If Champions didn't exist...

[nexus]

What Superhero RPG would be your fave?

[Theron]

Probably Marvel Super Heroes (the FASERIP version). Or V&V. It was my favorite before Champions came along (not that we had a lot of choices back then, it was basically V&V, Superhero 2044, and the modified version of Gamma World I invented in high school).

[Champsguy]

DC Heroes. It's the closest to Champions, and actually has some advantages over it.

[Tim]

Either Marvel or SAS

[Kristopher]

I've never really come across a superhero RPG system I liked, except for Champions/HERO. All the others seem to have a set of assumptions about the setting and tone, and try too hard to encode a certain "genre feel" into the rules. You either play with their assumptions, or start editing the rules.

[nexus]

Either Marvel or SAS

Tri Stat or D20 SAS?

[Mentor]

None.

I was burned out on D&D when Hero first came out and our GMs were experimenting with various homegrown character generation and combat systems and tables. None really worked in detail as well as Hero.

[Tim]

Tri Stat or D20 SAS?


Tri stat

[proditor]

I guess V&V or MSH. Possibly DC Heroes, but the other two had a shallower learning curve for newbies.

[Hypnotoad, the]

Well, from my limited exposure way back when, if I hadn't picked up Champions, I'd have picked up MSH or (please don't lynch me) Heroes Unlimited.

Back at the shop where I used to live, Heroes Unlimited had a more prominent place on the shelf than V & V, so naturally it stood out.

[Hermit]

Ye olde Advanced Marvel Super heroes with a few rules stolen from V&V.

Thank Goodness for Champs though. Whew :)

[Magmarock]

I don't know... GURPS seems to be stealing, erm, I mean seems awful close to the Hero System rules.


Mags

[WhammeWhamme]

...I wouldn't be playing a supers roleplaying game.

I probably wouldn't be a roleplayer at all. Well... okay, I might be playing something 'else'. Dragon Warriors maybe...

Now, if 5th had merely never come out... no change.

[casualplayer]

Superworld had this stat called SIZE that made Growth and Shrinking a breeze. I vote for Superworld.

[CrosshairCollie]

Hard to tell at this point ... the best bet would probably be the Marvel Super Heroes Adventure Game (with the Fate deck). I had some good fun running that, though I usually need to make up my own villains. :)

[Rapier]

I was hardcore Fantasy before Champions. I REALLY had problems with the D&D system, but hadn't found another game that I liked enough (and had enough support/products to make it worth while). If Champions wasn't around I would still probably be playing D&D (egads) or some other fantasy system.

[transmetahuman]

What Superhero RPG would be your fave?

Same as I use now: GURPS. Of course, if Champions didn't exist then GURPS probably wouldn't be recognizable. They do owe (and acknowledge) a big debt to HERO.

[assault]

I would have to go with Superworld. I bought a copy of the Worlds of Wonder version when it came out, so it was available. Its system was nice, clean and simple, so I might have actually been willing to play it.

Of course, Superworld itself owes a bit of a debt to Champions, but it's still quite likely that Chaosium would have published a superhero RPG even without the success of Champions.

Hmm... roads less travelled...

[Magmarock]

Same as I use now: GURPS. Of course, if Champions didn't exist then GURPS probably wouldn't be recognizable. They do owe (and acknowledge) a big debt to HERO.

Yuppers. With each new edition, GURPS is looking closer and closer to the Hero System Rules. I wouldn't be surprised if DOJ filed a lawsuit in the near future.


Mags

[OddHat]

Yuppers. With each new edition, GURPS is looking closer and closer to the Hero System Rules. I wouldn't be surprised if DOJ filed a lawsuit in the near future.


Mags

The two games evolved from the same sources, and are now trying to do the sme basic things. No one involved has much money. A lawsuit will happen two days after never. ;)

[OddHat]

Nightlife, Ace! Agents, and Super-Ace! Agents, all by Stellar Games. Comedy Horror and Super Hero Games that owed more to D&D than Champions. Maybe GURPS, if it had evolved at all. I like Tri-Stat and Aberrant, but I doubt either could have existed without Champions (Steve Long even worked on Aberrant).

[Doc Democracy]

I'd be using Issaries HeroQuest system to run supers.

[Mutant for Hire]

Mutants and Mastermind impresses me, though I think I'd wait for second or preferably third edition while they work out the bugs in the system. I'm also curious as to GURPS Fourth Edition. From existing systems, the old Marvel Superheroes is very tempting. A nice and simple system.

[GestaltBennie]

I'd probably be playing Superworld, though I might have switched to M&M when it came out.

[TheEmerged]

Without Champions, I probably wouldn't have returned to RPG's during the late 80's -- or I'd have continued concentrating on wargames like Battletech.

In terms of what other systems I've used and liked, the old DC system (the 9-stat one) had its charms, as did the original Marvel system (AKA "FASERIP"). The later Marvel System ("MSHAG", or the one with the cards) had potential but needed a lot of work to be truly playable... There are aspects of Aberrant and "Brave New World" I liked, but in both cases there were critical flaws that kept me from actually running them...

[Just A Guy Name]

I'd be using SAS Tri-Stat (already do, for my own games :o ).

GURPS4E could be used as is for running a supers game, but I'm waiting for Powers to come out to see how Sean is polishing the system for that genre.

[Metaphysician]

Going strictly by system, Tri-Stat SAS.

Taking setting into account, M&M, due to Freedom City.

[gewing]

Probably a house rule modified V&V. I still like their str/con/mass affect lifting capacity, lifting capacity determines hand to hand damage better than anything else I have seen, I think.




What Superhero RPG would be your fave?

[Supreme Serpent]

FASERIP Marvel Supers. With Marvel and Champions available, I haven't felt a need to really look deeply at SAS or M&M or any of the other post-80's products.

[Dynamo]

GURPS4E could be used as is for running a supers game, but I'm waiting for Powers to come out to see how Sean is polishing the system for that genre.Per Sean Punch, GURPS Powers will not be the Supers genre book for GURPS 4e. It's slated as a crunch book in the spirit of G:Vehicles or G:Ultra Tech. Word on the net is that a G:Supers for 4e has been pitched that will "fix all the problems with the previous editions" and "blow Hero/Champions away." I'll believe it when I see it.

As much as I like GURPS for most genres, G:Supers has consistently disappointed me. If Champions didn't exist, I would be playing SAS for my superhero fix. It's one of two supers games I've played and really enjoyed system-wise* besides Champions. The other is Aberrant. I just picked up a copy of M&M, and it looks promising, but I've yet to take it for a test drive.


* Had a great time playing V&V, but that was the GM and other players. The game itself is a non-system of poorly designed, arbitrary rules. This same GM ran a game on a 4-day road trip with no dice, paper, or rules, and the whole van-full of us had a fabulous time. Pure talent.

[Kristopher]

:lol: Based on past GURPS material that I've read, my expectation is that whatever book ends up being 4e supers won't be able to blow away a paper sailboat on a goldfish pond.

[nexus]

The thing about GURPS Supers (or at least what I feel is an issue) is that it gives the impression that the writer, the line developer or someone involved in the creation process doesn't like the idea of supers/comic worlds. Or maybe just the assumption you have to use to make the genre work. That was just my impression.

I'm a little leery that its going to take an entire book just to lay out the rules for designing powers and that its not a campaign/genre book as well. That seems to indicate more complexity than even as Hero fan might like. :)

that or a really long shopping list of premade abilities. Either way I get the feeling we can expect to be treated to several long flame war threads on places like rpg.net (and even here) about how Champions and Hero are obsolete and outdone approximately two days after the book is released. :)

[OddHat]

On the flip side, I ran a GURPS Supers campaign on and off for years. For Iron Age Supers gaming, GURPS had its good points. The worst problem was the ease with which characters could be disabled or killed. Super Brawls required extensive house rules to keep the team alive (I required almost every Super to have Regeneration, Regrowth and a high HT score, and used STR rather than HT for hit points). In the end I came back to Champions when I wanted to go for a more Silver/Bronze feel in my games, and because the Supers genre was under-suported by GURPS.

[Haerandir]

Good Guys Finish Last, out of Space Gamer/Fantasy Gamer #3 (I think). Sadly, my copy of that magazine disappeared about 10 years ago, and I haven't been able to get my hands on a new copy of it. So, I'd be forced to fall back on my backup choice, the old reliable: Marvel Super Heroes (TSR second edition).

[nexus]

On the flip side, I ran a GURPS Supers campaign on and off for years. For Iron Age Supers gaming, GURPS had its good points. The worst problem was the ease with which characters could be disabled or killed. Super Brawls required extensive house rules to keep the team alive (I required almost every Super to have Regeneration, Regrowth and a high HT score, and used STR rather than HT for hit points). In the end I came back to Champions when I wanted to go for a more Silver/Bronze feel in my games, and because the Supers genre was under-suported by GURPS.

I'll agree. One of the features with GURPS is that the closer you stick to realism, the better it performs as a simulator. Now I've heard fourth edition goes a bit more for the cinematic. Unfortunately, I don't have the funds to look into it at the moment unless someone is willing to pay my third edition books. :/

[Doug McCrae]

I'm running a Silver Age Sentinels game at the moment. If SAS didn't exist I'd probably use DC Heroes or Champions. For a game set in the Marvel universe I might use the Marvel SAGA system - the one with the cards. At some point I'd like to give Mutants & Masterminds a try as I hear it's pretty good.

[Vondy]

I'd just hang up my cape and move to another genre. Actually, at this point, I'm so sick of supers that I probably won't run champions again. A thirteen year mega campaign with sessions almost every week is enough to kill anyone's desire to see anyone it tights ever again. I've moved back to genres I haven't touched in over a decade, and I'm loving it. Hero is my lingua franca, but harnmaster and the dream pod 9 system make me happy, too.

[Fry Daddy]

I would no longer play supers and would probably go to Call of Cthulhu.

[Tim]

All these folks who said they wuold be playing SAS instead, (me included).

The SAS crew has given credit to Champions as one of their major influences. When I frequented their msg board, They had no problem when Hero was mentioned, and if anyone bad mouthed it, defended it.

[JmOz]

Probably the old DC Heroes 2 edition (The 3x3 stats one)

[nexus]

All these folks who said they wuold be playing SAS instead, (me included).

The SAS crew has given credit to Champions as one of their major influences. When I frequented their msg board, They had no problem when Hero was mentioned, and if anyone bad mouthed it, defended it.

Its a shame the fans can't get along as well as the people who have a real financial interest in how the games do in the market.

[Rapier]

I'd just hang up my cape and move to another genre. Actually, at this point, I'm so sick of supers that I probably won't run champions again. A thirteen year mega campaign with sessions almost every week is enough to kill anyone's desire to see anyone it tights ever again. I've moved back to genres I haven't touched in over a decade, and I'm loving it. Hero is my lingua franca, but harnmaster and the dream pod 9 system make me happy, too.
I'm kind of in the same boat. My group was more than happy to keep playing supers but I was gettin sick of it. Right now we're doing straight heroic and have a blast.

[Blue Jogger]

If Champions didn't exist, I would have had to try and build my own Superhero system. Of course, it would probably be really complicated and no one would want to play it, pretty much like Champions was before the BBB and FRED, only much much worse. :winkgrin:

"Your superpowers not only break the laws of thermadynamics, you implode and collapse into a black hole, completely destroying this dimension and the adjacent ones."
"...."
"Hey, you wanted a cosmically powerful being."

[gewing]

There were only a few things I liked "better" about gurps.

I liked the way damage scaled with strength. It always seemed to me that if someone who was super strong used an axe or sword, the damage would be... vicious. assuming the weapon survived. Thinking about it in retrospect, maybe Gurps went TOO far in trying to avoid damage compression. ?

I liked the way Gurps treated the difference between RACIAL features and personal features. If your entire RACE is twice as strong as a normal human, it is cheaper than if YOU are twice as strong as your race.

I liked their treatment of Encumbrance at the time.






I'll agree. One of the features with GURPS is that the closer you stick to realism, the better it performs as a simulator. Now I've heard fourth edition goes a bit more for the cinematic. Unfortunately, I don't have the funds to look into it at the moment unless someone is willing to pay my third edition books. :/

[Enforcer84]

Let's see, I've had almost all of them...
V&V
MEGs
TSR's Marvel (Original, advanced) FASERIP
Mutants & Masterminds
Heroes Unlimited
Silver Age Sentinals
SAS D20
Champions: New Mellinnium
Marvel II (the 4 stat one)
Aberrant

In that order.
Though V&V and MEGs are pretty close to a tie. HU wins out in a nostalgia fest. plus I have about 7 supplements for it so I have more to work with.

I've looked at but never really read:
Enforcers - ugh
Superworld - almost bought that but they had Champions at the store at the time

[OddHat]

Let's see, I've had almost all of them...
V&V
MEGs
TSR's Marvel (Original, advanced) FASERIP
Mutants & Masterminds
Heroes Unlimited
Silver Age Sentinals
SAS D20
Champions: New Mellinnium
Marvel II (the 4 stat one)
Aberrant

In that order.
Though V&V and MEGs are pretty close to a tie. HU wins out in a nostalgia fest. plus I have about 7 supplements for it so I have more to work with.

I've looked at but never really read:
Enforcers - ugh
Superworld - almost bought that but they had Champions at the store at the time

Ever try FemForce? It wasn't that bad for the time.

No, really. :)

[Argus]

I don't know... GURPS seems to be stealing, erm, I mean seems awful close to the Hero System rules.


Mags

They are two Branches of the same tree.

GURPS would be the game I would play if there were no Hero System.

A.

[Enforcer84]

Ever try FemForce? It wasn't that bad for the time.

No, really. :)
Couldn't find it.
Nor could I ever get a hold of Golden Heroes.

[nexus]

There were only a few things I liked "better" about gurps.

I liked the way damage scaled with strength. It always seemed to me that if someone who was super strong used an axe or sword, the damage would be... vicious. assuming the weapon survived. Thinking about it in retrospect, maybe Gurps went TOO far in trying to avoid damage compression. ?
.

I have to admit I do like that better than Hero's damage cap on that sort of thing. Its makes certain concepts a bit easier to build.

[assault]

Nor could I ever get a hold of Golden Heroes.

There's actually a new version/edition of Golden Heroes in playtest at the moment. The name has been changed to Squadron UK.

The playtest is going on through the Golden Heroes Yahoo Group.

What's really interesting about it, though, is that the group's file section contains a whole bunch of old articles and scenarios from White Dwarf magazine. At least some of these scenarios are dual-statted for Champions as well as GH.

You have to join the group to get access to them, though.

GH has some interesting mechanisms, which could be borrowed for house rules. Otherwise it's pretty average.

The fact that it was a British game is interesting, but there was never a really adequately developed setting for it. :(

Oh yeah. That reminds me: there was an Australian produced SH RPG called Super Squadron. It was rather similar to V&V in many ways, since they both were influenced by D&D. It wasn't able to break into the US market. That's no great loss, since it didn't really do anything that other games didn't do better, but does indicate the problems faced by wouldbe Australian game designers.

I've lifted a few ideas from it for my Champions games. These are mostly related to a statistical breakdown of origin types. Of course, I ignore such matters whenever I design a game that is actually intended to be run. :(

[Kirby]

What Superhero RPG would be your fave?
Probably DC. I had already purchased the DC boxed set along with a module or two, though I had never played it. That would be my *favorite* simply because DC is my favorite. I don't really think I'd play a superhero RPG, considering that the group I got with didn't play any others, though the closest may be Rifts or Palladium (probably Rifts), though I really wouldn't have considered myself a superhero; it's all about the genre.

[Red Knight]

If Champions wasn't around, I would probably either be playing DC Universe (the WEG relaunch of the DC RPG) or I would try to play M&M.

I bought M&M when it first came out and it looked really cool. I quickly sat down and started to read the rules and slammed right into a huge issue for me. The powers. The way that you assign and buy powers is (IMHO) wierd. For a character with only a few powers it is not bad. A Superman type is easy... but if you ry to make a Iron Man: War Machine type (where there are multiple weapons) it becomes messy. From the jist I get... You by an "Attack Power" at a set level... (OK.. straight forwards so far). Now... let us assume that the attack is an energy beam.. If you want to add another type of an attack.. like a flamethrower.. Instead of buying another Attack Power, you just add limiters or bonuses to the initial power. SO you would have an Attack Power with a myriad of modifiers to represent all your different attacks. This never sat right with me and I have looked at the book numerous times trying to wrap my mind around it. Even my friends have sat down with me to work it out. None of us like the powers system. The D20 rules we know from playing D&D and Star Wars.... but the Powers leave a lot to be desired.

<steps off of soap box> OK... sorry about that.

[bblackmoor]

What Superhero RPG would be your fave?

I'd probably be using Risus or the Marvel card-based game.

[Kirby]

I'd probably be using Risus or the Marvel card-based game.
Must...resist...card...games.... :angst:

So, um, what's Risus?

[bblackmoor]

So, um, what's Risus?

A free (but not Open) game by S. John Ross. Great for quick pick up games. I even ran a fairly long fantasy campaign using it, several years and a few game groups ago.

http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm

[Rapier]

PONG. I'd be playing PONG!

Or maybe Parchisi (sp?).

Go Fish?

WAR!

Operation?

CandyLand?

[st barbara]

To "Assault" I have a copy of "Super Squadron" somewhere around the place. I never played it however as I disliked the random method of assigning powers. The only "Super" games that I have played are "Champions" (albeit a weird muto version), "Superhero 44", and "Brave New World". Actually I refereed "Superhero 44" and have only played a couple of games of "BNW". I may redo "BNW" in the new year with a new character.

[egyptian]

Marvel Super Heroes. It did in a rules light way what HERO does in a detailed fashion. I still feel quite fond of the ol' girl and I certainly can't see myself getting rid of my books anytime soon :)

[megaplayboy]

I'd probably lean towards MSH/Advanced, DC Heroes/1st or 2nd Ed., or maybe Tri-Stat. Underground was a "superpunk" game that intrigued me.

It's interesting no one's mentioned Aberrant ;)

[rjcurrie]

I think that Champions has had such a major impact on the design of so many games in the genre that if it had never existed, who knows what route superhero game design might have taken? Would someone else have come up with the idea of having "Advantages" and "Limitations" to Powers? Or what about "Disadvantages"? I believe both of these were either invented (in the case of "Advantages" and "Limitiations") or significantly refined (in the case of "Disadvantages") by Champions. If no one else came up with these ideas, I suspect the whole field would look considerably different, so it's impossible to say what superhero game I would be playing -- if I was role-playing at all.

[bblackmoor]

It's interesting no one's mentioned Aberrant ;)

Tried it. Hated it. Aberrant could be made into a decent, or even very good, game, but it would take more work than I would be willing to invest. I think I may still have some of my notes that were aimed in that direction, though (the group I was playing with at the time really wanted to play it).

Ah, I found it. This is just a few notes: I got this far and quit, basically. But it will give you an idea where I was heading with it. My game group disagreed, and we parted company. I wound up playing D&D for a while after that with another group. Anyway, here are the notes, such as they are:



Sterility & Fertility, pg. 77
Some Novas are sterile, or have DNA so different from baseline humans that they are no longer interfertile. Conversely, some Novas are (as one might reasonably expect) superfertile, with multiple-birth pregnancies resulting from even the briefest intimate contact. Most Novas, however, are merely as fertile as an exceptionally healthy baseline human.

Character Creation Table, pg. 120
see 155: Attributes vs. Mega-Attribrutes

Eufiber, pg. 141
Yech. Replace w/ "Smart Matter", polymer goo infused with nanomachine colonies. Each dot provides 1 dot Soak (no Quantum Point expenditure needed). Smart matter has all of the adaptive and cosmetic properties attributed to Eufiber.

Node, pg. 143
Yech. Replace w/ "Coherence", an term referring to the efficiency of a Nova's powers. A character may expend a number of Quantum Points per Turn equal to:
(Coherence + 3) * 2

Co......QP/Turn
0.......6
1.......8
2.......10
3.......12
4.......14
5.......16

Quantum, pg. 146
"Quantum", like "Coherence" and "Willpower", is an abstraction. "Quantum" is a term referring to a Nova's level of raw power. "Tesla Index" is a different but closely related term.

Regaining Quantum Pool, pg. 147
End of scene: regain all spent quantum points.
Rest for a Turn (take no actions, use no powers), recover:
(Coherence + 3)

Co......QP/Turn
0.......3
1.......4
2.......5
3.......6
4.......7
5.......8

Mega-Attributes, pg. 155
This Attribute vs. Mega-Attribute system is just a mess. Eliminate "Mega-Attributes" as a separate power. Instead, simply count any dots above 5 as "Mega", providing 3 dice on Attribute rolls. Successes are determined normally. A character may use a dot to reduce difficulty instead, as normal. Buying an Attribute up to 5 costs 1 Nova point per 3 dots. Buying an Attribute greater than 5 costs 3 Nova for 1 dot.

Att.....dice
1.......1
2.......2
3.......3
4.......4
5.......5
6.......8
7.......11
8.......14
9.......17
10,,,,,,20

Mega-Strength, pg. 156
No need to treat Strength differently from other Attributes.

Extras, pg. 179
A power may be bought with up to two Extras.

Quantum Point cost, pg. 179
QP cost to activate a power for a scene = the level of the power. In the case of powers with multiple applications, the quantum point cost for each additional technique used during a scene is 1 QP.

Quantum Regeneration, pg. 219
Level: 2
Quantum Minimum: 3
Effect: Spend one Willpower to completely replenish the character's Quantum Pool during a Turn of complete rest.


It hasn't been playtested, nor is it complete, but that's where I would start if I actually wanted to play Aberrant.

[JMcL63]

...someone would've had to have invented it. ;)

[nexus]

Tried it. Hated it. Aberrant could be made into a decent, or even very good, game, but it would take more work than I would be willing to invest. I think I may still have some of my notes that were aimed in that direction, though (the group I was playing with at the time really wanted to play it).

Ah, I found it. This is just a few notes: I got this far and quit, basically. But it will give you an idea where I was heading with it. My game group disagreed, and we parted company. I wound up playing D&D for a while after that with another group. Anyway, here are the notes, such as they are:



Sterility & Fertility, pg. 77
Some Novas are sterile, or have DNA so different from baseline humans that they are no longer interfertile. Conversely, some Novas are (as one might reasonably expect) superfertile, with multiple-birth pregnancies resulting from even the briefest intimate contact. Most Novas, however, are merely as fertile as an exceptionally healthy baseline human.

Character Creation Table, pg. 120
see 155: Attributes vs. Mega-Attribrutes

Eufiber, pg. 141
Yech. Replace w/ "Smart Matter", polymer goo infused with nanomachine colonies. Each dot provides 1 dot Soak (no Quantum Point expenditure needed). Smart matter has all of the adaptive and cosmetic properties attributed to Eufiber.

Node, pg. 143
Yech. Replace w/ "Coherence", an term referring to the efficiency of a Nova's powers. A character may expend a number of Quantum Points per Turn equal to:
(Coherence + 3) * 2

Co......QP/Turn
0.......6
1.......8
2.......10
3.......12
4.......14
5.......16

Quantum, pg. 146
"Quantum", like "Coherence" and "Willpower", is an abstraction. "Quantum" is a term referring to a Nova's level of raw power. "Tesla Index" is a different but closely related term.

Regaining Quantum Pool, pg. 147
End of scene: regain all spent quantum points.
Rest for a Turn (take no actions, use no powers), recover:
(Coherence + 3)

Co......QP/Turn
0.......3
1.......4
2.......5
3.......6
4.......7
5.......8

Mega-Attributes, pg. 155
This Attribute vs. Mega-Attribute system is just a mess. Eliminate "Mega-Attributes" as a separate power. Instead, simply count any dots above 5 as "Mega", providing 3 dice on Attribute rolls. Successes are determined normally. A character may use a dot to reduce difficulty instead, as normal. Buying an Attribute up to 5 costs 1 Nova point per 3 dots. Buying an Attribute greater than 5 costs 3 Nova for 1 dot.

Att.....dice
1.......1
2.......2
3.......3
4.......4
5.......5
6.......8
7.......11
8.......14
9.......17
10,,,,,,20

Mega-Strength, pg. 156
No need to treat Strength differently from other Attributes.

Extras, pg. 179
A power may be bought with up to two Extras.

Quantum Point cost, pg. 179
QP cost to activate a power for a scene = the level of the power. In the case of powers with multiple applications, the quantum point cost for each additional technique used during a scene is 1 QP.

Quantum Regeneration, pg. 219
Level: 2
Quantum Minimum: 3
Effect: Spend one Willpower to completely replenish the character's Quantum Pool during a Turn of complete rest.


It hasn't been playtested, nor is it complete, but that's where I would start if I actually wanted to play Aberrant.

I played (and play) Aberrant. In general, I enjoy it. The system is workable (Loaded with setting baggage though) there was aspects of the setting and feel I didn't care for. In some ways its pure "Rusty Iron" Age in that feels like it was created by people at didn't want to look closely at the superheroic genre and creatively deconstruct it but instead hated the genre and wanted to mock and satirize it. "White Wolfism" started creeping in and more and more over time until the game felt more like Vampire with colorful costumes. And there was Pet NPCs problem, metaplot on rails, etc.

[Dr. Evil]

If Champions didn't exist I'd have to say I'd be playing MSH or DC Heroes. I had a good campaign with Marvel, and I like the superheroic mechanics of DC.

[JMcL63]

"White Wolfism"I've long had another term for this, but "White Wolfism" is as good a phrase as any for pretty much everything that I most dislike in today's roleplaying so as to deserve rep! ;)

[Kristopher]

I've long had another term for this, but "White Wolfism" is as good a phrase as any for pretty much everything that I most dislike in today's roleplaying so as to deserve rep! ;)


Care to elaborate?

[Kirby]

I thought up another game I played way back in high school called Villains and Vigilantes.

I don't remember too much about it (other than you could create a variety of characters), but my character was an android (I don't think any character knew) and one of my best buds was playing a huge Sumo wrestler who happened to be the fastest guy on the team. I recall my character was good at defeating the 'normals' so-to-speak and very accurate. We did split our party often (there were eight of us, so it wasn't that big of a deal) and one of the groups was attacked by an ubervillain. Our group tried to come to the rescue, but the super-Sumo got there first. On his first round, the Sumo got thrown through a fortress wall. He got back off, dusted himself off and used his full speed to ram the villain. It knocked the building down and ended the reign of the villain. When the three in my group arrived, we saw the Sumo dusting himself off and the other four-team group patting the Sumo on the back.

[Solomon]

I woudn't be playing supers regularly. I'd probably play short scenarios of V&V, Tri-stat SAS (assuming it would exist without Champions) and/or MSH, but no campaigns.

[Xiawarr]

Superworld...definitely. My early gaming group evolved out of a love for Runequest and COC. Superworld seemed like the obvious choice. I owned both 1st Edition and 2nd Edition Champs, but really did make full use of it until 4th Edition (Big Blue Book). That was when I fully converted to HERO goodness.

[Derek Hiemforth]

DC Heroes/Blood of Heroes/MEGS. No question. :)

[Redmenace]

I'd be playing DC Heroes/Megs. It scaled power level so well and there were a hell of a lot of sourcebooks. Still, I'm glad I have Hero.

[memorax300]

Pulsar Games has new owners and some interesting plans for next year so MEGS would most-likey be what I'd be playing. Marvel Superheroes was fun too but a little too simplistic. I tried playing M&M a couple of times but it really didn't seem to fit for me. I don't care for Tri-stat at all.


Would you have any links to any information? While I like champions I was always a fan of the MEGS system and was happy that someone else bought Pulsar Games. The reason I am asking is that they have not updated their website in over an year and would like to find out more.

[BobGreenwade]

I've ignored this thread out of general disinterest (though no fault of anyone here), but I finally got interested and took a look, so here's my answer:

None.

If it weren't for Champions and the HERO System, I probably would not be involved in the RPG world in any way. In fact, if DOJ hadn't revived the system I probably would have given up at least a year ago.

(Thanks, DOJ!) :D

[Supreme Serpent]

I thought up another game I played way back in high school called Villains and Vigilantes.

The same crew that made V&V also has come out with Living Legends .

[ChaosDrgn]

Superworld, by sheer mistake it's what got me into Champion's in the first place :)

[Misery Lad]

I'd probably lean towards MSH/Advanced, DC Heroes/1st or 2nd Ed., or maybe Tri-Stat. Underground was a "superpunk" game that intrigued me.

It's interesting no one's mentioned Aberrant ;)

Actually, here are a few others that no one has mentioned:

GOD-LIKE
HEROES AND HEROINES
TEENAGERS FROM OUTER SPACE

And I received a freebie at a gaming convention called Heroes Forever. It was put out by the Guild Of Blades Publishing Group and dates back to 1999. I've never played it, never done more than crack open a page or two, so I have no idea how well designed it is.

I have a feeling I'm missing something else...

Oh! Got it! Has anybody mentioned Supergame? I've got a copy that dates back to 1977. Agony Points...Hoody Hoo! There's a stat for you!

Also, someone mentioned Living Legends earlier. Some time back, Jeff Dee offered a free copy of the system (in progress) on the Internet. I downloaded it and was impressed with the amount of work he'd put into it but, at the time, it didn't include a combat system. I checked back numerous times before my computer fried and I lost the URL but there hadn't been any updates. Does anyone know if he ever completed the game? Is there now a complete set of rules (combat system included)? And, if so, where would I find the site?

[Misery Lad]

Here's one I might go for. Anyone remember Top Secret/S.I.? They released a couple of supplements - F.R.E.E.Lancers and F.R.E.E.America, which were a kind of near-future pastiche on the super hero genre. If I chose not to go full-blown into the four-color thing, I'd consider running or playing in a campaign of that background, since it had such a low-level but strongly integrated set of abilities, with the exception of that patchwork whatever-it-was power that the NPC Refit harbored. Seemed like the rules on that one were kind of sketchy. Kind of a Damage Resistance, can't Recover, can only be rebuilt kind of ability. Pretty grim, IIRC.

[Rapier]

Here's one I might go for. Anyone remember Top Secret/S.I.? They released a couple of supplements - F.R.E.E.Lancers and F.R.E.E.America, which were a kind of near-future pastiche on the super hero genre. If I chose not to go full-blown into the four-color thing, I'd consider running or playing in a campaign of that background, since it had such a low-level but strongly integrated set of abilities, with the exception of that patchwork whatever-it-was power that the NPC Refit harbored. Seemed like the rules on that one were kind of sketchy. Kind of a Damage Resistance, can't Recover, can only be rebuilt kind of ability. Pretty grim, IIRC.
They should be arriving any day now. CMON MAILDUDE!!

[Redmenace]

Living Legends
http://www.io.com/unigames/ll.html


It looks mostly inactive but there are basic combat rules




Actually, here are a few others that no one has mentioned:

GOD-LIKE
HEROES AND HEROINES
TEENAGERS FROM OUTER SPACE

And I received a freebie at a gaming convention called Heroes Forever. It was put out by the Guild Of Blades Publishing Group and dates back to 1999. I've never played it, never done more than crack open a page or two, so I have no idea how well designed it is.

I have a feeling I'm missing something else...

Oh! Got it! Has anybody mentioned Supergame? I've got a copy that dates back to 1977. Agony Points...Hoody Hoo! There's a stat for you!

Also, someone mentioned Living Legends earlier. Some time back, Jeff Dee offered a free copy of the system (in progress) on the Internet. I downloaded it and was impressed with the amount of work he'd put into it but, at the time, it didn't include a combat system. I checked back numerous times before my computer fried and I lost the URL but there hadn't been any updates. Does anyone know if he ever completed the game? Is there now a complete set of rules (combat system included)? And, if so, where would I find the site?

[tracer]

DC Heroes. It's the closest to Champions, and actually has some advantages over it.
But if it has advantages, that'll increase its endurance cost.

(Er, sorry.)

If Champions had never been invented, we'd all probably be playing SenZar right now. So we have a lot to be thankful for.

[Just A Guy Name]

But if it has advantages, that'll increase its endurance cost.Heh, someone was bound to say it.
If Champions had never been invented, we'd all probably be playing SenZar right now. So we have a lot to be thankful for.I'd never heard of this system. A Google search turned up some links.. the artwork isn't terrible.:straight:

[JMcL63]

I've long had another term for this, but "White Wolfism" is as good a phrase as any for pretty much everything that I most dislike in today's roleplaying so as to deserve rep! ;)
Care to elaborate?
Well, the thing I have for some time most disliked about White Wolf is their sheer pretentiousness. I mean, I quite like the basic idea of their setting, and I've nothing against their system as such (heck, I've had fun playing their games!), but the whole 'roleplaying is art' line that characterises them (the early editions of their books at least- this might've changed in recent years for all I know) is anathema to me. IMO, the very notion of 'art' is the production of culture for an audience. The very idea that roleplaying is an audience event strikes me as laughable, and, I'm sure, would soon be put in its place by asking a few simple questions of anyone who has been unfortunate enough to have to sit through other people's rolepaying sessions.

Apart from its patent absurdity, one thing I find particularly irritating about this tosh is that is does roleplaying a disservice. First of all, roleplaying is a great innovation in popular culture in its own right, one whose merits have to be judged on their own terms and not by reference to extrinsic notions of cultural quality. Taking on airs and graces by arrogating to roleplaying the status of 'art' obscures this by taking conventional aesthetic benchmarks as an appropriate standard of judgement. I will happily admit that roleplaying exercises the same creative reflexes as do other narrative forms, but that doesn't get round the fact that roleplaying is essentially a private affair, for the entertainment of its participants and not for the sake of an audience.

Moreover, in my experience, proponents of the notion that roleplaying is 'art' have turned out to be the worst of roleplayers. I have found them to be frustrated wannabe actors, and so on, for whom the roleplaying group is a substitute audience instead of a group of fellows engaged in mutual entertainment. I also find that this tendency typical also holds to some version of the idea that 'real roleplaying' and rules of play are mutually exclusive. This utterly contradicts my fundamental outlook that, just like in all games, the rules of rpg's are there to provide a level playing field, and an independent arbitrator to stand in between the conflicting wishes of players.

I'm talking about dice here of course, and I don't think it is accidental that the first manifestion of the 'real roleplaying' curse that I encountered (way back in the early 80's) took the form of essentially diceless superheroing. It was in dealing with the implications of this as we found it back then that me and my gaming buddies came to the view that dice are essential to roleplaying, and that this is as much for the sake of drama as for the sake of, say, combat. I mean, drama is about conflict, which requires opposition. If you never fail in your tasks, you never face opposition, so you have no drama. Which is why so many of the favourite moments I can remember in the lives of my PC's have happened because the dice failed me, and I found my characters in situations that no one present would ever have contrived.

Dice are also important because of what they contribute to one of the key satisfactions of roleplaying- your sense of triumph. I mean, when the villains have been defeated and the day has been saved, how do you want to feel? Would you want to know that you'd taken your licks, but with your quick wits and a measure of fortune, you overcame adversity; or would you rather nurse the guilty secret that everything had actually been pre-scripted and that your GM had rigged everything in advance to satisfy their own notion of how the story should go?

And that's why I hate this real roleplaying tosh with a passion shared only by the collectible marketing format (the single greatest blight on the gaming industry today IMO). Because it's rubbish; because it obscures the real merits of roleplaying and the contributions of the various elements of an rpg (the dice especially) make to those; and because it can actively get in the way of the full enjoyment of the pleasures of roleplaying by all concerned. White Wolf are only relevant to my feelings on this matter insofar as they are a successful games company strongly identified with this cod philosophy. And that's it really. ;)

[Kirby]

Here's one I might go for. Anyone remember Top Secret/S.I.? They released a couple of supplements - F.R.E.E.Lancers and F.R.E.E.America, which were a kind of near-future pastiche on the super hero genre.
Wow, I had forgotten about this, and I even have F.R.E.E.America (F.R.E.E.Lancers was lost a long time ago :cry: ). I even started up a Champions campaign based on the F.R.E.E.America setting. The players were definitely shocked with that one. (I had planned on using "Watchers of the Dragon" as a method for the heroes to reunite the U.S.) I actually liked their "superhero" concepts because they weren't too powerful. We had fun with those, even when we created our nefarious villains of the Fourth Reich (whose duration was even shorter than the Third Reich).

[bblackmoor]

I'd never heard of this system [SenZar].

You might find this amusing: The SenZar Drinking Game (http://atrocities.primaryerror.net/sdg.html)

Whoever wrote it really did their research.

[wcw43921]

. . .Then Wheaties would have to be "The Breakfast Of Second-Place Finishers."

:D :D :D :D :D

Thank You--I'm here all week. . .

[Solomon]

Well, the thing I have for some time most disliked about White Wolf is their sheer pretentiousness.

(much snippage ensues)

Well said. I was a disgruntled ex-fan of WW's stuff, but I recently picked up a copy of their new World of Darkness basic ruleset and Vampire setting. I decided to give the new line a chance because an interview with developer Justin Achilli gave me the distinct impression that WW was trying to get rid of some "White Wolfism". First of all, the annoying "rules are not important, that's why our rules suck, honest!" mindset. A conscious effort has been made to create a more streamlined and balanced ruleset. Also, gone is the king of all "White-Wolfisms", and the worst by-product of the "Rolep... ops... Storytelling is an Art" mumbo-jumbo: the metaplot! I'm sure I won't miss it.

[Kristopher]

I always found White Wolf to have a heavy atmosphere of pretentiousness. Note that I'm not talking about the game as much as I'm talking about the staff. At least, that's how a lot of them came across online back when I was on the alt.whitewolf.games newsgroup. Maybe it was the constant talk of how there was a proper way to play the game, and anyone who deviated from that proper way was playing "superheroes with fangs" or some other "detestable" violation of the game.

On their new releases: dropping the metaplot, well, that should have happened back about the time they first thought about giving the game metaplot. Metaplots in RPGs almost always stink, and WW's was pretty darn stinky.

As for the rules changes -- they suck. #1 on the inhale list? Single-roll combat determination. As far as I can tell, there's one roll to determine whether you hit AND how much damage you did. Bleah. :nonp:

[tracer]

You might find this amusing: The SenZar Drinking Game (http://atrocities.primaryerror.net/sdg.html)
Not to mention this:

Long-Winded Review of SenZar 1st Edition (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_3161.html)

[nexus]

As for the rules changes -- they suck. #1 on the inhale list? Single-roll combat determination. As far as I can tell, there's one roll to determine whether you hit AND how much damage you did. Bleah. :nonp:

Yep, one roll.

Dex+Weapon Damage+Modifers for ranged combat.

Strength+Weapon Damage+Modifiers-Target's Defense Score for melee.

Target number of 7. The number of successes determined how much damage you inflict.

Its also advised that iniative be rolled once for the entire battle. It is rather quick and brutal.

[Agent X]

The information I have came from the DC Heroes list. The new owners are fans who bought the rights to the system, much like Hero. They have a lot of plans but they have not done much to date. They will still be calling the game Blood of Heroes [bad choice, imo] and they promise to get better art and add some needed depth to the campaign world. Ugggh! Blood of Heroes is a HORRIBLE NAME. I understand the desire to trade on a recognizable brand name. However, this particular recognition won't make them many sales, IMO.

[bblackmoor]

They will still be calling the game Blood of Heroes [bad choice, imo]...

Makes me think of post-apocalyptic gladiators, starring Rutger Hauer and Josie Chen.

Actually, realistically, it makes me think of non-superpowered war. Like World War 2, or Korea. Something like that.

[Ron]

DC Heroes is one of my favorite games and I am pretty much interested in what the new owners of Pulsar will do with MEGS in the near future.

[Solomon]

As for the rules changes -- they suck. #1 on the inhale list? Single-roll combat determination. As far as I can tell, there's one roll to determine whether you hit AND how much damage you did. Bleah. :nonp:

Ugh. That looks like a good idea taken way too far. WW's combat resolution used to have too many opposed rolls - for initiative, to hit, damage & soaking... The damage system in "Combat" (and Street Fighter IIRC) was much faster and reduced the "soaking a shotgun" effect. But from that to a single-roll mechanic... bleh.

[memorax300]

The information I have came from the DC Heroes list. The new owners are fans who bought the rights to the system, much like Hero. They have a lot of plans but they have not done much to date. They will still be calling the game Blood of Heroes [bad choice, imo] and they promise to get better art and add some needed depth to the campaign world.

Thanks for the info. I do hope they at least update the website. It's been almost a year since any update to it.

[Kristopher]

Ugh. That looks like a good idea taken way too far. WW's combat resolution used to have too many opposed rolls - for initiative, to hit, damage & soaking... The damage system in "Combat" (and Street Fighter IIRC) was much faster and reduced the "soaking a shotgun" effect. But from that to a single-roll mechanic... bleh.


I never found the old system that slow. Combat in White Wolf was fast and bloody, and skilled fighters tore the unskilled apart easily -- as it should be. It had its flaws, but they didn't need to futz with it like they now have.