The New Avengers - Good Or Bad, Threat Or Menace?

[Vigil]

Hi all,

Well, I just read the first issue of the New Avengers and I really can't see what all the fuss, or the necessity for the relaunch, is all about. To me it reads like The Ultimates lite...with one 1/3 less cynicism but all the pretension!

Sure, this is only the first issue but I don't see why this story couldn't have been told in regular continuity save for writer's vanity. Even then, a mini-series would suffice. Hell, look at Supreme Powers. It's been 12 issues and they haven't even formed the team...or done anything, really! Why, in a mini series, Bendis could milk getting the team together for maybe 2 years. It would probably be year 4 or 5 before they even get around to fighting anyone.

On the plus side, David Finch's art is up to it's usually glossy but kinda generic standard. Again, Jim Lee lite.

I don't know folks, maybe I'm too old school Avengers but I miss the days when the Avengers were entertaining and, maybe, relevant. Now it seems they have to be "realistic" and that's no fun at all.

But those are my thoughts. What are yours? What works? What doesn't? This New Avengers has been cookin' for a while. Was it worth the wait?

Vigil

[Myrlyn]

I started collecting the Avengers again when Busiek and Perez were doing the series. It just hasn't been the same since that partnership ended on the series. Marvel continues to butcher and destroy the comics I have loved for over 25 years. And the way the deaths that Bendis wrote for Scott Lang, Hawkeye, Vision and Jack of Hearts (all characters I loved) were just plain wrong. They completely lacked the heroic endings each of these characters deserved. And the whole new Captain Britain thing came off as being so contrived. Bendis needs to take a long holiday and stay away from Marvel titles for a while so that these characters can go on without his mucking up the formulas that worked for so long with these characters.

[Vigil]

Those are, essentially, my thoughts. I started collecting the Avengers as a kid in the early 70's during the Roy Thomas and then Steve Englehart runs. I think what was demonstrated back then and has been in all of the great Avengers scribes, and Busiek is high in the pantheon, is a respect for the Avengers as characters and for their continuity. Take Bob Harras, for example. He penned one of the Avengers darkest stories, the seige of Avengersd mansion by the Masters of Evil. It was a grim, dark and disturbing storyline but he wrote it in such a way as to elevate, not denegrate, the Avenger's heroism. It would have been real easy to be cynical and dark and self indlugent in writing that story but, as good writers do, he rose above the basest and most gratuitous instincts to tell a great story of heroism under fire. Bendis demonstrates none of that. I find his cynical self indulgent portrayal of Captain America particularly odious. Maybe it's just not hip and cool and cynical enough to have Cap actualy stand for ideals greater than self interest. I don't know this just isn't the Avengers that I know and love.

Vigil

[megaplayboy]

Nobody seems to know who "nunchuck guy" is on the cover...
though...

spoilers...



DD does appear in civvie ID in ish one.

[Hermit]

I have it, and actually... like it. Oh, I don't like how we GOT here, I think Disassembled has more plot/characterization holesthan a golf course, but judging the book by its own merit?

Pretty good. The set up seems to make sense so far, I actually liked the art. There are some lines that made me smile, and I'm glad to see humor is not absent from this new comic entirely ( I was afraid it was going to be gloom and doom).

The pacing is a bit slower than I like, but only a bit (and I think it probably does show that we are now often in a world of 'trades') but the characters seem to be presented well thus far. Oh sure, Cap's a bit cranky, but that's understandable. At least he's actually DOING something besides looking sad and confused.

I think maybe Bendis, now that he has his favorites, will pick it up a bit and this has potential. I still do NOT like Marvel's WAY of getting to this point, but now that we're here, I see some interesting times ahead.


That does not, however, mean I don't want a certain Archer returned post haste.

[Blue]

Why end the series? Hype.
Why reboot the series? Too valuable a franchise not to continue it.

Hated the way they ended it.
Like the first issue so far.

That's about it.

[Kristopher]

Shades of "Death of Superman".

And that one sucked too.

[Vigil]

I have to agree with the "sucked" opinion. I just can't get past the conspicuous writing style. It's like saying" Oh, look at me, I'm a writer. Isn't that weird?!" Maybe the book will show some improvement now that BMB has his cast but the thing I wonder...did he have to destroy the Avengers and decimate 40 years of charcterization, relationships and continuity to do it. Hell, Englehart, Busiek or Shooter would have just had a new line up form or a membership drive. I think the way it's been handled is incredibly egocentric and that's the death of good writing.

[levi]

Like it or Hate it.....we ALL bought it.*

Reminds me of a certain Saga (about Cloning) Disassembled will get swept under the rug sooner or later just like that story arc did and Avengers will keep on churning. Such is the way of comicdom.



*(And those of you who didn't buy it shouldn't post about it because you don't know what you're talking about until you actually read it)

[KA.]

Like it or Hate it.....we ALL bought it.*

Reminds me of a certain Saga (about Cloning) Disassembled will get swept under the rug sooner or later just like that story arc did and Avengers will keep on churning. Such is the way of comicdom.



*(And those of you who didn't buy it shouldn't post about it because you don't know what you're talking about until you actually read it)

Well, I haven't read this, so I am not commenting directly, but let me just say that comics I read and comics I buy are not the same group.
The second is a small subset of the first. ;)
Is this IP theft?
I don't think so.
Based on how badly many comics are screwed up (from my point of view) they are lucky if I even bother to glance through them in the store.
If I read them, or skim them, the publishers have at least some chance that I will buy them.
If I didn't skim them, I would never buy them at all.
There are things that I do buy without reading, Marvel Essentials, DC Archives, etc, of characters/periods that I know I will like.
But I don't feel obligated to contribute of the paycheck of whatever moron is currently trashing my favorite character.
And if I bought very many sight unseen, I am sure that I would quickly reach the point where I was too ticked off to even look anymore!

KA. The angry comic consumer. :)

[JmOz]

Well, I haven't read this, so I am not commenting directly, but let me just say that comics I read and comics I buy are not the same group.
The second is a small subset of the first. ;)
Is this IP theft?
I don't think so.
Based on how badly many comics are screwed up (from my point of view) they are lucky if I even bother to glance through them in the store.
If I read them, or skim them, the publishers have at least some chance that I will buy them.
If I didn't skim them, I would never buy them at all.
There are things that I do buy without reading, Marvel Essentials, DC Archives, etc, of characters/periods that I know I will like.
But I don't feel obligated to contribute of the paycheck of whatever moron is currently trashing my favorite character.
And if I bought very many sight unseen, I am sure that I would quickly reach the point where I was too ticked off to even look anymore!

KA. The angry comic consumer. :)

You do realise that the person you hurt doing that is not marvel or dc or whom ever but the comic book retailer?

As for the story, I bought every issue (Had to, running the store and all), I sold almost every issue, I'm thinking of offereing a refund and burning every issue, as it was very bad

SPOILERS


Okay on to avengers 1: Not as one of my customers said "The train wreck" I had expected. Did not like the characterisation of Captain America (almost as if he did not like Spidey...), and I also dislike JJ having her powers back (Last time I checked they were gone). Loved the whole bit about "You have 3 super heroes here" "You know I'm not daredevil", loved the Purple Man scenes (Alias/Pulse fans know why)

[KA.]

You do realise that the person you hurt doing that is not marvel or dc or whom ever but the comic book retailer?



JmOz,
I am not promoting the practice, but just to be a bit more specific:

1) I rarely actually "read" a whole comic in the store, I usually just look through them to see if there is even a possibility that I might want to buy them.

2) I am extremely gentle when I do this, so I always leave them in the same condition I found them in.

3) I only do this at the store where I buy all of my Marvel Essentials, DC Archives, and Hero books, so I don't think I am causing a net loss to the store owner.
Especially since they do not mark down anything, at all.
I sort of take it as a tradeoff.
They charge a bit more for their RPG books, and grant a little more leeway as far as "sampling".
I also do this in full view of the owner, and he has never said anything about it, or even looked with disapproval at my doing it.

4) As I said, if it came down to it, based on the fact that I don't like the direction most mainstream comics seem to be going in, if I didn't skim a few, I would never buy any, other than things like the Essentials that I know I am going to buy automatically.
I don't see it like downloading music (never have, never will) or buying bootleg copies of movies (ditto).
I see it more like giving the publisher, and in turn the Dealer, an opportunity to sell me their product, even though they have fallen short of my expectation many times already.
I re-read everything I ever buy, usually multiple times, which means that looking at it in the store is not a cheap substitute for buying it, at least not for me.

I also understand that, being in the business, you have a different perspective.
I am sure that you are plagued by kids and teens that rarely buy anything, damage half of what they look at, and would gladly steal anything that wasn't nailed down. If I were in your position, I am sure I would see it differently.

I think in some ways both sides are being screwed by the industry.

If they put out better products, people would be glad to buy them, sight unseen.
I haven't bought every single Hero book yet, although I own most of them, because I don't play every genre, and I am not that interested in vehicles.
However, when I see a Hero book that applies to something I do like, I just buy it.
I don't thumb through it in the store, because so far Hero has never screwed me by putting out substandard crap.
If they do, I will start being more careful when I buy something from them.

That, unfortunately, is where I currently stand with comics. :(

KA.

[Vigil]

I have to agree with KA. I am in the process of opening a store and, in my planning, have discovered that comics ahve a minimum margin of 50% on new issues while back issues are all gravy, essentially. Game products have an even higher margin. Now, as a store owner I don't want my establishment to become a library. If I'd wanted that, I'd open an adult bookstore, lol. But I do understand that comics are ridiculously overpriced and it's only for one reason - greed. Corporate greed and creator greed. In an ever shrinking market their greed grows ever larger. So, I tend to graze and sample myself and see no justification not to.

Vigil

[casualplayer]

Wheeeee, I love paying $2.25 for a prelude and get to wait a month for the story to advance another step at its glacial pace. Nope, gonna wait for the trade. That's if the art team holds up (I like Finch) and the writing doesn't deteriorate too badly.

Didn't care for surly Cap, in the same way I didn't like Waid's Mr. Fantastic yelling at Franklin. Realistic doesn't mean prick. Spider-Man will only be able to continue to participate in this team with massive hand-waving for the reasons shown in the book. Can't be the Webslinger if there is nothing to sling webs to; Spidey blows in a non-urban setting. Bendis needs Electro-shock therapy, because he is way, way too fond of that villain. Imagine if he had such a hard-on for the Vulture; we'ld have Ultimate Vulture and new, improved Vulture and Disassembled Vulture. This is the comic textbook-definition of a vanity piece.

Congrats on your comic store plans Vigil but I hope you have done the math. I'd rather play Blackjack for a living than sell comics (again) to pay my bills. Until you get into moving double digits of an issue over ordering by just one issue devours all your profits. Current store owners can help with recent numbers but I used to have to sell 5 issues/month minimum just to justify carrying a title and that was zero sum (expences=income, no profit.) With the plethora of trades, back issues are not gravy. They will take over your store and crowd out product that moves, say a full line of HERO. Maybe Canada is different but in the US all those long boxes of back issues mean an evil inventory tax bill at the end of the year. You would be better off carrying bulk dog food than shelf after shelf of back issues.

[jackalope]

I started collecting the Avengers again when Busiek and Perez were doing the series. It just hasn't been the same since that partnership ended on the series. Marvel continues to butcher and destroy the comics I have loved for over 25 years. And the way the deaths that Bendis wrote for Scott Lang, Hawkeye, Vision and Jack of Hearts (all characters I loved) were just plain wrong. They completely lacked the heroic endings each of these characters deserved. Bendis needs to take a long holiday and stay away from Marvel titles for a while so that these characters can go on without his mucking up the formulas that worked for so long with these characters.

Take this opinion, reverse it entirely, and you have my opinion.

I didn't care about the Avengers when Busiek and Perez were doing. I thought they were boring and formulaic. I think overall Marvel continues to lead the field while everyone else lags behind, managing to tell good, interesting, entertaining stories without resorting to shock, gross humor, big boobs, etc. I thought the deaths Bendis wrote were perfect. I'm surprised anyone cares about Ant-Man II or Jack of Hearts. I thought Hawkeye's death was perfect. I'm glad Bendis is getting a chance to rework the team concept, which had grown stale and was hard to distinguish from the competition.

Also, I really wish everyone would stop refering to the Vision as dead. And that includes Marvel. The Vision is not dead. He's been radically dismantled. That's not dead. He can be rebuilt and restored. This isn't even the first time it's happened!

Does anyone else notice that the New Avengers consist almost entirely of the Secret War crew? Captain America, Luke Cage, Daredevil, Spider-Man, soon Wolverine. All fought in Nick Fury's Secret War. Interesting that... Also, Spider-Woman has the obvious SHIELD connection, and Sentry is a prisoner of SHIELD...hmm.

Thought the issue was pretty good. Very nice use of Electro, always good to see him recognized as the competant and effective career criminal he is. He's not Master Villain capable (as he's proven with his failed attempts to lead the Sinister Six), but he's smart enough to be left to plan his own missions. A "smart pawn" as it were.

The Giant Super-Villain Breakout is a bit overdone, but they do need to happen fairly frequently to keep the whole Marvel world spinning. Of course, they haven't actually gotten away yet...

[jackalope]

The owner of the shop I go to encourages me to sit down and read anything I want, with no pressure to buy. I never abuse the priviledge, but I do read a lot of things that look interesting or I hear good things about that I end up not picking up.

It's one of the major reasons I shop there and not elsewhere.

[Blue]

I never read anything in the store. I may flip through pages of something new to see if anything about it grabs me, but that's it. But there are typically half a dozen guys there on Wednesdays standing around blocking the aisles and reading the comics with no complaints from the management.

I think that it's been many years since comics told any tale at a reasonable pace. Since every storyline is stretched into 6-8 issue storylines and the books are often filled with full page drawings, a single issue often feels unfulfilling. For that reason Trades are better.

But I hate waiting, and especially on something like this. Because by the time the TPB comes out I'd know the whole storyline.

[Vigil]

I'm inclined to agree with Casualplayer, and I think he very succinctly pointed out one of the flaws with all "mature" toned books (and Vertigo is the greatest offender here and always has been). That flaw is that negative doesn't equal mature. Drug addicted doesn't equal mature. Cynical or cranky or psychotic or neurotic or homicidal or suicidal doesn't equal mature. In fact, it tends to be just the oppisite. I think those titles should be labelled, "for Immature" or "adolescent" or "repressed" or "juvenille but pretensious" readers. I think what such title really succeed in doing is removing the joy and wonder and fun from comics. I guess, if you're BMB that's laudable. If you're a serious writer, it's deplorable.

Vigil

[casualplayer]

You gotta be able to read books in the store, as long as it's understood that "You break it, you bought it." If it's not 9.0 mint when it gets back to the shelf it's yours. Otherwise you can't get anyone to try anything new that hasn't been pimped on Comic Shop News or Wizard. All you would be selling is X-crement and choking out the garden with weeds.

I just realized that if this New Avengers book was called New Defenders, and you replaced Spider-Man with say Beast, I would unequivocally love this book. The feel of this book is very Defender-ish, the good old days with Valkyrie and Gargoyle.

Is it just me or is the team name Avengers kinda geared to antagonize? Almost but not quite as bad as the Justice League of America but awfully close. It's like they are the Retribution Squad, but that probably wouldn't have sold as well. The Pre-emptive Warriors? The Vindicators? The Ugly Americans? The Lounge-around-the-mansion-til-you-mess-with-us-then-we'll-wreak-havoc-ers?

[Kristopher]

Bendis is a two-bit hack. We're talking Austen territory here.

[Sketchpad]

I looked through and refuse to buy it ... I already collect a plethora of titles that I enjoy reading ;) As for New Avengers ... IMHO, it's garbage.

[Chimpira]

I'm inclined to agree with Casualplayer, and I think he very succinctly pointed out one of the flaws with all "mature" toned books (and Vertigo is the greatest offender here and always has been). That flaw is that negative doesn't equal mature. Drug addicted doesn't equal mature. Cynical or cranky or psychotic or neurotic or homicidal or suicidal doesn't equal mature. In fact, it tends to be just the oppisite. I think those titles should be labelled, "for Immature" or "adolescent" or "repressed" or "juvenille but pretensious" readers. I think what such title really succeed in doing is removing the joy and wonder and fun from comics. I guess, if you're BMB that's laudable. If you're a serious writer, it's deplorable.

Vigil
I'll keep that in mind the next time I pick up a new trade for Sandman Mystery Theatre, 100 Bullets, Fables, or Y the last man.

[Sketchpad]

I'll keep that in mind the next time I pick up a new trade for Sandman Mystery Theatre, 100 Bullets, Fables, or Y the last man.
Y The Last Man ... what a GREAT comic :)

[Vigil]

Sandman Mystery Theatre had it's good points, I'll admit and Fables (while I've never read it) is by one of my all times faves, Bill Willingham. What I'm railing against is not so much individual instances of Vertigo as the philosophy behind it. That being that cynicism equals meaningfulness equals maturity. That's garbage and if writers like Milligan, Morrisson (to some extent), BMB, et al had ever graduated from Philosophy 100 they'd know that. That's what I'm saying. In my eyes, "Hulk smash!" is a lot mor honest and meaningful than anything to come out of Shade The Changing Man. Something about putting lipstick on a pig...unless, it's gamma irradiated.

Vigil

[Chimpira]

Sandman Mystery Theatre had it's good points, I'll admit and Fables (while I've never read it) is by one of my all times faves, Bill Willingham. What I'm railing against is not so much individual instances of Vertigo as the philosophy behind it. That being that cynicism equals meaningfulness equals maturity. That's garbage and if writers like Milligan, Morrisson (to some extent), BMB, et al had ever graduated from Philosophy 100 they'd know that. That's what I'm saying. In my eyes, "Hulk smash!" is a lot mor honest and meaningful than anything to come out of Shade The Changing Man. Something about putting lipstick on a pig...unless, it's gamma irradiated.

Vigil
Ok. The philosophy behind Vertigo has never been that cynicism equals meaningfulness equals maturity. If you can find that in print somewhere I will gladly take back my last statement. Now I will say that Vertigo has put out some titles that I have had problems with. (I would have a hard time recommending 'The Eaters' to anyone.) But so has every other company. By saying that a comic book company only puts out cynical comics when you can point out several titles that are not, you are doing a disservice to any author that happens to be working for that company who is not putting out crap. Now I hate what they did to the Avengers. It has that 'Death of Superman' reek to it. I think we are in firm agreement on that point. I just disagree with your sweeping generalization of a company that has put out titles that would not ever make it in the halls of spandex and capes.

[Kristopher]

Ok. The philosophy behind Vertigo has never been that cynicism equals meaningfulness equals maturity. If you can find that in print somewhere I will gladly take back my last statement. Now I will say that Vertigo has put out some titles that I have had problems with. (I would have a hard time recommending 'The Eaters' to anyone.) But so has every other company. By saying that a comic book company only puts out cynical comics when you can point out several titles that are not, you are doing a disservice to any author that happens to be working for that company who is not putting out crap. Now I hate what they did to the Avengers. It has that 'Death of Superman' reek to it. I think we are in firm agreement on that point. I just disagree with your sweeping generalization of a company that has put out titles that would not ever make it in the halls of spandex and capes.


Well said.

[Vigil]

I never, to my knowledge, made any sweeping statements about any company. I was commenting on Vertigo, a LINE of DC Comics, not DC itself. And, even then, I qualified the statement by exempting stuff that had some merit. That being said, I think the problem remains. Vertigo made it's "name " as you will on producing comis for "mature" readers. In fact, all it was was a shallow and cynical excuse to produce comics with lots of over the top and gratuitous content which they'd have a hard time pandering anywhere else. And there was nothing mature about the content. Believe me, I've known my share of drug addicts and they tend not to be so much "mature" as "losers". So, maybe it's a semantic difference but Vertigo, in my opinion, has always pandered to the guttural and the cynical and the self indlugent. Shock value instead of story value. Self indlugence as opposed to story telling. But hey, if that kind of thing works for you, who am I to comment.

Vigil

[Chimpira]

As I see it, problems happen in all comic companies. Quite a few marvelous mature titles have come out of the line that is Veritigo. It is a shame that more than a few of their other ones have no substance, but if I was to talk about substance in comics I would be hard pressed to name a comic company that oozes substance. You say that a few comics have merit and then comdemn the line that gave those books to us. Without the line, we would not have had those books in the first place. So exactly how does one go about exempting those comics that are reliant on the line, if the the line does not exist, as you so clearly wish it did not?

[Vigil]

That's not true either. Those titles that I mentioned would have had substance, with or without the line. remember the greatest Vertigo title ever wasn't even in the line...it was the inspiration for the line, that being Alan Moore's brilliant Swamp Thing. What I'm saying is the Vertigo was created in order to tell "darker" or more "mature" stories that wouldn't fit in with DC's regular line and that somewhere along the line the simple minded editorial staff reached a de facto decision that darker and more mature meant cynical, nihilistic, and juvenille. In an attempt to capture "real" life Vertigo has created a cynical parody of it.

Do you know anyone like Constantine? No? Well he's an example of a "realistic" character from Vertigo (and again the character was at his best before his book became a Vertigo imprint). I think what Vertigo managed to do was take characters who were otherwise nuanced and reduce them to dark parodies of their former selves in order to make them "relevant" and realistic.

Maybe they were trying to be European or even kinda Japanese but Vertigo, by and large, is a line without irony. By that I mean they have absolutely no appreciation for or understanding of the fact that these characters are as much parodies as Ambush Bug is. And I'm sure the vast majority of Vertigo writers would deny that to their dying breaths (save for Alan Moore who is god-like and beyond reproach).

I guess what it ultimately boils down to is that I absolutely despise the pretentiousness of most of the Vertigo line and other books of that ilk. I think maybe the worst consequence of Vertigo is that its contagion seems to have spread to the mainstrem. Now everyone has to be "edgy" and relevant.

Take for example the much revamped Hulk and the Jones (I believe it was) revamping. Did all the angst and internal tomrent really do anything to advance or nuance the Hulk My answer is Hell, no beacuse the Hulk is about externalizing inward tension. He's about releasing rage, not brooding existentiallly. As Stan Lee says (and he should know) he's about "Hulk smash!"

And I think that points to yet another fundamental flaw of many of the Vertigo style writers. They just don't understand the charcters that they are writing, at all. In fact, I don't think they want to cause they're so egocentric that they want to write what they want to write regardless of the characters. It's this kind of disrespect for character (as brilliant displayed in the Disassembled books) that make me, as a writer and as a fan, livid. It takes no skill whatsoever to maim or mutilate a character. What does take skill is to work within the established parameters of a character, warts and all, and try to find new nuances and new ideas in that. Alan Moore is the undisputed master of this and Busiek is pretty good too due, in part, to the fatc that they oth respect and revel in the characters and their histories.

So, finally, what I'm saying is that Vertigo may have a place but let's not forget where it came from and who made who. I think Vertigo has done a great disservice to the industry by glorifying the cyncial and the nihilistic. And I don't think that's progressed anything at all.

Vigil

[JmOz]

As always it is the simptom and not the disease that gets discussed.

Vetigo's hay day was the early-mid 90's, you know the era that gave us Image? While won't compare them, you have to remember that this time was for comic books Dickens wrote "It was the Best of Time, It was the worst of time". The envelope was being pushed in all directions, but at the same time we got some very juvenile attempts at mature literature.

[Kristopher]

As always it is the simptom and not the disease that gets discussed.

Vetigo's hay day was the early-mid 90's, you know the era that gave us Image? While won't compare them, you have to remember that this time was for comic books Dickens wrote "It was the Best of Time, It was the worst of time". The envelope was being pushed in all directions, but at the same time we got some very juvenile attempts at mature literature.


Again, well said.

[Chimpira]

That's not true either. Those titles that I mentioned would have had substance, with or without the line. remember the greatest Vertigo title ever wasn't even in the line...it was the inspiration for the line, that being Alan Moore's brilliant Swamp Thing. What I'm saying is the Vertigo was created in order to tell "darker" or more "mature" stories that wouldn't fit in with DC's regular line and that somewhere along the line the simple minded editorial staff reached a de facto decision that darker and more mature meant cynical, nihilistic, and juvenille. In an attempt to capture "real" life Vertigo has created a cynical parody of it.

Do you know anyone like Constantine? No? Well he's an example of a "realistic" character from Vertigo (and again the character was at his best before his book became a Vertigo imprint). I think what Vertigo managed to do was take characters who were otherwise nuanced and reduce them to dark parodies of their former selves in order to make them "relevant" and realistic.

Maybe they were trying to be European or even kinda Japanese but Vertigo, by and large, is a line without irony. By that I mean they have absolutely no appreciation for or understanding of the fact that these characters are as much parodies as Ambush Bug is. And I'm sure the vast majority of Vertigo writers would deny that to their dying breaths (save for Alan Moore who is god-like and beyond reproach).

I guess what it ultimately boils down to is that I absolutely despise the pretentiousness of most of the Vertigo line and other books of that ilk. I think maybe the worst consequence of Vertigo is that its contagion seems to have spread to the mainstrem. Now everyone has to be "edgy" and relevant.

Take for example the much revamped Hulk and the Jones (I believe it was) revamping. Did all the angst and internal tomrent really do anything to advance or nuance the Hulk My answer is Hell, no beacuse the Hulk is about externalizing inward tension. He's about releasing rage, not brooding existentiallly. As Stan Lee says (and he should know) he's about "Hulk smash!"

And I think that points to yet another fundamental flaw of many of the Vertigo style writers. They just don't understand the charcters that they are writing, at all. In fact, I don't think they want to cause they're so egocentric that they want to write what they want to write regardless of the characters. It's this kind of disrespect for character (as brilliant displayed in the Disassembled books) that make me, as a writer and as a fan, livid. It takes no skill whatsoever to maim or mutilate a character. What does take skill is to work within the established parameters of a character, warts and all, and try to find new nuances and new ideas in that. Alan Moore is the undisputed master of this and Busiek is pretty good too due, in part, to the fatc that they oth respect and revel in the characters and their histories.

So, finally, what I'm saying is that Vertigo may have a place but let's not forget where it came from and who made who. I think Vertigo has done a great disservice to the industry by glorifying the cyncial and the nihilistic. And I don't think that's progressed anything at all.

Vigil
You say that those stories would have substance elsewhere. I believe that, as well. Now the problem that I run into is where exactly would that be? Where would these titles come from that would not cost you all your living expenses to produce or be able to reach a large audience through a halfway decent amount of publicity. Image maybe? But they have their own set of problems, as well.

Listen Vigil, this is really going around in circles. I understand what you are saying but the fact remains that although quite a bit of garbage can be put out by Vertigo, they do put out some decent titles as well. You have admitted that yourself. Some writers have ego problems, some writers do not know how to tell a story well, and some writers are so good you would read what they write if it was on a roll of toilet paper. This is true of most companies. We have to take the good with the bad. Quite frankly, I am finished on this matter and do not wish to derail this thread any further than it already has been. But before I go, I am curious. I have often heard you speak of being a writer and would like to see some of your work. Where could I find some?

[Vigil]

I think you make a good point and raise an issue that I hadn't given any real creedence to; that being, Image Comics. To be entirely honest I think Image may be as responsible for the sorry state of a lot of comics today as Vertigo (although I hate them less, lol). I think in their own way Image through their almost pornographic portrayal of women and cardboard approach to ultra-violence contributed to the slide of the industry as much as Vertigo did. I guess, lol, that I just hate them less. In the final analysis I just miss that great point of paralax in the Bronze Age when all of these factors were in balance. Maybe I'm gettin' old.

[Vigil]

To Chimpira:

Yes, I do write. In my hometown here, I worked as the resident script analyst for A Channel and have a degree in screen writing. I also had a few scripts optioned in Toronto but never produced. Comic wise, I was (am? lol) in negotiations with an image brand for a couple of new series. Can't say more...but I may be able to privately send you a smaple of the amazing artwotk of my co-creator. Again, no hard feelings in the previous. I just think the industry could do better and has in the past. Cheers.

Vigil

[Chimpira]

No hard feelings on my part. The industry has done better in the past and I believe it can do so in the future. We just got to keep calling them on it. Cheers.

[Eyendasky80]

One year later. Has your opinion changed? Are you still reading? Did you start/stop?

[Log-Man]

Pretty much the same: I'm not convinced it's a good idea, and I'd like to read it out of curiousity. They've had a year to get me curious enough to buy an issue. Hasn't happened yet. Still, no outright condemnation.

[Vigil]

One year later.

Time flies and so did my 30+ year subscription to and love of The Avengers.

For me, The New Avengers have come to occupy that same sort of space as groups like The Authority and The Ultimates, namely, a cynical, self indulgent style of characterization and storytelling where, it seems, the writer is loathe to admit that he even reads comics, nonethelss likes them cause that wouldn't be cool. All of which is further complicated by the need for some mysterious and vague sort of "believability" and relevance...which to me is transposing the writer's neurosis onto the characters.

For me, the final straw came early in the new series with Iron man and Cap making excuses for having a homicidal maniac (Wolverine) on the team cause he can do things they won't or can't do. So, being a party to homicide is okay if you don't kill anyone yourself. Nice. And morally convenient too. As convenient, in fact, as turning Captain America from a struggling and at time doubting idealist and patriot to a callous cynic. Makes for easier storytelling when there's no moral conflict and you don't have to worry about fiddly thing like established characterizations and continuity.

I could go on and on but for me, in trying to capture something new and trendy they lost what was old and estimable, the classic Avengers.

And they lost me, too.

V

[Troll]

The New Avengers, in my opinion, are crap. The death of Hawkeye, Vision and turing Scarlet Witch and Quicksliver into insane villians was a slap in the face to long time Avengers fans like myself, again in my opinion. The whole "New" Avengers reminds me of the Heros Reborn Avengers, and as with that cluster I believe this too shall pass.

Wake me when Bendis leaves will ya?

[Hermit]

One year later. Has your opinion changed? Are you still reading? Did you start/stop?

Still reading, and I have a subscription. I would say on a scale of 1 to 10, the series has been between 4 and 7, that is "blah" to "good" over all. The pacing is slower than I like, but some of the interaction is quite good (many have praised the Cage/Spider-Man patter, I'm among them). What's more, I am a fan of the original Spider-Woman, and thus enjoying her return to the costume. Bendis seems to have trouble with the character of Captain America; from everything I've seen, Bendis has to like a character to really get into the heads, and while he doesn't seem to hate Cap, he doesn't grok him either. There was some sign of improvement recently in that area, and that makes me happier. Some of the mysteries have been intriguing (again if slow) but the pay off had me going 'meh'. I hope the one regarding Jessica has a better delievery than Sentry's reveal.

Finch's art is very good, except for two things... he seems to have trouble with faces (he's getting better) and sometimes he seems out of the loop on the story, and this causes him to make visual mistakes. Not sure if that's his fault, or the fault of the editor, but they really need to coordinate better. I think Finch gets a raw deal from some fans. I believe he has admited that the Bendis approach to talking a lot and slower pace is somewhat frustrating for him as an artist, but that maybe just rumor.

It's not a bad book, and I even like it, but Marvel's stated rationale for the change before falls flat. We do not have "Marvel's A List" (Sorry, Ronin, Sentry, etc do not quite count) nor the most powerful (Again, if you asked for Marvel's powerhouses, at least half of this group would not come to mind), and while I can't blame Bendis for snatching up his favorites (I know "I" would if I were able to) his doing so has ruined any message of either 'best' OR 'most popular' that J Q swore up and down was the plan IIRC. Bendis seems on a 'rotating' membership, and it's starting to wear thin. Wolverine is left out of the Ronin story line because his own experiences in Japan render that character needless. Sentry is proclaimed 'not ready', but the real reason seems to be that he's too hard to write in and still provide a challenge for our heroes. I don't want Wolverine in the Avengers, but if I were a big Logan fan who'd bought the book in part to see our clawed hero, I'd feel really short changed right now. In a faster paced book, it would work, (and has worked in the past) because they only get skipped every other issue, and not for three months straight.


My suggestion if you want to look into it? Buy the NA trades when/if they come out for it instead, Bendis' writing is more suited to that.

[Hermit]

For me, the final straw came early in the new series with Iron man and Cap making excuses for having a homicidal maniac (Wolverine) on the team cause he can do things they won't or can't do. So, being a party to homicide is okay if you don't kill anyone yourself. Nice. And morally convenient too. As convenient, in fact, as turning Captain America from a struggling and at time doubting idealist and patriot to a callous cynic. Makes for easier storytelling when there's no moral conflict and you don't have to worry about fiddly thing like established characterizations and continuity.

V

The above mentioned is one of the things that I have to agree with you on. I almost dropped the series myself for that reason, and it was proof that Bendis just doesn't understand Captain America. Fer crying out loud, it isn't like Cap hasn't made the hard choice himself in the past, and as you point out, getting someone on the team just to act as your 'hit man' is morally reprenshible.

Then, oddly, Wolverine kept vanishing, and the subject hasn't come up, so I kept giving it a chance. I'll see if they act on it.

The 'good news' (?) is that as of NA#15 (EdIT: I Got the issue number wrong I guess), there will be yet another roster change.

[Vigil]

Will the roster change include the writer...or is Busiek's return too much to hope for?

V

[Hermit]

Sorry, it was 15 not 17



NEW AVENGERS #15

The Story:
The time has come for the New Avengers to go public. Who will stand and declare themselves a New Avenger? Some stay and some go. And some old friends come back to the fold. All this and the New Avengers face their toughest opponent yet... J. Jonah Jameson! Plus the secrets of Jessica Drew continue.
32 PGS./ RATED A ...$2.50

In Stores: 01-25-2006

And it looks like Bendis is staying on it. I would LOVE Busiek to take over but I don't think a writer change'll happen any time soon. Heck, truth to tell, I like the way JMS handled the New Avengers in the Amazing Spider-Man book more than Bendis does. JMS' interaction between Tony and Peter was great :)

[Vigil]

I agree and much better than JMS's work on Supreme Power which has become a real cure for insomnia. 19 issues and the team hasn't even formed! That's gotta be a new all-time record for pointless wordiness.

V

[Chimpira]

I like Supreme Power. I liked it when I read issue 1 and I still like it. When they do become a team I probably will not care for it as much as the whole effect of how they interact with the world will become diluted. I have not cared for any of the spinoffs though.

On the flip side, Avengers is a team book and I would like to see the whole team together for once. I like the book. I can't believe that they have me reading The Avengers again, a comic I dropped shortly after Starfox joined and they had their big Eternals story arc. Somehow it just made me go eh. I was collecting Avengers back in the day when George Perez was doing it and loooovved those stories. I took a peek back in the door during Avengers Disassembled and nearly threw up.

I picked up the New Avengers because Bendis put Luke Cage in. After the hatchet job that writers have been doing to him for a number of years, especially Azzarello, I was glad to see him portrayed close to the way I like to see him. I can't gripe about Captain America because I never really got him either and I had been reading comics since 1974. I was a little let down by The Ronin thing. The whole time I was going "That better not be a woman in a padded suit because that would be total crap" sigh.

All in all, though, I like the series and loved the kitchen moment between Cap and Spiderwoman.

[Blue]

I often see Wolverine referred to as homocidal.

Frankly, I can't recall an instance of Wolvering actually killing someone. There's plenty of shots of him tearing through sentinels, slashing people, etc. But then I never collected the Wolverin solo series and theres about an 8 year gap in my knowledge of comics.

I'm just wondering who he's killed?

[Andrew Cermak]

I'm just wondering who he's killed?

Many, many mooks in his own series. Few people in team books, and those often mercy killings, or villains who later turned up not dead.

[Chimpira]

I often see Wolverine referred to as homocidal.

Frankly, I can't recall an instance of Wolvering actually killing someone. There's plenty of shots of him tearing through sentinels, slashing people, etc. But then I never collected the Wolverin solo series and theres about an 8 year gap in my knowledge of comics.

I'm just wondering who he's killed?

Oh, a butt load of hand ninjas and the leader of the ninjas that was Mariko's(Logan's fiancee)... father? It has been a while since I read that mini. Actually I have not read it since it first came out.

[Andrew Cermak]

Oh, a butt load of hand ninjas

Hand ninjas aren't always "alive." I'm not sure killing them counts.

But I know I've seen him cutting down gangsters in Madripoor.

[Chimpira]

Hand ninjas aren't always "alive." I'm not sure killing them counts.

But I know I've seen him cutting down gangsters in Madripoor.

I would tend to agree with you if these Ninjas had turned to vapor but unfortunately there was little doubt that they were dead. I am referring to the first Wolverine mini series.

[Powerhouse]

The book pretty much sucks and is a cancer upon the history of the Avengers.

[Powerhouse]

I just realized that if this New Avengers book was called New Defenders, and you replaced Spider-Man with say Beast, I would unequivocally love this book. The feel of this book is very Defender-ish, the good old days with Valkyrie and Gargoyle.

Good point. This would be a decent Defenders book in that it's a non-team nor is it the best in the world team of heroes. Unfortunately it's the New *Avengers* and thus sucking royally.

Too bad really.

[Enforcer84]

I often see Wolverine referred to as homocidal.

Frankly, I can't recall an instance of Wolvering actually killing someone. There's plenty of shots of him tearing through sentinels, slashing people, etc. But then I never collected the Wolverin solo series and theres about an 8 year gap in my knowledge of comics.

I'm just wondering who he's killed?
And that was supposed to be his schtick, he was seeking to conquer the berserker rages in his heart. But then it turned out that was cool and he didn't have to. Happy Happy Joy Joy.

[Enforcer84]

Oh, and not to rain on any parades here, but when an Avengers team has trouble taking down "The Wrecker" (not even the Wrecking Crew, mind you, just the one guy); they might want to see about a roster revamp tout suite.

[Vigil]

Especially Sentry. All I've seen the guy do is mope with the force of a million exploding suns...or whatever his dopey catch phrase is. The mini-series sucked, he's even worse in The Avengers and he's certainly the most inane and boring Superman clone of all time.

[Bloodstone]

Oh, and not to rain on any parades here, but when an Avengers team has trouble taking down "The Wrecker" (not even the Wrecking Crew, mind you, just the one guy); they might want to see about a roster revamp tout suite.

You know, I gotta agree with that and I actully LIKE the new team. But I hate the rather vast power level differences, just as I hated it in the old Avengers.

[MCMaenza]

I happened to read about the team in the issue of New Thunderbolts where the 'Bolts cleaned their clock. Should that have happened to an Avengers team? Not usually. Why did it happen this time? None of these guys functioned as a solid team. Say what you will about past Avengers line ups as far as power levels or sheer popularity of members (ie. who could support their own title - who could not), but at least they learned how to fight as an effective unit.

Oh, and two Spider characters in the book at the same time? Nuh uh. Doesn't feel right at all.

[Andrew Cermak]

I happened to read about the team in the issue of New Thunderbolts where the 'Bolts cleaned their clock. Should that have happened to an Avengers team? Not usually. Why did it happen this time?

It happened because Fabian Nicieza wrote it that way. He wanted the Thunderbolts to look good and the Avengers to look like chumps, so that's how he wrote it.

It was rather silly.

[Sketchpad]

It happened because Fabian Nicieza wrote it that way. He wanted the Thunderbolts to look good and the Avengers to look like chumps, so that's how he wrote it.

It was rather silly.

Maybe silly ... but when you look at it, they should be able to clean the clocks of the "New Avengers" ... sad really :(

[Chuckg]

Quoting a post from another message board I frequent:


[...] But I want to digress into what Marvel has been doing over in the Avengers.

Now regardless of whether you believe them to be the "true" Avengers (personally I do) or not, one thing is readily evident. These guys are completely unprepared for anything that comes their way. Throughout the run, the New Avengers have been upstaged by, Dr. Strange, S.H.I.E.L.D., Emma Frost. Now they got stalemated by the Hand...the friggin Hand!?! Haven't we seen a Wolverine beat them solo? Hasn't Daredevil taken out a room full of these guys? Hasn't Spider-Man or the Heroes for Hire tandem of Luke and Danny schooled the Hand before? They have yet to solve a problem on their own or do anything of note outside of Spider-Man's comic when they stopped Hydra without outside help. To throw salt on the wound, the Thunderbolts ambush and completely humiliate them. Now I believe that the Thunderbolts should beat them more often than not, but it looked like the Fantastic Four beating up on Power Pack.

How exactly do these guys (Avengers) look themselves in the mirror in the morning? Damn, the New Warriors did better in their first year than the new Avengers have.

[Chuckg]

There's also the part where a couple of months ago, the Runaways took on the entire Wrecking Crew -- and absolutely ground their faces into the dirt.

Way to go, New Avengers, you're being upstaged by schoolkids.

[Andrew Cermak]

There's also the part where a couple of months ago, the Runaways took on the entire Wrecking Crew -- and absolutely ground their faces into the dirt.

Way to go, New Avengers, you're being upstaged by schoolkids.

There are few villain teams out there that vary as much from showing to showing as the Wrecking Crew. That's on the editors' shoulders.

[Eyendasky80]

They did win, and in a very short amount of time. However, due to decompression, it dragged on for an entire issue, but from what I could tell from the book, they landed in their jet stepped out the door and confronted Wrecker. Who kicked the crap out of them for a few minutes and then they rocked him. I blame Bendis for making a win look like a loss in an effort to make Spider-Woman more "kewl."

[Vigil]

I think what's consistently obvious with BMB is that he doesn't like the Avengers, other than the idea of destroying or humiliating them.

Moreover, he has absolutely no clue as to how to write them (which is why he loaded a team with charcters who have no business being Avengers) and seems to have no empathy for them or their history. Add that to the entire mercenary approach taken ion adding Spidey and Wolverine solely for sales kick and you have what I believe to be the worst chapter of Avenger's history and the absolute triumph of the mercenary over the creative. That's the real Avenger's Disassembled IMO.

And IMO those are all signs of a lousy writer.

V

[Eyendasky80]

I understand why people don't like Wolverine in the Avengers, but I think Spidey is a good fit. He's a social guy and they've been trying to recruit him since the sixties, he's been a reserve and I think the only reason he hasn't been an Avenger before is because of his own self-doubt. Now that he's matured and is starting to think maybe he deserves something good for a change, it makes since that he would agree to join the Avengers. Whether or not it works out? I don't know. But I for one am glad to see him there, where I thought he always belonged. The only time I read the Avengers for any length of time was when Spidey joined after a guest spot to fight Nebula. He quit soon thereafter, but I was really into him on the Avengers.

[Chuckg]

I agree that that the general idea of Spidey becoming an Avenger makes perfect sense.

Sadly, that well is now forever poisoned, because Bendis' execution of that idea has been execrable.

[Hermit]

I understand why people don't like Wolverine in the Avengers, but I think Spidey is a good fit. He's a social guy and they've been trying to recruit him since the sixties, he's been a reserve and I think the only reason he hasn't been an Avenger before is because of his own self-doubt. Now that he's matured and is starting to think maybe he deserves something good for a change, it makes since that he would agree to join the Avengers. Whether or not it works out? I don't know. But I for one am glad to see him there, where I thought he always belonged. The only time I read the Avengers for any length of time was when Spidey joined after a guest spot to fight Nebula. He quit soon thereafter, but I was really into him on the Avengers.

I'm a big Spidey Fan and I totally agree with you. Spider-Man is often at his funniest/best when bounced off a fellow hero or two, one of the reasons I'm fond of the old Marvel Team up (and I hear good things about the current series as well). He really doesn't strike me as big a loner as some people have claimed. Besides, Spidey as a team player would be one aspect of the character that many writers haven't had the chance to explore in depth yet.

I like the interaction he's done so far with Luke and, to a lesser degree, Spider-Woman in NA, and the relationship between Peter and Tony in ASM was great.

[levi]

I just hope that some editor over at Marvel or even Jose Quesada himself gets his head out of the clouds and gets a hold on Cap. Stan Lee used to oversee all of the Cap editors to make sure he didn't stray. Since The Ultimates and the Marvel Knights Cap series it seems like they want to make him a naive, jaded, grumpy old warhorse instead of the idealistic icon and consumate professional crimefighter he was for 50+ years. I worry mostly because Marvel has there own film slate now and the rights to the Cap movie again and Avi Arad (Exec Producer on all Marvel Films) has stated that he doesn't much care for the character, but really wants to make a Cap movie. That scares the hell out of me.

[Tim]

Avi Arad (Exec Producer on all Marvel Films) has stated that he doesn't much care for the character, but really wants to make a Cap movie. That scares the hell out of me.

WTF! If he doesn't like the character, why, in God's name, does he want ot make a movie about him???????:eek:

[Vigil]

I agree, Levi, but even a naive and grumpy old warhorse is a far more prefereable option than the mean spirited cynic that he seems to have become. To me, Cap always has to represent the ideals that most people pay lip service to but don't hold in any true esteem. He walks the talk in a way that no other hero, even Superman, does. In that way, he's more than just an idealist. hHe's the ideal, itself. Long live the one true, Captain America!

V

[Vigil]

To illustrate your point, further, Tim...warren Ellis has sated that he, basically, despises superheroes...so what do they do...they get him to write all the superhero books they can throw at him with the bizarre idea that he'll have a fresh and invigorating take on superheroes...yeah, his take is that hates them! Is that good? Revolutionary? Refreshing or novel? not IMO.

V

[Tim]

To illustrate your point, further, Tim...warren Ellis has sated that he, basically, despises superheroes...so what do they do...they get him to write all the superhero books they can throw at him with the bizarre idea that he'll have a fresh and invigorating take on superheroes...yeah, his take is that hates them! Is that good? Revolutionary? Refreshing or novel? not IMO.

V
Totally agree, rep to you.

[i3ullseye]

I liked the first few books actually. The prison break was well done I thought. No one expected the arm!

The itneractions are better than I expected also. Cap pissed? Well, yeah... right now in that story line he has a certain right to be VERY pissed about what has gone on, and is going on. I don't know that it is so much a vast departure for Cap so much as a reaction to current situations that may subside in time.

I really like Peter thinking he isn't 'worthy' to be an Avenger, and Cap just dropping his jaw and saying basically "You are Spiderman! You have done everything!"

Good and bad. I stopped buying it actively after 8 issues or so, but will probably get a TPB of it.

[Enforcer84]

I really like Peter thinking he isn't 'worthy' to be an Avenger, and Cap just dropping his jaw and saying basically "You are Spiderman! You have done everything!"



That would have been fun to read. :D