Fourth Age Hero

[Savinien]

I've been contemplating what sort of setting I'd create for running Fantasy Hero. A long time ago, I thought a MERP to Hero conversion would be cool, but I'm known as a lazy cuss (because I am of course!). Anyway, I was thinking a cool setteing would be Middle Earth a century or so into the Fourth Age.

I've glossed over Encyclopedia Arda and the RotK glossary.

Anyone have any thoughts to add?

At this stage, I'm figuring the Northern Ithillian as a good spot to start a game.

A particular sticking point is the magic of Middle Earth. A cohort of mine has been fairly strong in his belief that only the Istari and similar beings are capable of magic at all. I disagreed, citing the ICE MERP books and their uses of magic as well as a quote from the movie, "A Wizard is never late. He always arrives precisely when he meanst to." From that statement, one would tend to think that other Wizards exist in Middle Earth.

Anyway, I open the topic to discussion.

[Mark Taylor]

Your acquaintance is correct in that in Middle Earth it seems to be only the Istari and others of the Maia, such as Sauron, who wield the traditional "spells 'n' fireballs" kind of wizardly magic we have come to expect from every Fantasy RPG, and judging by Gandalf's sparing use of his spells it is extremely draining even for them. The Maia (including the Istari) are not human, nor are they of any other mortal race. They walked the Earth even before the Elves. When Gandalf refers to other Wizards he is talking about the other Istari.

It is plain that that is not the only kind of magic in Middle Earth, though.

Judging by references in both The Hobbit and LOTR the Elves have a magic all of their own. Though it does not seem to involve much in the way of hand-waving and incantations it is nonetheless powerful magic and it varies greatly from individual to individual; from Elrond's healing powers, to Galadriel's ability to touch the minds of others, to Legolas's trackless stride and his almost supernatural ability with a bow.

From references in The Hobbit it seems that the Dwarves can craft enchanted items of various sorts, though that seems to be the limit of their magical abilities.

Some humans of noble lineage possess superhuman abilities in combat and other areas, and even have greatly extended lifespans, but no actual "magic" to speak of.

The Hobbits are perhaps the least magical race of all, but they do seem to possess almost supernatural stealth, and most probably (in HERO terms) a few levels of luck.

Edit: P.S. On the subject of the MERP books, it's plain that they "spiced up" the magic of Middle Earth to some degree to make it more attractive to roleplayers, and it does not present an accurate picture of magic in Middle Earth as written about by Tolkien in his books. If you want to take this approach there is nothing to stop you from just converting MERP's idea of magic directly to HERO System.

P.P.S. I deliberately did not mention The Silmarillion because it is a long time since I last read it, but I cannot recall it containing anything that contradicts what I said above.

[Curufea]

I was a Tolkein fan before I was a roleplayer (but that just means that I was a fan between the ages 9 and 12).

There are currently 5 wizards in Middle Earth (okay, there were during the majority of Lord of the Rings, after that there were 3).
Radaghast the Brown, two Blue wizards (off in the east), Saruman the White and Gandalf the Grey.
By the end of LotR, of course, Saruman is dead and Gandalf has left Middle Earth.

A note on wizards - they aren't human. They're Istari or Miai (sp?) - basically Angels for the pantheon. Sauron and the Balrog are also the same race as the wizards. Sauron's boss however - the guy he learnt everything from, Melkor (or Morgoth) is a God (and still not dead, only locked up). Melkor sparked the war which the other Gods got involved in, that was mainly fought by the Elves as well, and cracked the world - sinking half the continent of Beleriand and the rest became Middle Earth.

Also - Melkor had a pet spider called Ungoliant (probably another angel-type) who's sole surviving great-granddaughter was Shelob.

All things (except Tom Bombadil) in Lord of the Rings have their roots in the Silmarillion.

Which is one of the reasons Galadriel is a favourite character of mine...

[Savinien]

Your acquaintance is correct in that in Middle Earth it seems to be only the Istari and others of the Maia, such as Sauron, who wield the traditional "spells 'n' fireballs" kind of wizardly magic we have come to expect from every Fantasy RPG, and judging by Gandalf's sparing use of his spells it is extremely draining even for them. The Maia (including the Istari) are not human, nor are they of any other mortal race. They walked the Earth even before the Elves. When Gandalf refers to other Wizards he is talking about the other Istari.


Is it precisely draining or just looked down upon by Eru and his clan? In the struggle of the Lord of the Rings, the Viair wished for the Men to do wha they could in this struggle with as little help as possible from the Istari... Right?

It is plain that that is not the only kind of magic in Middle Earth, though.

Judging by references in both The Hobbit and LOTR the Elves have a magic all of their own. Though it does not seem to involve much in the way of hand-waving and incantations it is nonetheless powerful magic and it varies greatly from individual to individual; from Elrond's healing powers, to Galadriel's ability to touch the minds of others, to Legolas's trackless stride and his almost supernatural ability with a bow.

From references in The Hobbit it seems that the Dwarves can craft enchanted items of various sorts, though that seems to be the limit of their magical abilities.

The races is another point of distinction. It's fairly obvious that the Hobbits will still be around at the time I'm thinking of running in. What about the others, though? All the Elves but Thranduil's people have moved to the West (except maybe Elrond's Twins...). The Dwarves seem happy to hide in their lairs. (Where do the other Dwarves live? We know Moria has been scourged of Dwarves...)

Some humans of noble lineage possess superhuman abilities in combat and other areas, and even have greatly extended lifespans, but no actual "magic" to speak of.

The Dunedain. Remnants of Numenorean blood that is mostly gone with Aragorn being the last of Isildur's line. Yes, he has children with Arwen, but worrying about thir abilities in play won't likely be an issue.


The Hobbits are perhaps the least magical race of all, but they do seem to possess almost supernatural stealth, and most probably (in HERO terms) a few levels of luck.

Right. I'm not sure if I'll mess with Luck as a racial paradigm or not. I do think this is the best shot at PC races other than Men. Of course, you chould shift around the packages by Peoples (Rohirrim get Riding, etc).

Edit: P.S. On the subject of the MERP books, it's plain that they "spiced up" the magic of Middle Earth to some degree to make it more attractive to roleplayers, and it does not present an accurate picture of magic in Middle Earth as written about by Tolkien in his books. If you want to take this approach there is nothing to stop you from just converting MERP's idea of magic directly to HERO System.

P.P.S. I deliberately did not mention The Silmarillion because it is a long time since I last read it, but I cannot recall it containing anything that contradicts what I said above.

Thanks for your help! Just having other people bounce around ideas helps me figure out what I do or don't like. And, maybe, someone else will be interested in using stuff that comes of it!

[Curufea]

There used to be Dwarfs in the Lonely Mountain as well (before Smaug in the Hobbit book). I think Gimli mentions where they are now in the council at Rivendell - he comes from an area northeast of Dale, the name of which escapes me at present.

[Fitz]

Calling Ungoliant a "pet spider" is a wee bit misleading, considering that she was powerful enough in her own right that Morgoth would make alliance with her, and powerful enough to make Morgoth back down over the terms of the alliance :)

It's never made clear just how Ungoliant came into being, or what sort of being she was. I've always assumed she was coeval with the Valar because she could contend on more or less equal terms with Melkor (Morgoth), who was described as powerful among the Valar, but it's possible she was a very powerful Maia; the line between the two races gets a bit blurred in terms of power levels. Shelob was certainly nowhere near as potent as her progenitor -- again, it's never explicitly stated how far removed she was from Ungoliant.

Tolkienish magic in general seems to me to be omnipresent, but not flashy. Tolkien refers many times to the innate power inherent in beings like Bombadil, Galadriel or Glorfindel, but never makes clear just how that power manifests itself. Gandalf makes mention of "spells", but whether they equate to the hocus-pocus handwaving and gibbering that most roleplayers think of as spellcasting is unclear. There are a couple of examples -- the barrow wight's chant, and Gandalf's shaft of light (lightning bolt?) aimed at the Nazgul are two; there may be more if I bend my memory that far.

If I were trying to replicate Middle Earth in a roleplaying sense, I'd go heavily on inherent Talents, Enhanced Senses and lots of Ancient Lore KS's, and shy away from much in the way of spellcasting as it's usually presented. Magic use would have more in common with what's normally seen as Psionics, and would certainly take time and energy and generally have little in the way of spectacular SFX.

[Curufea]

I agree - magic was very much "coincidental" (from Mage) or was surreptitious / invisible power effects.
It was never stated that this could be because it would attract Sauron's attention - you can imply that if you wish the world to be that way. Magic items were mainly things with enhanced effects - things that were not flashy, but just better at doing what they were supposed to.

It is possible that Ungoliant was extra-ardariel (extraterestrial). It's also possible Tom Bombadil was as well.

The Valar are the Gods of Middle Earth - all children of Illuvatar - the father-type God. Including Melkor/Morgoth. The oft quoted Gilthonial and Elbereth for the various songs and even, you could argue, the incantation to activate the Phial of Galdriel, were two of the Valar. Also note - Illuvatar made the Elves (and the Humans), but one of his children made the Dwarfs. I don't know where Ents or Hobbits came from.

However, powers outside of the Valar were not part of the song of creation - and therefore could make the destiny of the world quite different....

[Mark Taylor]

Is it precisely draining or just looked down upon by Eru and his clan? In the struggle of the Lord of the Rings, the Viair wished for the Men to do wha they could in this struggle with as little help as possible from the Istari... Right?

That's very possibly a factor too, but there are several references in LOTR (the books, not really the movies) to Gandalf being very tired and weary after invoking any major magic, so I think we can conclude it is also quite draining.

The races is another point of distinction. It's fairly obvious that the Hobbits will still be around at the time I'm thinking of running in. What about the others, though? All the Elves but Thranduil's people have moved to the West (except maybe Elrond's Twins...). The Dwarves seem happy to hide in their lairs. (Where do the other Dwarves live? We know Moria has been scourged of Dwarves...)

So there are at least a few Elves. The only places I can remember being mentioned that Dwarves live off the top of my head are the Lonely Mountain and Dale. I can't remember where Dain comes to the Lonely Mountain from, but presumably it is from another Dwarf Kingdom.

[Mark Taylor]

There used to be Dwarfs in the Lonely Mountain as well (before Smaug in the Hobbit book). I think Gimli mentions where they are now in the council at Rivendell - he comes from an area northeast of Dale, the name of which escapes me at present.

Gimli is from the Lonely Mountain itself! Remember that after the Death of Smaug and the Battle of Five Armies the Kindgom Under the Mountain is fully restored, with Dain as King. In the time of LOTR it is once again a thriving Dwarf kingdom (described in some detail to Frodo by Gimli at Rivendell).

[Mark Taylor]

The real question about Dwarves is "are there any female Dwarves?" There is a throwaway reference to female Dwarves in one of the LOTR movies, but IIRC there is not a single mention of female Dwarves in either the Silmarillion, The Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings. Indeed in the part of the Silmarillion in which Aulë creates the Dwarfs, it mentions only that he creates "Seven Fathers". There's no mention of any Mother(s).

This in turn of course begs the question that if there are no female Dwarves, how do Dwarves reproduce?

[Mark Taylor]

Actually this link might answer my question, though I can't remember when and where Dis is mentioned. Presumably somewhere in The Hobbit.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/encyclopedia/dis_1

[Savinien]

Calling Ungoliant a "pet spider" is a wee bit misleading, considering that she was powerful enough in her own right that Morgoth would make alliance with her, and powerful enough to make Morgoth back down over the terms of the alliance :)

It's never made clear just how Ungoliant came into being, or what sort of being she was. I've always assumed she was coeval with the Valar because she could contend on more or less equal terms with Melkor (Morgoth), who was described as powerful among the Valar, but it's possible she was a very powerful Maia; the line between the two races gets a bit blurred in terms of power levels. Shelob was certainly nowhere near as potent as her progenitor -- again, it's never explicitly stated how far removed she was from Ungoliant.

Tolkienish magic in general seems to me to be omnipresent, but not flashy. Tolkien refers many times to the innate power inherent in beings like Bombadil, Galadriel or Glorfindel, but never makes clear just how that power manifests itself. Gandalf makes mention of "spells", but whether they equate to the hocus-pocus handwaving and gibbering that most roleplayers think of as spellcasting is unclear. There are a couple of examples -- the barrow wight's chant, and Gandalf's shaft of light (lightning bolt?) aimed at the Nazgul are two; there may be more if I bend my memory that far.

If I were trying to replicate Middle Earth in a roleplaying sense, I'd go heavily on inherent Talents, Enhanced Senses and lots of Ancient Lore KS's, and shy away from much in the way of spellcasting as it's usually presented. Magic use would have more in common with what's normally seen as Psionics, and would certainly take time and energy and generally have little in the way of spectacular SFX.


If Psionics is the way to go... What game-mechanic would best be used to represent it?

Something to remember is that I'm running this in the Fourth Age. What sorts of things could be added/used to best represent this fact (other than history).

[Mark Taylor]

...I can't remember where Dain comes to the Lonely Mountain from, but presumably it is from another Dwarf Kingdom...

A little digging revealed that Dain came from the Iron Hills.

[Mark Taylor]

If Psionics is the way to go... What game-mechanic would best be used to represent it?

Powers with very few limitations and frequently Invisible Power Effects.

[Savinien]

From your suggestions, I plan on having Dwarves play a larger part in my Fourth Age setting, Mark!

Rep to you!

Now, if I can just come up with some more stuff and what I'm going to do about magic.

Also, wouldn't it stand to reason that a new threat will eventually be born in the Fourth Age? What might it be?

[Savinien]

Powers with very few limitations and frequently Invisible Power Effects.

Thinking along these lines sort of reminded me of a lot of the more subtleties in MERP...

What about some stats for goblins, orcs, or Cave Trolls?

[Mark Taylor]

Also, wouldn't it stand to reason that a new threat will eventually be born in the Fourth Age? What might it be?

There is some stuff about the Fourth Age in the Appendix to the Lord of the Rings but I can't remember much of it.

Men from the South (perhaps allied with orcs?) might make a viable Fourth Age threat. It's implied in the Lord of the Rings that the lands to the South are vast and contain countless hordes of men, and given that many of them allied with Sauron in LOTR it's possible that they might decide to take for themselves what they couldn't get with his help. As for the Orcs, there must have been many of Sauron's Orcs left after the War of the Ring, and it would seem natural for them to flee South and ally with the men who had fought for their Master.

[Savinien]

Of course... There are all the orcs in Moria still, too.

The Ithilien is the valley between Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul. The Anduin flows southward through the center with teh ruins of Osgilitiath resting between the two fortifications/cities.

I'm planning on much of the danger from the South being taken care of by Forimir and the Lady in White before their subsequent deaths. I did want to create some subtle tension though, similar to the necromancer in the early Third Age. There will be those that wonder if Sauron or his ilk have somehow returned, but I'll leave it mostly in the background.

I'm looking towards creating a setting that could eventually hold multiple campaigns. But, I wanted the first to be near Ithilien.

[Fitz]

If Psionics is the way to go... What game-mechanic would best be used to represent it?

Something to remember is that I'm running this in the Fourth Age. What sorts of things could be added/used to best represent this fact (other than history).

Off the cuff, I'd give any Powers Concentration for a start. There are some examples you can draw from: Saruman has a sort of Mind Control, but only while he's talking; you could instead represent it as Persuasion at a phenomenally high level. Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel are able to communicate telepathically, but this (I think) is a by-product of the fact that they each bear one of the three Elvish rings.

When you talk about game mechanics, I think what you need to consider are the SFX rather than the mechanics themselves.

As far as the 4th Age goes: there are very few elves left bar the Moriquendi (those who never went to Valinor in the 1st Age). The orcs, trolls and what-not are no longer under Sauron's control, so they will tend to be a lot more fragmented. Also, the absence of Sauron is going to create a major power vacuum, one which may well be exploited by the Southrons and Easterlings who had previously been under his thumb. Plus, what about all the refugees -- all of Sauron's slave workers? Gondor, the major Northern power, is weaker than at almost any time in its history, and it has plenty of ancestral enemies to contend with, like the Corsairs of Umbar who are also descended from Numenor. There are still some major nasties around, left-overs from Morgoth's time: the Watcher in the Water wasn't killed, for example, and Gandalf makes references to dragons still being around (though not nearly as powerful as the old dragons like Ancalagon).

In short: opportunity abounds! Knock yerself out!

[Savinien]

There is some stuff about the Fourth Age in the Appendix to the Lord of the Rings but I can't remember much of it.


I've gathered that info and what there is at the Encyclopedia Arda. It is mostly just notations about what the Fellowship did and where they all died.

The Fourth Age should be an era of men as that is what Tolkien had in mind and I realize I have a lot of directions to go in. I was just hoping you guys could help me out.

And you have. I could always use more, though!

Thanks!

[Mark Taylor]

What about some stats for goblins, orcs, or Cave Trolls?

Now you're asking. ;) Do you have The Hero System Bestiary and Monsters, Minions and Marauders? If so I'd start with the stats from those books and modify them to reflect whateve you can glean about the natures of the Middle Earth versions of these creatures. I'd really have to read the books again to make any firm suggestions beyond that.

[Curufea]

The real question about Dwarves is "are there any female Dwarves?" There is a throwaway reference to female Dwarves in one of the LOTR movies, but IIRC there is not a single mention of female Dwarves in either the Silmarillion, The Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings. Indeed in the part of the Silmarillion in which Aulë creates the Dwarfs, it mentions only that he creates "Seven Fathers". There's no mention of any Mother(s).

This in turn of course begs the question that if there are no female Dwarves, how do Dwarves reproduce?

Much of Tolkein is taken from the myths of Europe.

Traditional Dwarfs were carved out of stone.
There were no female Dwarfs.

BTW - I don't ever remember reading about "Cave Trolls". In the books there are "Olog Hai" which are a breeding enhancement made to Trolls in the same manner as "Uruk Hai" are to normal orcs (called by the Elves "Yrch")

[Curufea]

Gondor, the major Northern power, is weaker than at almost any time in its history, and it has plenty of ancestral enemies to contend with, like the Corsairs of Umbar who are also descended from Numenor.

I'd debate that - with the return of the king to Gondor, and the appendicies in the book - Aragorn basically unites all the north - including Hobbiton and Bree and Angmar - plus he drew up new treaties with Rohan.

Whilst they lost a lot of people in the war of the ring - they gained much more organisation. Which counts for a lot (look at the Roman Empire)

[Fitz]

Yeah, BUT (and it's a big but) where *is* everyone in the North? Compared with the old days, it's a sparse depopulated wasteland. The Kingdom of the North is basically defunct (and has been for centuries), the ancestors of the Rohirrim are gone except for a few small settlements, and the major habitation of Men is Dale, which isn't huge. Ithilien has been depopulated. Rohan has always been lightly populated, and according to the Appendices a good number of their fighting men ended up sallying off with Eomer and Aragorn to fight off the Southrons.

Gondor in the 4th Age is like Britain in the 21st century -- still powerful, but a pale shadow of its old power. (The weather's bound to be better in Gondor though).

[Mutant for Hire]

Actually, I don't like the idea of the Fourth Age for gaming so much as the Fifth. The Fifth Age? Yes, I worked out a crude concept sketch for the Fourth Age, which is essentially the rise and the fall of the Gondorian Empire.

The core concept is based on the idea that Tolkein's history has a lot of repeating themes to it, or at least echoing themes. Here's my own view of how things work:

Zeroth Age (not a canonical naming, I know): The rise of a Golden Age within a great kingdom (Valinor) which ends with a cataclysm caused by a dark power corrupting it (Morgoth slays the Two Trees)

First Age: A dark power (Morgoth) threatens the races of Middle Earth. There is a great struggle to overthrow this dark power and when that happens, the Age is considered to be at an end.

Second Age: The rise of a Golden Age within a great kingdom (Numenor) which ends by a cataclysm caused by a dark power corrupting it (Numenor sinks due to Sauron turning the Numenoreans against the Valar)

Third Age: A dark power (Sauron) threatens the races of Middle Earth. There is a great struggle to overthrow this dark power and when that happens, the Age is considered to be at an end.

Fourth Age: The rise of a Golden Age within a great kingdom (Gondor).

Guess how I see the Fourth Age ending? The question is, who is the dark power that corrupts the Gondorians and causes a cataclysm?

The Witch-King, the Head of the Nazgul. But he's dead? Well, he wasn't exactly alive in the first place when Eowyn slew him. And remember, the other eight Rings of the Nine were consumed by Mount Doom, but the Witch-King's was left on the battlefield. Even Tolkein states in the books "He was never seen again in that age", which leaves the possibility open that he might return in another Age, save the Fourth.

My concept is that the Witch-King's ring eventually falls into the wrong hands, who use it as a focus for evil sorcery (possibly the Mouth of Sauron or another student of the dark arts of Morgoth) and eventually summon back the spirit of the Witch-King, who eventually overwhelms the summoner. Possibly the ring becomes a talisman that causes the spirit of the Witch-King to possess and take over whoever wears the Ring.

Eventually, the Gondorian Empire collapses, not unlike the sack of Rome. The Witch-King was broken but being a spirit and not truly alive, manages to restore himself after a few centuries. There's a lot of history I'm skipping for the moment, unless someone wants me to go over the fate of the last three Istari and why only Gandalf sailed back into the West and what role they played in the rise and fall of Gondor, as well as what happened to the Dwarves, Elves and Hobbits in that age.

The Fifth Age is the Age after Gondor, when Rohan, or the nation that traces its heritage to Rohan is probably the height of civilization at this time (Gondor being sacked and burned by barbarian tribes of the south and east). The Witch-King is a shadow of his former power, on the other hand, most of the great powers of Middle Earth are gone. The most powerful of the Elves are dead or fled to the West, the Dunedain are a shadow of their former selves, but still, Men thrive.

[Eosin]

This article was written by Clark Peterson of Necromancer Games - I have kept it on my hard drive and thought that you might find some value in it. It is a great read full of ideas, even if you never use any of them.


A Middle Earth Timeline: Exciting Periods In Which To Set Middle Earth Campaigns


by Clark Peterson

Long ago I cooked up a GURPS supplement for LotR. Here is my section on when to set adventures, which is one of the most difficult things when playing in Middle Earth:

Settings

This Supplement presumes that adventures within Middle Earth are set in the late Third Age or early Fourth Age, and it provides only those racial and cultural packages which exist in that time period. Several time periods seem to be appropriate settings for adventure, some more difficult than others, being more removed from Middle Earth as described in the Lord of the Rings. For example, in any of the settings below before the Great Plague much would have to be changed from the world as described in the Lord of the Rings: Fornost and Annuminais are still whole, as is Osgiliath (though burnt in 1430), and the Northern kingdom is still intact. There is still a king in Gondor. The Rohirrim have not yet aided Gondor and been granted the lands of the Mark. Moria is still full of dwarves, since Durin’s Bane had not yet been awakened. Hobbits have just begun to settle Bree, and the Shire has not yet been founded.

However, any of the time periods below more than adequately provide the necessary thematic backdrop against which epic adventures may be set in Middle Earth. The only restriction on using a setting before the events of the Lord of the Rings, of course, is that the necessary story components must not be altered.

1. TA 1300-1389: The Rise of Angmar: The Witch-king has established Angmar and makes war against the Dunedain of the North. Orcs and other evil creatures increase in the world. There is much intrigue between the three sundered Arnorian realms of Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur, backed by the Witch-king. A campaign set in this time would stress the vigor of Gondor and the growing strife with the Witch-king as well as the internal struggle in Arnor.

2. TA 1409: The Invasion of Arnor: The Witch-king of Angmar invades Arnor. King Arvaleg I is slain. Though Fornost and Tyrn Gorthad are defended, the Tower of Amon Sul (Weathertop) is destroyed. A campaign set in this time would be against a backdrop of constant and open military hostility. The threat of Angmar, hinted at above, now is poised to overthrow the Northern kingdom.

3. TA 1430-1450: The Kin Strife: A fertile time for adventure, King Valdacar of Gondor dies and the civil war of the kin-strife begins. Soon, Osgiliath is burned and the palantir lost. Eldacar of Gondor flees to Rhovanion and his son, Ornedil is murdered. Castamir the Usurper seizes the throne of Gondor. Ten years later, Eldacar returns and drives out the Usurper. Pelargir is beseiged and the rebels escape and seize Umbar. A highly political setting, the players could be cast as loyal supporters of Eldacar.

4. TA 1634-1640--The Years of the Great Plague: Starting in 1634, the Corsairs ravage Pelargir and slay King Minardil. Then, two years later in 1636, the Great Plague devastates Gondor. New King Telemnar and his children are slain. The white tree dies in Minas Anor (later to be named Minas Tirith). The plague spreads and there is great loss, with parts of Eriador becoming desolate. The Hobbits in the Shire survive but also at great loss. A campaign set at this time would stress the great theme of decline and decay, as Osgiliath is in ruin, Pelargir is destroyed, the white tree dies, and Tharbad begins to fall into decay.

5. TA 1851-1944: The Wainriders and the Battle of Dagorlad: Fourty one years after King Telumehtar retakes Umbar and drives out the Corsairs, the Wainriders begin their attack on Gondor. Gondor loses its eastern territories and Narmicil II falls in battle. King Calimehtar defeats the Wainriders on Dagorlad and builds the White Tower in Minas Anor. A campaing set in this time would end on a happy note with the building of the White Tower and with a defeat of the Wainriders. It would also allow the characters to take part in the famed Battle of Dagorlad.

6. TA 1940-1945--The Reunification: Gondor and Arnor renew communications and form an alliance. Arvedui, the last king of the North, weds Firiel, the daughter of Ondoher of Gondor. Ondoher falls in battle. Earnil defeats the enemy in South Ithilien and then drives the last of the Wainriders into the Dead Marshes after the Battle of the Camp. Arvedui claims the crown of Gondor, but his claim is not yet accepted and Earnil II receives the crown. Peace and reunification seem to be at hand. A campaign set here would include much intrigue, requiring the characters to involve themselves willing or not in the claims to the throne of Gondor.

7. TA 1974-1976--The Destruction of Arnor and the Fall of the Witch-King: In a final assault on the North kingdom, the Witch-king overruns Arthedain and Fornost is taken. Fleeing from the destruction, Arvedui, the last king, drowns in the Bay of Forochel. The palantiri of Annuminas and Amon Sul are supposedly lost. The Witch-king of Angmar in the end is defeated at the Battle of Fornost when Earnur brings a fleet to Lindon. The Witch-king vanishes from the North and comes to Mordor where he gathers the other Nazgul to him. Aranarth takes the title of Cheiftain of the Dunedain, and the heirlooms of Arnor are given into the keeping of Elrond. A campaign set in this time is very near in feel to the Lord of the Rings itself. There is great loss and sacrifice, but final victory over evil. The characters could take part in helping to deliver the heirlooms to Elrond in Rivendell, which Aragorn will later use, giving an ending of hope to an otherwise dark campaign.

8. TA 1980-2050--The Fall of Minas Ithil and the End of Gondor: Evil grows. The Witch-king, driven from Angmar, has called the other Nazgul to Mordor. The Balrog appears in Moria and slays Durin VI. The dwarves flee Moria and many of the elves of Lorien flee South. Amroth and Nimrodel are lost. Thrain I founds the "Kingdom Under the Mountain" at Erebor. The Nazgul beseige and capture Minas Ithil, which is ever after known as Minas Morgul. The Ithil stone is captured by the Nazgul. Earnur, the final king of Gondor, is twice challenged by the Witch-king. The second challenge is accepted and Earnur is slain in treachery at Minas Morgul, thus ending the line of kings of Gondor. Mardil becomes the first ruling steward. As with the fall of Arnor above, this time is similarly ripe for adventure. Arnor is in ruin, Gondor is besieged now by the Witch-king, Moria is deserted. Sauron as of yet has not been unmasked as the Necromancer of Dol Guldur, and his power is growing. The loss of the kingship of Gondor is an epic tragedy, and embodies the theme of decline. The ceremonial appointment of the steward foreshadows the Return of the King: Aragorn II.

9. TA 2060-2460: The Watchful Peace: The wise fear that the Necromancer in Dol Guldur is Sauron, and Gandalf confronts him. Sauron flees and hides in the East. The Watchful Peace begins. The Nazgul are quiet in Minas Morgul as Sauron builds his power now in Mordor for many years. Finally, in 2460, Sauron returns in strength to Dol Guldur. This setting would be appropriate for running a campaign where the players do not want to meddle in the larger affairs of Middle Earth, as Sauron and the Nazgul are in hiding. The dwarves return to the Grey Mountains and Hobbits settle Buckland. The One Ring has not yet been found by Smeagol. A GM would be given much leeway in developing and allowing the characters to overcome some lesser evil. A campaign could be run at this time with one of the characters finding the ring, as long as it ends back up in the river for Smeagol to find.

10. TA 2509-2515: The Sons of Elrond and the Victory of the Rohirrim: With an increase in Orcs and evil creatures in Moria and the Misty Mountains, Celebrian is waylaid on her journey from Rivendel to Lorien and recieves a poisoned wound. Eladan and Elrohir, the sons of Elrond, ride errant seeking to exact revenge on all evil creatures for the passage of their mother. Orcs and Easterlings overrun Calenardhon. Eorl and the Eothraim win the day at the Field of Celebrant and are rewarded by Gondor with the land of Calenardhon. The Rohirrim now settle the lands of the Mark they occupy throughout the Lord of the Rings. A campaign set in this time would certainly include the players in the activities of the sons of Elrond and in the relocation of the Rohirrim to the lands of the Mark.

11. TA 2740-2759: Rohan Besieged and the Long Winter: Prior to the Long Winter, Orcs renew their invasion of Eriador. Rohan is attacked from the west and east and overrun. Gondor is attacked by fleets of the Corsairs. Helm of Rohan takes refuge in Helm’s Deep. Wulf seizes Edoras. In 2758-59, the Long Winter brings great suffering into Eriador and Rohan. Gandalf takes interest in the Shire, and comes to its aid. Helm is slain. Frealaf drives out Wulf and begins the second line of Kings of the Mark. Sauruman is given the keys to Isengard. A campaign set in this time would allow the players to partake in the original battle at Helm’s Deep, prefiguring the story in the Lord of the Rings. A skilled GM would place his or her players in situations similar to those faced by the Grey Company. Also, as the history of the Mark is not fully fleshed out by Tolkien, a GM would have quite a bit of "breathing room" to set adventures in this time period.


12. TA 2790-2799: The War of Dwarves and Orcs: Thror is slain in Moria by Azog. The dwarves gather for a war of vengeance and the War of Dwarves and Orcs begins, culminating in the Battle of Azanulbizar (Nanduhirion) before the East-gate of Moria where Azog is slain by Dain Ironfoot after killing his father, Nain. At the conclusion of the war, Dain Ironfoot returns to the Iron Hills and Thrain II and his son Thorin wander westward, settling in the South of Ered Luin beyond the Shire. This campaign setting is perfect for those groups of players who just don’t ever want to play any character other than a dwarf. It’s a dwarf-orc melee-fest.

13. TA 2911-2912: The Fell Winter: The Baranduin and other rivers are frozen and White Wolves invade Eriador from the North. In its thaw, great floods devastate Enedwaith and Minhiriath. Tharbad is ruined and deserted. This setting is a favorite of mine, because it has unity of time and location--a very short time period with action focused in the North. I ascribe the Fell Winter to an agent of Sauron (possibly the Witch-king or some other evil lieutenant) who has returned to Angmar with an item of power over the weather. The players aid the Rangers of the North in uncovering and defeating Sauron’s servant. I personally love Angmar and this setting allows me to use it in a time frame closer to the War of the Ring. Additionally, setting a campaign during this time allows for a heroic explanation to what would otherwise be a strange though natural occurrence.

14. TA 2941-2944: The Hobbit: Just for reference, this is when Thorin arrives in the Shire, Bilbo finds the Great Ring, the White Council drives Sauron from Dol Guldur, Smaug is slain, the Battle of the Five Armies occurs, Thorin II dies, Dain reestablishes the Kingdom Under the Mountain and Bard rebuilds Dale and becomes king. In my mind, this is not a good time to set a campaign; so much is going on that there is little "breathing room" for a game master to set a story. Though adventurous and skilled game masters may succeed.

15. TA 2951-2980: The Journeys of Aragorn: Sauron decalres himself openly, gathers power in Mordor and begins to rebuild the Barad-dur. Sauron sends the Nazgul to occupy Dol Guldur. Elrond reveals to Aragorn his true heritage and delivers to him the shards of Narsil. Arwen meets Aragorn. Aragorn goes into the Wild. The Last meeting of the White Council, Sauraman fortifies Orthanc. Mount Doom bursts into flames. Aragorn meets Gandalf and their friendship begins. From TA 2957-2980, Aragorn begins his great journeys and errantries, serving Gondor and Rohan under the name of Thorongil. In TA 2980, Aragorn and Arwen plight their troth upon the hill of Cerin Amroth where he gives her the Ring of Barahir. Gollum makes his way to Mordor. This setting has quite a bit of "breathing room." Characters could be part of Thorongil’s company in the service of Rohan and Gondor. Either here or later in the hunt for Gollum, Aragorn goes to Moria, and possibly the characters can go with him. The characters would certainly also meet Gandalf. This is an outstanding setting for a first Middle Earth campaign because it is near in time to the Lord of the Rings and thus many of the characters and places are as described in the trilogy. Additionally, it allows for player contact with Aragorn (in disguise as Thorongil) and Gandalf.

16. TA 3000-3017---The Hunt for Gollum: Sauraman uses the Orthanc stone and is ensnared by Sauron. Gandalf suspects that Bilbo’s ring is the One Ring. The guard on the Shire is doubled. Gandalf seeks out Aragorn’s aid in finding Gollum. Starting in TA 3009, Gandalf and Aragorn start their search for Gollum in earnest, searching the vales of Anduin, Mirkwood, and Rhovanion to the confines of Mordor. At some point during this time, Gollum ventures into Mordor and is captured by Sauron. In TA 3017, Gollum is released from Mordor and is captured by Aragorn in the Dead Marshes and brought to Thranduil in Mirkwood for keeping. A campaign set in this time would have similar advantages as the Journeys of Aragorn, above, though it has a little less "breathing room," since the driving force is the location of Gollum. However, it does allow for some good gentle moments where the characters can aid in keeping secret the love of Aragorn and Arwen. Also, the GM may decide that it was during the search for Gollum that Aragorn entered Moria, so the characters could go with him.

17. TA 3018: The War of the Ring: The events of the trilogy are in motion: Gollum has escaped Thranduil’s realm, Boromir’s dream disturbs Gondor and he is sent to Rivendell, Denethor is snared by Sauron, Sauron’s emissaries wait at the Gate of Erebor hoping for information on hobbits and the Black Riders are abroad with the name "Baggins" on their lips. A campaign set during the time of the trilogy has several advantages and disadvantages. It would require no historical modification; things would be exactly as they are in the trilogy.

18. TA 3019-3021/FA 1: The Return of the Shadow: As Gandalf explains after the War of the Ring, the downfall of Sauron is not the end of evil, for he is but a servant of Morgoth, whose evil persists though he has been cast out. In fact, a fragmentary story started by Professor Tolkien exists which takes place after the War of the Ring. See History of Middle Earth XII. Also, if a campaign is to be set after the War of the Ring, consult the timeline regarding the End of the Third Age in Appendix B of The Return of the King. While this setting certainly has the greatest "breathing room," as there are no subsequent events to be concerned about disrupting, this setting also lacks some of the thematic force of pre-War of the Ring settings. The Age of Men has arrived and the Eldar are passing and all their works are fading or have faded from the earth. Though even in this the great theme of decay can still be played out, as Aragorn’s reunited kingdom, no matter how glorious, is but a pale shadow even of Gondor of old or of Isildur’s Northern Kingdom.

Final Notes:

In my experience, there are four major things that persons playing in Middle Earth want to do, all of which can be accommodated in any of the above settings (except possibly the last):

1. Meet and interact with their favorite character from the Lord of the Rings;
2. Go to a famous place described in the Lord of the Rings;
3. Be the cause of, the explanation for or participate in a famous event;
4. Assist in the success of the War of the Ring in some way, usually without notoriety, so that they may smugly claim that the Fellowship’s quest, or the War of the Ring, or Aragorn’s return could not have been accomplished without their small but significant contribution.

[Eosin]

Another article from Jeff Black

Middle Earth in the Fourth Age
by Jeff Black

Some thoughts on the running of a Fourth Age Middle Earth campaign

A Fourth Age Middle Earth campaign is a great way to use Tolkien's world as a game setting without having to worry about, or change, canon. Tolkien himself provides a lot of interesting detail about his world after the time of the Lord of the Rings, detail that provides a wealth of campaign hooks and ideas. I'll quote some of this material to show how relevant it is to a DM wanting to run a campaign in Middle Earth.

"For though Sauron had passed, the hatreds and evils that he bred had not died, and the King of the West had many enemies to subdue before the White Tree could grow in peace. And wherever King Elessar went with war King Eomer went with him; and beyond the Sea of Rhun and on the far fields of the South the thunder of the cavalry of the Mark was heard, and the White Horse upon Green flew in many winds until Eomer grew old."

- The Return of the King, Apendix A, part II, The House of Eorl

This paragraph sets the premise for decades of Fourth Age adventure. It doesn't involve just Men, either. Even though Tolkien makes much of how the Fourth Age is a time of fading for all the peoples of Middle Earth except Men, it is apparent that many of the other races are actually becoming much more gregarious in the Fourth Age. Here are some examples:

"After the fall of Sauron, Gimli brought south a part of the Dwarf-folk of Erebor, and he became Lord of the Glittering Caves. He and his people did great works in Gondor and Rohan. For Minas Tirith they forged gates of mithril and steel to replace those broken by the Witch-king. Legolas his friend brought south Elves out of Greenwood, and they dwelt in Ithilien,
and it became once again the fairest country in all the westlands."

- The Return of the King, Appendix A, part III, Durin's Folk

"Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow had passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

In the North also there had been war and evil. The realm of Thranduil was invaded, and there was long battle under the trees and great ruin of fire; but in the end Thranduil had the victory. And on the day of the New Year of the Elves, Celeborn and Thranduil met in the midst of the forest; and they renamed Mirkwood Eryn Lasgalen, The Wood of Greenleaves. Thranduil took all the northern region as far as the mountains that rise in the forest for his realm; and Celeborn took all the southern wood below the Narrows, and named it East Lorien; all the wide forest between was given to the Beornings and the Woodmen. But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond. In the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled, but in Lorien there lingered sadly only a few of its former people, and there was no longer light or song in Caras Galadon."

- The Return of the King, Appendix B, The Tale of Years

In addition, it seems that the Fourth Age is a time of renewal and rebuilding. A few brief but significant passages suggest that Elessar seeks to reinvigorate the entire northwestern part of Middle Earth, something which will take a number of hardy individuals performing countless heroic deeds. Here are some examples:

"King Elessar rides north, and dwells for a while by Lake Evendim."
[Fourth Age 14]

- The Return of the King, Appendix B, The Tale of Years

"And Aragorn gave to Faramir Ithilien to be his princedom, and bade him dwell in the hills of Emyn Arnen within sight of the City.'For,' said he, 'Minas Ithil in Morgul Vale shall be utterly destroyed, and though it may in time to come be made clean, no man may dwell there for many long years.'"

- The Return of the King, Book VI, Chapter V: The Steward and the King

As simple as these passages seem, the actual doing of the deeds required to accomplish them is rather difficult. Elessar not only travels to, but actually lives at Annuminas for a while. Seeing that the city was a ruin at the end of the Third Age, abandoned for centuries, and surrounded by wilderness, this implies an enormous effort was made by Gondor. It seems clear that Annuminas is restored, and becomes the chief city of the northern kingdom. It is not difficult to picture that King Elessar also rebuilt Fornost Erain and Tharbad. It is also highly likely, even though unmentioned, that Osgiliath was cleared and rebuilt; given Elessar's desire to rebuild the Dunedain kingdoms, this seems a natural assumption to make.

In addition, the destruction of Minas Ithil, an entire fortress-city the size of Minas Tirith (at least), held by the chief of the Nazgul for centuries and used as a base for a large part of the strength of Mordor, is a task which would have to involve thousands of troops. This is especially true if the city was used as a rallying point and base for some of the remnants of Sauron's armies. It is not hard to imagine that the interior of the city is filled with all manner of evil things - Men, beasts, traps, and a generally unwholesome atmosphere. Very much like a D&D adventure. And speaking of D&D adventures...

"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day."

- The Two Towers, Book III, Chapter V: The White Rider

With the Balrog defeated, Sauron gone, and a huge part of the strength of the orcs in the region destroyed, it is quite likely that the Dwarves would at least begin to explore and clean out Moria. This would provide the archetypal dungeon adventure. Especially given that tantalizing glimpse Gandalf gives into a world of darkness and horror far beneath even where the Kings of the Dwarves once dwelled.

Here are a few random, and final, thoughts about possibilities for Fourth Age campaigns:

Mirkwood (renamed Eryn Lasgalen) and Ithilien would likely also remain havens for a time for evil creatures, such as spiders and orcs, until the Elves, woodmen, and Beornings finally rid the forest of them. Shelob still dwells near Cirth Ungol, and the Watcher in the Water still haunts the lake near the west gate of Moria.

Veterans of Celeborn's taking of Dol Guldur would be good candidates for duty in Mordor itself, or any place wherein darkness still holds sway.

There are at least two great Elves still unaccounted for in the 4th Age: Daeron and Maglor. Perhaps one or the other is encountered in the East, or perhaps one or the other returns to western Middle Earth, finally weary of wandering, their pain and sorrow driving them towards the west at last. Perhaps one of them could take up residence in fading Lorien, or even in Rivendell for a time, or take up the kingship of East Lorien once Celeborn leaves.

I hope some of this has helped generate ideas for a Fourth Age campaign in Middle Earth.

[Captain Obvious]

Iron Crown Enterprises used to make (may still make for all I know) all sorts of sourcebooks for Middle Earth locations, and as I recall, they were mostly intended for play in the Fourth Age, although they do have 3rd Age notes. Now, to me, they were very D&D in tone, and not too Tolkien, but the maps were good, and there are some good ideas scattered here and there in them. If you can pick some up for cheap, they would definitely be worth looking at.

[grymlocke]

there is a book that you might find worth looking into, the atlas of middle earth.
It can be found at amazon.com (used too), i read through it at borders, plainer english that the back of ROTHK (return of the king), maps, migration, etc....similar to living greyhawk book, but not a really a gaming resource (pretty close though...) I was toying with the idea of getting it myself to try ME write ups......

I think this thread should be called : 'Heroes of Middle earth' or 'ME HERO' ....

[Lezentauw]

The Witch-King, the Head of the Nazgul. But he's dead? Well, he wasn't exactly alive in the first place when Eowyn slew him. And remember, the other eight Rings of the Nine were consumed by Mount Doom, but the Witch-King's was left on the battlefield. Even Tolkein states in the books "He was never seen again in that age", which leaves the possibility open that he might return in another Age, save the Fourth.

This is an interesting twist for a campaign idea MFH, but it violates what I believe is cannon for the rings of power.

The way I understand it, once the One Ring was destroyed. All of the rings of power, became nothing more than worthless trinkets. That includes the rings of power that the Elves bore, and they were no where near Mt Doom, when the One Ring fell into the fire. I could be wrong, but that is my understanding of the Rings of Power.

There may be a way that the Witch-King comes back, but as far as I understand it, it is not by a ring of power. As well, there are no rings of power left.

I think that if you wanted to use an antagonist, that a Balrog would be better suited. They were equal in power to Istari, both being compared as lesser Valar. I vaguely remember mention somewhere that there were more than just one Balrog, and that they came over with Morgoth to Middle Earth.

Perhaps a Balrog raised the Witch-King from ashes to serve him in his conquest of Middle-Earth.

[Savinien]

Thanks guys, this is a bundle of great information and offers a lot of options.

Eosin - Those articles are a great help. I especially appreciate the detail that fleshes out the little blurbs I'd found previously at other locations. Rep for you!)

MFH - Your theory is similar to my own. The Ages are much like our own time, we just don't stop counting the years. I'd read somewhere that we were currently in the Seventh Age (Gondor Reckoning). I have to agree with Lez concerning the Rings of Power, though.

With the destruction of the One Ring, all the other rings lost their power. What about a Palantir housing some of Sauron's malevolence, though? There are Palantir's that were lost and one made its way up to the Lossoth, I believe (this is from one of the ICE adventures). What it someone found it and gained power and the taint of Morgoth...? (rep for you, too!)

Mark Taber - I don't have either of those books, but I do have access to the Bestiary. I'll start my workings, there.

Fitz - Concentration is a good start. I don't know how that would fit into Limb Running and the like. Clinging would work, only on trees, for that fantabulous dex the evles may have while in Mirkwood.

Great stuff all, everyone! Let's keep this going!

[Captain Obvious]

If you're set on using the Witch-King, you could say that he absorbed enough power through the ring and through his own evil deeds to perpetuate his existence, even though his ring is now worthless. Or maybe his ring no longer receives power from the One Ring, but it still serves as a focus for his own power.

Balrogs are a good idea. There should be a good-sized handful of them still lurking around Middle-Earth here and there. Maybe rather than having one Big-Bad in the campaign, there could be several smaller ones, which spring up at more or less the same time, and while they're not actually working together, it seems that way to the good folk of Middle-Earth.

Maybe a Balrog becomes a god-king among the Wainriders, another begins building an army of orcs and Dunlendings in the Misty Mountains, one sets up a wizard as vizier for the king of the Haradrim and pulls the strings of the one pulling the strings, and meanwhile the Witch-King is harnessing the spirits of the Dead Marshes and rallying the orcs of Mordor.

This is starting to sound really cool...

[irishspy]

So there are at least a few Elves. The only places I can remember being mentioned that Dwarves live off the top of my head are the Lonely Mountain and Dale. I can't remember where Dain comes to the Lonely Mountain from, but presumably it is from another Dwarf Kingdom.

There's also a Dwarf realm in the Glittering Caves at Helm's Deep, as I recall. I think Gimli talks of founding a colony there after the war.

[Savinien]

There's also a Dwarf realm in the Glittering Caves at Helm's Deep, as I recall. I think Gimli talks of founding a colony there after the war.

Exactly right, irishspy. Eosin's articles mentioned precisely the same thing.

[irishspy]

Exactly right, irishspy. Eosin's articles mentioned precisely the same thing.

Ack! It was right in front of me. No wonder I missed it. :stupid: :nonp:

[Mutant for Hire]

I never said that the Witch-King's ring had any power. I said it was used as a focus for sorcery, which is an entirely different matter. There's two types of "magic" in Middle Earth. There is subcreation of the sort that the Elves perform, which isn't really magic in the conventional thinking of it. Then there is the evil sorcery which taps into the essence of what Morgoth put into the creation of Middle Earth, the stuff that people like the Mouth of Sauron learned.

What I'm saying is that people who studied that lore, which wasn't dependent on Sauron at all, used the Ninth Ring to draw the Witch-King's spirit back from wherever it went to. Presumably to learn the lore of the Witch-King, who was tutored in the dark arts by Sauron himself.

[Lezentauw]

I never said that the Witch-King's ring had any power. I said it was used as a focus for sorcery, which is an entirely different matter. There's two types of "magic" in Middle Earth. There is subcreation of the sort that the Elves perform, which isn't really magic in the conventional thinking of it. Then there is the evil sorcery which taps into the essence of what Morgoth put into the creation of Middle Earth, the stuff that people like the Mouth of Sauron learned.

What I'm saying is that people who studied that lore, which wasn't dependent on Sauron at all, used the Ninth Ring to draw the Witch-King's spirit back from wherever it went to. Presumably to learn the lore of the Witch-King, who was tutored in the dark arts by Sauron himself.

Thanks for the explanation. I obviously read into what you posted, and made some bad assumptions based upon not having all the information.

Your idea is definately more plausable then when I first read it!

[Savinien]

Evil and Wicked cool!

Though, I'm still confused. I haven't read the actual books in an age and I'm not sure who 'The Mouth of Sauron' is. I thought he was one of the Ring-wraiths.

I'm with the good Cap. Obvious. This is sounding pretty cool.

I wonder if any of my possible players are working out character ideas...

[Fitz]

Not a ringwraith, one of the so-called "Black Numenoreans". If I recall correctly, he was described as being a fairly hefty sorcerer in his own right, but utterly subservient to the will of Sauron to the extent that he no longer had a name of his own, but was just called the Mouth of Sauron.

He's an interesting character more for the implications of his presence than in himself; where there's one guy like him there's likely to be more. Assuming there are some pretty funky sorcerous lieutenants out and about taking care of slave-run farms and what-not when Barad Dur collapsed, and therefore not squished along with all the rest, there should be some really nasty characters available for some 4th Age gaming goodness.

[Mutant for Hire]

Another idea is that one of the Black Numenoreans got ahold of Saruman's collection of Ring lore (how they got into Orthanc when Treebeard holds the key is a tricky question, but I'm assuming that someone figured it out). Remember that Saruman made a Ring himself. My concept is that a Black Numenorean used his knowledge of sorcery and Saruman's collected Ring-lore to reenchant the Ninth Ring of Men, and didn't realize it was linked to the spirit of the Witch-King who eventually takes over the Ring-wearer.

Another of the concepts that I'm working on is that Radagast the Brown chose to stay behind in Middle Earth. He recognized that the Ents were doomed and the time of Men was coming, and wanted to stay behind to train an order of Men to become protectors of the woods and beasts. Essentially he goes and founds a Druidic order. This order doesn't play a big role in the Fourth Age, or any other Age. As Treebeard says, it's not so much that they're not on anyone's side is that no one else is on their side.

Likewise the last two of the Istari also founded orders, though I'm still working out the details there. Incidentally, I'm not feeling constrained to Tolkein's own notes on the Blue wizards. Tolkein himself quite frequently revised stuff that wasn't actually published in the Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings. Galadriel's motivations for going with the Noldor to Middle Earth was something he fiddled with. All that is necessary is that the last two Istari were not present for any of the events of Lord of the Rings.

Another thought was the fact that while Elrond's sons both stayed behind, only one of them chose to become mortal and be counted among Men. I had the other one decide to remain an Elf and take over Rivendale after his father left. It's essentially a duplication of the Elros/Elrond choice.

[Curufea]

The way magic seems to appear to work in the books - I strongly suspect chanelling. All the allies of Sauron seem to get their power from him. Sauron probably gets his from Melkor.

For the other side - wizards probably go straight to the gods, as do the elves..

[Outsider]

I just read through, and was going to mention ol' Mouthy, among others, as an example of how magic wasnt limited to strictly Nazgul, Elves, or Maia, but it looks like I got beat to it.

[Savinien]

Much of Tolkein is taken from the myths of Europe.

Traditional Dwarfs were carved out of stone.
There were no female Dwarfs.

BTW - I don't ever remember reading about "Cave Trolls". In the books there are "Olog Hai" which are a breeding enhancement made to Trolls in the same manner as "Uruk Hai" are to normal orcs (called by the Elves "Yrch")

I've got the Hero Bestiary! Well, it isn't in my grubby little fingers, but it is out in the car, impatiently waiting for me to tear into it tonight after work. Actually, that's probably me and not it, but who's keeping score here?

BoT: I disagree with this. The Cave Troll is a domesticized aspect of the Trolls Bilbo and the Company of Thirteen tricked into waiting for supper during the Hobbit. An Olog Hai is something else entirely, IMO.

This begs another question: What is Canon? Movie, books, or a mix of both. One of the players is a geek, but not necessarily a Tolkien geek and the other is only familiar with the movie adaptation. Which is better for these purposes?

[Savinien]

Not a ringwraith, one of the so-called "Black Numenoreans". If I recall correctly, he was described as being a fairly hefty sorcerer in his own right, but utterly subservient to the will of Sauron to the extent that he no longer had a name of his own, but was just called the Mouth of Sauron.

He's an interesting character more for the implications of his presence than in himself; where there's one guy like him there's likely to be more. Assuming there are some pretty funky sorcerous lieutenants out and about taking care of slave-run farms and what-not when Barad Dur collapsed, and therefore not squished along with all the rest, there should be some really nasty characters available for some 4th Age gaming goodness.

I agree. This is partially the evidence that says ICE did it right by making it possible to be a spellcaster. I still stand by earlier convictions. Other spell casters existed in ME. Otherwise, the stories of the Necromancer would have been more closely inspected immediately. But, I've already decided there is a modicum of spell ability in an infintessimal minority of the population. I haven't worked out the details, but it will be there.

Now, where, or better, when to start?

[Savinien]

Another idea is that one of the Black Numenoreans got ahold of Saruman's collection of Ring lore (how they got into Orthanc when Treebeard holds the key is a tricky question, but I'm assuming that someone figured it out). Remember that Saruman made a Ring himself. My concept is that a Black Numenorean used his knowledge of sorcery and Saruman's collected Ring-lore to reenchant the Ninth Ring of Men, and didn't realize it was linked to the spirit of the Witch-King who eventually takes over the Ring-wearer.

Another of the concepts that I'm working on is that Radagast the Brown chose to stay behind in Middle Earth. He recognized that the Ents were doomed and the time of Men was coming, and wanted to stay behind to train an order of Men to become protectors of the woods and beasts. Essentially he goes and founds a Druidic order. This order doesn't play a big role in the Fourth Age, or any other Age. As Treebeard says, it's not so much that they're not on anyone's side is that no one else is on their side.

Likewise the last two of the Istari also founded orders, though I'm still working out the details there. Incidentally, I'm not feeling constrained to Tolkein's own notes on the Blue wizards. Tolkein himself quite frequently revised stuff that wasn't actually published in the Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings. Galadriel's motivations for going with the Noldor to Middle Earth was something he fiddled with. All that is necessary is that the last two Istari were not present for any of the events of Lord of the Rings.

Another thought was the fact that while Elrond's sons both stayed behind, only one of them chose to become mortal and be counted among Men. I had the other one decide to remain an Elf and take over Rivendale after his father left. It's essentially a duplication of the Elros/Elrond choice.


I believe some of these details are expounded upon somewhere. I believe Radagast for certain disappeared into the East. There is no reason to believe he didn't found some sort of Druidic Sect. Besides, that just adds to the fodder of the Fourth Age setting.

I was thinking about allowing Imladris/Rivendell to fall into ruin and possibly become an area of investigative exploration. Haunted by the angry spirits of fallen Elves, the explorers deal with new inhabitants and learn the secrets of the long gone. (Or, perhaps, this would make a better 5th or 6th Age story?)

[Fitz]

I disagree with this. The Cave Troll is a domesticized aspect of the Trolls Bilbo and the Company of Thirteen tricked into waiting for supper during the Hobbit. An Olog Hai is something else entirely, IMO.

"Uruk" and "Olog" are just constructions in the Black Speech, Tolkien's Bad-Guy equivalent of the Western Common Tongue. "Uruk-hai" just means "the orc-folk", "Olog-hai" means "the troll-folk". Unfortunately Tolkien didn't delineate the Black Speech nearly as clearly as he did Elvish; I guess he just wasn't as interested in the bad guys.

This begs another question: What is Canon? Movie, books, or a mix of both. One of the players is a geek, but not necessarily a Tolkien geek and the other is only familiar with the movie adaptation. Which is better for these purposes?

I would say, go for the one your players are most familiar with. The movie would probably translate better to roleplaying, being more cinematic -- it gives everyone a common visual reference which makes it easier for everyone to be on the same page, imaginatively-speaking. The books would be better used as background reference material.

[Curufea]

This begs another question: What is Canon? Movie, books, or a mix of both. One of the players is a geek, but not necessarily a Tolkien geek and the other is only familiar with the movie adaptation. Which is better for these purposes?


Canon is whatever the GM says is canon. With all the various flavours/interpretations of Tolkein, a GM should find one to suit themselves.

[Captain Obvious]

"Uruk" and "Olog" are just constructions in the Black Speech, Tolkien's Bad-Guy equivalent of the Western Common Tongue. "Uruk-hai" just means "the orc-folk", "Olog-hai" means "the troll-folk". Unfortunately Tolkien didn't delineate the Black Speech nearly as clearly as he did Elvish; I guess he just wasn't as interested in the bad guys.


It's been some time since I've read LOTR, but I'm pretty sure there was a pretty strict distinction between Uruk-hai and the sort of rabble bred in Mordor. It would stand to reason that Olog-hai were somewhat better than regular trolls, as well.

[Curufea]

Definitely.
Uruk Hai were bred by Saruman - and it's implied they are a cross between Humans and Orcs. They have the advantage over regular orcs - of not being afraid of daylight.

[Savinien]

As an aside, I found this link in Lord Laiden's thread of resource links. That rocks LL, thanks!

I'm reposting it here for its importance to the subject matter...

http://surbrook.devermore.net/lotr/lotrchar.html

[Captain Obvious]

An interesting tidbit from that link: "Later, the resurrected Gandalf threw Saruman out of the Order of the Istari. Saruman fled to the Shire where he became a petty lordling called Sharkey (after the orcish Sharku, "old man"). He was slain by an uprising of hobbits led by the returning Merry and Pippin, and his spirit was refused entry into Aman by the Valar."

So it's possible that he could return as other Maiar did after being "slain" (Gandalf, Sauron), and if a GM were to go with the many-smaller-bad-guys campaign I tossed out earlier, Sharkey could be one of them.

[Savinien]

I'm pretty sure, CO, that if you keep reading, Grimma Wormtongue ended up strangling old Sharkey during the Scouring of the Shire.

Still, it is an interesting tidbit.

On other fronts, I've got a player building a Dwarf for this game. He'll likely be part of Gimli's Glittering Caves colony.

I'd also like to get back to the idea of 'young' Dwarves an how Dwarves are brought into Arda. Are they carved from stone?

Grown in a deep cave like mushrooms?

Or, is every Dwarf mom, the wondrously bearded woman?

[Outsider]

I believe that The Hobbit states that Fili and Kili are the sons of Thorin's sister, which establishes, in canon, that there are dwarven women.

So why dont we ever see any?

1) They look and sound much like the dwarven men. (supported by the film)
2) Dwarven society keeps them close, so they are basically never seen outside dwarven keeps.
3) They are very rare. Perhaps dwarven biology results in most children being male, so, odds are much better that any dwarf one encounters will be male.

Or if could be a combination of all three.

Given their extended lifespans (as compared to a human) and their race's much touted sturdiness, even a small percentage of the dwarven population being female could keep up their numbers.

Human women are fertile from puberty to menopause, a period of about 30 years, without help/hindrance from science. Factoring in miscarriages, stillbirths, infant mortality, and birthing deaths among the mothers, overall human fecundity per woman might be about 6 per.

Dwarven women, on the other hand, might have 100 or more years of fertility, and much lower rates of miscarriage, stillbirth, infant mortality, or dying during childbirth. Overall dwarven fecundity per woman might be more like 30 per, or even more.

The question then becomes, why isnt the world teeming with dwarves?

[APE]

If I remember my hobit corectly Dworven women were said to be very biutiful
and always wore vales when above ground. As Bilbo was leving the lonly mountian they came out to sing goodby wich was considerd a singular honor.

[Savinien]

I believe that The Hobbit states that Fili and Kili are the sons of Thorin's sister, which establishes, in canon, that there are dwarven women.

So why dont we ever see any?

1) They look and sound much like the dwarven men. (supported by the film)
2) Dwarven society keeps them close, so they are basically never seen outside dwarven keeps.
3) They are very rare. Perhaps dwarven biology results in most children being male, so, odds are much better that any dwarf one encounters will be male.

Or if could be a combination of all three.

Given their extended lifespans (as compared to a human) and their race's much touted sturdiness, even a small percentage of the dwarven population being female could keep up their numbers.

Human women are fertile from puberty to menopause, a period of about 30 years, without help/hindrance from science. Factoring in miscarriages, stillbirths, infant mortality, and birthing deaths among the mothers, overall human fecundity per woman might be about 6 per.

Dwarven women, on the other hand, might have 100 or more years of fertility, and much lower rates of miscarriage, stillbirth, infant mortality, or dying during childbirth. Overall dwarven fecundity per woman might be more like 30 per, or even more.

The question then becomes, why isnt the world teeming with dwarves?


SWEET!

What if the years of fertility for dwarven women is NOT similar to humanity in that respect. There is also the possibility of slow maturement of the fetus and newborn. Instead of a nine month period... It may take a few years!

Wouldn't that be awful!

"Thorin! I need peanut-butter and pickles... Now!" For two years!

[Captain Obvious]

UGH!

A longer development time might imply a slower development, though, so there would be less need for strong cravings to get whatever specific nourishment the mother and fetus need. I would hope, then, for the dwarf-men's sakes, that it would be more like "Thorin! I really want peanut butter and pickles today or tomorrow!"

[Captain Obvious]

I'm pretty sure, CO, that if you keep reading, Grimma Wormtongue ended up strangling old Sharkey during the Scouring of the Shire.

Still, it is an interesting tidbit.



Yeah, BUT Gandalf was killed by a Balrog, and Sauron was drowned when Numenor sank. There's nothing stopping Saruman/Sharkey from returning for the Fourth Age.

[Fitz]

Regarding Dwarf women: Tolkien deals with the matter briefly, either in one of the LOTR Appendices or in one of the books published post-mortem by his son. he said that they were few, compared with the males, and that furthermore being as stubborn as their men, often if they couldn't have the male they wanted they would have none at all, so that the rate of marriage and procreation was even lower than the gender imbalance would suggest. It's there that the line Gimli uses in the film about the women being "so alike in voice and appearance, that the rumour arose that there were no dwarf women" was written.

[Savinien]

Regarding Dwarf women: Tolkien deals with the matter briefly, either in one of the LOTR Appendices or in one of the books published post-mortem by his son. he said that they were few, compared with the males, and that furthermore being as stubborn as their men, often if they couldn't have the male they wanted they would have none at all, so that the rate of marriage and procreation was even lower than the gender imbalance would suggest. It's there that the line Gimli uses in the film about the women being "so alike in voice and appearance, that the rumour arose that there were no dwarf women" was written.

Ah-ha!

Thanks, Fitz.

I'm not sure why, but I usually steer clear of 'women-stuff' during my gaming anyway.

[Fitz]

It's been some time since I've read LOTR, but I'm pretty sure there was a pretty strict distinction between Uruk-hai and the sort of rabble bred in Mordor. It would stand to reason that Olog-hai were somewhat better than regular trolls, as well.

From the man himself, in Appendix F:
"Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In Sindarin it was orch. Related, no doubt, was the word Urûk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Urûk-hai, snaga 'slave'"

and

"Troll has been used to translate the Sindarin Torog ....... at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master : a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them. They spoke little, and the only tongue that they knew was the Black Speech of Barad-dur."

So, you're right that the Olog-hai were genetically-engineered uber-trolls. The Uruk-hai look to me to be less a separate genus from orcdom in general, and more like the difference between, say, an elite regiment of infantry and a conscript or penal regiment: they're going to get better equipment, better training, better food and so forth, and thus be more effective fighters.

[Savinien]

Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them. They spoke little, and the only tongue that they knew was the Black Speech of Barad-dur."

Soo... To extrapolate... Can Olog-hai no longer bear the shine of the sun without turning to stone? Or, does the will of Sauron still hold sway? I wouldn't think so only a century into the Fourth Age...

[Fitz]

I'd guess, reading between the lines, that they had more in common with orcs in that respect; although they hate the sunlight, they'll endure it as long as they're forced to (by Sauron, or anyone else powerful enough to dominate them). I don't think, from the way that they're described, that sunlight is actually fatal to them, as it was to the older Torog, but they'd certainly avoid it if they possibly could. They'd probably also have an aversion to any bright light.

[Captain Obvious]

From the man himself, in Appendix F:
"Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In Sindarin it was orch. Related, no doubt, was the word Urûk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Urûk-hai, snaga 'slave'"




It seems to me that this is still open to interpretation. You could say (and I would say) that this paragraph refers to three types of orcs. The Uruk (great soldier-orcs of Mordor), the Uruk-hai (created by Saruman and called Half-orcs in one of those appendices), and the snaga (the lesser kinds).

BTW I would also say that these snaga never show up per se in any of the books, since they were probably considered to be fit only for tending pigs and other drudge work.

[Fitz]

It seems to me that this is still open to interpretation. You could say (and I would say) that this paragraph refers to three types of orcs. The Uruk (great soldier-orcs of Mordor), the Uruk-hai (created by Saruman and called Half-orcs in one of those appendices), and the snaga (the lesser kinds).

You could say that, but since Tolkien goes on directly to talk about the Uruk-hai generically, referring to orcs coming out of both Mordor and Isengard, I'd say that you'd be pushing the point further than it was designed to stretch.

BTW I would also say that these snaga never show up per se in any of the books, since they were probably considered to be fit only for tending pigs and other drudge work.

Well, you'd be wrong there. There's a scene during Sam and Frodo's trek across Mordor in which they overhear two orcs quarreling: the smaller one (tracker and archer) is referred to by the larger as "snaga", and the argument is concluded by the snaga putting an arrow through the eye of the uruk.

[Captain Obvious]

Look at Fitz with the big brain! You're right, of course.

Hmm..I wonder if that guy was an actual snaga, or just took it as a mortal insult especially since he might not have been much higher ranking than a snaga....

[Curufea]

There also various discussions in the Tolkein societies about the creation of Orcs from the torturing/killing of Elves.

[Nevenall]

Warning, long post.


I've thought about Middle Earth magic a bit.
I don't have too many conclusions, but I've collected some interesting bits about Gandalf using magic. In particular the attempt at crossing the Red Horn Gate and the later journey through Moria.

To bring back the point about magic being draining, Gandalf was only really drained after he attempted to put a shutting spell on the door of the chamber of Mazabul (sp?) and his spell was countered by the Balrog.

I believe that most of the time Gandalf did not wish to use his magic because it would reveal him to the enemy. In the attempt on the Red Horn Gate they could light no fire until G used magic and he made some comment like, I've pretty much sent up a Gandalf beacon. I don't recall the exact range that he gives, but he gives something in relation to the Anduin River.

Also in that chapter the Company is half buried in snow and when Legolas suggests that G melt the snow with a hot flame G says that he must have something to work with, "I cannot burn snow." So, he can light wood, because wood is something that could be lit. Snow he cannot work against.
And keep in mind that all of Gandalf's fire magic comes from the red ring of fire which is one of the three elven rings and was given to him by the elf lord of the Gray Havens, Cirdan. Come to think of it. That explains why G is reluctant to use it becuase of the close connection between those who bear the three and the mind of Sauron.

When Gandalf is attempting to find the words to open the doors to Moria he says that he once knew every phrase that was ever used for such a purpose. Or something to that effect, now that is a lore master.
He also puts words of guard and guiding on Bill the Pony.

I really like the lore master flavor of Middle earth wizard magic, and there is a lot of interesting bits in the books themselves. However, I don't think Tolkien ever took a creative course where he would have been encouraged to come up with some kind of logically coherient magic system and to think out all the implications of that system and so on and so on. Which I am extremely grateful for BTW, but it means that piecing together a coherent magic system for an RPG can be difficult.

[Chiba Bob]

Seeing that the Fourth Age of Middle Earth is the age of men, instead of trying to figure out how magic worked before, could not men have discover their own kind of magic? Something more traditional along the lines of the Hero System? Maybe more of a sword and sorcery system than the traditional high fantasy system? Maybe human magic users are called something different than a "Wizard" such as a "Sorcerer" or "Warlock" so they are not confused with those who came before.


:rockon:

[Savinien]

Seeing that the Fourth Age of Middle Earth is the age of men, instead of trying to figure out how magic worked before, could not men have discover their own kind of magic? Something more traditional along the lines of the Hero System? Maybe more of a sword and sorcery system than the traditional high fantasy system? Maybe human magic users are called something different than a "Wizard" such as a "Sorcerer" or "Warlock" so they are not confused with those who came before.

Fairly close to what I may end up doing, Chiba Bob. At this point, we've finished a single character. He's a Dwarf Mason from Gimli's Glittering Cave colony that made his way to help rebuild the broken sections of Minas Tirith. I don't have his charsheet with me, but I'll like post it in the next couple of days.

I have an idea for a solo story with him, but I can't post details here. His player reads this board, and especially this thread. You'll have to wait until after the session. I'm considering trying to write some prose chronicling the events of the Fourth Age campaign.

Try to give something back, don't you know?

[Mutant for Hire]

Actually, technically, from the viewpoint of what magic really is, it isn't fading from Middle Earth. What happened was that the One Ring and the works of all the lesser Rings went away. Technically the arts of the Elves that didn't depend on the Rings didn't fade, nor would the ability to tap into black sorcery have faded either.

Men are less expert at the arts of Elvish magic (though possibly not black sorcery) than the Elves were, the art of subcreation. Or more precisely the lore of subcreation was fading from Middle Earth as the Elves departed and the lore that Men knew faded down the generations. But the Numenoreans were quite advanced in their arts and in theory ordinary men, though of lesser span might be able to develop those arts.

[TheQuestionMan]

Mystics in the Lord of the Rings Universe obviously existed. How else do you explain the Witch-king of Angmar, a guise of the Lord of the Nazgûl.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/

Cheers

QM

[Markdoc]

Mystics in the Lord of the Rings Universe obviously existed. How else do you explain the Witch-king of Angmar, a guise of the Lord of the Nazgûl

Umm.... because he was a Nazgûl, and therefore a quasi-creation of Sauron, a semi-divine being?

When it comes down to Tolkein's own material, there's precious little in the way of actual sorcery. We have a few magical widgets (rings, palantir, etc) a few beings with powers (Numenoreans, both black white and possibly piebald) who lived a long time: but that's a legacy of their earlier gift from the gods.

After all, Gandalf - also a divine being - can go toe to toe with a Balrog, but does he cast Tasha's Uncontrollable Laughter on him? Nah, he gets stuck in with a sword and finally ends up doing a WWF number on his ass and throwing him down a hillside (well, sorta). So he's tough, but in terms of actual magical power he's right up there with a 2nd or 3rd level DnD magic-user. He manages burning hands on the wargs in the Hobbit and casting hold portal in the LOTR pretty much exhausts his spellcasting ability.

But what about the witchking? He's gotta have magical powers - he has "witch" in his name, right? Well, maybe. But I see no mention of broomsticks or spells. In germanic/Scandanavian languages - with which Tolkein had a passing familiarity - the name simply carries the connotation "scary bad king" - for which he certainly qualifies.

Even Morgoth, the uber-baddy, can make things out of other thing (giant wolves, bat-things, dragons, magical weapons, etc) but doesn't seem to cast spells per se. When Fingolfin comes to challenge him, he doesn't want to come out to play - but when he does, he comes in armour with a mace. What, he can't even manage a magic missile spell?

So yeah, you could add in more magic. But frankly I can't see why, unless you want to play D and D on a map of Middle Earth. I'd restrict characters to making magical items and Talents - Elves get long life and some pretty keen enhanced senses, dwarves get plenty of body hair.... well, maybe that's more a special effect. :)

cheers,Mark

[Outsider]

Gandalf's use of the sword in dealing with the Balrog might not be because he lacked power, but because (as he stated) he has to have something to work with. Can't just kill a Balrog out of thin air, but he can work on a sword to make it extra deadly, and deadly even to something like a Balrog.

A friend of mine also had the theory that Gandalf rarely (only against the Balrog, basically) used his full power, since the point of sending the Istari at all was not merely to defeat Sauron, Power to Power, but to stir the free people of Middle Earth to oppose evil, and to teach them that they had the ability to defeat evil within themselves, without having to appeal to the Powers. The Scouring of the Shire is basically the same thing writ small. Gandalf knows there is trouble there, but declines to go with the hobbits to set things straight, telling them, more or less, that dealing with such things is precisely what they've been being trained to do.

Still, the bad guys arent so limited, and it would seem like they would be using every Ka-boom type spell at their disposal, if they could, and they dont. This could be a result of the fact that the unlimited sorts are also the lead from behind sort, and rarely come into direct conflict with others.

[Chiba Bob]

After all, Gandalf - also a divine being - can go toe to toe with a Balrog, but does he cast Tasha's Uncontrollable Laughter on him? Nah, he gets stuck in with a sword and finally ends up doing a WWF number on his ass and throwing him down a hillside (well, sorta). So he's tough, but in terms of actual magical power he's right up there with a 2nd or 3rd level DnD magic-user. He manages burning hands on the wargs in the Hobbit and casting hold portal in the LOTR pretty much exhausts his spellcasting ability.


In D&D terms, Gandalf is a buff mage if I ever saw one. He uses his magic to enhance his physical combat capabilities and defenses rather than throwing fireballs around. I have played a few in my day. I would have to say that he would have to be of fairly high level to be able to battle a Balrog by himself. I have never seen a 2nd or 3rd level D&D mage ever take on such a monster and survive. Just because Gandalf didn't cast Tasha's Uncontrollable Laughter, does not necessary mean he can't.

:rockon:

[Outsider]

Hah.. I remember back in the day I got mega-hot on an AD&D character (destined to be the party mage) and got 3 (yes 3!) 18s to play with, along with a 16, and two lesser numbers. INT and DEX got 18s, of course, and I tossed the 16 into CON, as higher than that didnt give a hit point bonus to a mage. The last 18 I put in STR, just for giggles, which made me stronger than either of the party warrior types.

Unfortunately, it also made me the best door breaker in the party, which I only realized the true horror of the first time I broke open a door and realized that I was in front and had the full attention of a crowd of POed monsters :(

[Markdoc]

In D&D terms, Gandalf is a buff mage if I ever saw one. He uses his magic to enhance his physical combat capabilities and defenses rather than throwing fireballs around. I have played a few in my day. I would have to say that he would have to be of fairly high level to be able to battle a Balrog by himself. I have never seen a 2nd or 3rd level D&D mage ever take on such a monster and survive. Just because Gandalf didn't cast Tasha's Uncontrollable Laughter, does not necessary mean he can't.

:rockon:

Well that's kinda the point. Gandalf's buff, no doubt about it. But he's clearly not a mage in the DnD lotsa spells way. No second level mage is going to go toe to toe with a Balrog - well, not for more than one combat round anyway :D

But all of these high level types - Gandalf, Sauron, the Witch king himself, Morgoth, all the various Noldor princes, uncle Tom Cobbly an' all - they've all got powers. They can all make or do clearly magical stuff. Gandalf has this "annoying old guy who knows a lot of the plot" power for example - he can tell when things are happening at a distance and make a good guess at the future. He can cast a few low power spells: light, hold portal, "set fire to pine cones", etc. Aragorn can heal. Luthien can cast a sleep spell by singing. But when it comes down to fighting enemies, their approach - one and all - is to hit them with a pointy piece of metal.

I doubt very much that it's the metal "giving their magic something to work on" - Gandalf drops his sword (probably didn't want to spoil the finish) and does in the Balrog with his bare hands. Several other powerful characters resort to wrestling their foes too - that's how Morgoth was brought down.

This is hard to model - Tolkein was probably thinking about spiritual combat, since I see no indication Gandalf has 80 STR and if he had 30 resistant PD he wouldn't be fussed by a bunch of orcs. Given that he was a) well known as a wizard and b) perfectly willing to cast magic and C) happy to kill evil creatures like orcs or balrogs when they got in his way, I can't see him having much compunction about zapping them - if he could.

Morgoth was certainly under no compunction about not using magic or fighting fair - but he's also in the "hit it with a mace" camp when it comes to combat.

cheers, Mark

[Savinien]

Well that's kinda the point. Gandalf's buff, no doubt about it. But he's clearly not a mage in the DnD lotsa spells way. No second level mage is going to go toe to toe with a Balrog - well, not for more than one combat round anyway :D

But all of these high level types - Gandalf, Sauron, the Witch king himself, Morgoth, all the various Noldor princes, uncle Tom Cobbly an' all - they've all got powers. They can all make or do clearly magical stuff. Gandalf has this "annoying old guy who knows a lot of the plot" power for example - he can tell when things are happening at a distance and make a good guess at the future. He can cast a few low power spells: light, hold portal, "set fire to pine cones", etc. Aragorn can heal. Luthien can cast a sleep spell by singing. But when it comes down to fighting enemies, their approach - one and all - is to hit them with a pointy piece of metal.

I doubt very much that it's the metal "giving their magic something to work on" - Gandalf drops his sword (probably didn't want to spoil the finish) and does in the Balrog with his bare hands. Several other powerful characters resort to wrestling their foes too - that's how Morgoth was brought down.

This is hard to model - Tolkein was probably thinking about spiritual combat, since I see no indication Gandalf has 80 STR and if he had 30 resistant PD he wouldn't be fussed by a bunch of orcs. Given that he was a) well known as a wizard and b) perfectly willing to cast magic and C) happy to kill evil creatures like orcs or balrogs when they got in his way, I can't see him having much compunction about zapping them - if he could.

Morgoth was certainly under no compunction about not using magic or fighting fair - but he's also in the "hit it with a mace" camp when it comes to combat.

cheers, Mark

So, what does all this mean in character building guidelines? (Or world building for that matter!)

[Chiba Bob]

So, what does all this mean in character building guidelines? (Or world building for that matter!)


It all means zip, we are all just digressing.

:ugly:

[Savinien]

It all means zip, we are all just digressing.

:ugly:

That's weak. I'm on an agenda here...

[tkdguy]

This has nothing to do with magic; it's actually a science project. But you may find this useful, especially the maps.

http://sun.menloschool.org/~dspence/arda/

Edit: This website isn't quite complete. Either the class is ongoing, or the project was discontinued. Still, you may find the map to your liking.

[Dr. Evil]

[QUOTE=Curufea]
The Valar are the Gods of Middle Earth - all children of Illuvatar - the father-type God. Including Melkor/Morgoth. The oft quoted Gilthonial and Elbereth for the various songs and even, you could argue, the incantation to activate the Phial of Galdriel, were two of the Valar. Also note - Illuvatar made the Elves (and the Humans), but one of his children made the Dwarfs. I don't know where Ents or Hobbits came from.
QUOTE]

I agree. Eru is the One God; the Creator of All Things, the Singer of the Song of Arda. Therefore, I'd make him a Greater God (or Power, by D&D standards) . I'd say that the Valar are Intermediate Powers, and the Maiar are Lesser Powers (servants).

Or, in 'Angel'-terms...Eru is the One, the Creator. The Valar are Greater angels, like Michael, Gabriel, etc., and the Maiar are like the Nephilim: angels that walk in the World of Men.

[Outsider]

The Valar are the Gods of Middle Earth - all children of Illuvatar - the father-type God. Including Melkor/Morgoth. The oft quoted Gilthonial and Elbereth for the various songs and even, you could argue, the incantation to activate the Phial of Galdriel, were two of the Valar. Also note - Illuvatar made the Elves (and the Humans), but one of his children made the Dwarfs. I don't know where Ents or Hobbits came from.


Just to clarify...
Illuvatar made, in full, The Valar, The Maiar, Elves, Men. And Ents, though the way their origin story was written in the Silmarillion (of Aule and Yavanna) doesnt make it clear if they were part of the plan from the outset, or if Illuvatar used his omnipotence to add them to the plan all along after the fact. Hobbits are, I think, a variety of Men. Not mentioned in the Silmarillion at all, actually.

Dwarves, on the other hand, came about this way :

Aule of the Valar made Dwarves, but it was beyond his authority to do so, and beyond his power to breathe souls into them such that they were mroe than mere automatons. When found out he apologized for exceeding his authority, explained that he greatly desired the coming of elves and men that he might have things other than what he was to love and to teach, and thus tried to make some as he understood the plan. And, though he loved his creations, they were not within his authority to create, so he moved to destroy them. Illuvatar, though, was compassionate, accepted the sincerity of his apology, and granted the Dwarves souls. But required that they be lain into a sleep, not to awaken until after the Elves, the planned firstborn children, had come to be. Thus, which race is 'eldest' is a bit of a point of contention between Dwarves an Elves.

[Curufea]

Thus, which race is 'eldest' is a bit of a point of contention between Dwarves an Elves.

That - and the Elves scribbling insults all over one their doors to their greatest underground city :)
Calling it "The Black Abyss" and all...

[tkdguy]

My interpretation is that the Dwarves' bodies were made first, but the Elves were given life first; thus, they are the Firstborn.

I vaguely remember reading about the Elves having been created already, but their bodies were still asleep. Either that or an Elf found the race of Men in that state.

[Markdoc]

So, what does all this mean in character building guidelines? (Or world building for that matter!)

Well for me it means that spellcasters of the "Fazoom! That's 20 dead orcs" kind don't exist.

Those races with "magical powers" get some limited talents and actual sorcerer types (who are referred to) get to make magic items (swords that detect orcs and are really sharp, that kinda stuff.)

Since these items are clearly independant, that means players have to give away their precious XP.s to make stuff. Second, none of the items except the legendary rings seem to have great powers - and even their power was relatively low key. So I'd be inclined to place a lot of powers on a restricted list - no teleport, no flight, no energy blast, etc.

That should keep magic use under control and lead to a more Tolkien-y feeling.

cheers, Mark

[Savinien]

Sorry all, after a discussion last night. I'm reviving my plans for this game. Since this was before Valdorian Age came out, what do you all think about Sorecery being used in the Fourth Age?

[DrTemp]

Sorry all, after a discussion last night. I'm reviving my plans for this game. Since this was before Valdorian Age came out, what do you all think about Sorecery being used in the Fourth Age?

That could work, in a way, but of course, you'd have to devise supernatural beings of some kind for the opposing sides.

From the background, however, this does not seem to be how Tolkien's magic works. Most of the time, Tolkien's magic seems to be either actual technology or simple low-power-spells.

[Savinien]

That could work, in a way, but of course, you'd have to devise supernatural beings of some kind for the opposing sides.

From the background, however, this does not seem to be how Tolkien's magic works. Most of the time, Tolkien's magic seems to be either actual technology or simple low-power-spells.

Right. I know it isn't the way the magic worked in the past, but this is a New Age. An Age of men and a progressingly advancing withdrawl of things supernatural. I was sort of thinking the Evil That Is might have come up with a new method of 'tempting' humanity.

I haven't read anything yet, I was hoping to get some input from the masses. And, those more enlightened than myself. Besides, why not have some discussion?

[Savinien]

So... We may actually have a game tomorrow night. We're planning on playing this and I've been searching for maps/pics/ideas concerning Osgiliath.

I am setting the game a few hundred years into the 4th Age. The Great Host has long since returned and it is now time to turn noble eyes inward. Osgilith was rebuilt, but never to its previous splendor before the Kin-Strife. Now, EllesarII (an old man now) has called in old markers and requested the Masons of the Glittering Caves to help rebuild Osgiliath.

The plot hooks I'm currently working on deal with political upheaval against the Return of the King. There are those that feel DenethorII was treated unfairly and even though Faramir was given the Ithilien feifdome, it is not enough. An insurgent group wants to put the Steward of Gondor once more in power. They have found some pockets of Old Gondor beneath some higher land on the Eastern Bank (a manor house has survived intact. They are using it as their HQ).

The Palantir Stone was lost in the Anduin a long time ago. What if something of the evil of Sauron survived within the Palantir? This being the largest and assumingly most powerful. His treachery and the danger of unrest have finally brought Evil back once more into the world.

So, I'm looking for maps of Osgiliath. Anyone help?

[Markdoc]

So, I'm looking for maps of Osgiliath. Anyone help?

Here you go. (Courtesy of theonering.net)

cheers, Mark

[Savinien]

Awesome! Incredible! Can't Say Enough Good Things!!!

[Savinien]

I have two characters, as I've mentioned briefly. One, is a young dwarf from the Glittering Caves. He's a mason and accompanied a small group that was enlisted by Ellasr II. Since the cleansing of Ellasar's father and Faramir is finished, it is time for the rebuilding Elasar always wanted to do. The dwarves are here to help with the reconstruction of Osgiliath and the deconstruction of Minas Morgul.

Durmak son of Gramdal of the Glittering Caves is young. The other dwarves are not happy about his accompanying him, but he has recently 'come of age'. His choices are his own, but they don't have to like it.

Mortilmir is a distant cousin of Barahir III, Prince of Ithilien. He's only recently reached the age of manhood. He's been trained well in the arts of war and has recently attained Corporal of Osgiliath Militia. He's too green for command and the other noble officers snub him while the commisioned men don't yet trust him. He needs to prove himself somehow.

A minor house of South Ithilien, along the south-eastern edge of Emyn Arnen has called in a favor. The Lord there, Franjek, had just enough pull to get Berethor III to send a dwarven engineer to help with his wife's anniversary present. The dwarves send Durmak and Mortilmir is his guide, with a couple cavarly soldiers.

Unknown to any of them... The Sons of Denethor have long thought Elesar was not the rightful King. His eyes were everywhere but on Gondor itself. They hope to stage a coups and put Barahir on the throne. Since, he seems unswayable, assassinating him and putting a puppet on the throne may be the better method.

They've coerced Lord Franjek (who may or may not be involved in the plot) that a dwarf was needed for the Garden. Pulling strings and manipulating, they got Mortilmir to be involved. They kidnap both for ransom (or something else).

Anyway, I'm bringing the story out into the 'wilds' of Emyn Arnen. I'm thinking of involving the Hall of Hurin and some hidden something or other as they attempt to escape and learn of the plot vs. Elesar. I'll continue with the plotting and eventually drop the man behind it all... A Black Numenorean sorcerer that attempts to resurrect the Witch-King of Angmar (a la Mutant for Hire's plotting above).

Thoughts?

[Savinien]

Osgiliath:

Using the map so kindly displayed by Marcdoc, what do you think everything is? It seems to be in a slightly different position than I've seen on any other maps. The river Anduin is barely over half a mile wide and most description put it at a mile. I don't see the Dome of Stars, either. Further, it shows Osgilitiath incorporating the River Morgulduin...

What do you all think of that?

[More later]

[tkdguy]

It sounds like a really interesting campaign, Savinien. Here are a couple of ideas you may find useful:

Read or reread Machiaveilli's work The Prince. It has a few thoughts on taking power and holding on to it.

Also, as many years have passed since the War of the Ring, how about raising the technology level a bit? In stead of a medieval society, Gondor is in the early stages of the Renaissance (although it can be argued that Aragorn/Elessar could have brought that about). Primitive firearms and cannons will be available to the military. And while the army still uses broadswords, civilians will fight with rapiers.

[Savinien]

Hmmm... That isn't a bad idea...

We started the game last night, though and I haven't mentioned anything like this. I could have a new danger coming with that sort of thing. Perhaps Easterlings or the Haradrim were the first to learn such things. A new raiding technique first seen in Southern Ithilien leading to the group having to board the ship and steal the tech?

Thanks tkdguy! More food for thought!

[Outsider]

I wouldnt change the tech in Middle Earth to include gunpowder as a thing known to and used by men, except perhaps by wizards on special occasions or in special circumstances.

Widespread use among men would be against the genre as much as adding steam power, factories, or any of the other trappings of the modern age.

[Savinien]

I wouldnt change the tech in Middle Earth to include gunpowder as a thing known to and used by men, except perhaps by wizards on special occasions or in special circumstances.

Widespread use among men would be against the genre as much as adding steam power, factories, or any of the other trappings of the modern age.

It depends on what you were trying to do. Presumably, Middle Earth's tech level would eventually change. I'm expecting that for later ages, though I wouldn't write out the possibility in late Fourth Age.

But, that's an altogether different story.

[Outsider]

It might, but then, it might not.

The 2nd and 3rd Ages were about 6500 years total, and the tech didnt really change at all, except to degrade, perhaps.

[tkdguy]

However, the significance of the War of the Ring is that it signalled the end of the mythical era and the beginning of the historic era. And since the Wizards knew about gunpowder, perhaps that knowledge survived or was recently discovered. I wouldn't put any steam tech, but there were mills built in the Shire under Saruman's reign, so a few technological may not be totally out of order.

Keep in mind I'm just throwing out these suggestions to give a twist on how Middle Earth would be like after the Third Age. It's meant for flavor, so GMs can put their own spin on it or disregard it completely according to their tastes.

[Savinien]

Understood, and I thank you for that.

Outsider, your opinion is important and I can see the PoV of trying to keep to a particular tech level within the subject matter. As I'm pushing well past almost anything ever represented by "Canon", I can easily see where differing opinions will exist.

I am using Radagast's Browbacks as a sort of Druidic Order from the East. I haven't decided what they're capable of game mechanically but, they're known as 'sorcerer's up to this point. That could either be their enigmatic hooded cloaks, or something else entirely.

I'm also going with SOME magic remeniscent of what existed in the books. Game-mechanically, I haven't decided what that is either. Whheee. At the rate the first session went, I won't have to worry about it for a few months, still.

[Savinien]

As for the game itself...

I underpowered the opponents and my PCs and their NPCs destroyed the opposition with little difficulty. Now, I need another way of making them brave the unknown without the powers of their rank. I'm considering having the SoD frame them for something, making them outlaws while the SoD continues their work against Elesar II, unhindered and under the radar.

[Markdoc]

Osgiliath:

Using the map so kindly displayed by Marcdoc, what do you think everything is? It seems to be in a slightly different position than I've seen on any other maps. The river Anduin is barely over half a m