VPPs: Your experiences

[Whitewings]

Nexus and I had a disagreement on the subject of VPPs; in his experience they're too often used to play "anything you can do, I can do better," but in mine they're more often used for "Can anyone here... never mind. Jacknife!" So this got me to wondering, in your experience, how are field-changeable VPPs most commonly used? Do they more often help games, or hurt them?

[Sketchpad]

I would say it depends on the player ... I've seen them abused, as well as being a useful tool. In my current campaign, Mrs. Sketchpad plays a mage with a Magic Pool and she loves it ... it allows for freedom of powers, but she also has various restrictions on it (like Wild Surges ;) ).

[Whitewings]

I would say it depends on the player ... I've seen them abused, as well as being a useful tool. In my current campaign, Mrs. Sketchpad plays a mage with a Magic Pool and she loves it ... it allows for freedom of powers, but she also has various restrictions on it (like Wild Surges ;) ).I'd guess her magic revolves around drawing stuff? Sound fun.

[Publius]

Are VPPs a "rule-buster"? Not in my experience, but I keep a pretty tight hold on VPPs, some good successes:

I once had a Fantasy game that I was running where I used a low-point VPP as a "Cantrip Pool", that was very useful and because the point value was set very low it did not get abused too badly.

For some reason my PCs don't play Gadgeteer types. NPC villains on the other hand do. I try to make my villains just as rounded as the PCs and thus rather than give them the death-ray machine as hand-waving, I try to fashion such stuff as a rather significant gadget pool that maintains the "theme" of the bad guy ("only weather-related gadgets" or "Only for use as the villain's Plot Driving Secret Weapon" i.e. rather than as a utility belt for several useful lower-point items). OKay so this sometimes get costly, and in the end hand-waving would be practically the same, but it is always nice as an intellectual exercise.

I have been experimenting with True Shapeshifting as a Multiform-based VPP, but I haven't worked the kinks out yet.

[Lord Mhoram]

I am too effecient with VPPs as a player, so I don't run them anymore. As a GM I am leery of them. We don't usually have the "better than you" problem. The main problem is extreme versitility.

Aside from a gadget pool that provides all of a character's power, we have settled in general on a decent compromise between versitility and power. As most characters in our game with decent sized VPPs usually have some decent defences, and usually a little skill or power outside the pool, we do the following.
Active points in pool cannot be greater than the pool reserve (usually at a -1 or so). This makes a pool an infinite slot multipower, but doesn't overwhelm the game. If you have a cosmic with no limitiations you are looking at a cost of about 8-10 slots in a MP (assuming all ultra slots).

Example
Cosmic MP (60)
each slot is the full 60 pts, all ultras at 6 pts a slot
with 8 slots that gives you a total cost of 108

Cosmic Pool (60)
Reserve 0 phase, no skill +2 on reserve
Limitation -1
reserve total cost 45
Total cost 105

For those of us in the game that want the versitility this is a fair comprimise, and has worked very well for our group for years.

[Publius]

I would say it depends on the player ... I've seen them abused, as well as being a useful tool. In my current campaign, Mrs. Sketchpad plays a mage with a Magic Pool and she loves it ... it allows for freedom of powers, but she also has various restrictions on it (like Wild Surges ;) ).Actually, if I can lure my S.O. (She Who Must Be Obeyed) back to the gaming table, I might do this for her PC (Madam Megawatt) who has electrical powers. My S.O. kept coming up with some really cool ideas for using her electrical powers, they just were not stuff on her sheet. I used the Power skill for some of these as most were largely one-shot uses, but it was a real stretch sometimes and she felt rather confined.

I guess when doing something like this, you should consider the player as you suggest. Some have a good sense of the dramatic action and will not abuse it, some will do anything to win and take it right to the edge. Know your players and maybe if you have any doubts you could tell them that you reserve the right to say "no" for purely dramatic reasons if they take the VPP. If they accept the bargain, they cannot really complain about it too much later.

[Whitewings]

Active points in pool cannot be greater than the pool reserve (usually at a -1 or so).I don't see how that counts as a limit, when a normal VPP doesn't let you exceed the pool's size in AP anway.

[nexus]

I feel I should explain my position better. I hope this doesn't sound too jerky.

I am not comfortable with large, practically unlimited VPPs. Too many times in my experience they are used to upstage other PCs in their area of expertise or particular niche. That's just been my experience and once burned twice shy, as the saying goes.

Also, as a GM I find VPPs a real pain to deal with. Silver Surfer, Green Lantern types are hard to deal with. In story they can suffer from PIS when needed but PCs have no such limitation. Just from some of the terrible things I've done to GM's plot with VPPs, I know of the potential headaches (I'm not claiming to be an angel here). Its something I prefer not to deal with.

I do allow combat variable VPPs, but I prefer to them to fairly limited and defined, even for high powered games. Like I have character with VPP Weather Control and Another with a Mimic pool. Useful but not so potentially game breaking and hard to plan for. IMO. Its not the one true way and If you're a gm with more skill that can handle them, I envy you. But that is how I prefer to keep things.

[Sketchpad]

I'd guess her magic revolves around drawing stuff? Sound fun.
heh .. nope :) That's not her character's name, just her name on the boards ;) She's playing a chaos mage in my Champions game that's kinda like a warped Cardcaptor ;)

[OddHat]

Played well they work fine, but I enjoy them more in solo games. Mrs.Oddhat is also playing a Witch with a VPP in a solo game right now, and she's having great fun with it.

In groups, I prefer to see the special effects tightly restricted, limits pre-defined ("You may choose up to -1 from the following") and the active points lower than those of the other players, but in the case of a good player I might be less strict. I also like to see VPP characters with very clear weaknesses in other areas (if in a group).

Night Hunter (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=486666&postcount=9) is a VPP based character I'd be comfortable with in the hands of most fairly good players. Low active point powers and a clearly defined special effect (with built in limits) plus low speed, he's not likely to rain on the parades of other players.

The Light (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=493045&postcount=24) is a tougher case. Her powers are only 50 active points, which means that the other players will have more raw power (probably much more), and again her SPD is low. Still, her power level is such that she could start to seriously intrude on the teritory of other players. A 50 active point power is an easy scenario breaker as well, and she has Summon as an option in the VPP (a very cheesy power in the hands of a rules mechanic). I'd only give her to a serious role player I trusted, and wouldn't use her at all in a con game.

Always (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=488356&postcount=20) has a nice cleanly defined special effect with very clear limits on what he can and can't do with his VPP. He's powerful, but I would be willing to let any good player use him.

Once you start getting into 80 Point Cosmic VPPs, I'd have to either be running a solo game or have players I knew well and trusted before I'd let that in.

[OddHat]

I am too effecient with VPPs as a player, so I don't run them anymore. As a GM I am leery of them. We don't usually have the "better than you" problem. The main problem is extreme versitility.

Aside from a gadget pool that provides all of a character's power, we have settled in general on a decent compromise between versitility and power. As most characters in our game with decent sized VPPs usually have some decent defences, and usually a little skill or power outside the pool, we do the following.
Active points in pool cannot be greater than the pool reserve (usually at a -1 or so). This makes a pool an infinite slot multipower, but doesn't overwhelm the game. If you have a cosmic with no limitiations you are looking at a cost of about 8-10 slots in a MP (assuming all ultra slots).

Example
Cosmic MP (60)
each slot is the full 60 pts, all ultras at 6 pts a slot
with 8 slots that gives you a total cost of 108

Cosmic Pool (60)
Reserve 0 phase, no skill +2 on reserve
Limitation -1
reserve total cost 45
Total cost 105

For those of us in the game that want the versitility this is a fair comprimise, and has worked very well for our group for years.

That is a very good idea.

[Champsguy]

Quite simply, I don't allow a power inside a VPP that I wouldn't allow outside of a VPP. If you wouldn't ordinarily let someone buy Desolid, Usable As Attack, then you sure as hell don't let someone have it through their VPP. Likewise, be sure to limit the character from buying an Aid inside their VPP and then using that on the EB they also bought in the VPP. That sort of thing can get kind of nasty pretty quickly.

Pay close attention to the description of a VPP. Going from memory here, but I believe it says something to the effect of "a VPP may produce any power of a given special effect". In that sense, "Cosmic Power", or "whatever I feel like right now", is too broad. You probably shouldn't be able to control the weather, shapechange, and use telemechanics in the same VPP.

[Lord Mhoram]

I don't see how that counts as a limit, when a normal VPP doesn't let you exceed the pool's size in AP anway.


Real points in a pool cannot exceed the reserve, and active points in any one power cannot exceed pool reserve, but you could have, for example, two 60 point powers in a 60 point pool, assuming each had -1 in limitations.

The limitation I describe for our games means that no matter how many limitations you pile on to your powers you can never have more than 60 active points total (in the above example).

[Chuckg]

Pretty much everybody in the New Sentinels game has some VPP, either because of primary shtick (such as Starguard's "Magical Girl On Archangel Steroids" routine) or to represent that they're such experienced superheroes that their list of 'mastered power stunts' goes off the page.

So far, it's worked, and I think it's because we remember these rules:

a) Know Your Special Effect, And Stay Inside it Religiously

For example, Starguard's special effect is pretty durn liberal (I am the Magical Girl, after all), but her understanding of the forces involved is that of a novice's. So, you get Force Walls, Holy Auras, Tunneling, and other such things that are easily understood, as opposed to massively esoteric enchantments that manipulate the very fabric of the manasphere so as to bring about the massively subtle whatever.

Likewise, Horus-Re, Champion of the Unconquered Sun, God of Truth, has a VPP he can use to augment his already prodigious strength (his most common usage), or for various 'sun god' powers, like his detecting lies, his shining sun-god aura, his PRE boost, his ability to give vampires a lethal suntan just by standing there, etc, etc. But if he tried to use it to suddenly pull some Healing effect out of his butt, or turning lead into gold, or etc. the DM would frown.


b) Active Point Cap.

The max size of any one power is the pool reserve, and requests to cheese around it are flatly denied.


c) We're Not Gonna Wait, Dammit

Have your slots written up ahead of time and/or be able to write really damn fast between Phases, because the game will not wait while you flip through the design manual.

And it helps if you get as many slots pre-approved by the GM before the game as possible.

[Lord Mhoram]

Going from memory here, but I believe it says something to the effect of "a VPP may produce any power of a given special effect". In that sense, "Cosmic Power", or "whatever I feel like right now", is too broad.

To quote, "A character with thei Power Farmework establishes a pool of character points from which he can use to create any Power, or any Power with a given special effect.

In the pool sidebars there is the "Cosmic Power Pool" This Power Pool can be whatever the character wants whenever the character wants it.

So yeah, you can do that, thought I don't see it popping up all that often. Playing a low level Silver Surfer or something. I ran a "godling" once with a 40 pointer - could do anything he imagined with it. Not too common though.

[Lord Mhoram]

To answer the original question about field changeable pools - Ones I have played.

Gadget pool
Ch'i pool
Martial arts manuevers as powers pool (for the character that is my avatar)
Cosmic pool (the earlier mentioned godling)
Magic pool (the first character that got that -1 lim, I abuse pools, and wanted to restrain myself
Force pool (for a Jedi esque character)

[Champsguy]

To quote, "A character with thei Power Farmework establishes a pool of character points from which he can use to create any Power, or any Power with a given special effect.

In the pool sidebars there is the "Cosmic Power Pool" This Power Pool can be whatever the character wants whenever the character wants it.

So yeah, you can do that, thought I don't see it popping up all that often. Playing a low level Silver Surfer or something. I ran a "godling" once with a 40 pointer - could do anything he imagined with it. Not too common though.

All I did was change the BOLD on the quote.

Yes, a truly Cosmic VPP can do anything. But I'd be extremely reluctant to allow large cosmic power pools. For everything other than playing the Golden Glider, the Harbinger of the Planet Eater, I'd figure you needed a more limited special effect than "anything I want".

[Lord Mhoram]

Yes, a truly Cosmic VPP can do anything. But I'd be extremely reluctant to allow large cosmic power pools. For everything other than playing the Golden Glider, the Harbinger of the Planet Eater, I'd figure you needed a more limited special effect than "anything I want".

Oh yeah, I was just pointing out that it was "book-legal", not necessarily good :) Sorry if that wasn't clear.

In my nearly 20 years of gaming I've only seen three actual full blown Cosmic pools in the hands of a PC and two of those were mine - ;)

[megaplayboy]

my observations:
1. they're really darn useful, and probably indispensible for certain character concepts, like true gadgeteers and broadly defined sorceror types.
2. often the people who complain the most about them happen to be people most likely to abuse them when they have them(and thus they figure everyone will do what they do).
3. it helps to put some initial limits on the number of powers available, like INT/2, and to try to keep it within a fairly well-defined sfx.
4. the thing to crack down on is when the player wants to do stuff on the fly, just so they can play "spot" offense or defense--a firm refusal should be given after the first or second attempt to do so; it's not genre, it's not fair to the other players, and it's not fair to the game.
5.cosmic VPP is equivalent, cost-wise, to a multipower with 5 multi slots and 5 ultra slots(before any limitations are applied to the MP).
A normal VPP is equivalent cost-wise to a multipower with 5 ultra slots(or 2 multis and one ultra(say, an EB, a FF, and flight)), before any limitations are applied. Tack on the half-phase extra time, and RSR limitation, and the MP is actually cheaper.

[Lord Mhoram]

my observations:
2. often the people who complain the most about them happen to be people most likely to abuse them when they have them(and thus they figure everyone will do what they do).

*raises hand* :)


Hello, I'm Mhoram and I am a powergamer.

Well reformed for the most part. ;)

[lemming]

I am too effecient with VPPs as a player, so I don't run them anymore. As a GM I am leery of them. We don't usually have the "better than you" problem. The main problem is extreme versitility.
Heh. I've often played with the idea that I have to know the player for a bit and be able to trust them with a power pool. I've just recently started using a Power Pool with my character in zornwil's game. So far, I have not abused his trust. ;)

edit: Having just read LM's last post, we seem to have been on the same path. :D

[Outsider]

I usually GMed, and thus dont have a large amount of experience with cosmic VPPs as a player. In the one game I played where there was a cosmic VPP, it wasnt mine, and it the player who's character had it was (it seemed) allowed to do absolutely anything he wanted to with it*, which made all the other characters in the group little more than supporting cast in Cosmicman's adventure. There so he would have someone to look on admiringly, and provide his side extra phases if it came to combat. Whee.

I think it was more the fault of the GM for letting him do absolutely anything he pleased with his VPP than it was the VPP structure's fault. But I'm not sure. Cosmic VPPs seem ripe for abuse if the GM isnt willing to say "NO" frequently.



*
Precognitive clairvoyant N-ray vision. Made the stealthy/scouty character useless.

Buying skills as powers with his VPP, or possibly just buying many many levels with his existing (broad) skills and taking the penalties for using them for specifics. (ie The group comes upon an H-bomb that needs to be defused. ScienceGuy has an 18- KS in Nuclear Weapons Design and Construction, but Cosmicman has KS "Earthly Technology" on an 11- (3 points "scholar enhancer, plus 1 point in the KS) The GM says that ScienceGuy's skill is the specific one needed to defuse the bomb, and that the "ETech" KS would be at -20 for this very specific use. Cosmicguy says "OK, I switch my VPP to 30 levels with "ET" and have a 41-, minus 20 makes 21- to defuse the bomb!" then shoulders Scienceguy aside)

Using the VPP to set up triggered defences, then switching the pool away from the defence (but if he gets attacked, the triggered defences still go off and block it)

And so on.

[phydaux]

Stepping on stchick is just bad player form, period. It has nothing to do with VPPs.

My biggest peoblem with VPPs is when players who CLEARLY don't know the game rules inside and out, but still want to use them.

"Ok, you've finally confronted Master Villain."

"I use my VPP to construct a trap he can't escape from."

"OK, how are you doing that?'

"I just told you - I'm using my VPP."

"OK, um, what powers are you puting in your VPP?"

"My VPP can have ANY power it it. I use the powers that will create a trap that Master Villain can't escape from."

"Bob, EXACTLY what powers are you using?"

"Pfwt, I don't know. You're the GM, YOU figure it out."

[Hugh Neilson]

Stepping on stchick is just bad player form, period. It has nothing to do with VPPs.

BINGO! My magical powered VPP character is in a group with a mentalist and a Darkness character. His VPP has the limit "no mental powers" (as well as some other prohibitions I threw in), and the character is flashy, so doesn't consider Darkness effects.

The other players are an EP/Entangler (so I generally avoid entangles, though his SFX wouldn't be close to mine) and a Brick (no problems there - he often seems more versatile than me, somehow).

The fact is, "I can do anything Man" is boring. Throw some limits on your VPP, and your character. I have a list of powers he can't do, and the character himself isn't very creative, so I don't just come up with new things on the fly very often. He has a long list of things he can do.

Biggest surprise so far: We werein a dimensiopn-hopping scenario, surrounded by strange beings ordering us to surrender. My character is imetuous and impulsive, and has no idea what to do. If the others had surrendered, he probably would have. They all hesitate. He panics. [quick Ego roll - he remembers the others are here]

VPP change to Teleport, Area Effect, Selective, 1 hex area, Megascale. "We're all 5 km north." "Oh...we're all 5 km in a random direction I assume to be north."

Took some doing to return to that scenario...

ASIDE: SOme teamates don't appreciate random teleports in harbour towns, for some reason. Although my offer to try again seemed to eliminate the hesitation effect my teammates were under :)

[Chuckg]

My biggest surprise unleashed so far with my VPP was...

(The following is not the literal conversation, which was longer, and happened months ago so I don't remember it word-for-word anyway. This is just a sort of abstracted summary.)



'OK, while you are in the other dimension, trying to figure out how to help in its war with Vashtos' Dimension of Darkness, a dimensional portal opens up and an army of the necromancer-lord Vashtos comes out, led by some armored golem-juggernauts and death knights on flying steeds.'

'How big is the army?'

'Huge.'

'Right. OK, does my mystical awareness pick up anything?'

'These guys are all pumping as much black mana as the collective legions of Hell. And the pud infantry appears to be all zombies, ghouls, some vampire NCOs, etc.'

At this point, I add together Starguard's basic mentality, the remnants of the archangel-of-wrath trapped within her, the fact that just being *near* otherworldly evil causes her intense pain (it's called "some things really *shouldn't* be looked at with cosmic awareness, and she hasn't yet learned how to turn hers off"), and then I made an EGO roll.

The EGO roll came up '... and now she's going to do something reaaaaaaally impulsive.' (At the time, I had Novice Hero.)

So, I tell the DM 'Starguard flies up in the air over the whole battlefield, shining like a miniature supernova, screams something incomprehensibly angry-sounding in what you presume to be High Celestial, and expends all her power in one massive burst... and then faints, falling unconscious out of the sky.'

'What does the power burst do?'

'Mechanically, it's MegaScale Tunnelling. Special-effect wise, a giant crack in the earth just opened and swallowed the entire army of undead.

... except for the golem-juggernauts, death knights, and what few elite lead elements were composed of living troops, as she couldn't hit any of them without killing people.'

'In other words, you're leaving enough of the bad guys for the rest of the team to have something to fight.'

'Well, crap yeah. If I stole *all* the thunder, you wouldn't let me do this. But, I still get the huge drama moment, not to mention really improving the odds.'

'Yup. OK, approved.'

Please note -- I had an 80 point VPP, and I only needed 53 or so for the Tunnelling, and I dropped an entire legion of undead/demonic horrors into a giant gaping pit where they all died. (It was a /very/ deep hole.)

I also didn't *have* to faint... my VPP is 0 END, so mechanically-speaking I could have tossed that off without blinking. I just did that because, well, a) dramatically appropriate and b) having just hogged 99% of the kill count for myself in one shot, it would be really rude of me to hang around and clutter up the rest of the fight scene too.

[Outsider]

I heartily agree that limited VPPs are a lot more interesting.

One of my NPCs had a 60 point pool, 0 Phase/no skill change, but only for Teleportation. He could do pretty much anything that was based on Teleport (big 'T', the power, not little 't' the concept)

In a brief campaign I had 'primal magic' be VPP based, 0 phase, required skill to change, but limited such that the only power advantage available was "explosion" and the only power disads were Side Effect and a Variable Lim totaling -4 in either extra time or extra endurance. Some powers were unavailable too (certain stop signs/mag glasses)

[Metaphysician]

Yeah, VPPs are definitely not advised for inexperienced players.

Granted, Microman II, my first character, has one, but its a skill pool, so its not like complicated constructs need to be built with it.

[Lightray]

c) We're Not Gonna Wait, Dammit

Have your slots written up ahead of time and/or be able to write really damn fast between Phases, because the game will not wait while you flip through the design manual.

And it helps if you get as many slots pre-approved by the GM before the game as possible.
I go with this.

Default powers for the VPP are to be on the character sheet (with any defenses, etc. added in). If the players want, they can have a separate list of other powers to be reviewed beforehand.

If they can change it in play, and they want to, then they have to write down what they want to do. And the rest of us aren't waiting. That player's character just keeps losing Phases -- or Turns -- until I can review the written power.

The one time it came up, combat had been over for 5 minutes. Everybody learned their lesson.

I DO allow one character with a 5 pt Skill Pool to wing it. She can basically get one Skill at +1, one Skill Level, or something funky like one Autofire Skill, so it's not too delaying.

[Chuckg]

I go with this.

Default powers for the VPP are to be on the character sheet (with any defenses, etc. added in). If the players want, they can have a separate list of other powers to be reviewed beforehand.

If they can change it in play, and they want to, then they have to write down what they want to do. And the rest of us aren't waiting. That player's character just keeps losing Phases -- or Turns -- until I can review the written power.

The one time it came up, combat had been over for 5 minutes. Everybody learned their lesson.

I DO allow one character with a 5 pt Skill Pool to wing it. She can basically get one Skill at +1, one Skill Level, or something funky like one Autofire Skill, so it's not too delaying.

To be fair, it's a little easier for me, since the 'New Sentinels' game I play in is run over AIM chat.

IOW, /everything/ has to be written. Well, typewritten. :)

[Lord Mhoram]

I also didn't *have* to faint... my VPP is 0 END, so mechanically-speaking I could have tossed that off without blinking. I just did that because, well, a) dramatically appropriate and b) having just hogged 99% of the kill count for myself in one shot, it would be really rude of me to hang around and clutter up the rest of the fight scene too.

Nice. My group is like that, all of us. All of us have GMed for more than 15 years, so we know about things like that and try and adjust our personal styles so everyone has a good time. This group has been together (in one form or another) for almost 13 years- I hear horror stories about bad groups and realize just how blessed I am.

My best pool moment (the one that made me decide to retire my last pool based PC). We were at the climactic fight with the big baddie, who as I recall had a 75 or 80 pt VPP with a few limitations. I was playing the godling I mentioned before, Surge, - basically a Martial Artist with some supernatural defences and the pool.
While the rest of the team were beating on Shyra (the bad guy), Surge kept using his oddball powers to stymie the baddie. The Gm was obviously enjoying it, but the the character was getting more and more frustrated. At one point the GM just described a bolt of funky coruscating purple energy that he throws at me. I aborted, and I still don't know why other than instinct, to shift the pool to a full 40 points of Power D (loose construtions in those days).
After the fight I use my pool to transform Shyra into a normal with no powers. The GM commented that was what was coming my way when I aborted. I intuited what was coming and chose just the right thing.
But during the adventure, Surge's versitility kept messing up the plot. I could see it happening, usually in a minor way, and could tell the GM was shifting gears to keep tension level high - so I suggested I retire the character.

[Publius]

Microman II, my first character, has one, but its a skill pool, so its not like complicated constructs need to be built with it.I have always thought that this is the only way to really convey someone like Doc Savage or the downloaded skills of a Matrix-style game. Is it legal though? What I mean is that according to the standard rules can you have a Skill VPP? I recall looking it up in the FAQ at one point but I don't presently remember what conclusion I came to. It seems somehow to be potentially unbalanced however.

If I were asked about this as a GM on the spot, I would tell a PC that a Skill VPP would have to be far more narrow than just "skills" (i.e. a Science Skill VPP or a Language Skill VPP or something along those lines). But again, I am pretty tight-fisted when it comes to the VPPs.

[Chuckg]

a) Microman II is an android, with a library database.

b) It's only for skills that could plausibly be on skillchips, a la cyberpunk. (He doesn't actually chips, though, it's more like the Matrix thing.)

c) I dunno how it is by default, but in our game, Jeff said it was legal, so it's legal. Special DM Permission and all that. :)

[Chuckg]

But during the adventure, Surge's versitility kept messing up the plot. I could see it happening, usually in a minor way, and could tell the GM was shifting gears to keep tension level high - so I suggested I retire the character.

By this point in the narrative, I have already made at least three open offers to the entire gaming group that if they want me to retire Starguard at any time, they have but to call a group vote.

So far, every time I've said, I've gotten back a consensus on the order of 'You stop playing that character and we kill you."

Then again, I am cheating. I run her as so horribly, insufferably cute and yet not-annoying that you just can't bear to get rid of her... :)

Like you, LM, I am a reformed powergamer. But one thing I didn't lose in the redemption process was the knowledge that the more entertaining you are for the rest of the group, the more shit you can get away with. :D

[Lightray]

Is it legal though? What I mean is that according to the standard rules can you have a Skill VPP? I recall looking it up in the FAQ at one point but I don't presently remember what conclusion I came to. It seems somehow to be potentially unbalanced however.
I think I took the idea for Fermata (the 5 pt Skill Pool character) from the UNTIL Superpowers Database, so it's "legal" in the same way that the classic Rocket Punch is -- if your GM is crazy enough to allow it.

[Doug McCrae]

So this got me to wondering, in your experience, how are field-changeable VPPs most commonly used? Do they more often help games, or hurt them?Hurt. Every time.

[OddHat]

I have always thought that this is the only way to really convey someone like Doc Savage or the downloaded skills of a Matrix-style game. Is it legal though? What I mean is that according to the standard rules can you have a Skill VPP? I recall looking it up in the FAQ at one point but I don't presently remember what conclusion I came to. It seems somehow to be potentially unbalanced however.

If I were asked about this as a GM on the spot, I would tell a PC that a Skill VPP would have to be far more narrow than just "skills" (i.e. a Science Skill VPP or a Language Skill VPP or something along those lines). But again, I am pretty tight-fisted when it comes to the VPPs.

Well, the USPD and I think one or two other sources do offer them as options. Personally I treat it as a Stop Sign advantage on a Stop Sign power; it has to be looked at very carefully, and I have to really trust the player not to step on anyone's toes.
I kind of prefer to give Doc Savage types Scholar, a long list of KS and SS, skill levels with those KS and SS, and a few Open KS that (with permission) can be defined in play. I also allow cinematic skills like Science! and Knowledge!, which function in the same way for their fields as Universal Translator does for languages. It's more expesive than a skills VPP, but I think it better reflects the value of that kind of construct in my games.

[Publius]

I dunno how it is by default, but in our game, Jeff said it was legal, so it's legal. Special DM Permission and all that. :)I agree completely and it sounds like your character concept if nothing else is well-suited. I was just wondeing if it is like non-END powers in a EC Pool.

Since Lightray mentioned it was in the USPD I'd guess it is legal anyway.

Edit: Oddhat, that seems to put it into perspective. What do you mean by a cinematic skill though? Like a talent or Superskill?

[OddHat]

Edit: Oddhat, that seems to put it into perspective. What do you mean by a cinematic skill though? Like a talent or Superskill?

Kind of. In a "realistic" game world, scientists will be fairly specialized. They might have some skills outside of their field, but being an elecrical engineer does not imply that you can invent a hyperdrive. In a more cinematic world (say Silver Age), every Scientist seems to have a vast knowledge of every branch of Science. Remember the TV show Angel, where Fred the Physicist and Wesley the Linguist and Historian both seemed to have the ability to cross over into the other's fields? I'd say that both of them had the Cinematic Skills of Science! and Knowledge!, and probably a low level of Universal Translator with extra time.

Mechanically, all three are priced at 20 points for 9+Int/5 or less, +1 per point, and Science! and Knowledge! can not actually provide information at the same level of detail as the applicable SS or KS.

[Chuckg]

I agree completely and it sounds like your character concept if nothing else is well-suited. I was just wondeing if it is like non-END powers in a EC Pool.

Actually,I think it's more like Special Powers in a Multipower -- possible, but only with GM permission.

[Gary]

Kind of. In a "realistic" game world, scientists will be fairly specialized. They might have some skills outside of their field, but being an elecrical engineer does not imply that you can invent a hyperdrive. In a more cinematic world (say Silver Age), every Scientist seems to have a vast knowledge of every branch of Science. Remember the TV show Angel, where Fred the Physicist and Wesley the Linguist and Historian both seemed to have the ability to cross over into the other's fields? I'd say that both of them had the Cinematic Skills of Science! and Knowledge!, and probably a low level of Universal Translator with extra time.

Mechanically, all three are priced at 20 points for 9+Int/5 or less, +1 per point, and Science! and Knowledge! can not actually provide information at the same level of detail as the applicable SS or KS.


The game I'm playing allows the following:

1) If you have Universal Translator, it also acts as super linguist. You can spend 1 pt to have native fluency with any language with no roll necessary.

2) You can spend 15 pts for Worldly Scientist or Scholar or 10 pts for Worldly Jack of all Trades, or Traveller. It gives you a base 8- roll (which can't be increased for any reason) for any skill that you would reasonably know but isn't paid for. So someone with Worldy Scientist would give you an 8- roll for any science that he doesn't specifically have. This Uber skills enhancer also lowers the cost of any applicable skill by 1 pt in addition to the regular enhancer (1 pt minimum but you get the full skill roll for that point). So a scientist with Worldly Scientist along with regular Scientist would allow you to pay 1 pt for a 9 + Int/5 skill roll for any science skill.

3) For a 5 pt upgrade over (2), you can have the Universal versions of those enhancers. Universal allows you a 11- skill roll with any skill that isn't paid for but which you might reasonably know. So for a total cost of 23 pts (Universal Scientist plus regular Scientist), you can spend 1 pt for a full skill roll in any science and you have a 11- skill roll for any other science that you haven't paid points for. Similarly, you can have Universal Traveller plus regular Traveller for 18 pts and have a 11- skill for any reasonably large location that you haven't purchased (11- Manhattan is ok or maybe even 11- Chinatown, but getting a free 11- for Canal Street is just ridiculous).

[Metaphysician]

Well, the USPD and I think one or two other sources do offer them as options. Personally I treat it as a Stop Sign advantage on a Stop Sign power; it has to be looked at very carefully, and I have to really trust the player not to step on anyone's toes.
I kind of prefer to give Doc Savage types Scholar, a long list of KS and SS, skill levels with those KS and SS, and a few Open KS that (with permission) can be defined in play. I also allow cinematic skills like Science! and Knowledge!, which function in the same way for their fields as Universal Translator does for languages. It's more expesive than a skills VPP, but I think it better reflects the value of that kind of construct in my games.

You know, thats not a bad idea.

[OddHat]

You know, thats not a bad idea.

Thanks, glad you like it. :)

[WhammeWhamme]

All I did was change the BOLD on the quote.

Yes, a truly Cosmic VPP can do anything. But I'd be extremely reluctant to allow large cosmic power pools. For everything other than playing the Golden Glider, the Harbinger of the Planet Eater, I'd figure you needed a more limited special effect than "anything I want".

Does _that_ (comic book) character actually do half the stuff CVPP (RPG)characters are capable of? Really?

(No, I'm actually curious... all I've seen of him has him being a bog standard flying blaster... okay, a really powerful one, but kinda simple...)


As for me... For AtA I've required a 'limited power FX' limitation on all VPPs. This is so I don't feel bad about draconian enforcement (if needed). It's working out okay... for now. :)

[Chuckg]

In his own comic, the Silver Surfer has busted out the majorly freaky shit from time to time, from healing, to molecular sculpture, to cyberkinesis, to etc.

And what Doom did when he'd temporarily stolen the power of the Surfer was just plain all over the map. Killing people and then resurrecting them. dropping glaciers on Honolulu, bringing back the dinosaurs by turning back time on remnant dinosaur DNA and then letting time's normal flow revert, he was having a ball just playing around.

[OddHat]

Does _that_ (comic book) character actually do half the stuff CVPP (RPG)characters are capable of? Really?

(No, I'm actually curious... all I've seen of him has him being a bog standard flying blaster... okay, a really powerful one, but kinda simple...)


As for me... For AtA I've required a 'limited power FX' limitation on all VPPs. This is so I don't feel bad about draconian enforcement (if needed). It's working out okay... for now. :)

From time to time. For all the bad rap that VPPs get (and sometimes deserve) most comic book characters will come up with strange uses of their powers as they go from writer to writer. A few (Zatana, Doctor Strange, Doctor Fate, Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt, the Green Lanterns) seem to be able to pull whatever the story needs out of their bags, and others (the Silver Age Superman, the Silver Age Flash) can do almost anything within their SFX. A VPP is sometimes the best way to do that, and the Power Skill is also not a bad tool.

[Doug McCrae]

A few (Zatana, Doctor Strange, Doctor Fate, Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt, the Green Lanterns) seem to be able to pull whatever the story needs out of their bagsBut do you really want PCs to have that power in an rpg? The potential for abuse is huge.

[Chuckg]

But do you really want PCs to have that power in an rpg? The potential for abuse is huge.

IMO, anyone who can't make a judgement call in the middle of a game, and then stick with it, should not be sitting behind a DM's screen.

[OddHat]

But do you really want PCs to have that power in an rpg? The potential for abuse is huge.

On a personal note, my regular players are adults, and I've been GMing for over twenty years. With that group I'm not worried about a VPP derailing a game.

In a pick up game, a convention game, or with players I didn't know, I'm more cautious about allowing VPPs, and about what type of VPP I'll let pass.

[OddHat]

The game I'm playing allows the following:

1) If you have Universal Translator, it also acts as super linguist. You can spend 1 pt to have native fluency with any language with no roll necessary.

2) You can spend 15 pts for Worldly Scientist or Scholar or 10 pts for Worldly Jack of all Trades, or Traveller. It gives you a base 8- roll (which can't be increased for any reason) for any skill that you would reasonably know but isn't paid for. So someone with Worldy Scientist would give you an 8- roll for any science that he doesn't specifically have. This Uber skills enhancer also lowers the cost of any applicable skill by 1 pt in addition to the regular enhancer (1 pt minimum but you get the full skill roll for that point). So a scientist with Worldly Scientist along with regular Scientist would allow you to pay 1 pt for a 9 + Int/5 skill roll for any science skill.

3) For a 5 pt upgrade over (2), you can have the Universal versions of those enhancers. Universal allows you a 11- skill roll with any skill that isn't paid for but which you might reasonably know. So for a total cost of 23 pts (Universal Scientist plus regular Scientist), you can spend 1 pt for a full skill roll in any science and you have a 11- skill roll for any other science that you haven't paid points for. Similarly, you can have Universal Traveller plus regular Traveller for 18 pts and have a 11- skill for any reasonably large location that you haven't purchased (11- Manhattan is ok or maybe even 11- Chinatown, but getting a free 11- for Canal Street is just ridiculous).

Good options, very workable.

[JohnOSpencer]

The game I'm playing allows the following:

1) If you have Universal Translator, it also acts as super linguist. You can spend 1 pt to have native fluency with any language with no roll necessary.

2) You can spend 15 pts for Worldly Scientist or Scholar or 10 pts for Worldly Jack of all Trades, or Traveller. It gives you a base 8- roll (which can't be increased for any reason) for any skill that you would reasonably know but isn't paid for. So someone with Worldy Scientist would give you an 8- roll for any science that he doesn't specifically have. This Uber skills enhancer also lowers the cost of any applicable skill by 1 pt in addition to the regular enhancer (1 pt minimum but you get the full skill roll for that point). So a scientist with Worldly Scientist along with regular Scientist would allow you to pay 1 pt for a 9 + Int/5 skill roll for any science skill.

3) For a 5 pt upgrade over (2), you can have the Universal versions of those enhancers. Universal allows you a 11- skill roll with any skill that isn't paid for but which you might reasonably know. So for a total cost of 23 pts (Universal Scientist plus regular Scientist), you can spend 1 pt for a full skill roll in any science and you have a 11- skill roll for any other science that you haven't paid points for. Similarly, you can have Universal Traveller plus regular Traveller for 18 pts and have a 11- skill for any reasonably large location that you haven't purchased (11- Manhattan is ok or maybe even 11- Chinatown, but getting a free 11- for Canal Street is just ridiculous).

Good stuff, Gary! I may have to borrow this. One of my PCs is all about this.

John

[Gary]

Good stuff, Gary! I may have to borrow this. One of my PCs is all about this.

John


Thanks. :)

I can report that in actual gameplay, it balances out very well. The costs seem to match the value of what you get without the abusiveness of a skills pool.

You can also probably have a version of Worldly and Universal Well Connected, but the campaign I'm in has the GM assigning all contacts and favors. The PCs don't have to purchase any, but must simply roleplay well to get one.

[Sketchpad]

On a personal note, my regular players are adults, and I've been GMing for over twenty years. With that group I'm not worried about a VPP derailing a game.

In a pick up game, a convention game, or with players I didn't know, I'm more cautious about allowing VPPs, and about what type of VPP I'll let pass.
Amen to that :)

[Cheiro]

Great topic. I think in a regular game with players (and GM) you're familiar with it can be done effectively and add a lot to the story. Overshadowing another character's specialty is not something that is done among good players with a history together.
The versatility of a VPP certainly can be abused by players IF given the chance. I think it comes down to all involved recognizing that just beacause a character with a VPP CAN do something doesn't mean it SHOULD be done.
When playing a character with a VPP, I will typically have a couple of options that I present to the group (players and GM) and solicit feedback as to what my character should, and within the context of saying in character, would do.
Taking cues as to how the GM and players reacts to different suggestions frequently leads me to a conclusion that allows my character to be effective
(while staying true to the character's motivations), while not destroying a carefully crafted scenario the GM has put together.
I guess it just comes down to perception. I don't view the game as Player vs.
GM, or Player vs. Player. I feel like the GM has taken the time and effort to craft a story for my (and other players) benefit and want to contribute rather than destroy.
That's not to say I'm not for complicating things sometimes. Complicating, not destroying. I have no problem with a GM telling me that something I'm considering is no good. And that's the beauty of a VPP-there's a lot of other options.
GMing is tough. See the Murphy's Laws of GMing thread if you haven't checked it out. There's almost no way for a GM to anticipate every possible reaction by every character. So throwing the versatility of a VPP in the mix among a couple (or several) of the characters makes that task even tougher.
Doing things that undermine the GM's scenarios, even if legal, will lead to oversimplistic and repetitive stories. The GM will lose the desire to do something different or unique if it keeps getting shut down because of a character's VPP.
That's my take.

[rbezold]

For what its worth:

About 15 years ago I was a player in a game in Melbourne Australia. There was another player who had a character called Darklord. Both player and character were obnoxiously pompous. Darklord had a _long_ multipower that the GM was starting to feel was abusive. I made a suggestion to him: MAKE Darklord take a VPP. The rationale was this: Darklords magic at this point was anything he wanted without needing to wait or roll for it. OK, fine. His magic VPP has those advantages, but the total real cost of the VPP cannot exceed campaign limits. In this case, the active point limit was 75, so Darklord wound up with a 40pt VPP. He was not happy :eg:

I have no problem with VPP in my games, I just remind players that the control cost counts towards the point limit. Abusive players tend to run screaming out the door when they hear that one.

[Eosin]

IME, there are two pitfalls to VPPs.

1. People who either don't know the game or have difficulty making decisions when presented with multiple options trying to run them.

2. Exceedingly efficient players running VPPs tend to overshadow other players.

I allow VPPs in my games but with the basic requirement that all slots are predifined. By all slots, I mean you have a standard attack, defense, and misc stuff predefined but if the situations warrants it I will allow creation on the fly for unique events like --- "Gee, I never thought to buy LS usable by others so that I could take my team into space but my pawer concept does revolve around forcefields."

The worst for me is when people buy cheesey powers within a gross pool.
Example:
DM: Granite man stands before the team and realizing that he is about to enter combat he summons the rock of the earth to protect him.

VPP Player: I am gonna hit him with a linked attack - tunneling and a low dice autofire killing attack. The tunneling should shuck him out the "earth armor" then he won't have any DEF to resist the KA.

[Lightray]

VPP Player: I am gonna hit him with a linked attack - tunneling and a low dice autofire killing attack. The tunneling should shuck him out the "earth armor" then he won't have any DEF to resist the KA.
bah. Just because your power is in a VPP doesn't make it do stuff it doesn't do. And Tunneling gets through barriers -- unless Granite Man armored up by Entangling himself, all VPP Boy did was create a GM Mocks Me For Next Phase power in his VPP.

I welcome that kind of abusive power in my games. ('cause normally it's the other way 'round)

[Tom Carman]

"With great power comes great responsibility." So if the player is irresponsible, don't allow them that sort of power. My characters are usually the ones with the VPP, but GM doesn't bug me because I'm pretty circumspect about using them.

Example: the gadgeteer - high INT, 1-2 universal skill levels, Scientist, and a raft of science skills; must invent a gadget to use it. Usually starts an adventure using a gadget weapon with Charges; any rebuilds of that weapon have the same AP, and Charges (spent and unused) carry over - use up all the Charges and the RP of the weapon is "locked out" until he can get new supplies. New gadgets must be within his science skill set, and buildable with the limited kit of components he carries plus whatever can be reasonably added from the immediate environment (fighting in a junkyard can be fun).

Example: credit-card-at-the sporting-goods-store. All VPP items must be real-life commercial products, and reasonably within your budget. Real-world limitations like waiting periods for guns will apply. Proximity to appropriate stores and several hours of shopping time are required.

[Chuckg]

Example: credit-card-at-the sporting-goods-store. All VPP items must be real-life commercial products, and reasonably within your budget. Real-world limitations like waiting periods for guns will apply. Proximity to appropriate stores and several hours of shopping time are required.

A character in the campaign I currently play in, New Sentinels, has precisely this -- "Shopping Pool".

Of course, when you're a multibillionaire with Contacts, your available list of 'stuff I can buy with money' goes on up to things like NASA-issue space suits, Psi-Tech(tm) mental defense foci, and customized Ferraris.

But that's why the limitations on his VPP are a little smaller than the limits usually found on a Gadget Pool, as he not only has a wider range of kewl stuff, but he can change point allocations more easily. (He still has to leave combat in order to go fetch one during a fight, but when you have MegaScale Teleport, zipping back to your Warp-Cave to grab something and then getting back into the fight takes, oh, 3 Phases tops.)

[zornwil]

Heh. I've often played with the idea that I have to know the player for a bit and be able to trust them with a power pool. I've just recently started using a Power Pool with my character in zornwil's game. So far, I have not abused his trust. ;)

edit: Having just read LM's last post, we seem to have been on the same path. :D
There's a few VPPs running around, from a small gadget-based one for Laughton to Sammy and Spectrum (lemming's character). Seems pretty controlled, people seem reasonably geared to SFX. Interestingly, Sammy changed from an MP to a VPP as his XP count increased, while when Troll reorganized into Nexus he dropped his two VPPs and consolidated into an MP.

[CBikle]

Anyone ever run a convention game and have a PC with a VPP ?

How'd it work out ?

[Red Knight]

OK..I have posted another thread in which I created a Green Lantern-esque character. I won't bore you with the details... other than to say that I use Power Pool.
Even though I realize that this is a thread about VPP's, I just thought that I would add my two-cents. I played around with different ways to create the Green Lantern feel. I tried the multi-power route and found that the mutlipower became rather lengthy so I settled on a VPP. The ironic thing is that all I used the VPP for was to provide the power for a set number of abilities. I realized that I had a MPP labeled as a VPP.

I am in the process of modifying the character to more accurately represent what I want to do...
Under the new MPP design I will have eight powers under the MPP. I created a EC to cover the other "Lantern" effects that are common... IE Life Support and Armor. This allows a feel, that for me, seems to fit the character concept I had. I threw on VARIABLE EFFECT to represent the different "looks" of the powers. It was Shakespeare who wrote, "A rose by any other name...". In one of the Green Lantern Comic Book issues, Klye Rayner actually states that the power is the same only the way it is presented changes.

What does all this mean??? I think that true VPP's are difficult to use and don't always fit. It would be easy to make a character with a VPP and call them Green Lantern or whatever else you think of. I would be interested to see if anybody else built a "Green Lantern" and how they did it.

[OddHat]

I would be interested to see if anybody else built a "Green Lantern" and how they did it.

My standard Hero (350 point) and galactic level (750 point) versions of a Green Lantern tribute ("the Light") can be found through the links both to the web page and thread in my sig. There is also the JLA Animated Characters thread with the animated GL. As to how you simulate a GL type mechanically, that's really up to the player and the GM. An EC plus a MP and a small VPP or a high Power skill would probably be the most point efficient.

[D?M]

Had a player once in my group, I wasnt DMing, pretty cool guy.
Outside of the RPG sessions, he had no life...spent most of his time building spells, manuevers and such for his characters. Might say he loved to crunch stuff and go for the loopholes.
Every character had a VPP.

A Bruce Lee-type master who disappeared from the public world, taught his bastard son all of his knowledge. Master of Martial Arts had himself a 10-20 pt VPP of techniques.

Mundane doctor finds a sacred book, giving its holder/protector the knowledge of all things past. Had himself clairsentience with a book focus, but also a VPP of magic spells.

Vigilante based or almost a complete copy of the Blue Moon Killer, VPP of weapons and gear.

Macgyver-type, skilled in many things and more, carried a VPP for gadgets and stuff.

See a pattern?
Other than creating these monsters, he never abused them. Thats where I believe is the GM's call on VPPs.

I attempted to create a mage once with a VPP but the GM turned me down, stating two VPP characters was too much. Further stated, he once played a VPP character and found it to be so easy to abuse it.
Hence, no VPP.

[Red Knight]

I just had an interesting idea for a Limiter that could be added to a "Green Lantern-esque" VPP..

The Active cost of the powers could not be greater than the wielders total ability to use the power....

The Active cost of a power in the VPP could not exceed the total of WIILL + SKILL (Power Manipulation or something). This would represent that you may have the galaxy's most powerful weapon but that it is only as good as the willpower behind it.

[D?M]

Draconia was her name.
Based on the Green Lantern design of some cosmic powered item giving the bearer vast powers.
In this case, guardians were entrusted with harnessing powers of their benefactor (a trapped Warp Dragon, a cosmic-level beast), and using them to protect their respective territories.
Of course, the enemies of the Dragon, the ones who entrapped the benevolent beast, considered all disciples of the beast to be enemies.

VPP and Multipower with a Obvious focus.
Did not take the Independent focus limitation, hated to think she was nothing if the ring was confiscated.
If the focus was nabbed, she could still use some of the powers but they cost a lot more END to use.

[Red Knight]

Did not take the Independent focus limitation, hated to think she was nothing if the ring was confiscated.
If the focus was nabbed, she could still use some of the powers but they cost a lot more END to use.

That's an interesting twist... how did you work out the limiters?? So you made the focus (ring) a booster of sorts??

The only way I can think of doing it would be to use the Adder for Double END and then tack on only when "Ring" is not persent... Am I close??

I really like the idea....

[OddHat]

That's an interesting twist... how did you work out the limiters?? So you made the focus (ring) a booster of sorts??

The only way I can think of doing it would be to use the Adder for Double END and then tack on only when "Ring" is not persent... Am I close??

I really like the idea....

One way to do it: take a variable limitation on all powers boosted by the ring, defined as either OIF:Ring or Double End Cost. With XP or by conception, the character could also buy 0 End as a naked advantage on multiple powers, and then use the Ring as a Focus limit on that 0 End advantage.