Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In Comics

[Vigil]

Hi All,

In the past I've posted all kinds of polls on all kinds of things, all comics related. we've covered the best, the strongest, etc. in all of their myriad forms. This, on the other hand, isn't reallly a poll in any organized sense. What it is, is just a question. Of all the charcters you've read and enjoyed, which one is it that you thought was underutilized or underrated? Which character did you feel never got their due? And why? Just curious.


Vigil

[Enforcer84]

Bill Foster, Giant Man II. His white and blue costume is one of my favorites and he's a guy who could easily cut it in the Avengers as a fill in for Hank Pym when the latter is on one of his mental vacations...

[Vigil]

I loved Bill foster, also. I thought his original Black Goliath costume was one of the best ever in comics. For me, though, there's one character who I think has been more mailgned and mistreated and mauled than any other in comics ever....Wonder Man. For 30 years, I've watched every writer but Steve Englehart maul him, and for no readily explained reason. Here's a character who is , literally, the total package and he gets short shrift every time. I just don't get it. In his origin, he's almsot as smart as Tony Stark and when powered up, is as strong as Giant Man, hits as hard as Thor's hammer and is as good a figher and as dextrous as Cap! Say what! He rules! So why isn't he treated that way?

[Mutant for Hire]

Some characters are just born to be whipping boys. Wonder Man is one of them. Everyone craps on him because everyone else craps on him. He's the Rodney Dangerfield of the Avengers, he gets no respect.

[CrosshairCollie]

Yeah, Wondy got crapped on, except for his own book (well, the first few issues he got crapped on, but he very quickly righted himself).

For my money, though, Speedball was Da Man. His power could be SO MUCH ... if only writers would work with the power; instead, all he did was bounce around and plow into things. Then, along came Fabian Nicieza and New Warriors, where Speedy started figuring out how to use his powers, at one point punching Terrax across the East River. :)

[Vigil]

I never read the New Warriors but that sounds cool.

Beyond poor ol' Wondy, my other favorite charity case is none other than Mon-El. I men how can a guy so powerful get no notice. I could never understand how it was that every one fawned over Superboy and ignored Mon, who was easily as powerful. I mean here's a guy who has no true weaknesses (once cured of the lead and red sun thing) and yet he gets one punched by Darkseid and his servitors. About the only time Mon-El lived up to his potential was his last true appearance, Giffen's LOSH #4 wwhere he kills off the Time Trapper. But talk about a waste of potential. Yeesh!

[megaplayboy]

Well, Dr. Strange seems to have been rediscovered recently, but for about the last decade he's been pretty underused.
The Silver Surfer probably deserves to be back on a major team title, assuming they could work out the power balance issue.
Is Shang-Chi busing tables somewhere?

[Vigil]

The Surfer's great, too. I liked his first and second series. The last 2 i'm not crazy about. he was always at his best with the other original Defenders. Talk about a tough team. Yikes!


Speaking of power balance, just how powerful Champs wise do you think old Surfy is? I've seen write ups and they're all over the map. I'm thinking 90 STR base and probably 200 -300 active points in his powers...which are hard enough to figure out.

[megaplayboy]

The Surfer's great, too. I liked his first and second series. The last 2 i'm not crazy about. he was always at his best with the other original Defenders. Talk about a tough team. Yikes!


Speaking of power balance, just how powerful Champs wise do you think old Surfy is? I've seen write ups and they're all over the map. I'm thinking 90 STR base and probably 200 -300 active points in his powers...which are hard enough to figure out.

In combat he's probably mostly operating at 120-180 AP, and out of combat, or with extra prep time, he might be capable of twice that(i.e., he's supposed to be able to destroy a city or even a planet--and he's constructed elaborate buildings before using nothing but the power cosmic).
It's a rare occurence in the comics for him to be seriously injured--he's pretty much invulnerable to almost all conventional weapons. Plus he can dodge autofire lightspeed weapons.

[Batman]

Although technically not a comic, the Justice League animated series likes to undercut Superman a LOT, imho. Especially in the first season, the Big Blue Boy Scout is every major villian's punching bag...although a twisted, sadistic side of me doesn't mind seeing the Super-God pounded about by a bunch of galactic lowlifes...you would think that he's called Super man for a reason, would you not?

And Doomsday...ugh. The being who supposedly kills Superman ends up being lobotomized by him...er...a transdimensional parallel version of him...in the span of about five minutes.

Don't get me wrong; I love Justice League. Its just that their treatment of some people don't completely jive with mine.

[Hugh Neilson]

I recall an old com,ment on the golden age Immortal Man noting that the fact a guy with a power level equivalent to Superman getting killed every adventure leaves one with the impression that super-intelligence isn't exactly part of his powers repertoire.

On that theme, I liked the Ressurection Man concept. "kill me and I come back with different powers". A bit too easy to slide into deus ex machina, though.

[Doug McCrae]

I really liked Raven from the Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans. One of my favourite characters in comics. Is she still around? She had very poorly defined powers though, even by comic book standards.

[OddHat]

I think Zatana gets less credit than she's due, or at leats she did until the early 90s when I stopped reading comics. A legacy character (her father Zatara showed up in Action Comics #1) with power equal to or greater than any JLAer, and she's mostly been "the girl". I think they downpowered her in continuity as well. Powergirl got similarly gimped, and her origin turned into an absurd mess.

Doctor Occult was a great, weird character, his power going up and down the scales and that whole "Mystic Hermaphrodite Private Eye" thing. He was the prototype for a certain type of street-supermage, but he rarely got used to anything close to his full potential.

I always liked the original Atom. He was modled on Joeseph Greenstein (http://www.beezone.com/MightyAtom/mighty_atom.html), one of the great stongmen. If the character had been written to be as strange and quirky as the strongman he was based on ... well, probably he still wouldn't have been a hit, but he'd have been a much more interesting background character.

[Lightray]

I really liked Raven from the Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans. One of my favourite characters in comics. Is she still around? She had very poorly defined powers though, even by comic book standards.
Yes, she's in the Teen Titans. She and Cyborg are the "old" ones (although Gar is probably pretty old -- but who knows what his origin story is these days...).


Powergirl got similarly gimped, and her origin turned into an absurd mess.

...

I always liked the original Atom. He was modled on Joeseph Greenstein (http://www.beezone.com/MightyAtom/mighty_atom.html), one of the great stongmen. If the character had been written to be as strange and quirky as the strongman he was based on ... well, probably he still wouldn't have been a hit, but he'd have been a much more interesting background character.
Read JSA! (and now Strange Tales). No character in the JSA is underrated or underused.


I'm going to vote for Alpha Flight. The real Alpha Flight. Snowbird, Box, Shaman, Dimond Lil, etc. are an interesting group of established characters, being totally ignored in favor of the goofy new characters in the current book.

[Yogzilla]

E-Man and Nova

If you know WHO I mean, you know WHAT I mean... :-D

[Eyendasky80]

Blue Beetle. He should be the Reed Richards of DC but instead he's often designated as "fat guy." That's just crap, it's the only problem I have with Kieth Giffen. It was a funny subplot, for maybe a year, but he should have cleaned it up quicker. Beetle was the fat kid of DC for two decades and I'm sure some writer who loved the idea is going to make him fat again. I don't mind Beetle being the comic relief as long as he's the smart half of him and Booster Gold. But being comic relief doesn't mean you lose your technical genius, in fact, many technical genius types double as comic relief in fiction. Chuck Dixon gave Beetle respect and then Giffen wrote another Justice League series. I like Giffen's league so I picked it up, hoping he wouldn't undue all the good work Dixon had done. I was pleased, he was very respectful of Beetle's new outlook on life, but I got a bad feeling about any future Formerly Known as the Justice League series. Identity crisis kind of screwed up the current FKJL team since Elongated Man isn't going to be very big on adventuring for a little while.

[Moody Loner]

Although technically not a comic, the Justice League animated series likes to undercut Superman a LOT, imho. Especially in the first season, the Big Blue Boy Scout is every major villian's punching bag...


Due to his popularity and near-universal knowledge of his power level, Superman has the crappiest job in the series.

He's the guy that has to get stomped so that the writers can establish the villains' credibility.

[Hyper-Man]

E-Man and Nova

If you know WHO I mean, you know WHAT I mean... :-D
E-Man rocked!

I am going to go out on a limb here and not name a character with superpowers. Nope, IMO, the most underused character is Snapper Carr of old time JLA fame. Rick Jones, his Marvel comics counterpart, has had scads of different spotlight moments (Hulk's origin, Captain Mar'vell, etc..) in that universe but ol' Snapp is just an afterthought these days (i think.. i haven't been a regular collecter in 10 years).

HM

[Supreme Serpent]

Due to his popularity and near-universal knowledge of his power level, Superman has the crappiest job in the series.

He's the guy that has to get stomped so that the writers can establish the villains' credibility.

Yup, he's their Worf. :)

IMO: (double negatives aside)

Most underrated: Hank Pym

Most underused: Wolverine! Um, no. Hmm....well, I am kind of sorry that the Beetle is a hero now - I always enjoyed him as a villain. I'd like for him to take that ID up again now that he's established his bona-fides as a hero, and it would be better than ending up as "Mach-38" in a few years.

[red_eagle123]

I really liked Raven from the Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans. One of my favourite characters in comics. Is she still around? She had very poorly defined powers though, even by comic book standards.

Raven is still currently appearing in comics, yes. She just rejoined the latest incarnation of the Teen Titans, and even had her origin story linked to the Brother Blood 'religion'. She also got slightly de-aged.

As far as her powers go, they were simple. She had 4 powers. She could teleport, She was an empath, and she could heal (previously by taking on the wounds herself then expunging them). It was her fourth power that's always been a bit hard to define. Her soul-self. It's.. well... her soul, kinda, but it can wrap people up (Darkness, 1 hex AE), hurt people, tie them up (entangle), and be used as a doorway to focus her teleportation with.

[Hermit]

My mentions:

Justice, Vance Astrovick did great in New Warriors, showed signs of being Cap's heir apparent, and then somehow never seemed to really get past the 'Oh wow, I'm in the Avengers' gawking. I'm sure it was meant to be cute or show just how imposing being on the big team can be for a hero, but it ended up sort of shoving him to the sidelines.

Photon-formerly Captain Marvel- Monica can turn to ANY form of energy. She can project energy. She was a part of a harbor patrol, and thus a moderate detective with potential to get better at it. We're talking power AND Versitility and a personality just waiting for some development. She had a good one at the start, but then... well, no one seemed to know what to do with her. A true waste.

[Whitewings]

Depending on the writers, the Green Lanterns have often been used far, far below their potential. The green light can do almost anything the Lantern wants, subject to the limits of imagination and strength of will, but 90+% of the time, they seem to be just run of the mill flying blasters. This has improved since Kyle Rayner became the Green Lantern, but still...

[sbarron]

Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In ComicsLOL! After reading the title, I spent 5 minutes on Google trying to figure out who this underutilized "Iyo" character was, and why everyone knew about him but me. Time for a nap. ;)

[Supreme]

For me it's a tie between the Martian Manhunter and Jimmy Olsen.

[megaplayboy]

Iyo: The Most Underrated Or Underused Character In ComicsLOL! After reading the title, I spent 5 minutes on Google trying to figure out who this underutilized "Iyo" character was, and why everyone knew about him but me. Time for a nap. ;)

I first thought it was about evil Professor Ivo :)

[Vigil]

Alpha Flight is another group that been completely abused and maligned, for sure. I'm talking the original team in the late 70' s here. I remeber being completely outraged after reading issue 12 where John Byrne, Canadian ex-patriot killed off the symbol of Canada, Guardian, for really no reason at all. I was enraged. Would that do that Captain America, or even Captain Britain (wait, maybe they did to Captain Britain). I hated what Byrne did with the team and what's been done since. In their first group appearance they wer shown to be every bit the equal of the Avengers and then they just turned into crippled, neurotic, psychotic messes with Byrne. Infuriates me to this day.

[Just A Guy Name]

E-Man and Nova

If you know WHO I mean, you know WHAT I mean... :-DYeah. Didn't like the idea of Nova with powers too much, but I sure miss E-Man.

[Vigil]

LOL. I apologize for the header. I thought it was all caps until I saw it afterwards. So much for internet jargon. lol

[Just A Guy Name]

Blue Beetle. He should be the Reed Richards of DC but instead he's often designated as "fat guy." ..And what about the Dan Garrett Blue Beetle? (the archaeologist/Charlton version.. not the original, but the one I remember, and liked, best).

[Vigil]

But, if there were a charcter named Iyo, what kind of charcter would he or she be and would cause him or her to be underrated? It's fascinating. Persoanlly, I would think Iyo would be a manga/anime style character with spikey hair and a motorcylce. maybe he could transform into other mecha-types too. The catch would be that they'd be practically useless. Maybe he could do convection ovens and turnhis hands into egg beaters and such.

[phydaux]

In their first group appearance they wer shown to be every bit the equal of the Avengers and then they just turned into crippled, neurotic, psychotic messes with Byrne.

Doesn't Byrne do that to ALL the characters he writes?

Hell, I remember a parody about a hospital unit that helped comic book characters with hopelessly screwed up continuity. It was called "The Byrne Ward."

[Vigil]

I thought Byrne treated the FF quite reverentially,actuallly. It may have been his best work. But Alpha Flight he honestly seemed to hate. Maybe he felt they were Clarememont's charcters and so wanted to punish them in his stead or something equally neurotic. All I really know is that he took great characters (who haven't been great since) and savaged them.

Another one I'd put on this list (number 3 anfetr Wonder Man and Mon-El) is the Martian Manhunter. Here's a guy that represents the most baroque excess of the silver age and who should, by rights, be able to walk all over the rest of the League put together and he comes across as half punching bag, half klutz. He sems to be constantly crippled or underpowered or maybe he's just restrained so the Superman gets to do everything. Plus he seems to forget half of his abilities on a regular, ongoing, bais. Just look at all of the different write ups for him in DC Heroes. His abilities seems to change every month. Instead of using all of his baroque glory, writers seems to try to limit or contain him and it seems to be mostly in service to DC's editorial policy that no one can eclipse Superman.

[GoldenAge]

How about the Creeper? It seems to me that he's become the king of cameo appearances. Are the folks at DC just trying to keep his copy write current?

I'm also a big fan of Uncle Sam and the Freedom Fighters. I'd like to see them get some face time as well. Can anyone out there give me a definitive list of U.S.'s powers? Okay, maybe we fans could, but its obvious that very few comic book writers know what he's capable of.

And now, I give you my most under rated character... Captain Marvel!
Here's a guy that could be MUCH more than he is. I was very disappointed when they let him go from the JSA. :weep: Thank goodness there are some positive changes for Cap coming in 2005!

Heck, I’ll throw out another… Captain Comet; the man born 100,000 years before his time! This guy is the first mutant of any kind in any universe. Stories involving him could be awesome, spanning the gulf between 4-color superhero comics and sci-fi pulp stories. I would LOVE to see him back in action. To date (since the 50s) his greatest achievement in comics was being the first hero to die at the gulag riots in Kingdom Come.

[Vigil]

Oooh, yeah. Captain Comet's a great choice. I first encountered him in SSOSV and thought he was a cooler, more tragic version of Super man. I think there's a lot of parallels between him and the Martian Manhunter and it would be way cool to have both of them in the League. I thought he was well handled in SSOSV except for constantly getting one punched by Grodd and Blockbuster. It seems Comet put all of his points into TK and such and none into PD or CON. Bad thinking there.

[Hugh Neilson]

I'm also a big fan of Uncle Sam and the Freedom Fighters. I'd like to see them get some face time as well.

**koff**Suyperman/Batman15**koff**

[casualplayer]

I think Captain Comet got killed in LEGION (whatever year.)

I loved Martian Manhunter's series, but it was too thoughtful to last. Ostrander is too much for the average reader.

People have mentioned Ted Kord/Blue Beetle and Dan Garrett/Blue Beetle. Ted knows about a hundred people who could retrieve the Scarab from where it was buried in a rockslide when Dan was killed. I have no idea why they haven't recovered it and bestowed it on someone, preferably Ted. Superman class powers, Ted's personality, that would be some good reading.

Power Girl should have her own book but Geoff Johns has made her into a whiny, needy tabula rasa. One black mark on an otherwise distinguished writing career. Maybe she's back on the diet soft drinks? You do know that she was originally supposed to be in Formerly Known as JLA, right? Johns had priority claim and also made her unsuitable for use anyway. Mary Marvel was "closest equivalent powerhouse."

I sure wouldn't mind seeing some more Miracleman and family.

[Eyendasky80]

It's been retrieved and it went very badly for Ted. Can't remember the details to save my life, but if you look around I'm sure you can find them. I believe he may even have it in his possession, but can't use it. In Kingdom Come, it was rumored his power armor was powered by the scarab.

[assault]

People have mentioned Ted Kord/Blue Beetle and Dan Garrett/Blue Beetle. Ted knows about a hundred people who could retrieve the Scarab from where it was buried in a rockslide when Dan was killed. I have no idea why they haven't recovered it and bestowed it on someone, preferably Ted. Superman class powers, Ted's personality, that would be some good reading.

Power Girl should have her own book but Geoff Johns has made her into a whiny, needy tabula rasa. One black mark on an otherwise distinguished writing career. Maybe she's back on the diet soft drinks? You do know that she was originally supposed to be in Formerly Known as JLA, right? Johns had priority claim and also made her unsuitable for use anyway. Mary Marvel was "closest equivalent powerhouse."


The scarab came back in the series BB had back in the 80s. It turned out to "really" be a nasty alien critter, which had turned Dan Garrett into a zombie after his "death". An unfortunate retcon, but an OK story.

I reread the series over the weekend, for the first time since it came out. It actually wasn't too bad. The only real problems with it were the obligatory crossovers with Legends and Millenium, which caused awkward jumps in the plotline, but that was a problem for all DCs titles from that period.

In fact, this series was good enough that I was initially resistent to the inept version of the character that showed up in Justice League. And I'm appalled by what seems to have happened to the character since....

As for Power Girl: she was, of course, originally a very strong "take no BS" character. Yet another character who has lost her way in the hands of hacks...

[Eyendasky80]

Mary neatly filled the role of Captain Marvel as "character portrayed one hundred times more naive and simple (bordline dense) than anyone else who ever worked with the character has portrayed him/her." In Giffen's defense, he admits that he never could strike the balance between the wisdom of Solomon and the thought process of a fourteen year old from the forties so out of respect for the character he stopped using him.
Yet he goes and does it again with Mary. Really, I have more respect for people who depart from a character's established personality in the name of progress than those who do it for a laugh and say it was an accident. I'm beginning to realise what a love/hate relationship I have for Giffen. You know, I'm not sure, but it seems to me that Guy Gardner's personality was established by Giffen as well. He started life out as your basic cookie cutter GL, so sometimes the comedic approach gives you gold. I heard he went nuts before JLI, but I'm not sure if it was the particular brand of nuts Giffen gave him.

[Just A Guy Name]

Hmm.. temporal distortions seem to be occurring more frequently. Could it be due to Dr. Who's renewed presence?

[Lord Liaden]

I'm going to take a different tack, and mention a comic villain that I feel was never used to his full potential: Brother Blood, enemy of the New Teen Titans (Wolfman/Perez era). In many ways this character could have become the DC Universe version of Dr. Doom: although not a scientific genius, he was every bit as subtle and epic a schemer and manipulator as Doom - but much more patient, willing to accept short-term defeats if they advanced his long-term goals. His preferred method of conquest was groundbreaking for comics of that era, and potentially more effective and long lasting than brute force: induce others to worship him and serve him willingly.

Last I saw of him he was living a pastoral life as an amnesiac. If that's still true there's no reason not to bring him back.

[Eyendasky80]

Now he's a whiny teenager. Johns strikes again. I don't see why people still like this guy, he's totally out of good ideas.

[assault]

Now he's a whiny teenager.

Which "he"?

[Bill_CCHKK]

Which "he"?
Brother Blood (in the current Teen Titans book, a few issues back)

- Bill

[Twilight]

Brother Blood (in the current Teen Titans book, a few issues back)

- Bill

You must be speaking of some other Brother Blood, one who isn't the creepy character that Johns is writing. He's certainly not a whiner by any means, though admittedly rather mother obsessed.

[Eyendasky80]

You must be speaking of some other Brother Blood, one who isn't the creepy character that Johns is writing. He's certainly not a whiner by any means, though admittedly rather mother obsessed.

I am not. He whined constantly and he was about as creepy as a five year old with a really runny nose that insists on pawing you after he gets done rubbing snot all over his hands.

[Twilight]

I am not. He whined constantly and he was about as creepy as a five year old with a really runny nose that insists on pawing you after he gets done rubbing snot all over his hands.

He didn't whine at all and if you don't find a kid who latches onto a mother figure for the sole purpose of killing her creepy then you must be really creepy. Then there was the whole blood drinking thing. Granted he's not the original Brother Blood but he's an interesting take on the character, in my opinion. Geoff Johns indeed strikes again, with a good story.

[Eyendasky80]

He didn't whine at all and if you don't find a kid who latches onto a mother figure for the sole purpose of killing her creepy then you must be really creepy. Then there was the whole blood drinking thing. Granted he's not the original Brother Blood but he's an interesting take on the character, in my opinion. Geoff Johns indeed strikes again, with a good story.

Hey buddy. Why don't you take two steps back from Johns heiny and not turn this into some personal vendetta, okay? I think he's slipped, you're obviously madly in love with the man and who am I to judge the two of you? So I say live and let live! You enjoy Johns and I'll enjoy saying he's out of good ideas.

Because he is.

Out of good ideas.

[Twilight]

Hey buddy. Why don't you take two steps back from Johns heiny and not turn this into some personal vendetta, okay? I think he's slipped, you're obviously madly in love with the man and who am I to judge the two of you? So I say live and let live! You enjoy Johns and I'll enjoy saying he's out of good ideas.

Because he is.

Out of good ideas.

The only one making this into a personal vendetta apparently. I state my opinion and you claim I'm having a homosexual lust for the man, very mature indeed. :stupid:

And if you call writing good stories being out of good ideas, then I feel sorry for you.

That's all I have to say about that.

[Bill_CCHKK]

You must be speaking of some other Brother Blood, one who isn't the creepy character that Johns is writing. He's certainly not a whiner by any means, though admittedly rather mother obsessed.
Not me, man. I was just answering the question of who the "he" being referred to was. I've been very much enjoying the current Teen Titans run, but I think part of that is the fact that I didn't read the title before about a year ago, so I have no idea if any continuity/back story is getting messed up.

This thread has been interesting to me, but I don't have much to contribute to it, due to the fact that I took a 15 year hiatus from reading comics. Back in the 80s, I read Marvel comics pretty much exclusively. When I started back about a year or so ago, I was annoyed by the multitude of X-titles, and started reading DC (plus Astro City). So I can't comment on the current state of old Marvel characters, and I don't know who's missing in the new DC. And, frankly, I'm just fine with that :)

- Bill

[Lord Liaden]

Yes, the Brother Blood I'm referring to was a very different character from the one you're describing. The original BB was a charismatic, ominously powerful presence, the leader of an international "church"/cult who was a master at manipulating the minds and emotions of others. He played the Titans like a flute to advance his plans, but ultimately fell prey to his own hubris, and the fury of a woman scorned.

[Eyendasky80]

The only one making this into a personal vendetta apparently. I state my opinion and you claim I'm having a homosexual lust for the man, very mature indeed. :stupid:

And if you call writing good stories being out of good ideas, then I feel sorry for you.

That's all I have to say about that.

I never said you had homosexual lust :stupid:, I said you appear to be in love with the man because you leap to personal insult to defend any who dare impugn his honor. You wanna draw some conclusions on your own, that's your business and I'd appreciate if you wouldn't credit me with your thought processes. And your opinion was I'm creepy so don't play innocent victim with me, pal, you've already showed a certain degree of disrespect here. May as well stick to your guns.

And no I don't call writing good stories being out of good ideas, I call former good writers writing bad stories being out of good ideas. Don't feel sorry for me, I'm a happy person. You seem a little stressed, though.

And I guarantee you've got more to say.

Johns is out of good ideas. :tonguewav:

[Lord Liaden]

Folks, I'm not sure Mr. Johns would feel good about being the cause of personal animosity between comics fans. Maybe we can just agree that tastes differ, and continue to discuss our favorite underused characters. :)

[Eyendasky80]

Love too, but apparently my opinion is wrong.

[Twilight]

Folks, I'm not sure Mr. Johns would feel good about being the cause of personal animosity between comics fans. Maybe we can just agree that tastes differ, and continue to discuss our favorite underused characters. :)

That works fine for me, I'm not gonna continue what seems to be a hopeless argument. As for my favourite underused character, well many of them seem to have been listed already but Shang Chi is definetly one of them. DC can find something for Richard Dragon to do, in a very well written comic I might add though probably not to everybody's tastes, so why can't Marvel find something for Shang-Chi to do?

After all Fu-Manchu couldn't have been the ONLY villain from the Far East could he?

[Vigil]

One of the things that I do find a bit troublesome in the industry is the constant, almost incessant ret coning of established characters. It happens with magneto all of the time, most recently with the lunatic Magneto who infiltrated the X-Men, destroyed them from within then tried to destroy and depopulate New York. Only, I guess that wasn't the real Magneto cause the real Magneto was having tea with Profeesor X in Genosha while their mutual students were being slaughtered in New York. Maybe the Magneto in New Yok was mutant who just happened to have exactly the same mutant powers and appearance as magneto only he was evil and insane and not drinking tea in Genosha with Prof. X. Or maybe he was a skrull (remember the brilliant cow-skrulls story from FF?). Or maybe he was robot? Or maybe...?

Which, naturally enough, brings me to Brother Blood. I think Blood (from the 80's Titans) was one of those characters who had the problem of not being broke so they felt they had to fix him. I do find the current Titans run to be their best in over a decade but I don't think the change in Blood has helped anything at all or forwarded the story in a way that returning the classic Brother Blood wouldn't. Now, if they made some connection between Blood and Ras Al Ghul, that may be interesting.

vigil

[Twilight]

One of the things that I do find a bit troublesome in the industry is the constant, almost incessant ret coning of established characters. It happens with magneto all of the time, most recently with the lunatic Magneto who infiltrated the X-Men, destroyed them from within then tried to destroy and depopulate New York. Only, I guess that wasn't the real Magneto cause the real Magneto was having tea with Profeesor X in Genosha while their mutual students were being slaughtered in New York. Maybe the Magneto in New Yok was mutant who just happened to have exactly the same mutant powers and appearance as magneto only he was evil and insane and not drinking tea in Genosha with Prof. X. Or maybe he was a skrull (remember the brilliant cow-skrulls story from FF?). Or maybe he was robot? Or maybe...?

Which, naturally enough, brings me to Brother Blood. I think Blood (from the 80's Titans) was one of those characters who had the problem of not being broke so they felt they had to fix him. I do find the current Titans run to be their best in over a decade but I don't think the change in Blood has helped anything at all or forwarded the story in a way that returning the classic Brother Blood wouldn't. Now, if they made some connection between Blood and Ras Al Ghul, that may be interesting.

vigil

You're right, that would be interesting, though from what I understand R'as al Ghul is dead now so that's unlikely to happen at least with Johns writing as he's usually not fond of ressurecting characters others have killed [Fury and Dove being the exceptions as far as I know.]

As for the change in Blood, who knows why Johns did it? Perhaps he felt he couldn't write the original version as well as Wolfman and Perez did or perhaps he felt the original's story was so good that he wanted to let it rest and thus created a new version? Or perhaps he wanted to use Brother Blood and said "oh crud Winnick killed the original in The Outsiders, better try and do something interesting with the new guy." We'll never know really. :)

[Vigil]

We could torture Johns and force him to reveal why. That would work. I think Johns is kinda like Busiek in some ways in that he does seems to have respect for whats gone before and for the work of others. Maybe he did feel that he couldn't do anything with the original Bro Blood or maybe he's just waiting to ring him back in one of his story twists. Wasn't it Johns who revamped the JSA and put together the sleek twist on Hawkman's origin?

Beyond the characters which we've already mentioned I'd nominate Rogue as yet another completey mishandled character. In her early appearances as a villains she was duking it out with the entire Avengers line up. Almost immediately upon joining the X-Men she seemed to forget how powerful she is and how to fight and after a while didn't even use her power absorption abilities. A clasic Martian Manhunter syndrome if I've ever seen it.

Vigil

[Twilight]

[QUOTE=Vigil]We could torture Johns and force him to reveal why. That would work. I think Johns is kinda like Busiek in some ways in that he does seems to have respect for whats gone before and for the work of others. Maybe he did feel that he couldn't do anything with the original Bro Blood or maybe he's just waiting to ring him back in one of his story twists. Wasn't it Johns who revamped the JSA and put together the sleek twist on Hawkman's origin?

Yup that was him. He also added surprising depth to the character of Black Adam during his JSA run and made Flash's Rogue's Gallery some of the most interesting characters around. Granted I didn't like his Zoom but ya can't win em all. Rumour has it that Johns might get a go at writing Wonder Woman next year as well.

[Twilight]

Another criminally underrated character, in my opinion, would have to be Spoiler. Unfortunately she's going to be eternally underused it seems as she's been killed in the horrid horrid Wargames story. She was a fun character, in my opinion and I was really enjoying her budding friendship with Batgirl and her relationship with Robin. Of course all that got shoved to the wayside as a second rate Bat-villain, Black Mask, needed to be made to look badass. It's really sad.

[Rapier]

Another criminally underrated character, in my opinion, would have to be Spoiler. Unfortunately she's going to be eternally underused it seems as she's been killed in the horrid horrid Wargames story. She was a fun character, in my opinion and I was really enjoying her budding friendship with Batgirl and her relationship with Robin. Of course all that got shoved to the wayside as a second rate Bat-villain, Black Mask, needed to be made to look badass. It's really sad.
You know there is this program on the Discovery Channel about the most dangerous jobs. I really think that hanging around with a BatMan has GOT to be up on that list.

It's like hanging around when Angela Lansbury (sp?) shows up. That bitch hits town and you just KNOW someone is about to drop dead and someone else is going to be blamed for it.

[Twilight]

You know there is this program on the Discovery Channel about the most dangerous jobs. I really think that hanging around with a BatMan has GOT to be up on that list.

It's like hanging around when Angela Lansbury (sp?) shows up. That bitch hits town and you just KNOW someone is about to drop dead and someone else is going to be blamed for it.

At least with Jessica Fletcher [Angela Landsbury's character in Murder, She Wrote] you know that it's usually somebody who deserves it getting offed when she shows up. How often can you say that with Batman?

[Jhamin]

A personal favorite of mine, and incredibly obscure Iron Man character..

Sunturian!

The guy was living microwave energy, was a genius who did this to himself *on purpose* (not a lab accident), and was such a good guy that he didn't even do it for the power. He did it so he could continue his work on a solar energy collector for the benefit of mankind.

The real kicker? He works for Roxxon and actually feels loyalty to his employer and is able to defend them as an imperfect company in an imperfect world.

This guy has it all! Power, brains, a heroic heart, and an evil megacorp for a boss. Why he doesn't show up more often to ethically challenge heros bashing big corporations is beyond me.

[Vigil]

Sunturion was a great character and it was in that same story (written by one of the greatest but sadly unheralded writers of the Bronze Age, David Micheline) that Iron Man's cool Space Armor made its debut. That was one happenin' suit of armor. And back then a new set of armor was a real big deal.

Another character from around the same time period who I found completely fascinating was Woodgod. I thought he was a character with a great premise and tons of promise to develop in any number of interesting ways. Instead he appeared acouple of times, maybe, and then vanished never to be hreard from again.

Around that same period, Marvel Premiere created a whole shwackload of interesting characters: the 3D Man, Monark Starstalker, the debut of Scott Lang as Ant Man (with magnificent Perez art), Paladin, and a whole bunch of others.

Plus it was the same time period that brought us 2 of the coolest charcters of the 70's, Deathlok and The Son of Satan.

Ah, the memories.

Vigil

[Vigil]

Re; Angela Landsbury.

You think old Jessica Fletcher is bad, look at the MacMillans from MacMillan and Wife. He was the Police Commssioner and yet practically everyone they knew was murderer or a victim. What kind of people do they hang around with is what I wonder. In an interview, I recall Rock Hudson voicing his concerns that if the MacMillans didn't move, soon, the town they lived in would be depopulated. So they moved them the big city where it would take years to kill everyone.

[Vigil]

On the villainous side of things, there are 2 that I can think of who don't get anywhere near the credit they deserve, Nemesis Kid and Mantis, The Power Parasite.

Nemesis Kid is possibly the coolest villain the classic LOSH ever faced. Who else can match and then surpass power, instantly, with Mon-El, or Superboy. The way his power is structured, as I understand it, is that he can create a superior version of an opponent's power, the perfect defense to the opponents power or, if all else fails, the perfect escape. How cool is that?

As for Mantis, I've always found him the most interesting character in the New Gods pantheon. He really shone in the SSOSV and has made afew appearances since but he's never eally been explored as a character.

[Kristopher]

You know there is this program on the Discovery Channel about the most dangerous jobs. I really think that hanging around with a BatMan has GOT to be up on that list.

It's like hanging around when Angela Lansbury (sp?) shows up. That bitch hits town and you just KNOW someone is about to drop dead and someone else is going to be blamed for it.


Spoiler is evidently alive, and the new Robin, since Tim Drake quit I guess.

[Vigil]

That must spin otu of issue 7 of Identity Crisis, then. Thus far, I've found it to be one of the best stories DC's done in years. Hope issue 7 is as good.

[Eyendasky80]

Kristopher's got old news, Tim's back and Steph is dead. :weep:

[Eyendasky80]

Blue Beetle. He should be the Reed Richards of DC but instead he's often designated as "fat guy." That's just crap, it's the only problem I have with Kieth Giffen. It was a funny subplot, for maybe a year, but he should have cleaned it up quicker. Beetle was the fat kid of DC for two decades and I'm sure some writer who loved the idea is going to make him fat again. I don't mind Beetle being the comic relief as long as he's the smart half of him and Booster Gold. But being comic relief doesn't mean you lose your technical genius, in fact, many technical genius types double as comic relief in fiction. Chuck Dixon gave Beetle respect and then Giffen wrote another Justice League series. I like Giffen's league so I picked it up, hoping he wouldn't undue all the good work Dixon had done. I was pleased, he was very respectful of Beetle's new outlook on life, but I got a bad feeling about any future Formerly Known as the Justice League series. Identity crisis kind of screwed up the current FKJL team since Elongated Man isn't going to be very big on adventuring for a little while.


I quoted myself because I just read an article saying Giffen plans to ignore Identity Crisis and go ahead and use Sue Dibney for his mini.

[proditor]

Captain Britain. He started Excalliber after a long and superb run of Marvel UK books that had him face his inner demons, gain strength and confidence, and get a major upgrade on his powers. Shortly after Excaliber starts, he goes from mature and seasoned leader/hero to bumbling alcoholic and wife beater so that everyone would want Meggan to start banging Nightcrawler. Excaliber almost single handedly got me to loathe Nightcrawler, formerly one of my faves. I'd personally like to kick the guy who wrote that in the rubber parts until he cried Mommy for an hour.

EDIT: AND THEN, his redemption is to become king of otherworld and disappear completely from comics except when we need an origin for the new and COMPLETELY unused Captain Britain...bastards.

[Lightray]

As for Mantis, I've always found him the most interesting character in the New Gods pantheon.
Most of the New Gods are sadly underutilized. Their series tend not to sell well, I guess.

[Chuckg]

Spoiler is evidently alive, and the new Robin, since Tim Drake quit I guess.

Nope. Spoiler is dead as of the last act of 'War Games', and the new brooding, angsty, dark, and edgy Tim Drake is back in the Robin suit.

:nonp:

Yeah, that was about my reaction too.

[Chuckg]

OK, for a summary of War Games, I quote the MST3K'ing that I saw done of it over on CBR.com's Batman message board.


...so I was on another board, talking about comics, when the topic turned towards War Games.

This is something a poster typed up: the summarized War Games plot:

BATMAN: I'm a dick.
SPOILER: I want to be Robin since Tim isn't.
BATMAN: Okay. You're Robin.
SPOILER: Yay!
BATMAN: You violated my direct orders in order to save my life. You are no longer Robin.
SPOILER: >:|

SPOILER: I'll show him! I will!
BATGIRL: ...

GOTHAM CRIMELORDS: Thanks for showing up to our summit meeting which will no doubt go extremely smoothly.
PENGUIN: But of course.
DEADSHOT: You know, I can actually tell just by looking at this crowd who's about to die.
GOTHAM CRIMELORDS: ARRGH DOUBLECROSS
GUNS: Bang!

GOTHAM CITY: ...is it summer already? Better explode, then.

BATMAN: We will get out of this if everyone in Gotham does exactly what I say. Always. Forever. Including the cops and my allies. Yep, I'm still a total dick.
ORACLE, CATWOMAN: We noticed.
NIGHTWING: Dude, did you see what you got me out of in my book? You're my best friend.
TARANTULA: ...you're totally gay. Gay for him.
ROBIN: Well, mobsters attacked my high school, so it's back into the tights for me.
BATGIRL: ...

ORPHEUS: I'm a pretty cool character who'll eventually wind up the king of the Gotham underworld if everything goes according to plan.
SPOILER: I know! I started all this after reading the plan in Batman's computer, in that folder marked "WAR GAMES -- DO NOT EVER ACTUALLY USE".
ORPHEUS: ...wow, you're pretty stupid.
SPOILER: Yeah? Look who let f**kin' Black Mask sneak up on him.
ORPHEUS: What? Ack! [dies]
BLACK MASK: So... I'm a villain, you're a hero, it's DC, it's 2004... how about some torture?
SPOILER: ...sure, I guess.

BATGIRL: I make punchy.
CATWOMAN: I also make punchy but with a lot more erect nipplage. Thanks, Paul Gulacy!

BATMAN: This all seems familiar for some reason. I wonder...
ORACLE: Hey, Bruce, you know how I do most of the heavy intellectual lifting around here? Listen to me.
BATMAN: No time. I have to fall for a really obvious trick.
BLACK MASK: I am so Orpheus.
BATMAN: So you are.
BLACK MASK: What's the plan?
BATMAN: Well, first I tell all the cops what to do, then I herd all the gangs together in one place...

GOTHAM CITY POLICE DEPARTMENT: You know, we think that this time, Batman's finally gone too far. Let's arrest him.
HARVEY BULLOCK: ...I hate my life.

SURVIVING GOTHAM CRIMINALS: Let's erupt into violence!
BATMAN: I miss Grant Morrison.
BLACK MASK: You're all under my control now, criminals! I'm making a power grab!
SURVIVING GOTHAM CRIMINALS: ...um, okay.

SPOILER: ...must... survive... long enough... to fix everything...
BATMAN: Spoiler, I found you! Don't worry, I know about everything that happened and I made sure to make the situation as bad as I possibly could.
SPOILER: ...dude, seriously. F**k you. [comas]

HUSH: So, Masky, wanna know where the Batcave is?
BLACK MASK: But of course.
HUSH: It's in the clock tower in downtown Gotham.
BLACK MASK: That is not a cave in any way, shape, or form.
HUSH: "Batcave" is a metaphor.
BLACK MASK: ...well, okay then.

ORACLE: Bruce, you suck.
BATMAN: Busy right now.
ORACLE: Yeah? So am I. I've got supervillains attacking my base of operations.
BATMAN: Busy right now. Also, could you do something, you know, computery for me?
ORACLE: ...you're not even listening, are you?
BATMAN: Busy right now.
ORACLE: F**ker.
BLACK MASK: Well, I think I'll torture you now... on network news!
BATMAN: ...oh s**t.
BLACK MASK: Look, everyone, it's the Batcave! And this here's the Bat-Cripple!
BATMAN: RAR I am suicidal for some reason
BLACK MASK: Ow! My supervillain parts!
ORACLE: My god! For some reason Batman the expert martial artist is actually having a hard time with a lame-ass B-list villain that Catwoman killed in three panels! I'd better blow up the whole clock tower so I can play the victim and get Batman to save me!
BATMAN: Good plan.
ORACLE: I know.
BLACK MASK: I survived! No idea how.

ROBIN: I lied to the cops so they wouldn't arrest us. Now we're all persona non grata in Gotham.
NIGHTWING: I'm suicidal.
TARANTULA: I'm hot.
NIGHTWING'S MALE FANS: Nightwing, you dumbass.
BATGIRL: ...

BATMAN: What's that? Spoiler's dying? Better not tell anyone.
SPOILER: ...I was Robin, right?
BATMAN: Yeah, for like five minutes.
SPOILER: I could not hope for a better way to go out: as a meaningless death to top off a particularly idiotic crossover event. [dies]
BATMAN: I know, Stephanie. I know.

GOTHAM CITY PD: ...okay, screw this whole "Bat" thing. We're just going to do what we should've done in the first place and start f**king shooting anything we see with a mask.
BLACK MASK: Yeah, good luck with that.

BATMAN: We'll be here for the next gang war, and the one after that.
LESLIE THOMPKINS, ORACLE, CATWOMAN, SPOILER FANS: Bruce, you suck.

[red_eagle123]

As for the change in Blood, who knows why Johns did it? Perhaps he felt he couldn't write the original version as well as Wolfman and Perez did or perhaps he felt the original's story was so good that he wanted to let it rest and thus created a new version? Or perhaps he wanted to use Brother Blood and said "oh crud Winnick killed the original in The Outsiders, better try and do something interesting with the new guy." We'll never know really. :)

Actually, the Brother Blood from the Wolfman/Perez era couldn't have been brought back, at all. The one the Titans faced died, and his only direct heir was a daughter, thus ending the legacy aspect of the character.

The Brother Blood who appeared in Outsiders was, to my recollection, a complete phony, or someone trying to use the Church of Blood for his own diabolical means.

Same for the Brother Blood that appeared in Titans. Only in there Johns tied the origin of Raven (Mommy being raped by a summoned Trigon) to the Church of Blood, and this new kid claiming to be Brother Blood has no direct link to the Wolfman/Perez Blood, other than name.

As was mentioned elsewhere, Johns seems to have respect for what's already been written (Unlike some other writers), and didn't want to severely retcon things into order to bring back a Brother Blood from the past. So he made up a new one. /shrug I dunno, frankly the new story is interesting, what'll really be telling is whether the new character is used again, and used in a good storyline.

[Rapier]

Re; Angela Landsbury.

You think old Jessica Fletcher is bad, look at the MacMillans from MacMillan and Wife. He was the Police Commssioner and yet practically everyone they knew was murderer or a victim. What kind of people do they hang around with is what I wonder. In an interview, I recall Rock Hudson voicing his concerns that if the MacMillans didn't move, soon, the town they lived in would be depopulated. So they moved them the big city where it would take years to kill everyone.
MacMillan is a little before me, but that is pretty choice! TOO funny.

[Kristopher]

So, they killed Spoiler in a pointless and idiotic way. That's OK, because goodness knows that none of the comic companies need interesting character with lots of potential.

Morons.

[Chuckg]

There's a thread on CBR.com's "Rumbles" board (technically OT there, as the purpose of that board is to discuss "vs." fights with fictional characters according to our own loose set of scenario rules), that's spent the past several months having a group rant about certain undesirable trends and events in our funnybooks recently.

I called it "The Death Spiral of Comics (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=22449)".

[Hugh Neilson]

So, they killed Spoiler in a pointless and idiotic way. That's OK, because goodness knows that none of the comic companies need interesting character with lots of potential.

Morons.

Just quoted to keep the topic clear. Making all the characters functionally immortal removes considerable suspense. Assume two costumed members of the Bat Universe were slated to die in War Games. Orpheus and Spoiler both died as written, and you're in the room with the decision makers as the storyline is plotted out.

What two characters should die instead, and why are they better choices?

EDIT: This exercise should assume that the deaths of two characters is essential to telling a great story. I agree with comments that characters should not be killed of blithely, and other options should be pursued. However, for purposes of this exercise, assume the arc in question will be the highlight of comics in the 21st century, and will not work unless two characters die.

[Lord Liaden]

Actually, the Brother Blood from the Wolfman/Perez era couldn't have been brought back, at all. The one the Titans faced died, and his only direct heir was a daughter, thus ending the legacy aspect of the character.

If you don't mind, could you tell me more about when and how he died? My recollection was that he was still alive but amnesiac up until the birth of his daughter. I stopped following the Titans regularly shortly after that, so I'm not really that up on their later history.

(Not that dying ever kept a good comic villain from coming back.) ;)

[Vigil]

Re: Hugh Neilson's post.

Hugh, I think you put your finger on the problem, exactly, but the question shouldn't be "what 2 characters should die?". Rather ir should be, "why do 2 characters have to die to tell this story?" "Isn't there some other we can tell it and be effective?"

Up here in Cowtown, I co-own a pro wrestling promotion and in the business we call stuff like killing charaters "cheap heat" since it has an immediate, visceral impact but has absolutely no substance or impact otherwise. It's the comic book equivalent of wrestlers blading themselves.

So, what I see is a failure of DC's editors to provide direction and to lead effectively. You just know that stuff like this wouldn't have happened when Archie Goodwin was at the bat helm.

Vigil

[Hugh Neilson]

Hugh, I think you put your finger on the problem, exactly, but the question shouldn't be "what 2 characters should die?". Rather ir should be, "why do 2 characters have to die to tell this story?" "Isn't there some other we can tell it and be effective?"

I think that question is also valid. However, if we decide that certain characters are sacred cows - they cannot be killed - then some of the suspense goes out of reading about those characters. We have that with many of the big guns now. They certainly won't kill Superman or Batman, will they? So, sometimes, characters die.

I recall Thunderbird in New X-Men being developed for the sole purpose of killing him off in his second appearance (which was to be Giant Size X-Men #2, and became X-Men #94 and #95) with the intent of sending the message that these characters are not invulnerable or immortal - and creating an air of uncertainty.


Up here in Cowtown

You mean DOWN THERE in Cowtown, right? :)

[Chuckg]

> I think that question is also valid. However, if we decide that certain
> characters are sacred cows - they cannot be killed - then [snip]

Behold, the fallacy of the excluded middle.

He says 'characters should not be killed off if there's another way to tell a good story available', and you immediately jump to 'we can't have everybody be sacred cows'.

[Hugh Neilson]

He says 'characters should not be killed off if there's another way to tell a good story available', and you immediately jump to 'we can't have everybody be sacred cows'.

And both are true.

For greater clarity, however, I have edited my "challenge post". And I note no one has any preferred picks for characters who should have died. [Oddly, for all the attention paid to Spoiler, I've yet to see anyone comment - positively or negatively - on Orpheus getting his throat slit.]

Tangential thought: I wonder how the Dark Phoenix storyline would be viewed today if Jean Grey had lived, as the original plot intended. Without the sacrifice, would the story have lost some of its "Classic" status? Would people have been as upset by "Jean Grey gets her powers back" as they were by "Jean Grey was actually alive in stasis"?

[Vigil]

Hey Hugh,

I hadn't noticed that you're up there in Edmo-town. I was assuming that most of thee readership of the forums are American so it's pretty much all up from there, lol.


You mentioned the problem of certain characters being held as sacred cows and, somehow, that that's bad thing. I beg to differ. I think it's a good thing. Characters should be sacred cows. Killing them should be such a rarity as to become almost unthinkable. I think that, as readers, we invest in characters; hopes, dreams, aspirations. They're there as idealization and as heroic touchstones which tie us into the mythical. To allow their wholesale, or even reatil slaughter is incredibly cyncial and, I think, undercuts the entire premise of comics. That's one of the multitidinous flaws of the Authority, a complete failure to understand the fundamental premise of the genre. The death of a hero should be a monumentous, transformative event. I t should have impact and consequence. Sadly, over the past 2 decades (especially given the influence of Image) it's become trivial. Now, it seems, if someone doesn't die it's somehow not an event...or even a story. And I think that's what's truly tragic.

Vigil

[Lightray]

Tangential thought: I wonder how the Dark Phoenix storyline would be viewed today if Jean Grey had lived, as the original plot intended. Without the sacrifice, would the story have lost some of its "Classic" status? Would people have been as upset by "Jean Grey gets her powers back" as they were by "Jean Grey was actually alive in stasis"?
I would have been left wondering "Why in the Heck did they name her 'Phoenix' if she's not going to come back from the dead?"

[Doug McCrae]

That's one of the multitidinous flaws of the Authority, a complete failure to understand the fundamental premise of the genre. The death of a hero should be a monumentous, transformative event.So why is a 'monumentous' death the fundamental premise of the genre? The only characters I can think of that had meaningful deaths and stayed dead aren't really heroes at all - Uncle Ben and Bucky Barnes.

[megaplayboy]

So why is a 'monumentous' death the fundamental premise of the genre? The only characters I can think of that had meaningful deaths and stayed dead aren't really heroes at all - Uncle Ben and Bucky Barnes.
The Kree Captain Mar-Vell is still dead, though his son now bears his pseudonym. The original Thunderbird of X-Men 94 fame remains dead.

[Eyendasky80]

I'm not sure if we want to go in this direction because for comic fans, this is like politics and religion.

BUT: Why does it have to be so polar? Does every death have to be of epic event proportions? Is every death that isn't pointless? Can't we evaluate each story on its own merits regardless of body count?

My opinion (and I've heard this echoed by Pros or maybe I'm echoing them) is that comic audiences are maturing and the same escapist fantasy that pre-teens love regurgitated for the millionth time isn't going to thrill them for very long. So the industry is at a point where they must change or die. The industry has resisted this for years and we've seen a steady decline (dying) in comics as a medium. Now they're expirimenting with different kinds of stories, no longer catering to die-hard fans. Making their characters fallable and human. I believe that people who've made a strong attachment to the characters of these stories at a young age fear this change. There seems to be a contingent (usually a very vocal one) of people who, if they cannot recognize the story as something comfortable and familar, will cry foul no matter how well executed/written/drawn it is. It seems to me, they don't want to give it a chance.

I don't want to pigeon hole comics with the kind of mentality that limits them to children's entertainment. I believe they can run the entire spectrum of fiction, from iconic to human. Uplifting, tragic, funny, senseless, epic. I think comics can do all this and I'll lay my own personal favorites on the chopping block for a good story. It doesn't even have to be great and certainly not epic, just good. If I enjoy it, it was worth it.

The day comic books stop growing as a medium is the day I stop buying them. Because I've read all these stories before.

[red_eagle123]

So why is a 'monumentous' death the fundamental premise of the genre? The only characters I can think of that had meaningful deaths and stayed dead aren't really heroes at all - Uncle Ben and Bucky Barnes.


Barry Allen died, and damned but his death was momentous, and touching and he's still dead.

[red_eagle123]

If you don't mind, could you tell me more about when and how he died? My recollection was that he was still alive but amnesiac up until the birth of his daughter. I stopped following the Titans regularly shortly after that, so I'm not really that up on their later history.

(Not that dying ever kept a good comic villain from coming back.) ;)


You know Lord Liaden, you're right. I was going off my own faulty memory but you reminded me of what really happened. So I went and checked up on it at this great Titans news source (http://www.titanstower.com)

So it's entirely possible that the Brother Blood that appeared in Outsiders could potentially have been the original Brother Blood, having regained his memory. Of course that'd have to raise the question of what happened to Azrael, which DC wants to forget about I'm sure (Since they gave some other dude the name and a title for awhile).

[Chuckg]

The day comic books stop growing as a medium is the day I stop buying them. Because I've read all these stories before.

Have you read 'War Games'?

I have. The story was distinctly sub-par, the death in no way was required to tell the story, /and/ the legacy the character has been given post-death... in the character voice of Batman and several others... has basically added up to 'She got killed because she was stupid.'

This was not comics growing as a medium, this was simply the editors taking advantage of the first excuse to kill off a character inherited from the prior editorial staff that they (for reasons which were entirely beyond me) despised(*), and then to indulge themselves in pissing on the grave.

This is not 'growing as a medium'.





(*) The fact that the character was so despised by the editors isn't in much doubt, however -- interviews and such

[Eyendasky80]

Have you read 'War Games'?

I have. The story was distinctly sub-par, the death in no way was required to tell the story, /and/ the legacy the character has been given post-death... in the character voice of Batman and several others... has basically added up to 'She got killed because she was stupid.'

This was not comics growing as a medium, this was simply the editors taking advantage of the first excuse to kill off a character inherited from the prior editorial staff that they (for reasons which were entirely beyond me) despised(*), and then to indulge themselves in pissing on the grave.

This is not 'growing as a medium'.





(*) The fact that the character was so despised by the editors isn't in much doubt, however -- interviews and such

So you are judging the story on its merit as opposed to its including the death of a character. That's good. That's all I'm advocating. I didn't read War Games, I don't read Batman regularly, just the occassional trade.

Now, making a blanket statement that the killing of characters is dumb and shouldn't happen, that's what I won't do. You read the story, you didn't like it, okay.

[Chuckg]

SNow, making a blanket statement that the killing of characters is dumb and shouldn't happen, that's what I won't do. You read the story, you didn't like it, okay.

Nobody made the blanket statement that killing characters is wrong. No one.

What we did say is that killing characters in a stupid manner, for insufficient literary payoff, casually, etc, etc. is wrong.

[Eyendasky80]

Re: Hugh Neilson's post.

Hugh, I think you put your finger on the problem, exactly, but the question shouldn't be "what 2 characters should die?". Rather ir should be, "why do 2 characters have to die to tell this story?" "Isn't there some other we can tell it and be effective?"

Up here in Cowtown, I co-own a pro wrestling promotion and in the business we call stuff like killing charaters "cheap heat" since it has an immediate, visceral impact but has absolutely no substance or impact otherwise. It's the comic book equivalent of wrestlers blading themselves.

So, what I see is a failure of DC's editors to provide direction and to lead effectively. You just know that stuff like this wouldn't have happened when Archie Goodwin was at the bat helm.

Vigil

This was the post I was referring too. It calls the act of killing characters itself cheap, not calling cheap deaths to task.

I'm not advocating wholesale slaughter, I just think each death is unique and should be judged on its particular merits. Sometimes a senseless death is very effective at elevating the threat level of an antagonist.

[Chuckg]

Well, War Games would qualify as "cheap heat' by his definition, so I don't see it.

[Eyendasky80]

He said killing characters is cheap heat.

...we call stuff like killing charaters "cheap heat" since it has an immediate, visceral impact but has absolutely no substance or impact otherwise.

[Vigil]

To expand on my wrestling analogy and maybe make it a bit more clear, let's take the current bent of the WWE for example. Currently, on any given night you can catch 3H (who is a brilliant wrestler, by the way, and quite capable of working way beyond the level he's usually booked at - which is funny cause he books himself, but that's another discusssion) or mayve Michaels or Orton or any of the others engaging in matches which end up with both workers swimming in pools of blood. And what does that accomplish? Not much in the long run. What it does accomplish is ever dwindling ratings as the fans become desensitized to the gore and the mayhem. That's why it's called cheap heat. It works in the short term but does nothing to "build heat" (or "get you over" in the lingo) in the long run.

Contrast this with a great example of how wrestling used to be, about 20 years ago. back then, my good friend and one of the sport's true icons, Bad News Allen was enegaged in a feud with another great worker, Archie "The Stomper" Goldie. They'd built the intensity of the feud for over a year, going through regular matches, then no DQ matches then lumberjack and strap matches etc. culminating ultimately in a cage match in whch both workers drew blood (their own actually, as is ususally the protocol) and in which Archie ultimately got revenge on Allen for crippling Archie's "son" at the beginning of the program.

The thing is, does anyone remember any sort of impact whatsoever from tthe last time 3H juiced? No, proabably not. Does anyone even remmeber why he did it or what the "angle" was about? No, probably not. But the Allen/Gouldie match is rememebred and will live on in legend to anyone who has any sort of knowledge of the history of the business. One of the reasons (and there are many and this isn't exclusively the reason) that it will be remembered is that the blood shed in the cage match was the last step in a year long escalation. If they'd done that right off the bat as they do taody, where do you go? Nowhere...and fast.

By analaogy, if you have books like the Authroity where characters are being slaughtered, left and right, page after page in increasingly absurd numbers, what's th impact? Ultimately nothing except, maybe, to desensitize the reader. When it was done in Marshall Law, it was a critique or satire of the genre and the Iron Age. When it's done in Authority it's done with out any subtlety, any sense of irony or any impact. It's absolutely gratuitous and self indulgent. And it didn't have to be. The writer merely chose it to be so, most proabably because he wasn't good enough or smart enough or creative enough to do anything else.

Contrast that with the Death of Captain Marvel. This is a story which resonates with meaning and will for decades to come. His death was the final, tragic, act of a life that was redolant with impact, heroism and meaning. It showed his true quality as hero and, ultimately, the tragedy that sometimes heroes don't have glamourous, action packed, 4 color fates. Rather, it's how he copes with his end that revealed his inherent heroism.

You ask why it should be that death in comics should be momentous, as I said "by definition"? It's because "by definition" the founders of the superhero genre had a thorough, deep understanding of Greek mythology and of the mythic nature of the characters which they were creating. That understanding allowed them, at their best, to imbue meaning beyond the immediate or gratuitous to the deaths' of these iconic figures. They understood that the death of a mythical character had to be of mythic proportions or meaning to have any true impact. That's what they knew and that's what's reflected in death in comics, at the best of times. To deal with it otherwise is to trivialize and diminsh not only the death but the hero who pays that ultimate price.


Vigil

[Doug McCrae]

Barry Allen died, and damned but his death was momentous, and touching and he's still dead.Yeah, you're right.

[Doug McCrae]

Vigil, you make good points but superhero comics are unlike the heroic myths of Hercules, Balder, etc in one important respect - they never end. Since the beginning, superheroes have been more like Sexton Blake, Doc Savage or other pulp heroes. For as long as they make money, their stories must go on and on and on with no end in sight. You can't kill off all the X-Men, no matter how grand their deaths are (and I'm not sure they ought to be, given that the X-Men are a little closer to real life than the likes of Superman or Thor) cause the X-Men are big money makers.

I've always felt the best Superman stories are the ones where he dies. This story has actually been told a bunch of times in the Silver Age, as well as the Doomsday thing, but the SA ones were all imaginary stories. Though, to quote Alan Moore, "Aren't they all?"

[Hugh Neilson]

Hey Hugh,

I hadn't noticed that you're up there in Edmo-town. I was assuming that most of thee readership of the forums are American so it's pretty much all up from there, lol.

What can I possibly add? :)


You mentioned the problem of certain characters being held as sacred cows and, somehow, that that's bad thing. I beg to differ. I think it's a good thing. Characters should be sacred cows. Killing them should be such a rarity as to become almost unthinkable. I think that, as readers, we invest in characters; hopes, dreams, aspirations. They're there as idealization and as heroic touchstones which tie us into the mythical. To allow their wholesale, or even reatil slaughter is incredibly cyncial and, I think, undercuts the entire premise of comics. That's one of the multitidinous flaws of the Authority, a complete failure to understand the fundamental premise of the genre. The death of a hero should be a monumentous, transformative event. It should have impact and consequence. Sadly, over the past 2 decades (especially given the influence of Image) it's become trivial. Now, it seems, if someone doesn't die it's somehow not an event...or even a story. And I think that's what's truly tragic.

It's a balance, to be sure. I don't like the idea of "death of the week" any better than "heroes can never die".

Move too far one way, and some of the suspense is gone. Not all - we still get stressed over whether the hero will succeed - but when it's a beloved character's life on the line if Batman fails, we feel it more than when it's the Joker's next faceless victim.

Move too far the other and, well...don't get attached to the characters because they won't live out the year.

The same issue arises in RPG's. If death becomes an impossibility, some of the thrill is gone because some of the risk is gone. If it becomes commonplace, well, don't invest a lot of time in that character's backstory since chances are he'll be a statistic in a short time and you'll be rolling up another one.

[Vigil]

I know what you mean, RPG-wise, Hugh.

I sued to play CofC all the time and for somenone who likes to get attached to his charcters it was truly a recipe for unhappiness. If our entire party wasn't dead or irrevocably insane at the end of any adventure than our GM somehow felt that he'd failed. Now since those are pretty simple things to accomplish as GM in even the most non-lethal RPGs just think of how unthinkably easy it is in CofC. After a while it became Character or charcaters of the week and we never succeeded in finsihing a game since none of the characters who began irt were alive or sane at the end of it and the others didn't have the full story. Somehow, the GM felt this to be satisfying and "true to the genre". Maybe, but it was a shitty way to spend a Friday night.

I feel the same way about the spate of deaths in comics of the last 20 years or so. Why bother investing in characters as a writer or reader if the next teams gonna come in and wipe it all away. best to do it yourself, first. I think that's exactly the thinking that's operative in Avengers Disassembled (or maybe BNB just thought it was such a clever title he'd come up with that he simply had to kill off the team to justify it...I've heard of more trivial reasons.) Both the Authority and X Factor (the Milligan one) do this all the time. And does anyone care? When they finally killed Supes for real around 10 years ago it actually made the front pages and got real coverage. Has anyone else? That's the difference between death in iconic or trivial characters. Unfortunately, in Superman, it was handled in just about the worst way possible and the return was worse. I guess to me, the death of a major character in comics should be such a pivotal event that it should only be approached when absolutely nothing else will satisfy the story. Unfortuntealy the industry seems to have so little integrity and the fans have become so bloodthirsty and ADHD that nothing else gets a rise. And the rise is less and less each time.

Vigil

[Kristopher]

The Law of Diminishing Returns, Vigil.


As to the death of Spoiler, my objection was that it was a meaningless, gratuitous death, and a complete waste of an interesting character with a lot of potential.

And that was before I learned that she was killed in a fit of self-indulgence by a new creative team. Well, maybe "creative" is giving them too much credit.

Fucking morons. Asshats. :stupid: :joint: :idjit: :drink: :doi:


PS: I used to watch pro wrestling, but it seems it's nothing but cheap heat and gratuitous titilation now, expecially with McMahon running the only televised game in town.

[Vigil]

Hey Kristopher,

I agree completely, esp. with your comments on McMahon's dog and pony show. I do a live internet based broadcast www.wrestletalkradio.com every Sunday night from 6 - 8 pm MST. Obviously, pro wrestling is the focus but I have to tell you I find it painful towatch even a few minutes a week of Vince's self indulgent drek, esp. knowing how much better a lot of the stuff on the indy circuit is then the stuff Vinnie is shovelling. That's why we try to focus on up and coming workers and legends since I really don't feel obliged to give Vince any more free PR. Check us out if you get the chance. We're also the only internet based show tto have live caller interactivity where you can call us toll free on the net and chat with us or ask questions of our guests. This week we have taleneted indy worker Synn on and Marty janetty will appear eoither this week or next, depending on his road schedule. We also have Dr. Tom Prtitchard and Kamala coming up soon. So check it out.

Now that I've plugged my show I have to agree with your diminshing return comment also. That's a lot more succinctly put then my ramblings..I guess I did way too many psychedelics in the 80's to remmeber my philosophy degree, lol. It is true, however, that with death being rank in comics these days, it's utterly trivialized it and leeched it of any meaning whatsoever. It seems that it now takes gruesome, disturing and very graphic deaths or death on a vast scale to even get a rise. I think both options suck.

Vigil

[egyptian]

Ghost Rider-I think they kind of got off on the wrong tack with this guy. To me the soul of the character was that he was a guy possessed by a demon. Every night was a fight for control, one that he couldn't afford to lose. The bike, the hellfire, that's all secondary. The real battle is going on inside.

The New Gods-I guess nobody but Jack Kirby could dream big enough to make these characters work. These are characters that should be handled like a Wagnerian opera, not like conventional heroes. The end will come in Armaghetto...

The Marvel Family-You know, it must kind of bug Superman to know that there's someone out there who has all of his powers only better and no weaknesses. And a couple friends who also have all of his powers only better with no weaknesses. And they're all really likable.

Franklin Richards-You know, for 30-some odd years they teased that he was going to grow up and become the most powerful being out there, someone of such incalculable might that even Galactus was concerned about him. So why not show him grow up?

Doctor Fate-His helmet was once a god. Without it he is merely powerful, but with it he is nearly invincible. Perhaps only the Spectre can challenge his magic. But, if he dons the helmet he loses himself within Nabu. What kind of person would risk their soul every day just to help other people?

Too late at night to think of any others

[Hugh Neilson]

I used to play CofC all the time and for somenone who likes to get attached to his charcters it was truly a recipe for unhappiness.

I remember god old CoC! I recall a scenario which intro'd by stating it was intended for experienced characters, then went on to define that as a group consisting of no more than 50% new characters :whistle:

In defense of CoC, if characters had a high survival rate, it wouldn't be true to the genre. Plus, the character generation system was quick. I'd hate to play a Hero game where the mortality rate was that high!

Actually, I recall in high school (more years back than I care to remember) a friend summarizing the three games we regularly played.

Champions: If you play half decent, your characters will probably succeed and they will almost certainly survive.

D&D: If you play well, your characters will probably succeed. If you play half decent, they will probably survive.

Call of Cthulhu: If you play exceptionaly well, make noerrors, cover off all possible research and double-check everything three times, your characters have a shot at survival.

As I recall, he was always the guy saying "Let's do a little more research in the library".

[starblaze]

Ah, CofC. The only game where if you survive long enough you are eventually rewarded with insanity!

But in reality I grew to like the feel of Call of Cthulu. The big mistake with the game is that the Keepers are often to willing to toss out the big powerful sanity draining monsters like Cthulu and Nylarthotep. And the combat system is really deadly.

[Hugh Neilson]

Ah, CofC. The only game where if you survive long enough you are eventually rewarded with insanity!

But in reality I grew to like the feel of Call of Cthulu. The big mistake with the game is that the Keepers are often to willing to toss out the big powerful sanity draining monsters like Cthulu and Nylarthotep. And the combat system is really deadly.

The problem is that, if characters are able to learn the secrets of the universe, and defeat the Elder Gods consistently, the game falls out of its genre. It needs to be defeatist if it's going to work. And that's contrary to GamerThink!

As for combat, I used to describe the opposition as "Weak opponents only have a couple of stats in excess of human maximums". I liked the Cthulhu stats - stats in the w/u, but the narrative discusses how many he can get at a time, not how mcuh damage he'll do.

[Vigil]

Our eventual solution to the CofC dilema was to convert the entire thing to Champions or, more properly, Jusitce Inc. We created analogues of the insanity inducing presence of Cthulhoid types and tried to recreate the feel as best we could and went from there. It was a hybrid, to be sure, but it was hybrid which worked and which was quite playable. The villains were still significantly more powerful but characters still had a chance and could buy skills like resistance and even limited forms of power defense (makes more sense than Ego Defense given the basis of the Cthulhoid types powers) to keep from going wing ding every time a zombie walks in. I liked the original CofC as a concept. As an actual game, however, I think it may have been abit too true to its sources.

[Kristopher]

I said this before about comics, but it applies here too. Sometimes, what works in the source material does not make for a good game.

I've never bothered to play CofC because of the hardwired hopelessness. The real world has enough hopelessness, I don't need it in my hobbies. There's also the issue of wondering why I'd put any real work into a player character that I know is going to die, and probably soon. CofC shares this flaw with Paranoia.

[Moody Loner]

Smilar experience with CoC here. If I need hopelessness and futility, I'll write "D20 Six O'Clock News".

Or sit in the basement and beat myself over the head with a two-by-four.

Both of which were more fun than the "Watch me create interesting, complex NPC madmen for the GM" that was my CoC experience.

And I won't even start about my wife's game-winning double critical hit getting retconned because actually managing to be competent would derail the campaign, because that was bad GMing.

[Lightray]

Like most games, CoC sucks if it's not run well, rules notwithstanding.

I've still fond memories of one game where a couple investigators went mad as loons only from some byakee -- and spent the rest of the game session occasionally hooting at us from the table they were playing cards at. Or sneaking up to our table and just staring at us.

The rest of us found the cave wherein was the problem, and one by one gave in to some temptation and got turned into ghouls. They all slunk under the table and gibbered at each other.

By the time I died 20 minutes later-- eaten alive by my "colleagues" -- the GM and I were alone at the table, with hands occasionally coming up from below to paw at our dice or character sheets. Actually, I think one of the GM's NPC character sheets got eaten (leading to the same fate for my faithful sidekick).

Good times. :)

[Kristopher]

Different tastes, I guess.

[Vigil]

To me, CofC is one of those games where the concept, the theory far outshines the reality. I remeber 20+ years back thinking, "wow, it would be cool to play an occult investigator who uses nothing but his knowledge of "the enemy" to squeak out of the closest calls. " or somesuch.

Unfortunately, the calls weren't close. They were delivered right to my door promptly and on time by Migo Express and the package always included a heapin' helpin' of insanity and death.

I'm not really sure how CofC could even be fun for a GM considering how dispiriting the whole thing is. It was only when we converted the system to JI that there was even any vague sense of balance. If you look at it, a lot of CofC PCs would be incompetent normals by Champs standards and just think of what fun a campaign built around those types would be. When Aunt May is your muscle, not your hostage, you're screwed.

Vigil

[Vigil]

I guess this question could be a sub-question of this topic. Given that we've all played a lot of systems, I'm sure, which have had the most potential, which were the most frustrating ansd which were the most fun?

I recall enjoying the Awful Green Things from Outer Space quite a lot and Demon Lord and Titan absolutely ocked, whereas Illuminati NWO and Armageddon (I think it was called, essentially nuclear Risk set in the Mediterranean region) were true pigs that weren't never goin' be silk purses.

[Rapier]

I guess this question could be a sub-question of this topic. Given that we've all played a lot of systems, I'm sure, which have had the most potential, which were the most frustrating ansd which were the most fun?
Believe it or not, I've not really played that many RPGs. I spent my youth mostly with AD&D (up through high school) and my adulthood (uni and beyond) with Hero.

In the middle there I played some:

- Dr Who (this had such potential, but I was too young. I don't recall much about the system other than we didn't really understand it, but the setting...CMON! Its DOCTOR WHO!)
- MSH (I have no idea which version or anythhing, but it was fun, just not really fond of the system itself)
- TMNT (ack, that was bad)
- SFB (too rules heavy)
- Toon (fun, but only really good as a 1 shot)
- Paranoia (HATED IT)
- Star Wars (was fun, but the GM was not so good so this died before it ever really got going...but the setting, of course, RoXXoReD!)
- ShadowRun (I really like ShadowRun, I would even considering running/playing that again for the CyberPunky stuff)
- CyberPunk (eh, wasn't so fond of the game)
- Jorune (only limped through 1 game)
- GURPS (couple games that ran concurrently with the Champions...and Champions pwned GURPS)
- RoleMaster (I did like RoleMaster, it was probably what actually triggered my out-and-out dislike (which had been only grumblings until this point) of AD&D)
- Vampire/Werewolf (I don't like LARP, the game system sucks (which is actually kind of a rule with LARP since you can't really run around with lots of books and dice) and there is a rather large majority IME of LARPers that are REALLY, REALLY creepy. When not actually LARPing WW, the game system just SUCKS)

And of course there was a whole bunch of board games, card games, war games and miniature games that we played too.

Thats about all I can think of. Hey, actually I guess I have played a number of RPGs!!

[Vigil]

I remmebr playing and enjoyint the very first iteration of Dand D back in the mid 70's. Unfrtunately the experience was soon destroyed by a novice GM (weren't they all back the?) who thought the best thing in the world was to invent clever but inescapable death traps ("Isn't that brilliant?! There are dragons behind all the doors!" apparently the point was to demonstrate that rtue heroism is demonstrated in how you face certain death or soemsuch twaddle).

Be that as it may, after ward we moved on the Chivalry and Sorcery in HS. I recall that C&S had potential to be one of the greatest and most interesting RPGs ever, if only it didn't take itself so deathly seriously. They started with a great idea and quickly killed it by trying to be too "realistic" about their system (it's magick not magic seemed to be the philosophy). Somewhere around that same time we began experimenting with the Hero system. Ah, the wonder and the joy of one's first experience with Champions. After that we flirted with DCH only to find that the system was a really expensive date that wouldn't put out. Then there were tons of lesser systems and a period of playing lots of war games (most of which were pigs to one degree or another but Squad Leader was probably the worst) before ultimately gravitating back to Champions and JI.

Vigil

[assault]

Like most games, CoC sucks if it's not run well, rules notwithstanding.
...
By the time I died 20 minutes later-- eaten alive by my "colleagues" -- the GM and I were alone at the table, with hands occasionally coming up from below to paw at our dice or character sheets. Actually, I think one of the GM's NPC character sheets got eaten (leading to the same fate for my faithful sidekick).


CoC is vulnerable to heavy handed GMing. With a lighter touch, it's fine.

It also makes a fine semi-LARP. Lightray's description indicates that.

My favourite CoC game was played in a rundown old farmhouse in the hills, on a foggy night. That was where we _played_ it. The setting in the _game_ was a rundown old mansion in the hills, on a foggy night...

None of us died or went insane.

The plot was broadly lifted from Robert E Howard's "Dig Me No Grave".

[st barbara]

My vote would go to "The Global Guardians". Every time I see them they are either underpowered, have some members turn evil or get (temporarily) killed off. I think that they could make a great comic ! Do they have a token Yank by the way ?

[nexus]

Call of Cthullu...

I've played it once or twice. I can see why some people might like it, but I didn't. Complete doom and insanity isn't really my idea of a good time. :)

Paranoia always felt different because you aren't supposed to take it seriously. Its a black comedy. The goal of the game is to see how long it takes you to go threw your clones, your "companions" clones and how spectacularly you can go out.

[robbneu]

It's nice to see all the Alpha Flight love on here. All this time I thought I was one of the very few people who counted Alpha Flight as one of my favorites (who have spent there *entire* careers in the "superhero ghetto"). I can't say that I blame Byrne for any horrible slight against them, but writer after writer, they seem to exist solely for being tortured. Sometimes that made for some really great stories... other times you just felt like the team couldn't get a break, no matter what they did. Kind of like Daredevil in the 80s.

It's not hard to draw up a list of underused characters, though. Look at Iceman in the X-Men. I haven't read any of the X-Books in years, but most of the time, Bobby Drake exists only as scenary. I mentioned The Question in another thread. The Rachel Summer's version of Pheonix was a really neat idea that was drained of anything useful or interesting. I don't even know what she's doing or if she even exists any more. I also used to really like the Elementals, but they seem doomed to a glut of "mature only" sex issues and only being published every two years.

Robb

[Kristopher]

This always draws an assortments of groans, giggles, and vague threats, but what the heck.

I've always thought that Domino had a lot more potential than the Marvel crew ever realized. I think she's been mistreated, misused, and underused.

And there's always something to be said for a character who keeps putting holes in Deadpool.

[csyphrett]

I guess the Blue Beetle should go on the list, but wait he's dead.
CES

[Eyendasky80]

I guess the Blue Beetle should go on the list, but wait he's dead.
CES

He is on the list, does that qualify as Irony?

[csyphrett]

I missed his addition, so I guess it qualifies as irony and a bit of bitterness.
CES

[megaplayboy]

Whom do I have to kill/sex-up to get the Ultimates version of the Vision revived and into a series?

[Vorsch]

The Ulimate vision probablly "owns" all computers in the world.

even the ones not connected, or military.

ie a plot device

[lemming]

Whom do I have to kill/sex-up to get the Ultimates version of the Vision revived and into a series?
They moved that out of that "What If?" did they?

[Mike W]

Well, Iron Man and Dr. Strange have always gotten shafted for writers(or almost always), but they've gotten so much air time that it is hard to call them underrated or underused.

I do think that Photon should have gotten more air time. They keep trying to push Shulkie as the lead Marvel Heroine and keep giving her books, but outside of Titania there is nothing to build around. I liked the most recent She Hulk book(too bad they killed it after a year) and I do like the character, but they just can't seem to figure out how to push her as a character.

[Enforcer84]

Thundra. She's a bit character to be sure, but I always liked her and she could be turned into something cool.

[McCoy]

Has anyone mentioned Callisto yet? All the Morlocks are underused, but Callisto is the most agregeously overlooked. She's been around over 20 years, she's the leader of the Mutant Morlocks so she must be a mutant, but I don't have the slightest idea what her powers are. Does anyone? Including any writer who ever scripted her?

[nexus]

Has anyone mentioned Callisto yet? All the Morlocks are underused, but Callisto is the most agregeously overlooked. She's been around over 20 years, she's the leader of the Mutant Morlocks so she must be a mutant, but I don't have the slightest idea what her powers are. Does anyone? Including any writer who ever scripted her?

I vaguely recall enchanced senses and reflexes....vaguely.

[Lightray]

I vaguely recall enchanced senses and reflexes....vaguely.
That was pretty much it for a long while (plus some tracking scent thing I vaguely recall). Then, Clairemont got a hold of her.

Before he had Masque remake Callisto into a glam beauty model (sans eyepatch). Now, Masque has remade Callisto into her old self (incl. eyepatch) -- but with bunches of tentacles instead of arms.

And she likes it.

And she was all Clairemont-ish lezbionic toward the end of X-treme X-Men. It was kind of gay X-women tentacle porn, in a hot tub from what little memory is leaking through...

She's in eXcalibur now, or she was. For some reason having tentacles for arms had made her uber-1337, in some Clairemont-ish way. Uber-knife thrower, and knife-catcher. Uber-reflexes, probably the focused totality of her psionic power.

Whatever.

Besides which, although she was the leader of the mutant Morlocks, it's been years since that. All the Morlocks were dead, then not-dead, then Colossus' older brother took them away somewhere, then they were back, then killed again I think, then Marrow was their leader, then forgotten again, last I recall Masque was in charge of the remainder.

I don't think it's possible for me to underrate Callisto and the Morlocks; I rate them pretty much as low as is possible.

[McCoy]

I vaguely recall enchanced senses and reflexes....vaguely.
One of the Handbooks said she had an energy blast from her covered eye, but later said that writeup was Erg's, not Callisto's. In my game world she's Sabertooth's grandaughter, with powers simular to Wolverine (high DEX, extra endurance STR beyond a normal Push, enhanced senses, healing factor), only less so.

[McCoy]

Now, Masque has remade Callisto into her old self (incl. eyepatch) -- but with bunches of tentacles instead of arms.

And she likes it.

And she was all Clairemont-ish lezbionic toward the end of X-treme X-Men. It was kind of gay X-women tentacle porn, in a hot tub from what little memory is leaking through...

She's in eXcalibur now, or she was. For some reason having tentacles for arms had made her uber-1337, in some Clairemont-ish way. Uber-knife thrower, and knife-catcher. Uber-reflexes, probably the focused totality of her psionic power.
The Clairemont-ish lezbionic element was part of the original character. She was based on a, let's be kind and say bisexual, character in Barbarella.

[Black Omega]

I was collecting X-men when Callisto appeared first, and never caught this. but now that you mention it I can see the connection right away. Doh!

And though he's already been mentioned, Mon-El is up there for most powerful, least used.

And as a confirmed martial arts fan boy, Lady Shiva is also on my worst used list. A martial arts plot device brought in and to often used to make the main character look tough at her expense. Her appearances in The Question were probably her best.

[Vigil]

Didn't Shiva whup the Questions hiney on an alarmingly reguar basis?

I absolutely agree with your inclusion of Mon El, also. I've alwaysfelt that he was the most underrated, overlooked, if not outright ignored Legionaire of all. Here he is, more powerful than Superboy or Supergirl (maybe evn put together) and he does nothing but bit parts or get aced to show how powerful the major threats are. Hell, most of the time, Ultra Boy is shown as being as, if not more, powerful. It makes no damn sense. I don't know whether the LSH scribes couldn't figure out what to do with him or whether it was editorial policy or personal preference but I always found it frustraing to see such a great character absolutely wasted. hell, if I were the lSH scribe I'd have him front and center in every book.

[McCoy]

I absolutely agree with your inclusion of Mon El, also. I've alwaysfelt that he was the most underrated, overlooked, if not outright ignored Legionaire of all. Here he is, more powerful than Superboy or Supergirl (maybe evn put together) and he does nothing but bit parts or get aced to show how powerful the major threats are. Hell, most of the time, Ultra Boy is shown as being as, if not more, powerful. It makes no damn sense. I don't know whether the LSH scribes couldn't figure out what to do with him or whether it was editorial policy or personal preference but I always found it frustraing to see such a great character absolutely wasted. hell, if I were the lSH scribe I'd have him front and center in every book.
All of Superboy's powers, none of his weaknesses, and over a thousnad years spent observing humanity. I am amazed that that was never touched on. "This reminds me of something that I saw in the 26th, no, the 27th century. What we need to do is . . .."

[Vigil]

Right on, McCoy.

The only tiem mon cam anywhere near his potential was when he duked it out with The Tim Trapper is LSH 50, I believe it was. Great story, dealing with the secret conspiracy within the LSH to kill the TT. Of course the end results of Mon's efforts were for him to be rendered comatose for the rest of the run and die off panel. Great, just great. That's a real fitting end to the guy who almost singlehandedly stopped the TT.

His next appearance was issue 4 of the Giffen debalce...er, I mean, run. Here, old TT has taken up residence in Mon's invulnerable form as a way of staying safe until he can reconstitute his power. Mon realizes what he's up to and trashes him in the final showdown, sacrificing himself and the ehtire continuum to stop TT. A good story and maybe the truest depiction of mon's potential but again, to what end? He shows up and gets erased from history never to appear in that form again.

Drives me crazy.

From there it just got worse and worse and worse.

Vigil

[Hugh Neilson]

I absolutely agree with your inclusion of Mon El, also. I've alwaysfelt that he was the most underrated, overlooked, if not outright ignored Legionaire of all. Here he is, more powerful than Superboy or Supergirl (maybe evn put together) and he does nothing but bit parts or get aced to show how powerful the major threats are.

This was the Martion Manhunter dilemma which eventually lead to him being written out in early-'70's (late '60's?) JLA. Here we have a guy who can do anything Superman can, and more. But we want Supes on the cover to sell books, which makes MM just redundant. So he appears less and less until he gets written out.

[Nucleon]

Of all the charcters you've read and enjoyed, which one is it that you thought was underutilized or underrated? Which character did you feel never got their due? And why? Just curious.

I've got a few.

In Marvel, where they seriously lack in stronf female types, there is Thundra, the chain-wielder and mate of Arkon. I would make an Avenger out of her.

Then there is these Buckys; the one we all know and love still isn't in any future Avengers Incarnations despite MC2's Avenger Next and the recent New Avengers. That's lame. But there is also the other one, Ricki Barnes from the "Heroes Reborn" debacle, who had some spunk. Speaking of Buckys, Nomad is also underused; his last incarnation was the tricky assassin in Thunderbolts -can't remember the name right now.

Finally, in Marvel, there are the whole Inhumans who are also underused.

In DC, I can't get enough of Cap Marvel (Shazam!). Here is a hero that got no chances in the Iron Age, but is now a marvelous concept with the recent Golden-Age fascination. And what a nice, classic costume he's got.

[Eyendasky80]

...Nomad is also underused; his last incarnation was the tricky assassin in Thunderbolts -can't remember the name right now...

The Scourge

[Vigil]

I first saw MM when I picked up JLA 200. I wasn't much of a DC reader at that time but the character instantly blew me away becoming my fave along with Dr. Fate and Mon El. I thought, "Who is this guy? He's like Superman, but way cooler." And he is. Sadlt, because of the need to keep Superman as the top dog, most powerful guy in DC MM's been relegated to cheerleader and spiritual advisor.

I also loved the Inhumans, esp. Gorgon and Black Bolt. I couldn't get enough of them and loved all of their appearances (until the mopey,self indulgent, navel gazing mini series they did a while ago). Not only are they great characters but they have some of the best designed costumes ever.

Which may be the basis for another poll...

[st barbara]

For a long time I would have said that J'onn J'onzz (The Martian Manhunter) was least used, mainly because he seemed to be notheing more than a Superman copy with a couple of extra powers (shapeshift and stretching) but the moree reecent incarnations, making him more of a psionic, sem to have reinvented the character !

[McCoy]

For a long time I would have said that J'onn J'onzz (The Martian Manhunter) was least used, mainly because he seemed to be notheing more than a Superman copy with a couple of extra powers (shapeshift and stretching) but the moree reecent incarnations, making him more of a psionic, sem to have reinvented the character !
Reinvented? Or returned to his roots?

IIRC J'onn was accidently teleported to Earth. He learned English in one panel by reading his accidental abductor's mind. His superior Martin brain (Martians, being an older race than humans, are "more evolved") could control light waves by force of will, alloing him to project the illusion of a normal Earthman's apperence or turn invisible. I don't recall flight or life support in the early stories, just an telepathic detective who could look like anyone, or turn invisible. Fire, a "substance" that did not exist on Mars, affected him the way kryptonite did Superman, weakening him from accross the room.

But writer to writer, decade to decade, the character morphed. He kept the invisibility, but the "light-wave control" illusions turned into shapeshifting, then added streching, then turned into enough control over his body to become desolid. Back before the yellow sun thing, Kryptonians' powers came from being more evolved than humans, so if both Kryptonians and Martians are more evolved than humans, should they not have simular powers? (Except, possibly, heat vision. I don't recall ever seeing J'onn use heat vision. Anyone?) At this point I begain wondering why he couldn't just fly back to Mars. This was later resolved with the White Martians / Green Martians plotline.

So I think what we have here is five decades of spending expierence points with no reguard to original character concept.

[Vigil]

Hey McCoy,

Nice run down of Jonn's evolution. I was under the impression that when he first showed up he had pretty much all of his current powers. A lot of silver age characters tended to be that way, just hodge podges of powers and visuals. You ask about heat vision...and I know the answer to this one, lol. Jonn used heat vision ("Martian vision") against Firestorm in JLA #200. Sometimes it seems to be defined as some form of force blast but I believe that here it was defined as heat (sound to me like someone's got Variable SFX).

Vigil

[Enforcer84]

Martian Vision.

[assault]

In DC, I can't get enough of Cap Marvel (Shazam!). Here is a hero that got no chances in the Iron Age,

I think he would be just fine in the Iron Age with the right writer. He's completely incorruptable, and incredibly powerful. In short, he's the perfect watchdog for the Authority types.

Back in DC's old Action Comics Weekly series, there was an interesting Shazam story where he got involved with some Neo-Nazi types. It worked quite well. That version of the character could quite easily have coped with stuff like that more frequently.

On the Martian Manhunter: he originally seems to have been something like a Silver Age version of the Spectre, rather than a superhero. That is, he was a detective who secretly possessed powers, rather than someone overt like Superman.

His grab bag of powers makes more sense in that context, IMHO. Or at least he's no worse than the Spectre, who nobody complains about.

[CBikle]

Always thought that both Captain Comet and the Secret Society Of Super-Villains were underused.

[starblaze]

Vigil, you make good points but superhero comics are unlike the heroic myths of Hercules, Balder, etc in one important respect - they never end. Since the beginning, superheroes have been more like Sexton Blake, Doc Savage or other pulp heroes. For as long as they make money, their stories must go on and on and on with no end in sight. You can't kill off all the X-Men, no matter how grand their deaths are (and I'm not sure they ought to be, given that the X-Men are a little closer to real life than the likes of Superman or Thor) cause the X-Men are big money makers.

I've always felt the best Superman stories are the ones where he dies. This story has actually been told a bunch of times in the Silver Age, as well as the Doomsday thing, but the SA ones were all imaginary stories. Though, to quote Alan Moore, "Aren't they all?"

"Whatever happened to the Man of Tommorrow?" Was one of the best SuperMan stories I read.

[Vigil]

I agree, Starblaze. In fact, I think "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tommorrow" was also the best Superman story of the silver/bronze age. It captured all the great elements of silver age Superman stories but created a powerful bronze age sense of pathos unlike anything ever before in Supes. That was an incredible accomplishment for the time, esp. given the fact that Supes, by that time, had become almost completely a carricature. For years he'd been invulnerable and vastly more powerful than everyone else in the DCU. There were no challenges, let alone threats. His stories had degenerated to the point of being quaint morality tales or capers. And then, in two issues, Moore comes in and completely turns the whole mythos on its head. Amazing work from the greatest writer to ever work in the medium.

Vigil

[Iuz the Evil]

I miss the Elementals.

Just thought I'd say it... that was a crazy fun read for the first twenty or so issues. Went downhill after Willingham stopped regularly participating in a major way though.

Ah well, it was fun when it lasted. And I had a really fun (albeit short-lived) Champions campaign based on them.

[Lightray]

Always thought that both Captain Comet and the Secret Society Of Super-Villains were underused.
Captain Comet showed up in the recent JSA Elseworlds ("Golden Age"), to my complete surprise. I had no idea who he was until they finally mentioned his name.

Alas, the story wasn't that good, so I'd recommend giving it a pass, despite my love for most things JSA.

[Vigil]

The first 5 issue arc of SSOSV was absolutely classic. IMHO one of the best story premises of the 70's and, I think, Golden Age carried that torch very well. I thought it captured a good balance of classic JSA with modern day storytelling.

As for costumes, the SSOSV had some classics: Captain Comet (who'da thought all those colors could work together?), Sinestro, Manhunter and Mantis. Cool stuff.

Vigil

[Hyper-Man]

I still miss Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew!

[Dr. Anomaly]

I still miss Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew!
That's Captain Carrot and his Amazing Zoo Crew! :tsk:

[Hyper-Man]

That's Captain Carrot and his Amazing Zoo Crew! :tsk:
Oops!
:winkgrin:
Anyway, who can beat a team whose speedster is a Turtle!

HM

[assault]

Captain Comet showed up in the recent JSA Elseworlds ("Golden Age"), to my complete surprise. I had no idea who he was until they finally mentioned his name.

Alas, the story wasn't that good, so I'd recommend giving it a pass, despite my love for most things JSA.

Well, I liked it and thoroughly recommend it... I'm going to leave a spoiler space before the reason why.

I spotted Captain Comet first off.

*** spoiler space ***



























































It had the Ultra-Humanite and Hitler's Brain... What's there not to like?

[Agent X]

Oops!
:winkgrin:
Anyway, who can beat a team whose speedster is a Turtle!

HM Don't forget... Pig Iron!

[Enforcer84]

What exactly are Captain Comet's abilities?
I seem to recall him being Super Smart, Strong, tough, and can fly. Is that true? Is that all?

[Vigil]

According to his origin, Comet's a "mutant" born 100, 000 years ahead of his time...which is way cooler than your standard mutant origin. As such he is, truly, the Man of Tommorrow. He has greatly enhanced intellect and physical toughness (limited invulnerability but he always got clobbered by Grodd or Blockbuster) as well as superstrength (I'd put him around STR 60) and telepathy, some telekinesis and a high EGO. Plus he has a few high tech gadgets like the "Cometeer" which is a high tech space rocket and his blaster which he never seems to use. He was another baroque Silver Age character who, I believe, appeared shortly before Jonn Jonnz.

Vigil

[Dr. Anomaly]

He was another baroque Silver Age character who, I believe, appeared shortly before Jonn Jonnz.
Captian Comet debuted in June 1951 and Jonn Jonnz in November 1955, so the Captain beat Jonn by a bit more than four years. :)

[CBikle]

Origin of Captain Comet

[Vigil]

Great page! It's interesting, though, how different the original costume design is from the more weel known one he wore in the SSOSV.

[CBikle]

I guess they were trying to update his costume and felt that 1970's fashions were less silly.

Guess we're lucky he didn't have an afro, wide lapels and bellbottoms.

Surprisingly, he still had his sidearm which was unusual to see in those post-Viet Nam days.

[CBikle]

It'd be nice to see this series released in TPB form (maybe even with the Freedom Fighters crossover cliffhanger ending which was never resolved because both books were cancelled as part of the "DC Implosion".

[Hugh Neilson]

It'd be nice to see this series released in TPB form (maybe even with the Freedom Fighters crossover cliffhanger ending which was never resolved because both books were cancelled as part of the "DC Implosion".

Do you mean the JSA cliffhanger? SSoSV #15 ended as they took out a couple of the weaker JSA members. The stronger members ultimately defeated them (off-panel) which they noted when they next appeared in JLA.

[Enforcer84]

Blue Shield, I was just reminded of him in my Marvel Second Stringers thread.

[JmOz]

Blue Beetle. He should be the Reed Richards of DC but instead he's often designated as "fat guy." That's just crap, it's the only problem I have with Kieth Giffen. It was a funny subplot, for maybe a year, but he should have cleaned it up quicker. Beetle was the fat kid of DC for two decades and I'm sure some writer who loved the idea is going to make him fat again. I don't mind Beetle being the comic relief as long as he's the smart half of him and Booster Gold. But being comic relief doesn't mean you lose your technical genius, in fact, many technical genius types double as comic relief in fiction. Chuck Dixon gave Beetle respect and then Giffen wrote another Justice League series. I like Giffen's league so I picked it up, hoping he wouldn't undue all the good work Dixon had done. I was pleased, he was very respectful of Beetle's new outlook on life, but I got a bad feeling about any future Formerly Known as the Justice League series. Identity crisis kind of screwed up the current FKJL team since Elongated Man isn't going to be very big on adventuring for a little while.

Me and a friend were talking about Beetle and his recent demice (and inevertable return to life). One idea we had was that he gets restored via the Blue Beetle (The artifact), when he is restored he becomes bulletproof, superstrong, can fly. These powers would be at the low end of the spectrom for DC. Then you have a character combining Batman like skills and superman like powers, kind of make him an amagram of the two, but at a lesser power level...

[Enforcer84]

That'd be cool.

[freakboy6117]

blue beetle became my favorite DC character batman without the angst brave noble genius but still fun loving and a little off the wall. he chose not to get have super powers chose to fight crime only with his natural abilities liek gaining mystical powers would make him less than he was notr more.

i was very sad when they killed him but it was a good death better than those in identity crisis. even though im a hueg ted kord fan i hope he stays dead.

the essence of his character was that he was a normal guy who chose to do the right thing without super powers. he shouln't come back from the dead he should be replaced by a new blue beetle another young man who hones his body and his mind to do good a novice hero learning his way.

[csyphrett]

I believe that Sasha Bordeuax is going to be the new Blue Beetle.
CES

[Enforcer84]

I believe that Sasha Bordeuax is going to be the new Blue Beetle.
CES
Who?

[freakboy6117]

sasha bordeux was bruce wayne's body guard during the bruce wayne murderer/fugative saga when she discovered hsi secret bruce ws forced to bring her into the cave. she was arrested as an accomplise to bruce wayne for the murder of vespa fairchild(?) and whilst in prison and liable to go to jail for the murder she was recruited by the covert agency checkmate.

but she'd be a lousy beetle she could easily become a DC equivilent to blackwidow but the blue beetle identity doesn't lend its self to martial arts spy capers.

[Enforcer84]

Is she the one that was beating on that other woman agent then?

[Hawksmoor]

That said the Batman is big on redemption (Plastic Man Huntress etc) so he might take it on himself to resurrect the Blue Beatle motif and hand if off to someone like this.

Not that I *know* anything, just speculating.

Hawksmoor

[starblaze]

Excuse me, but just when did the Blue Beetle (Ted Cord) die?
And how?

[Kristopher]

Blue Shield, I was just reminded of him in my Marvel Second Stringers thread.


Didn't he team up with Blue Cross for a while?

[csyphrett]

Excuse me, but just when did the Blue Beetle (Ted Cord) die?
And how?

He was shot in the head by Max Lord in Countdown to Infinite Crisis.
CES

[csyphrett]

Didn't he team up with Blue Cross for a while?
Ha ha

[freakboy6117]

track it down its a really great comic 80 pages and only a buck

[freakboy6117]

yeah sashas max lords knight

[Kitsune]

I kinda liked Quasar.... I loved the bit in his own book where he tried to hide his identity by wearing a pair of glasses and all the other heros were feeling embaresed for him.

[Enforcer84]

and who can't feel sympathy for a superhero who's first name is Wendell?