curious.

Thanks.

[Simon]

Originally posted by rayoman
Then I replace the wheel because it was annoying me.

Anyway...Dan,

I am disliking one thing about HD. In order to set the template you have to have a character open. Now this is annoying me. Can it be fixed? Are you willing to fix it?

Just curious.

Thanks.

I don't see the benefit of doing it any other way.

Let's say you start up HD fresh...no characters open.

In order for HD to run, it has to have a template loaded, so it loads in the Standard Super template by default.

Now, let's say you want to make a Standard Hero level character.

There's 2 options:

1) You start the character (using the currently loaded Standard Super template) and then change the template. Total "cost" of operations: 1 character creation, 1 template load

2) You change the tmeplate and then create the character. Total "cost" of operations: 1 character creation, 1 template load

There is no difference between the two.

Code-wise, it is a lot easier to only allow the template change when there is a character active. Logic-wise, this also makes sense.

So, in short (too late), I'm going to leave it the way it is.

[rayoman]

Good Enough.

[Tasha]

Originally posted by dsimon
Just an addendum to this, since I may have misunerstood what you're looking for with the Equipment:

If you don't want the abilities to cost points, but would like to see what they <i>would</i> have cost, since you'll be using them in a VPP, then put them into a VPP on the Equipment tab.

Or put them in a VPP on the Powers tab, if you want to pay for the VPP but not the "example Powers".

All items in a VPP will be given a cost of 0, in terms of the character, but will list their Real and (if applicable) Active Cost.

I just had a chance to play with this tonight. While the powers now do show real cost, the VPP doesn't apply any overall limits to the powers nested inside of it. This means that I must individually list the limits on each spell. So this doesn't work as well as I had hoped either. :/

BTW thanks for the Link to the Export Template. I hope that Ben puts it up on the free stuff area soon. Having the Hit location chart makes all the difference when you are playing Fantasy Hero.

I have attached the Character file incase you can see something that I have missed. I still have the spells listed in the equipment tab as well as the listed under the VPP.

Thanks again,

Tasha :)

[Daryl]

Originally posted by dsimon
I don't see the benefit of doing it any other way.

Let's say you start up HD fresh...no characters open.

In order for HD to run, it has to have a template loaded, so it loads in the Standard Super template by default.

Now, let's say you want to make a Standard Hero level character.

There's 2 options:
...


Even better: load the last used template on start. For most users, who are usually creating a series of characters for one game or genre, this saves them constantly changing templates.

--d