HEEEEEEEELPPPPPPP!

[Yamo]

I am doing CRAZY here. I simply cannot get a Fantasy HERO game going and I'm this close to just giving up. I just can't find a satisfying way to do magic!

1. Individual spells: Too expensive. Unless I load everything down with Limitations until it's weak and buggy as hell. I don't want ANY Limitations on my magic except Gestures and Incantations. I hate mages that feel like gimps because they're loaded down with -3 (or more) worth of Limitations on every spell. Energy Blast 8d6 with a decent AoE (what I would consider a good MID-POWER spell) is still a whopping 40 points with those Limitations. Do you have any idea how long it takes a Heroic character to save up 40 points? "Sure you can have a new spell...After ten more advantures!" And if you want to blow up castles with a gesture, summon demon lords, or turn an army into toads, you're just out of luck, unless you want to play a year or so in real time just to accumulate the experience to buy a single spell.

2. Multipower: Too cheap by far. Beginning mages end up being able to buy effective spells for ridiculous costs (like one point for an Autofire RKA).

3. Elemental Control: Too expensive. It's the bit about the points in each slot having to at least equal the points in the base EC that make this unviable. Even at half price, spells with real costs over 40 or so are still too expensive to be practical in a Heroic game.

4. Variable Point Pool: Too expensive, too abusive, and too slow in play. Even if you limit it to only pre-approved spells, the "Cosmic" Advantages required to make it as useful as I'd like in combat still adds a massive +2 to the cost. How can I have a decent 100 point starting mage when basic proficiency with magic (say, a meager 20-point VPP) is going to run him 90 points? And improving it would take ages and probably just lead to the frustrated player giving up an leaving for a system where he can at gets better at magic on a regular basis.

If I go with a too expensive method, mages advance ridiculously slowly and are pathetic in a fight compared to their comrades (i.e. the warrior just bought All Combat CSLs with the 40 points you wasted on a AoE energy blast that won't even knock out most targets).

A too expensive method, and the opposite is true (i.e. the mage just bought four highly useful spells with the same 8 points the fighter wasted on his one puny CSL).

So, anyway, I'm this close to just saying "HERO doesn't work for fantasy. Period." and going back to D&D or something. What can I do? I just want a system where mages advance in magical power at about the same rate they do in most fantasy rpgs. Is that too much to ask? HERO does everything either ridiculously fast or glacially slow and either way there's no balance whatsoever with non-Power-heavy characters.

IS THERE NO WAY TO BALANCE MAGES!!?!?! :( :( :(

[Super Squirrel]

Originally posted by Yamo
I am doing CRAZY here. I simply cannot get a Fantasy HERO game going and I'm this close to just giving up. I just can't find a satisfying way to do magic! I have a Lumina Priestess built on 25 + 25 points. You can get spells cheap without going overboard. Of course I used a multipower but still...

Originally posted by Yamo
3. Elemental Control: Too expensive. It's the bit about the points in each slot having to at least equal the points in the base EC that make this unviable. Even at half price, spells with real costs over 40 or so are still too expensive to be practical in a Heroic game. I think the solution is simple actually. You can give a -1 limitation to all Elemental Controls entitled "Magic". This limitation could be used in many ways. For example, Magic could be highly detectable. In my fantasy setting anyone who has fire magic knows when fire magic is being used nearby. (fire is one 6 elementals) This cuts the price of the EC in half and balances it out fairly well.

Another way to balance out spells is make them independent like weapons and armor. A mage can get them from research and doesn't pay points for them. You can balance it out by having them obtain perks like Access. Say 1 point of Access is worth 5 pts of Real points in spells. So if you wanted to have 6 30 active points spells it costs 36 points. They can lose the spells and regain them in game.

Just somethings to think about.

[mudpyr8]

Yamo, I used to be in the same boat. If you are willing to stretch the rules a little take a look at http://www.tekhed.com/hero/rulesindex.php

We've used these rules in a Cyberpunk setting and two current Fantasy games, and it is a lot of fun. Using this system, Hero is now our fantasy system of choice.

Feel free to email me with any questions you have about the system, especially if you find anything confusing.

I also encourage you to join one of my two sessions at Origins and GenCon using this system.

[mudpyr8]

In one of our current campaigns we have a 117pt Necromancer. I'm attaching his character sheet to give you some perspecitve. If you think this is an acceptable power level, then I think you might have a solution.

[Talon]

Originally posted by Yamo
So, anyway, I'm this close to just saying "HERO doesn't work for fantasy. Period." and going back to D&D or something.

Hahahahahahahahaha that's a good one. :)

It seems to me that you are having trouble at least in part because you haven't specified what it is you are looking for. I would suggest writing up spells for sample mages at various stages (weak NPC, starting PC, mid-campaign PC, maxed out PC, master villain NPC, etc.). Don't write up the whole character (obviously you can't, yet), just focus on the spells. Once you have those down, you'll have some idea what it is you need to cram into your design space, and the right solution should hopefully present itself.

[lensman]

Originally posted by Yamo
II just can't find a satisfying way to do magic!

A too expensive method, and the opposite is true (i.e. the mage just bought four highly useful spells with the same 8 points the fighter wasted on his one puny CSL).

So, anyway, I'm this close to just saying "HERO doesn't work for fantasy. Period." and going back to D&D or something. What can I do? I just want a system where mages advance in magical power at about the same rate they do in most fantasy rpgs. Is that too much to ask?
IS THERE NO WAY TO BALANCE MAGES!!?!?! :( :( :(

Been there Yamo But what ever you do keep the faith. Back to D & D, Never.

So build in a curve. You want a system that maybe is easy to start with some diveristy of spells but not to powerful. then gradually get more spells with increasing power.

Here are some ideas that I have had either in concert with others or myself.

Start with a system that models how fighters start in Hero.
Make a series of spells that model the weapons groups of fighters, only with spells. Simply buy SF; ( spell familiarites) for Groups or uncommon spells.
As GM create spells that Require the limitations you wantwith active and real costs for balance, then create groups for them.
i.e.: Swords might be a HKA with 0 END adv, Maces might have +1 STUN mod, Pole arms would have Stretching,
Shielkds could add +1 to +3 Def or DCV, Bows could be RKA
Long Bows could have increased range, cRossbows could be bought with AP or Penetrating
or instead of straight analogs, you could add variations like
+ 3 -5 Lightning reflexes to spells , faster than any sword is the mind of a Mage, or change the effects to other effects such as Flash or Drain or Trandsfer

Try giving the Mages to adventure for Knowledge or objects that grant _1 limitations. If learned they could apply to a class type of Spells, single spell type, or single spell effect like Darkness or Spell SFX or in combination.
Same for Active points.


For multipowers just make a rule that all spells must be Multi slots You could also build in a mechanic Limit on the MP that
a double number of spells are requires at lower AP
I.e.: 8 spells at 40 active support 4 spells at 80 active which support 2 spells at 160 active. Or any steps you think work.
That way a MU could have a lot of lower spells like shield, dispel, detect, Rka, flight etc, running but when he wants a big effect he lowers his repitoire. Which works great for spells that are continuious or constant because he has to keep the slot there. As soon as he shifts away the spell ends

I really have not found a way to make Elemental control work yet , so I agree with you here.

you could use a VPP buy having the characterbuild a lot of spells before hand ,say on idex cards, then use a VPP to reflect the spells he has on hand without changing them by switching out spells by use of a spell book or other method.

Those are some of my ideas. Just think outside the box. but what ever you do make sure you have a way to explain to players that any system or rule or mechanic you create adds flavor to the game and is not just a way to &%$(* them.

[Yamo]

We've used these rules in a Cyberpunk setting and two current Fantasy games, and it is a lot of fun. Using this system, Hero is now our fantasy system of choice.

It looks interesting, but it's just too "house ruley" for me. I always maintain that if I need to do that much whole cloth additions and radical tweaking of a system, odds are there's already another system out there that does what I want out of the box without the inelegant kludges. I think I'm going to stick with all 100% "legal" stuff from FREd exclusively. No new Characteristics and so forth. If that's not workable, I'll just switch to another system.

It seems to me that you are having trouble at least in part because you haven't specified what it is you are looking for. I would suggest writing up spells for sample mages at various stages (weak NPC, starting PC, mid-campaign PC, maxed out PC, master villain NPC, etc.). Don't write up the whole character (obviously you can't, yet), just focus on the spells.

The problem isn't so much what I want to do as how hard it is to balance character that can do it with those that can't. Here's some example of attack spells:

Starting spell:

Fire Arrow: RKA 1d6+1 (20 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Total Cost: 13 points

Low/mid-power spell:

Mage Bolt: RKA 1d6, AVLD (defense is Power Defense; +1 1/2) (37 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Total Cost: 25 points

Mid-power spell:

Fireball: RKA 2d6, Area Of Effect (3" Radius; +1) (60 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Total Cost: 40 points

High-power spell:

Lightning Storm: RKA 3d6, Indirect (always comes from the sky above; +1/2)), Area Of Effect (7" Radius, Selective Target; +1 1/4), (124 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Limited Power: Only Outdoors (-1/2), Total Cost: 62 points

Ultra high-power spell:

Hellfire Vortex: RKA 4d6, NND (defense is any form of Desolidification or being a demon or other creature of Hell; +1), Does BODY (+1), Area Of Effect (18" Radius; +1) (240 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Total Cost: 160 points

In other words, the most powerful mages in the world can take out an army as easily as an apprentice mage can take out a goblin.

The problem is, it should take each of the four spellcasters that use these spells the same amount of time and effort to master each one, their abilities all being equal relative to the task in each case. In each case, it would ideally take no more than two or three game sessions. In HERO, using a "one spell = one Power" system, it might take literally years at the standard rates of experience gain for the ultra high-powered mage to learn Hellfire Vortex.

In D&D, for example, it tends to take a similar amount of time for a wizard character to advance to 18th level and add Wish to his spellbook as it did for him to advance to 2nd level and add Magic Missile. Sure, he needs a lot more experience points, but he's fighting tougher monsters, so the required quantity accumulates just as fast.

It balances out, more or less, because the spells are arbitrarily "costed" within the system, not accounted for with objectively-measured points. Not so in HERO. In HERO, if the Wish spell costs the wizard 200 points, it's just not fair to not also give 200 points to the fighter, even if this means making fighters in the campaign much more powerful than you intended. In D&D, the wizard can gain the Wish spell without the fighter increasing his power to the degree that he would in HERO if the point cost of the spell was awarded to both character in experience points and it's still balanced because the system is set up to make it so.

In Heroic level HERO, however, the Power-heavy character will always cost exponentially more than the character that's all Characteristics, Talents, and CSLs. A 20th level D&D wizard might be a 1500 point-character easily (using the single spell = single Power system). A 20th level D&D fighter would be maybe 500 at most. Use something like a VPP, a Multipower, or an EC for the spells and you end up with a problem just as bad: Two 500-point characters, one of which is actually effectively a 1500-point one.

What's the solution?

[sbarron]

Originally posted by Yamo
2. Multipower: Too cheap by far. Beginning mages end up being able to buy effective spells for ridiculous costs (like one point for an Autofire RKA).

I think that Multipower is the way to go. However, you are going to have to exert control over how and when the multipower increases in power and when new spells can be added. Some sort of tiered system will probably work best, though the specifics will depend on the kind of game you are running. This is also a way to provide incentives to PCs to buy skills they might not otherwise feel are neccesary. Here is an example I just made up off the top of my head:

20 Active Point Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 12-, (2) KS: Magic 12-, (3) Spell Research of 12-, (4) Have an INT of 13+

30 Active Point Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 14-, (2) KS: Magic 14-, (3) Spell Research of 14-, (4) Have an INT of 18+, (5) be at least a 125 point character, (6) have the sanction of the Wizard Guild to cast spells of this power.

40 Active Point Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 16-, (2) KS: Magic 16-, (3) Spell Research of 16-, (4) KS: Astrology 11- (5) Have an INT of 20+, (6) be at least a 150 point character, (7) have the sanction of the Wizard Guild to cast spells of this power.

50 Active Points Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 18-, (2) KS: Magic 18-, (3) Spell Research of 18-, (4) KS: Fey Lines of Dor`uun 11-, (5) KS: Astrology 13-, (6) Have an INT of 23+, (7) be at least a 175 point character, (8) have the sanction of the Wizard Guild to cast spells of this power.

60 Active Points Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 20-, (2) KS: Magic 20-, (3) Spell Research of 20-, (4) KS: Golgor Convergence Theory 11-, (5) KS: Fey Lines of Dor`uun 13-, (6) KS: Astrology 15-, (7) Have an INT of 25+, (8) be at least a 200 point character, (9) have the sanction of the Wizard Guild to cast spells of this power.

How you set the parameters for advancement are up to you, and will largely depend on the type of game that you are trying to run. Setting expensive standards for advancement to the next "level" will slow mages down. Making then relatively cheap will speed them up. You just need to find a way to control and limit the PC mages multipower without making seem like Gm fiat.

This set-up has always worked will for me for fighters, thieves, whatever. Giving a fighter a list of skills needed before he can go from +6 to +7 with his sword provides the GM the ability to effectively shape the charater, without seeming to be too intrusive. It does require a little work up front in creating a system of prerequisites, but I think it's worth it. And it's not like you come to GM in Hero and not be willing to do a little work creating your campaign anyway, right? :)

[mudpyr8]

I like Sbarron's idea. I've also seen proposed on the forums a system using VPP that requires the mage to find the spells and add them to his spellbook. You could easily mimic the D&D spell management system and once they are in the book, the mage can use them in his VPP. Only all the mage to change the VPP once a day, or 15 min per 10 active points, or whatever.

As for "house rules", Hero is the Gamer's Toolkit. It says so right on the cover. With GM permission, the "legality" of a particular power or solution is irrelivant. You need to determine what feel you want to have for your magic system. The reason I created my magic system is BECAUSE there weren't systems out there that worked the way I wanted them to. GURPS didn't, D&D didn't , Ars Magica didn't, Earthdawn didn't, RoleMaster didn't, Warhammer didn't, Talislanta didn't, Dark Age Mage didn't, and so on. Each magic system is creates a particular feel that is often inexorably tied to the game world. If I wanted just the right feel for my world I HAD to create my own. But creating a system from scratch is much more challenging than creating one from an existing framework like Hero.

It looks interesting, but it's just too "house ruley" for me. I always maintain that if I need to do that much whole cloth additions and radical tweaking of a system, odds are there's already another system out there that does what I want out of the box without the inelegant kludges. I think I'm going to stick with all 100% "legal" stuff from FREd exclusively. No new Characteristics and so forth. If that's not workable, I'll just switch to another system.
So, I would refute your odds that there is another system out there that does everything you want to do, there certainly wasn't for me. I also take some small offence that my system is an inelegant kludge, but potayto potahto. 100% legal is another issue, and I think you will find that rules lawyering isn't what Hero is all about, otherwise you may find yourself beating your head against the wall arguing about a -1/4 limitation or something equally minor. And, for the record, the characteristics I used were presented in previous editions of Fantasy Hero material so this is nothing new.

The strength of Hero is the ability to extend it. "To list is to limit" meaning it isn't a great idea to provide a rule for everything, much like our modern legal system. The GM is the one who determines the appropriateness or legality of a particular ruling, especially since context and setting have more impact on the rules than anything else.

My suggestion is to go with a VPP solution with some arbitrary limitations (ala Limited Power) that create the pacing you want. Just be careful with movement powers and defenses as they are very cheap and unbalancing.

[slaughterj]

I've had the same issues, and in the past used the spell colleges system (i.e., separate buy, lots o' limitations). One solution to "increasing" the cost of a MP, other than requiring the slots to be multi, is to require that each spell have to be learned before bought, i.e., a 2pt KS (or 1pt with Scholar?), in addition to buying the slot. This is not just an artificial cost increaser though, the skill would be useful in a several ways:
1. To research and develop related spells (use as a complementary skill)
2. To identify the same or similar spell being cast (lots of uses for this, like Spellcraft in D&D, know what the effect is going to be, know whether to "counter" it with a held action, etc.).
3. It represents "learned" magic, rather than Sorceror-style (think D&D) magic.

[sbarron]

Originally posted by Yamo
It balances out, more or less, because the spells are arbitrarily "costed" within the system, not accounted for with objectively-measured points.

-edit-

In Heroic level HERO, however, the Power-heavy character will always cost exponentially more than the character that's all Characteristics, Talents, and CSLs. A 20th level D&D wizard might be a 1500 point-character easily (using the single spell = single Power system). A 20th level D&D fighter would be maybe 500 at most. Use something like a VPP, a Multipower, or an EC for the spells and you end up with a problem just as bad: Two 500-point characters, one of which is actually effectively a 1500-point one.

What's the solution?

You keep comparing things to D&D, so I'd just like to make a couple of observations. There is nothing balanced about D&D. At first level mages are largely useless, and fighters are neccesary to ensure party survival. At 20 level, the opposite is true. The only thing that keeps fighters useful at the higher levels is that they can protect the mage from attacks while they do their thing, and they have kewl magic items.

People don't create mages because they like sucking at first level. They make them so they can (hopefully) make it to 20th level. People create fighters to be good now, with the understanding that eventually the mages and the clerics will pass them buy in relative usefulness.

The description you made about the two 500 point characters, one that is really a 1500 pt mage and the other that is a fighter is pretty accurate. That's how it works in D&D. The only problem I see is that Hero demonstrates that discepancy. Finding a way to fix that is the problem. I don't think you can "fix" it in D&D. You obviously don't think that it is broken in D&D, and I'd tend to agree, if only because I understand going into a D&D game that that is the dynamic between wizards and fighters. In Hero (at least in theory), you don' t have to fix it. The points are balanced.

I think most peoples problems in Hero with mages and balance is trying to make low powered mages as powerful (not "as useful") as fighters at lower points totals. The power frameworks make this possible. However, as you have rightly pointed out, at the high end of the sprectrum these frameworks shift the bablance of power in the favor of the mage. I have never seen a 500 pt Fantasy Hero character. But I would bet that if you built the mage without a power framework, and just built a 500 pt fighter, things would be pretty balanced between the two. Maybe you would need to do away with NCM?

I'm not sure what all this means, but I think it is an interesting dicussion. I'll have to think about it some more and come back after lunch.

[C_Zeree]

Sbarron,

In your MP idea above, does the mage have to buy each of those MP's or are those simply the requirements before a player can pump another 10 XP into his multipower?

I assume the latter, but...

Always looking for interesting ideas, and the "reqirements" struck me as good campaign flavor.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Yamo
In other words, the most powerful mages in the world can take out an army as easily as an apprentice mage can take out a goblin.

Yamo, the implications of this statement make me wonder whether your assumptions about spellcasting might be at the root of your problem. This is a very D&D approach to mages, turning them into mobile artillery at higher levels. Virtually nowhere in source literature or legend does a mortal wizard have the capacity to just wave his hands, say a few words and wipe out an army; at best that's a capability reserved for the gods. Spells of that magnitude are certainly available to wizards of epic high fantasy, but they normally have a lot of conditions that limit their use: require elaborate apparatus, special materials, great concentration and skill to cast, time-consuming ceremonies, only function at a certain time or in a certain place, etc. That actually works much better from a story point of view, since it allows heroes opportunities to disrupt a casting the completion of which would spell their doom - gives 'em a chance to be heroic.;)

The D&D style "super mage" has always been considered to be the most unbalanced character class in the game, wimpy at low levels, overwhelming at high levels. D&D has tried to balance this by artificially weakening the mage's abilities in hand-to-hand combat and related areas, leaving magic as his main combat capability. HERO doesn't do that as a default; magicians can wear armor, use swords, have stealth-related skills, etc. They can be similar to other characters, except that they have other abilities that those characters don't have. Remember that all characters can get their weapons and armor for free in heroic-level games. From this point of view, HERO is supremely balanced for fantasy. It requires your spells to either cost a great deal if they're not heavily limited, so that your character's point cost reflects how much more powerful he is than non-spell casters; or else have enough Limitations on spells that their Real Cost is more in line with Skills and Talents available to non-magical characters. This was the model presented in the 4E version of Fantasy HERO, which I've followed for years and been quite satisfied with.

Having said all that, I realize that you may still prefer to go with a super mage type, which is completely your choice. So, as promised, here are a few suggestions more in line with your original request:

Go with the Multipower framework, but have separate Multipowers for different classes of spells: either a particular style or discipline (illusion, necromancy, divination, etc.) or spells with particular game effects (offensive, defensive, movement). People wanting spells in a certain category would have to buy a Multipower to at least the Active Points of the largest spell they want to use.

Another way to balance the Multipower appoach is to limit the total number of spells a character can have access to, to the number of points of a Characteristic that he has (probably INT), so that the character has to buy up his INT to increase the number of spells in addition to adding a Multipower slot.

Alternatively, the characters could have to buy a "Spell Research" skill which they must successfully use outside of game-session time in order to add a new spell to their repertoire. If the Research roll is modified by the Active Points in the spell being researched, the caster would have to invest more points in the Skill to successfully research powerful spells, and/ or take more time to research the spell which would slow the spellcaster's advancement.

Good luck, and don't give up on HERO for fantasy. :)

[keithcurtis]

Remember, just because a player has the points to buy something doesn't mean they should be allowed to do so. The fighter-type might have enough XP to buy 10 points of flight, but you wouldn't allow it because it is non-sensical within the game world. Limit spells likewise. Have a list of available spells. In order to learn new ones, the players must find, research or outright buy them with money. <I>Then</i> they can spend the points. If you go the research route, make it as difficult or expensive as you want the rarity of the spell to be. Perhaps 1 week for the first ten AP of the spell, then one month for a 20 AP spell and so on up the time chart. Adjust for suitability.

There are other ways to limit availability:
Maybe spells can only be learned at approved institutions of higher learning.
Maybe they can only be granted by the gods after a great service is performed.
Maybe each spell has only one teacher, or one discreet place where it can be learned. This could really promote cross-country travel.
Maybe a Wizard can only know a certain number of spells and to learn new ones, he must forget old ones.
Maybe magic is divided by types and a player can only learn a type for which he has spent a year of study. Or ten years.

I'm sure you can think of many more.
In closing, don't be afraid to impose a meta-game structure. That is, one which is imposed by GM fiat based on the world description and not supported by a game mechanic. None of the suggestions I have made should require any Power Limitation.

Keith "Magicologist" Curtis

[Shadowpup]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Yamo, the implications of this statement make me wonder whether your assumptions about spellcasting might be at the root of your problem. This is a very D&D approach to mages, turning them into mobile artillery at higher levels. Virtually nowhere in source literature or legend does a mortal wizard have the capacity to just wave his hands, say a few words and wipe out an army;

Pug

Sethra Lavode

But they're pretty exceptional.

Yamo did say he only wanted to require the limitations Gestures and Incantations. That being the case, a multipower might be the way to go. The slots are cheap but since they are only ever going to be -1/2, it's not so bad. Requiring that spell casters have Magic Skill to have spells in the first place is a good idea. The progressive background skills for higher point limit is a good idea along with something like 2xINT cap.

[Old Man]

"4. Variable Point Pool: Too expensive, too abusive, and too slow in play." I agree totally.

"3. Elemental Control: Too expensive... Even at half price, spells with real costs over 40 or so are still too expensive to be practical in a Heroic game." I'm not so sure. An EC with a lot of spells in it is similar to having an extra -1 limitation on each slot, pointswise. And it does have the added bonus of discouraging the one-spell mage. The problem with ECs is that there are way undercosted powers, so that if the EC is set for 40-point-active powers, then the forcefield skyrockets to 14rPD/14rED 0 END.

"2. Multipower: Too cheap by far. Beginning mages end up being able to buy effective spells for ridiculous costs (like one point for an Autofire RKA)." I used to think MPs were okay, but then I actually built some mages using them, and I ran into this exact problem. The slots are so cheap that there's no reason to put further limitations on them, and limitations are what make Hero powers feel like magic as opposed to superhero mutant powers.

"1. Individual spells: Too expensive. Unless I load everything down with Limitations until it's weak and buggy as hell. I don't want ANY Limitations on my magic except Gestures and Incantations." Well, you could always crank up the limitations for Inc/Gest in your campaign. In 1st ed. FH they were worth -1/2 apiece. Or you could just give away an additional -1/2 limitation to the mages somehow. But part of the problem is that your example is poor--area effect attacks are very, very expensive in FH. So are drains and transfers. That's one of the peculiarities of the game. Try using force field as an example instead. =P

I should add that I prefer FH magic to have a lot of limitations to give it the right feel. Inc, Gest, Concentrate and Extra Time (full phase), in addition to the skill roll are what I would consider the bare minimum. But that's just me.

[Yamo]

Okay, how does this sound?

1. All magic spells must be bought as fixed slots in a Magic Multipower. The Multipower is limited to a maximum number of slots equal to the mage's "natural" (i.e. unmodified by spells, magic items, or any Power) INT and once purchased, slots may not be "forgotten" or otherwise abandoned to make room for new ones. Lost INT will not result in lost slots, however. All slots must cost END, even if only to activate (a +1/4 Advantage on Powers that naturally cost END and a -1/4 Limitation on ones that don't). All slots must take the Gestures and Incantations Limitations. No Limitations (or Adders/Advantages) on the Magic Multipower Reserve itself are permitted except those signifying specialization (see below).

2. The Magic Multipower draws END from the mage's Mana Pool, an END Reserve that recovers approximately 1/8 of its value per hour the mage sleeps. The amount of END in a mage's Mana Pool may never exceed the Active Points in his or her Magic Multipower Reserve. The Mana Pool's REC must always be as close to 1/8th of its total END as possible, although the player may elect to purchase the greater value if the two closest whole numbers are equally removed from exactly 1/8th (as in the case of 2 REC versus 3 REC on a 20 END Mana Pool). Other than the mandatory degrees of Limited Recovery and Slow Recovery (which do not reduce its cost), no other Limitations (or Adders/Advantages) on the Mana Pool are permitted.

3. Mages may specialize in particular forms of magic, at the expense of limiting their ability to master other forms. In game terms, this takes the form of a -1/4 or -1/2 Limitation on the Magic Multipower Reserve. This Limitation can be applied only to the cost of the Reserve, not to individual slots.

A mage whose specialization prevents him or her from learning particular types of spells is also prevented from created any type of magic item that includes "prohibited" types of magic.

Some examples of specialization Limitations:

-1/4: Only Necromancy And Fire Magic, Only Elemental (Earth, Wind, Water, and Fire) Magic, No Divination Magic, No Illusion Magic

-1/2: Only Necromancy, Only Fire Magic, Only Nature Magic, Only Illusion Magic

4. Spells that persist after the points allocated to them are shifted to another Multipower slot can be built with the Uncontrolled Advantage, provided they meet with GM approval. All such spells must have either a set duration or a set means of deactivation (or both, if the GM rules so). For example, a Force Field spell might deactivate automatically after five minutes while a flame-based Uncontrolled RKA spell might cease automatically after three Turns and be able to be doused prior to that with water or rolling on the ground. In the case of spells with little tactical (or "munchkin") value, such as a continual torchlight spell that a mage wishes to use to light his laboratory, the allowable duration or deactivation clause might be extremely liberal at GM's discretion (a duration measured in months or years, perhaps).

5. To build spells that will be "given" to others with the Usable By Other or Usable Simultaneously Advantages, first use the Differing Modifiers method to construct the spell as the target will use it. It should be both Uncontrolled (with a set duration and/or common means of deactivation) and 0 END. Use the cost of this spell as the base cost for the slot prior to applying any modifiers that the mage must employ when initially casting the spell. The mage is still required to pay END and abide by the required Gestures and Incantations Limitations when building the final spell.

6. All proposed new spell slots are subject to GM veto or modification without exception. In addition to the player securing GM approval, a mage character must do the following to add a new spell slot:

a) Have a Magic Multipower Reserve at least equal to the new spell's Active Point cost.

b) Have experience points sufficient to purchase the new Multipower slot.

c) Have an "open" slot available (i.e. have less existing slots than his current "natural" INT).

d) Spend a period of weeks equal to the Active Points of the spell divided by ten (minimum of one week) in study of an existing spell (one learned via a tome, scroll, the tutalage of another mage, etc) or a period of weeks equal to the Active Points of the spell divided by five (minimum of two weeks) in research on a new one (created from scratch by the mage). Creation of a new spell also requires access to rare components and an appropriate magic library and laboratory with costs and difficulty to acquire and maintain such determined by the GM.

e) To successfully learn an existing spell, the mage must succeed in a a KS: Magic Roll with a -1 penality for each ten Active Points in the spell (minumum of -1). To successfully learn a new spell, the mage must succeed in a KS: Magic Roll with a -1 penality for each five Active Points in the spell (minimum of -2). If this roll is failed, one experience point is expended and the caster may try again to learn the spell after a rest period of one week. No other Skills (and no other uses of the same Skill by other parties) may be used as Complementary Skills for purposes of these rolls.

7. All proposed magic items are subject to GM veto or modification without exception. In addition to the player securing GM approval, a mage character must do the following to attempt to create a magic item:

a) A mage may not create any magic item with a total Active Point cost greater than his or her Magic Multipower Reserve.

b) In the case of "permanent" magic items, the mage must possess experience points sufficient to purchase the item.

c) Potions, scrolls, and other "disposable" magic items with three or less Charges can be built using a Magic Multipower slot (learned as a normal spell) with the Trigger Advantage and appropriate rare and expensive Expendable Foci.

d) Weapons, armor, and other "permanent" magic items or magic items with more than three Charges do not utilize a dedicated Magic Multipower slot to create, but rather are effectively purchased as individual Powers seperate from a mage's Magic Multipower. All such items must take the Independent and Focus Limitations and also require rare or expensive raw materials (which will be expended during the creation process) as determined by the GM.

e) "Disposable" items require one full day to create per ten Active Points in their combined Powers (minimum of one day). "Permanent" items require one full week to create per ten active points in their combined Powers (minimum of one week). Only Powers representing "disposable" items may take this time increment as an Extra Time Limitation.

f) Creation of any magic item requires a successful PS: Mage Roll with a penality of -1 per ten Active Points in the item's combined Powers for a "disposable" item (minimum of -1) or a penalty of -1 per five Active Points in the item's combined Powers for a "permanent" item (minimum of -2). A failure of this roll results in the loss of all raw materials required for creation of the item. In the case of an Independent magic item, failure of this roll also results in the loss of one experience point and imposes at least a one week rest period before enchantment can be attempted again. No other Skills (and no other uses of the same Skill by other parties) may be used as Complementary Skills for purposes of these rolls.

8. Magic-related Skills:

a) The Power: Magic Skill is to be used primarily as the default Required Skill Roll for Magic Multipower spells (unless another type of roll is specified). Magical Skill Versus Skill contests between mages also use this Skill by default. It is also used to adjucate minor "cantrip" effects too trivial to merit expenditure of character points (lighting campfires, blowing colored smoke rings, making pancakes flip themselves, etc). Even characters without a Magic Multipower proper might purchase it for a little bit of extra flavor (representing something like untrained "latent" magical talent or the barest rudiments of formal magical training).

b) The KS: Magic Skill is used primarily to adjucate success or failure with regard to attempts by mages to learn new spells. It can also be used, however, to recall bits and pieces of magical theory or lore in the matter of a standard KS.

c) The PS: Mage Skill is used to determine success or failure of magic item creation.

9. All starting mage characters in my 50 + 25 campaign will be required to purchase their Powers with one of the following package deal:

Apprentice Mage Package Deal

Skills:

KS: Magic, Total Cost: 3 points
Power: Magic (INT-Based), Total Cost: 3 points
PS: Mage, Total Cost: 3 points

Powers:

Mana Pool: Endurance Reserve (20 END, 3 REC; powers Magic Multipower) (5 Active Points), Limited Recovery (only when character is sleeping; -0), Slow Recovery (hourly; -0), Total Cost: 5 points

Magic: 20-point Multipower Reserve (20 Active Points), Total Cost: 20 points

Six points of spell slots for Magic Multipower

Total Cost Of Package: 40 points

Apprentice Specialist Mage Package Deal I

Skills:

KS: Magic, Total Cost: 3 points
Power: Magic (INT-Based), Total Cost: 3 points
PS: Mage, Total Cost: 3 points

Powers:

Mana Pool: Endurance Reserve (20 END, 3 REC; powers Magic Multipower) (5 Active Points), Limited Recovery (only when character is sleeping; -0), Slow Recovery (hourly; -0), Total Cost: 4 points

Magic: 20-point Multipower Reserve (20 Active Points), Limited Power (Specialization Limitation Of Player's Choice; -1/4), Total Cost: 16 points

Six points of spell slots for Magic Multipower

Total Cost Of Package: 36 points

Apprentice Specialist Mage Package Deal II

Skills:

KS: Magic, Total Cost: 3 points
Power: Magic (INT-Based), Total Cost: 3 points
PS: Mage, Total Cost: 3 points

Powers:

Mana Pool: Endurance Reserve (20 END, 3 REC; powers Magic Multipower) (5 Active Points), Limited Recovery (only when character is sleeping; -0), Slow Recovery (hourly; -0), Total Cost: 5 points

Magic: 20-point Multipower Reserve (20 Active Points), Limited Power (Specialization Limitation Of Player's Choice; -1/2), Total Cost: 13 points

Six points of spell slots for Magic Multipower

Total Cost Of Package: 33 points

[sbarron]

Originally posted by C_Zeree
Sbarron,

In your MP idea above, does the mage have to buy each of those MP's or are those simply the requirements before a player can pump another 10 XP into his multipower?

I assume the latter, but...

Always looking for interesting ideas, and the "reqirements" struck me as good campaign flavor.

Yes, the latter. Basically, the PC buys the initial 20pt MP, and the requisite skills to use it during character creation. Then as he progresses in XP, and meets the neccesary requirements, he can increase the power of his MP.

How often he can buy additional spells to go into his MP is another concern, and the answer would vary based on how the GM wanted to run the game. I would probably let them buy spells they took the time to research, or those they found in other spellbooks, etc. Because any points that they spent growing the number of spell in their current sized MP are going to points they aren't spending on making it more powerful. So you could have low powered mages with a wide variety of spells, or high powered ones who only know a few.

[C_Zeree]

Just my thoughts on the matter, I hope I am not attacking anyone.

Originally posted by Old Man
"4. Variable Point Pool: Too expensive, too abusive, and too slow in play." I agree totally.
It is all in how your magic system is built. Sure if you give the character free reign, abuse is natural. Unless you are playing a MAGE game the VPP should be limited: what the mage has in his book, knowledge of his guardian spirits, what shaping stones he posses.

Speed can be helped: People have mentioned keeping known spells on index cards, or with hero designer, just keep a listing of powers on a sheet. Limit their use in game to those spells.

Cost is prohibitive, and possibly that’s the price to play a mage. Others put 30 points into skills or stats, the mage has to invest it in magical training & power. I see it as a decent trade off, IMHO.

"2. Multipower: .. The slots are so cheap that there's no reason to put further limitations on them, and limitations are what make Hero powers feel like magic as opposed to superhero mutant powers.
As you said you put lims on spells because you want that flavor. Why don’t you put the lims on in a MP? The lims are flavor in the game, not because you want to shave points.

Try using force field as an example instead. =P
Yep…

You appear to be finding a decent solution. Luck to you Yamo. :)

[BNakagawa]

Obviously, I know nothing about your setting or your house rules, but in general, FH mages don't need power frameworks to be effective, they need intelligent players and cooperative GMs.

A beginning FH mage can do things no beginning PC can do without spending an assload of points. The trick is, the mage can't do everything, and especially not everything all at once.

If your players are capable of coming up with character concepts that are tight, concise and reasonable, there's no reason you can't build a perfectly reasonable, functional and entertaining mage on the same points I use to build my sword dancer, archer or armored deathmachine.

$0.02

[Old Man]

Originally posted by C_Zeree

As you said you put lims on spells because you want that flavor. Why don’t you put the lims on in a MP? The lims are flavor in the game, not because you want to shave points.

But there's no incentive for the player to put further lims on the mage's spells. Once the cost of the slot is down to 1.49, further limitations are pointless (at least from the player's perspective). Obviously there are limitations on the MP itself, but often there are other limitations that ought to go on a specific slot, such as reduced penetration or ablative. With multipowers you just don't see this, and that homogenizes magic a lot.

[mudpyr8]

Yamo, seems to me you are cobbling together a bunch of house rules to create the feel you are looking for. A mana pool instead of END, a way to handle duration, all in a power framework. These are all issues I've seen before.

I think you are on the right track, but I think you need to pay heed to the Old Man. I echo his words of wisdom.

Watch out for low active point spells, they will become a challange to balance.

[mudpyr8]

Sing it Old Man. MP's make limitations just about pointless. When you divide the cost of the spell by 10, why limit yourself by dividing by 11. An EC has a much more reasonable multiplier effect, but doesn't really work for low cost spells.

That's why, in my system, I make a distinction between standard (5pt per effect) and special (1 or 2 pts per effect) powers.

[Shadowpup]

Originally posted by Yamo
Okay, how does this sound:

1. All magic spells must be bought as fixed slots in a Magic Multipower. The Multipower is limited to a maximum number of slots equal to twice the mage's "natural" (i.e. unmodified by spells, magic items, or any Power) INT and once purchased, slots may not be "forgotten" or otherwise abandoned to make room for new ones. Lost INT will not result in lost slots, however. All slots must cost END, even if only to activate. All slots must take the Gestures and Incantations Limitations, as must the Multipower Reserve itself. Individual slots may take other Limitations, but only Gestures and Incantations can be applied to the reduce the cost of the Multipower Reserve itself.



I would make it number of slots equal to INT rather than 2x INT. 30+ slots is a crap load.

[Yamo]

Sing it Old Man. MP's make limitations just about pointless.

That's part of the point. As I said, I don't LIKE spells with more than -1/2 or so of Limitations. I prefer stuff from the "fire and forget" school. Gestures and Incantations are the extent of what I want to be mandatory for any spell. More than that makes magic feel too "buggy" to me. Too easy to foul up and too limited for use in combat. It's just a personal preference.

This doesn't mean that I'd never use any other Limitations in building a spell that a PC might have the chance to learn in game, just that I don't want PCs to feel like they NEED to water their own spells down with -2 or more worth of Limitations until they feel like total gimps.

I would make it number of slots equal to INT rather than 2x INT. 30+ slots is a crap load.

True. Fixed.

[Talon]

Originally posted by Yamo
In Heroic level HERO, however, the Power-heavy character will always cost exponentially more than the character that's all Characteristics, Talents, and CSLs. A 20th level D&D wizard might be a 1500 point-character easily (using the single spell = single Power system). A 20th level D&D fighter would be maybe 500 at most. Use something like a VPP, a Multipower, or an EC for the spells and you end up with a problem just as bad: Two 500-point characters, one of which is actually effectively a 1500-point one.

What's the solution?

One solution is to stop making the magic user pay for spells. Several magic systems have been proposed which treat spells like equipment: you might pay for the skills to use magic, but the power itself is external. Of course, this tends to make magic very cheap, which doesn't sound like what you want.

You might try decoupling paying points for power level and paying points for spells.

Example: mages must buy Cosmic VPPs with Gestures/Incantations on the control cost, along with "can only learn spells at rate determined by study and GM fiat.". Mage spends XP to increase overall power level, but then learning spells does not require XP, just roleplay as determined by the GM.

That works, but a 160 point Cosmic VPP is going to get a little expensive. So mix in a little of the "don't pay for spells" philosophy: mages pay for the control cost, but not the base pool (the pool is there, but the campaign world pays for it). Thus, 10 active points might cost something like 7.5 XP (5 control, +2 advantages, -1 limitations); a 160 point pool would cost 120 points, which is a big chunk of XP but not wholly unreasonable.

If you still want PCs to spend XP for spells, require a KS: Spell for each spell they use (note that the cost of the KS remains the same regardless of power level).

Hope these ideas are of use.

[C_Zeree]

Originally posted by Old Man
But there's no incentive for the player to put further lims on the mage's spells.
Save the GM's big stick. ;)

Obviously there are limitations on the MP itself, but often there are other limitations that ought to go on a specific slot, such as reduced penetration or ablative. With multipowers you just don't see this, and that homogenizes magic a lot.
Seriously now, I see. Sorry I slightly misunderstood. Its not that they don't take lims X, Y, & Z required by the magic system. They just don't bother flavoring their spells.

Its a shame its not done, but I can understand that point, and conceed that could be/is a problem.

[coach]

Originally posted by Yamo
It balances out, more or less, because the spells are arbitrarily "costed" within the system, not accounted for with objectively-measured points. Not so in HERO. In HERO, if the Wish spell costs the wizard 200 points, it's just not fair to not also give 200 points to the fighter, even if this means making fighters in the campaign much more powerful than you intended. In D&D, the wizard can gain the Wish spell without the fighter increasing his power to the degree that he would in HERO if the point cost of the spell was awarded to both character in experience points and it's still balanced because the system is set up to make it so.

In Heroic level HERO, however, the Power-heavy character will always cost exponentially more than the character that's all Characteristics, Talents, and CSLs. A 20th level D&D wizard might be a 1500 point-character easily (using the single spell = single Power system). A 20th level D&D fighter would be maybe 500 at most. Use something like a VPP, a Multipower, or an EC for the spells and you end up with a problem just as bad: Two 500-point characters, one of which is actually effectively a 1500-point one.

What's the solution?
So, I don't think I understand. Are you saying you want really powerful mages to be way more powerful than really powerful fighters? I mean, if so, who would play a fighter? Personally, I think that D&D is horribly unbalanced and can't imagine why you would want to continue that tradition in a more balanced system.

For example, in our first D&D 3E game, we started at 12th level. I made a Wizard, Titlethwarp Barbekeller, not so much because I wanted to play a Wizard, but more because nobody else did. However, as the game progressed, it eventually became "Titlethwarp and his lackeys", despite the fact that we were all the same level. At one point, it got so ridiculous that I took out three armies of 500 people each while the rest of the party took out a total of about 12 individuals. I was mainly slowed down by the fact that my teammates were in the way and I had to get them out of the way before I could deal with the third army. How is that fair? Why would you want to continue with that format if you didn't have to?

So, of course, in our second game, where we started at 1st level, we all started with fighter-types and switched to magic-using types after 2nd level. By 9th (total) level, we were WAY more than a match for any CR 9 threat.

I would suggest just having the mages pay for each spell individually. So, you have to pay 160 points to destroy an army with the wave of you hand? That seems totally appropriate to me. Why shouldn't the fighter-types and thief-types not be allowed the same amount of power?

I would think that if you go with the Multipower version of the mages, you wll end up with a party full of mages. Of course, if that's what you want, then that would be cool. But, anyone would have to be a fool to take anything else. And, if they do, they will quickly be left behind and find themselves mostly useless.

We have played numerous Fantasy Hero games and find Hero System to be extremely well-suited to it. In all of those we have gone with the "pay for each spell separately" way of buying magic. And pretty much every time, the Mages still come out ahead of things. The main issue, of course, is that mages have access to a vast variety of abities that no one else does. You want some healing, don't look to the fighter. You need some clairvoyance, don't ask the thief. But, we have found it to be decently balanced just to do it that way.

YMMV.

[Thirdbase]

Originally posted by Yamo
I am doing CRAZY here. I simply cannot get a Fantasy HERO game going and I'm this close to just giving up. I just can't find a satisfying way to do magic!

4. Variable Point Pool: Too expensive, too abusive, and too slow in play. Even if you limit it to only pre-approved spells, the "Cosmic" Advantages required to make it as useful as I'd like in combat still adds a massive +2 to the cost. How can I have a decent 100 point starting mage when basic proficiency with magic (say, a meager 20-point VPP) is going to run him 90 points? And improving it would take ages and probably just lead to the frustrated player giving up an leaving for a system where he can at gets better at magic on a regular basis.
IS THERE NO WAY TO BALANCE MAGES!!?!?! :( :( :(

I prefer VPPs

A 20 Point pool cost

20 pts for pool
10 pts for control times (1+2) for cosmic pool divided by (1+1/4+1/4+1) for Gestures, Incantations, and 1 for Only known spells (each spell costs 1 pt for a Fam. with Spell, spells are predefined) 30/2.5=12. I also a KS: Magic that has to be at least 10 + pool/10 or for a 20 pt pool a 12, 30 pts a 13.

Total cost 32 pts + 1 pt per known spell

I also add a house Lim: Leaves Trace -1/2 for 5 minutes additional -1/4 to move down the time chart. +1 to per roll to detect for each 10 active points. That makes my total VPP cost 30 pts + 1 pt per known spell.

Good luck in finding a system you like.

[NuSoardGraphite]

My suggestion is to use the Multipower method but exert control over how/when a mage gets to add additional spells to his list. Come up with some sort of rules for "spell research" using the Inventor skill (renamed for Fantasy Hero of course). If a character can only add 1 spell per month (game time) thats going to limit the number of spells he/she can add to their Multipower during gameplay...and the low cost of Multipower slots allows the mage to grow in other areas besides magic.

I've run several campaigns using the Multipower method, and its worked out quite well for me. Sure the mages could afford to purchase a lot of spells over time, but this is how I think mages should be. Using the method from the old 4th edition Fantasy Hero, gaining power was way too slow for a mage (unless you planned to play for years...I normaly limit my campaigns to about 6 months each)

I've also used the Variable Power Pool method (to represent a free-form magic system like the one from Mage: The Ascension, or The One Power from The Wheel of Time) and that worked out pretty good too, but unless you want your mages capable of just about everything, I wouldn't recommend it.

I haven't tried an Elemental Control magic system yet, but I'm considering using one to represent an Elemental Magic system (Fire, Water, Air etc) I'll get back to you guys on that one.

[Yamo]

My suggestion is to use the Multipower method but exert control over how/when a mage gets to add additional spells to his list.

This is just what I'm going to do. Check my long post a way up for my first draft of such a system.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Ah, okay.

Didn't see that. I was posting during lunchtime at work (thats why I post so early in the morning...I work graveyard shift) so I didn't have time to read through all the posts.

[tiger]

I prefer to have each spell paid for seperately. This allows the mage to use more than one spell at a time, at full STR, and stops mages from being to overpowering as well.

I use the following limitations for magic. Concentration, Uses Mana (-1/2), Requires Skill Roll, Must Cost End To Cast(-1/4). The mage then may add others like Gestures or Incantations and such.

I only require 1/2 DCV on the Concentration although a mage could increase it if he wishes. I use the requires mana, because some areas of my world are with out mana and magic doesn't work there.

Most magic items have the same limitation as well. Only things like potions or items that use charges will still function in a Mana dead area. This is because the mana was "built" into the device. The drawback is that mana dead areas tend to drain mana from such devices. So needless to say mages and those with magic tend to stay away from known magic dead areas.
I even had a mage build and put up a sign on the outskirts of the area to warn others :)

I also have a few other add ins for Wild magic and Psionics

[C_Zeree]

Originally posted by Thirdbase
I prefer VPPs
20 pts for pool...
Total cost 32 pts + 1 pt per known spell
When running your game do have problems using multiple spells at the same time because of the pool size? Or are the limitations enough to fit multiple spells in the pool, and you don't notice?

[swobeas]

I agree mostly with Lord Liaden.

I think that the two limitations gestures and incantations are a little bit too less to draw a picture of a fantasy wizard. Think of concentration for example. This means that the wizard should stand quite still and perform his spell, what is a wonder to other people. Do you really want a wizard jumping around like a frog and just do his gestures with one hand and incantations and the spell works?

Another thing for skill rolls. Should spells work at 100 % Sounds quite boring to mee. Where are the wonderfull magical accidents?

Think about a limitation on armour worn. Or do You want a wizard wearing full field-plate armor?

Think about expandable foci, maybe really rare ones. Or is the magicion allowed to cast 200 Spells a day just under the limit for getting the long term endurance loss?

I hope I could give you some ideas how you could limit the powers, but these lilmitations are quite logical to me and enhance the picture of a real fantasy wizard, where just incantations and gestures are too less to do so.

So far. Stay with HERO for Fantasy, just start thinking of limitations everyone accepts for common sense :D

swobeas

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by NuSoardGraphite
My suggestion is to use the Multipower method but exert control over how/when a mage gets to add additional spells to his list. Come up with some sort of rules for "spell research" using the Inventor skill (renamed for Fantasy Hero of course). If a character can only add 1 spell per month (game time) thats going to limit the number of spells he/she can add to their Multipower during gameplay...and the low cost of Multipower slots allows the mage to grow in other areas besides magic.


Seems a good way to do it might be to say "learning" takes X amount of time, based on the AP of the spell or the increase of the AP to the spell, thus making it harder to get but so many higher AP spells.

[Thirdbase]

Originally posted by C_Zeree
When running your game do have problems using multiple spells at the same time because of the pool size? Or are the limitations enough to fit multiple spells in the pool, and you don't notice?

Well each spell has at least the Gestures, Incantations and Leaves Trace Lims, that totals a -1, plus all spells have to Cost End, and the spells end up having multiple power levels. Plus the VPP is usually higher than 20, I used 20 pts because that is the example that was given, so generally you can have a attack at full power plus several other spells at lower levels loaded. The real trick is that all the spells are predefined by the GM, but that is the pain in the @$$.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Thirdbase
Well each spell has at least the Gestures, Incantations and Leaves Trace Lims, that totals a -1, plus all spells have to Cost End, and the spells end up having multiple power levels. Plus the VPP is usually higher than 20, I used 20 pts because that is the example that was given, so generally you can have a attack at full power plus several other spells at lower levels loaded. The real trick is that all the spells are predefined by the GM, but that is the pain in the @$$.

Leaves Trace Lim?

[John Desmarais]

Originally posted by slaughterj
Leaves Trace Lim?

Apparently he wants all magic to leave behind a residue (pixie dust?) detectable by other mages.

John Desmarais

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by John Desmarais
Apparently he wants all magic to leave behind a residue (pixie dust?) detectable by other mages.

John Desmarais

Sure, but how's that a lim? You leave tracks when you walk somewhere, etc., how's this different? Perhaps a matter of assuming spell use, once completed leaves no sign of magic having occurred (other than the whole in the corpse ;) )? Seems like it could be cool, but as a -1/2 lim (assuming), I wanted to see what all it encompassed, i.e., fade rate, range of detection, etc., to see justification for its value. I could also see GMs saying magic leaves a trace as a matter of sfx, no points given...

[BlackCobra]

Hmm, I think you may have missed two things about using the Hero system to do fantasy magic:

1. You should really decide on what kind of feel you want before worrying about the mechanics of doing it. (You may have already done that, if so, skip to point 2.) If mages require extensive knowledge of names, for instance, Incantations, KSs and books seem like obvious limits. If they require labs to develop spells or if they seek the favors of guardian spirits, you get completely different feels.

2. Look at these advantages again: Delayed Effect, Variable Special Effects, Variable Advantage. I personally really favor buying spells individually, for a variety of reasons. Mostly because it seems a more balanced way to it. The best way simulate a mage who has a lot of variability, but is focused in a particular area (like Fire), is to buy one basic power (like EB) and then give it Variable Advantage. This lets the mage produce an extremely wide range of effects with one (possibly expensive) spell. They have the ability to do things like blast one person really hard (Double Knockback, Armor Piericing), or take out a large number of targets (AoE). They can also do minor effects like light candles (AoE selective, using less power). You can also do things like Weather, Healing and all sorts of other staples of fantasy just by buying one power and having the ability to change the advantages it uses. Variable Limitations might also be handy.

If you want to add in lots of limits (to make them cost less, or more importantly to simulate the way magic works in your world), the spells simply need Delayed Effect to enter into the realm of wave-your-hand-and-die magic. In fact, Delayed Effect spells don't even need to have gestures or incantations when you use them.

[i3ullseye]

In it's simplest...

buy a multipower.

each spell must be acquired to be available.

Some spells are ultra slots, some are normal.

As the power resource grows, more powerful spells could be added to the mages spell list.

So hey could indeed use 3 ultra slots costing 1 each for basic defense, flight, etc... if each only costs 10 AP each... with only a 30 point ppol

You can also apply limitations to some slots that they require a certain pool total, even if they don't use all the pool... example might be invisibility. It may not COST a full 40 APs, but it can certainly have the limitation that the mage needs a 40 AP pool before they can acquire the 2u spell slot.

So you can let their power grow, and limit powers based on that growth to suit your tastes.

Now since the spells can only be available if acquired during the game, this prevents the mage from dropping a single point to gain 10 AP worth of power each and every game session. And also woudl prompt them to progress in other areas if you dry up the scrolls available for them to learn from.

[bjbrown]

Originally posted by Yamo
I am doing CRAZY here. I simply cannot get a Fantasy HERO game going and I'm this close to just giving up. I just can't find a satisfying way to do magic!

1. Individual spells: Too expensive. Unless I load everything down with Limitations until it's weak and buggy as hell. I don't want ANY Limitations on my magic except Gestures and Incantations. I hate mages that feel like gimps because they're loaded down with -3 (or more) worth of Limitations on every spell. Energy Blast 8d6 with a decent AoE (what I would consider a good MID-POWER spell) is still a whopping 40 points with those Limitations. Do you have any idea how long it takes a Heroic character to save up 40 points? "Sure you can have a new spell...After ten more advantures!" And if you want to blow up castles with a gesture, summon demon lords, or turn an army into toads, you're just out of luck, unless you want to play a year or so in real time just to accumulate the experience to buy a single spell.

...

If I go with a too expensive method, mages advance ridiculously slowly and are pathetic in a fight compared to their comrades (i.e. the warrior just bought All Combat CSLs with the 40 points you wasted on a AoE energy blast that won't even knock out most targets).

A too expensive method, and the opposite is true (i.e. the mage just bought four highly useful spells with the same 8 points the fighter wasted on his one puny CSL).

So, anyway, I'm this close to just saying "HERO doesn't work for fantasy. Period." and going back to D&D or something. What can I do? I just want a system where mages advance in magical power at about the same rate they do in most fantasy rpgs. Is that too much to ask? HERO does everything either ridiculously fast or glacially slow and either way there's no balance whatsoever with non-Power-heavy characters.

IS THERE NO WAY TO BALANCE MAGES!!?!?! :( :( :(

It's interesting that you equate limitations on spells with wizards being less powerful. My first Fantasy Hero game-master looked at creative application of limitations as the ultimate power-gamer number crunching.

In his game, I played the only fighter. Everyone else had a wizard, with their spells with -3 to -4 in limitations on each. Even though my fighter accumulated more experience points than most of the others over the course of playing, my tank-style fighter was by far the weakest character of the group (and there are many humorous stories that go along with that ...).

If you use Dungeons and Dragons as your baseline, almost all spells have Gestures (-¼) (somatic components), Incantations (-¼) (verbal components), OAF (-1) (material components), Charges (-0 to -2 depending on how many times per day and duration (continuing charges)), and Limited Power: Does Not Work While Wearing Armor (-¼). Then studying the spell book every night is probably another limitation.

I'm not sure what you mean by "buggy." If you mean complication, then the limitations described above aren't too complicated. The complicated limitations come from Requires Skill Roll or Activation, and Side Effects. These limitations add extra die rolls. Just ignore them if you don't like them.

If you want to go the route of truly powerful wizards, along the lines of games like Mage or Ars Magica, then do a game on a Super-Heroic level rather than a Heroic level. Going from Heroic to Super-Heroic will give your wizards a relative power gain over fighters. In a Heroic game, wizards are often paying character points for attacks and defenses (magic missile or armor spell) which your fighters get for no character points (bows and plate mail). In a Super-Heroic game, the wizards get to use the extra points for better spells, while fighters are spending some of their extra character points on their plate mail, large shields, and bastard swords.

Of course, as has been pointed out, if you make wizards more powerful as compared to other character archetypes, then everyone will want to play a wizard. All power frameworks are designed to save points for characters, and if you have some characters who can use multipowers (like wizards), and other characters without access to them (fighters), you're going to find a bias toward the wizards. I think it will be hard to balance characters with multipowers vs. characters without, but if you're successful with it, please share. You might consider letting other characters purchase powers to represent skills (like letting a fighter buy Missile Deflection to represent skill with the shield, or a rogue buying Desolidification to represent skill breaking into homes).

In the Heroic level game of which I am currently game-master, there are two dedicated wizard types of five characters. One of those wizards is a battle-mage type who is always saving the day. The other has magic that is not combat oriented. The spells usually have -2 to -4 in limitations each on them, and I don't think there are any balance problems. If anything, the wizard is slightly favored.

[Thirdbase]

Originally posted by slaughterj
Sure, but how's that a lim? You leave tracks when you walk somewhere, etc., how's this different? Perhaps a matter of assuming spell use, once completed leaves no sign of magic having occurred (other than the whole in the corpse ;) )? Seems like it could be cool, but as a -1/2 lim (assuming), I wanted to see what all it encompassed, i.e., fade rate, range of detection, etc., to see justification for its value. I could also see GMs saying magic leaves a trace as a matter of sfx, no points given...

The house rule Limitation: Leaves Trace, was not invented by me but by others I game with. The use allows a temporary trail of the magic, or whatever FX behind, to be left behind. Analysis of this trace by use of a proper detect can tell:

That magic was used.
What kind of magic was used.
How powerful the magic was.
What exact spell was used.
How long ago it was cast.
Who cast it.
Etc.

House Lim: Leaves Trace -1/2 for 5 minutes additional -1/4 to move down the time chart. +1 to per roll to detect for each 10 active points. It fades at a -1 to per roll for each time increment, until its gone.

[slaughterj]

Thanks for the Leave Trace info.

[tesuji]

My suggestion for a magic system.

*****************
MAge spells are bought as multipowers. Each multipower must take on its pool -1/2 to -1 in STYLE limitations. The Gm prepares ahead of time a series of styles, each representing a different approach to magic. In contradiction to the FAQ, variable lims are frequently used.

SKILL ROLL is an optional thing also possibly required by the GM. If he wants magic in his world to represent "spells sometimes fail for no obvious reason" then it is apropos. If he wants to emulate the vast majority of literature and media references for fantasy gaming, it is unlikely to be part of the requirement.

Spells are bought primarily as ultra slots. Its expected that a 150 mage will have a pool total of 80-120 points as a ballpark, enabling several spells.

No spell may be bought with reduced end or 0 end. All normally 0 end capabilities are automatically "cost end" if purchased as spells.

The typical spell will thus cost between 1-5 points after limitations and the slot cost are figured.

***********************

Spells do not use END, they use MANA. Thus there is no reason for a physically tougher mage with high strength and muscle mass to be able to throw more spells.

MANA is bought as an END reserve.
Recovery for the MANA is REQUIRED to be bought with at least a "recover per hour" time delay per the end reserve rules.

A typical mage can

This models a particular theory, that mana exists as trace auras throughout the world and mages act as siphons and collectors, slowly trapping mana in growing concentrations.
Areas of low to high mana can alter the recovery rate in special circumstances.

***************************

Optional Rule:

As an option the Gm can rule that spells above "half pool points" are especially difficult and list additional limitations for them. Side effects is a particularly effective choice. (This enables the Gm to allow large pools so mages can run multiple spells at once BUT not also open the door too widely for single UBERSPELLS.)

*******************************

A point on reduced slot costs: For those who think that the /10 will mean people will not take lims, since a reduction of 1-2 points on a spells cost will be trivial compared to a 4-10 point change if the spells were bought independently, consider this.

Cost is relative to gain. If the typical spell is between 1-5 points, then saving 1-2 points is significant.

If the spell is running 15-30 points, like in the buy it yourself, then 4-10 points of savings is not any more significant.

The question is not the realtive ordinal value of the savings but what it can buy you.

If i already have a lightning bolt, how much should it cost to get a firebolt? not a wole lot.

[Lucius]

Originally posted by Yamo

1. Individual spells: Too expensive. Unless I load everything down with Limitations until it's weak and buggy as hell. I don't want ANY Limitations on my magic except Gestures and Incantations. I hate mages that feel like gimps because they're loaded down with -3 (or more) worth of Limitations on every spell. Energy Blast 8d6 with a decent AoE (what I would consider a good MID-POWER spell) is still a whopping 40 points with those Limitations. Do you have any idea how long it takes a Heroic character to save up 40 points? "Sure you can have a new spell...After ten more advantures!" And if you want to blow up castles with a gesture, summon demon lords, or turn an army into toads, you're just out of luck, unless you want to play a year or so in real time just to accumulate the experience to buy a single spell.

Some observations and suggestions.

As has already been pointed out, Hero is an inherently (if imperfectly) balanced system. Game balance in D&D on the other hand is a joke. As has already been pointed out, at 1st level the mage is pathetically weak compared to the fighter, at high levels the reverse is true. I think it was you who pointed out elsewhere that a high level fighter might translate to 500 pts and an equal level mage to 1500. If this is true, the only problem is that the mage should not be thrice as costly - he should be fifty times as costly, as he's fifty times as powerful.

Okay, okay, so I exaggerate. But I hope you see the point.

Now, to deal with your perception that buying each spell one by one is too expensive.

First, the world-shaking spells probably DO have heavy limitations. Take the D&D wish for example. Aside from Extra Time (D&D spells are all bought with Extra Time, Focus- spellbook, etc, and are Delayed Effect) and Incantations, it entails aging three years and permanent loss of a point of CON. That is a serious Side Effects limitation, a Transform powerful enough to take effect automatically, with lots of overkill, because it should be basically impossible to "heal" from it. If for some reason you think a wizard should be able to resculpt continents or afflict every living Dwarf with a rash or exterminate all the cockroaches on the planet instantly, and do it any time he wants without a strain and without limitations that make the spell "buggy" then yes it's GOING to be expensive - if it's not it's NOT BALANCED.

One way to have this kind of magic and have it work is to give away lots of XP in limited ways. Say, an adventure nets the fighter a magickal Cloak of Flying or Ring of Seeing in Darkness worth X amount of points, and the mage finds a tome that gives him X amount of points to spend on spells.

Another limitation to consider is "duplicated power." I have seen this used elsewhere for powers that are easily duplicated without expending character points. Prime example, a fighter gets weapons for "free" so a wizard's attack spells get a limitation to partially compensate for the fact that he is paying for what other characters get automatically.

Also you can just plain hand out more experience points for faster growth. That means non-magi also grow powerful quickly, but then, that does mimic D&D.

Another suggestion. Consider writing up for each power you want available a "Generic Version" that includes very high levels of Variable Advantage and Variable FX and Variable Limitation. Then slap on a limitation (-2 perhaps) "Every specific manifestation requires a Familiarity with Spell Skill." Make the skill cost perhaps 1 pt per 10 pts active, possibly less if extra limitations are taken. This may make the first spell of a given type cost more, but then subsequent similar spells cost less.

Originally posted by Yamo


2. Multipower: Too cheap by far. Beginning mages end up being able to buy effective spells for ridiculous costs (like one point for an Autofire RKA).



Don't allow fixed slots. Make all slots "multi." Possibly use some of the other suggestions, such as having prerequisites, that others have put forth. Consider having a magick skill roll (think of it as a "saving throw" perhaps) and each slot requires a seperate skill - this will considerably increase the cost of each "spell slot" in a way that is related to power (bigger spells take larger minuses so the mage will buy more skill) but not too closely related (especially if you allow a five point level, possibly limited as a penalty skill level, that applies to each - then each just costs the basic 3 pts over and above the actual slot cost) It is also possible to beef up the active cost, and consequently the real cost, with appropriate advantages. Difficult to Dispel for example, or Uncontrolled Continuous for defenses.

Change the slot costs. Perhaps instead of 1/5 and 1/10
make it 1/2 and 1/4. In this case consider reducing the cost of the multipower pool itself.


QUOTE]Originally posted by Yamo


4. Variable Point Pool: Too expensive, too abusive, and too slow in play. Even if you limit it to only pre-approved spells, the "Cosmic" Advantages required to make it as useful as I'd like in combat still adds a massive +2 to the cost. How can I have a decent 100 point starting mage when basic proficiency with magic (say, a meager 20-point VPP) is going to run him 90 points? And improving it would take ages and probably just lead to the frustrated player giving up an leaving for a system where he can at gets better at magic on a regular basis.

[/QUOTE]

Too expensive?

Try allowing limitations to affect pool cost as well as control cost. Or as someone else suggested, make the pool free - it's part of the world, but you need the control cost to use it.
Given that characters get equipment free, this may not be too unreasonable. Especially if fighters have martial arts and other non mage characters have some cost efficient options.

Ignore the rule that powers in a Variable Pool are limited in active points to the pool cost. I've never paid attention to that rule. Multipowers limity by active cost; Variable Pools limit by REAL cost.

I'm not sure what you mean by needing it to be "cosmic" to be useful in combat. That's only if you want to CHANGE THE POINTS AROUND in combat. A combat-useful, combat-ready spell loses none of its utility if it happens to be in a Variable Pool, just as a gun is still a gun if it's in a Gadget Pool.

Too abusive?

Require each power a player wants to use to not only be pre-written and pre-approved, but works off a seperate Required Skill Roll. Or require a Familiarity. Especially if the pool is free, they ought to pay points here. Then you are hopefully neither "too cheap" or "too expensive" in addition to eliminating the "dial a spell" effects.

Too slow?
See above under Too abusive. Especially if you drop this idea that it has to be "cosmic." If they're not making up powers, or re arranging points, in the middle of the game, it should not slow things down.

Finally, consider using a hybrid system. I once ran a game with a spell college, but one spell was a multipower - because that was the only way I could mimic the effect I wanted. Perhaps some combination of using multipowers for some things and seperate buy for others, or variable pool and multipower, or some other combination, will get you just the kind of magick you want.

Lucius Alexander

(-: :-)

[Lucius]

I have the solution, Yamo.



All magic users start at about half the base points of other characters. So if the standard is 75, they start with 35 or 40.
Maybe use a 35 or 40 pt "perk" just to be a mage, to balance that out.

Disadvantages are the same, but the first 10 to 25 pts don't count (not sure yet where to set the number.) These first few disads wil probably be things endemic to magery anyway, like an aura detectable by other magi.

Then, mages get DOUBLE experience points.

This will help approximate the D&D style magic user, feeble at the start but progressively more and more outpowering his comrades.

If you really think that is too low for starting points, make magick a multipower.

Lucius Alexander

(-: :-)

[tiger]

Ok this something I through together. It may have some errors, I don't have FRED at work. It's a start and I might even rethink my dislike of MP for mages, although it still can make them a bit overpowering.

The character only has a few spells picked and has used up 60 pts. Still leave quite a bit for skills and different/more/stronger spells.

I would still reguire that the mage have KS of magic and still coulc use a magic roll as well.

Note:
Uses Mana is a -1/2 Limitation. It forces the spells to pull from a Mana pool only and stops spells from functioning in mana dead areas.


<font size=+1><b>Magic Test</b></font>

Player:

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right"><font size=2><b>Val  </b></font></td><td><font size=2><b>Char   </b></font></td><td><font size=2><b>Cost</b></font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>10  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>STR</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>10  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>DEX</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>10  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>CON</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>10  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>BODY</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>10  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>INT</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>10  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>EGO</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>10  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>PRE</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>10  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>COM</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2></font></td><td><font size=2> </font></td><td><font size=2></font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>2/22  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>PD</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>2/22  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>ED</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>2  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>SPD</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>4  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>REC</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>20  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>END</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>20  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>STUN</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><td><font size=2></font></td><td><font size=2> </font></td><td><font size=2></font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>6"  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>RUN</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>2"  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>SWIM</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr><tr><td align="right"><font size=2>2"  </font></td><td><font size=2><b>LEAP</b></font></td><td><font size=2>0</font></td></tr></table><b>Characteristics Cost:</b> 0

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost  </b></td><td><b>Power</b></td><td align="right"><b>END</b></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">15  </td><td><b><i>Offensive Magic: </i></b>Multipower, 35-point reserve, all slots: (35 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Requires both hands (-1/4), Uses Mana (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>1) Ego Attack 3d6 (30 Active Points) (uses Personal END) </td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>2) Energy Blast 3d6 (vs. ED), Area Of Effect (2" Radius; +1) (30 Active Points) (uses Personal END) </td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>3) Dispel 3d6, Area Of Effect (2" Radius; +1 1/2) (22 Active Points) (uses Personal END) </td><td valign="top" align="right">2</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">  </td><td> </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">13  </td><td><b><i>Defensive Powers: </i></b>Multipower, 30-point reserve, all slots: (30 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Requires both hands (-1/4), Uses Mana (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>1) Energy Damage Reduction, 50% (20 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>2) Force Field (10 PD/10 ED) (20 Active Points) (uses Personal END) </td><td valign="top" align="right">2</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>3) Armor (10 PD/10 ED) (30 Active Points) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">  </td><td> </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">15  </td><td><b><i>Magic Powers: </i></b>Multipower, 35-point reserve, all slots: (35 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Requires both hands (-1/4), Uses Mana (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>1) Teleportation 10" (x2 Increased Mass), Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4) (31 Active Points) (uses Personal END) </td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>2) Flash 2d6 (Sight Group) (10 Active Points) (uses Personal END) </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>3) Summon 15-point (x2 Number Of Beings) (8 Active Points) (uses Personal END) </td><td valign="top" align="right">1</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>4) Flight 10" (20 Active Points) (uses Personal END) </td><td valign="top" align="right">2</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">  </td><td> </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">7  </td><td><b><i>Mana Pool: </i></b>Endurance Reserve (50 END, 10 REC) Reserve: (15 Active Points); Must rest - No fighting or spellcasting (-1/4) REC: (10 Active Points); Slow Recovery (1 Hour; -2) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr></table><b>Powers Cost:</b> 60






<b>Total Character Cost:</b> 60

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Val  </b></td><td><b>Disadvantages</b></td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="right">0  </td><td>Normal Characteristic Maxima </td></tr></table>
<b>Disadvantage Points:</b> 0

<b>Base Points:</b> 75
<b>Experience Required:</b> 0
<b>Total Experience Available:</b> 0
<b>Experience Unspent:</b> 0

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Lucius

As has already been pointed out, Hero is an inherently (if imperfectly) balanced system. Game balance in D&D on the other hand is a joke.


Your bias is duly noted.

Its good to get that established right up front. :-)

Some would disagree with your relative characterizations, noting that game balance when characters have a defined progression of abilities linked by a thematic development (classes) and defined norms for off-the-books equipment as well as availability of said equipment is a lot easier than when a character has free reign to purchase anything he wants (limited by points) and where there are no standards for off-the-books equipment.

"Points" are no more "inherently" balanced than classed.

*******************

Now, of course, on top of both are the GM and his campaign guidelines and the approval process. Both systems seem to have some semblance of balance once that level of intercession is included and BOTH systems rely on that level of oversight implicitly for balance.

Matter of fact, some would say that, and this is my opinion as noted in my sig, this level of oversight is the only significant contributor to this strange and dubious thing we all like to call "game balance."

Of course, as heretical as this may sound, its conclusion is even more inescapable, if the GM is the sole significant contributor to game balance, why do all that math that HERo requires and mandates?

**************************

Of course, the good herophile will turn it around and ask, "why have classes if all the balance comes from the GM?" The answer is... balance isn't everything. The classes provide useful information to the player as to the nature and types of characters and traits existent in the world. They make wonderful "world-at-a-glance" snapshots of understanding of his character's world and experiences. heck, the DND classes are probably the single most significant element in "world underatanding" in that system.

If i say "build characters using the PHb classes 'cause thats what i am using and BTW i will not be using PrCs at all tho NPC classes from the DMG will be used." the players just got a significant info dump of "what the world is like."

Saying "build on 150, 75+75" does not do this at all.

[Markdoc]

Yamo, I think you were missing the point a bit - the balance comment was referring to mages versus other characters in DnD. At the start, the mage flings his one puny spell and then hides behind the fighters, while some levels later, when comparing notes after a fight, the fighters find they have killed 12 gnolls each and the mage about 400.

That's not a slam on DnD - most of us have played it, and I at least, still do from time to time. But the imbalance is real and it is built into the rules. A lot of "in game knowledge" is also built into the rules. Even in 3e, saying "8th level ranger" gives you a decent snapshot of the character, whereas saying "150 point character" does not.

But that's got precious little to do with game balance. TFT was even more succinct, but that didn't make it more balanced.

To reply to your earlier post, it seems like the magic system you propose should work fine, although it gives mages a hell of a lot of firepower. That's probably OK, since your comments about limitations and Cosmic power pools suggest you want powerful mages. I allow mages to use multis in my game - it balances fine because non-mages can also use multis for "cool tricks" or martial arts and because I control the limitations allowed.

Cheers, Mark

[Shadowpup]

Anybody ever considered using two of the accepted spell conventions together?

What I mean is, the initial allotment of spells be in the form of a Multipower. All spells after that are bought individually. Or you could say that if the mage has access to a full blown magical college and library he can add into the multipower. If not, then the spell is bought on its own.

Not a refined idea at all, just random thought.

[Lucius]

My "bias is duly noted."

Right. A bias based on reading the game, knowing the game, playing and running the game for years.

I guess if I observe that winter is cold in Maine, based on the three winters I spent there, my bias about Maine will be duly noted.

On the other hand, although the climate of Maine is unlikely to change, I am aware that I have never played the current edition of D&D. The one bias that SHOULD be noted is that my comments refer only to the older editions. I don't know enough about the latest version of the game to comment on it. Maybe it's totally unlike the game I knew.

And maybe Maine had a warm winter last year.

Lucius Alexander

Ask the palindromedary, it was there too.

[tesuji]

[/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Lucius

Right. A bias based on reading the game, knowing the game, playing and running the game for years.

Actually, a bias based on your own subjective definition of what entails "balance" and what causes it.
Originally posted by Lucius

I guess if I observe that winter is cold in Maine, based on the three winters I spent there, my bias about Maine will be duly noted.

Well, I am perhaps unbaised enough to know the difference between a subjective definition such as "what is game balance" and an objective observation such as "what temperature does the thermometer read?"

Until you can recognize even the slightest difference between the two things you are trying to compare, we probably have little hope in meaningful communication.

Aside from the various units issues (degrees f, degrees C or in wierd situations degres K) a temperature reading is an objective thing. Game balance is not.

Now, there would be the argument that what constitutes "cold" weather for some might not be considered "cold" weather for others, However i doubt anyone would classify Maine as anything but cold in the wintertime.
Originally posted by Lucius

On the other hand, although the climate of Maine is unlikely to change, I am aware that I have never played the current edition of D&D. The one bias that SHOULD be noted is that my comments refer only to the older editions.

Ok, then I may be confused. Did you say balance in DND "is" a joke or "was" a joke?

If someone wrote a post complaining about balance issues and rules conflicts in HERO system or Champions and left out that they were talking about 3rd edition would you consider it a reasonable complaint or criticism? Should we populate these threads with discussions of 20 year old rules that have long since been changed?
Originally posted by Lucius

I don't know enough about the latest version of the game to comment on it. Maybe it's totally unlike the game I knew.

So, lets talk about ECs in second edition and how they worked?
Originally posted by Lucius

And maybe Maine had a warm winter last year.

Again, if you consider game balance to be as objective a thing as a temperature measurement, then I doubt there is much more going to come of this.

As i stated earlier, game balance is derived IMO from the choices made by the Gmas to what challenges he presents his players and their characters. Barring the grossest of mismatches (character A has exactly everything B has and also has these extra things) there wont be any objective imbalances. I will also point out that those grossest of imbalances (A has exactly everything B has and then some) are MORE likely to appear in a points system (Player A and B build silimar characters but B is far more experienced than a at milking the system) and typically wont occur in a classed system where the gaining of abilities is scheduled and is irregardless of "minmaxing aptitude."

Or in other words...

If two players sit down in DND to generate "10th level fighters" then even when one is far more skilled than the other and more knowledgable about using the system, they will end up with trade offs that compensate to some degree at least.

If two players sit down to generate two FH fighters and when one is far more skilled and experienced at milking the system it is entirely possible for one to end up clearly superior with no relevent compensations. Heck, finessing the rounding rules alone could produce it.

[Shadowpup]

I think skill should count for more during character creation than luck.

[tesuji]

While I am not a fan of luck having a major role, which is why i love that modern DND has chargen systems officially available which have no luck involved (point buy) and i use them, I think luck would be preferable in moderation to a heavy swing towards skill.

In my ideal whimsical myth of a game, neither would play a significant role. A newbie player would have every bit as much a chance to generate a character just as efficiently as a veteran would. The "system" would not get in the way. The "system" would not favor 14 over 13 oir vice versa and would make either worth what you paid and nothing more.

Unfortunately, that system does not exist yet.

One of the things i use in judging the merits of s system is its learning curve and i gauges it in terms of both... ready for this... frequency and severity.

FREQUENCY: How long is it going to be that a newbie player needs to ask advice when creating characters? How long before they will feel comfortable? How long before they are veterans?

HERO has a high frequency, it will last for a long time, maybe forever, to get the hang of it. DND has a much lower frequency. After 1-2 characters or even 1 character for a while, the hang of the system is grasped. One of the reasons this is true is the classed system gives you delineated examples.

SEVERITY: How gross a difference will there be between a veteran built character and a rank newbie? How severe will the power level or efficiency difference be Iseen in play?

HERO has again a high severity. THe differences will be drastic, evidenced in play and just very difficult to ignore. DND with core classes, is not too bad. DND with all the various and sundried PRCs and splatbook feats and splatbook spells... is more like HERO. I dont see it as quite there, but it may well be close to as severe as hero.

[Old Man]

Assuming two players with equal rules skill, their characters will come out reasonably balanced. FH does favor the brick somewhat in the way that Champions does, but by and large you don't see the wild power variation between wizards and warriors the way you do in certain other systems.

[tesuji]

I ran three different Fh campaigns and played in two. None had the same magic system. in each the "balances" between "classes" varied a great deal.

Given the relative absence of a formal system for creating wizards and warriors, with even the new FH not going to include an official magic system, this seems hard to justify.

I would agree completely that a GM can create a magic system and limit his players choices to achieve different balance results between "classes." in FH.

Then again, they can do the same thing in "certain other systems" where even with classes modifying classes is not only endorsed but encouraged, albeit recommend in moderation.

Regardless, balance is only relevent when gauged against the challenges presented by the GM. its the needs and necessities of the scenario, adventure and campaign that determines the "power" of any individual character and the "weakness" of any other, barring the grossest of abberations.

The grossest of abberations wont appear in a classed system as often as they will in a pointed one, particular a pointed one with a high learning curve.

Originally posted by Old Man
Assuming two players with equal rules skill, their characters will come out reasonably balanced. FH does favor the brick somewhat in the way that Champions does, but by and large you don't see the wild power variation between wizards and warriors the way you do in certain other systems.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by tesuji
I ran three different Fh campaigns and played in two. None had the same magic system. in each the "balances" between "classes" varied a great deal.

Given the relative absence of a formal system for creating wizards and warriors, with even the new FH not going to include an official magic system, this seems hard to justify.


The formal system presented in 4th ed. FH balanced just fine at practically any power level. The college system was clunky, but it worked. Of course many GMs like to tinker with the magic system in FH, so of course you'll get different balances depending on how you tweak it.

[Lord Liaden]

I'm anticipating that the new Fantasy HERO will include a lot of suggestions on how to balance spell systems, and the effect of certain choices on the effectiveness of spell casters relative to other types of characters, particularly Power Frameworks. Spellcasting abilities are one of the elements that can give one character a big edge over others if not handled right.

Old Man, you and I may be in the minority in approving of the old FH spell colleges. The type and amount of Limitations built into those spells made them very useful to characters as individual buys, without outpowering them relative to weapon or stealth specialists. And I for one thought that the sfx of the individual Colleges added a lot of unique flavor to them. I could never understand the protests of some people that all colleges were the same because they all had a damage spell, a Detect, a Dispel and a Force Field. There's a real difference between a FF defined as a flock of birds that surround you to block attacks, and a FF defined as turning your skin into reptile scales (both of which are in the book).

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

And I for one thought that the sfx of the individual Colleges added a lot of unique flavor to them. I could never understand the protests of some people that all colleges were the same because they all had a damage spell, a Detect, a Dispel and a Force Field. There's a real difference between a FF defined as a flock of birds that surround you to block attacks, and a FF defined as turning your skin into reptile scales (both of which are in the book).

Interesting i thought that was one of the worst sins of the Fh presentation. I had hoped for the spell colege SFX thing to actually provide meaningful differences, rather than just cosmetic flavor wrapped around the same game mechanics necessities... 'everyone needs a force field/armor so regarldess of FX we will give everyone one..."

See, instead of a fire force field, i would rather see fire mages using a fireshield... when those approaching to hit you get burned and where arrows and the like get burned upo on approach. Instead we get yet another "wall of defense" force field.

The most egregious to me was the one you mention... the "animal lover" college whose basic defensive spells causes local animals to throw themselves in, taking the shots for the mage... again represented by the oh so points efficient force field.

to each his own of course.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
I could never understand the protests of some people that all colleges were the same because they all had a damage spell, a Detect, a Dispel and a Force Field. There's a real difference between a FF defined as a flock of birds that surround you to block attacks, and a FF defined as turning your skin into reptile scales (both of which are in the book).

Mechanics wise there really isn't any difference, so from a straight mechanics standpoint there isn't really any reason to choose one over the other. And some (I'd say most) people don't like that. It bothered me, but not a huge amount.

My big problem with colleges was in the way the "Must have X points in college" Limitation was used. For instance, most of the colleges had that for all of their spells, all at the same level. So you couldn't have, for instance, an apprentice necromancer, because all spells required 30 points in the college. (Actually, you could, but you just couldn't cast any of them until you had 30 points worth.) The way it should have been done was to make a few basic or apprentice level spells for each college without the limitation, make a bunch of journeyman level spells that required 10 points, make a bunch of craftsman level spells that required 20 points, a bunch of master level spells that required 30 points, and a bunch of archmage level spells that required 40 points. Optionally, include points spent in a KS or SS of the college's magic type as part of those base points.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Old Man, you and I may be in the minority in approving of the old FH spell colleges. The type and amount of Limitations built into those spells made them very useful to characters as individual buys, without outpowering them relative to weapon or stealth specialists. And I for one thought that the sfx of the individual Colleges added a lot of unique flavor to them. I could never understand the protests of some people that all colleges were the same because they all had a damage spell, a Detect, a Dispel and a Force Field. There's a real difference between a FF defined as a flock of birds that surround you to block attacks, and a FF defined as turning your skin into reptile scales (both of which are in the book).

Well, I didn't like the way the old spell colleges were executed. I really do not think that every college should be entitled to a Force Field and an RKA. That 'requirement' resulted in some spell concepts that were really reaching. The "life bolt" out of the Body Mastery college was one. The example you list, the Flock Of Birds Force Field, was another. So was the Solid Flames Force Field.

What does work is the limitation concept wherein the char gets an extra limitation on her spells whose value increases with the points spent on spells. That helps to level the field for Real Mages as compared to warrior wizards or one spell wonders. The thing is that you have to allow the value of the limitation to remain constant across all the spells bought by a given character, rather than fixing the limitation for a given spell. I think this is how the college spell lists were meant to be used--they just had to put in some value for the published spell listing, otherwise they c