Oihid

[Gary]

Is anyone else annoyed at the OIHID limitation? It seems to me that this is one of the most abused limitations around. A 350 pt character who has OIHID on 250 of his points saves 50 pts, making him significantly more powerful than a 350 built straight. And in my experience, it doesn't usually come up enough to warrant that much savings. There's a limit to how much a GM can screw with a player before it stops becoming fun.

My suggestion is to make OIHID a Physical Limitation. 10 pts of Limitation for every 50 pts of power affected. X1/2 if it takes a phase or less to change into hero ID or if the character is almost never in "normal" ID, and X1.5 if it takes a full turn or longer to change into Hero ID as long as the character is in "normal" ID a fair amount of the time.

So Captain Marvel might take this on 1000 of his points, getting a 200 pt Physical Limitation X1/2 because it's trivial for him to say "Shazam". He nets 100 pts.

This Physical Limitation idea would also be good for powers that don't work in very rare situations not worth a full -1/4. Instead of getting a -1/4 for powers that don't work under a red sun or powers that don't work under a full moon (it's almost impossible to make these worth the points savings without tremendous contortions), the player would get a Physical Limitation where the points match how limiting it is for him.

The difference between having a power limitation and a physical limitation is that in many campaigns, there are limits to how many Disadvantages a player can take. Saving 50 pts through power limitations means that you're 50 pts more powerful. Saving 50 pts through physical limitations merely means that you have fewer additional disads that you must take.

[TaxiMan]

I'm in agreement with you here. I haven't seen OIHID "disadvantage" players very often, and the times it does seem forced.

The best use I've seen is to involve the PCs in a conflict in their secret IDs, but my players don't want to roleplay that aspect often enough for it to seem natural.

[OddHat]

Well, compared to the focus family of limits (which it plays a lot like) I don't see OIHID as a problem. I do take a step to make it more of a real limit in my games; I require the Heroic ID itself to carry some disadvantages that would make it awkward to constantly be the Hero, usually in the form of Distictive Features and sometimes Physical Limits. Of builds I posted recently:

Athenian - Can't pass for a normal woman in her Heroic ID

Kanae - Can't pass for human at all, and has no fine manipulation, plus other limits.

Caballero - Can't pass for a normal human in his Heroic ID, and has some minor physical limits.

That approach (imo) gives the player a real reason to stay Human in many parts of the adventure.

Counting Limitation points as part of disads doesn't really appeal to me, unless we do it that way with all limitations. Personally, if I were to dialow OIHID and make it a disad, I'd treat it like any other Phsyical Limit. In would be Greatly Impairing, and the Frequency would vary according to how often it was going to cause problems in game.

[Gary]

Well, compared to the focus family of limits (which it plays a lot like) I don't see OIHID as a problem. I do take a step to make it more of a real limit in my games; I require the Heroic ID itself to carry some disadvantages that would make it awkward to constantly be the Hero, usually in the form of Distictive Features and sometimes Physical Limits. Of builds I posted recently:

Athenian - Can't pass for a normal woman in her Heroic ID

Kanae - Can't pass for human at all, and has no fine manipulation, plus other limits.

Caballero - Can't pass for a normal human in his Heroic ID, and has some minor physical limits.

That approach (imo) gives the player a real reason to stay Human in many parts of the adventure.

Counting Limitation points as part of disads doesn't really appeal to me, unless we do it that way with all limitations. Personally, if I were to dialow OIHID and make it a disad, I'd treat it like any other Phsyical Limit. In would be Greatly Impairing, and the Frequency would vary according to how often it was going to cause problems in game.


How often do these characters get caught with their pants down, and how easy is it for them to switch forms?

I don't like treating OIHID like a regular physical disad. It has the potential to zap hundreds or thousands of points of the character, so IMO it should be worth more.

[Hyper-Man]

I think OIHID serves a purpose by allowing smaller roleplaying groups (3-4 players) to potentially still have a well-rounded group via slight increases to power level and variety with an otherwise smaller group of characters. This in turn allows a GM to still use published material at the ~350 point power levels without too much extra tweeking. It also presents an early storytelling opportunity when the Bad Guy of the Week TM shows up near the OIHID Hero while he/she is normal form. A sense of fun on both the player and GM is necessary to pull this off of course.

I and several others have used this limitation to construct otherwise difficult at best concepts that fit into a team. Superman and the Justice League is a perfect example. Any writeup of that team is either going to have Superman be almost double the points of the other characters OR apply an equivalent limitation to his powers (not in red solar radiation or near kryptonite).

I posted the character my board userid was named after on another recent thread and I suspect that it might have sparked the idea behind this thread which is cool. I applied most of the point benefits of OIHID on that character to non-combat powers, talents and skill enhancers. Primarily due to have a very small gaming group. If another player wanted to cover some of the bases that I designed that character to handle I could certainly drop 15-20 points in talents and/or powers. Combat wise, a equivalent power level of character could be constructed. I remember seeing Killer Shrike post a character, named appropriately Hype, several months ago that fits that bill quite nicely if I remember correctly.

[Hugh Neilson]

How often do these characters get caught with their pants down, and how easy is it for them to switch forms?

I don't like treating OIHID like a regular physical disad. It has the potential to zap hundreds or thousands of points of the character, so IMO it should be worth more.

Well, if it should be worth hundreds of points as a disadvantage, why shouldn't it be worth huindreds of points as a limitation? It seems to me all you're doing is capping the OIHID benefit at the campaign max for disadvantages from a single category.

While I don't see the need to eliminate it, I'm not aware of any player in any games I run or play in having taken it (of course, I haven't read their character sheets...). I agree with Oddhat that there must be some limitation at least as bad (frequently problematic) as an inobvious inaccessible focus (which, n my experience, isn't often either).

If I did eliminate it in favour of a physical limitation, I agree with Oddhat that there's no reason it should point out any different than any other physical limitation.

To the issue raised by HyperMan, I would rather see that solved by an across the board increase in points available to all characters (perhaps with the proviso they may only be spent in certain areas) than allow one character an effective point advantage.

[OddHat]

How often do these characters get caught with their pants down, and how easy is it for them to switch forms?

I don't like treating OIHID like a regular physical disad. It has the potential to zap hundreds or thousands of points of the character, so IMO it should be worth more.

All of them will have to spend time in human form in almost every adventure in the type of games I run; They can't have normal human lives in their enhanced forms. That's the point of the disads they're required to take. As to getting "caught with their pants down", they have that problem as often as anyone with a -1/4 IIF, which is kind of the point.

IMO, making all Limits disads, priced by how often and how much they actually interfere and saving no other points, might make sense. I don't see a compelling reason for pulling OIHID out and leaving most of the other -1/4 limits in.

[Sean Waters]

Miracle Man comic. Miracle Man is like Superman plus. He is almost all-powerful. He has to say a magic word to change from normal to 'god mode' (Kimota...sort of atomic backwards)

Big explosion all around him when he changes. Really dramatic.

Anyway, Evelyn Cream, something like a villain, gets in a lift with Mike Moran (MM in human form) and a mother and baby combo. Mike is asked to hold the baby and then Evelyn reveals he is there to shoot Mike, which he does. Can't change or it is crispy baby...

Same comic, there is a word that turns MM back into Mike Moran, forcing a reversal of OIHID. He also changes back when he says Kimota, whether he wants to or not. That doesn't happen often...

OK, that isn't how it works in HERO but there has to be some disadvantage to changing, even if it is only a time delay. You can always build other effects as outlined above. Something to spend those extra points on...

I do think OIHID is misused. I wouldn't allow it normally for purely offensive powers without good reason (you'll be in hero ID if you want to use them anyway so it isn't much of a disadvantage), but they are fine for defensive or part defensive powers and characteristics (including strength) so long as you define how the change takes place.

It can be devastating to a group to get hit out of Hero ID by a well prepared villain - one or two might get taken down before the fight gets going. You wouldn't want it to happen all the time, but for the points saving the player has to expect a quite serious down side now and then.

[Hugh Neilson]

If you really think it's abused, you can level the field with "only in villain ID". :)

You can then show the players how you believe that should be limiting by having something happen with the limitation now and then.

[OddHat]

If you really think it's abused, you can level the field with "only in villain ID". :)

You can then show the players how you believe that should be limiting by having something happen with the limitation now and then.

Agreed here. Many of the -1/4 limits are self-enforcing. 15 or less activation? Sooner or later you will blow the roll. Gestures? Eventually, you will be entangled. Of those that require more attention from the GM (OIHID, IIF, Incantations, etc), I haven't found OIHID to be less of a limit, as long as it's enforced.

[Gary]

Well, if it should be worth hundreds of points as a disadvantage, why shouldn't it be worth huindreds of points as a limitation? It seems to me all you're doing is capping the OIHID benefit at the campaign max for disadvantages from a single category.

You just answered your own question. Hundreds of points as a limitation effectively increases the characters power level by hundreds of points. Hundreds of points as a Disad is capped, and usually just means that the character has to take fewer other Disads.




While I don't see the need to eliminate it, I'm not aware of any player in any games I run or play in having taken it (of course, I haven't read their character sheets...). I agree with Oddhat that there must be some limitation at least as bad (frequently problematic) as an inobvious inaccessible focus (which, n my experience, isn't often either).

If I did eliminate it in favour of a physical limitation, I agree with Oddhat that there's no reason it should point out any different than any other physical limitation.

To the issue raised by HyperMan, I would rather see that solved by an across the board increase in points available to all characters (perhaps with the proviso they may only be spent in certain areas) than allow one character an effective point advantage.


I guess in my mind, I have a philosophical problem with a character who's effectively 400-450 pts 95% of the time, and 50-100 pts the other 5% of the time.

[Gary]

All of them will have to spend time in human form in almost every adventure in the type of games I run; They can't have normal human lives in their enhanced forms. That's the point of the disads they're required to take. As to getting "caught with their pants down", they have that problem as often as anyone with a -1/4 IIF, which is kind of the point.

IMO, making all Limits disads, priced by how often and how much they actually interfere and saving no other points, might make sense. I don't see a compelling reason for pulling OIHID out and leaving most of the other -1/4 limits in.


How much time does it take for them to switch forms? And how often do you enforce an IIF limitation?

I don't believe in removing all limitations. Just the ones that IMO aren't worth even a -1/4 without a lot of effort from the GM. Such as OIHID, and most of the "Not In" types of limitations such as Not In the light of a red sun.

[OddHat]

I guess in my mind, I have a philosophical problem with a character who's effectively 400-450 pts 95% of the time, and 50-100 pts the other 5% of the time.

Which is a problem with any limitation that covers a long list of powers. If you're not interested n making it count, you can always forbid it in your games. OIHID is (imo) no more of a problem than a character who takes an IIF Magic Ring or Incantations on some powers.

[Sean Waters]

I and several others have used this limitation to construct otherwise difficult at best concepts that fit into a team. Superman and the Justice League is a perfect example. Any writeup of that team is either going to have Superman be almost double the points of the other characters OR apply an equivalent limitation to his powers (not in red solar radiation or near kryptonite).

I posted the character my board userid was named after on another recent thread and I suspect that it might have sparked the idea behind this thread which is cool. I applied most of the point benefits of OIHID on that character to non-combat powers, talents and skill enhancers. Primarily due to have a very small gaming group. If another player wanted to cover some of the bases that I designed that character to handle I could certainly drop 15-20 points in talents and/or powers. Combat wise, a equivalent power level of character could be constructed. I remember seeing Killer Shrike post a character, named appropriately Hype, several months ago that fits that bill quite nicely if I remember correctly.

To my mind OIHID means you have NO ACCESS to the powers unless you change to hero ID, so I don't think Superman has OIHID: he still has the powers as CK, he just is shy about using them (although he always finds a way if he needs to).. I always play OIHID as they only have the powers in hero ID, otherwise it is just part of the points you get for Secret ID.

Also I would feel uncomfortable about letting non-combat powers benefit from OIHID: you will very very rarely be prevented from using non combat powers no matter what special effects your OIHID might have. Maybe if you can only use your devastating social skills when you are dressed in tights and a cape...

Realistically the only (well main) time OIHID is a disadvantage is when you are ambushed in normal ID, and so it is only really the powers that would be useful in thatsituation that I'd normally allow you to buy with OIHID - i.e. stuff you might want to abort to or otherwise defend yourself with.

Hugh Neilson and OddHat have it right, I feel.

Now who wants 'only in Normal ID'....as a superhero I'm rubbish, but in my normal ID I'm a god....

[Gary]

Which is a problem with any limitation that covers a long list of powers. If you're not interested n making it count, you can always forbid it in your games. OIHID is (imo) no more of a problem than a character who takes an IIF Magic Ring or Incantations on some powers.


The Incantations usually aren't a problem. They rarely cover virtually the entire character's points and there is an obvious way for the opposition to stop the power.

The IIF is more problematic. If it rarely if ever comes into play while covering the majority of a character's points, then I would support the same thing as OIHID. Just like most of the "Not In" limitations.

[OddHat]

How much time does it take for them to switch forms? And how often do you enforce an IIF limitation?

I don't believe in removing all limitations. Just the ones that IMO aren't worth even a -1/4 without a lot of effort from the GM. Such as OIHID, and most of the "Not In" types of limitations such as Not In the light of a red sun.

Assuming your question is serious, it takes Athenian one phase (she has instant change) and the others one turn. I personally enforce an IIF when it fits the story, which is what most GMs do with limits that are not self-enforcing. Having somone put a bullet or two into a hero in his civillian ID takes no more effort than coming up with a scenario where someone takes Doc IIF's Magic Nose Ring away.

Again and always, if you don't like the limit, you don't need to allow it. The alternative you're suggesting does not mesh well with the rest of the game system.

[JmOz]

Some write ups on the hulk, to represent the drop in INT

I hold that there must be a change in forms, I recently made two characters with OIHID as a lark, both gained major stat ups in Hero ID...

[OddHat]

The IIF is more problematic. If it rarely if ever comes into play while covering the majority of a character's points, then I would support the same thing as OIHID. Just like most of the "Not In" limitations.

I kind of agree with rarely comes into play being the problem. That's why I restrict the OIHID limit to characters that can't perform all of the tasks in an adventure in their Heroic IDs (by requiring Distinctive Features and other appropriate disads to be taken).

[Gary]

Assuming your question is serious, it takes Athenian one phase (she has instant change) and the others one turn. I personally enforce an IIF when it fits the story, which is what most GMs do with limits that are not self-enforcing. Having somone put a bullet or two into a hero in his civillian ID takes no more effort than coming up with a scenario where someone takes Doc IIF's Magic Nose Ring away.

Again and always, if you don't like the limit, you don't need to allow it. The alternative you're suggesting does not mesh well with the rest of the game system.


The ones who take a full turn have a serious limitation. Athenian doesn't. At worst, she can abort into her heroic form even if she gets ambushed. Not worth a -1/4 IMO.

I disagree that my alternative doesn't mesh well with the system. At worst, all you have to do is to makeup a new Disad category called Power Disads to handle "-1/8" limitations. This way, they won't interfere with the max points in physical limitations.

[OddHat]

Some write ups on the hulk, to represent the drop in INT

I hold that there must be a change in forms, I recently made two characters with OIHID as a lark, both gained major stat ups in Hero ID...

I kinda prefer OIHID for characters like the Smart Hulk to Multiform; OIHID feels more balanced in cases where the skill set is the same, and Multiform is free points city if you don't keep a very tight cap on it.

[Gary]

I kind of agree with rarely comes into play being the problem. That's why I restrict the OIHID limit to characters that can't perform all of the tasks in an adventure in their Heroic IDs (by requiring Distinctive Features and other appropriate disads to be taken).


I would agree with you except that I would have one more requirement. That it takes at least 2 phases to shift to hero ID.

[OddHat]

The ones who take a full turn have a serious limitation. Athenian doesn't. At worst, she can abort into her heroic form even if she gets ambushed. Not worth a -1/4 IMO.

Um, can you abort to an attack action in 5th? Instant Change is a specialized form of transformation attack; she still loses the phase, and has none of her Super Stats or defenses while she makes the switch. In Heroic ID she can't access her bank accounts, talk to her "normal" contacts, or interact as a normal person with non-supers, due in large part to the disads I require her to have in Heroic form. It's worth the -1/4, again IMO.

[Gary]

While we're on the subject of limitations, why is Gestures worth a -1/4 while Restrainable is worth -1/2?

Both of them are stopped by Grabs and Entangles. Why is Restrainable worth more?

[Sean Waters]

At worst, all you have to do is to makeup a new Disad category called Power Disads to handle "-1/8" limitations. This way, they won't interfere with the max points in physical limitations.

Yes, OK, but you have to promise to come round to all our houses to do the maths.

[Gary]

Um, can you abort to an attack action in 5th? Instant Change is a specialized form of transformation attack; she still loses the phase, and has none of her Super Stats or defenses while she makes the switch. In Heroic ID she can't access her bank accounts, talk to her "normal" contacts, or interact as a normal person with non-supers, due in large part to the disads I require her to have in Heroic form. It's worth the -1/4, again IMO.


On page 236 sidebar, it says Activating any Power which provides the character with more points of defense (such as Density Increase) or some other significant form of protection (such as desolidification)

Also, Use of any other maneuver, activation, use of any other power or performing any other action deemed by the GM to be primarily for the purpose of defending or protecting the character.

So as long as the heroic form is better defended than the regular form, the Abort is legal.

This makes being in normal form nothing more than an inconvenience most of the time.

[OddHat]

On page 236 sidebar, it says Activating any Power which provides the character with more points of defense (such as Density Increase) or some other significant form of protection (such as desolidification)

Also, Use of any other maneuver, activation, use of any other power or performing any other action deemed by the GM to be primarily for the purpose of defending or protecting the character.

So as long as the heroic form is better defended than the regular form, the Abort is legal.

This makes being in normal form nothing more than an inconvenience most of the time.

Ah. I don't permit that. Solves the problem. ;)

[Sean Waters]

On page 236 sidebar, it says Activating any Power which provides the character with more points of defense (such as Density Increase) or some other significant form of protection (such as desolidification)

Also, Use of any other maneuver, activation, use of any other power or performing any other action deemed by the GM to be primarily for the purpose of defending or protecting the character.

So as long as the heroic form is better defended than the regular form, the Abort is legal.

This makes being in normal form nothing more than an inconvenience most of the time.

...legal but not much use. It is one thing to abort to a power that has a zero phase start up, but a full phase power - you abort then get hit before it activates. Even one hit in normal ID could be devastating...

[Hyper-Man]

I kinda prefer OIHID for characters like the Smart Hulk to Multiform; OIHID feels more balanced in cases where the skill set is the same, and Multiform is free points city if you don't keep a very tight cap on it.
The biggest problem I have with Multiform (just 1 extra form) is the way it penalizes a character with regard to spending experience since the rules say that each form is a distinct character and experience must be spent seperately for each. This just does not fit ALL concepts. Multiform is good though if you just want to get a "real points" look at the super form for power level comparison, for what that's worth. I've seen arguments that the arbritary enforcement of every character starting on the same points when not all players participate equally in the game is just a bit skewed.

FYI, Regarding Miracle Man who was mentioned earlier in the thread. He was the British continuation of Captain Marvel/Shazam after DC comics sued over copyright infringement and put the original company that created Cap out of business (I can't remember the companies name).

[Gary]

...legal but not much use. It is one thing to abort to a power that has a zero phase start up, but a full phase power - you abort then get hit before it activates. Even one hit in normal ID could be devastating...


From the FAQ:

Q: What effect does Extra Time have on a character’s ability to Abort to a power?

A: As a default rule, a character can Abort to a power that takes a Full Phase, Delayed Phase, or Extra Segment as normal. He can Abort to a power that takes an Extra Phase, but if so he loses his next two Phases. He cannot Abort to powers that take more Extra Time. The GM can, of course, change this in the interest of common sense, dramatic sense, game balance, or the like.

[Gary]

Ah. I don't permit that. Solves the problem. ;)


I would probably still require 2 phases. If her normal form dex is high enough or if she has lightning reflexes, she might still go first before a good percentage of people she may confront in that form.

[Trebuchet]

As with any Limitation, OIHID needs monitoring by the GM. If it's never any limitation in the campaign, then it's not worth any point savings. If the player selects this Limitation, then it's the GMs responsibility to enforce it just as he does for an IIF or other equivalent value Limitation.

If a character's defenses are bought OIHID, then occasionally his Secret ID is going to be exposed to danger before he can activate his powers/hero form. He might actually get hurt. Awww. If the character never deactivates his powers except in his armored Fortress of Invulnerability, then the Limitation isn't worth anything. In our campaign virtually every character with OIHID has been attacked in their secret ID at least once. In some cases they had to remain depowered in order to protect their Secret Identity.

Why is that so difficult to grasp? Why are we having another pointless discussion attempting to provide lazy or incompetent GMs with a way out of doing their job? If you don't like OIHID in your campaign, don't allow it. But stop trying to rationalize your decision.

[Gary]

As with any Limitation, OIHID needs monitoring by the GM. If it's never any limitation in the campaign, then it's not worth any point savings. If the player selects this Limitation, then it's the GMs responsibility to enforce it just as he does for an IIF or other equivalent value Limitation.

If a character's defenses are bought OIHID, then occasionally his Secret ID is going to be exposed to danger before he can activate his powers/hero form. He might actually get hurt. Awww. If the character never deactivates his powers except in his armored Fortress of Invulnerability, then the Limitation isn't worth anything. In our campaign virtually every character with OIHID has been attacked in their secret ID at least once. In some cases they had to remain depowered in order to protect their Secret Identity.

Why is that so difficult to grasp? Why are we having another pointless discussion attempting to provide lazy or incompetent GMs with a way out of doing their job? If you don't like OIHID in your campaign, don't allow it. But stop trying to rationalize your decision.


I hardly think being attacked "once" in normal ID is worth a -1/4 overall limitation.

This is simply a suggested house rule. If you don't like the suggestion, then you don't have to adopt it. Nothing can be simpler.

[Sean Waters]

I hardly think being attacked "once" in normal ID is worth a -1/4 overall limitation.

This is simply a suggested house rule. If you don't like the suggestion, then you don't have to adopt it. Nothing can be simpler.

4d6RKA vs poor DCV, no resistant defences....really?

[Gary]

4d6RKA vs poor DCV, no resistant defences....really?


Yes really. If you have 20+ adventures and you get attacked once, it's a nuisance unless the attack kills you. And every GM I know would never "fiat death" a character. Most likely result is that the character gets knocked out and captured once. The other 19 times, the character has 50-75 additional points to play with.

[Sean Waters]

Yes really. If you have 20+ adventures and you get attacked once, it's a nuisance unless the attack kills you. And every GM I know would never "fiat death" a character. Most likely result is that the character gets knocked out and captured once. The other 19 times, the character has 50-75 additional points to play with.

You could run them over with an Italian car...no, OK, it would be wrong to kill them...but...

If I had to start even 1 in 20 fights stunned, bleeding internally and almost unconscious, I'd say that was a sufficient check and balance to the extra points. Far more than a 'nuisance', unless the character has easy access to regeneration or healing.

Think of it this way, too: it may not come up often but it is REALLY useful to the GM to have it there now and then. That's worth points too.

[OddHat]

Yes really. If you have 20+ adventures and you get attacked once, it's a nuisance unless the attack kills you. And every GM I know would never "fiat death" a character. Most likely result is that the character gets knocked out and captured once. The other 19 times, the character has 50-75 additional points to play with.

Gary, seriously, this no different from any other -1/4 limit. If you allow it, you should enforce it. The rule itself is not broken.

[Sean Waters]

...I think that OIHID will be more of a problem for some characters than others. If it is not any kind of problem, it shouldn't be allowed for that character, but for the chap with the secret ID he can't just call down the lightning whenever he wants to...make sure characters with OIHID have appropriate disdvantages and you'll be fine.

[Gary]

You could run them over with an Italian car...no, OK, it would be wrong to kill them...but...

If I had to start even 1 in 20 fights stunned, bleeding internally and almost unconscious, I'd say that was a sufficient check and balance to the extra points. Far more than a 'nuisance', unless the character has easy access to regeneration or healing.

Think of it this way, too: it may not come up often but it is REALLY useful to the GM to have it there now and then. That's worth points too.


But in exchange for the 1 in 20 fights where I'm out, I have +10 Dex +3 Spd compared to my teammates. Or I have +20 Str and +15 Con. Or any number of things that 50 pts buys. These things are going to help me more in my other 19 fights than I'll lose in the one single fight.

[Gary]

Gary, seriously, this no different from any other -1/4 limit. If you allow it, you should enforce it. The rule itself is not broken.


My experience is that not all -1/4 limitations are created equal. Just like not all -2 limitations are created equal.

[OddHat]

My experience is that not all -1/4 limitations are created equal. Just like not all -2 limitations are created equal.

True enough. :)

It's still campaign, character and GM dependant. Personally, I don't think the house rules and GM's calls needed to make OIHID count are that much of a stretch, and forcing people to take this particular limit as a new form of disad just feels kludgy. Much easier to just make it count, or ban it if you don't think it works.

[Sean Waters]

But in exchange for the 1 in 20 fights where I'm out, I have +10 Dex +3 Spd compared to my teammates. Or I have +20 Str and +15 Con. Or any number of things that 50 pts buys. These things are going to help me more in my other 19 fights than I'll lose in the one single fight.


They've all got IIFs the villain will be nicking after he guts me. Seriously though, so long as the extras are within campaign limits (and your examples probably are not...+3 SPD...) fine.

I think getting crippled every couple of months is a problem, you don't. There are other disadvantages too, depending on what powers you don't have access to. if you look at my earlier post you'll see that i mainly only allow OIHID for defensice powers, so you are probably not getting 50 points back anyway.

The point is that it is up to the GM to make sure balance is maintained. If there is a character whose powers don't work during the day who only fights crime at night, the GM is not doing her/his job. OIHID is the same. Either don't use it or make it worth 50 points.

Cannot be bounced is worth -1/4. I hardly ever bounce attacks, but some people do.

[Gary]

They've all got IIFs the villain will be nicking after he guts me. Seriously though, so long as the extras are within campaign limits (and your examples probably are not...+3 SPD...) fine.


A character with 50 extra points is probably going to be at campaign max for virtually every category as opposed to the character bought straight.




I think getting crippled every couple of months is a problem, you don't. There are other disadvantages too, depending on what powers you don't have access to. if you look at my earlier post you'll see that i mainly only allow OIHID for defensice powers, so you are probably not getting 50 points back anyway.

IOW, you also see a problem with someone who places OIHID with the majority of his character points.

If you're going to be in the habit of crippling characters every couple of months, the player will eventually buy kevlar clothing or combat luck. Then he'll probably be only knocked out every couple of months.




The point is that it is up to the GM to make sure balance is maintained. If there is a character whose powers don't work during the day who only fights crime at night, the GM is not doing her/his job. OIHID is the same. Either don't use it or make it worth 50 points.

Cannot be bounced is worth -1/4. I hardly ever bounce attacks, but some people do.


As I mentioned previously, not all -1/4 limitations are created equal.

[Trebuchet]

These things are going to help me more in my other 19 fights than I'll lose in the one single fight.That's true of any -¼ Limitation, be it IIF or Activation 14- or "Not During Blue Moons." The responsibility for enforcement still lays with the GM. Ideally a good player will help without prompting ("Captain Colossus is still in his Secret ID because he was in the restaurant on a date with Polly Sweetbread, his DNPC girlfriend. So when The Mad Bomber's attack goes off he has only 4 ED. He's gonna get hurt because he's covering her body with his own, and he has to protect his Secret ID."), but if that doesn't happen then the GM must do it.

OIHID is not more abusive than any other equally valued Limitation. IMO it is far less abusive than most IIFs, which are often protected by their own intrinsic defenses and basically can't be taken unless the character is unconscious and the opponent has a full Turn to remove the IIF. In one Turn in HERO most characters could build a cathedral. What are the odds of a character who is Stunned or KO'd being out for an entire Turn in order to lose that focus? And how often does that happen in order to make the Limitation worth -¼? One out of 20 fights? One out of 50?

Why does Iron Man get the price break but Captain Marvel doesn't rate it?

[OddHat]

IOW, you also see a problem with someone who places OIHID with the majority of his character points.

If you're going to be in the habit of crippling characters every couple of months, the player will eventually buy kevlar clothing or combat luck. Then he'll probably be only knocked out every couple of months.

As I mentioned previously, not all -1/4 limitations are created equal.

Again, this is very campagin dependant. In my games where character have OIHID, they find themselves dealing with it very regularly, and not just by getting shot while drinking tea.

[Hyper-Man]

snip...

Why does Iron Man get the price break but Captain Marvel doesn't rate it? An even better comparison would be to take a look at 3 characters from the DC Universe: Superman, Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman. It can be argued that all 3 have essentially the same flying brick powerset. Also all 3 could be built as starting characters with essentially the same points to arive at the obvious 123 pecking order of power that exists in that comics universe.



Superman gets to apply 3 different does not work... (-1/4) limitations to nearly all of his powers (red solar radiation, kryptonite and magic).
Captian Marvel gets the OIHID limitation for All of his powers. Virtually same combat power as Superman except for senses and other vision related effects.
And Wonder Woman gets no bonus what so ever, and that is OK. She is not normally the toughest brick around but she almost never loses ANY of her abilities unless the Gods intervene. More often however, there are times when she is the toughest Brick in the JLA exactly because of this.
HM

[WhammeWhamme]

Yes really. If you have 20+ adventures and you get attacked once, it's a nuisance unless the attack kills you. And every GM I know would never "fiat death" a character. Most likely result is that the character gets knocked out and captured once. The other 19 times, the character has 50-75 additional points to play with.

Uhm... it should be a _problem_ one in 20. Using the Activation scale... it should _potentially_ be a problem every single adventure.

Seriously. Activation, even when it activates, always has the risk of failure. OIHID, even when you transform without getting pasted, should always have a risk. (Seriously. They should almost _always_ have to transform _during_ the scenario)

The 1/20 should be how often you get KO'd.

[Trebuchet]

A better comparison would be to take a look at 3 characters from the DC Universe: Superman, Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman. It can be argued that all 3 basically have the same powerset. All could be built as starting characters with essentially the same points to arive at the obvious pecking order of power that exists in the comics.


Superman gets to apply 3 different does not work... (-1/4) limitations to nearly all of his powers (red solar radiation, kryptonite and magic).
Captian Marvel gets the OIHID limitation for All of his powers. Virtually same combat power as Superman except for vision related effects.
And Wonder Woman gets no bonus what so ever, and that is OK. She is not normally the toughest brick around but she almost never loses her abilities unless the Gods intervene. More often however, there are times when she is the toughest Brick in the JLA exactly because of this.
HMNicely argued, HM. However, your examples certainly don't prove OIHID is "wrong" in any way. Few people would dispute that Superman is more powerful than Captain Marvel. CM's OIHID doesn't seem to have prevented him from being widely recognized as #2. I know that's not the case you're actually making; but it is the logical correllary.

I would question whether Supes actually has three separate -¼ lims. The only one I could see as applicable in a game setting would be the "Not vs. Magic." Since he doesn't live and work on a planet with a red sun, that's a -0.(Otherwise all my characters could take "Requires oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere to utilize powers: -¼". As long as they are in an environment that doesn't outright kill them, such as a vacuum or poison gas, they'd be good to go.) :nonp:

[WhammeWhamme]

Nicely argued, HM. However, your examples certainly don't prove OIHID is "wrong" in any way. Few people would dispute that Superman is more powerful than Captain Marvel. CM's OIHID doesn't seem to have prevented him from being widely recognized as #2. I know that's not the case you're actually making; but it is the logical correllary.

I would question whether Supes actually has three separate -¼ lims. The only one I could see as applicable in a game setting would be the "Not vs. Magic." Since he doesn't live and work on a planet with a red sun, that's a -0.(Otherwise all my characters could take "Requires oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere to utilize powers: -¼". As long as they are in an environment that doesn't outright kill them, such as a vacuum or poison gas, they'd be good to go.) :nonp:

Actually "Affected by Red Sun or Kryptonite" is probably a -1/4, considering the weird and wacky wonders of Kryptonite...

[C++]

There are other ways a GM can make this one worth it's salt, too. Captain Marvel got hosed earlier this year when Brainwave used Mind Control to make him say "Shazam" and then Black Adam slapped Billy into unconciousness.

In the olden days, it wasn't too uncommon for people with the Shazam power to get un-Marvelled by another person calling down the lightning (or Instant Changed for that matter).

Let's face it, a GM can basically one-shot your character by changing him or her out of Hero ID. It's almost like having a Fatal Vulnerabilty.

And generally speaking, your OIHID (or HIDO as I prefer) character is also going to have disadvantages that ensure that being in Hero ID isn't always a good thing (Secret ID, Distinctive Features, Hunted, Vulnerabilities, Susceptabilities, ect).

[Hyper-Man]

Actually "Affected by Red Sun or Kryptonite" is probably a -1/4, considering the weird and wacky wonders of Kryptonite...
Well, in practice it would be only 2 seperate (-1/4) since the magic part usually only applies to his defenses and not much else so we really agree more than disagree on this point. :)

[Gary]

That's true of any -¼ Limitation, be it IIF or Activation 14- or "Not During Blue Moons." The responsibility for enforcement still lays with the GM. Ideally a good player will help without prompting ("Captain Colossus is still in his Secret ID because he was in the restaurant on a date with Polly Sweetbread, his DNPC girlfriend. So when The Mad Bomber's attack goes off he has only 4 ED. He's gonna get hurt because he's covering her body with his own, and he has to protect his Secret ID."), but if that doesn't happen then the GM must do it.


As pointed out, this scenario happens so seldom that I question it's value as a limitation. Just how often does one get attacked in secret ID when presumably the villains don't know that ID? You've indicated that some characters who have OIHID in your campaign had it crop up exactly once in the entire campaign.

Also, a player is reasonably assured that the Mad Bomber's attack won't kill him outright even with his 4 ED. It's sorta the compact between player and GM that no fiat deaths occur. So the risk is less than it appears at first glance.




OIHID is not more abusive than any other equally valued Limitation. IMO it is far less abusive than most IIFs, which are often protected by their own intrinsic defenses and basically can't be taken unless the character is unconscious and the opponent has a full Turn to remove the IIF. In one Turn in HERO most characters could build a cathedral. What are the odds of a character who is Stunned or KO'd being out for an entire Turn in order to lose that focus? And how often does that happen in order to make the Limitation worth -¼? One out of 20 fights? One out of 50?

Why does Iron Man get the price break but Captain Marvel doesn't rate it?


It depends. If the IIF only caused problems once in 20 sessions, or only once ever, I would have the same problem with it that I do with OIHID.

Most -1/4's aren't that big of a problem because they have obvious ways of being exploited, and they don't usually cover the majority of points of the character. The ones that turn 350 pt characters into 400 pt characters while seldom popping up are the ones I have a problem with.

[Gary]

Again, this is very campagin dependant. In my games where character have OIHID, they find themselves dealing with it very regularly, and not just by getting shot while drinking tea.


Just out of curiosity, how often has Athenian been KO'd in your campaign before being able to change into hero ID?

[Gary]

Uhm... it should be a _problem_ one in 20. Using the Activation scale... it should _potentially_ be a problem every single adventure.

Seriously. Activation, even when it activates, always has the risk of failure. OIHID, even when you transform without getting pasted, should always have a risk. (Seriously. They should almost _always_ have to transform _during_ the scenario)

The 1/20 should be how often you get KO'd.


In your campaigns, do you find that most characters transform near combat, or do lots of them already start in hero ID at the start of combat?

Also with activation rolls, it's per shot. So if you take 10 shots during an average scenario, you have a roughly 50% chance of it activating. So the activation roll affects you half the time, not 5% like OIHID.

[WhammeWhamme]

In your campaigns, do you find that most characters transform near combat, or do lots of them already start in hero ID at the start of combat?

Also with activation rolls, it's per shot. So if you take 10 shots during an average scenario, you have a roughly 50% chance of it activating. So the activation roll affects you half the time, not 5% like OIHID.

I've only ever had one OIHID player... (This is probably a coincidence)
He transforms _in_ combat, sometimes. (Werewolf, part of a power pool)
Before? No.

Edit: Not that changing before combat fits OIHID. If someone was to usually start transformed... well... no go. OIHID implies a not-HID. That means that you should usually not be in HID. If you want OIHID with no 'pants down', no 'not-HID'.... then, similiar to the battlesuit guy with the 'invincible OIF'... you get downgraded by -1/4.

10 shots is quite a lot, btw.

-Activation on ALL your powers is likely to come up more frequently than OIHID considered that way. But only piecemeal. You won't be stuck at crap CV, DEF _and_ with no attack power. More to the point, with Activation, there's no sense of 'play round it'. If it happens, it happens. So it needn't affect play style that much.

OIHID also has a little bit of 'Noisy' wrapped up into it... no stealthy 'I use my powers through my glasses' for you!

It should come up every scenario, one way or another. Failing to activate is just part of that, of course... maybe sometimes it would be nifty to do stuff secret ID, maybe you just need to blow a phase transforming... or (see below)


Also, OIHID usually implies 'I can steal your powers!' plots are a little easier. After all, if you can 'turn it off'...

[Trebuchet]

As pointed out, this scenario happens so seldom that I question it's value as a limitation. Just how often does one get attacked in secret ID when presumably the villains don't know that ID? You've indicated that some characters who have OIHID in your campaign had it crop up exactly once in the entire campaign.

[snip]

Most -1/4's aren't that big of a problem because they have obvious ways of being exploited, and they don't usually cover the majority of points of the character. The ones that turn 350 pt characters into 400 pt characters while seldom popping up are the ones I have a problem with.I distinctly said "at least once." But that's irrelevant to this discussion anyway. IOHID should, and does, effect the game in ways beyond mere tactical considerations. Twelve Charges get the character a -¼ Limitation too. But I've seen dozens, if not hundreds, of combats where even a character with only 12 Charges didn't run out of charges. Most Champions combats in my experience last less than 2 Turns; many last less than one.

Let's take a more concrete example. My character Zl'f saves a grand total of 24 CP by using OIHID on some of her Powers. The only defense amongst those is her Missile Deflection/Reflection, a Power she has used exactly twice in her entire 12 year career as a PC. Now Zl'f may or may not be typical, but I certainly don't think she's unique. I could have easily bought off the OIHID with her current 52 XP, but I didn't because I don't want her super all the time. I want her "only human" some of the time. It's important to roleplaying her, at least to me.

On the other hand, Zl'f saves a whopping 160 CP by using a Multipower, which contains most of her specialized attacks. Without her savings from the MP she'd cost 562 CP instead of 402. So please explain again how OIHID is so abusive compared to other Limitations and Frameworks?

It appears to me that your problem with OIHID is that you don't feel like enforcing it properly. Fine. But don't blame the game mechanics for your own proclivities (I hesitate to use "shortcomings") as a GM and/or player. Other GMs here don't seem to share your misgivings about OIHID, Gary. Given how little you appear to like "uncontrollable" or open-ended situations, I'm frankly sorta surprised you play RPGs at all. :angst:

[OddHat]

Just out of curiosity, how often has Athenian been KO'd in your campaign before being able to change into hero ID?

At this point we both know that there's no answer that will stop your complaining about the subject. ;)

Athenian is a fairly new character, built as part of my New Circle group and test played by my wife. So far, she has been knocked out and kidnapped while in civilian ID, forced to change out of her Heroic form once, and shot once. Much more importantly from a game POV, she, like every character in my campaigns that has had OIHID, has spent part of every play session faced with tasks that could not be accomplished unless she performed them in her human form.

None of this requires any more effort incorporating her limits into the scenario than those of any other character.

Again, if the limit pisses you off so much, you can always ban it. ;)

[OddHat]

As pointed out, this scenario happens so seldom that I question it's value as a limitation. Just how often does one get attacked in secret ID when presumably the villains don't know that ID? You've indicated that some characters who have OIHID in your campaign had it crop up exactly once in the entire campaign.

Gary, how often do you take Inaccessible Foci away from your players? That is after all the limit that OIHID is meant to resemble and sometimes replace.

Personally, I've had no problem making OIHID at least as much of a problem for characters as a suit of Power Armor or a Power Ring.

[Hyper-Man]

snip...
Most -1/4's aren't that big of a problem because they have obvious ways of being exploited, and they don't usually cover the majority of points of the character. The ones that turn 350 pt characters into 400 pt characters while seldom popping up are the ones I have a problem with. I guess my namesake character falls into this trap with roughly 60-70 point savings due to OIHID.

In defense of that build I would like to point out that 37 points were spent on non-combat related skills and talents as well as an additional 8 points of redundant non-combat movement. I purposely did not make a combat monster, instead I had a powerset in mind that I just could not build as a 350 point character any other way without being only useful for combat and not much else. This is usually the case with most Flying Bricks. My character is not a typical brick since his defenses are comparably low (*except when prepared with damage reduction) and he has no Martial Arts or combat skill levels. Creative use of his powers and basic maneuvers are his ONLY combat options.

The character could maybe hold his own in a one on one contest vs. someone like Durak but he would have a hard time finishing him without exhausting himself very quickly.

[Sean Waters]

Gary,

On the one hand, if you are GMing then it is up to you to make sure that ANY limitation has comensurate drawbacks to the point savings.

On the other hand, if you are playing a character with a Hero ID, just keep your head down and hope that the GM DOESN'T do what I suggested above.

On the gripping hand (noprize for knowing what that references...) I am beginning to think you are playing in a game and someone else has a character with OIHID, HIDO, HIDIHO or whatever, and the GM isn't properly enforcing it, so it is ticking you off. Have a word with the GM, get them squished, then visit them in hospital and take grapes...which you eat as they are in a full body cast. Go on, you'll feel batter.

[Hyper-Man]

Gary,

On the one hand, if you are GMing then it is up to you to make sure that ANY limitation has comensurate drawbacks to the point savings.

On the other hand, if you are playing a character with a Hero ID, just keep your head down and hope that the GM DOESN'T do what I suggested above.

On the gripping hand (noprize for knowing what that references...) I am beginning to think you are playing in a game and someone else has a character with OIHID, HIDO, HIDIHO or whatever, and the GM isn't properly enforcing it, so it is ticking you off. Have a word with the GM, get them squished, then visit them in hospital and take grapes...which you eat as they are in a full body cast. Go on, you'll feel batter.
CRAZY EDDY!

[Hugh Neilson]

It depends. If the IIF only caused problems once in 20 sessions, or only once ever, I would have the same problem with it that I do with OIHID.

Most -1/4's aren't that big of a problem because they have obvious ways of being exploited, and they don't usually cover the majority of points of the character. The ones that turn 350 pt characters into 400 pt characters while seldom popping up are the ones I have a problem with.

Put "Activates 15-" on 300 points of abilities, and our character has 110 left to play with. That's the same -1/4 limitation as IIF or OIHID.

One time in 20 when the character tries to use each power, it will fail. 19 times in 20, it will work. However, the very next phase, he can try to use the power again. If his main defense Acts 15-, he'll have a problem if it fails to activate. But the 60 pooints saved by having 300 points Act 15- can pay for a very nice defensive suite with no activation roll. Or he can gamble and have a 75 point defensive suite, significantly enhancing durability if the activation rolls work in his favour (and, as you say, the GM probably won't just kill him if is defenses fail to activate - he'll be out of the rest of the battle, at worst). BOTTOM LINE: Act 15- will affect the character 1 out of 20 times he tries to use each power.

Now let's look at our OIF or OIHID (or my favorite "not in an intense magnetic field") character. If, one scenario in 20, his powers are completely unavailable, is that seriously a lesser drawback than 1 in 20 attempted uses of the power failing? If I don't have my IIF, or am not in hero ID, I have absolutely no chance at accessing those powers. And characters with IIF or OIHID saving lots of points commonly have most of their defensive powers tied up in those limitations. The bigger problem, IMO, is that these characters operate in binary mode. Either they have all their powers, or they are doomed in a typical scenario. As such, it's much easier to perceive the GM as "picking on" the characters by exploiting these limitations (much like a character with 3d6 Stun and BOD susceptibility from sunlight perceives himself being picked on when Dr. Vampire is forced out into the light). The player choosing OIHID for a major power suite should be told up front that this means there WILL be times when those powers are unavailable, possibly for an entire session or story arc. If the player isn't prepared to accept that, the limitation should be removed.

BTW, Gary, I still don't get your physical limitation issue. If your goal is to cap the points benefit of OIHID, the formula for Physical Limitation imposes an effective cap. You need to assess how limiting it is (frequency and level of impairment), which to some extent will be influenced by the number of points affected. Saying "You get the same points as OIHID to the max points from one disadvantage category" seems much less clear that you view this as a disadvantage and not a limitation. It seems to create a third, hybrid category.

[OddHat]

BTW, Gary, I still don't get your physical limitation issue. If your goal is to cap the points benefit of OIHID, the formula for Physical Limitation imposes an effective cap. You need to assess how limiting it is (frequency and level of impairment), which to some extent will be influenced by the number of points affected. Saying "You get the same points as OIHID to the max points from one disadvantage category" seems much less clear that you view this as a disadvantage and not a limitation. It seems to create a third, hybrid category.

Agreed. It's just messy. If I did choose to cap OIHID by making it a Physical Limit, I can't see why it would make sense to treat it as being worth more points than any other Phys Limit that was Infrequently Fully Impairing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Agreed. It's just messy. If I did choose to cap OIHID by making it a Physical Limit, I can't see why it would make sense to treat it as being worth more points than any other Phys Limit that was Infrequently Fully Impairing.

It may even be less than fully impairing if the character isn't based on OIHID, although most are.

This then begs the question why not convert IIF as well. "Loses most powers without magic undergarments- Infrequent, Fully Impairing" rather than IIF Magic Thingamajig on a host of powers. Oh, and it's an unbreakable Magic Undergarment. Hey, how many villains strip the heroes of theoir underwear? :nonp: This is a G Rated comic!

[OddHat]

It may even be less than fully impairing if the character isn't based on OIHID, although most are.

This then begs the question why not convert IIF as well. "Loses most powers without magic undergarments- Infrequent, Fully Impairing" rather than IIF Magic Thingamajig on a host of powers. Oh, and it's an unbreakable Magic Undergarment. Hey, how many villains strip the heroes of theoir underwear? :nonp: This is a G Rated comic!

In a way, I could see building a version of HERO where all limitations were taken as Phys Lims and Psych Lims; it would be more transparent than the current system when you were figuring out how many points a character was "really" built on. It would also mean re-pricing a large number of powers, and redoing almost all published characters. Pain in the arse, especially with the addition of underwear stealing bad guys. ;)

[Sean Waters]

The trouble with buying limitations as disadvantages is that it becomes a bit awkward when you don't want to apply the limitations to a few of the points the character is built on. Take Superman. I've said that he doesn't have HIDIHO, IMO at all, but I've thought again. Those glasses he wears as CK probably IMPAIR his uber-vision. What if all you wanted to buy the limitation on was a few points of a 1000+ point character? There would be no realistic way of doing it. Fine if you are Billy Batson, not fine if you are Clark Kent.

[Sean Waters]

Pain in the arse, especially with the addition of underwear stealing bad guys. ;)

Let me introduce you to the major villain Professor Pervert.... :nonp:

[Sean Waters]

Maybe Billy Batson is on the school bus when it gets trapped and all his friends will see him change when he says SHAZAM.

...and the lightning will ignite the leaking fuel and kill them all...

[OddHat]

The trouble with buying limitations as disadvantages is that it becomes a bit awkward when you don't want to apply the limitations to a few of the points the character is built on. Take Superman. I've said that he doesn't have HIDIHO, IMO at all, but I've thought again. Those glasses he wears as CK probably IMPAIR his uber-vision. What if all you wanted to buy the limitation on was a few points of a 1000+ point character? There would be no realistic way of doing it. Fine if you are Billy Batson, not fine if you are Clark Kent.

You'd declare any limitation that was less than Infrequently, Slightly limiting to be worth 0 points, as is already the case with minor SFX limits and advantages. You could also add in some 1 point "quirk" limits.

[Sean Waters]

You'd declare any limitation that was less than Infrequently, Slightly limiting to be worth 0 points, as is already the case with minor SFX limits and advantages. You could also add in some 1 point "quirk" limits.

Sounds messier than the current system, and far more open to misinterpretation and abuse because it is so much more a 'judgement call' as to what amounts to a disadvantagegiven the overall level of power and what doesn't and when that would apply, especially if it is not tied to a specific power as limitations are.

I don't think it would solve the current problems and I don't think it would be good for the game. Whilst Hero stresses balance, it is balance overall - what you are advocating is building every character on the same number of active points, butI really can't get how that would help: this is not an exact science and the relative cost/benefit of the various powers will never exactly balance anyway, and will vary from campaign to campaign. Balance is a touch and feel quality for each group, and is often overrated as a game tool. JLA contains Superman and Batman. No way are they points equivalent, but you can (just about) run a game with them both in (if you don't mind Batman having so many more points than Supes....)

Making every limitation a disadvantage would make it far harder to run the game and would not encourage people to define powers exactly...adding that additional 'does no KB' will make no difference to the points you get from the disadvantage, so it isn't worth the trouble of crafting it that closely.

In any even they are not going to do it. It would make most of the back catalogue obsolete.

[OddHat]

I don't think it would solve the current problems and I don't think it would be good for the game. Whilst Hero stresses balance, it is balance overall - what you are advocating is building every character on the same number of active points, butI really can't get how that would help: this is not an exact science and the relative cost/benefit of the various powers will never exactly balance anyway, and will vary from campaign to campaign.

I'm not sure "In a way, I could see" = advocating, especially as I finish by saying that it would be a pain in the arse. ;)

[Gary]

I distinctly said "at least once." But that's irrelevant to this discussion anyway. IOHID should, and does, effect the game in ways beyond mere tactical considerations. Twelve Charges get the character a -¼ Limitation too. But I've seen dozens, if not hundreds, of combats where even a character with only 12 Charges didn't run out of charges. Most Champions combats in my experience last less than 2 Turns; many last less than one.

"At least once" means that some had it happen only once. And having it happen only once in your entire gaming career isn't worth an overall -1/4 limitation.

Do all your adventuring scenarios have only one combat? In many scenarios, there are a series of combats. You may use up 5 charges in one combat, 3 in the next, and 4 in the third. Often the GM sets up situations where you can't reload and recharge. The 12 charges are a lot more of a limitation than something that crops up once in an entire adventuring career.




Let's take a more concrete example. My character Zl'f saves a grand total of 24 CP by using OIHID on some of her Powers. The only defense amongst those is her Missile Deflection/Reflection, a Power she has used exactly twice in her entire 12 year career as a PC. Now Zl'f may or may not be typical, but I certainly don't think she's unique. I could have easily bought off the OIHID with her current 52 XP, but I didn't because I don't want her super all the time. I want her "only human" some of the time. It's important to roleplaying her, at least to me.

On the other hand, Zl'f saves a whopping 160 CP by using a Multipower, which contains most of her specialized attacks. Without her savings from the MP she'd cost 562 CP instead of 402. So please explain again how OIHID is so abusive compared to other Limitations and Frameworks?

Zl'f is only saving 24 pts. That's a far cry from saving 50-70 pts. However, it seems fairly easy for her to shift to heroic form even if she were caught with her pants down. After all from what I know of the character, she can simply abort to heroic form while dodging for a positively obscene DCV.





It appears to me that your problem with OIHID is that you don't feel like enforcing it properly. Fine. But don't blame the game mechanics for your own proclivities (I hesitate to use "shortcomings") as a GM and/or player. Other GMs here don't seem to share your misgivings about OIHID, Gary. Given how little you appear to like "uncontrollable" or open-ended situations, I'm frankly sorta surprised you play RPGs at all. :angst:


From what you've described, it just reinforces my point. There are characters in your campaign who have it crop up exactly once in their gaming careers.

And please lay off the insults and personal digs.

[OddHat]

Let me introduce you to the major villain Professor Pervert.... :nonp:

Now there's a Character Creation thread for the Champions Board. ;)

Or would that be Other Genres: Hentai Hero?

[Gary]

Gary, how often do you take Inaccessible Foci away from your players? That is after all the limit that OIHID is meant to resemble and sometimes replace.

Personally, I've had no problem making OIHID at least as much of a problem for characters as a suit of Power Armor or a Power Ring.


More often than OIHID. Foci can be destroyed, damaged, or taken away. Once a person is in heroic ID, it takes a skilled mind controller or someone with a hostage to force the player back into normal ID. And that's assuming the opponent knows about the normal ID.

[Gary]

Gary,

On the one hand, if you are GMing then it is up to you to make sure that ANY limitation has comensurate drawbacks to the point savings.

On the other hand, if you are playing a character with a Hero ID, just keep your head down and hope that the GM DOESN'T do what I suggested above.

On the gripping hand (noprize for knowing what that references...) I am beginning to think you are playing in a game and someone else has a character with OIHID, HIDO, HIDIHO or whatever, and the GM isn't properly enforcing it, so it is ticking you off. Have a word with the GM, get them squished, then visit them in hospital and take grapes...which you eat as they are in a full body cast. Go on, you'll feel batter.


Actually in my most recent game, nobody has OIHID. The GM frowns on stuff like that. However in the past, this limitation almost never cropped up enough to matter, and usually wasn't worth the points.

The trouble with that limitation is that usually it takes a "I'm the GM and I'm going to screw with your character" scenario to make it come up. And there are only a limited number of times that the GM can realistically run this type of scenario, and even if you didn't have OIHID, the GM could still run that type of scenario against you anyway.

[Gary]

You read much Spider-man? Peter has just as much trouble in his life as Spider-man does. Perhaps you don't actually role-play non-hero time but many of us do, and it's at those times that it comes into play. I believe the rule in 5E is that a -1/4 limitation should effect the character about one in four adventures. That means it's the GM's responsibility to cause some grief for the character during those times.

It's all special effects based though. Maybe Tony Stark has debris fall on him before he can put on his armor when the museum is attacked. Maybe Colossus is trapped in a chemical factory that eats metal if he changes to that form. Maybe Billy Batson is on the school bus when it gets trapped and all his friends will see him change when he says SHAZAM. These are all the things the GM needs to decide when planning the adventure.


Spiderman has his powers all the time. And comics are very different from a RPG.

What you've described would be a problem for someone with a Secret ID anyway, whether or not they had OIHID. They can't just reveal themselves and use their powers anyway. OIHID has nothing to do with it.

[OddHat]

More often than OIHID. Foci can be destroyed, damaged, or taken away. Once a person is in heroic ID, it takes a skilled mind controller or someone with a hostage to force the player back into normal ID. And that's assuming the opponent knows about the normal ID.

Eh. This is campaign and SFX dependant as well. As the GM, you still have a license to force the change back any time you'd like, or to cause problems for the character in his civilian ID, including blocking the change. And in anticipation of the question (;)), yes, I've done all three, and would expect to see all three done if I played such a character. Also, any HID can be destroyed, damaged or taken away, if that's what the GM wants to do.

If it's a problem (and I don't see why it would be with good players), you can always allow a Dispell vs. All Magic to force the change back as a 0 point limit built into a magical OIHID, or rule that the character changes back when unconcious, or rule that the character changes back when stunned.

As an example of the last, my wife had a character way back in 3rd Ed. who changed into Hero Id by mixing Instant Change, Growth, and Density Increase. When unconcius it would change back from being a Giant Robot to a twelve year old boy. Worked fine, and I'd have no trouble approving that character today built with OIHID.

The point being, none of this is beyond the GMs ability to balance with very little effort.

[Hugh Neilson]

Spiderman has his powers all the time. And comics are very different from a RPG.

While I agree that there are media differences (books and movies/TV have the same problem translating), when the goal of the RPG is to simulate the comics, it seems appropriate to endeavour to minimize those differences.


What you've described would be a problem for someone with a Secret ID anyway, whether or not they had OIHID. They can't just reveal themselves and use their powers anyway. OIHID has nothing to do with it.

Peter/Spidey can:

(a) Sense the danger of the sniper taking aim on him.

(b) Turn down an alley to change clothes

(c) "Trip" and fall to the ground when his danger sense spikes, as the sniper shoots before he gets there.

If he had OIHID, he'd be shot before he knew what hit him. That doesn't have to mean "transform head to fine red mist". It could mean "captured by tranqs" or "infected with strange toxin and blackmailed for his life".

Note that it doesn't matter whether he could have aborted to change into his hero ID - he had no reason to do so.

Another example: Peter's with a reporter from the Bugle. They want to get into an office, but it's locked. The occupant's native language is sanskrit - Petercan't read it, but the reporter can. Coming back as Spidey won't work for this reason. Ah, but Peter twists the knob hard with his Spider-strength. "Hey, it was just stuck!" If his STR was OIHID, he lacks that opportunity.

If we were talking about giving characters the ability to avoid these annoyances for free, you'd tell us how unfair that is - they should pay points for the advantage. However, because here it's a rebate of points for sacrificing the advantage, you want to cap the rebate.

[Gary]

Put "Activates 15-" on 300 points of abilities, and our character has 110 left to play with. That's the same -1/4 limitation as IIF or OIHID.

In actual practice, nobody puts activation roll on that many points of abilities.




One time in 20 when the character tries to use each power, it will fail. 19 times in 20, it will work. However, the very next phase, he can try to use the power again. If his main defense Acts 15-, he'll have a problem if it fails to activate. But the 60 pooints saved by having 300 points Act 15- can pay for a very nice defensive suite with no activation roll. Or he can gamble and have a 75 point defensive suite, significantly enhancing durability if the activation rolls work in his favour (and, as you say, the GM probably won't just kill him if is defenses fail to activate - he'll be out of the rest of the battle, at worst). BOTTOM LINE: Act 15- will affect the character 1 out of 20 times he tries to use each power.


Putting Activation Rolls on your defenses or movements is just stupid. A character gets hit hundreds of times in his adventuring career. If he has no defenses 5% of the time, he'll die just from normal adventuring. Not to mention how much it would bog the game down from the player making 5 rolls per phase.





Now let's look at our OIF or OIHID (or my favorite "not in an intense magnetic field") character. If, one scenario in 20, his powers are completely unavailable, is that seriously a lesser drawback than 1 in 20 attempted uses of the power failing? If I don't have my IIF, or am not in hero ID, I have absolutely no chance at accessing those powers. And characters with IIF or OIHID saving lots of points commonly have most of their defensive powers tied up in those limitations. The bigger problem, IMO, is that these characters operate in binary mode. Either they have all their powers, or they are doomed in a typical scenario. As such, it's much easier to perceive the GM as "picking on" the characters by exploiting these limitations (much like a character with 3d6 Stun and BOD susceptibility from sunlight perceives himself being picked on when Dr. Vampire is forced out into the light). The player choosing OIHID for a major power suite should be told up front that this means there WILL be times when those powers are unavailable, possibly for an entire session or story arc. If the player isn't prepared to accept that, the limitation should be removed.


It depends. How easy is it for the player to get into heroic ID? Can the player abort to it? Does the player have reasonable defenses or DCV in normal ID? As the GM are you willing to ask the player to sit out an entire story arc? Can the player play a substitute character during the 1 in 20 sessions where he's out?





BTW, Gary, I still don't get your physical limitation issue. If your goal is to cap the points benefit of OIHID, the formula for Physical Limitation imposes an effective cap. You need to assess how limiting it is (frequency and level of impairment), which to some extent will be influenced by the number of points affected. Saying "You get the same points as OIHID to the max points from one disadvantage category" seems much less clear that you view this as a disadvantage and not a limitation. It seems to create a third, hybrid category.

It is sorta a hybrid category. But what it does is to allow people to take OIHID without unbalancing the character compared to people who buy their powers straight. And since this is a Disad that doesn't increase the power level of the character, it ensures that only people who want it for conception purposes would take it.

[Gary]

The trouble with buying limitations as disadvantages is that it becomes a bit awkward when you don't want to apply the limitations to a few of the points the character is built on. Take Superman. I've said that he doesn't have HIDIHO, IMO at all, but I've thought again. Those glasses he wears as CK probably IMPAIR his uber-vision. What if all you wanted to buy the limitation on was a few points of a 1000+ point character? There would be no realistic way of doing it. Fine if you are Billy Batson, not fine if you are Clark Kent.


That's why I would scale how many points you get back to how many points of powers the limitation affects.

[WhammeWhamme]

Putting Activation Rolls on your defenses or movements is just stupid. A character gets hit hundreds of times in his adventuring career. If he has no defenses 5% of the time, he'll die just from normal adventuring. Not to mention how much it would bog the game down from the player making 5 rolls per phase.


How about on everything apart from his defenses? Or even on part of his defenses? (Which WAS what was suggested 'use the 60 pts saved to buy extra defenses...')

(Or, do what I did for my latest 250 Mentalist - 'Activation 14-, Only to Activate' (-1/4) on the Constant Powers)



It is sorta a hybrid category. But what it does is to allow people to take OIHID without unbalancing the character compared to people who buy their powers straight. And since this is a Disad that doesn't increase the power level of the character, it ensures that only people who want it for conception purposes would take it.

It also makes their characters _boring_. Disadavantages are the spice. Anything that reduces the Disadvantages (/incentivizes it) is boring. Yes, the limitations system may slightly favour Limited Powers... but that's because they're more interesting.

"I use my EB" (yawn)
"Right... I hit the button on my headset to unleash my Eyebeams... what? It's jammed? @#$%!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Hugh Neilson]

That's why I would scale how many points you get back to how many points of powers the limitation affects.

That's what the present limitation does - you get 1 point for every 5 points the power effects. I don't see the need to create a hybrid of two existing mechanics for this.

[WhammeWhamme]

In a way, I could see building a version of HERO where all limitations were taken as Phys Lims and Psych Lims; it would be more transparent than the current system when you were figuring out how many points a character was "really" built on. It would also mean re-pricing a large number of powers, and redoing almost all published characters. Pain in the arse, especially with the addition of underwear stealing bad guys. ;)

Some call me... Fuzion.

No, really. That's how they did it.

[Gary]

Eh. This is campaign and SFX dependant as well. As the GM, you still have a license to force the change back any time you'd like, or to cause problems for the character in his civilian ID, including blocking the change. And in anticipation of the question (;)), yes, I've done all three, and would expect to see all three done if I played such a character. Also, any HID can be destroyed, damaged or taken away, if that's what the GM wants to do.

If it's a problem (and I don't see why it would be with good players), you can always allow a Dispell vs. All Magic to force the change back as a 0 point limit built into a magical OIHID, or rule that the character changes back when unconcious, or rule that the character changes back when stunned.

As an example of the last, my wife had a character way back in 3rd Ed. who changed into Hero Id by mixing Instant Change, Growth, and Density Increase. When unconcius it would change back from being a Giant Robot to a twelve year old boy. Worked fine, and I'd have no trouble approving that character today built with OIHID.

The point being, none of this is beyond the GMs ability to balance with very little effort.


If you did the non-persistent OIHID, the character couldn't maintain a secret ID. :sneaky:

If the GM is willing to work at it, he can make anything balanced. At a certain point though, I notice "limitation burnout", where you have 6 characters all with 150 pts of Disads and hundreds of points of powers with some sort of limitations. It's almost impossible for a GM to exploit those limitations to an appropriate degree. In practice, a lot of stuff slides through.

[Gary]

That's what the present limitation does - you get 1 point for every 5 points the power effects. I don't see the need to create a hybrid of two existing mechanics for this.


Except that the 1 for 5 you get back directly increases the power level of the character. He's now a 425 pt character in a 350 campaign.

As a Disad, he's a 350 pt character in a 350 campaign. Big difference.

[OddHat]

If you did the non-persistent OIHID, the character couldn't maintain a secret ID. :sneaky:.

Which is how it worked out with my wife's giant robot. :)



If the GM is willing to work at it, he can make anything balanced. At a certain point though, I notice "limitation burnout", where you have 6 characters all with 150 pts of Disads and hundreds of points of powers with some sort of limitations. It's almost impossible for a GM to exploit those limitations to an appropriate degree. In practice, a lot of stuff slides through.

I agree here. You always have to look at all of the characters in a game carefully before play starts, and forbid frameworks, limits and disads that are just going to be too much hassle to work with.

I don't see OIHID as too much hassle, but I wouldn't worry about it if a GM asked me not to use it in his game.

[WhammeWhamme]

"At least once" means that some had it happen only once. And having it happen only once in your entire gaming career isn't worth an overall -1/4 limitation.

Do all your adventuring scenarios have only one combat? In many scenarios, there are a series of combats. You may use up 5 charges in one combat, 3 in the next, and 4 in the third. Often the GM sets up situations where you can't reload and recharge. The 12 charges are a lot more of a limitation than something that crops up once in an entire adventuring career.


So, because the GMs you've played with would rather penalize "Charges" than "Only in Hero ID", you think "Only in Hero ID" is broken?

Both of them require scenario design to be 'worth the points' as a limitation. It takes _more_ effort to make Charges limiting than OIHID. You actually have to plan out extra battles, and play through them. OIHID, just start the scenario with their pants down, in public, and watch them scramble to get into the fight...

...and if you don't do that, then they definately aren't OIHID characters in the Classic mold.

[Gary]

How about on everything apart from his defenses? Or even on part of his defenses? (Which WAS what was suggested 'use the 60 pts saved to buy extra defenses...')

(Or, do what I did for my latest 250 Mentalist - 'Activation 14-, Only to Activate' (-1/4) on the Constant Powers)


That is illegal for Activation roll which must be rolled every phase even for constant powers. Otherwise, that would be extremely abusive (Act 8- on Armor at the beginning of each day for a -1 limitation).




It also makes their characters _boring_. Disadavantages are the spice. Anything that reduces the Disadvantages (/incentivizes it) is boring. Yes, the limitations system may slightly favour Limited Powers... but that's because they're more interesting.

"I use my EB" (yawn)
"Right... I hit the button on my headset to unleash my Eyebeams... what? It's jammed? @#$%!!!!!!!!!!!"


Why would it make the character boring? The fact that the character spends part of his time as a normal is just as legitimate and interesting as a hunted or a psych lim.

[Gary]

So, because the GMs you've played with would rather penalize "Charges" than "Only in Hero ID", you think "Only in Hero ID" is broken?

Both of them require scenario design to be 'worth the points' as a limitation. It takes _more_ effort to make Charges limiting than OIHID. You actually have to plan out extra battles, and play through them. OIHID, just start the scenario with their pants down, in public, and watch them scramble to get into the fight...

...and if you don't do that, then they definately aren't OIHID characters in the Classic mold.


How difficult is it to throw out a dozen agents here or there? Or have the villain team run off while losing after the first fight?

You never had 3 or 4 part adventures within a single day before?

[Hyper-Man]

I think (and I certainly could be wrong) that Gary is making an argument against differing power levels of otherwise equal point characters in the spirit of fairness to players.

Interrestingly, there was a thread not too long ago that took the completely opposite tack:

Thor and Falcon on the same team: Balancing power levels without all being the same (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14468&highlight=different+power+levels)

and a followup thread:

Mixed Power-Level Campaign Update (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19064&highlight=different+power+levels)

I think if we combine the concepts discussed in the above 2 threads with this one (OIHID) we end up solving both sets of perceived problems. If a character is getting more power due to some type of points savings like OIHID, IIF, never in magnetic fields etc.. he should probably have to face opponents based on his Active Points instead of Real Points.

HM

[WhammeWhamme]

That is illegal for Activation roll which must be rolled every phase even for constant powers. Otherwise, that would be extremely abusive (Act 8- on Armor at the beginning of each day for a -1 limitation).


It costs END to maintain. Therefore, no.

In general, yes. But you can still buy defenses _without_ activation... which is probably what OIHID man should do anyway. (to avoid the whole 'and KO!')



Why would it make the character boring? The fact that the character spends part of his time as a normal is just as legitimate and interesting as a hunted or a psych lim.

It is NOT, however, as interesting as a full 50pt personality, or a An Evil Twin (15pts), a Government Agency Watching You (15pts) AND having pissed off VIPER (20pts).

Oh... and spending part of your time 'acting as a normal' would be the Secret ID limitation. OIHID is just the bit where they really ARE a normal...

[Gary]

While I agree that there are media differences (books and movies/TV have the same problem translating), when the goal of the RPG is to simulate the comics, it seems appropriate to endeavour to minimize those differences.



Peter/Spidey can:

(a) Sense the danger of the sniper taking aim on him.

(b) Turn down an alley to change clothes

(c) "Trip" and fall to the ground when his danger sense spikes, as the sniper shoots before he gets there.

If he had OIHID, he'd be shot before he knew what hit him. That doesn't have to mean "transform head to fine red mist". It could mean "captured by tranqs" or "infected with strange toxin and blackmailed for his life".

Note that it doesn't matter whether he could have aborted to change into his hero ID - he had no reason to do so.

Another example: Peter's with a reporter from the Bugle. They want to get into an office, but it's locked. The occupant's native language is sanskrit - Petercan't read it, but the reporter can. Coming back as Spidey won't work for this reason. Ah, but Peter twists the knob hard with his Spider-strength. "Hey, it was just stuck!" If his STR was OIHID, he lacks that opportunity.

If we were talking about giving characters the ability to avoid these annoyances for free, you'd tell us how unfair that is - they should pay points for the advantage. However, because here it's a rebate of points for sacrificing the advantage, you want to cap the rebate.


I agree that not being able to do some of this stuff in normal ID is worth something. Which is why the player would get points for a quasi-physical limitation. I don't agree that these nuisances are worth 50+ pts back on a character.

[OddHat]

I think (and I certainly could be wrong) that Gary is making an argument against differing power levels of otherwise equal point characters in the spirit of fairness to players.

Eh. With respect to Gary, this is the same problem you get with any limitation or disad that isn't self-activating. I've been in games where the Thor clone never loses his mighty OAF hammer/sword/gun, the Iron Man clone never loses his Armor, the Zatana clone never gets gagged, etc. I don't mind forbiding these limits in a given campaign, but they are not broken from a mechanics point of view.

[WhammeWhamme]

How difficult is it to throw out a dozen agents here or there? Or have the villain team run off while losing after the first fight?

You never had 3 or 4 part adventures within a single day before?

No, I really haven't. Because there's no need.

Now, if someone was relying on charges, then there's a need. If someone is relying on OIHID, then you need 'off the cuff battles'.

There is nothing wrong with 'only one comabt sessions' all the time, or 'all "we hunt them down" sessions', in and of themselves. However, when someone has taken power limitations, that aren't limiting because the GM has decided to toss an assumption of the game out the window...

...it's NOT the fault of the game design. D&D parties with no magic items are also completely unbalanced vs their usual CR. That is not the fault of D&D either...

Or, to stay in Hero... If you say "14- rolls are automatic successes", be prepared for a ton of 14- based characters.

Sheesh.

[WhammeWhamme]

In your campaigns, do you find that most characters transform near combat, or do lots of them already start in hero ID at the start of combat?

Also with activation rolls, it's per shot. So if you take 10 shots during an average scenario, you have a roughly 50% chance of it activating. So the activation roll affects you half the time, not 5% like OIHID.

(repost)

I've only ever had one OIHID player... (This is probably a coincidence)
He transforms _in_ combat, sometimes. (Werewolf, part of a power pool)
Before? No.

Edit: Not that changing before combat fits OIHID. If someone was to usually start transformed... well... no go. OIHID implies a not-HID. That means that you should usually not be in HID. If you want OIHID with no 'pants down', no 'not-HID'.... then, similiar to the battlesuit guy with the 'invincible OIF'... you get downgraded by -1/4.

10 shots is quite a lot, btw.

-Activation on ALL your powers is likely to come up more frequently than OIHID considered that way. But only piecemeal. You won't be stuck at crap CV, DEF _and_ with no attack power. More to the point, with Activation, there's no sense of 'play round it'. If it happens, it happens. So it needn't affect play style that much.

OIHID also has a little bit of 'Noisy' wrapped up into it... no stealthy 'I use my powers through my glasses' for you!

It should come up every scenario, one way or another. Failing to activate is just part of that, of course... maybe sometimes it would be nifty to do stuff secret ID, maybe you just need to blow a phase transforming... or (see below)


Also, OIHID usually implies 'I can steal your powers!' plots are a little easier. After all, if you can 'turn it off'...

[Hyper-Man]

No, I really haven't. Because there's no need.

Now, if someone was relying on charges, then there's a need. If someone is relying on OIHID, then you need 'off the cuff battles'.

There is nothing wrong with 'only one comabt sessions' all the time, or 'all "we hunt them down" sessions', in and of themselves. However, when someone has taken power limitations, that aren't limiting because the GM has decided to toss an assumption of the game out the window...

...it's NOT the fault of the game design. D&D parties with no magic items are also completely unbalanced vs their usual CR. That is not the fault of D&D either...

Or, to stay in Hero... If you say "14- rolls are automatic successes", be prepared for a ton of 14- based characters.

Sheesh. You beat me too this.

Just to add. A 6th level fighter with magic blade and armor just might beat a 10th level fighter depending on how powerful the magic items are. The 6th level fighter knows this. He also knows he's screwed if he loses his magic items since he doesn't have all the other extra's that TRUE higher level in D&D gives like hit points!

[Gary]

It costs END to maintain. Therefore, no.

In general, yes. But you can still buy defenses _without_ activation... which is probably what OIHID man should do anyway. (to avoid the whole 'and KO!')


The activation rules still clearly state that they must be rolled each phase for constant powers.




It is NOT, however, as interesting as a full 50pt personality, or a An Evil Twin (15pts), a Government Agency Watching You (15pts) AND having pissed off VIPER (20pts).

Oh... and spending part of your time 'acting as a normal' would be the Secret ID limitation. OIHID is just the bit where they really ARE a normal...


That's 100 pts of Disads. Dovetails nicely with the 50 you would get for OIHID. I just don't see how OIHID would be less interesting than having no legs or being blind, other legitimate physical limitations.

[Gary]

No, I really haven't. Because there's no need.

Now, if someone was relying on charges, then there's a need. If someone is relying on OIHID, then you need 'off the cuff battles'.

There is nothing wrong with 'only one comabt sessions' all the time, or 'all "we hunt them down" sessions', in and of themselves. However, when someone has taken power limitations, that aren't limiting because the GM has decided to toss an assumption of the game out the window...

...it's NOT the fault of the game design. D&D parties with no magic items are also completely unbalanced vs their usual CR. That is not the fault of D&D either...

Or, to stay in Hero... If you say "14- rolls are automatic successes", be prepared for a ton of 14- based characters.

Sheesh.


You consider a multipart scenario to be tossing the assumptions of the game out the window? You've never ran a multi-session scenario before?

Multisession scenarios are a staple of Hero gaming.

[Gary]

I think (and I certainly could be wrong) that Gary is making an argument against differing power levels of otherwise equal point characters in the spirit of fairness to players.


Yeah, it gets to one of my philosophies. If the majority of players want to play 450 pt characters in a 350 pt world, it's more honest to just give everyone an extra 100 pts each. If only one or two want to, while the majority want to play a 350, then we have a problem.

[WhammeWhamme]

The activation rules still clearly state that they must be rolled each phase for constant powers.


It was a custom modifier. About which the rules specify little.
Does this quibble relate in any way to the suggested fix of Taking defenses with no limitations on them?



That's 100 pts of Disads. Dovetails nicely with the 50 you would get for OIHID. I just don't see how OIHID would be less interesting than having no legs or being blind, other legitimate physical limitations.

50pts pf OIHID?

To be 'worth' 50 points as a Disadvantage, it would have to be equivalent to 50 points of Physical Limitations in being interesting...

10 Albinism
20 Blind
5 Low Body Temperature
15 One Arm

Equivalency? Your Captain Marvel Clone is equally interesting as the Blind One Armed Cold Blooded Albino?

It's either a -1/4 lim, or 15-20pt disadvantage. 50pt Disadvantage is too high...

...and it's not because it's not worth 50 points. It's because disadvantages, inverted into powers, would mostly be worth more than they cost. (Anti-Hunted costs a lot more than Hunted, for example...)

[WhammeWhamme]

You consider a multipart scenario to be tossing the assumptions of the game out the window? You've never ran a multi-session scenario before?

Multisession scenarios are a staple of Hero gaming.

Actually, it would be the other way around.

They are indeed a staple.

But sometimes, people don't actually have them. That doesn't make charges 'broken' any more than never bringing up OIHID makes OIHID broken.

If Hero ID is all that you ever need powers in, then effectively the GM is giving EVERYONE the OIHID limitation for 0pts. If no one ever fires an attack more than 12 times before returning to base, he's giving EVERYONE Charges for 0pts.

_That_ is the problem.

Even Activation roll can be like that if he always say 'whatever. 15- is a Gimme'.

[Gary]

It was a custom modifier. About which the rules specify little.
Does this quibble relate in any way to the suggested fix of Taking defenses with no limitations on them?


If you don't put the limitation on defenses, then you're saving fewer points. You're probably saving 35 pts now instead of 50.





50pts pf OIHID?

To be 'worth' 50 points as a Disadvantage, it would have to be equivalent to 50 points of Physical Limitations in being interesting...

10 Albinism
20 Blind
5 Low Body Temperature
15 One Arm

Equivalency? Your Captain Marvel Clone is equally interesting as the Blind One Armed Cold Blooded Albino?

It's either a -1/4 lim, or 15-20pt disadvantage. 50pt Disadvantage is too high...

...and it's not because it's not worth 50 points. It's because disadvantages, inverted into powers, would mostly be worth more than they cost. (Anti-Hunted costs a lot more than Hunted, for example...)


I think a Blind One Armed Cold Blooded Albino would be unplayable and uninteresting. Why do you think Captain Marvel has lasted so long in comics while stuff like a Blind One Armed Cold Blooded Albino are stuck to being mere supporting characters when they appear at all?

[OddHat]

Yeah, it gets to one of my philosophies. If the majority of players want to play 450 pt characters in a 350 pt world, it's more honest to just give everyone an extra 100 pts each. If only one or two want to, while the majority want to play a 350, then we have a problem.

This is kind of an "eh" issue for me. If Player A wants a magic sword because his character concept includes "I've got a big sword!", and if I as the GM like that idea, I'll probably OK it. It does give him more bang for his buck than Player B (who took no limits on his powers), but I can take care of that by having a few game events where Sword Man has no sword. OIHID is the same; I can always throw in events where OIHID guy can't change, or changes back at an awkward moment, or has whatever trouble makes sense to make up for the extra points he gets for the limit. If Sword Guy were a munchkin, I wouldn't have OKed his character in the first place. (replace "Sword" with "Magic Ring" for a straight comparison of IIF vs OIHID).

[Gary]

Actually, it would be the other way around.

They are indeed a staple.

But sometimes, people don't actually have them. That doesn't make charges 'broken' any more than never bringing up OIHID makes OIHID broken.

If Hero ID is all that you ever need powers in, then effectively the GM is giving EVERYONE the OIHID limitation for 0pts. If no one ever fires an attack more than 12 times before returning to base, he's giving EVERYONE Charges for 0pts.

_That_ is the problem.

Even Activation roll can be like that if he always say 'whatever. 15- is a Gimme'.


It seems to me that having a multi-session scenario or a dozen agents pop up or an alien horde is more common than a character being attacked in normal ID. Especially if you use the default rules and allow the character to abort to heroic ID.

As for the activation roll, sure if the GM ignores the rules, it's broken. Just like if the GM allowed you to roll 20d6 killing attack when you pull out a .38 pistol. However, we're not talking about such a situation.

[WhammeWhamme]

It seems to me that having a multi-session scenario or a dozen agents pop up or an alien horde is more common than a character being attacked in normal ID. Especially if you use the default rules and allow the character to abort to heroic ID.

As for the activation roll, sure if the GM ignores the rules, it's broken. Just like if the GM allowed you to roll 20d6 killing attack when you pull out a .38 pistol. However, we're not talking about such a situation.

Sure, abort to Hero ID. Every single combat? That's gonna hurt. Especially if you have multiple combats in a single scenario...

...and especially if the GM is doing their job, and having your 'distinct, separate identity' that is the _prerequisite_ for OIHID actually exist. Ignoring THAT rule (that the other ID is a limitation, y'know...) is the same thing as your wonderful 20d6 Killing Pistol.

It's NOT following the rules and then getting upset because it wasn't perfectly balanced.

Wow. I feel so much sympathy... wait, no, you brought the 'brokenness' upon yourself.

[WhammeWhamme]

If you don't put the limitation on defenses, then you're saving fewer points. You're probably saving 35 pts now instead of 50.


Not at all... it doesn't even need to be full DEF, after all. Just enough to stay alive and conscious when you blow the roll.

You know... like Captain Levram (;)) and his way of dealing with the ambushes that otherwise have the GM saying 'sorry dude... go read a book till he comes round'.



I think a Blind One Armed Cold Blooded Albino would be unplayable and uninteresting. Why do you think Captain Marvel has lasted so long in comics while stuff like a Blind One Armed Cold Blooded Albino are stuck to being mere supporting characters when they appear at all?

Because Physical Limitations are the one category no one takes 50pts from?

50 points worth of Psych Lims gives you an interesting personality.
50 points of Social Lims gives you Spidey's life.
50 pts of Vulnerabilities gives you Superman (or something...)
50 pts of Hunteds gives you a Rogues Gallery.

50 points worth of "OIHID - The Disadvantage" gives you? What? The third (and I'm being generous) most popular Superman Variation?

Oh wait... he has other stuff too. Like his own villains, and Accidental change, and Psych lims, and, and, and...

Which, y'know, he would have nowhere near as much of if he only had 2/3rds the disads.

Besides which, comics aren't roleplaying. In game, the lack of personality, or enemies, or whatever else it is you cut from his disads because you had a 50pts lump sum... will give you less to play with.

[Rapier]

I believe the rule in 5E is that a -1/4 limitation should effect the character about one in four adventures.
Even that I think is a little excessive. While this is how I handle all limitations, I'm going to run with the IIF example.

1) I don't sit around planning adventures and think "Oh is it Thursday? The HumanHammer needs to lose his focus again tonight." However, I might shift a plot/villainuous hideout a few blocks east to drop it next to the power station (Intense Magentic Fields...TAKE THAT). For the most part, most of the limitations end up becoming limitations for that game because of the situation (eg villains targets Lumberjack's axe) with the notable exceptions of the Not in Intense Magnetic Fields man...which takes a little more planning. But even that planning is appropriate. I find it's easier to develop a villain that can take advantage of a hero's limitation/disads. Electrode Ed has his hideout in an old hydroelectric dam (and I'll be your dam opponent).

2) There are levels/grades of the limitation effect. Sometimes the limitation is only useless for a phase (knocked out of someone's hand...while not exactly IIF appropriate I drew a blank), a turn, a portion of a session or even multiple sessions. Sometimes instead of having the limitation active every 2 or 3 sessions, there is a long span where it has no effect and then is totally inactive for a session or two. This lets things flow a little more naturally and doesn't seem so staged (ONCE...ONCE...and they still make jokes up Disarm Night (tm)). Besides it is VERY difficult to work all player's disads and limitations into a single session or five. You HAVE to spread them out.

Limitations need to limit a power to be worth points. It doesn't take any more effort to stage a combat on the beach (not in water), in a nuclear waste site (not in high radiation), the desert (not in dry conditions) or a power station (not in hgih EM fields) as it does a warehouse, a bank, a street corner, a sport arena or an expressway.

Villains should be using tactics (at least the serious villainy types should, not necessarily the comic relief type). Tactics involves disarming the WildWeasel of his WeaelGun, stealing the FlyingRat's utility belt while he is entangled, targetting The SLUG's GooFlinger etc.

If you aren't doing these things, you are doing a great disservice to yourself and your players. Any real RPer (as opposed to the dastardly MetaGamer in Disguise) WANTS you to use the lims. Its fun and exciting...and a challenge.

[Rapier]

Let me introduce you to the major villain Professor Pervert.... :nonp:
And his main power:

PantyRaid: 50" Teleport, 1 Floating Location (-1 Only into Women's Bedrooms)

and

Peepers: Clairsentience, Only Able to View Through Bathroom Mirrors

[Rapier]

The trouble with that limitation is that usually it takes a "I'm the GM and I'm going to screw with your character" scenario to make it come up. And there are only a limited number of times that the GM can realistically run this type of scenario, and even if you didn't have OIHID, the GM could still run that type of scenario against you anyway.
If this is an accurate assessment, I have great pity for you. The relationship should never be that adversarial. Either the GM is not doing a very good job of running sessions or the players are WAY too uptight and need to chill (and maybe grow up).

I've even been a player (although it's been a while) and I've GMed Champions for 14 years now. Player's fully expect their limitations and disads to come into play. If they don't they are very out of touch (and IMNSHO in the vast minority). It almost sounds like you guys need to sit down out-of-game and discuss things.

[Trebuchet]

And please lay off the insults and personal digs.I'm very sorry you took it as an insult; it was intended only as an observation that you apparently like clearly quantifiable and predictable numbers in your games. Considering you're a serious devotee of Advanced Squad Leader, that's hardly an insult. I get the distinct impression you'd be happier with OIHID if it had "14-" tacked onto it to indicate relative frequency of occurence.

OIHID does take rather more attention and subtlety to run than many Limitations, both for both the GM and the player. If you don't like it, fine. Don't use it or allow it in your campaign. But there is nothing inherently broken about the Limitation itself.

[Gary]

Sure, abort to Hero ID. Every single combat? That's gonna hurt. Especially if you have multiple combats in a single scenario...

...and especially if the GM is doing their job, and having your 'distinct, separate identity' that is the _prerequisite_ for OIHID actually exist. Ignoring THAT rule (that the other ID is a limitation, y'know...) is the same thing as your wonderful 20d6 Killing Pistol.

It's NOT following the rules and then getting upset because it wasn't perfectly balanced.

Wow. I feel so much sympathy... wait, no, you brought the 'brokenness' upon yourself.


I find that the vast majority of combats start with the character in hero ID. Even most people on this board don't pretend otherwise. So I'd say that "Every single combat" is an exaggeration.

The alternate form does exist. Where have I ever stated that it didn't?

[Gary]

Not at all... it doesn't even need to be full DEF, after all. Just enough to stay alive and conscious when you blow the roll.

You know... like Captain Levram (;)) and his way of dealing with the ambushes that otherwise have the GM saying 'sorry dude... go read a book till he comes round'.


If the player did that, it would make OIHID even less of a limitation than it already is. Is that the point you're trying to make?




Because Physical Limitations are the one category no one takes 50pts from?

50 points worth of Psych Lims gives you an interesting personality.
50 points of Social Lims gives you Spidey's life.
50 pts of Vulnerabilities gives you Superman (or something...)
50 pts of Hunteds gives you a Rogues Gallery.

50 points worth of "OIHID - The Disadvantage" gives you? What? The third (and I'm being generous) most popular Superman Variation?

Oh wait... he has other stuff too. Like his own villains, and Accidental change, and Psych lims, and, and, and...

Which, y'know, he would have nowhere near as much of if he only had 2/3rds the disads.

Besides which, comics aren't roleplaying. In game, the lack of personality, or enemies, or whatever else it is you cut from his disads because you had a 50pts lump sum... will give you less to play with.


Nothing stops anyone from taking more limitations than 150. They simply don't get any points for the excess limitations. I've had characters in the past with more than 50 pts of hunteds or psych lims before simply because it made sense for the character. So why should you care if someone can get 50 from this category? Besides, you seem to be arguing that physical lims are inherently less interesting than other lims. I disagree.

[Gary]

If this is an accurate assessment, I have great pity for you. The relationship should never be that adversarial. Either the GM is not doing a very good job of running sessions or the players are WAY too uptight and need to chill (and maybe grow up).

I've even been a player (although it's been a while) and I've GMed Champions for 14 years now. Player's fully expect their limitations and disads to come into play. If they don't they are very out of touch (and IMNSHO in the vast minority). It almost sounds like you guys need to sit down out-of-game and discuss things.


What the heck makes you think it's an adversarial situation? Players expect to be screwed with from time to time.

You're missing out on a great deal of fun if your GM never screws with your character.

[Gary]

This is kind of an "eh" issue for me. If Player A wants a magic sword because his character concept includes "I've got a big sword!", and if I as the GM like that idea, I'll probably OK it. It does give him more bang for his buck than Player B (who took no limits on his powers), but I can take care of that by having a few game events where Sword Man has no sword. OIHID is the same; I can always throw in events where OIHID guy can't change, or changes back at an awkward moment, or has whatever trouble makes sense to make up for the extra points he gets for the limit. If Sword Guy were a munchkin, I wouldn't have OKed his character in the first place. (replace "Sword" with "Magic Ring" for a straight comparison of IIF vs OIHID).

There are degrees of course. I have no problem with a magic sword or ring because presumably it's a relatively small percentage of a character's points.

I dislike disads that affect the vast majority of a character's points. The ones where the character is terrifyingly powerful 95% of the time but helpless 5% of the time.

[Rapier]

What the heck makes you think it's an adversarial situation?
Your diction, actually.


Players expect to be screwed with from time to time.

You're missing out on a great deal of fun if your GM never screws with your character.
Ah. You see I read "screw with your character" in a negative light. I prefer to think of it as bringing your disads and limitations into the foreground of the setting. But for other than a preference for certain turns of phrase, we are in agreement.

[Gary]

Your diction, actually.


Ah. You see I read "screw with your character" in a negative light. I prefer to think of it as bringing your disads and limitations into the foreground of the setting. But for other than a preference for certain turns of phrase, we are in agreement.


Let me expand on my previous statement that you replied to. I feel that the obvious and most common way to exploit OIHID is to attack the character in his normal ID when he has no support. IOW, the GM has to setup some sort of ambush situation. However, the GM could setup the same sort of situation even if the character doesn't have OIHID. It's just that in the second case, the GM will use 3 normal villains or 1 powerful one to take out the hero instead of one normal villain like in the first case.

[Gary]

I'm very sorry you took it as an insult; it was intended only as an observation that you apparently like clearly quantifiable and predictable numbers in your games. Considering you're a serious devotee of Advanced Squad Leader, that's hardly an insult. I get the distinct impression you'd be happier with OIHID if it had "14-" tacked onto it to indicate relative frequency of occurence.

You obviously don't know ASL very well if you think that it's "clearly quantifiable and predictable". :rofl:




OIHID does take rather more attention and subtlety to run than many Limitations, both for both the GM and the player. If you don't like it, fine. Don't use it or allow it in your campaign. But there is nothing inherently broken about the Limitation itself.


As I said, in actual practice it seems to come up less than a limitation that saves 50-75 pts should come up.

[WhammeWhamme]

I find that the vast majority of combats start with the character in hero ID. Even most people on this board don't pretend otherwise. So I'd say that "Every single combat" is an exaggeration.

The alternate form does exist. Where have I ever stated that it didn't?

Let me rephrase that... The alternate form must be more than just special effects. You must actually spend a significant portion of your "screen time" as the normal. Otherwise, it's really not a separate identity. It's just what your PC does when he's not doing the important stuff.

For example, my last PC idea with OIHID:
Enigma II. He has a Symbiote. HIS Symbiote, however, is also a DNPC. It normally hides in his backpack. Why? Because Simon has the attention span of a gnat, and wearing him all the time could lead to problems.

Or my player with OIHID: Fury. He's a Werewolf. You do not want to walk around as a werewolf. People get a little upset.

If your Secret ID is more Bruce Wayne than Clark Kent (ie he exists, and you to conceal your double life, but he's hardly ever relevant), then OIHID is not a limitation.

Strangely enough, I can't think of any comic book 'OIHID' characters like that... for some reason, they do usually start of with 'and now to transform!'.

[WhammeWhamme]

If the player did that, it would make OIHID even less of a limitation than it already is. Is that the point you're trying to make?


The POINT is that Activation 15- is "broken" in precisely the same way, except it's down to die rolls to punish them, not the GM... and die rolls don't decide to slack off.



Nothing stops anyone from taking more limitations than 150. They simply don't get any points for the excess limitations. I've had characters in the past with more than 50 pts of hunteds or psych lims before simply because it made sense for the character. So why should you care if someone can get 50 from this category? Besides, you seem to be arguing that physical lims are inherently less interesting than other lims. I disagree.

Masses of Physical Lims are stupid. One or two is a nice hook.

And your argument here is a complete nullity. If people are going to go over 150 ANYWAY, why does OIHID need to be a 50pt disadvantage? The only time that will be relevant is when they _don't_ go over, and in those cases, the PC will be more boring.

[Gary]

Let me rephrase that... The alternate form must be more than just special effects. You must actually spend a significant portion of your "screen time" as the normal. Otherwise, it's really not a separate identity. It's just what your PC does when he's not doing the important stuff.

For example, my last PC idea with OIHID:
Enigma II. He has a Symbiote. HIS Symbiote, however, is also a DNPC. It normally hides in his backpack. Why? Because Simon has the attention span of a gnat, and wearing him all the time could lead to problems.

Or my player with OIHID: Fury. He's a Werewolf. You do not want to walk around as a werewolf. People get a little upset.

If your Secret ID is more Bruce Wayne than Clark Kent (ie he exists, and you to conceal your double life, but he's hardly ever relevant), then OIHID is not a limitation.

Strangely enough, I can't think of any comic book 'OIHID' characters like that... for some reason, they do usually start of with 'and now to transform!'.


What you're describing actually sounds more like multiform than OIHID.

[Gary]

The POINT is that Activation 15- is "broken" in precisely the same way, except it's down to die rolls to punish them, not the GM... and die rolls don't decide to slack off.


I disagree. Act 15- is hardly as all encompassing as OIHID. And even if it were applied to the majority of the character's points, the constant rolling of every attack, defense, movement, and utility power phase after phase after phase will result in a decent number of failures. When you make 3-4 rolls per phase, it adds up.




Masses of Physical Lims are stupid. One or two is a nice hook.

And your argument here is a complete nullity. If people are going to go over 150 ANYWAY, why does OIHID need to be a 50pt disadvantage? The only time that will be relevant is when they _don't_ go over, and in those cases, the PC will be more boring.


It's pretty arrogant of you to flat out state that the PC is going to be more boring with fewer Disads. It should be up to the individual player to decide that for himself.

[Trebuchet]

You obviously don't know ASL very well if you think that it's "clearly quantifiable and predictable". :rofl:I said "clearly and quantifiable numbers." I've never played ASL, but I've played the original Squad Leader and other wargames since 1975. Knowing that an 88L gun has an x% of penetrating a certain armor or that only certain guns have any chance (and a highly predictable one at that) of penetrating the frontal armor of a Jagdtiger provides a certain security blanket. It's not nearly entirely random like most roleplaying. Sure, a series of low probability events can occur in sequence giving very unlikely results, but those results are not actually random.

IMO you approach role playing very much like a wargame. You want to be able to create "perfect" characters or powersets that provide a guaranteed result for any given situation. You play and calculate the numbers all the time, which is clear from your numerous commentaries on characters here on the forum. I think it's this very obscession with predictability which is making OIHID so hard for you to swallow. The fact that it's no more abusive in reality than IIF or "Not in Intense Magnetic Field" seems irrelevant to you.

Number crunching has its place, but we do mutual storytelling here too. How we give weight to these two aspects of our hobby determines our gaming philosophy.

[OddHat]

There are degrees of course. I have no problem with a magic sword or ring because presumably it's a relatively small percentage of a character's points.

I dislike disads that affect the vast majority of a character's points. The ones where the character is terrifyingly powerful 95% of the time but helpless 5% of the time.

Fair enough. I've seen more than one Green Lantern wanabe over the years who tried to put everything into the ring (or Doc Fate into the Helmet, or Wonder Woman into the gear), and I've never much liked power armor types for similar reasons. I still prefer the "make the limit count" approach to creating a new class of disad though. ;)

[Sean Waters]

Limitations v. disadvantages.

Limitations can grant a larger number of active points to play with and the 'points benefit' varies depending on the size of the power. The limtation will be directly relevant to the power.

Disadvantages usually effect the character as a whole and all of the powers equally. They do not change the active points you can play with (assuming that everyone will take the recommended points value of disadvantages in a given campaign) and the 'points value' is independent of the cost of individual powers.

It has been suggested that you could buy limitations as disadvantages. I suppose you could buy disadvantages as limitations: DNPC (bought as 11- activation roll - half the time you don't get to use your powers as you have to go shopping with your wife/fix up the attic/mow the lawn. See 'The Incredibles') +1 limitation on all powers.

Having said that, I do not think we ought to change the way we buy limitations or disadvantages. Superman is not built with thousands of points of disadvantages, he is bought with thousands of points of GM's bonus.

Gary mentioned that HIDIHO and Multiform may be used interchangably, which is a very valid point. Go for it. The multiform will probably be cheaper than buying all the powers with the limitation. I tend to see the difference as this: HIDO doesn't change the 'base character' - the disadvantages, knowledges and skills, it adds to them. Multiform does change the character completely, and there has to be no relationship between the two forms at all. If you want to be something completely different, use multiform. If you want to be you+, use HIDO.

[OddHat]

Gary mentioned that HIDIHO and Multiform may be used interchangably, which is a very valid point. Go for it. The multiform will probably be cheaper than buying all the powers with the limitation. I tend to see the difference as this: HIDO doesn't change the 'base character' - the disadvantages, knowledges and skills, it adds to them. Multiform does change the character completely, and there has to be no relationship between the two forms at all. If you want to be something completely different, use multiform. If you want to be you+, use HIDO.

Did he? I didn't catch that. They can both be used, and I've approved characters with both. In my experience, Multiform can be much more unbalancing to a game than OIHID unless the GM keeps very strict control over it. I recently saw a player that wanted to play a Multiform character with a VPP in one form and mutipowers in the others, and limits on the powers in every form. Legal, but insanely overpowered for the campaign.

[Hugh Neilson]

There are degrees of course. I have no problem with a magic sword or ring because presumably it's a relatively small percentage of a character's points.

So you woud have a problem with a character who has 300 points Act 15- also? That saves a large percentage of the character's points. It seems reasonable to me that a character who has limitations on more powers would naturally save more points.

By contrast, a disadvantage generally has fixed effects. Either you can walk, or you can't. Inability to walk does not render other powers (other than bonus running, I suppose) less useful.


I dislike disads that affect the vast majority of a character's points. The ones where the character is terrifyingly powerful 95% of the time but helpless 5% of the time.

This, to me, is a more cogent issue. The character operates in a binary model. He is either fully powered, or potentially useless. On the other hand, consider a character whose powers "Do not work against automatons". Example: a mentalist (no telekinesis - purely mind-affecting powers) whose defenses have the SFX of subtly influencing the attacker to pull his punch/srike a glancing blow/etc. Some powers have the limitation by default (eg. Ego Blast) and others have an actual limitation (defenses). When faced with an automaton, the character is useless. Should such a character also be banned? Should the cost of mental powers be raised, and the character have a physical limitation of "can't attack automatons" instead?

[Hugh Neilson]

I disagree. Act 15- is hardly as all encompassing as OIHID. And even if it were applied to the majority of the character's points, the constant rolling of every attack, defense, movement, and utility power phase after phase after phase will result in a decent number of failures. When you make 3-4 rolls per phase, it adds up.

In our last game session, my character's VPP included a Flash and a Drain, both of which acted 15-. He also had an OCV bonus (costs END) which acts 14-. On virtually every phase of a combat that went over two turns, he fired a MPA of the two attack powers using some or all of the bonus OCV. As I recall, he failed one activation roll.

The character's VPP requires all powers have a suite of limitations, and attack powers almost always include Act 15-. He also has an activation roll for the ability to change his VPP (this one on a sliding scale starting at 14-). In general, he fails one roll in a game session.

To me, he's a lot less vulnerable than a guy whose defenses depend on being in a specific form. [Mind you, his defenses normally come primarily from force fields or walls, so unless he knows it's coming, he's pretty vulnerable too. He does have enough inherent defenses to survive a hit without his extra defenses, but with 30 STUN and 10 DEF, a typical 12d6 EB will just barely KO him unless he has extra defenses. He doesn't have OIHID - he lacks any other form.]

[Hugh Neilson]

As to what the drawbacks of OIHID should be, that depends on the character, but there should be one. Colossus is commonly cited as an OIHID character. He would appear to be a good example of Gary's worst case scenario - at best, he changes in a phase, and he seems to change during other actions, implying 0 phase.

I can only recall two circumstances where his extra powers were unavailable. First, mutant powers in general were suppressed, so his OIHID created no special advantage. Second, fighting Magneto. Not because he couldn't change, but because he became a very convenient weapon for Magneto if he did. Is it worth -1/4? Depends on how common Magneto is.

As an aside, I'd buiild Colossus with a lot of abilities linked to his armor, not with OIHID. However, that's also a -1/4 limitation on everything but the armor, and it has almost identical effects, except that activation of the armor is a zero phase action (ie even faster than switching to hero ID). Under Gary's approach, I assume this would also become a disadvantage, since otherwise it can be used to evade the OIHID restriction on all but one power. [And let's realy be abusive - make that 5 PD armor and buy other defenses as PD, ED and Damage Resistance, Linked to Armor :rolleyes: ]

[Sean Waters]

Did he? I didn't catch that. They can both be used, and I've approved characters with both. In my experience, Multiform can be much more unbalancing to a game than OIHID unless the GM keeps very strict control over it. I recently saw a player that wanted to play a Multiform character with a VPP in one form and mutipowers in the others, and limits on the powers in every form. Legal, but insanely overpowered for the campaign.

Bottom of page 8 of this thread. OK, what he said was that an OIHID character described in an earlier post sounded more like an appropriate use for multiform. I was paraphrasing. Or possibly parachuting.

I do hope the player (mentioned above) was taught the error of their ways.

This is a perfect example of a case where a character is rules legal but abusive in terms of balance. You may apply whatever point I'm making to the side of the argument you prefer.

[Sean Waters]

As an aside, I'd buiild Colossus with a lot of abilities linked to his armor, not with OIHID. However, that's also a -1/4 limitation on everything but the armor, and it has almost identical effects, except that activation of the armor is a zero phase action (ie even faster than switching to hero ID). Under Gary's approach, I assume this would also become a disadvantage, since otherwise it can be used to evade the OIHID restriction on all but one power. [And let's realy be abusive - make that 5 PD armor and buy other defenses as PD, ED and Damage Resistance, Linked to Armor :rolleyes: ]

If you had enough armour to make the linked powers equal to or less expensive in terms of active points, it would be -1/2 or -3/4 if you had to use the armour at full value (sheesh...). The disadvantage there is from adjustment powers...lose your armour, lose everything.

[Hugh Neilson]

If you had enough armour to make the linked powers equal to or less expensive in terms of active points, it would be -1/2 or -3/4 if you had to use the armour at full value (sheesh...). The disadvantage there is from adjustment powers...lose your armour, lose everything.

Valid points all round.

My assumption was that the armor would cost considerably lessdue to the extent of powers it will be linked to.

And Colossus seems to have lots of Power Defense, doesn't he? :)

Actually, we should link all our powers to +5 Power Defense, except our 25 Power Defense, if we really want to be abusive... :nonp:

[OddHat]

Bottom of page 8 of this thread. OK, what he said was that an OIHID character described in an earlier post sounded more like an appropriate use for multiform. I was paraphrasing. Or possibly parachuting.

I do hope the player (mentioned above) was taught the error of their ways.

This is a perfect example of a case where a character is rules legal but abusive in terms of balance. You may apply whatever point I'm making to the side of the argument you prefer.

I disalowed the character, and my co-GM banned the player (which I didn't like, but that's another story). In any case it was not, imo, a problem with the rules as such, and keeping it from becoming a problem in the game was easy enough. In another setting, in a much higher powered game, I might have let the character in. With the Hero system, a lot of things end up being judgement calls.

[OddHat]

Valid points all round.

My assumption was that the armor would cost considerably lessdue to the extent of powers it will be linked to.

And Colossus seems to have lots of Power Defense, doesn't he? :)

Actually, we should link all our powers to +5 Power Defense, except our 25 Power Defense, if we really want to be abusive... :nonp:

Make the 25 power defense Innate so it can't be drained. ;)

[Hyper-Man]

Getting back to the roleplaying aspect of OIHID for a moment....

A character largely built around OIHID or Multiform for that matter should require that the PLAYER be putting forth an effort to want to spend gametime in his non-powered form. It shouldn't have to fall on the GM all the time to enforce this. If the player doesn't, a GM can just give him less experience than he would have otherwise earned based on fact that he was facing threats designed for 350 points instead of 400-450 points. A little heavy handed but it would get the point across.

A precedent exists in the source material (comics) with Superman (technically not OIHID but still relevant to this discussion), Billy Batson as well as Iron Man just to name a few. Superman choses to dress up as Clark Kent because that IS who he is, Superman is just a role he plays (as opposed to Batman who plays the role of Bruce Wayne). Billy Batson has a normal life to contend with and no access to superpowers to make that life any easier without calling down "The Lightning". Iron Man can't wear "The Armor" all the time because he still has a real life to live.

Now, if the GM does not want to take the effort to explore the Secret ID moments with these characters it begs to question: does he do it with characters who otherwise have the 24/7 powers like Superman? If not, he isn't even enforcing Disadvantages so who cares about Limitations if everyone participating in the game session is having fun.

My old 80's game used to feature a pretty regular dose of "semi-normal Agents" stories until the team became extremely efficient at taking them down. From then on it was assumed that our characters were still fighting this otherwise common scourge of the everyday supers-world but we did NOT spend anymore game sessions on them. Was that wrong? I don't know for sure but we all had fun. Isn't that the point of these exercises in wasting time?

[Sean Waters]

Getting back to the roleplaying aspect of OIHID for a moment....

A character largely built around OIHID or Multiform for that matter should require that the PLAYER be putting forth an effort to want to spend gametime in his non-powered form. It shouldn't have to fall on the GM all the time to enforce this.

Point of order! Would you expect the player of a werewolf character to hand out silver ammunition?


Now, if the GM does not want to take the effort to explore the Secret ID moments with these characters it begs to question: does he do it with characters who otherwise have the 24/7 powers like Superman? If not, he isn't even enforcing Disadvantages so who cares about Limitations if everyone participating in the game session is having fun.

My old 80's game used to feature a pretty regular dose of "semi-normal Agents" stories until the team became extremely efficient at taking them down. From then on it was assumed that our characters were still fighting this otherwise common scourge of the everyday supers-world but we did NOT spend anymore game sessions on them. Was that wrong? I don't know for sure but we all had fun. Isn't that the point of these exercises in wasting time?

Absolutely right. I think we sometimes get caught up in the minutiae in these boards to the point where we (briefly) lose sight of why we play. Well said!

[Hyper-Man]

Point of order! Would you expect the player of a werewolf character to hand out silver ammunition?
Nope, but he also had better not bitch when the NPC's get their hands on some.

[WhammeWhamme]

Point of order! Would you expect the player of a werewolf character to hand out silver ammunition?


No, but I expect the guys with CvK to not say "Okay, I kill him" and not expect ME to stop them.

Or the guy with Social Limitation: to make an ass of himself in a social situation without prompting.

Or the guy with Activation to, you know, _actually roll_.

[WhammeWhamme]

I disagree. Act 15- is hardly as all encompassing as OIHID. And even if it were applied to the majority of the character's points, the constant rolling of every attack, defense, movement, and utility power phase after phase after phase will result in a decent number of failures. When you make 3-4 rolls per phase, it adds up.


He'll have a few failures, but he will also _always_ have most of his powers.



It's pretty arrogant of you to flat out state that the PC is going to be more boring with fewer Disads. It should be up to the individual player to decide that for himself.

Same character with less disadvantages? Going to have less hooks and quirks. Assuming same player, going to be more boring.

[WhammeWhamme]

What you're describing actually sounds more like multiform than OIHID.

Explain this. How is this NOT OIHID. And what IS OIHID, if this isn't it?

[Warp9]

Absolutely right. I think we sometimes get caught up in the minutiae in these boards to the point where we (briefly) lose sight of why we play. Well said!
You are kidding right??? :angst:

You’re not going to deny that its ALL about the system are you?

The only real reason that we actually play these games is so that we may better understand the elegance of the rules. :rockon:

[Gary]

I said "clearly and quantifiable numbers." I've never played ASL, but I've played the original Squad Leader and other wargames since 1975. Knowing that an 88L gun has an x% of penetrating a certain armor or that only certain guns have any chance (and a highly predictable one at that) of penetrating the frontal armor of a Jagdtiger provides a certain security blanket. It's not nearly entirely random like most roleplaying. Sure, a series of low probability events can occur in sequence giving very unlikely results, but those results are not actually random.

IMO you approach role playing very much like a wargame. You want to be able to create "perfect" characters or powersets that provide a guaranteed result for any given situation. You play and calculate the numbers all the time, which is clear from your numerous commentaries on characters here on the forum. I think it's this very obscession with predictability which is making OIHID so hard for you to swallow. The fact that it's no more abusive in reality than IIF or "Not in Intense Magnetic Field" seems irrelevant to you.

Number crunching has its place, but we do mutual storytelling here too. How we give weight to these two aspects of our hobby determines our gaming philosophy.


You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of ASL. It's true that tanks have fixed to kill numbers, but characters in Champions have fixed numbers of dice. Having a 20 to kill number is no different than a character having 12d6 EB. Both have random results depending on the defenses of the opponent.

How is a 20 TK vs 14 Armor any different than a 12d6 EB vs 25 Def and 23 Con defender? Both of them have random results that are semi- predictable. It's true that a 20 TK vs a halftrack or other light vehicle with very little armor is a near certain kill, but so is a 12d6 EB vs a 2 ED normal with 10 Con.

Why are you so bent on trying to stick a label on me? What makes you think I focus on "perfect" characters? And why are you mentioning IIF as a defense for OIHID when I already stated that I would find an IIF to also be abusive if it also came up as infrequently as OIHID. Once in an entire gaming career.

[Gary]

So you woud have a problem with a character who has 300 points Act 15- also? That saves a large percentage of the character's points. It seems reasonable to me that a character who has limitations on more powers would naturally save more points.

By contrast, a disadvantage generally has fixed effects. Either you can walk, or you can't. Inability to walk does not render other powers (other than bonus running, I suppose) less useful.

Yes, I would have a problem with the 300 ps on Act 15-. If nothing more than the sheer number of rolls that would bog down the game.

Wouldn't a physical limitation that only operates part of the time still be a Disad? I mean if you're Blind except when the temperature is 100 degrees or higher, it would still be considered a physical limitation wouldn't it? Worth less points than full Blindness of course. How is this conceptually different than a power that doesn't operate under certain rare conditions?





This, to me, is a more cogent issue. The character operates in a binary model. He is either fully powered, or potentially useless. On the other hand, consider a character whose powers "Do not work against automatons". Example: a mentalist (no telekinesis - purely mind-affecting powers) whose defenses have the SFX of subtly influencing the attacker to pull his punch/srike a glancing blow/etc. Some powers have the limitation by default (eg. Ego Blast) and others have an actual limitation (defenses). When faced with an automaton, the character is useless. Should such a character also be banned? Should the cost of mental powers be raised, and the character have a physical limitation of "can't attack automatons" instead?


The mentallist is still a 350 most of the time. He's probably about a 150 vs automatons. Far different than the person who gets points back by the bucketful and is a 450 most of the time, as opposed to a 50 a small fraction of the time.

If the OIHID character was 350 all the time like if it were considered a Disad, then we would be comparing the same thing.

[OddHat]

I already stated that I would find an IIF to also be abusive if it also came up as infrequently as OIHID. Once in an entire gaming career.

Gary, I know that I should not be involving myself in what now looks to be a private exchange of flames, but here I am anyway. ;)

OIHID will come up as often as the GM chooses, and the GM has all the tools he needs to make this so. However, as always, there is no reason you have to allow it in your games.

[Gary]

In our last game session, my character's VPP included a Flash and a Drain, both of which acted 15-. He also had an OCV bonus (costs END) which acts 14-. On virtually every phase of a combat that went over two turns, he fired a MPA of the two attack powers using some or all of the bonus OCV. As I recall, he failed one activation roll.

The character's VPP requires all powers have a suite of limitations, and attack powers almost always include Act 15-. He also has an activation roll for the ability to change his VPP (this one on a sliding scale starting at 14-). In general, he fails one roll in a game session.

To me, he's a lot less vulnerable than a guy whose defenses depend on being in a specific form. [Mind you, his defenses normally come primarily from force fields or walls, so unless he knows it's coming, he's pretty vulnerable too. He does have enough inherent defenses to survive a hit without his extra defenses, but with 30 STUN and 10 DEF, a typical 12d6 EB will just barely KO him unless he has extra defenses. He doesn't have OIHID - he lacks any other form.]


Having activation rolls on attacks is far less limiting than having it on defenses or movements. An Act 15- on an attack power is typically worth less than 1 OCV unless you're already near certain to hit the target. Having it on defenses is a form of Russian Roulette...

[Hyper-Man]

Gary,
I think Treb was trying to point out that Champions is not just a wargame like Squad leader although the combat aspects do, as you pointed out, have some striking similarities.

Treb and everyone else who unintentionly turned this debate personal please be mindful that we are here because of mutual interest in a common subject. It can be fun to debate the rules. I have enough stress in other areas of my life and I am sure that most of you do to. I want to come here to have fun debates. Sometimes so I can better understand both sides of the arguments when they might come up during a game. Since I hate wasting game time arguing rules when we could be roleplaying and having a good time!

It looks like some people have made up their minds on the matter. Personaly, if I were ever invited to play in a game ran by Gary, I would have no problem making a character that does not have OIHID or IIF if he doesn't want to deal with them in HIS game (I might complain a little at first if I have great concept using one of those limitations but I know that GMing is a LOT of work so I won't begrudge their effort). I have similar feelings on completely different power constructs so It seems fair to me. I try to recognize the fact that it is my personal preference and not push that preference to other board members who may practice different, but equaly valid, styles of roleplaying.

Anyway,
Lighten up folks!
It's just a game

[Gary]

As an aside, I'd buiild Colossus with a lot of abilities linked to his armor, not with OIHID. However, that's also a -1/4 limitation on everything but the armor, and it has almost identical effects, except that activation of the armor is a zero phase action (ie even faster than switching to hero ID). Under Gary's approach, I assume this would also become a disadvantage, since otherwise it can be used to evade the OIHID restriction on all but one power. [And let's realy be abusive - make that 5 PD armor and buy other defenses as PD, ED and Damage Resistance, Linked to Armor :rolleyes: ]


I'm not even sure it's legal to link stuff to persistent powers. At the very least, it would raise all sorts of warning signs in my head.

[Gary]

He'll have a few failures, but he will also _always_ have most of his powers.

Russian Roulette.




Same character with less disadvantages? Going to have less hooks and quirks. Assuming same player, going to be more boring.

A character is only going to be as interesting as the player wants him to be. A player who doesn't want a Disad won't make it interesting anyway. A character with 100 pts of Disads that he wants is going to be more interesting than a character with 150 pts of Disads that he hates.

[Gary]

Gary,
I think Treb was trying to point out that Champions is not just a wargame like Squad leader although the combat aspects do, as you pointed out, have some striking similarities.


The difference between a wargame and a RPG is that the wargame has fixed objectives, while in the RPG, you choose your own objectives guided by the GM. Also, the RPG is more like cooperative storytelling if done right. After that, the rest is just mechanics. ;)



It looks like some people have made up their minds on the matter. Personaly, if I were ever invited to play in a game ran by Gary, I would have no problem making a character that does not have OIHID or IIF if he doesn't want to deal with them in HIS game (I might complain a little at first if I have great concept using one of those limitations but I know that GMing is a LOT of work so I won't begrudge their effort). I have similar feelings on completely different power constructs so It seems fair to me. I try to recognize the fact that it is my personal preference and not push that preference to other board members who may practice different, but equaly valid, styles of roleplaying.

Anyway,
Lighten up folks!
It's just a game

If you needed a concept to work in my game using a mechanic I dislike, I would help you build the character first using other mechanics. If it couldn't be done and wasn't easy to handwave, I might just give you the extra points if I feel the concept is non-abusive. And I might just give a few extra points to the rest of the players as well. :)

[WhammeWhamme]

Russian Roulette.


Hardly. (See? I can do simple, meaningless "answers" too...)



A character is only going to be as interesting as the player wants him to be. A player who doesn't want a Disad won't make it interesting anyway. A character with 100 pts of Disads that he wants is going to be more interesting than a character with 150 pts of Disads that he hates.

So why have disadvantages at all? Why not just fiat them away? It's not like you NEED them or anything...

Do you really think that the disadvantage system is worthless?

[WhammeWhamme]

Yes, I would have a problem with the 300 ps on Act 15-. If nothing more than the sheer number of rolls that would bog down the game.


What he said "Okay... howbout this. I roll once per phase for everything?".
Or if he had like a randomizer that he could just press a button and tell whether he'd blown the activation, thereby costing no time...

Or, or, or... or... or it was a PBeM/PBB game and time wasn't an issue in that sense?



Wouldn't a physical limitation that only operates part of the time still be a Disad? I mean if you're Blind except when the temperature is 100 degrees or higher, it would still be considered a physical limitation wouldn't it? Worth less points than full Blindness of course. How is this conceptually different than a power that doesn't operate under certain rare conditions?



The mentallist is still a 350 most of the time. He's probably about a 150 vs automatons. Far different than the person who gets points back by the bucketful and is a 450 most of the time, as opposed to a 50 a small fraction of the time.

If the OIHID character was 350 all the time like if it were considered a Disad, then we would be comparing the same thing.

Actually, depends on the Mentalist... if they are powerful, then they can easily be more dangerous than 350 would indicate. And if their defenses are "Psionic" (I move myself out of the way by reading their minds)... the Automaton CAN make them as good as 50-75pts.

Or the 'desolid AND ATTACK!' characters, who fold like a paper umbrella vs the SFX that hits them.

Or an EC based character, who when hit with almost any kind of drain goes sraight to "my powers, my precious powers..."

or, or, or...

[Gary]

Hardly. (See? I can do simple, meaningless "answers" too...)


Nope...




So why have disadvantages at all? Why not just fiat them away? It's not like you NEED them or anything...

Do you really think that the disadvantage system is worthless?


I view the Disad system as a guideline. In my campaigns, I just give the players their starting points and allow them to pick whatever Disads fit their conception. Players usually select 100-150 pts of Disads voluntarily. Of course this only works with reasonably mature players and I wouldn't suggest it as a general change to the Hero System.

[Gary]

What he said "Okay... howbout this. I roll once per phase for everything?".
Or if he had like a randomizer that he could just press a button and tell whether he'd blown the activation, thereby costing no time...

Or, or, or... or... or it was a PBeM/PBB game and time wasn't an issue in that sense?


Every phase that the character flies?




Actually, depends on the Mentalist... if they are powerful, then they can easily be more dangerous than 350 would indicate. And if their defenses are "Psionic" (I move myself out of the way by reading their minds)... the Automaton CAN make them as good as 50-75pts.

Or the 'desolid AND ATTACK!' characters, who fold like a paper umbrella vs the SFX that hits them.

Or an EC based character, who when hit with almost any kind of drain goes sraight to "my powers, my precious powers..."

or, or, or...


If you're referring to Sniper type mentallists with telescopic n-ray vision and tunnelling, then I concede that the rules can be easily abused in other ways than just OIHID. However, this type of character wouldn't be allowed in most campaigns.

Similarly with Desolid characters with Affects Solid World on most of their powers. With the right set of advantages, they could be lethal. But most GMs wouldn't allow this type of characters.

And while I dislike ECs, I've come to the conclusion that they're sorta necessary to balance out ultra cheap Str and Dex. I would personally prefer to replace the EC system with a -1/4 "drain one drain all" limitation.

[WhammeWhamme]

Every phase that the character flies?


Point is what, sorry?



If you're referring to Sniper type mentallists with telescopic n-ray vision and tunnelling, then I concede that the rules can be easily abused in other ways than just OIHID. However, this type of character wouldn't be allowed in most campaigns.

Similarly with Desolid characters with Affects Solid World on most of their powers. With the right set of advantages, they could be lethal. But most GMs wouldn't allow this type of characters.

And while I dislike ECs, I've come to the conclusion that they're sorta necessary to balance out ultra cheap Str and Dex. I would personally prefer to replace the EC system with a -1/4 "drain one drain all" limitation.

1) Mentalists with enough dice or creativity are quite able to be more effective than non-Mental powers based characters. It's the whole "Mind Control Is Godly" problem... (and yes, a good GM stops this from being a problem... much like they stop OIHID from being a problem...)

2) Desolid for-ever characters can be fine.

3) So you support THAT -1/4 limitation universally applied to a character? How is that any different from OIHID _as you claim it to be_. How often do characters get powers drained/suppressed? How much will a player whine when they lose all their powers to that? How useless do they become?

Hypocrisy....

[WhammeWhamme]

I view the Disad system as a guideline. In my campaigns, I just give the players their starting points and allow them to pick whatever Disads fit their conception. Players usually select 100-150 pts of Disads voluntarily. Of course this only works with reasonably mature players and I wouldn't suggest it as a general change to the Hero System.

So, why make it be 50pts? Why not make it 10, or 20, or even 0 if they're not required? After all, it doesn't matter...

[Trebuchet]

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of ASL. It's true that tanks have fixed to kill numbers, but characters in Champions have fixed numbers of dice. Having a 20 to kill number is no different than a character having 12d6 EB. Both have random results depending on the defenses of the opponent.That's true only so far as it applies to straight head-to-head combat. Role playing is a lot more than just comparing defenses versus attacks. When an infantry half-squad in ASL can martial throw a King Tiger or shut off its engine remotely, sneak into the enemy base, and persuade the megavillain's beautiful mistress to deactivate the doomsday device then we'll be looking at parity. And can tanks Dive for Cover to avoid attacks? :D

[Sean Waters]

You are kidding right??? :angst:

You’re not going to deny that its ALL about the system are you?

The only real reason that we actually play these games is so that we may better understand the elegance of the rules. :rockon:

Sorry. Momentary abberation. I'm OK now...

[Sean Waters]

No, but I expect the guys with CvK to not say "Okay, I kill him" and not expect ME to stop them.

Or the guy with Social Limitation: to make an ass of himself in a social situation without prompting.

Or the guy with Activation to, you know, _actually roll_.

Well that is my point. YOU will stop them because you are the GM. Enforcement of disadvantages and limitations is the responsibilty of the GM, IMO. A decent, fair minded player will self police. If you find any decent, fair minded players, please let me know.

[Sean Waters]

Yes, I would have a problem with the 300 ps on Act 15-. If nothing more than the sheer number of rolls that would bog down the game.


Just roll once in the morning, it is the same difference, mathematically. Makes a big difference in terms of game play though.

"Sorry Gonadophage, can't fight you today, I'm feeling normal...er, Gonadophage...OH MOTHER OF MERCY..."

[WhammeWhamme]

Well that is my point. YOU will stop them because you are the GM. Enforcement of disadvantages and limitations is the responsibilty of the GM, IMO. A decent, fair minded player will self police. If you find any decent, fair minded players, please let me know.

No, in those cases, I will _prompt_ them. Much like I would with OIHID (Dude... you have TWO lives here...).

CvK - I will not say 'you don't kill him'. I will just remind him he has a CvK if he forgets. And then delete it from his CS if he doesn't obey it.

Assmaking - "You're being too suave... stop it". Or I will delete if from their CS.

Activation - "Roll the bloody dice..." - Or I will delete it.


And once deleted, the points come straight out of whatever hurts the most.

But I would never FORCE them to act in a particular way... and if they take OIHID and then decide that they don't want to actually play it, well, that OIHID takes a leave of absence...

[Sean Waters]

No, in those cases, I will _prompt_ them. Much like I would with OIHID (Dude... you have TWO lives here...).

CvK - I will not say 'you don't kill him'. I will just remind him he has a CvK if he forgets. And then delete it from his CS if he doesn't obey it.

Assmaking - "You're being too suave... stop it". Or I will delete if from their CS.

Activation - "Roll the bloody dice..." - Or I will delete it.


And once deleted, the points come straight out of whatever hurts the most.

But I would never FORCE them to act in a particular way... and if they take OIHID and then decide that they don't want to actually play it, well, that OIHID takes a leave of absence...

I'd be inclined to force a character to comply with limitations and disadvantages unless they either had the points to buy them off then and there, or take out a points mortgage to do so.

Whatever methodology you employ though, you are taking enforcement action, which is right and proper.

[proditor]

I have a couple of OIHID PC's in my main group, and so far, they have "paid" for every point saved on it. Both of them have been in situations where they weren't all juiced up and ready to rock. Heck, the brick almost died from an attack that his powered form would have laughed at.

I don't have a problem with OIHID, to me it's just another element that requires a chat between the GM and the players during character creation. I have a huge advantage here, and I know it, because I taught my group how to make characters so it's pretty rare that I see a construct that I have to be stern about. We all share pretty similar outlooks on how to make a PC, and we all actually like RPing out our disads, whether power modifiers or actual Disadvantages.

The limitation works for me and my group, and it allows for some of the concepts we wanted without doing funky things with Multiform. :)

[Kristopher]

He'll have a few failures, but he will also _always_ have most of his powers.



Same character with less disadvantages? Going to have less hooks and quirks. Assuming same player, going to be more boring.


I'm always bemused by the notion that a character has to "gimp up" in order to qualify as interesting and playable.

[zornwil]

It seems to me that this is one of the most abused limitations around. (snip)

In my experience, mature roleplayers use this only as appropriate. I don't think I've ever seen a problem with it, and it's relatively rarely used. Where people have used it, they seem to have good ideas that work - such as the old build of one PC, in his Troll guise, it took him about a Turn to transform to hero ID, representing interesting problems/situations.

COULD it be abused, of course, but I think a quick visit to the boards here would give plenty of commentary for any GM.

In practice, I've seen other Lims way more abused or at least possibly so.

[zornwil]

You just answered your own question. Hundreds of points as a limitation effectively increases the characters power level by hundreds of points. Hundreds of points as a Disad is capped, and usually just means that the character has to take fewer other Disads.





I guess in my mind, I have a philosophical problem with a character who's effectively 400-450 pts 95% of the time, and 50-100 pts the other 5% of the time.
As GM, isn't it your responsibility to see to it that it iis not 5%?

[zornwil]

In actual practice, nobody puts activation roll on that many points of abilities.

In actual practice, nobody puts OIHID on that many points of abilities.


Putting Activation Rolls on your defenses or movements is just stupid. A character gets hit hundreds of times in his adventuring career. If he has no defenses 5% of the time, he'll die just from normal adventuring. Not to mention how much it would bog the game down from the player making 5 rolls per phase.

Actually, I've seen this. The PC isn't "dead", they just get knocked out of the combat and probably wounded.

[zornwil]

If you did the non-persistent OIHID, the character couldn't maintain a secret ID. :sneaky:

If the GM is willing to work at it, he can make anything balanced. At a certain point though, I notice "limitation burnout", where you have 6 characters all with 150 pts of Disads and hundreds of points of powers with some sort of limitations. It's almost impossible for a GM to exploit those limitations to an appropriate degree. In practice, a lot of stuff slides through.
I somewhat agree with this, Gary, at least if we go with "disad must hurt". I find it easier not to make players create 150 points of disads.

However, see also http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=416793&postcount=1 which I think counters that disads "must hurt" yet works in a way I find is precisely how HERO has touted actual disads in characters created.

[zornwil]

Now to add something more original, though I stand by my other posts...

One thing I've not seen said in this thread, is that it's not even about frequency of occurrence...it's about criticality.

I have a player with a -1/4 "not in cold (freezing) weather" on lots of powers. I don't know if it comes into play 1 in 4 sessions. I care that it has a corresponding magnitude of effect. The last few sessions it hasn't come into play. But now it's winter and will come into play more frequently. And worse, right now he's figuring out how to deal with the fact they're about to enter into possibly-mortal combat with Magneto, probabably (Dark and mega-powerful) Phoenix, possibly Vision (in my world a sort of hybrid Vision/Mechanon), and in any event a plethora of other bad guys of lesser levels in a battle royale that will very probably take place above the skies of Manhattan in winter, in the cold.

Similarly, other -1/4 lims can happen at very bad times.

It's the QUALITY of the employment of the limitation that matters, how it influences game-play and how interesting it gets.

[Trebuchet]

Now to add something more original, though I stand by my other posts...

One thing I've not seen said in this thread, is that it's not even about frequency of occurrence...it's about criticality.

I have a player with a -1/4 "not in cold (freezing) weather" on lots of powers. I don't know if it comes into play 1 in 4 sessions. I care that it has a corresponding magnitude of effect. The last few sessions it hasn't come into play. But now it's winter and will come into play more frequently. And worse, right now he's figuring out how to deal with the fact they're about to enter into possibly-mortal combat with Magneto, probabably (Dark and mega-powerful) Phoenix, possibly Vision (in my world a sort of hybrid Vision/Mechanon), and in any event a plethora of other bad guys of lesser levels in a battle royale that will very probably take place above the skies of Manhattan in winter, in the cold.

Similarly, other -1/4 lims can happen at very bad times.

It's the QUALITY of the employment of the limitation that matters, how it influences game-play and how interesting it gets.Damn, Zorn, I'd rep you for that if I could. That's a brilliant observation, and I feel stupid for not thinking of that point myself.

In any case, kudos for an excellent observation. :thumbup:

[zornwil]

Damn, Zorn, I'd rep you for that if I could. That's a brilliant observation, and I feel stupid for not thinking of that point myself.

In any case, kudos for an excellent observation. :thumbup:
Thanks, sir, I've enjoyed many of your observations as well. :)

[Hugh Neilson]

Damn, Zorn, I'd rep you for that if I could. That's a brilliant observation, and I feel stupid for not thinking of that point myself.

In any case, kudos for an excellent observation. :thumbup:

Ditto and Rep'd.

[ASIDE: It seems I always want to rep the same person in rapidsuccession, then they fall of the radar for a while.]

[Hugh Neilson]

Getting back to the topic, I find a few things I don't understand about your concerns Gary.

You feel a character with 250 points OIHID (200 RP) + 150 unlimited points is a 400 point character. This must, in your view, be curtailed. Let me offer two other sample characters.

EffortMan has 150 points which cost double END (-1/2; 100 RP) and unlimited points. Archer has 100 points OAF (-1) and 300 unlimited points. Aren't they also 400 point cyaracters by the same logic?

Continuing the analogy, it would be easy to envision EffortMan as instead having the physical limitations "Booster Powers cost double end (frequently; greatly impairing)" and "Spells fail if he can't gesture". Archer could have the Phys Lim "Attack multipower works only if bow and arrows available" (frequently, Greatly impairing).

In other words, your logic should, by extension, apply to most or all limitations. They all increase the maximum points the character can have. For that matter, so does selling back characteristics, running, etc. [Why is "Blind" a physical limitation, but "Weak" isn't?]

Your argument also seems to imply that disadvantages are somehow less limiting to a character. I suggest that Dr. Chill feels his 2x STUN ands BOD from heat/fire attacks and 3d6 Susc to Intense Heat feels at least as limited battling Firewing as Archer feels without his bow.

[Netzilla]

I just wanted to address a couple of points that Gary brought up:

First, about how long it takes to get into your heroic ID when you have OIHID, the rules say:

"the change must take at least a Full Phase, if not longer". (HSR 197)

So, changing forms cannot be done as a 0-phase action, nor can the character do anything else while changing forms. The second part came from a ruling by Steve Long found here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18077).

As for characters just aborting to their heroic ID:

First, if it takes a full phase to complete the transformation. So, even if they do abort, the attack(s) will land well before the transition is complete. Therefore, none of those OIHID defenses will apply (just as if you had a Force Field that took a full phase to turn on). Also, the book also says:

"there must be other difficulties or ways to prevent him from changing identities". (HSR 197)

So, it might even be physically impossible for the character to change IDs.

I didn't recall anyone bringing these two points up, so far (if someone did & I missed it, sorry) but felt they are important things to take into account.

It seems to me that if the GM enforces those two aspects of OIHID, the limitation will indeed be limiting. As for how often the GM should do so, the equivalent activation roll is 15-. That's roughly 5%. So, about 5% of the time, any OIHID powers should unavailable. In my oppinion, and I suspect that of several others in this thread, that's not an unreasonable burden to place on the GM.

[WhammeWhamme]

I'm always bemused by the notion that a character has to "gimp up" in order to qualify as interesting and playable.

"A man is defined by his weaknesses as much as by his strengths".
The most enduring comic book characters have the most interesting weaknesses.

Telll me. How interesting is it to read about the guy with no driving motivations (psych), no quirks or foibles (psych), no physical imperfections (phys), no exotic weaknesses (suscept, depend, vuln), no friends or family (DNPC), no enemies or superiors (Hunted/Watched), no bad luck (unluck) and nothing impeding their interactions with others (social)?

:nonp:

[Sean Waters]

"A man is defined by his weaknesses as much as by his strengths".
The most enduring comic book characters have the most interesting weaknesses.

Telll me. How interesting is it to read about the guy with no driving motivations (psych), no quirks or foibles (psych), no physical imperfections (phys), no exotic weaknesses (suscept, depend, vuln), no friends or family (DNPC), no enemies or superiors (Hunted/Watched), no bad luck (unluck) and nothing impeding their interactions with others (social)?

:nonp:


...you mean the guy with only 150 points?

[Hugh Neilson]

Telll me. How interesting is it to read about the guy with no driving motivations (psych), no quirks or foibles (psych), no physical imperfections (phys), no exotic weaknesses (suscept, depend, vuln), no friends or family (DNPC), no enemies or superiors (Hunted/Watched), no bad luck (unluck) and nothing impeding their interactions with others (social)?

An no rogues gallery (Hunteds), or people he cares about (DNPC's). I far more commonly have more potential disad's than I can use than have trouble filling up 150 points.

[Kristopher]

"A man is defined by his weaknesses as much as by his strengths".
The most enduring comic book characters have the most interesting weaknesses.

Telll me. How interesting is it to read about the guy with no driving motivations (psych), no quirks or foibles (psych), no physical imperfections (phys), no exotic weaknesses (suscept, depend, vuln), no friends or family (DNPC), no enemies or superiors (Hunted/Watched), no bad luck (unluck) and nothing impeding their interactions with others (social)?

:nonp:

In the context of this thread, I was thinking of limits on powers and of the exotic weaknesses -- things that put holes in the character that can be exploited in a fight. The most exploitable limitation I've ever put on on of my Champs PC's powers was OIF, and in that campaign the other characters were so full of drama that it never actually came up -- the GM had his hands full. Which was fine by me, since I'd rather just play a competant, professional character and enjoy solving the current mystery/case/dilema when I game.

Which doesn't mean I play the same soulless cookie-cutter cardboard character in every game -- but then I don't think characters are made unique and interesting by how they can be screwed over.

One of the reasons I don't always get into drama is that the main passtime of drama writers seems to be taking out latent sadism on their characters. Bleah. Whatever. Oh, look, the protagonists are suffering again. **yawn**

Maybe that's why I like the Law and Order franchise so much -- it's not focused on tormenting the lead characters in ever single episode, over and over and over again.

[Trebuchet]

In the context of this thread, I was thinking of limits on powers and of the exotic weaknesses -- things that put holes in the character that can be exploited in a fight. The most exploitable limitation I've ever put on on of my Champs PC's powers was OIF, and in that campaign the other characters were so full of drama that it never actually came up -- the GM had his hands full. Which was fine by me, since I'd rather just play a competant, professional character and enjoy solving the current mystery/case/dilema when I game.

Which doesn't mean I play the same soulless cookie-cutter cardboard character in every game -- but then I don't think characters aren't made unique and interesting by how they can be screwed over.

One of the reasons I don't always get into drama is that the main passtime of drama writers seems to be taking out latent sadism on their characters. Bleah. Whatever. Oh, look, the protagonists are suffering again. **yawn**

Maybe that's why I like the Law and Order franchise so much -- it's not focused on tormenting the lead characters in ever single episode, over and over and over again.I totally agree. I try never to never lose sight of the fact that the PCs in our Champions campaign are the protagonists. It is in essence their "comic" title. It's called the MidGuard campaign because the individual members of MidGuard are the heroes. Limitations and Disadvantages are (at least theoretically) recurring challenges to overcome to make the story more interesting; not simply bludgeons to constantly beat them down with.

[Gary]

Point is what, sorry?


The sheer number of rolls bogging down the game. Apparently, you have no problem whatsoever with someone rolling every single phase for a movement power.




1) Mentalists with enough dice or creativity are quite able to be more effective than non-Mental powers based characters. It's the whole "Mind Control Is Godly" problem... (and yes, a good GM stops this from being a problem... much like they stop OIHID from being a problem...)

2) Desolid for-ever characters can be fine.

3) So you support THAT -1/4 limitation universally applied to a character? How is that any different from OIHID _as you claim it to be_. How often do characters get powers drained/suppressed? How much will a player whine when they lose all their powers to that? How useless do they become?

Hypocrisy....


1) Any character with enough dice or creativity are quite capable of being effective. If they're all based on the same number of points, at least they are all on a level playing field.

2) In your opinion.

3) Drains and suppresses are a lot more common than getting whacked in your normal ID. And usually you don't have this limitation on your stats.

[Gary]

In actual practice, nobody puts OIHID on that many points of abilities.


Yes they do. Just look at the characters posted on these boards. Many have OIHID on more than half their points. None that I can remember have Act roll on more than half their points.




Actually, I've seen this. The PC isn't "dead", they just get knocked out of the combat and probably wounded.


Unless of course they're travelling at noncombat speeds and their flight conks out and they slam into a building. Or if they have it on their life support in space...

[Gary]

Now to add something more original, though I stand by my other posts...

One thing I've not seen said in this thread, is that it's not even about frequency of occurrence...it's about criticality.

I have a player with a -1/4 "not in cold (freezing) weather" on lots of powers. I don't know if it comes into play 1 in 4 sessions. I care that it has a corresponding magnitude of effect. The last few sessions it hasn't come into play. But now it's winter and will come into play more frequently. And worse, right now he's figuring out how to deal with the fact they're about to enter into possibly-mortal combat with Magneto, probabably (Dark and mega-powerful) Phoenix, possibly Vision (in my world a sort of hybrid Vision/Mechanon), and in any event a plethora of other bad guys of lesser levels in a battle royale that will very probably take place above the skies of Manhattan in winter, in the cold.

Similarly, other -1/4 lims can happen at very bad times.

It's the QUALITY of the employment of the limitation that matters, how it influences game-play and how interesting it gets.


Does he have it on his stats? Stats are a huge chunk of a character's points, and something that OIHID is usually placed on whereas something like "not in freezing weather" isn't. And depending on how often I expect "not in freezing weather" to crop up, I might not want a player to take it on all their powers.

[Gary]

Getting back to the topic, I find a few things I don't understand about your concerns Gary.

You feel a character with 250 points OIHID (200 RP) + 150 unlimited points is a 400 point character. This must, in your view, be curtailed. Let me offer two other sample characters.

EffortMan has 150 points which cost double END (-1/2; 100 RP) and unlimited points. Archer has 100 points OAF (-1) and 300 unlimited points. Aren't they also 400 point cyaracters by the same logic?

Continuing the analogy, it would be easy to envision EffortMan as instead having the physical limitations "Booster Powers cost double end (frequently; greatly impairing)" and "Spells fail if he can't gesture". Archer could have the Phys Lim "Attack multipower works only if bow and arrows available" (frequently, Greatly impairing).

In other words, your logic should, by extension, apply to most or all limitations. They all increase the maximum points the character can have. For that matter, so does selling back characteristics, running, etc. [Why is "Blind" a physical limitation, but "Weak" isn't?]

Your argument also seems to imply that disadvantages are somehow less limiting to a character. I suggest that Dr. Chill feels his 2x STUN ands BOD from heat/fire attacks and 3d6 Susc to Intense Heat feels at least as limited battling Firewing as Archer feels without his bow.


1) Effort Man is spending 30 End a phase to maintain his powers. Somehow I think the limitation is self correcting. ;)

2) Archer has the OAF on his attacks. He doesn't have it on his defenses, movements, and stats. If a player came up to me and wanted to play a character with OAF on his attacks, defenses, movements, and stats, I'd tell him to come back with another character. I would flat out forbid it.

3) I made no statement about Disads in general other than the fact that they're usually capped. A character with OIHID as a Disad would be just as limited as a character with it as a Limitation, except that he'll be about the same power level as the rest of the party.

[Gary]

I just wanted to address a couple of points that Gary brought up:

First, about how long it takes to get into your heroic ID when you have OIHID, the rules say:

"the change must take at least a Full Phase, if not longer". (HSR 197)

So, changing forms cannot be done as a 0-phase action, nor can the character do anything else while changing forms. The second part came from a ruling by Steve Long found here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18077).

As for characters just aborting to their heroic ID:

First, if it takes a full phase to complete the transformation. So, even if they do abort, the attack(s) will land well before the transition is complete. Therefore, none of those OIHID defenses will apply (just as if you had a Force Field that took a full phase to turn on). Also, the book also says:

"there must be other difficulties or ways to prevent him from changing identities". (HSR 197)

So, it might even be physically impossible for the character to change IDs.

I didn't recall anyone bringing these two points up, so far (if someone did & I missed it, sorry) but felt they are important things to take into account.

It seems to me that if the GM enforces those two aspects of OIHID, the limitation will indeed be limiting. As for how often the GM should do so, the equivalent activation roll is 15-. That's roughly 5%. So, about 5% of the time, any OIHID powers should unavailable. In my oppinion, and I suspect that of several others in this thread, that's not an unreasonable burden to place on the GM.


This was already brought up. A character can abort to any action that increases his Defenses or is otherwise "protective". Going from normal to heroic ID definitely qualifies. And per the FAQ, a character can abort to anything that takes 2 phases or less. If it takes 2 phases, the character loses his next 2 phases to abort. If it takes less than 2 phases, the character loses only one phase to abort.

So aborting to heroic ID is definitely legal according to the default rules. Which makes OIHID not much of a limitation unless you house rule that you can't abort.

[Trebuchet]

This was already brought up. A character can abort to any action that increases his Defenses or is otherwise "protective". Going from normal to heroic ID definitely qualifies. And per the FAQ, a character can abort to anything that takes 2 phases or less. If it takes 2 phases, the character loses his next 2 phases to abort. If it takes less than 2 phases, the character loses only one phase to abort.

So aborting to heroic ID is definitely legal according to the default rules. Which makes OIHID not much of a limitation unless you house rule that you can't abort.Per the FAQ:

Q: Can a character do anything else in the Full Phase it takes to change identities so he can use powers with the Limitation OIHID?

A: No. Otherwise there wouldn’t be much of a restriction, or any point in specifying that it takes a Full Phase.

We're not dealing with "default rules" here; we're dealing with OIHID-specific rules. Per Steve Long it takes a minimum of 1 full Phase to activate any OIHID powers. For a character with SPD 6 that's two seconds (or more), aka two Segments. So yes, technically you could Abort, but the defensive powers you're attempting to activate won't activate until at least your next Phase. That's how I'd interpret it and enforce it in my campaign. That's a pretty good reason not to put all your defenses in OIHID. It's not a good reason to prohibit OIHID in a campaign.

Your unfathomable dislike for OIHID is misguided IMHO. It doesn't seem to bother any of the other GMs here, and frankly your incessant carping about how unbalancing OIHID is is starting to wear on my nerves. Particularly since you've artificially enhanced the so-called imbalance by presenting a theoretical model where only the character with OIHID is operating on more Active Points than the other characters. That's not only disingenuous, but it's sophistry. The other characters have exactly the same option to select OIHID (or any other Limitation[s]) as the theoretical character in question. Character design doesn't take place in a vaccuum; it takes place within the framework of a campaign. Are you actually playing in or running a Champions campaign, or is all this folderol just theoretical for you? Is it simply impossible for you to admit you are wrong on this topic?

[OddHat]

So aborting to heroic ID is definitely legal according to the default rules. Which makes OIHID not much of a limitation unless you house rule that you can't abort.

It's not legal according to the OIHID rules, or from a limitation-that-is-not-limiting-is-worth-no-points POV. Enforcing that isn't a case of a house rule, and if it were it would be simpler to use that house rule than restructuring only one limit as a disad while not touching others.

[Gary]

Per the FAQ:

Q: Can a character do anything else in the Full Phase it takes to change identities so he can use powers with the Limitation OIHID?

A: No. Otherwise there wouldn’t be much of a restriction, or any point in specifying that it takes a Full Phase.

We're not dealing with "default rules" here; we're dealing with OIHID-specific rules. Per Steve Long it takes a minimum of 1 full Phase to activate any OIHID powers. For a character with SPD 6 that's two seconds (or more), aka two Segments. So yes, technically you could Abort, but the defensive powers you're attempting to activate won't activate until at least your next Phase. That's how I'd interpret it and enforce it in my campaign. That's a pretty good reason not to put all your defenses in OIHID. It's not a good reason to prohibit OIHID in a campaign.

Sigh. Obviously you didn't read the FAQ when I posted the first time. Please pay more attention next time.

Q: What effect does Extra Time have on a character’s ability to Abort to a power?

A: As a default rule, a character can Abort to a power that takes a Full Phase, Delayed Phase, or Extra Segment as normal. He can Abort to a power that takes an Extra Phase, but if so he loses his next two Phases. He cannot Abort to powers that take more Extra Time. The GM can, of course, change this in the interest of common sense, dramatic sense, game balance, or the like.

The fact that you have to house rule this away says that even you think OIHID is unbalancing in its current incarnation. :rolleyes:





Your unfathomable dislike for OIHID is misguided IMHO. It doesn't seem to bother any of the other GMs here, and frankly your incessant carping about how unbalancing OIHID is is starting to wear on my nerves. Particularly since you've artificially enhanced the so-called imbalance by presenting a theoretical model where only the character with OIHID is operating on more Active Points than the other characters. That's not only disingenuous, but it's sophistry. The other characters have exactly the same option to select OIHID (or any other Limitation[s]) as the theoretical character in question. Character design doesn't take place in a vaccuum; it takes place within the framework of a campaign. Are you actually playing in or running a Champions campaign, or is all this folderol just theoretical for you? Is it simply impossible for you to admit you are wrong on this topic?


If it's wearing on your nerves, then perhaps it's best if you don't read this thread any further. We wouldn't want to offend your delicate sensibilities would we. :rolleyes:

The fact that any character has access to something doesn't make it fair or balanced. If a Cosmic VPP had its control cost changed to 0, then every character would still have access to it, but that wouldn't make the new VPP fair or balanced at all.

Let's take another example. Would you allow a character who had all his points with an "Not at Night" limitation? 2/3 of the time he'll be terrifyingly powerful and 1/3 of the time, he'll be worthless. This character is exactly the same as the OIHID character except for frequency and the number of points saved.

[Trebuchet]

The fact that you have to house rule this away says that even you think OIHID is unbalancing in its current incarnation. :rolleyes:No house rule. That's what the rules say, and that's how I'd run it. OIHID is not unbalanced except in your own mind. You've continued to make specious straw man arguments throughout this entire thread despite a dozen other GMs who actually run campaigns telling you you're dead wrong.


If it's wearing on your nerves, then perhaps it's best if you don't read this thread any further.That's the only intelligent remark you've made in this entire thread. :rolleyes:

[Gary]

No house rule. That's what the rules say, and that's how I'd run it. OIHID is not unbalanced except in your own mind. You've continued to make specious straw man arguments throughout this entire thread despite a dozen other GMs who actually run campaigns telling you you're dead wrong.


No, you've ignored the rules yet again after I posted them. Why are you making such specious straw man arguments against what the FAQ actually says?




That's the only intelligent remark you've made in this entire thread. :rolleyes:


Good riddance.

[OddHat]

For those interested on Steve Long's take on whether or not OIHID can be aborted to:


That’s up to the GM, based on his evaluation of the special effects involved, common sense, dramatic sense, game balance, and similar factors. The rules specify that changing to the alternate identity implicit in OIHID takes a minimum of a Full Phase, but often more. The rules also specify that a character can Abort to an action taking a Full Phase, Extra Phase, or Extra Segment, but not to actions requiring more time.
__________________ (Emphasis mine)

So, as it usually does, it comes down to "That's up to the GM." If you as the GM feel that letting someone abort to OIHID is unbalancing, don't let them.

[Gary]

For those interested on Steve Long's take on whether or not OIHID can be aborted to:

(Emphasis mine)

So, as it usually does, it comes down to "That's up to the GM." If you as the GM feel that letting someone abort to OIHID is unbalancing, don't let them.


Of course it's implicit that everything is up to the GM. If a GM feels that anything is unbalancing, he doesn't have to let anyone have it.

Of course if we use this answer for everything, all rules discussions would only last for 2 posts. ;)

[OddHat]

Of course it's implicit that everything is up to the GM. If a GM feels that anything is unbalancing, he doesn't have to let anyone have it.

Of course if we use this answer for everything, all rules discussions would only last for 2 posts. ;)

And wouldn't that be nice and peaceful? :D

[zornwil]

Yes they do. Just look at the characters posted on these boards. Many have OIHID on more than half their points. None that I can remember have Act roll on more than half their points.

More than half or 300? I think there's a marked difference between 200 and 300 points of such in lims.

Regardless, even at 200, I can just say I've never been presented a character as such, but fair enough.


Unless of course they're travelling at noncombat speeds and their flight conks out and they slam into a building. Or if they have it on their life support in space...

Granted, but neither seems very likely at all.

[zornwil]

Does he have it on his stats? Stats are a huge chunk of a character's points, and something that OIHID is usually placed on whereas something like "not in freezing weather" isn't. And depending on how often I expect "not in freezing weather" to crop up, I might not want a player to take it on all their powers.
He has a small core not with those on it, but the higher human and greater levels are with that. Technically, I draw the line more around 0 degrees with wind chill and such, as it's "extreme cold" and simply freezing is so common I didn't count that. His basic "self" (the gelatinous slime) and some core survival abilities, which explain his species' going dormant in such weather, are not subject to that, but that's about it.

[zornwil]

Per Steve Long it takes a minimum of 1 full Phase to activate any OIHID powers. (snip)

I had a player voluntarily submit his character as taking a full turn for no increased value as he considers the 1 phase cheesy. Basically we allowed that his change was incremental and as he was SPD 5 at the time he got a 20% increment of per phase.

PS/EDIT - actually in this character's first incarnation I think he had maybe over 50% of his powers on this, to Gary's question to me just above.

[zornwil]

Of course it's implicit that everything is up to the GM. If a GM feels that anything is unbalancing, he doesn't have to let anyone have it.

Of course if we use this answer for everything, all rules discussions would only last for 2 posts. ;)
I would point out though the conclusion is not so cut-and-dry as you suggest above.

[Netzilla]

This was already brought up. A character can abort to any action that increases his Defenses or is otherwise "protective". Going from normal to heroic ID definitely qualifies. And per the FAQ, a character can abort to anything that takes 2 phases or less. If it takes 2 phases, the character loses his next 2 phases to abort. If it takes less than 2 phases, the character loses only one phase to abort.

So aborting to heroic ID is definitely legal according to the default rules. Which makes OIHID not much of a limitation unless you house rule that you can't abort.

First, as others pointed out, Steve Long ruled that it's something that has to be ruled on as a case-by-case basis taking into account special effects, balance abuses and the such. So, it's not just a hard & fast rule that you automatically can Abort to actions that take more than 0 phases.

If a character is built w/ a 1 phase OIHID on his defenses & also has a Speed higher than the campaign average (allowing a relatively quick recovery of the Abort), that should be a warning sign to the GM. If the Speed is equal to or lower than the campaign average or the OIHID takes ore than 1 phase, that Abort is going to be a lot bigger pain.

As with many power/advantage/limitation combinations, GM interaction is required. That's hardly unusual or undesired in a system as flexible as Hero.

Second, you've not addressed the fact that OIHID has a requirement for there being a way to prevent the change in the first place. This, combined with the character's lack of perfect awareness of all situations, will make Aborting a non-possibility in some cases.

So long as the GM is enforcing the rules of OIHID, it will be limiting. The character will occationally have to burn one or more actions to abort to their powers (and only if defensive) and can do absolutely nothing else during that time (no movement, defensive manuevers, etc). In addition, there will be times that the character cannot even abort due to physical inability (he had to place his magic cane in the overhead luggage compartment), simply not being aware of what's going on (failing the Perception Roll to see the hijackers boarding the plane where there's plenty of hostages) and/or role-playing considerations (you can't call down the lightning because you're sitting inside a crowded airplain).

Sounds to me like the OIHID character's life can get pretty complicated on occation and those points savings aren't coming free. In fact, in every game I've seen involving OIHID characters in which the GM actually did enforce character's lims, those savings did get "paid" for just as often as anyone else's -1/4 lims.

[Trebuchet]

Sounds to me like the OIHID character's life can get pretty complicated on occation and those points savings aren't coming free. In fact, in every game I've seen involving OIHID characters in which the GM actually did enforce character's lims, those savings did get "paid" for just as often as anyone else's -1/4 lims.That's pretty much it in a nutshell, at least in our campaign. YMMV. :D

[zornwil]

I would point out that Gary's examination is good for people who tend to hand out OIHID without thinking, it's a good evaluation of the value proposition and how it can go awry. I think as with other such issues Gary does a service, even if perhaps it's over-stated as an issue.

[Trebuchet]

Gary has actually raised one valid point in this thread: Having too much of a character's powers with an overall Limitation (such as OAF, Not In Intense Magnetic Fields, Only at Night, OIHID, etc.) is indeed a bad idea. Not only does it make the character potentially unbalanced vis-Ã*-vis his teammates, but on those occasions where his Limitation kicks in he's totally helpless and/or useless. A 350 point PC with OIHID on everything is worth 437 points; but a 350 point character with OIF on everything is worth 525 points. But that's an argument only against putting all of one's eggs in one basket and for maintaining game balance, not against OIHID in and of itself.

Dealing with such potential imbalances is part of the GM's job. I wouldn't allow such a character into my campaign, and I suspect Gary wouldn't either if he were running one. So why is this a problem worth 14+ pages of mostly pointless discussion on the boards? :think:

[Hugh Neilson]

1) Effort Man is spending 30 End a phase to maintain his powers. Somehow I think the limitation is self correcting. ;)

2) Archer has the OAF on his attacks. He doesn't have it on his defenses, movements, and stats. If a player came up to me and wanted to play a character with OAF on his attacks, defenses, movements, and stats, I'd tell him to come back with another character. I would flat out forbid it.

3) I made no statement about Disads in general other than the fact that they're usually capped. A character with OIHID as a Disad would be just as limited as a character with it as a Limitation, except that he'll be about the same power level as the rest of the party.

But OAF Man and EffortMan are effectively built on 400 points. How is this fair if OIHID Man is based on 350? It seems about as fair as allowing OIHID Man to be based on 400 points when the characters with no limitations are based on 350.

I don't agree with your contention regarding OIHID, but even if I did, I would still expect it to be applied consistently.

Either it's unfair that limitations allow characters built with more than the "campaign base" [your argument early on] or it isn't.

[Hugh Neilson]

Character design doesn't take place in a vaccuum; it takes place within the framework of a campaign. Are you actually playing in or running a Champions campaign, or is all this folderol just theoretical for you? Is it simply impossible for you to admit you are wrong on this topic?

Can we save this somewhere? This seems a common issue in these threads.

Gary, in the intrests of saving bandwidth, how about posting a list of elements you DON'T find hugely unbalancing? It seems likely that would be much shorter :rolleyes: BTW, I think you mentioned you're playing in a game now (somewhere in the past 14 pages). Congrats - last time I asked, you said you weren't in a game, unfortunately, so I'm glad you found one.

I would suggest, however, that Gary isn't "wrong". It's tough for a subjective opinion to be wrong. Of course, that also means he can't be defined as "right". Gary always seems to have difficulty with the fact his opinions are not universally accepted. Que sera - we all have that issue with some of our opinions.

[Hugh Neilson]

Sigh. Obviously you didn't read the FAQ when I posted the first time. Please pay more attention next time.

Q: What effect does Extra Time have on a character’s ability to Abort to a power?

A: As a default rule, a character can Abort to a power that takes a Full Phase, Delayed Phase, or Extra Segment as normal. He can Abort to a power that takes an Extra Phase, but if so he loses his next two Phases. He cannot Abort to powers that take more Extra Time. The GM can, of course, change this in the interest of common sense, dramatic sense, game balance, or the like.

The fact that you have to house rule this away says that even you think OIHID is unbalancing in its current incarnation. :rolleyes:

You're very selective in what you quote. Yes, you can abort IF your OIHID takes only the bare minimum time required for the limitation, not the "commonly takes much longer" version. To me, that means if you can change in a full phase, there must be some other pretty common ways to prevent the change. If the change requires nothing but extra time, perhaps it should be more than a full phase.

On the other hand, I could take all my powers "Full phase to activate" for -1/4. A character activating an "extra time" power can, by the rules, do other things, so he could also be activating other "full phase to activate" powers. This seems LESS limiting than OIHID, yet is still -1/4. And he can still abort to activate his defensive powers.

Your concern seems far more directed at "The GM isn't enforcing the drawbacks" than "the OIHID is unbalanced". If a player wants the OAF limitation, then tries to argue he can summon back a fully-repaired OAF by exerting his Instant Change, he's not getting a -1 limitation.

If he wants -1/4 for OIHID, but wants it structured so it has no game effect, he's not getting the limitation. That might include taking high Danger Sense outside his OIHID so he can abort to the full phase action against surprise attacks.

[OddHat]

Your concern seems far more directed at "The GM isn't enforcing the drawbacks" than "the OIHID is unbalanced". If a player wants the OAF limitation, then tries to argue he can summon back a fully-repaired OAF by exerting his Instant Change, he's not getting a -1 limitation.

If he wants -1/4 for OIHID, but wants it structured so it has no game effect, he's not getting the limitation. That might include taking high Danger Sense outside his OIHID so he can abort to the full phase action against surprise attacks.

The twin meta-rules of "If it's not limiting the character, it's not worth points" and "The GM need not allow X if it conflicts with common or dramatic sense" would make many of these threads much shorter.

[Hugh Neilson]

Gary has actually raised one valid point in this thread: Having too much of a character's powers with an overall Limitation (such as OAF, Not In Intense Magnetic Fields, Only at Night, OIHID, etc.) is indeed a bad idea. Not only does it make the character potentially unbalanced vis-Ã*-vis his teammates, but on those occasions where his Limitation kicks in he's totally helpless and/or useless. A 350 point PC with OIHID on everything is worth 437 points; but a 350 point character with OIF on everything is worth 525 points. But that's an argument only against putting all of one's eggs in one basket and for maintaining game balance, not against OIHID in and of itself.

Some gamers actually like this approach. Your character can be more powerful than his comrades, but at the cost of having an Achilles' heel which basically cripples him when it's utilized. On a micro sense, I know some players will do this to powers they feel may privide unbalancing. "Well, my 12d6 Telepathy fails in periods of unusual sunspot activity" really means "If you want to run a mysetery plotline, tell me there is unusual sunspot activity."

[Trebuchet]

Some gamers actually like this approach. Your character can be more powerful than his comrades, but at the cost of having an Achilles' heel which basically cripples him when it's utilized. On a micro sense, I know some players will do this to powers they feel may privide unbalancing. "Well, my 12d6 Telepathy fails in periods of unusual sunspot activity" really means "If you want to run a mystery plotline, tell me there is unusual sunspot activity."That's a good point. But then, that line of thinking can be applied to OIHID or any other overarching Limitation as well. I've as much told my GMs that my character Zl'f can't attain her OIHID powers if she's drugged or ill. But then, she's pretty competent without the OIHID anyway. Even without her OIHID powers she's still a DEX 23, SPD 4 MA with 10 martial maneuvers, Combat Luck, Acrobatics 18-, Breakfall 14-, and numerous Skills as well as two Overall Levels.

To me that just means that while it may be rational (and occasionally exciting) to function without one's superpowers, the character should never be completely useless without those powers. Tony Stark may need Iron Man's armor to kick butt, but that certainly doesn't mean he's useless out of his armor. It's amazing what a good Inventor can do with SS: Electronics 20-, a screwdriver and wirecutters to a tech-based villain. :eg:

[WhammeWhamme]

The sheer number of rolls bogging down the game. Apparently, you have no problem whatsoever with someone rolling every single phase for a movement power.


Why would I? It's a valid idea.



1) Any character with enough dice or creativity are quite capable of being effective. If they're all based on the same number of points, at least they are all on a level playing field.

2) In your opinion.

3) Drains and suppresses are a lot more common than getting whacked in your normal ID. And usually you don't have this limitation on your stats.

1) If the limitations of Mental Powers aren't played up, thus rendering the Mentalist PC almost completely useless... they will be far more effective than a 'normal' character build. It's often a 100 vs 500 pt character effectivity...
(value of PC-powers vs value of PC+Value of Villain made his bitch...)

2) Marvellous BS there...

3) Drains and Suppresses, IME, _never_ come up. And I've seen the -1/4 lim on stats. How many GM's actually use drains... and how many don't bother because of the extra bookkeeping...?

[zornwil]

Heck, if we don't beat this to death over 14+ pages, what else would we?

Yeah, I think it's true any +1/4 (or worse) lim applied to an entire character can be/often is unbalancing. I tend to allow a greater leeway in these things plus I like some of the Golden Age heroes who were this way (ridiculous lims such as Hourman's or even the siller Silver Era Superman krypto-anything-does-me-in-and-it's-easier-to-find-than-bugs), but that doesn't make it less dangerous. The character I mentioned above does have a bunch of skills and a few basic abilities, but some GMs would probably insist on the lim applied less. Depends on the game and group and personal preference (and some experience and/or inventiveness to help round things out).

It's hard to ask Gary to provide examples of something balanced in that one could pick any innocuous thing. It would be interesting though (addressed to Gary) if there's any contentious/debated issues regarding balance that we've seen where you are not so concerned with the issue as some, or if, Gary, you're a believer that each mathematically-unbalanced (if I may use that term) balance issue is ultimately best addressed with a rework as opposed to the book's (occasional) expressed warning signs, stop signs, and GM fiat invocations? Even in the latter case, I would not impugn your beliefs, even though I think it's a Quixotic fight.

But I can respect that, even admire it. I think many of us attracted to HERO are so attracted out of a belief that a perfect or nearly-perfect system is possible. I'm not sure why it should raise ire. I think many of us are posting towards the same end as Gary, just few of us in the same direction as he.

[Trebuchet]

But I can respect that, even admire it. I think many of us attracted to HERO are so attracted out of a belief that a perfect or nearly-perfect system is possible. I'm not sure why it should raise ire. I think many of us are posting towards the same end as Gary, just few of us in the same direction as he.I'd sympathise with that viewpoint a lot more if I didn't honestly think Gary is much less interested in making his case than he is in winning the argument at any cost.

That's just my own opinion, of course. :whistle:

[zornwil]

I'd sympathise with that viewpoint a lot more if I didn't honestly think Gary is much less interested in making his case than he is in winning the argument at any cost.

That's just my own opinion, of course. :whistle:
In some ways I agree but in other ways I disagree - a common hallmark among many posters is their "never say die, I must be proven right" attitude, and I'd say that's not unique to Gary. Just to be upfront, I think you fall into that on some frequent occassion and I do on a less frequent but nonetheless occasional basis. As respective heels dig in, it just gets uglier. So it's a two-way street, I posit.

[Hyper-Man]

Hi everyone,

This post is regarding the recent posts about active point limits for using limitations like OIHID. I recently posted a character on this thread: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=518116#post518116

post 41 (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=525452&postcount=41) has a version with 290 points via OIHID and 60 in normal form.
post 27 (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=518116&postcount=27) has one with 250 points via OIHID and 100 in normal form.

The major change made is that the 250 OIHID version does not start out with a dedicated MegaScale flight slot. Otherwise, the combat capabilities of the OIHID forms are virtually identical and only the normal form's combat capabilites were improved.

I welcome input from a GM's perspective on which of these versions you would prefer as well as any other coments or suggestions.

Thanks,

HM

[zornwil]

I don't have a preference if the only difference is the Megascale Flight. Do I need to look beyond that?

Is the DF really worth anything in your world? To me Hyper-man wouldn't really be that distinctive among a world of supers, although it's probably worth a "quirk" for "looks like TV 'children's' show hero"

I feel like he needs more of a weakness. Can someone force him to be the kid form, even if with difficulty? Is he vulnerable to anything? How quick is the Hero change?

I feel like I should know this having seen the character - it's a cool character btw.

[Trebuchet]

The major change made is that the 250 OIHID version does not start out with a dedicated MegaScale flight slot. Otherwise, the combat capabilities of the OIHID forms are virtually identical and only the normal form's combat capabilites were improved.

I welcome input from a GM's perspective on which of these versions you would prefer as well as any other coments or suggestions.In general, as a GM I would prefer a version with a more capable normal ID. Skills often provide unforseen avenues to more interesting solutions to problems than simply pummeling it until something breaks. As an example of what I mean, I once allowed our team's brick, Silhouette, to use her Lightning Calculator (She's a Nobel-winning physicist) to calculate how far she had to deflect a giant mech's upper arm in order to make it's arm-mounted weapon hit itself. It was too clever a trick not to let work, and the mech blew it's other arm off.

If as you say the two versions are virtually identical combat-wise, then by all means take the out of combat more capable option. I don't think you'll regret it, especially if for some reason the hero can't change into his Hero ID.

[Gary]

First, as others pointed out, Steve Long ruled that it's something that has to be ruled on as a case-by-case basis taking into account special effects, balance abuses and the such. So, it's not just a hard & fast rule that you automatically can Abort to actions that take more than 0 phases.

If a character is built w/ a 1 phase OIHID on his defenses & also has a Speed higher than the campaign average (allowing a relatively quick recovery of the Abort), that should be a warning sign to the GM. If the Speed is equal to or lower than the campaign average or the OIHID takes ore than 1 phase, that Abort is going to be a lot bigger pain.

As with many power/advantage/limitation combinations, GM interaction is required. That's hardly unusual or undesired in a system as flexible as Hero.

Second, you've not addressed the fact that OIHID has a requirement for there being a way to prevent the change in the first place. This, combined with the character's lack of perfect awareness of all situations, will make Aborting a non-possibility in some cases.

So long as the GM is enforcing the rules of OIHID, it will be limiting. The character will occationally have to burn one or more actions to abort to their powers (and only if defensive) and can do absolutely nothing else during that time (no movement, defensive manuevers, etc). In addition, there will be times that the character cannot even abort due to physical inability (he had to place his magic cane in the overhead luggage compartment), simply not being aware of what's going on (failing the Perception Roll to see the hijackers boarding the plane where there's plenty of hostages) and/or role-playing considerations (you can't call down the lightning because you're sitting inside a crowded airplain).

Sounds to me like the OIHID character's life can get pretty complicated on occation and those points savings aren't coming free. In fact, in every game I've seen involving OIHID characters in which the GM actually did enforce character's lims, those savings did get "paid" for just as often as anyone else's -1/4 lims.


1) The default rules say that OIHID can take 1 phase to change

2) The default rules say that you can abort to any action that takes 2 phases or less to activate

3) Therefore the default rules state that at least some OIHID can be aborted to.

You can of course house rule that no OIHID can be aborted to, but that's acknowledging that the default rules have a problem.

Let's take a comic example that Hugh posted earlier. In comics, Collossus can and clearly has aborted to his armored form. His "difficulty to change" basically boils down to the fact that he's a liability when Magneto is in the scene.

So unless Magento is around, the only way to utilize his OIHID against him is to ambush him in his normal form before he can react. And it's not common practice for a GM to knock out or kill a character before the character has an action. Just like no GM generally has a sniper with loads of range penalty levels shoot a PC in the head with a 4d6 RKA while he's patrolling after Finding Weakness a few times...

[Gary]

But OAF Man and EffortMan are effectively built on 400 points. How is this fair if OIHID Man is based on 350? It seems about as fair as allowing OIHID Man to be based on 400 points when the characters with no limitations are based on 350.

I don't agree with your contention regarding OIHID, but even if I did, I would still expect it to be applied consistently.

Either it's unfair that limitations allow characters built with more than the "campaign base" [your argument early on] or it isn't.


They are not truly 400 pt characters. 150 pts of powers with 2X End cost isn't really 150 pts. It costs 30 End per phase to maintain, so the character can't last long in combat. Probably no more than 2 phases. Someone with 250 pts of power with OIHID is just as powerful in combat as someone with 300 pts of power bought straight.

[Hyper-Man]

I don't have a preference if the only difference is the Megascale Flight. Do I need to look beyond that?

Is the DF really worth anything in your world? To me Hyper-man wouldn't really be that distinctive among a world of supers, although it's probably worth a "quirk" for "looks like TV 'children's' show hero"

I feel like he needs more of a weakness. Can someone force him to be the kid form, even if with difficulty? Is he vulnerable to anything? How quick is the Hero change?

I feel like I should know this having seen the character - it's a cool character btw. Here you go Zorn...



Not really, the 100 point normal also has Combat Luck (Armor 3PD/3ED) WITHOUT increasing the OIHID forms total defenses by more than a point or two. The over-simplified description of the character is that he is a non-magical take on Captain Marvel/Shazam!. The Distinctive Features is basically there to prevent him from easily using the otherwise more powerful form to solve normal-id type of problems. Example: I remember an issue of Shazam! where Billy Batson transforms into Captain Marvel and dresses in normal clothes just so he can cash a check in a bank as an adult. Hyper-Man the character would not be able to do this since the form itself is sort of a wish fullfillment in some ways. I have been working on a more detailed origin that explains this but just haven't finalized it yet.
I had originally gave him the disadvantage of accidental Change and someone pointed out that this really was not a disadvantage worth any points since Mind Control/Hypnosis would work on him now just as easily. Captain Marvel really does not have any true combat weaknesses like magic or kryptonite that I am aware of so any ideas besides taking extra damage from gravity based powers would be welcome. :nonp:
The way I understand the timing issues for OIHID, it would take him 2 full phases to change. With a 2 speed this means it would not occur until phase 6* or 12 but the non-MegaScale Flight version with Combat Luck also has a 3 speed so it could be finished by phase 4* or 8. ( * assuming it was began on phase 0 which is very unlikely if he wants to preserve his Secret ID in a public place! ). Even if this was Aborted to on phase 1 (which is legal based on rulings by Steve since the character has defenses as part of the transformation) after hiding on phase 0 the full transformation would not COMPLETE until phase 8/12 (SPD 2/3).
That's ok, I didn't know for sure until looking it up. I'll probably add the details to the write-up soon. Thanks.
I actually prefer the 290/60 OIHID/normal build better because the kid never really considered being a crimefighter since he knew his physical attributes were not extraordinary and the lower base stats goes along with that idea. the 250/100 OIHID/normal kid has as good or better stats (15 STR, 14 DEX, 3 SPD, Combat Luck, etc..) than many published agents which, although cool from a player perspective, doesn't make sense to me based on the characters origin.

I look at this character build as an actual first time hero from the 1st game session unlike many builds. It is the reason that I removed the previous Reputation: Impulsive Hero disadvantage I had originally included. This is not to say that I don't fully intend to roleplay such a disadvantage regardless. (If and when I get the opportunity to play/GM in a new Champions game.) I would look forward to the experience process for this character. As Treb pointed out in his last post the more competent normal would be fun but I don't see the look at the total build as being faithful to a common theme.

Regards,

HM

[Gary]

BTW, I think you mentioned you're playing in a game now (somewhere in the past 14 pages). Congrats - last time I asked, you said you weren't in a game, unfortunately, so I'm glad you found one.



Yep, found one. :)

This is an almost anything goes type campaign. I have a stable of characters ranging from 500 to 1800 pts, although only the 500-700 pt characters are actually played in the regular game. The higher point characters adventure only in solo play or short stories.

The character are built mostly straight with large numbers of noncombat skills. So they're not quite as powerful as their points would indicate.

[Gary]

You're very selective in what you quote. Yes, you can abort IF your OIHID takes only the bare minimum time required for the limitation, not the "commonly takes much longer" version. To me, that means if you can change in a full phase, there must be some other pretty common ways to prevent the change. If the change requires nothing but extra time, perhaps it should be more than a full phase.


What's the common way of preventing Collossus?




On the other hand, I could take all my powers "Full phase to activate" for -1/4. A character activating an "extra time" power can, by the rules, do other things, so he could also be activating other "full phase to activate" powers. This seems LESS limiting than OIHID, yet is still -1/4. And he can still abort to activate his defensive powers.

This wouldn't be a limitation for persistent powers. And it wouldn't be a limit for stats. And you can only activate one power at a time with this limitation, so you can't activate your attack, defense, and movement at the same time whereas you can activate everything at the same time with OIHID. Also if you're Stunned or Knocked Out, it takes you another full phase to activate everything again while an OIHID who's Stunned is no more vulnerable than a regular character.




Your concern seems far more directed at "The GM isn't enforcing the drawbacks" than "the OIHID is unbalanced". If a player wants the OAF limitation, then tries to argue he can summon back a fully-repaired OAF by exerting his Instant Change, he's not getting a -1 limitation.

If he wants -1/4 for OIHID, but wants it structured so it has no game effect, he's not getting the limitation. That might include taking high Danger Sense outside his OIHID so he can abort to the full phase action against surprise attacks.

That's the stock answer to everything.

I don't consider the surprise attack to be an especially compelling argument against OIHID since a surprise attack that can knock out the character can occur anyway regardless of whether you have powers or not. In general, most GM's never set up a situation where a character gets KO'd without a chance to do something. And in the situation where that occurs, it's to advance the plot in which case the GM could set it up anyway if he wanted to.

[Gary]

Why would I? It's a valid idea.


Rolling every phase for movements. Like that won't bog down the game.




1) If the limitations of Mental Powers aren't played up, thus rendering the Mentalist PC almost completely useless... they will be far more effective than a 'normal' character build. It's often a 100 vs 500 pt character effectivity...
(value of PC-powers vs value of PC+Value of Villain made his bitch...)

2) Marvellous BS there...

3) Drains and Suppresses, IME, _never_ come up. And I've seen the -1/4 lim on stats. How many GM's actually use drains... and how many don't bother because of the extra bookkeeping...?


1) IME, the only truly unbalancing mentallist is the sniper mentallist who attacks from far away with some sort of mind scan or enhanced senses or invisibility/darkness. The ones who have to be on the battlefield and subject to enemy attacks aren't especially unbalancing.

To make the villain your bitch requires +30 and a failed Ego roll from the villain. Easier said than done...

2) Likewise

3) Your campaign is very different from the ones I've been in then. Drains and suppresses occur a fair amount because they're very effective.

[WhammeWhamme]

Rolling every phase for movements. Like that won't bog down the game.


Not at all in a PBeM/PBB, only slightly FtF unless you have a 'slow' player. Try it. An extra roll or two per phase, on 2d6, vs a set difficulty that requires no bookkeeping, is not much of a waster of time.

How is "bogs the game down" a reason for Activation Guy _not_ being efficient, anyqay? So he's annoying. So what?




1) IME, the only truly unbalancing mentallist is the sniper mentallist who attacks from far away with some sort of mind scan or enhanced senses or invisibility/darkness. The ones who have to be on the battlefield and subject to enemy attacks aren't especially unbalancing.

To make the villain your bitch requires +30 and a failed Ego roll from the villain. Easier said than done...

2) Likewise

3) Your campaign is very different from the ones I've been in then. Drains and suppresses occur a fair amount because they're very effective.

1) Subtlety... or just a lot of dice... and you can get a huge swing.
3) How many 'characters posted to the boards' have many drains/power def attacks. And since it's quite cheap to patch up that hole in your defenses, thereby eliminating any weakness, it gets worse...

[WhammeWhamme]

What's the common way of preventing Collossus?


Collossus, last version, was never limited beyond how a mutant who did not have the on/off option... so, in game terms, he bought off OIHID _and_ bought down his disadvantages relating to shifting forms.

Anyone who says 'it only takes a phase to shift, and there's nothing that can stop it' about their OIHID is chosing to take a limitation that is not a limitation at all... of course, by the book, that's not a -1/4 lim.

[Gary]

Not at all in a PBeM/PBB, only slightly FtF unless you have a 'slow' player. Try it. An extra roll or two per phase, on 2d6, vs a set difficulty that requires no bookkeeping, is not much of a waster of time.

How is "bogs the game down" a reason for Activation Guy _not_ being efficient, anyqay? So he's annoying. So what?


When he's flying in the city at noncombat speeds for 3 turns, that's 18 rolls. A failed roll could easily mean careening into a building. And 18 extra rolls bogs down the game.





1) Subtlety... or just a lot of dice... and you can get a huge swing.
3) How many 'characters posted to the boards' have many drains/power def attacks. And since it's quite cheap to patch up that hole in your defenses, thereby eliminating any weakness, it gets worse...


1) That's true of most powers, not just mental ones. Subtle uses of TK for example, could wreak havoc. And lots of dice on almost anything can wipe out any opponent.

2) Look it up. Lots of characters have drains of some sort in a multipower or have access to them in a pool.

If you use the -1/4 "drain one drain all" limitation, then buying large amounts of power defense means that you don't get to take the limitation.

[Gary]

Collossus, last version, was never limited beyond how a mutant who did not have the on/off option... so, in game terms, he bought off OIHID _and_ bought down his disadvantages relating to shifting forms.

Anyone who says 'it only takes a phase to shift, and there's nothing that can stop it' about their OIHID is chosing to take a limitation that is not a limitation at all... of course, by the book, that's not a -1/4 lim.


It is a limitation. Just not one worth -1/4 IMO. Also, Collossus does have something to stop the change. His name is Magneto. :D

[JmOz]

Funny I still play the 4th edition way, Where the limitation is that at times you don't have your powers so it is a pain to be attacked in Civ ID because you can't use your powers when no one is looking...go figure...

It's up to the GM, those points saved come from being limited, it is his job to make sure they are limiting. If it takes a phase to transform or an hour I know I can make you pay for it, so I am not worried. But if you need extra hooks to make your job as GM possible, by all means do it, your game. I am just not going to turn down a nice build based on having to work a little harder as a GM.

[Hugh Neilson]

What's the common way of preventing Collossus?

There is none. I also don't see him needing a full phase - he seems to change as a zero phase. Even in his first appearance, he shifts as he runs towards the tractor. However, I don't see him as OIHID. He has a lot of powers Linked to his armor, as previously postulated.


This wouldn't be a limitation for persistent powers. And it wouldn't be a limit for stats. And you can only activate one power at a time with this limitation, so you can't activate your attack, defense, and movement at the same time whereas you can activate everything at the same time with OIHID. Also if you're Stunned or Knocked Out, it takes you another full phase to activate everything again while an OIHID who's Stunned is no more vulnerable than a regular character.

On p 187 of FRED, it actually notes the halved limitation "applies to Constant or Persistent powers which only require extra time to activate". Why would you conclude it is not a limitation for persistent powers (and stats are persistent, and become a power when advantages or limitations are applied to them).

Nothing prevents other powers being activated at the same time - FREd 186 tells us other actions can be takjen at the same time, or an extra -1/4 limitation is applied. Nowhere does it state the other actions cannot include activating other powes which require extra time.

Stunned or KO'd - yep, nonpersistent powers go down. Stats and persistent powers don't. Makes no difference whether they took extra time to activate.


I don't consider the surprise attack to be an especially compelling argument against OIHID since a surprise attack that can knock out the character can occur anyway regardless of whether you have powers or not. In general, most GM's never set up a situation where a character gets KO'd without a chance to do something. And in the situation where that occurs, it's to advance the plot in which case the GM could set it up anyway if he wanted to.

In general, such GM's have explicitly chosen not to exploit a key limit imposed by OIHID.

Gary, you seem focused on 1 phase OIHID with no other restrictions. The phrasing on p 197, commencing with "In order for this Limitation to be valid, the character must have some difficulty changing forms" does not imply such a structure must be permitted. The two examples given are of a character requiring considerably more than a full phase, and one whose switch can be blocked by his being gagged (ie other requirements to switch).

But yes, if a GM won't bother enforcing a limitation, it won't be very limiting. If your hunteds never show up, it's not very disadvantageous either. But that's a GM issue, not a rules issue, as many others have already pointed out over the last 15 pages.

[Gary]

There is none. I also don't see him needing a full phase - he seems to change as a zero phase. Even in his first appearance, he shifts as he runs towards the tractor. However, I don't see him as OIHID. He has a lot of powers Linked to his armor, as previously postulated.



Yet many incarnations of him seem to have OIHID.




On p 187 of FRED, it actually notes the halved limitation "applies to Constant or Persistent powers which only require extra time to activate". Why would you conclude it is not a limitation for persistent powers (and stats are persistent, and become a power when advantages or limitations are applied to them).

Hmm, so it does. I've been playing it wrong forever. However, I personally wouldn't consider it a valid limitation for persistent powers. Otherwise I'd always take 1 turn or 1 minute extra time to put on Powered Armor and I'd do so at the beginning of each day. Or I'd have some mystic ritual that I would do once in my lifetime and never do again unless the persistent powers were dispelled for whatever reason.




Nothing prevents other powers being activated at the same time - FREd 186 tells us other actions can be takjen at the same time, or an extra -1/4 limitation is applied. Nowhere does it state the other actions cannot include activating other powes which require extra time.

Stunned or KO'd - yep, nonpersistent powers go down. Stats and persistent powers don't. Makes no difference whether they took extra time to activate.

He can take any other action that requires 0 phase or no time. Otherwise a Full Phase action + 1/2 Phase normal action means 1.5 phases used up which is too many. Or Full Phase action + Full Phase action = 2 Phases which is illegal.




In general, such GM's have explicitly chosen not to exploit a key limit imposed by OIHID.

Do you often KO a PC without allowing the PC an action? IME, this is almost never done and when it is, it's usually to advance the plot. Nobody just says to the player, "Sorry Bub, but Meat Ripper just hit you with his chainsaw while you weren't looking".




Gary, you seem focused on 1 phase OIHID with no other restrictions. The phrasing on p 197, commencing with "In order for this Limitation to be valid, the character must have some difficulty changing forms" does not imply such a structure must be permitted. The two examples given are of a character requiring considerably more than a full phase, and one whose switch can be blocked by his being gagged (ie other requirements to switch).

But yes, if a GM won't bother enforcing a limitation, it won't be very limiting. If your hunteds never show up, it's not very disadvantageous either. But that's a GM issue, not a rules issue, as many others have already pointed out over the last 15 pages.


Of course you can say that about anything. If 12 charges was listed in the book as a -2 limitation, you can argue that it's the GM's job to make sure that 12 charges is worth -2 by always throwing out hundreds of agents and having huge multipart adventures. If the GM isn't making it worth -2, it's his own fault according to this theory.

Sometimes the limitations in the book just aren't worth their value. Cannot Push is worth a -1/4 limitation, yet nobody really thinks it's worth that much. 10d6 EB Cannot Push costs 40 pts and costs 5 End for max damage. 8d6 EB costs the same 40, and maxes out at 10d6 at the cost of 14 End.

[OddHat]

Sometimes the limitations in the book just aren't worth their value.

Especially when the GM refuses to enforce them. ;)

[WhammeWhamme]

It is a limitation. Just not one worth -1/4 IMO. Also, Collossus does have something to stop the change. His name is Magneto. :D

No, it is not a limitation. It's SFX for why his DF and Phys Lim are not always on.

However, 'a limtiation that is worth less than -1/4' and 'a limitation that is worth no points back' is the exact same thing.

And what does Magneto do to Colossus that he couldn't do to a brick with a permanently metallic body? (If the answer is 'scare him into staying normal'... well... that's not an answer.)

[WhammeWhamme]

When he's flying in the city at noncombat speeds for 3 turns, that's 18 rolls. A failed roll could easily mean careening into a building. And 18 extra rolls bogs down the game.


(uses die roller program 18 times). Hmm. That didn't take long...




1) That's true of most powers, not just mental ones. Subtle uses of TK for example, could wreak havoc. And lots of dice on almost anything can wipe out any opponent.

2) Look it up. Lots of characters have drains of some sort in a multipower or have access to them in a pool.

If you use the -1/4 "drain one drain all" limitation, then buying large amounts of power defense means that you don't get to take the limitation.

1) "Subtle" usage of Mental Powers is "blast in combat while actually THINKING about what I'm doing" - you know, the kind of thing that anyone who actually cares about EFFECTIVENESS would do. And many dice of Mental Powers is a heck of a lot more efficient than equal AP in other powers.

Ooh... I have a replacement for 2) (since you apparently conceded the point):
2) PRE. 'nuff said.

3) Now, how many drains that would apply to the average build?

[Gary]

(uses die roller program 18 times). Hmm. That didn't take long...


You failed rolls 4, 9, and 14. Adjudicate the failures. Now the character has to travel for 20 minutes to the next city. 600 rolls please with adjudication for each failure.





1) "Subtle" usage of Mental Powers is "blast in combat while actually THINKING about what I'm doing" - you know, the kind of thing that anyone who actually cares about EFFECTIVENESS would do. And many dice of Mental Powers is a heck of a lot more efficient than equal AP in other powers.

Ooh... I have a replacement for 2) (since you apparently conceded the point):
2) PRE. 'nuff said.

3) Now, how many drains that would apply to the average build?


1) Requires a great deal of GM leeway. And the target still has to fail a breakout roll. Every power requires thinking.

Lots of dice of mental powers means lots of mental defenses if the campaign is high level. You're no better off than a lower level campaign. Also, typical campaigns don't have that many dice.

2) I conceded nothing. You were the one who didn't have a 2) in your last response. Pre could be powerful, but it's usually carefully controlled by the GM.

3) Lots. Most people have Str, Dex, Spd, Stun, or Flight. And anyone with a pool that has been posted could have almost any type of drain or suppress they wish. Also, I guarantee you that if people take the "drain one drain all" limitation on their powers, more GMs would build characters with drain or suppress.

[Netzilla]

1) The default rules say that OIHID can take 1 phase to change

2) The default rules say that you can abort to any action that takes 2 phases or less to activate

3) Therefore the default rules state that at least some OIHID can be aborted to.

Absolutely none of which contradicts anything I wrote in the message you're replying to.


You can of course house rule that no OIHID can be aborted to, but that's acknowledging that the default rules have a problem.

What house rule? Where in the message you replied to did I ever say that no OIHID could be Aborted to? I simply applied the same guidelines that Steve Long officially says to apply: special effects & game balance. Not a single house rule needed.


Let's take a comic example that Hugh posted earlier. In comics, Collossus can and clearly has aborted to his armored form. His "difficulty to change" basically boils down to the fact that he's a liability when Magneto is in the scene.

So unless Magento is around, the only way to utilize his OIHID against him is to ambush him in his normal form before he can react.

Collossus also is capable of changing forms mid-action and takes less than a second to do so; since it takes less than a Full Phase action to change, he's not really an OIHID. Captain Marvel is a better example.


And it's not common practice for a GM to knock out or kill a character before the character has an action. Just like no GM generally has a sniper with loads of range penalty levels shoot a PC in the head with a 4d6 RKA while he's patrolling after Finding Weakness a few times...

Of course, you don't need to go anywhere near that far to make OIHID a limitation. If the only ways you can think of to limit OIHID are combat-related, your lack of imagination is the problem, not OIHID. After all, I listed 3 example ways of preventing the change to a Hero ID, none of which required the PC being unconcious.

You also still haven't addressed the fact that OIHID should have a way of preventing the change.

[JmOz]

The thing I find the most amusing in this discusion is the people saying colossus has all his powers linked to armor

So in otherwords all his powers get a -1/4 linked limitation (except armor)+ his armor gets visible (-1/4), Umm so every power gets a -1/4, semantics at that point...

[Hugh Neilson]

The thing I find the most amusing in this discusion is the people saying colossus has all his powers linked to armor

So in otherwords all his powers get a -1/4 linked limitation (except armor)+ his armor gets visible (-1/4), Umm so every power gets a -1/4, semantics at that point...

Yup. Different -1/4, but just as "limiting". If the rules provide for a number of mechanics to get the same build, and they all cost out the same, I'm inclined to think that is the cost intended by the rules. It's when getting the same effect different ways has wildly variable costs that I perceive a problem.

[Hugh Neilson]

You failed rolls 4, 9, and 14. Adjudicate the failures. Now the character has to travel for 20 minutes to the next city. 600 rolls please with adjudication for each failure.

You rolled an 18 to hit. Adjudicate the results. You missed with to hit rolls 4, 9 and 14. Adjudicate where the stray energy blasts went. There's lots of rolls which require adjudication. A few more are not going to trash the game. The flier might well have ben hit for knockback from three different angles in the fight. Adjudication ofhow much knockback translates into upward motion, how much to lateral, and what happens the next segment also takes time.

As for the cross country trip, I would expect a character with flight on an activation roll to use it for short bursts only. Flying cross-country seems something a limitation of this nature inherently prevents.

If you really want to play it out... The character has to travel for 20 minutes and his Flight acts 14-? Well, 20/0.8 = 25, so it takes him 25 minutes. Once he gets high enough that a fail only results in loss of travel time (and a bit of altitude), life goes on. [BTW, most characters I see with flight on activation have a few base inches, plus bonus speed on activation, much like OIHID characters have some defenses in their base form, and a bunch more which activate when they switch forms.]

[Hugh Neilson]

Mental powers, to put it in context...


1) Requires a great deal of GM leeway. And the target still has to fail a breakout roll. Every power requires thinking.

Lots of dice of mental powers means lots of mental defenses if the campaign is high level. You're no better off than a lower level campaign. Also, typical campaigns don't have that many dice.

12d6 hits a normal ego target for an average of 42, achieving a +20 effect with -2 to the breakout roll (9-). This is sufficient to swap your team with his team using mental illusions. Most 350 point villain teams have a member or two who are of normal ego with no mental defenses.

A 75 point multipower can support a 12d6 1/2 END mind control and a 10d6 1/2 END Cumulative mind control. 60 points pof effect can handle most targets fairly readily, although you now need two shots, on average, to get there.

If you're in one of those games where everyone buys defenses to everything because no one can stand having an Achilles' heel, I think you have left the Supers genre.

[JmOz]

If you're in one of those games where everyone buys defenses to everything because no one can stand having an Achilles' heel, I think you have left the Supers genre.

I think that is unfair.

Many higher point characters can and probably SHOULD buy a little of most of the defences, it is a question of scale.

My world has a team called the Luner Centurians (Centurians is actualy a bunch of smaller teams, the Lunar are the big guns, but I digress). Most of them have 10-12 points of Mental Defence, there PSI and Mage have more. Why does there brick have any? well not including the fact that I consider it a stat, it would be wrong for a 750 point character to get easily dominated by a 250 point mentalist. As it stands, he can be influenced by a 10-12 d6 Mental power, but it will be far from a domination type thing (Ego 18, MD 12 =30, so most mental effects will be in the +10 region). Power Defence is the same (5-10 points worth), though I do require F/X lims on PowD.

The big thing is can characters on the same level effect the character? In otherwords Vanguard (The above mentioned Brick) should be able to be greatly effected by a 750 point mentalist, but essentialy laugh off the 250 point Mentalist, or even the 350 point...

[zornwil]

I think that is unfair.

Many higher point characters can and probably SHOULD buy a little of most of the defences, it is a question of scale.


I think that's generally true for high-powered supers, and reflects the genre GENERALLY in that you see the higher-powered guys having more and more sturdiness against attacks, even those less usual ones such as mental.

Then again, as you say, I think we do have to be careful about "scale" and that generally characters even on that high end should have some areas of weakness, even if it's relative at that scale.

PS/EDIT - and I would add, it's notable that this is also heavily influenced by the gaming-vs-fiction issue. It's hard to achieve an effect in a gaming world of "mentalists don't come after me unless it's plot-convenient" without using MD, generally.

[Hugh Neilson]

I think that's generally true for high-powered supers, and reflects the genre GENERALLY in that you see the higher-powered guys having more and more sturdiness against attacks, even those less usual ones such as mental.

Mental is also a tougher issue under the genre. Virtually every team with a telepath seems to gradually "train" its members to resist mental attacks. Is there an X-Men with no mental defense?


Then again, as you say, I think we do have to be careful about "scale" and that generally characters even on that high end should have some areas of weakness, even if it's relative at that scale.

Superman (pretty high as points go, IMO) is vulnerable to mental attacks, and even more so to magical attacks. I suggest a relatively low-powered magic-based character should also generally clean Supes' clock. IMO, there's nothing inherently wrong with a 750 point character being taken to the cleaners by a 350 point character which take advantage of the Big Guy's weaknesses. But if we put 5 of those 350 point characters up against 5 of the 750 pointers, the outcome will never be in doubt. We can double the 350 pointers and still see little challenge.

"Lunar Centurians" leads me to think JLA big guns. A 350 point wizard can likely clock Superman, and 350 points of fire powers will put paid to J'onn. But Supes and J'onn vs. Wizard and Flamethrower? No contest.



PS/EDIT - and I would add, it's notable that this is also heavily influenced by the gaming-vs-fiction issue. It's hard to achieve an effect in a gaming world of "mentalists don't come after me unless it's plot-convenient" without using MD, generally.

This is very true. It's also hard for the hero to break free of domination because it's dramatically appropriate, instead of because he made a lucky roll.

If every area of weakness is attacked by the GM on a near-constant basis, players will not wish to leave an area of weakness to be exploited. If, on the other hand, weaknesses only come up infrequently, the player does not feel crippled by his lack of, say, mental or flash defense, and is more willing to leave that chink in the character's armour.

[Sean Waters]

Oh my god, are you still arguing this one?

Look, Gary is right, you can abort to a Hero ID, but it depends if your GM lets you. If you can then there should be some other commensurate disadvantage, and if there isn't then the charcter shouldn't be getting points for the limitation.

Whether a Hero ID is limiting depends on whether the GM and/or player is willing to put in the effort to play it properly. It is no more or less restricting than other limitations if it is played/enforced right.

I think it is a role playing opportunity so I am going to allow it in my games and build characters using it, but I won't feel at all put out if anyone takes a different view.

See you all in another three or four pages...

[Gary]

Absolutely none of which contradicts anything I wrote in the message you're replying to.



What house rule? Where in the message you replied to did I ever say that no OIHID could be Aborted to? I simply applied the same guidelines that Steve Long officially says to apply: special effects & game balance. Not a single house rule needed.


Am I contradicting you? I was merely stating a point.




Collossus also is capable of changing forms mid-action and takes less than a second to do so; since it takes less than a Full Phase action to change, he's not really an OIHID. Captain Marvel is a better example.


Maybe in your campaign. Yet virtually every conversion I've seen of him has OIHID.




Of course, you don't need to go anywhere near that far to make OIHID a limitation. If the only ways you can think of to limit OIHID are combat-related, your lack of imagination is the problem, not OIHID. After all, I listed 3 example ways of preventing the change to a Hero ID, none of which required the PC being unconcious.

You also still haven't addressed the fact that OIHID should have a way of preventing the change.


I love the way people make statements about "lack of imagination" when they disagree with someone. :rolleyes:

[Gary]

You rolled an 18 to hit. Adjudicate the results. You missed with to hit rolls 4, 9 and 14. Adjudicate where the stray energy blasts went. There's lots of rolls which require adjudication. A few more are not going to trash the game. The flier might well have ben hit for knockback from three different angles in the fight. Adjudication ofhow much knockback translates into upward motion, how much to lateral, and what happens the next segment also takes time.


I'm not making 18 attack rolls in sequence in noncombat time. If I'm flying around the city, I will make 18 or more activation rolls in sequence. Big huge difference when dealing with how the game bogs down.




As for the cross country trip, I would expect a character with flight on an activation roll to use it for short bursts only. Flying cross-country seems something a limitation of this nature inherently prevents.

If you really want to play it out... The character has to travel for 20 minutes and his Flight acts 14-? Well, 20/0.8 = 25, so it takes him 25 minutes. Once he gets high enough that a fail only results in loss of travel time (and a bit of altitude), life goes on. [BTW, most characters I see with flight on activation have a few base inches, plus bonus speed on activation, much like OIHID characters have some defenses in their base form, and a bunch more which activate when they switch forms.]


I'd like to see that if you're in space on an asteroid run like the Millenium Falcon in Empire Strikes Back.

[Gary]

Mental powers, to put it in context...



12d6 hits a normal ego target for an average of 42, achieving a +20 effect with -2 to the breakout roll (9-). This is sufficient to swap your team with his team using mental illusions. Most 350 point villain teams have a member or two who are of normal ego with no mental defenses.

A 75 point multipower can support a 12d6 1/2 END mind control and a 10d6 1/2 END Cumulative mind control. 60 points pof effect can handle most targets fairly readily, although you now need two shots, on average, to get there.

If you're in one of those games where everyone buys defenses to everything because no one can stand having an Achilles' heel, I think you have left the Supers genre.


I firmly disagree. It's a question of scaling. At the 60 pt attack level, it's ok to have no mental defense. You have a decent chance of breaking out, and the opposition probably has to use more subtle effects to zap you.

When attacks are 100 pts, you're going to be a puppet vs the first mentallist you see. He can have you attack your teammates, or turn off your defenses and shoot yourself in the head fairly easily with very little chance of an ordinary character resisting. And if you're dealing with a 150 pt mentallist, forget it. Why bother adventuring at all if you don't have the proper defenses?

It's like the fact that some supers can get away with no resistant defenses or maybe just a little kevlar/combat luck when attacks are low. But when the attackers are throwing around 10d6 RKA's, you'd better have a buttload of resistant defenses or else you might as well not bother getting out of bed.

[Gary]

Incidentally, one very effective character building trick I know of is to buy the base level mental defense to help against Ego Blasts. Then you buy a bunch of 2 pt skill levels with Ego rolls. Now you're spending 2 pts to get the same effect that you would otherwise need 5 pts of mental defense for. +5 to your Ego Rolls costs 10 pts, and it's usually wildly more effective than buying +10 MD. The only time it wouldn't be more effective is if that 10 pts would've made the difference in whether or not the mentallist gets an effect on you in the first place.

[Netzilla]

Am I contradicting you? I was merely stating a point.

So it sounds to me like you're admitting to making a non sequitur. Okay.


Maybe in your campaign. Yet virtually every conversion I've seen of him has OIHID.

Not in my campaign, by the book. The book requires a minimum of a Full Phase Action (which Colossus violates) and/or a way of preventing the change (which Colossus also violates). Therefore, it's hardly unique to my campaign like you imply.

That other people have chosen to misapply OIHID does not support your claim that OIHID is broken. It supports the claim that some players misapply the Limitation, and perhaps it could be written clearer in the rules (not that I agree that it needs to be rewritten), but that's about it. OIHID, when enforced by the rules in the book, is a legit limitation.


I love the way people make statements about "lack of imagination" when they disagree with someone. :rolleyes:

I gave you 3 examples of how OIHID can prevent a character from changing IDs without said character being killed or KOed without a chance to act and did not involve combat. You responded with yet another combat-oriented example suggesting that a OK/Kill was routinely the only way to stop many (if not most) OIHID constructs. That was the basis for my 'lack of imagination' comment.

If you feel it was unjustified, feel free to prove it such by coming up with a legitimate (i.e. book legal) use of OIHID in which the KO/Kill is the only way to make it limiting.

[OddHat]

Incidentally, one very effective character building trick I know of is to buy the base level mental defense to help against Ego Blasts. Then you buy a bunch of 2 pt skill levels with Ego rolls. Now you're spending 2 pts to get the same effect that you would otherwise need 5 pts of mental defense for. +5 to your Ego Rolls costs 10 pts, and it's usually wildly more effective than buying +10 MD. The only time it wouldn't be more effective is if that 10 pts would've made the difference in whether or not the mentallist gets an effect on you in the first place.

Very cool effect. :)

I'd require the 2 point levels to be defined for a specific use (Breakout Rolls Only or some such), but it looks very effective.

[Sean Waters]

Very cool effect. :)

I'd require the 2 point levels to be defined for a specific use (Breakout Rolls Only or some such), but it looks very effective.


It is, until the Monkey Psychic buys 2 point levels with his Ego Blast too. As a general defence to mental attack though, it is far more effective than mental defence.

Well worth looking at too, and often forgotten, is damage resistance to mental. It doesn't just reduce the damage from Ego Blast, but reduces all mental power effects. Probably only worth it if psychics are a real problem, but you'll never be MC'd at the +20 or +30 level again, even when you do run into a 20d6 mind control...

Can I also mention, just from the roleplaying angle, one use we put Hero ID to. Fortress used to be the world's most powerful man, about 40 years ago, then he got a heart condition and...

He is a normal who turns into a superman with 3/4 of his points spent in OIHID. I was running the game and built all the characters, so no one was munchkining. Well, except me, and I was the GM so that was OK.

Anyway, during a particularly strenuous battle, Fortress has a heart attack and saves himself by turning back to human form. Took weeks before he had the courage to turn back into Fortress to see if he would live...now that was worth the points all on its own.

[Hugh Neilson]

Then you buy a bunch of 2 pt skill levels with Ego rolls. Now you're spending 2 pts to get the same effect that you would otherwise need 5 pts of mental defense for. +5 to your Ego Rolls costs 10 pts, and it's usually wildly more effective than buying +10 MD. The only time it wouldn't be more effective is if that 10 pts would've made the difference in whether or not the mentallist gets an effect on you in the first place.

Unless I've misread your intent, these would be 3 point levels (2 point levels are for OCV only, with one attack IIRC). Maybe you're pulling these as Penalty Skill Levels?

Still, 3 points remains a decent deal (although, as you say, no extra defense against the initial effect, or the Ego Atack).

From a gamist perspective, if these were common IMC, I'd shoot for +30 effects. Since your breakout roll will be the same either way, I may as well get you in a really compromising position.

[Hugh Neilson]

When attacks are 100 pts, you're going to be a puppet vs the first mentallist you see. He can have you attack your teammates, or turn off your defenses and shoot yourself in the head fairly easily with very little chance of an ordinary character resisting. And if you're dealing with a 150 pt mentallist, forget it. Why bother adventuring at all if you don't have the proper defenses?

Yeah, I don't kjnow why Superman gets out of bed in the morning, what with the Kryptonite thing, and Magic cutting right through his defenses. He's really not qualified to adventure.


It's like the fact that some supers can get away with no resistant defenses or maybe just a little kevlar/combat luck when attacks are low. But when the attackers are throwing around 10d6 RKA's, you'd better have a buttload of resistant defenses or else you might as well not bother getting out of bed.

This comes down to campaign style, more than anything else. If you routinely throw around 10d6 KA's, players are forced to defend themselves (ie buy rDEF) or die. Realistically, this is the case in Champs now - you never see a character without some resistant defenses.

If having a weakness means it is constantly exploited making your character generally ineffective, no one will have a character with a weakness. When it goes from "an interesting flaw which sometimes causes problems" to "the character will be useless pretty much every time", it can simply be written out of the game. I'd rather keep things reasonable, and see a wide variety of characters. My character may be especially vulnerable to mentalists (10 ego, no def), but he has less vulnerable teammates who are more vulnerable in other areas. And my character's flash can hold that enemy mentalist off for a bit in many cases.

[Sean Waters]

I'd assumed the levels were being bought for EDCV, so they'd have to be 3 pointers with say, Ego attack, Mind Control and Mental Illusions. Worth it for the EDCV even if you don't have those powers. Or youcould use 5 pointers and add appropriate limitations (14- activation, costs END, OIHID....)

[Gary]

So it sounds to me like you're admitting to making a non sequitur. Okay.


No, just reinforcing the point that some OIHID can be aborted to.




Not in my campaign, by the book. The book requires a minimum of a Full Phase Action (which Colossus violates) and/or a way of preventing the change (which Colossus also violates). Therefore, it's hardly unique to my campaign like you imply.

That other people have chosen to misapply OIHID does not support your claim that OIHID is broken. It supports the claim that some players misapply the Limitation, and perhaps it could be written clearer in the rules (not that I agree that it needs to be rewritten), but that's about it. OIHID, when enforced by the rules in the book, is a legit limitation.


Assume a Colossus where he takes a full phase to change.





I gave you 3 examples of how OIHID can prevent a character from changing IDs without said character being killed or KOed without a chance to act and did not involve combat. You responded with yet another combat-oriented example suggesting that a OK/Kill was routinely the only way to stop many (if not most) OIHID constructs. That was the basis for my 'lack of imagination' comment.

If you feel it was unjustified, feel free to prove it such by coming up with a legitimate (i.e. book legal) use of OIHID in which the KO/Kill is the only way to make it limiting.


You're reading the rules wrong. OIHID says specifically at least Full Phase and/or other ways of preventing the change.

So Colossus could be book legal if the player declares that he can't change in Intense Electromagnetic Fields. Whether the GM allows it is a different story.

[JmOz]

Mental is also a tougher issue under the genre. Virtually every team with a telepath seems to gradually "train" its members to resist mental attacks. Is there an X-Men with no mental defense?



Superman (pretty high as points go, IMO) is vulnerable to mental attacks, and even more so to magical attacks. I suggest a relatively low-powered magic-based character should also generally clean Supes' clock. IMO, there's nothing inherently wrong with a 750 point character being taken to the cleaners by a 350 point character which take advantage of the Big Guy's weaknesses. But if we put 5 of those 350 point characters up against 5 of the 750 pointers, the outcome will never be in doubt. We can double the 350 pointers and still see little challenge.

"Lunar Centurians" leads me to think JLA big guns. A 350 point wizard can likely clock Superman, and 350 points of fire powers will put paid to J'onn. But Supes and J'onn vs. Wizard and Flamethrower? No contest.


This is very true. It's also hard for the hero to break free of domination because it's dramatically appropriate, instead of because he made a lucky roll.

If every area of weakness is attacked by the GM on a near-constant basis, players will not wish to leave an area of weakness to be exploited. If, on the other hand, weaknesses only come up infrequently, the player does not feel crippled by his lack of, say, mental or flash defense, and is more willing to leave that chink in the character's armour.

A few things:

yes they are a JLA type team (At least the lunar is, most of the others are more Avengers like).

Okay, on the Superman vs Mental/Magical thing, The whole point of both is he is like a normal human vs Magic (Bypasses his invulnerability...SOMETIMES), also with Mental powers it is more of a "Not Invulnerable" instead of a true weakness...just being anal

I was actualy refrencing 250 point characters (Characters built on 1/3 the points)...Me still being anal

I agree that characters should be effected by the normal attacks they will encounter, however I do feel that The more points you have the better your general defences should be all around. Let me use an example and see if it makes more sense what I am getting at, three different power levels:

Street Champions: Characters are built on 250 points, deal with a mixture of street crime & super villains, super powers are allowed

DEF (rDEF)
PD/ED: 10-20 (5-10)
Flash Defence: Sight 0-10
Flash Defence: Other 0-5
Pow Defence 0-5
LoW: 0-5
MD: 0-10

Champions: The characters are built on 350 points, and will be responcible for keeping a city, it's surrounding area safe, occasional International stories. Deal with mostly Super Villains

PD/ED: 15-25 (5-15)
Flash Defence: Sight 0-10
Flash Defence: Other 0-5
Pow Defence 0-10
LoW: 0-10
MD: 5-15

Cosmic Champions: You are the worlds A Team, you will be fighting the worse of the worse. Mega Villains and world beaters daily. Character will be 600 points

PD/ED: 20-45 (15-25)
Flash Defence: Sight 10-25
Flash Defence: Other 5-15
Pow Defence 5-15
LoW: 5-15
MD: 5-20

Now of cource Mr Brick will be higher in PD/ED, as will the mentalist in MD, or what have you but as a general character guidelines there you go. Will a lower powered character still be able to effect them, sure, but a small time mentalist will not control Mr Hero either (But another hero could)

[Gary]

Unless I've misread your intent, these would be 3 point levels (2 point levels are for OCV only, with one attack IIRC). Maybe you're pulling these as Penalty Skill Levels?

Still, 3 points remains a decent deal (although, as you say, no extra defense against the initial effect, or the Ego Atack).

From a gamist perspective, if these were common IMC, I'd shoot for +30 effects. Since your breakout roll will be the same either way, I may as well get you in a really compromising position.


Page 49 specifically states that 2 pt skill levels can apply to characteristic rolls.

[Gary]

It is, until the Monkey Psychic buys 2 point levels with his Ego Blast too. As a general defence to mental attack though, it is far more effective than mental defence.


Not DECV. Just actual bonuses to Ego Roll. So your 13 Ego character with +5 to Ego rolls for 10 pts would have a 17- on Breakout attempts, making it ridiculously easy to break most mental effects.