A stunning attack

[Sean Waters]

Someone was asking how to do an attack that stunned a target but didn't necessarily do much or any actual damage. Can't find the thread now, but just thought of this: use dispel STUN.

Dispel won't be permanent damage (it comes back instantly), it is really cheap AND for stunning purposes, it makes no difference how you lose the STUN, if it exceeds your CON you suffer the effects of STUN.

Question, then. If I dispel enough stun to put someone on negative stun do they fall over unconscious and then instantly recover i.e. would such an attack make them stunned AND prone?

If your END total was higher than your STUN total when you were KO'd, would END now =STUN as it does when you normally recover from unconsciousness?

[Andrew Cermak]

According to FRED, Characteristics can't be Dispelled. Suppress with a Limitation to reflect the quick recovery would get you similar results, though.

[Vorsch]

Its also metagaming, rules for the sake of rules.

[bblackmoor]

Its also metagaming, rules for the sake of rules.

When when I want to reduce the target's Stun, I use an Energy Blast (PD, Stun Only). One of my gaming mottos is, "When in doubt, use the simplest mechanic to approximate the effect you are looking for."

[Hugh Neilson]

I agree a Stun only EB is the easiest way to reduce STUN. However, that's not the effect of the desired power. The attack as I read it is supposed to Stun, but not cause Stun damage. This is a mechanic the system has never really been geared up to do. I see a few approaches:

(a) Use Dispel Stun, regardless of what the rules say. The Stun vanishes momentarily, then instantly returns. Since we're handwaving the "can't dispel a characteristic" rule anyway, also handwave that the Dispel can cause a target to be Stunned, but not KO'd. The problem with this approach is that Dispel is all or nothing, and you don't need to KO a target to Stun him.

(b) Use Suppress Stun, with the limitation that the effect is instantaneous (ie the user cannot maintain the Suppress, and the Stun flcikers and returns as part of the attack) nor can the target be KO'd, only Stunned (I'd call that about -1/2 - comments?). If appropriate, the attack could also Affect PD (or ED) rather than Power Defense, for a further limitation (is that a -1? Should be -1 1/2 to parallel AVLD, but -1 rings a bell and seems reasonable). Result: 5/2.5 = 2 RP, 5 AP per d6. [3.33 RP, 5 AP if vs power defense]

(c) Use an EB limited to do no BOD (-1/4), and inflict Stun only for the purpose of Stunning the target (call that -3/4). To simulate the Suppress, it should be unable to Spread (-1/4). That's 5 AP/2.25 = 2.22 RP points per die. I'd be happier if someone could come up with another -1/4 somewhere (ideally, this should have the same cost as the Suppress approach), but the costs are very similar. To work against power defense, this one costs 7.5 AP, 3.33 RP per die, a perfect RP match but higher AP. That seems to bear out -1 for "vs PD".

I think I'd use the Suppress, as the mechanic seems closer to the desired result (especially with immedioate recovery when shut off), but the EB approach would also be reasonable. I would be reluctant to allow any approach which reduces the AP below 5 per die, since the ability to Stun a target, while more limited than a typical attack, is still powerful, and wuld be overpowered if, say, 20d6 (60 AP/3) were the normal level of attack.

[sbarron]

I agree a Stun only EB is the easiest way to reduce STUN. However, that's not the effect of the desired power. The attack as I read it is supposed to Stun, but not cause Stun damage. Stunning your opponent in Hero is a very specific game mechanic. In real life, stunning an opponent could mean a lot of things. So trying to model a "stunning attack," in the the sense of the Hero game mechanism, is metagaming.

I guess if you wanted to model an attack that causes a character to lose a phase, reduces his DCV by 1/2, and doesn't allow a recovery that phase, you could model something close to that with a SPD Drain, REC drain, and penanlty skill levels UAO, or some other mechanic I'm sure someone could cook up.

But I agree with Vorsch, using "stunning" in the Hero sense isn't a valid power description. What is the effect, not using mechanical system terms? Answer that and we'll be on the right track.

[Sean Waters]

(c) Use an EB limited to do no BOD (-1/4), and inflict Stun only for the purpose of Stunning the target (call that -3/4). To simulate the Suppress, it should be unable to Spread (-1/4). That's 5 AP/2.25 = 2.22 RP points per die. I'd be happier if someone could come up with another -1/4 somewhere (ideally, this should have the same cost as the Suppress approach), but the costs are very similar.

No KB (-1/4)would do that for you, or Can't be pushed.

Good suggestions BTW. I think the supress is the way to go too, unless someone is going to tell me you can't supress characteristics. I don't have FRED with me...

Stunning someone is a potential show-stopper, especially if there's a team mate to follow up with a haymaker before the next phase...

I do have a problem with the 3-point per dice powers that have proliferated in 5th ed. I would rather see all 'per dice' powers have a base of 5 points and take limitations even if that is a bit artificial, otherwise some advantages are far too useful for their active point totals.

[Hyper-Man]

Stunning your opponent in Hero is a very specific game mechanic. In real life, stunning an opponent could mean a lot of things. So trying to model a "stunning attack," in the the sense of the Hero game mechanism, is metagaming.

I guess if you wanted to model an attack that causes a character to lose a phase, reduces his DCV by 1/2, and doesn't allow a recovery that phase, you could model something close to that with a SPD Drain, REC drain, and penanlty skill levels UAO, or some other mechanic I'm sure someone could cook up.

But I agree with Vorsch, using "stunning" in the Hero sense isn't a valid power description. What is the effect, not using mechanical system terms? Answer that and we'll be on the right track.
I remember the thread where this idea first came up. The supress/dispell idea (I am pretty sure that they settled on a suppress vs. stun) was a solution to modelling a device that worked something like a prison control collar. It could be activated and bring you to your knees but as soon as it was turned off you had no lingering effects. In that particular case I do not believe there was any meta-gaming involved since a GM started the thread.

[Hugh Neilson]

Stunning your opponent in Hero is a very specific game mechanic. In real life, stunning an opponent could mean a lot of things. So trying to model a "stunning attack," in the the sense of the Hero game mechanism, is metagaming.

I guess if you wanted to model an attack that causes a character to lose a phase, reduces his DCV by 1/2, and doesn't allow a recovery that phase, you could model something close to that with a SPD Drain, REC drain, and penanlty skill levels UAO, or some other mechanic I'm sure someone could cook up.

But I agree with Vorsch, using "stunning" in the Hero sense isn't a valid power description. What is the effect, not using mechanical system terms? Answer that and we'll be on the right track.

The mechanics make the power, so I have been proceeding from the assumption that the SFX justify this effect. An appropriate power which would have this effect...

- A magic spell which fazes or confuses the target so they hesitate without any lasting harm. Individuals with faster reaction times will shake the effects off more rapidly than others (ie they only lose 1 phase, so high spoeed mitigates the duration). [This should probably be vs mental defense.]

- A gaseous toxin which has short-term effects, and dissipates quickly (the target will hack and cough for a few seconds, then be basically unaffected - hence, the target loses a phase to clear the gas from his lungs, during which he is unable to concentrate on other actions). [Characters with life support should be immune.]

- A dazzling beam of energy which affects the centers of the brain controlling balance and perception, on a purely short-term basis. The character recovers after a phase. [Should be against ED, or perhaps Flash Defense; make it subsonic, area affect and continuous, instead of a dazzling light burst, and we have DC's Count Vertigo]

- a SuperSkill which startles the target, forcing him off-guard and distracting his focus from maintaining defenses (ie his non-persistent powers shut down).

- a drowsiness attack, to similar effect.

I'm sure lots of other examples could be suggested. Entire groups of characters being briefly stunned with no lasting effects seems reasonably common in the comics.

hmmm...another possible mechanic - make the power PRE, only useable for PRE attacks (-1/2), only works to cause target to hesitate or lose 1 phase (call it another -1/2) and Costs END (for consistency with the constructs bove; -1/2). It's resisted by strength of will (Ego) or coolness under fire (PRE).

5/2.5 = 2 RP per die

Make it AVLD (+3/4) only vs Ego (instead of the greater of Ego and PRE). Now we have a "stunning" atack which is resisted only by force of will.

5 x 1.75/2.5 = 3.5 RP per die.

It should actually cost a half phase and be considered an attack action, which would further reduce the RP (reasonably, another -1/2 limitation). That makes it 1.67 per die, or 2.92 oer die if it only affects Ego. 5 AP per die, or 8.75 only affecting EGO.

Of course, this one won't have all the effects of Stunning (eg. the target isn't forced to shut down non-persistent powers). We could simulate that with a Linked dispel, I suppose, but now it's getting very kludgy.

Mind Control, one telepathic command (Shut down your powers and hesitate) could also work. It would need to be limited to have no ongoing effect, so the cost per die would probably be similar to the other constructs, more so if it's also made Visible and given normal; range modifiers, and especially if changed to act vs. PD or ED.

[Hugh Neilson]

I do have a problem with the 3-point per dice powers that have proliferated in 5th ed. I would rather see all 'per dice' powers have a base of 5 points and take limitations even if that is a bit artificial, otherwise some advantages are far too useful for their active point totals.

Especially when most seem easy to get around. Make Dispel a -1/2 limitation on Suppress (like Hand Attack is a -1/2 limitation). Flash can cost 5 points per die, with a -1/2 limitation if it only affects a non-targeting sense. Make the limitation -3/4 if you prefer (-1/2 is 3.33 per die; -1/4 is 2.86 per die). This maintains 1 DC at 5 AP.

[I WHO AM HE]

:nonp: For this, I opted for an EB, does no body, stun damage lasts for till target's next phase (-1).

[Sean Waters]

I'm not sure using the rules to build an attack that stuns without damage is metagaming any more than building it with mind control, a convoluted series of drains and supresses or any other way. You are taking advantage of the rules, but not necessarily in an abusive way. Stunning is an effect you can acheive in combat by hitting someone hard enough anyway, so there are various powers that already have this effect.

Like I said earlier, stunning can be a show stopper, but if the power level is reasonable for the campaign and it costs a reasonable number of points and has an appropriate defence, it isn't getting behind the scenery of the game.

Hugh Neilson came up with a number of perfectly reasonable sfx for which this effect would be ideal. It is, after all, the Hero system way of simulating someone being momentarily rattled and dazed. It seems daft to try and cobble together some other way of creating an effect that everyone understands the mechanics of.

Metagaming is just taking advantage of a rule to give you an unusually effective power/effect, so...

Checklist:

1. Is the power or effect an unreasonable one? I don't think so, so long as you have a reasonable explanation.
2. Are you getting it far too cheap? Probably not, but depends how you build it. The dispel stun I suggested at the start wouldn't have passed this test, but some of the other suggestions do.
3. Is the effect disproportionate to the active points? No, depending on how you build it again - see 2. above.

The final proof is in the playing though. I have done this previously with an EGO attack which was half 'normal' and half 'only for stunning' - the sfx being it was a jolt of pleasure (best not to ask....). Worked pretty well, but then it was a GM character, so it would, wouldn't it?

Why not play test it? Stick a villain with this power in your next dust up and see if the heroes get taken to the cleaners. Let me know.

[bblackmoor]

:nonp: For this, I opted for an EB, does no body, stun damage lasts for till target's next phase (-1).

I think that is the most straightforward way to mechanically represent what most people in this thread are describing. I would say "damage lasts until target's next Rocovery", though (a subtle but distinct difference).

You could probably work up a parallel construction using various amounts of Entangle, Flash, and NNDs, but I think that would be indulging in complexity for its own sake.

[bblackmoor]

It seems daft to try and cobble together some other way of creating an effect that everyone understands the mechanics of.

Agreed: it is simpler and less convoluted to simply do enough Stun damage to "stun" the target. There's no profit in creating convoluted constructions.

[Sean Waters]

Agreed: it is simpler and less convoluted to simply do enough Stun damage to "stun" the target. There's no profit in creating convoluted constructions.

You are right: we should scrap all these messy advantages and limitations altogether.

[dbsousa]

If you are reasoning from effect, a target that is "stunned" is incapable of action for an indeterminate period of time (X), correct?

This could be:

A large PRE attack,
An Invisible or Mental Entangle that only lasts X.
A SPD Drain

[bblackmoor]

You are right: we should scrap all these messy advantages and limitations altogether.

Most of them have their uses, but it does seem daft to try and cobble together some other way of creating an existing effect that everyone already understands.

[Rapier]

The distinction for me was in the way it was presented "I want an attack that will Stun someone without doing damage." My short answer was No. That is pure meta-gaming and takes advantage of rules, similar to someone wanting to build an attack 'that causes bleeding.'

If someone comes to me and says, "I want an attack that will so disrupt the person that they will lose an action" its a different kettle of fish entirely.

Depending of the SFX of the power, this could be anything from a small Entangle, a STUN Suppress, a Mind Control, a DEX Drain or any of a number of other things.

My problem is when a player comes to me with a concept from the backend and tries to reverse engineer it. That is one of the warning flags that goes up for a kludgy character concept.

[WhammeWhamme]

The distinction for me was in the way it was presented "I want an attack that will Stun someone without doing damage." My short answer was No. That is pure meta-gaming and takes advantage of rules, similar to someone wanting to build an attack 'that causes bleeding.'

If someone comes to me and says, "I want an attack that will so disrupt the person that they will lose an action" its a different kettle of fish entirely.

Depending of the SFX of the power, this could be anything from a small Entangle, a STUN Suppress, a Mind Control, a DEX Drain or any of a number of other things.

My problem is when a player comes to me with a concept from the backend and tries to reverse engineer it. That is one of the warning flags that goes up for a kludgy character concept.

How bout "I want an attack that will stun an opponent"?
(lower case S)

It then turns out that what they want is something that disrupts what they're doing, causes pain temporarily, makes them unable to react (/dodge - only allows them defenses based on Armour)... but, on it's own, could NEVER KO or kill someone?

(like, y'know, Stun effects in D&D - sometimes, I wanna convert. For example, I've often thought my 12th level Sorceror would make an interesting Superhero...)

[bblackmoor]

It then turns out that what they want is something that disrupts what they're doing, causes pain ... but, on it's own, could NEVER KO

You can't hurt someone ("causes pain") and not hurt them ("never KO"). Pick one. If the attack causes pain, and impairs the target for that reason, then it's pretty clearly inflicting Stun on them, which probably means an Energy Blast, with appropriate modifiers. If it impairs them without causing pain or otherwise moving them toward unconsciousness, you're probably talking about a Flash and/or Entangle, with appropriate modifiers.

You're way overcomplicating this. I think the single greatest weakness of Hero System is a consequence of its greatest strength: it encourages people to build Rube Goldberg engines.

[WhammeWhamme]

You can't hurt someone ("causes pain") and not hurt them ("never KO"). Pick one. If the attack causes pain, and impairs the target for that reason, then it's pretty clearly inflicting Stun on them, which probably means an Energy Blast, with appropriate modifiers. If it impairs them without causing pain or otherwise moving them toward unconsciousness, you're probably talking about a Flash and/or Entangle, with appropriate modifiers.

You're way overcomplicating this. I think the single greatest weakness of Hero System is a consequence of its greatest strength: it encourages people to build Rube Goldberg engines.

But STUN isn't Pain. There's RL cases of people who literally feel no pain - but a blow to the head (forex) can still cause them to fall unconscious.

STUN is non-permanent harm, like winding, or bruising.

Flash doesn't work, because they can still (forex) keep attacking - they just can't see.

Entangle doesn't work either - should be based on CON, not STR. And especially not on Damage Shield or Energy Blast.

EB is in appropriate - it causes no harm.


I think the best tack is actually "Mind Control - One Command, Based on CON'.

[bblackmoor]

But STUN isn't Pain. There's RL cases of people who literally feel no pain...

Now you're just being silly. It may be that these people are exactly what the authors had in mind when coming up with the stats for Champions, but I doubt it.

For the vast majority of cases, Stun = pain.

[WhammeWhamme]

Now you're just being silly. It may be that these people are exactly what the authors had in mind when coming up with the stats for Champions, but I doubt it.

For the vast majority of cases, Stun = pain.

Stun damage, in HERO, is something that eventually causes you to fall unconscious, and may do so temporarily if done powerfully enough.

"Sleep Spells" have been defined as STUN damage.

Stun = Pain only insofar as being hit hard enough to knock you out (eventually) HURTS.

[bblackmoor]

"Sleep Spells" have been defined as STUN damage.

And? "For the vast majority of cases" means that there are exceptions.

This is reminding me of the absurd "Champions can't be used to create speedsters" thread that used to pop up on rec.games.frp.super-heroes from time to time. Approximating a taser or "Daze" spell in H5 does not have to be complicated, unless complexity for its own sake is what you are actually after.

[WhammeWhamme]

And? "For the vast majority of cases" means that there are exceptions.

This is reminding me of the absurd "Champions can't be used to create speedsters" thread that used to pop up on rec.games.frp.super-heroes from time to time. Approximating a taser or "Daze" spell in H5 is not difficult: we have been doing it for years. You are intentionally making it difficult. You just want to argue.

In the "vast majority of cases" STUN damage and Pain are _both_ inflicted. Generally there's BODY and Knockback along for the ride too, as well as impact, the visual SFX and about a thousand other things.

STUN =/= Pain. It is possible to inflict painless STUN, and it is possible to inflict STUNless pain. This is HERO. Pain is not linked to any one aspect of the game. The SFX rule.

Daze is not difficult, no effect is... but _exactly_ how you want it to work will dictate the mechanic:

Stun Only EB: "It only makes sense lots of copies could KO you!"
Flash: "The world goes white with pain... A skilled fighter, or one who relies not on the sight of mortals can overcome this..."
Entangle: "Unable to move, you msut stand there and be smote... unless, in Heroic Barbarian style, you can rip free.... or, in bastardly wizard style, you can overcome it with magic of your own...."
CON Based Mind Control: "Unless you are one Tough Bastard, or have a truly pressing, overriding concern... the pain will overwhelm you, and you will freeze up, unable to to will action or life unto your body...."

Or, lightning bolt:

Superheroic/Cinematic: EB
Fantasyesque/Lethal: RKA
Shazamic: Transform, or SFX of Multiform or the like
Charging Up: Aid
Dramatic Effect: Aid to PRE
Blinding: Flash

[I WHO AM HE]

Entangle doesn't work.
Flash doesn't work.
Transform is way overdone.
Speed drain works partially
Pre Attack does not work (senator resists the sys shock, but the brick fails)
MC is clunky - (brick is stunned, the egoist is fine)
Suppress does not effect stun.
Char dmg does not take effect before damage does

Pain is a special effect only (stat loss, stunning, nnd, avld,...)

DMG that heals in 1 phase or is only good to produce a stun effects seems to truly capture the desired effect, of stunning the target.

The mechanism used to represent stunning in the hero system happens to (naturally) simulate the desired effect. Is it meta-gaming to build a power aimed at catching the appropriate flavor - a mechanic that is named after the effect you desire?

If you oppose this construct, is it that:
1) You do not think any form of attack should represent this type of system shock? That you can not comprehend an effect that causes stunning such as this?

2) You believe it to be meta-gaming, legal but against the grain of intention.

3) You feel it is simply too powerful and so disallow.
:nonp:

[bblackmoor]

The mechanism used to represent stunning in the hero system happens to (naturally) simulate the desired effect.

Yes, and that mechanic is (surprise) doing Stun to the target.


If you oppose this construct, is it that:

That would depend on who you are asking, and what construct you are referring to.

[Hugh Neilson]

This is reminding me of the absurd "Champions can't be used to create speedsters" thread that used to pop up on rec.games.frp.super-heroes from time to time. Approximating a taser or "Daze" spell in H5 does not have to be complicated, unless complexity for its own sake is what you are actually after.

That's one more good example (I think the taser does Stun damage), and a reminder of another. "My speedser spins him around so fast he becomes dizzy. He's not hurt, but it will require a phase to recover his bearings and be able to act again."

[I WHO AM HE]

Yes, and that mechanic is (surprise) doing Stun to the target.

Actually, the mechanic I speak of are the results of being stunned. Normally you are damaged in order to be stunned - but their are conditions in which you could be stunned without being harmed or knocked out. To simulate being stunned - it is most easy to do so by stunning the target w/out damage.


That would depend on who you are asking, and what construct you are referring to

You, actually. My terminology may be off (I'm 3rd converting to 5th), but by construct I refer to an EB with a limit of 0 body, stun recovers in 1 phase, or does damage only for stunning.

So, what is your core disagreement with this concept?

:nonp:

[bblackmoor]

by construct I refer to an EB with a limit of 0 body, stun recovers in 1 phase,

"Stun Only" isn't a limitation (or if it is, it's a -0 limitation). And I'd phrase it as "damage lasts until the target's next recovery". Other than that, I think what you have there seems a pretty straightforward way to create the power that Whamme wants.

[bblackmoor]

"My speedser spins him around so fast he becomes dizzy. He's not hurt, but it will require a phase to recover his bearings and be able to act again."

Can't see straight? OCV and DCV affected? Sounds like Flash to me (no pun intended).

[I WHO AM HE]

Can't see straight? OCV and DCV affected? Sounds like Flash to me (no pun intended).

But a flash creates a situation were the target, while suffering OCV & DCV penalty, can still toss grenades with impunity. For a dizzy fellow, he still functions fine. He can activate his OIF Jet pack and fly straight up, turn on various powers (desolid, teleport, darkness, invis,...).

So - flash creates a situation in which the fellow can not see (or hear, or whatever), not one that makes him dizzy and stops him from activating the doomsday-deathto your NPC-(candy like) red button remote in his hand.

This would be a job for (drum roll) stunning!

[WhammeWhamme]

Can't see straight? OCV and DCV affected? Sounds like Flash to me (no pun intended).

Not 'ta me... "can't act" is another twist (punned) to it. Even with Sight Flashed, it's possible to act. And also, exotic sense can over come this.

No, it needs to be a "knocked prone" type power. Probably just a martial maneuver, actually.

[WhammeWhamme]

"Stun Only" isn't a limitation (or if it is, it's a -0 limitation). And I'd phrase it as "damage lasts until the target's next recovery". Other than that, I think what you have there seems a pretty straightforward way to create the power that Whamme wants.

O' course, Daze isn't stopped (or _affected_) by Armour, or Energy Resistances. It actually needs to be a NND effect, I guess (vs Immunity to Stun affects)....

This is all horribly expensive...

[Rapier]

How bout "I want an attack that will stun an opponent"?
(lower case S)
EB NND.

That's not a problem. Like I said, it's when the player guns for a metarule that I have problems. My example: "I want a power the causes Bleeding."

No. You can't have a power that causes Bleeding. BUT if you wanted an attack that caused BODY damage every phase...that's another thing entire (1d6 Continuous, Penetrating RKA).

[Hyper-Man]

I've been following the conversation silently for a while and I still don't understand why a Suppress is not the most simple way to go?

Assuming 60 active points:
Suppress 12d6 vs. Stun, As soon as you stop paying END the target recovers ALL Suppressed Stun as well as END lost due to being Knocked Out (-0) [6 End]

This is not abusive IMO and it is functionally just like an AVLD vs. Power Defense that averages 42 Stun. A Stun only attack would cost the same but has to overcome the normaly higher PD/ED defenses without application of NND or ALVD.

EDIT, here is the FAQ information:


Q: Can a character Drain, Transfer, or otherwise apply Adjustment Powers to Skills, Perks, or Talents?

A: There’s no specific rule against that, but it should only be allowed with the GM’s permission. The potential for abuse and loss of game balance is significant.

Q: What happens to a character who is Drained/Suppressed/Transferred to 0 STUN?

A: A character Drained/Transferred/Suppressed to 0 STUN or below is Knocked Out. His non-Persistent Powers stop working at the end of the Segment, and his END drops to 0.

He only regains Drained/Transferred STUN at the rate bought for the power (he doesn’t take Recoveries or apply his REC, in other words). He regains END at the same rate.
He only regains Suppressed STUN when the attacker stops maintaining the Suppress, but at that point regains all of it, and all of his END, instantly.


HM

[Hugh Neilson]

I agree the Stun suppress is the easiest approach. It needs a tweak in that the power can't be maintained. What about a further limitation "maximum suppressed = target's CON + 1". That virtually guarantees a KO cannot be achieved (how many characters have CON > STUN?), so we get the full desired effect.

Now we just need to value the limitations.

[Aside to bblackmoor: "0 BOD" is a -0 limit, but no knockback, which should also apply if this is built with an EB, is -1/4.]

[Gary]

How about Entangle BOECV? A mental paralysis is terrifyingly difficult to get out of for most people, and it makes sense that a strong will can help shake off the effects faster than a weak will. You can tack on a limitation of anywhere from -1/2 to -1 to represent that the paralysis lasts for only 1 of the target's phases.

[Vorsch]

A attack that does 42 stun resisted by power def will drop all but Brick characters in one phase. Tactically this is very effective.

[Doc Democracy]

EB NND.

That's not a problem. Like I said, it's when the player guns for a metarule that I have problems. My example: "I want a power the causes Bleeding."

No. You can't have a power that causes Bleeding. BUT if you wanted an attack that caused BODY damage every phase...that's another thing entire (1d6 Continuous, Penetrating RKA).

Rapier I see where you are coming from with this but I would like to point out that your response is appropriate for someone who is good with Hero - with someone who is not, they simply want a power that causes bleeding and that is exactly what they should be telling you. You should then be translating that for them rather than saying no.

I'm sure you understand that - I just felt that it wasn't coming across.

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

A attack that does 42 stun resisted by power def will drop all but Brick characters in one phase. Tactically this is very effective.

This is a good point. Purchased as a 12d6 AVLD, we're talking 150 points (very powerful). A ranged 12d6 Drain would cost 180.

As an NND, 12d6 would cost 120 (now it's completely ineffective against power defense - those 30 points would be well spent).

But a Suppress costs only 60 for 12d6. Granted, you have to spend END to maintain it, but if he's KO'd, someone else can smack him for double STUN without any non-persistent defenses next phase, and you can then drop the Suppress. Even if all you do is suppress each enemy in turn for one phase, they have no END now. This would be a very powerful attack (and costs 6 oints in the typical swiss army multipower).

[Hugh Neilson]

But a flash creates a situation were the target, while suffering OCV & DCV penalty, can still toss grenades with impunity. For a dizzy fellow, he still functions fine. He can activate his OIF Jet pack and fly straight up, turn on various powers (desolid, teleport, darkness, invis,...).

So - flash creates a situation in which the fellow can not see (or hear, or whatever), not one that makes him dizzy and stops him from activating the doomsday-deathto your NPC-(candy like) red button remote in his hand.

This would be a job for (drum roll) stunning!

Thanks - saves me answering.

The fact is that Flash, or Entangle, or many of the other suggested constructs seem like very kludgy ways to do what some of these constructs really ought to do - Stun the target without causing impairment.

The guy spun round in circles can still detect what's going on around him. If he's not blind, how can he be flashed? He's not entangled - he doesn't need to break out, nor can he "escape" the lost phase. Neither high STR nor high EGO would generally assist in recovering from disorientation such as this.

Now, the better question may be how to build this power such that it can STun for more than one phase, but let's build the base power first. Adding an "uncontrolled continuous" with a declining effect to that base power, we should have a power that keeps the target disoriented (stunned) for a while. [Uncontrolled maybe being 0 END, shut off by the first failure to Stun, and declining in dice each phase.]

[Sean Waters]

12d6 Supress stun, instant (-1/2, FRED 185) Cost 40 RP (60 AP)

You hit someone with the supress. They take (on average) 42 Stun resisted by power defence. The target has, say 40 Stun left, CON 25 and 10 Power defence. They take 30 Stun which immediately returns. They are stunned (it doesn't matter how you lose the stun, or if you get it straight back for the effect to cut in).

If they were down to less than 30 stun they would be stunned and prone (because they were momentarily unconscious and so fall over), but able to act normally apart from that.

This does exactly what (some of us) are after, and uses powers and limitations straight from the book. The mechanics are simpler to apply than a normal attack. Anyone not happy? :)

[Sean Waters]

From the FAQ, posted by Hyper-Man, earlier:


Q: Can a character Drain, Transfer, or otherwise apply Adjustment Powers to Skills, Perks, or Talents?

A: There’s no specific rule against that, but it should only be allowed with the GM’s permission. The potential for abuse and loss of game balance is significant.



BWAHAHAHAHAHA! I drain the President's rank perk down so that all he has is an international driving licence!

[WhammeWhamme]

This is a good point. Purchased as a 12d6 AVLD, we're talking 150 points (very powerful). A ranged 12d6 Drain would cost 180.

As an NND, 12d6 would cost 120 (now it's completely ineffective against power defense - those 30 points would be well spent).

But a Suppress costs only 60 for 12d6. Granted, you have to spend END to maintain it, but if he's KO'd, someone else can smack him for double STUN without any non-persistent defenses next phase, and you can then drop the Suppress. Even if all you do is suppress each enemy in turn for one phase, they have no END now. This would be a very powerful attack (and costs 6 oints in the typical swiss army multipower).

1) Suppress STUN does _not_ leave them empty on END. It goes back to where it was before (as posted earlier)

2) What's wrong with Mind Control Based on CON - "Be Stunned"?

[Sean Waters]

1) Suppress STUN does _not_ leave them empty on END. It goes back to where it was before (as posted earlier)

2) What's wrong with Mind Control Based on CON - "Be Stunned"?


1) Agreed
2) Nothing, but it would then work against more common (and generally larger) defences than the supress option and would be open to interpretation: the target could just soliloquise, "Wow, that is utterly amazing" then act normally. What level would that be at, do you reckon?

I suppose the way you build it should depend on the effect you have in mind.

[Hugh Neilson]

1) Suppress STUN does _not_ leave them empty on END. It goes back to where it was before (as posted earlier)

If one is reduced below zero stun, the body immediately places all effort into recovering from the KO, and all END falls to zero. Do you have a reference that indicates being suppressed below 0 STUN will not have this effect?

Regardless, I would handwave it given the desired effect of the power (to achieve a Stun with no actual damage).


2) What's wrong with Mind Control Based on CON - "Be Stunned"?

Are some opponets more willing to be stunned than others (for lower or greater effect required)? Do they remember that you forced them to behave as if they were Stunned, or must you take this to the +20 level of "target remembers and believes it was his idea"? It's kludgy - more so than most of the other constructs suggested.

[RealLemming look away]

I'd sooner use "Transform - Person into Stunned person".

[RealLemming can look again.]

[Hyper-Man]

If one is reduced below zero stun, the body immediately places all effort into recovering from the KO, and all END falls to zero. Do you have a reference that indicates being suppressed below 0 STUN will not have this effect?

Regardless, I would handwave it given the desired effect of the power (to achieve a Stun with no actual damage).



Are some opponets more willing to be stunned than others (for lower or greater effect required)? Do they remember that you forced them to behave as if they were Stunned, or must you take this to the +20 level of "target remembers and believes it was his idea"? It's kludgy - more so than most of the other constructs suggested.

[RealLemming look away]

I'd sooner use "Transform - Person into Stunned person".

[RealLemming can look again.]
Straight from the FAQ:

Q: What happens to a character who is Drained/Suppressed/Transferred to 0 STUN?

A: A character Drained/Transferred/Suppressed to 0 STUN or below is Knocked Out. His non-Persistent Powers stop working at the end of the Segment, and his END drops to 0.

He only regains Drained/Transferred STUN at the rate bought for the power (he doesn’t take Recoveries or apply his REC, in other words). He regains END at the same rate.
He only regains Suppressed STUN when the attacker stops maintaining the Suppress, but at that point regains all of it, and all of his END, instantly.

[Sean Waters]

[RealLemming look away]

I'd sooner use "Transform - Person into Stunned person".

[RealLemming can look again.]


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!! My eyes! My sensibilities!

[Hugh Neilson]

Straight from the FAQ:


Thanks! [Zornwil, there's an example of a FAQ ruling that makes more sense than some of the rules in the book!]

[Hugh Neilson]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!! My eyes! My sensibilities!

I warned you to look away!

[NuSoardGraphite]

Hey Lemming;

I think your best bet here is to use a Stun Suppress. If enough Stun is done to "Stun" the target, they're stunned. Heck, if enough is done to K.O. them, they are "Hyper-stunned" and can do nothing (simply one SFX of being K.O.ed). Only lasts one phase, then the stun returns to full. If the character wishes to be able to maintain the effect, he can do so as normal, but normal stun only lasts one phase. Hyper-stun however lasts as long as its maintained.

[proditor]

Hey Lemming;

I think your best bet here is to use a Stun Suppress. If enough Stun is done to "Stun" the target, they're stunned. Heck, if enough is done to K.O. them, they are "Hyper-stunned" and can do nothing (simply one SFX of being K.O.ed). Only lasts one phase, then the stun returns to full. If the character wishes to be able to maintain the effect, he can do so as normal, but normal stun only lasts one phase. Hyper-stun however lasts as long as its maintained.Appropos of not much, that seems like a pretty good way to stat up a Zat gun from Stargate.

[Hyper-Man]

Hey Lemming;

I think your best bet here is to use a Stun Suppress. If enough Stun is done to "Stun" the target, they're stunned. Heck, if enough is done to K.O. them, they are "Hyper-stunned" and can do nothing (simply one SFX of being K.O.ed). Only lasts one phase, then the stun returns to full. If the character wishes to be able to maintain the effect, he can do so as normal, but normal stun only lasts one phase. Hyper-stun however lasts as long as its maintained.
Hyper-stun...

I like the sound of that. :cool:

[zornwil]

Its also metagaming, rules for the sake of rules.
Not necessarily, if the concept is "I limit the target's ability to sustain any damage, making him very weak" which I interpret as some reduction in STUN and/or CON.

I'm more or less with Hugh's post early in this thread. I would probably allow (depending on SFX) Dispel STUN or similar. However, even a STUN Drain I would say simply sets up the character to be knocked out or such, that a reduction to 0 or less in the target's STUN does NOT knock out the character. Instead, the character can't take even the feeblest hit as this new STUN is his base.

PS - regardless of the FAQ (thanks Hyper-man!)

[Creeper]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet. Why not use a mind control, visible, and whatever other limitations you want to add to create the effect?

[Sean Waters]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet. Why not use a mind control, visible, and whatever other limitations you want to add to create the effect?

The problem with MC is that different people at different times in different situations are going to have different attitudes to being stunned, by which I mean dropping to 1/2 DCV, dropping your defences and taking no actions. The effect is therefore going to be more difficult to adjudicate with MC, but it is a possibility.

[Sean Waters]

Metagaming: sometimes there is no other way, or no way at all.

Take the power to remove oxygen from the air. Hang on, you say, they tell you how to do that in FRED. Yes. Drains, mainly. Should be supresses, IMO, but hey...

The trouble with drains is that it will not effect everyone equally (some people have higher REC than others), is resisted by PowDef, so you'll need to make it NND, and it is a surprisingly difficult effect to build in such a way that it effects everyone in the same way as sticking there head in a bucket of water would. It will also be a very expensive power for relatively little effect.

Why not make someone pay quite a lot for change environment and then simply say the drowning rules click in. 20 or 30 points sounds about right. It is using a game mechanic to simulate an effect so it is going behind the scenery, but it makes perfect sense to do so and is game balanced.

Where is the problem?

[Hugh Neilson]

Metagaming: sometimes there is no other way, or no way at all.

Funny that it's metagaming to want a power that stuns an opponent without inflicting damage, but not to want a power that inflicts damage which gradually knocks someone out [which is an EB no STUN], an attack which virtually always hits unless the target dodges [AE 1 hex Accurate with levels] or an attack which overrides a target's defenses but is ineffectual in som,e circumstances [an NND}.

It's only perceived as metagaming because we don't have a "Stun Target" power.

[Sean Waters]

Funny that it's metagaming to want a power that stuns an opponent without inflicting damage, but not to want a power that inflicts damage which gradually knocks someone out [which is an EB no STUN], an attack which virtually always hits unless the target dodges [AE 1 hex Accurate with levels] or an attack which overrides a target's defenses but is ineffectual in som,e circumstances [an NND}.

It's only perceived as metagaming because we don't have a "Stun Target" power.

Well, quite. I'm a little hazy on exactly what metagaming is when it comes to examples that are not necessarily obvious. I have no problem with metagaming, personally - so long as the application is not going to spoil a game. I'd be happy to have an 'only to stun' advantage/limitation or a new power and I'd be happy to have a change environment that employs the drowning mechanic. If there is a need that is not being fulfilled by existing build mechanics, looks to me like we need new powers.

'Stun target' and 'Suffocate' sound like a good place to start.

[WhammeWhamme]

The problem with MC is that different people at different times in different situations are going to have different attitudes to being stunned, by which I mean dropping to 1/2 DCV, dropping your defences and taking no actions. The effect is therefore going to be more difficult to adjudicate with MC, but it is a possibility.

Ooh.. I got it!

[2.5x] xd6 Mental Illusions: Imagine this Attack just Stunned you (Only) (-1/2), Based On CON (-1/2)

(blah blah CON/Power Defense okay blah blah)

[Hugh Neilson]

Ooh.. I got it!

[2.5x] xd6 Mental Illusions: Imagine this Attack just Stunned you (Only) (-1/2), Based On CON (-1/2)

(blah blah CON/Power Defense okay blah blah)

Isn't that more properly a Mental Illusion?