Gestures and Restrainable

[Gary]

Ok, Steve won't answer this question.

Why is Gestures worth -1/4 and Restrainable worth -1/2? What could be used to stop Restrainable that couldn't also stop Gestures?

[OddHat]

Well, by default, Gestures comes in two flavors: Simple or one handed for -1/4, two handed for -1/2. Rasputin the one-hand-gesturing mage can keep casting his spells even if one of his hands is chopped off, but Irving The Twitchy Two Hander can't. So, in some cases Restrainable might be thought of as the two handed version of Gestures; Athenian can't hold anything in either hand while using her restrainable lasso, but if it were merely Gestures, she could hang onto a fallen foe with one hand and gesture with the other. Doc Strange can keep gesturing one handed for many of his spells even if shot in the shoulder, but Hawkman can't fly if someone hacks a chunk out of one of his wings.

How do you handle it?

[Gary]

Well, by default, Gestures comes in two flavors: Simple or one handed for -1/4, two handed for -1/2. Rasputin the one-hand-gesturing mage can keep casting his spells even if one of his hands is chopped off, but Irving The Twitchy Two Hander can't. So, in some cases Restrainable might be thought of as the two handed version of Gestures; Athenian can't hold anything in either hand while using her restrainable lasso, but if it were merely Gestures, she could hang onto a fallen foe with one hand and gesture with the other. Doc Strange can keep gesturing one handed for many of his spells even if shot in the shoulder, but Hawkman can't fly if someone hacks a chunk out of one of his wings.

How do you handle it?

Good point.

Then again, the description of Restrainable states that claws can take that limitation, when presumably you would have a claw on each hand and could use one if the other hand was grabbed. And it would be even less of a limitation if the character had Extra Limbs.

I've mostly played it with the default rules. I'm not sure what would be a good fix, or if a fix is needed. That's why I'm soliciting opinions. :)

[OddHat]

Good point.

Then again, the description of Restrainable states that claws can take that limitation, when presumably you would have a claw on each hand and could use one if the other hand was grabbed. And it would be even less of a limitation if the character had Extra Limbs.

I've mostly played it with the default rules. I'm not sure what would be a good fix, or if a fix is needed. That's why I'm soliciting opinions. :)

Yup, it becomes trickier with Claws. Wolverine's claws are restrainable; grab him and he can't use them, press his fists up against his own body (or someone elses body) and the only way he can extend them is to cut through flesh. On the other hand, they seem less restrainable than Angel's big frickin' wings. Personally, I probably would still let him take it.

Edit: Mister Six Stretchy Limbs Claws Guy would have to take the lesser -1/4 version of retrainable if allowed to take it at all. Anyone asking to take Gestures and Restrainable on the same power is asking to have a 0 point limit. Or to have his hollowed, cleaned and steamed skull used as a dice cup. Whichever.

[Hugh Neilson]

Well, let's look at two heroes. One, The Weather Witch, has Flight with Gestures (a magic spell), -1/4. Another, Captain Hawk, has Restrainable flight (wings) for -1/2.

On Phase 12, both take to the skies. On Phase 3, GlueGuy fires off an area effect entangle, catching both of them. Captain Hawk begins to fall - his wings are gummed up. Weather Witch, however, can stay aloft - she doesn't need to gesture throughout the use of her power. That difference accounts for the -1/4 variance.

Needing both hands free to fire an instant power is a -1/2 limitation, so it seems fair that both Restrainable and 2 Handed Gestures are -1/2, so if having 1 hand free is enough, you get only -1/4. Mind you, Wolvy is also restrainable by unusual effects (like magnetics) which prevent his claws from popping in the first place.

This begs the question for constant powers, though. Needing 2 handed throughout nets -3/4 with Gestures. Perhaps we should assume both hands (or the equivalent) must be restrained to prevent the -1/2 Restrainable constant power from being used.

[JmOz]

I think it is important to note that gestures requires the hands/arms, restrainable does not. If I don't have my hands is a bigger limitation than if I don't have my wings...

[OddHat]

Well, let's look at two heroes. One, The Weather Witch, has Flight with Gestures (a magic spell), -1/4. Another, Captain Hawk, has Restrainable flight (wings) for -1/2.

On Phase 12, both take to the skies. On Phase 3, GlueGuy fires off an area effect entangle, catching both of them. Captain Hawk begins to fall - his wings are gummed up. Weather Witch, however, can stay aloft - she doesn't need to gesture throughout the use of her power. That difference accounts for the -1/4 variance.

Good point.

[Gary]

Well, let's look at two heroes. One, The Weather Witch, has Flight with Gestures (a magic spell), -1/4. Another, Captain Hawk, has Restrainable flight (wings) for -1/2.

On Phase 12, both take to the skies. On Phase 3, GlueGuy fires off an area effect entangle, catching both of them. Captain Hawk begins to fall - his wings are gummed up. Weather Witch, however, can stay aloft - she doesn't need to gesture throughout the use of her power. That difference accounts for the -1/4 variance.

Needing both hands free to fire an instant power is a -1/2 limitation, so it seems fair that both Restrainable and 2 Handed Gestures are -1/2, so if having 1 hand free is enough, you get only -1/4. Mind you, Wolvy is also restrainable by unusual effects (like magnetics) which prevent his claws from popping in the first place.

This begs the question for constant powers, though. Needing 2 handed throughout nets -3/4 with Gestures. Perhaps we should assume both hands (or the equivalent) must be restrained to prevent the -1/2 Restrainable constant power from being used.


All this is true, but I'm not convinced it's worth an additional -1/4 difference between -1/4 Gestures and Restrainable. In actual practice, virtually every Entangle is purchased so that it affects all your limbs, and any Grab vs someone with gestures is going to grab the Gesturing limbs. There aren't many Grabs and Entangles that leaves a free limb to bypass these limitations. And other than Grabs and Entangles, there aren't a lot of ways to stop these limitations.

[Kristopher]

All this is true, but I'm not convinced it's worth an additional -1/4 difference between -1/4 Gestures and Restrainable. In actual practice, virtually every Entangle is purchased so that it affects all your limbs, and any Grab vs someone with gestures is going to grab the Gesturing limbs. There aren't many Grabs and Entangles that leaves a free limb to bypass these limitations. And other than Grabs and Entangles, there aren't a lot of ways to stop these limitations.


There are some other situations. The first thing that comes to mind is, say, someone who needs to use gestures with his mental powers. He's caught up in a bank robbery in his secret ID, and can't mind control the crooks into getting into a fist fight over the split on the take without drawing their attention and risking his secret ID.

[Hugh Neilson]

All this is true, but I'm not convinced it's worth an additional -1/4 difference between -1/4 Gestures and Restrainable. In actual practice, virtually every Entangle is purchased so that it affects all your limbs, and any Grab vs someone with gestures is going to grab the Gesturing limbs. There aren't many Grabs and Entangles that leaves a free limb to bypass these limitations. And other than Grabs and Entangles, there aren't a lot of ways to stop these limitations.

1 handed grab to stop your 2 handed gestures leaves my Brick with a hand free to pummel you (or slap over your mouth so you can't Incant, Mr. Smarty Wizard!). A 2 handed grab, essential to preventing you gesturing with either hand, does not leave me with a free hand.

Of course, the question of how many powers you can gesture at the same time also comes into the issue. If you need a full phase and 2 handed gestures, can you use any other power requiring gestures at the same time? 1 handed at least lets you use two at once. I believe that's beyond the written rules, however.

Impairing and disabling rules (not all campaigns are for Supers, after all) also eliminate one arm from contention far more often than they elimninate two.

[Gary]

1 handed grab to stop your 2 handed gestures leaves my Brick with a hand free to pummel you (or slap over your mouth so you can't Incant, Mr. Smarty Wizard!). A 2 handed grab, essential to preventing you gesturing with either hand, does not leave me with a free hand.

That's worth a little, but not really an additional -1/4. After all, the brick could simply squeeze if he wanted to do damage. It's only if you have Gestures on some powers and Incantations on others that this would apply.




Of course, the question of how many powers you can gesture at the same time also comes into the issue. If you need a full phase and 2 handed gestures, can you use any other power requiring gestures at the same time? 1 handed at least lets you use two at once. I believe that's beyond the written rules, however.

Impairing and disabling rules (not all campaigns are for Supers, after all) also eliminate one arm from contention far more often than they elimninate two.


Of course it's really easy to avoid this by purchasing Extra Limbs.

So is it your opinion that someone with claws like Wolverine should have only a -1/4 Restrainable if he only requires one hand to use his powers?

[OddHat]

Of course it's really easy to avoid this by purchasing Extra Limbs.

At which point it's no longer a limitation, and the GM says "no".

[Gary]

At which point it's no longer a limitation, and the GM says "no".


That brings up another good question. At what point do you start penalizing people for buying a power to cover a limitation? Clearly a character with a Change Environment Electromagnetic Field is a no-no if his powers only work in Electromagnetic Fields. However, it's perfectly legal to buy up a skill roll on a power with RSR up to a final 17-. And it's perfectly legal to buy as much Luck as you wish even if you have a power that's based on a Luck roll.

Where do you draw the line?

[WhammeWhamme]

That brings up another good question. At what point do you start penalizing people for buying a power to cover a limitation? Clearly a character with a Change Environment Electromagnetic Field is a no-no if his powers only work in Electromagnetic Fields. However, it's perfectly legal to buy up a skill roll on a power with RSR up to a final 17-. And it's perfectly legal to buy as much Luck as you wish even if you have a power that's based on a Luck roll.

Where do you draw the line?

Nowhere. However, in regards to the specific cases:

1) That would be a "variable limitation" between 'linked' and Only in EMF. If that's still worth points, all well and good...
2a) If he has multiple RSR powers, sure. Gotta loooove cumulative penalties. If he only has the ONE power keying off it, then "a non-limiting limitation is worthless". And base it off Activation, ya piker...
2b) And should someone go the RSR 'start up' route (or similiar)... I have no insurmountable problems retroactively rebuilding a PC to match 'standards or non-brokenness'...
3) Time to pull out the Luck Drains... :)

[Gary]

Nowhere. However, in regards to the specific cases:

1) That would be a "variable limitation" between 'linked' and Only in EMF. If that's still worth points, all well and good...
2a) If he has multiple RSR powers, sure. Gotta loooove cumulative penalties. If he only has the ONE power keying off it, then "a non-limiting limitation is worthless". And base it off Activation, ya piker...
2b) And should someone go the RSR 'start up' route (or similiar)... I have no insurmountable problems retroactively rebuilding a PC to match 'standards or non-brokenness'...
3) Time to pull out the Luck Drains... :)


The default rules and the FAQ state that there is no restriction on how high you can purchase RSR. And common sense says that RSR should allow you a higher final roll than a simple activation roll of equal value. With an activation roll, you're getting the limit straight without any cost or complication. With RSR, you're purchasing a very expensive skill to get your roll that high. A 100 pt power would require a skill costing 29 pts to get a final 17- roll, assuming a 23 Stat that the skill is based on. And you would only save 33 pts from taking this limitation.

The best time to use a skill roll is with a Cosmic VPP. A 100 pt cosmic vpp costs 250 pts. If you wanted a final 17- roll, it would cost you 200 pts for the vpp, and 29 pts for the roll, assuming a 23 Stat. You save 21 pts by taking the risk of rolling a 18.

The Luck Roll is a much better deal in general if you're playing a Luck based character.

[OddHat]

However, it's perfectly legal to buy up a skill roll on a power with RSR up to a final 17-. And it's perfectly legal to buy as much Luck as you wish even if you have a power that's based on a Luck roll.

Where do you draw the line?

Wherever it makes sense to do so, based on the chracter, group, and campaign as a whole. ;)

RSR is really a self correcting problem. Sooner or later, even at 17 or less, the character is going to blow the roll. By spending the points to buy up that Magic skill (or whatever) the character is already getting less of a savings. You can always set a skill cap in your campaign, or rule that any roll of 16 or greater is a failure no matter what the character's skill level.

[Hugh Neilson]

So is it your opinion that someone with claws like Wolverine should have only a -1/4 Restrainable if he only requires one hand to use his powers?

This would be a reaosnable means of dovetailing Restrainable and Gestures. Restrainable is commonly used for wings, and fouling only one wing won't leave a flyer a lot of options. Needing only one hand free, rather than two, is a different and less limiting limitation.

It might also be appropriate to buy an extra d6 of HKA (say) with the two handed Restrainable limitation, indicating a more powerful two handed strike.

[Sean Waters]

For the little it may be worth, I think that there is not too much point in trying to get it too right, because the level of the limitation is not independent of the rest of the character.

An example: The Cosmic Rod (tm), a staff like OAF is wielded by Little Timmy. Little Timmy has a DEX of 8 due to his bad leg, and a strength of 5 because he is so little. Taking it off him is easy.

Mighty Morph has the Cosmic Rod (tm). He has 35 DEX and 75 Strength. Just how accessable is the Cosmic Rod (tm) now?

...but they both get the +1 bonus. Arguably they shouldn't, but, and trust me on this one my children, that way lies only madness.

[bluegodjanus]

That's worth a little, but not really an additional -1/4. After all, the brick could simply squeeze if he wanted to do damage. It's only if you have Gestures on some powers and Incantations on others that this would apply.

Well, yes, but a squeeze doesn't allow you to add your +10d6 HA Wizard-Destroying Fist manoeuvre.

[WhammeWhamme]

The default rules and the FAQ state that there is no restriction on how high you can purchase RSR. And common sense says that RSR should allow you a higher final roll than a simple activation roll of equal value. With an activation roll, you're getting the limit straight without any cost or complication. With RSR, you're purchasing a very expensive skill to get your roll that high. A 100 pt power would require a skill costing 29 pts to get a final 17- roll, assuming a 23 Stat that the skill is based on. And you would only save 33 pts from taking this limitation.

The best time to use a skill roll is with a Cosmic VPP. A 100 pt cosmic vpp costs 250 pts. If you wanted a final 17- roll, it would cost you 200 pts for the vpp, and 29 pts for the roll, assuming a 23 Stat. You save 21 pts by taking the risk of rolling a 18.

The Luck Roll is a much better deal in general if you're playing a Luck based character.

Correct. The rules do not limit how high you can buy the skill roll. However, it is ALSO stated that non-limiting limitations are not worth points... and these are NOT mutually contradictory. It's entirely possible to have a 100- Skill, and an RSR power based off it, that is limited. It's also possible to have an 11- skill roll and a power that is NOT limited by it. (Power has concentration and character has overall skill levels)

More to the point, it is NOT limiting them to buy up the skill roll. Skills are inherently useful. High Skill Rolls are ALSO inherently useful. So no, the "reduced savings" argument would never fly. Just because you chose to spend the points rebated on a high skill (which WILL be useful independent of the RSR power), does not mean you are not taking a '-1/2 limitation that is not limiting'.

In the game, there are many things which are more effective if you have other things. This is not a problem; if it were, that would be too bad, because it's almost insoluble.

[Gary]

Correct. The rules do not limit how high you can buy the skill roll. However, it is ALSO stated that non-limiting limitations are not worth points... and these are NOT mutually contradictory. It's entirely possible to have a 100- Skill, and an RSR power based off it, that is limited. It's also possible to have an 11- skill roll and a power that is NOT limited by it. (Power has concentration and character has overall skill levels)

More to the point, it is NOT limiting them to buy up the skill roll. Skills are inherently useful. High Skill Rolls are ALSO inherently useful. So no, the "reduced savings" argument would never fly. Just because you chose to spend the points rebated on a high skill (which WILL be useful independent of the RSR power), does not mean you are not taking a '-1/2 limitation that is not limiting'.

In the game, there are many things which are more effective if you have other things. This is not a problem; if it were, that would be too bad, because it's almost insoluble.


It depends on what the skill is. Magic skill 25- might be extremely useful outside of its pool changing use in general, but Metamorph 25- probably isn't. And something like Artist 25- to change a Summon power or VPP is of marginal use outside of the RSR, especially at that skill level.

[PhilFleischmann]

Getting back to the subject, a power might even have both Gestures and Restrainable. Like a "Grow Wings" spell. I have to Gesture to work the spell, I can't cast it if my hands are tied. Once I've cast it, my wings are Restrainable.

Come to think of it, there is a problem with restrainable, especially for movement powers. Aren't they all restrainable in some way, by default? After all, I can't Run if my legs are Restrained, any more than I could fly with my wings Restrained, and the same holds true for swimming, leaping, etc. I'm starting to think that Restrainable should be default for movement powers, and you should have to buy Non-Restrainable for a +1/2 Advantage. This would represent say, instead of moving your legs to run, you flow along the ground like a liquid, or instead of flapping wings to fly, you simply rise into the air telekinetically, etc.

This is just an idea off the top of my head, and may not make any sense once I've had more sleep. But don't dismiss it out of hand just because it's a radical idea and a change to the system!

[Gary]

Getting back to the subject, a power might even have both Gestures and Restrainable. Like a "Grow Wings" spell. I have to Gesture to work the spell, I can't cast it if my hands are tied. Once I've cast it, my wings are Restrainable.

Come to think of it, there is a problem with restrainable, especially for movement powers. Aren't they all restrainable in some way, by default? After all, I can't Run if my legs are Restrained, any more than I could fly with my wings Restrained, and the same holds true for swimming, leaping, etc. I'm starting to think that Restrainable should be default for movement powers, and you should have to buy Non-Restrainable for a +1/2 Advantage. This would represent say, instead of moving your legs to run, you flow along the ground like a liquid, or instead of flapping wings to fly, you simply rise into the air telekinetically, etc.

This is just an idea off the top of my head, and may not make any sense once I've had more sleep. But don't dismiss it out of hand just because it's a radical idea and a change to the system!


That's a good point. Why should Hawkman get -1/2 for his flight while Flash or Quicksilver has to pay full points for his running? Hawkman's wings could be grabbed or entangled, but so could a runner's legs.

I wonder how we can get teleport into the mix if we say that Non-Restrainable is a 1/2 advantage?

[OddHat]

That's a good point. Why should Hawkman get -1/2 for his flight while Flash or Quicksilver has to pay full points for his running? Hawkman's wings could be grabbed or entangled, but so could a runner's legs.

I wonder how we can get teleport into the mix if we say that Non-Restrainable is a 1/2 advantage?

Flight is not restrainable in the vast majority of cases in comics; that's one of its built in advantages. Hawkman is getting his bonus because his wings are effectively a focus (note the wording of the limit, which indicates that you should not usually have both Restrainable and Focus on the same power, but that Wing Harnesses may be an exception).

Myself, I've always hated allowing Restrainable as a limit on Cyberware. Most super powers can be eliminated given a lab table and a really sharp knife, but only Cyberware gets the bonus. The explanation that it's also vulnerable to a few specific type of attack (EMPs and such) never sat well with me.

[Gary]

Flight is not restrainable in the vast majority of cases in comics; that's one of its built in advantages. Hawkman is getting his bonus because his wings are effectively a focus (note the wording of the limit, which indicates that you should not usually have both Restrainable and Focus on the same power, but that Wing Harnesses may be an exception).

Myself, I've always hated allowing Restrainable as a limit on Cyberware. Most super powers can be eliminated given a lab table and a really sharp knife, but only Cyberware gets the bonus. The explanation that it's also vulnerable to a few specific type of attack (EMPs and such) never sat well with me.


That's true in comic book terms. But it seems strange that Flight should be inherently non-restrainable whereas Running is inherently restrainable most of the time unless you have a funky conception such as being a big ball who rolls around.

[OddHat]

That's true in comic book terms. But it seems strange that Flight should be inherently non-restrainable whereas Running is inherently restrainable most of the time unless you have a funky conception such as being a big ball who rolls around.

Eh. This is a Heroic Fantasy game. You can think of it as partially offset by the fact that you get your first 6" of running for free. Running is inherently 12 points cheaper than Flight, but gets Restrainable by default.

Still, (Human) Flight and T-Port are not restrainable by default in the fiction where they appear, and that fiction is what Hero simulates.

[Hugh Neilson]

Eh. This is a Heroic Fantasy game. You can think of it as partially offset by the fact that you get your first 6" of running for free. Running is inherently 12 points cheaper than Flight, but gets Restrainable by default.

No turn mode either, and it doesn't increase the knockback you take.

[tesuji]

Why is Gestures worth -1/4 and Restrainable worth -1/2?

because the GM will have more "problem situations" come up for the -1/2 than for the -1/4, because the limitation taken was bigger.

[WhammeWhamme]

That's true in comic book terms. But it seems strange that Flight should be inherently non-restrainable whereas Running is inherently restrainable most of the time unless you have a funky conception such as being a big ball who rolls around.

Well, Running has a few freebies added on to it. Sure, it loses the whole 'third dimension', but it does have gains.

[WhammeWhamme]

It depends on what the skill is. Magic skill 25- might be extremely useful outside of its pool changing use in general, but Metamorph 25- probably isn't. And something like Artist 25- to change a Summon power or VPP is of marginal use outside of the RSR, especially at that skill level.

Metamorph 25- : Apparently you know almost everything about shapeshifting. It would be 'fair' to apply this as (perhaps) a bonus to PER rolls to spot shapeshifters, or to help train others in using their shapeshifting, or as a complementary skill to shapeshifting suppressants/enhancers, or, or, or...

Artist 25- : You are an unbelievably skillful artist. Perhaps you can draw blindfolded, or with your teeth, or well enough to win the "draw-off" vs the Greek God Of Artistry (if there is one. :))... more to the point, surely linking this to a _power_ implies some degree of control over magic (or psionics, or whatever your SFX is).

And _any_ power skill lets you try 'tricks' that would normally be outside your abilities.

So no, I stand by the notion that "needing" a 25- roll is not actually a limiting factor.

[Rapier]

That's true in comic book terms. But it seems strange that Flight should be inherently non-restrainable whereas Running is inherently restrainable most of the time unless you have a funky conception such as being a big ball who rolls around.
You are getting too caught up in the terminology.

Running = Ground Movement

If I am playing Inchy the Inch Worm, I have 10" of Running...but no legs. I squiggle fast. I am not restrainable by default.

If my powered armour character has a jet pack or jet boots those are also not restrainable.

[PhilFleischmann]

You are getting too caught up in the terminology.

Running = Ground Movement

If I am playing Inchy the Inch Worm, I have 10" of Running...but no legs. I squiggle fast. I am not restrainable by default.

If my powered armour character has a jet pack or jet boots those are also not restrainable.
That isn't quite the point. If I am playing Leggy the Running Guy, I have 10" of Running...with legs. I run fast. I *am* restrainable by default.

And yet Inchy and Leggy both pay the same amount for their Running, restrainable or not.

If I need wings, I can take Restrainable on my Flight, but if I need my legs, I can't take Restrainable on my Running. Or can I? I've never seen a published character who did.

[OddHat]

That isn't quite the point. If I am playing Leggy the Running Guy, I have 10" of Running...with legs. I run fast. I *am* restrainable by default.

And yet Inchy and Leggy both pay the same amount for their Running, restrainable or not.

If I need wings, I can take Restrainable on my Flight, but if I need my legs, I can't take Restrainable on my Running. Or can I? I've never seen a published character who did.

Flighty the Flying Guy paid 20 points for hi 10" flight. Leggy paid 8 for his 10" of running. Flighty takes 1d6 more KB from every attack and has trouble turning (thanks Hugh). Leggy has fewer problems with KB and turning. All in all, it evens out. If Flighty takes big wings, ha can make them restrainable, as he now has what amounts to a focus. If Leggy has extra running through a pair of extra legs, he could probably take restrainable on that as well.

Thinking about it, restrainable flight also means crashing to the ground if you ge entangled mid-air; the built in restrainable of running does not. A person with Flight and Running has two modes of movement, and loses one when entangled, or both if he has restrainable; a person who only has running and gets entangled loses only one mode of movement. Restrainable is more of a limit for Flighty, and is therefore worth points. It's a limit on a free or discounted power for Leggy, and therefore is probably worth nothing.

[PhilFleischmann]

Fine, but again, that isn't quite the point. Flighty and Leggy are different cases and so Restrainable can be applied to one but not the other.

But what about Leggy and Inchy? They both paid the same 8 points for their Running, but Leggy's is Restrainable and Inchy's isn't. Should Leggy get a Limitation, or should Inchy pay for an Advantage?

[OddHat]

Fine, but again, that isn't quite the point. Flighty and Leggy are different cases and so Restrainable can be applied to one but not the other.

But what about Leggy and Inchy? They both paid the same 8 points for their Running, but Leggy's is Restrainable and Inchy's isn't. Should Leggy get a Limitation, or should Inchy pay for an Advantage?

Both Leggy and Inchy lose one mode of movement when entangled, so long as the special effets of the Entangle can entangle Inchy at all. So, since neither is more limited than the other, I'd say that the costs should be about the same.

There are some SFX based differences in the characters, but IMO they're too minor to worry about.

[PhilFleischmann]

I feel like I'm talking to a wall here. No one can move when they are Entangled, regardless of their movement types or whether they are Restrainable.

If I have legs you can stop me from running by grabbing my legs. If I move on the ground by rolling because I'm a spherical shape, I have no legs for you to grab. Likewise if I'm a blob and I move by oozing along the ground. The most obvious, default form of ground movement is restrainable, but other forms of ground movement are not.

[OddHat]

I feel like I'm talking to a wall here. No one can move when they are Entangled, regardless of their movement types or whether they are Restrainable.

It depends on the SFX of the Entangle. If the Entangle is a pair of handcuffs, you can still run or fly, unless I've handcuffed you to something. Some other entangles (Ice Bonds, etc) probably shouldn't stop some forms of Flight, depending on SFX. More of the whole 0 point advantages and limits issue.



If I have legs you can stop me from running by grabbing my legs. If I move on the ground by rolling because I'm a spherical shape, I have no legs for you to grab. Likewise if I'm a blob and I move by oozing along the ground. The most obvious, default form of ground movement is restrainable, but other forms of ground movement are not.

I can still stop you from running if you're a blob by grabbing you. I just cant stop you by shooting you in the leg; a 0 point benefit you gain from having no legs.

[Rapier]

I feel like I'm talking to a wall here. No one can move when they are Entangled, regardless of their movement types or whether they are Restrainable.

If I have legs you can stop me from running by grabbing my legs. If I move on the ground by rolling because I'm a spherical shape, I have no legs for you to grab. Likewise if I'm a blob and I move by oozing along the ground. The most obvious, default form of ground movement is restrainable, but other forms of ground movement are not.
All depends on SFX. I completely understand and agree with you. In my mind, I was thinking of "entangle" I was thinking more of the energy bands around someone's torso (or handcuffs)...which obviously would not stop them from running (given the understanding that it is still hard to run if you can't move your arms). If you are caught in a glue-blob entangle, no movement (except TP) would be possible.

It would be hard to entangle AmoebaBoy. You would need some kind of encompassing SFX (a power globe or something), but that would be true of almost any kind of shape shiftery character.