Unstoppable

[Eyendasky80]

I'm building Juggernaut who's schtick is being completely unstoppable. So I was thinking about using tunneling, above ground only, to represent his busting down walls and such. But, can you only "tunnel" when you are physically breaking through a wall/obstacle? I'd like to be able to do move thoughs through walls and characters in one attack. Like a super move through. So I was thinking if you could, it'd be worth the points to buy enough tunneling (especially after disads) to do effective movethroughs that cut through walls and other obstacles like butter. What do you think? Can't recall if it's even legal, but I doubt it.

[Hawksmoor]

Without the book in front of me I think that it is legal. I wouldn't apply the limitation Above ground only though, but more on that later. Tunnelling is a movement power, pure and simple. Therefore there should be no concerns about using tunnelling in a movethrough. OTOH what is air but a 0DEF 0Body obstacle anyway?

Now why don't you want to apply the Limitation? Because dropping buildings on you, falling into wet cement and the like are (should) be common parts of Juggernauts day. Hence you should be able to shoulder your way through them with ease. Hence Tunnelling. Say 7" through 31 DEF it will only cost you a mere 107 CP but nothing on the globe would stop you! Not even those pesky entangles!

Hawksmoor

[Supreme Serpent]

Tunnelling's movement, right? What would be the problem doing a move-through with it? Not the most common use, granted, but how common is tunnelling to begin with?

[Eyendasky80]

Some limitation should be legal without sacrificing bulldozing out of stuff dropped on you. He doesn't dig, so the power is less effective for him.

[fbdaury]

Extra strength, only while in motion(-1/2), lots and lots of extra strength, only for casual strength(-1/2), only to break/destroy obstacles without stopping(-1/2), etc. :nonp:

[Eyendasky80]

Thought of that, then thought of tunnelling. Once I'm clear on what's legal, I'll look at what's the most effective/economic way to do it.

[BlackCobra]

Tunneling, schmunneling --- I say, do everything with Casual Strength.

Just make sure Juggernaut has enough raw strength (he's supposed to be super-duper strong, right?) to simply bull through walls without stopping. If you can go through it with your casual strength, you don't have to stop.

[OddHat]

I pretty much agree with the Causal STR idea. He does not tunnel. Give him the maximum STR you allow in your campaign, say 120 for example. Now give him +60 STR, No Figured Characteristics, Casual STR only (-1). Massive KB resistance (-24" or so) would help as well.

[Kal'daka]

I gave him a 250 STR... plus rege augmented STR for his brick tricks

[Kristopher]

250?

:rolleyes:

[Tech]

I gave him a 250 STR... plus rege augmented STR for his brick tricks
I hope that full 250 Str isn't usuable against heroes.

"50d6 Punch at you - you're splatted."

[Kal'daka]

I had a PC create a race known as Golemians.... they average 100 - 200 STR plus high PD and Damage reduction Physical... 250 did not seem like a stretch for the Juggernaugt.. in Marvel terms he had a Class 1000 STR

[Rapier]

"50d6 Punch at you - you're splatted."
While I have that many dice in my bag...I would hate to have to roll em. Can you imagine the 4 minutes it would take to calc BODY?

I think 250 is a bit...overzealuous. Isnt that a lifting of like 1 trillion tons or something? 50d6 is approaching, if not over your average planet buster, neh?

[WhammeWhamme]

While I have that many dice in my bag...I would hate to have to roll em. Can you imagine the 4 minutes it would take to calc BODY?

I think 250 is a bit...overzealuous. Isnt that a lifting of like 1 trillion tons or something? 50d6 is approaching, if not over your average planet buster, neh?

26,843,545,600,000 tons (I may be off by a few doublings)

So significantly beyond 1 trillion tons.

[Rapier]

26,843,545,600,000 tons (I may be off by a few doublings)

So significantly beyond 1 trillion tons.
Yeah, I knew I was lowballing it. 200 STR is like 250 million tons.

At any rate. 250 STR is a mite excessive. What's the mass of the moon? :)

[Kristopher]

I had a PC create a race known as Golemians.... they average 100 - 200 STR plus high PD and Damage reduction Physical... 250 did not seem like a stretch for the Juggernaugt.. in Marvel terms he had a Class 1000 STR


The problem there is the Golemians.

As for Marvel...Juggernaut has whatever the strength the hack currently writing him feels like he needs on that page.

[CrosshairCollie]

The problem there is the Golemians.

As for Marvel...Juggernaut has whatever the strength the hack currently writing him feels like he needs on that page.

Actually, according to the Official Handbook of the Marvel U, Juggernaut has Superhuman Class 100, not 1000, strength, meaning his lift is 100 tons. So, actually, that's about a 60.

Now, another 250 STR, Casual Only, wouldn't be so bad.

[Tamashii2000]

But, can you only "tunnel" when you are physically breaking through a wall/obstacle? I'd like to be able to do move thoughs through walls and characters in one attack.
Can't recall if it's even legal, but I doubt it.

Fred has an example power under tunneling called "superstrength bust through" for smashing through walls easly..so Yep. I would say its legal :rolleyes:

[Magmarock]

Not even those pesky entangles!


Except that, I think, you have to break out of an entangle before you can use a movement power. Geez, now I gotta look it up. :nonp:


Mags


EDIT: Ok, Under Tunneling (FReD, page 155, right column, second paragraph, first sentence):

"A character trapped in an Entangle cannot use Tunneling to escape from it."

[Eyendasky80]

Fred has an example power under tunneling called "superstrength bust through" for smashing through walls easly..so Yep. I would say its legal :rolleyes:

Okay mr. Rollyeyesmcgee you're absolutely right about that. But my question is, is it legal to use tunneling above ground to perform a move through? The effect I want is him just mowing through everything in his path. Not: runrunrunrun stop tunnel through wall runrunrunrunr stop tunnel through wall runrunrunrun.
The superstrength bust through is exactly what inspired me to use tunneling to simulate the unstoppable, but I don't know if you can tunnel above ground without having anything to actually tunnel through.

[Rapier]

EDIT: Ok, Under Tunneling (FReD, page 155, right column, second paragraph, first sentence):

"A character trapped in an Entangle cannot use Tunneling to escape from it."
As a rule, I agree. But sometimes SFX (ye grande olde trumpe carde) would warrant that a movement power can help you break out of an entangle. If you are stick in a goo-blob entangle your jet pack flight may help you to bust on out.

But as a rule of thumb....

[KA.]

Okay mr. Rollyeyesmcgee you're absolutely right about that. But my question is, is it legal to use tunneling above ground to perform a move through? The effect I want is him just mowing through everything in his path. Not: runrunrunrun stop tunnel through wall runrunrunrunr stop tunnel through wall runrunrunrun.
The superstrength bust through is exactly what inspired me to use tunneling to simulate the unstoppable, but I don't know if you can tunnel above ground without having anything to actually tunnel through.

Just locate him in a major city like New York.
There should be enough pollution for the air to qualify as a solid. :D
Seriously,
I see nothing at all wrong with using Tunneling in the manner you describe.
It is is movement power, you are doing a full move for a Move Through, no problem.
If someone gets really picky about it, just buy a Change Environment or Transform that invisibly changes a tiny layer of air in front of you into dirt as you pass through it. ;)

Or, just put a +1/4 Advantage on it and call it done.
That is the cost of the Advantage that allows Flight to work under water, (taking the place of swimming.)
I don't see why being able to Tunnel through air is any more useful, generally it would be less so.

KA.

[WhammeWhamme]

Just locate him in a major city like New York.
There should be enough pollution for the air to qualify as a solid. :D
Seriously,
I see nothing at all wrong with using Tunneling in the manner you describe.
It is is movement power, you are doing a full move for a Move Through, no problem.
If someone gets really picky about it, just buy a Change Environment or Transform that invisibly changes a tiny layer of air in front of you into dirt as you pass through it. ;)

Or, just put a +1/4 Advantage on it and call it done.
That is the cost of the Advantage that allows Flight to work under water, (taking the place of swimming.)
I don't see why being able to Tunnel through air is any more useful, generally it would be less so.

KA.

Alternatively, look at it this way:
You can tunnel through (say) porous rock, right?
So why not 'tunnel' through the ground? Only the top, oooh, inch or three, of course. Just because there's some air doesn't mean much...

[CrosshairCollie]

If someone were to try a 'tunneling move-through', as for myself, I'd probably require either the target to be underground, or it'd be one of those kinda dolphin-jumping like moves (dive underground, dig, then come up under the target). But that's just me.

[Kristopher]

IMO, the option that involves extra STR, Only to Add to Casual STR, is by far the best way to go.

[Chuckg]

IMO, the option that involves extra STR, Only to Add to Casual STR, is by far the best way to go.

Brilliant. I'd rep you for this, but I'm out.

[Supreme Serpent]

While I have that many dice in my bag...I would hate to have to roll em. Can you imagine the 4 minutes it would take to calc BODY?


Eh, sometimes that's what players are for . "He hits, for 50d6. Roll it, take the damage, let me know how much knockback you take. Meanwhile, Bob, your action..."

[Kal'daka]

Actually according to Galactic champions you would nees a 360 Str to move moon. You need a 225 to move a mountain. Still point taken will be lowering that a bit... have not play tested him yet to see effect

[Rapier]

IMO, the option that involves extra STR, Only to Add to Casual STR, is by far the best way to go.
I have bought up Only for Casual STR so that Casual and Normal STR are the same. The SFX was that he was a Bane-type guy/adrenaline junky. He also had this nifty little accidental change for overstrengthing (eg "oops...I broke it again. Sometimes I just don't know my own strength.").

I used a -1 for the lim.

[Magmarock]

As a rule, I agree. But sometimes SFX (ye grande olde trumpe carde) would warrant that a movement power can help you break out of an entangle. If you are stick in a goo-blob entangle your jet pack flight may help you to bust on out.


If it was bought as an EB... yes. IMO, using a movement power to cause damage (or as an attack power), SFX or no, would be cheesy and borderline cheating. I'd rule against it on principle, as a GM.


Mags

[WhammeWhamme]

If it was bought as an EB... yes. IMO, using a movement power to cause damage (or as an attack power), SFX or no, would be cheesy and borderline cheating. I'd rule against it on principle, as a GM.


Mags

I'd be a bit of a bastard about it, I think. "Sure you can use the jet pack... as a Move Through on the entangle. Hope this works... (if it didn't break out, ow)

[Kristopher]

It would depend entirely on SFX. A jetback is going to burn through some entangles, but I'd hate to be the typical jetpack wearing character caught up in a flaming glue entangle.

[Moody Loner]

How about buying Flight with a 1/4 Advantage "Adds to STR for escaping Entangles"?

[Rapier]

How about buying Flight with a 1/4 Advantage "Adds to STR for escaping Entangles"?
Maybe. But it would so SFX dependent on WHICH entangles that I would be hard pressed to rationalise it as an advantage.

[Rapier]

If it was bought as an EB... yes. IMO, using a movement power to cause damage (or as an attack power), SFX or no, would be cheesy and borderline cheating. I'd rule against it on principle, as a GM.
Ah well, we disagree. For me its not much different than starting fires with an EB or something. It's just one of those juicy side effects of SFX.

[D?M]

Had a character once, a brick based on Juggernaut.

Had a elemental control framewoirk that bordered on "just too much"
Spent most of his time in Hero ID because of his limitations.

Normal stats at max of 20 in non-heroic persona.

IN heroic persona:
ST 106, DX 30, CN 61, BD 33, IN 10, EG 10, PR 46, CO 10
PD 30, ED 30, SPD 4, REC 52, END 122, STN 117
Elemental Control (Mystic Stone powers)
IIF stone focus
independent focus
only in hero ID

dmg resistance 33p/e
life support (full)
mental def 40
PD reduction (resistant) 75%
ED reduction (resistant) 75%
knockbk resistance 20
power def 33
flash def (sight and sound) 16
15-pt growth, 0 end, persistent, always on
+9d6 HA, 1/2 END, only when moving
superleap +22
str +71
dex +20
con +41
bod +20
pre +36
rec +20
OCV +10, all attks

Many opponenets had some difficulty to confiscate the stone focus.
Often killed people accidentally even when he pulled punches.

[Eyendasky80]

I'd like to get this guy in under 400 points, but I can live with between 400 and 450.

[D?M]

I'd like to get this guy in under 400 points, but I can live with between 400 and 450.
If you are speaking of my RAMPAGE character with the "just too much" elemental control framework, he is under 400.
I will post the costs tonight.

He has no special fighting maneuvers (Multipower of tricks), just brawn and smash like Grond.

[Eyendasky80]

I was referring to the original topic of this post, Juggernaut.

[D?M]

I was referring to the original topic of this post, Juggernaut.
Sorry, my bad...

[Eyendasky80]

No apology needed. We're pretty far off the rails by now.

500!