Character Creation WHOOPS!

[CrosshairCollie]

Have you (or have you been in a game where) something that was very appropriate for a power was accidentally left off? How did you (or the GM in question) handle it? This isn't the 'Man, I wish I'd bought Power Defense!' take, it's more of the 'whoops, we misbuilt this power'.

I was proofreading a brick (a 350 remake of an old character) earlier tonight, and it occured to me that I hadn't put 'Restrainable' on his Brick Tricks Multipower, which it should logically have (can't do the Sonic Slam hand-clap if you can't swing your arms, after all). If something like this happened in a game, how would you do it?

Have them play it as it should be, then do a little 'edit' and give them the points to spent?
Leave it as is?

Curiously yours,
CC

[nexus]

My biggest mistake along these lines was Da Bomb, a mutant who could create explosions at will. He biggest attack was literally exploding and reforming awhile later. Thing was, I forgot to get Personal Immunity on this attack....

Just for laughs, I stuck with it (He was a throw away villian anyway) and it turns out when he used the power for the first time. It was also the last time since he didn't have any Resistant Defense either. So Da Bomb exploded, leveled most of the building, hurt a few of the PCs and never showed up again.

[CrosshairCollie]

My biggest mistake along these lines was Da Bomb, a mutant who could create explosions at will. He biggest attack was literally exploding and reforming awhile later. Thing was, I forgot to get Personal Immunity on this attack....

Just for laughs, I stuck with it (He was a throw away villian anyway) and it turns out when he used the power for the first time. It was also the last time since he didn't have any Resistant Defense either. So Da Bomb exploded, leveled most of the building, hurt a few of the PCs and never showed up again.

"Terrific, Daffy! They loved it! They want more!"
"I know, I know ... but I can only do it once."

[nexus]

"Terrific, Daffy! They loved it! They want more!"
"I know, I know ... but I can only do it once."

:lol:

[Rapier]

- Characters are locked to what's on the sheet the minute we sit down at the table. It may not be very fair, but its the only way you can run things. Otherwise, you can end up redesigning a character at the table, and that isn't a lot of fun for the rest of the group. There are enough rules judgements to be made without adding in character/power redesigns.

- Everyone gets a free rebuild within the first three games. Sometimes what you put down on paper, just doesn't work or doesn't work as you envisioned.

- Most of the time a bunch of those changes would be limitations, which are no probs to work in after a game. Take the lim and spend the points. If there was a power or an advantage that was missed and they didn't have enough points for it I would give em the points on credit and let them pay it off over the next few games.

[Blue]

We always let people touch up their characters after the first game. Tweaking is pretty reasonable, I think.

[Rapier]

My biggest mistake along these lines was Da Bomb, a mutant who could create explosions at will. He biggest attack was literally exploding and reforming awhile later. Thing was, I forgot to get Personal Immunity on this attack....

Just for laughs, I stuck with it (He was a throw away villian anyway) and it turns out when he used the power for the first time. It was also the last time since he didn't have any Resistant Defense either. So Da Bomb exploded, leveled most of the building, hurt a few of the PCs and never showed up again.
That's so weird. My exploder guy was Nuke. He didn't have PI either. But since he was a villain I just waved it. He should have had it, and points don't matter for villains. :)

[OddHat]

Before Steve added the ruling that AOE Hand attacks needed personal immunity, I created a few characters that in theory must have spent a lot of time punching themselves.

I also created characters with HA NNDs who, once that rulling came down, turned out not to have been able to do nearly as much damage as I had thought.

One of my favorite PCs had a limit on one of his powers that I later found out was incorrectly applied (the power was in a MP that had 3* End Cost built in, but the power itself only cost End to activate; that, it turns out, is illegal).

Nothing as good as the Human Bomb, but plenty of minor rules mistakes. :)

[phydaux]

I once spent two hours helping a new player create a brick, then after the game started I realised the character had NO rPD/rED.

[philnicau]

Our group always presumes that the first Adventure of any campaign (or the first appearance of any new player) is a pilot adventure and thereby allows tweaking of their powers and abilities without requiring a campaign specific reason.

[Magmarock]

My biggest mistake along these lines was Da Bomb, a mutant who could create explosions at will. He biggest attack was literally exploding and reforming awhile later. Thing was, I forgot to get Personal Immunity on this attack....

Just for laughs, I stuck with it (He was a throw away villian anyway) and it turns out when he used the power for the first time. It was also the last time since he didn't have any Resistant Defense either. So Da Bomb exploded, leveled most of the building, hurt a few of the PCs and never showed up again.

My only question is, how did the guy know he had the power? :stupid: :nonp:

"I... I just know I could blow up if I really, really want to!" :D


Mags

[nexus]

My only question is, how did the guy know he had the power? :stupid: :nonp:

"I... I just know I could blow up if I really, really want to!" :D


Mags

His fist exploded when he punched, he "pushed" that power and it extended to his entire body and hit everyone surrounding him. He figured he would just reform like his fists did. Unforunately for him, he didn't. Da Bomb wasn't too smart and had only gotten his powers a few weeks ago. Call it a critical failure on a power skill roll.

[Enforcer84]

My Lightning Projector, Captain Tempest, also failed to have Resistant defenses.
He got bit by an alligator and lost his leg.

[Gary Ciaramella]

My character Spitfire had energy absorbtion of fire to his body... but he had no defense to go along with it. First time I used the power, going into a burning barn to heal himself during a mission, his power worked and he gained body from the absorbtion... but he lost them faster from the damage he took from the burning barn and he burnt to death.

*sigh*

[Publius]

We always let people touch up their characters after the first game. Tweaking is pretty reasonable, I think.I Completely agree.

Often it is not the first run through the character that is the best. As long as the players don't create some whole new character I allow them to tweak, sometimes even a radical (as in "root") restructuring of their points or abilities (for instance a speedster change his main movement ability from Running based to a Flight-based, must be in contact with a surface). If they had used a specific power in the game however, I do require them to keep it (unless it could be counted as a single use Power Skill kind of thing).

I am playing this weekend (YES!) with a new player in my group, a young lady that does not know the rules of Hero (apparently she does know the White Wolf system, so she is not a totally new gamer). Because of limited time and the fact we get together so infrequently, I will be putting together her character based on her description. I fully expect, in fact I would disappointed if she does not, want to re-do her character after the first session.

[Mantis]

Sometimes, in the comics, characters learn/discover new ways of using their power, or come up with a new power trick, in the middle of an adventure. In game terms, many of these experiences are simply the spending of accumulated experience points. However, occasionally characters are given a more radical "make over". Some significant event occurs which changes some fundamental aspect of the character, although it leaves the majority of the character intact (X-Men's Beast is one example that comes to mind). In game terms, this could result in a character redesign in the middle of the campaign, and not necessarily due to an "oops", either.

I have had this happen to a character of mine, who became the target of Vampires and gained some vampiric powers to go with his flame powers. Of course, I got some disads too (I went a little 'batty' :D ), but nevertheless the character was altered in a fundamental way.

So when a character turns out to have an "oops", have him/her/it captured by arch-super-villian-mutant Dr DNA, whose fiendish experimentations leave Rubber Boy (the Brick with no rPd/rED) transformed into DinoBoy, completely covered in hard scales but with a new bucketload of Limitations. Reversing the physical changes and limitations (but leaving the defences) becomes a campaign thread, at the end of which DinoBoy becomes Vulcanized Boy, having won the heart of a beautiful lady DNA scientific expert in DNA in spite of his Hideous Appearance (15-, major negative reaction, etc). She is able to reverse the negative effects of Dr DNA's tampering, but the former Rubber Boy has earnt enough XP to be able to afford to leave the defences.

In other words, have a suitably powerful being (Asgardian Gods, Merlin, Alien Scientists, Extra-Dimensional Being, etc) pluck the character out of the game, Do Something ExtraOrdinary, and plonk the character back, Forever Changed By The Experience.

Remember, in comics, nothing is permanent, nothing lasts forever, and even Death can be a mere temporary thing!

[Publius]

Yeah I guess in the Rubber Boy situation, that is probably the best way to go; that also goes better with the "Whoops" supposition that this thread started with. Often these kinds of transmutations can become the basis for great story ideas.

I was thinking more along the lines of the fine attunement of a particular character. That was why my players have to stick with what gets used in the game (the effects, i.e. outcome not the specific build). If you find out that your tunnelling is not what you had really intended on (because of some rules interpretation or whatever the player was unaware of) or a better way to construct some ability for neat effect rather than crass advantage.

If a speedster later realizes that flight with "must be in contact with a surface" lets the character run up walls, over water etc. I'll be sympathetic and allow the change because that is an example of cool stuff that speedsters are known for. On the other hand when someone says "If I add this limitation I can get an extra 2d6 damage to my megablow and be the most powerful guy on the block" they have just megablown their chances.

[sinanju]

My only question is, how did the guy know he had the power? :stupid: :nonp:

"I... I just know I could blow up if I really, really want to!" :D

Mags

How does _any_ new hero/villain know what all his powers and limitations are?

"Hah! I'm Captain Steel! I'm invulnerable to----aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggghhh! Get him off me! Get him off me!"

[Captain Steel learns a valuable lesson: his character sheet includes defenses with the limitation: Not vs Canines]

[Arkham]

I let my players tweek their characters if they forgot to
add a lim, or something like that. Especially if by special
effect I would enforce it anyway. 'Normal Fire Guy' has a
power to burn things, but they are in the San Francisco bay,
unless it is intended to be magical waterproof fire then it
won't work. Even if the player forgot to add the lim. At that
point you might as well take the lim and save the points.

[Rapier]

I am playing this weekend (YES!) with a new player in my group, a young lady that does not know the rules of Hero (apparently she does know the White Wolf system, so she is not a totally new gamer). Because of limited time and the fact we get together so infrequently, I will be putting together her character based on her description. I fully expect, in fact I would disappointed if she does not, want to re-do her character after the first session.
With my first intro to champions a mate helped me build my first character (the dreaded "How high do you want your DEX?"). He helped me build the powers that I described. I was a ArchAngel/Mentalist type who has always invisible. From how I described the powers to him he built it as an EB. After the first adventure I sat down with the GM and we switched it to an EGO Attack. While he designed EXACTLY what I told him I wanted, I didn't know enough about the system to describe EXACTLY what I wanted.

While I am sure you will, please discuss with her the various options for powers (EB vs EGO Attack) after the game. :)

[Theron]

The first time I tried to run Champions (tried as in, tried to convince my best friend to abandon V&V for something different, that is), he refused to take any Disads for his character (based on his V&V character) whatsoever. His rationale was that in V&V the guy had no weaknesses, so he wasn't going to take any Disads.

Since this was right about when second edition came out, he insisted on playing a 100 point super with a wimpy 6d6 EB, Invisibility, and barely anything else.

My PC, Troubadour was supposed to be a savvy, streetwise guy, but I forgot to buy the requisite skill for him. When I realized this, I decided to run with it, since he really was more of an ivory tower sort of guy than a gritty urban avenger. So, he thinks he's streetwise. Thankfully, Black Hercules takes pity on the Fool...

[KA.]

I was proofreading a brick (a 350 remake of an old character) earlier tonight, and it occured to me that I hadn't put 'Restrainable' on his Brick Tricks Multipower, which it should logically have (can't do the Sonic Slam hand-clap if you can't swing your arms, after all). If something like this happened in a game, how would you do it?



I let my players tweek their characters if they forgot to
add a lim, or something like that. Especially if by special
effect I would enforce it anyway. 'Normal Fire Guy' has a
power to burn things, but they are in the San Francisco bay,
unless it is intended to be magical waterproof fire then it
won't work. Even if the player forgot to add the lim. At that
point you might as well take the lim and save the points.


First, good topic, CrosshairCollie.

Second,
I don't mean this as an attack on the posters I quoted, but this sort of thing seems a bit like cheese to me.
(It may depend on how you run your games, though.)
I allow a certain amount of leeway, both positive and negative, based on SFX.
In other words, if you have Fire powers, you don't have to buy some extra Transform to set a piece of paper on fire, or light a gas stove, or whatever.
On the other hand, if you use your Fire Blast in a garage filled with Gas cans and oily rags, you may end up with a "Side Effect" that you did not get points for.:eg:
I try to play this as fairly as possible, so that SFX is neither an advantage nor a hindrance to the player, it is just a bit of color that keeps all the characters from being the same.
On that basis, I would find it a little cheap if one of my players wanted a Limitation that their Pyrokinesis power would not work on Asbestos, or Halon, or an Ocean full of water. I consider that under the SFX umbrella, not a Limitation that is worth points.
The same with the fact that your STR based Brick Tricks are "restrainable".
For one thing, I think that Restrainable means "Restrainable by fairly normal means".
Sure, I can stop the Hulk from tearing up the asphalt and Entangling someone with a sheet of it.
All I have to do is Overpower the Hulk!
That isn't exactly the same task as pouring glue over Hawkman's wings.
Basically any power that is based on a Characters's own muscle power is "restrainable", if you have someone strong enough to hold them, but I don't think they should get a Limitation for them.

I know this was just an example, so I am not trying to make this into an Inquistion. :)

And, if your world does not allow the benefits of SFX, then it should not enforce the limitations either, without getting the points for them. :thumbup:

Really, I am just talking about the way I do it. ;)

On to the main topic of the thread.

I would not allow a rewrite at the table, but between sessions I don't have a problem with it. I give my players several chances to tweak their characters.

My only real limit is on "Power Poaching".

Ex.:
Player A designs a Martial Artist.
Player B designs a Flying Energy Blaster.

After the first session, Player A says "I want my character to be able to fly too! That was really cool!"
Me: "There is nothing in your concept that says you should have Flight.
You already have, extra Running, Leaping, and a higher SPD.
You can move just as fast as Player B, you just don't fly."
Player A: "But it's coooooool!"
Me: :mad:

Not that I require each character to have a completely unique set of powers with no overlap. I just don't want one Player to be able to do everything better than every other player. I like the Martian Manhunter just fine on Justice League, but I don't think I would want him in my campaign.
I think it is important for every player to be "the best" at something, or unique in some way.

But other than that, tweaking is just fine with me. It is about playing the character you want, not an engineering contest, to see who can come up with the most perfect design the first time out.

I would rather see the Characters build up within the game if possible though.

So, the Brick with no Resistant Defense will need to tackle the thugs and the Energy Blast guys, and not go up against GunBlade the Living Killing Attack for a while. As he gains some XP, he can start "working out in the Danger Room" to become more resistant.

An NPC villain like DaBomb would pull a Sandman/Dr. Manhattan:
"My atoms were so scattered that it took me weeks to recreate my physical form.
But now my powers are stronger than ever. My blast doesn't even effect me!"

I think that working around the "missing" power could provide some really good roleplaying opportunities.
Maybe the Brick doesn't tell his teammates that he is not bulletproof.
They start to wonder if he might be cowardly, or a pacifist, or afraid of guns due to some childhood trauma.
Or, they will be shocked if he actually gets shot and starts bleeding!
Considering how hard it is to really kill someone, both in Champions and the Comics, I don't think there are too many powers that are "life and death" to a character if they aren't in the first build.
And if they are, that can make things fun too! :D

KA.

[nexus]

Re:Restrainable

Now, I do allow Restrainable on things like "Brick Tricks" depending on the power that is used to construct them. For example the NND "Thunderclap" EB.

Why?

Because I feel is more limited than a "Normal" EB. The character can't use it when Grabbed, Entangled, unable to move, etc. That they are really strong doesn't figure. Following that logic really strong/High DCV characters should get a lesser value for Accesible Focus since its less likely they'll be disarmed.

[Supreme]

In all of our games we have a strict one-free-re-write rule which basically says that at any time (preferrably in the beginning of the game) you can significantly re-write a character. The purpose of this is to avoid problems like this. We also allow fairly significant re-writes of powers if people are pumping EPs into it. Everyone understands that the purpose isn't to maximize a character's efficiency against specific obstacles in the campaign (i.e., villains), but to allow for more fair treatments of the underlying concepts of the characters.

[Rapier]

In all of our games we have a strict one-free-re-write rule which basically says that at any time (preferrably in the beginning of the game) you can significantly re-write a character. The purpose of this is to avoid problems like this. We also allow fairly significant re-writes of powers if people are pumping EPs into it. Everyone understands that the purpose isn't to maximize a character's efficiency against specific obstacles in the campaign (i.e., villains), but to allow for more fair treatments of the underlying concepts of the characters.
Yep. The radiation accident/XP spend/rewrite is a tried and true method. It also requires some kind of in game trigger. If a player wants to do a rewrite I will be more than happy to work something into the next half dozen games that could trigger it. Even then, the new powers must be roughly related to the old (eg cant go from brick to mentalist).

[KA.]

Re:Restrainable

Now, I do allow Restrainable on things like "Brick Tricks" depending on the power that is used to construct them. For example the NND "Thunderclap" EB.

Why?

Because I feel is more limited than a "Normal" EB. The character can't use it when Grabbed, Entangled, unable to move, etc. That they are really strong doesn't figure. Following that logic really strong/High DCV characters should get a lesser value for Accesible Focus since its less likely they'll be disarmed.

I concede that this is an area that should be looked at on a case by case basis.
But, just for the sake of argument ;)
what about a concept like Glue Gun Bunny?

A Punisher clone that relies on all kinds of weapons and devices bought as OAF,
who does have one inherent power Clinging 60 STR, 0 End, Persistent?
I mean he could be disarmed, it is just extremely difficult to do.
Even when he is unconscious.

Not an argument against you, nexus, just an argument in favor of a thorough case by case analysis. :)

KA.

[nexus]

I concede that this is an area that should be looked at on a case by case basis.
But, just for the sake of argument ;)
what about a concept like Glue Gun Bunny?

A Punisher clone that relies on all kinds of weapons and devices bought as OAF,
who does have one inherent power Clinging 60 STR, 0 End, Persistent?
I mean he could be disarmed, it is just extremely difficult to do.
Even when he is unconscious.

Not an argument against you, nexus, just an argument in favor of a thorough case by case analysis. :)

KA.

Not sure the power construction is 100 percent, but I see where you're going with it. Now, IMO, Glue Gun Bunny would still get his OAF limitation. Its hard to disarm him, yes. But in a Champions game people with 60 Strength (Or a powerful disarm Exert Manuver) aren't impossible to come by or even exceptionally rare in some games. His foci can still be targetted and destroyed in combat or by Area of Effect attacks, etc. Most characters would be exceptionally hard to disarm or restrain by the normal population. Glue Gun Bunny has paid extra points to harder to disarm than normal so I don't think that costs him his Focus limitation.

Edit: Actually, on second thought it seems like we're pretty much in agreement on this that its a case by case thing, but we just have a different view on the examples put so far.

[CrosshairCollie]

I concede that this is an area that should be looked at on a case by case basis.
But, just for the sake of argument ;)
what about a concept like Glue Gun Bunny?

A Punisher clone that relies on all kinds of weapons and devices bought as OAF,
who does have one inherent power Clinging 60 STR, 0 End, Persistent?
I mean he could be disarmed, it is just extremely difficult to do.
Even when he is unconscious.

Not an argument against you, nexus, just an argument in favor of a thorough case by case analysis. :)

KA.

Sure. That's not gonna help against an Entangle, after all. ;) There's also still Teleport Useable As Attack as a disarming technique ... Dispels defined as disassembling the gun ("At least you still have ahold of the handle ..."), lotsa stuff. :)

[Metaphysician]

Not to mention the good old fashion "break the thing" option.

Plus, he'd have to have a *lot* of Foci for 60 STR Persistent Clinging to be cheaper than the Focus cost, and he'd still suffer from alot of Focus-related disadvantages ( not having Foci on him at a given time, for instance ).