My take on the Light Sabre

[MisterVimes]

... or Force Weapon of your choice

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost  </b></td><td><b>Equipment</b></td><td align="right"><b>END</b></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">45  </td><td><b><i>Force Weapon: </i></b>(Total: 125 Active Cost, 45 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6 +1 (plus STR) (vs. ED), +1 STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), No Normal Defense (Force Fields and Force Walls; +1), Does BODY (+1) (75 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum (10; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Required Hands (One-And-A-Half-Handed; -1/4) (Real Cost: 25) plus Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack; Missile Reflection, Reflect At Any Target) (50 Active Points); OAF (-1), Required Hands (One-And-A-Half-Handed; -1/4), Limited Power (Real Weapon; -1/4) (Real Cost: 20) [<b>Notes:</b> 1d6+1 HKA (+STR)
NND: Force fields/Walls;
Missile Deflect on OCV vs. OCV roll;
37,500 CR] </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr></table>

[keithcurtis]

I'd like to comment, but the white text on light grey background is unreadable. :)

Keith "set in his ways" Curtis

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by keithcurtis
I'd like to comment, but the white text on light grey background is unreadable. :)

Keith "set in his ways" Curtis

Um... I see white on DARK gray...

[C_Zeree]

Philisohical debate: If the blade is made from light/force/whatever, and it cuts through everything like butter, should a character really be able to do more damage based on how strong they are?

I have argued with my friend over the fact. I would set the HKA at a level and give the mod STR does not add to damage.

I like the thought of extra damage based on DEX. Different, but a more dexterous character could really carve up their opponent. But OCV does sort of take that into account.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by C_Zeree
Philisohical debate: If the blade is made from light/force/whatever, and it cuts through everything like butter, should a character really be able to do more damage based on how strong they are?

I have argued with my friend over the fact. I would set the HKA at a level and give the mod STR does not add to damage.

I like the thought of extra damage based on DEX. Different, but a more dexterous character could really carve up their opponent. But OCV does sort of take that into account.

Good point. You could make it a 2 - 3d6 RKA (with no range) instead

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by C_Zeree
Philisohical debate: If the blade is made from light/force/whatever, and it cuts through everything like butter, should a character really be able to do more damage based on how strong they are?

I have argued with my friend over the fact. I would set the HKA at a level and give the mod STR does not add to damage.


Yeah, except the actors really seemed to put a lot of muscle into it whenever they swung those things. Otherwise, why hold them with two hands?

[Shadowpup]

I'm fairly certain that STR does matter for Lightsabers. Sure they can cut through anything but that doesn't mean that it does so efortlessly. Qui Gon cutting through blast door as example. It looked like he was puttin some mucle into the effort.

Missile Deflection/Reflection is a funtion of the user not the weapon. It might require a Lightsaber to block a blaster shot but the Jedi will not suddenly forget how to block arrows if he's holding a normal sword.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
Um... I see white on DARK gray...

Ok...ok...
White on <i>slightly</i> less light gray...
about a 32% gray AAMOF. Not particularly dark.
:)

Keith "Still can't read it unless I select the text" Curtis

PS. This is a completely spurious and facetious gripe for the humor-impaired. Go back to chopping off people's arms in bar fights.

[Aroooo]

Originally posted by C_Zeree
Philisohical debate: If the blade is made from light/force/whatever, and it cuts through everything like butter, should a character really be able to do more damage based on how strong they are?

I have argued with my friend over the fact. I would set the HKA at a level and give the mod STR does not add to damage.

I like the thought of extra damage based on DEX. Different, but a more dexterous character could really carve up their opponent. But OCV does sort of take that into account.

WEG's Star Wars had Light Saber Combat as a Force power. Anyone could wield the weapon, and do its standard damage. But someone trained in the Force could add (part of) their Force skill dice to the weapon's damage.

Often wondered how you'd do that in Hero. Maybe weapon as described (with the STR does not add damage), PLUS extra damage classes, up to your ECV level (to represent Force ability) (-1 limitation).

Aroooo

[Shadowpup]

Originally posted by Aroooo
WEG's Star Wars had Light Saber Combat as a Force power. Anyone could wield the weapon, and do its standard damage. But someone trained in the Force could add (part of) their Force skill dice to the weapon's damage.

Often wondered how you'd do that in Hero. Maybe weapon as described (with the STR does not add damage), PLUS extra damage classes, up to your ECV level (to represent Force ability) (-1 limitation).

Aroooo

Naw, again it's the user not the weapon. You said so yourself. It's just CSLs used to increase damage. Maybe 'Only With Lightsaber'

[Aroooo]

Originally posted by Shadowpup
Naw, again it's the user not the weapon. You said so yourself. It's just CSLs used to increase damage. Maybe 'Only With Lightsaber'

Yeah, you're right. Make it part of the character's Force "package."

I've been working on ships too much lately. Everything's starting to look like equipment :)

Aroooo

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by keithcurtis
Ok...ok...
White on <i>slightly</i> less light gray...
about a 32% gray AAMOF. Not particularly dark.
:)

Keith "Still can't read it unless I select the text" Curtis

PS. This is a completely spurious and facetious gripe for the humor-impaired. Go back to chopping off people's arms in bar fights.

You just watch yourself. We're wanted men. I have the death sentence on twelve systems.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Shadowpup
Missile Deflection/Reflection is a funtion of the user not the weapon. It might require a Lightsaber to block a blaster shot but the Jedi will not suddenly forget how to block arrows if he's holding a normal sword.

Yeah, good point. I was trying this more for a heroic level star hero game.... perhaps 'requires skill roll' to simulate needing to be a master to use it (I know that the ocv/ocv attack roll is needed as well, obviously)

[Shadowpup]

Missile Deflection isn't all that expensive. Getting to the "Can Deflect Anything" level is expensive. However, the last 5 points should have "Only With Lightsaber".

The thing is that while using a Lightsaber the Adder of Missile Reflection should only work with energy based attacks. I would rule that bullets arrows and thrown things just get vaporized by the Lightsaber so cannot be reflected. Adding the "Not vs Heavy Missiles" would be good too. Jedi seem to dodge cannon fire (or die from it) rather than block it with their Lightsabers.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Shadowpup
Missile Deflection isn't all that expensive. Getting to the "Can Deflect Anything" level is expensive. However, the last 5 points should have "Only With Lightsaber".

The thing is that while using a Lightsaber the Adder of Missile Reflection should only work with energy based attacks. I would rule that bullets arrows and thrown things just get vaporized by the Lightsaber so cannot be reflected. Adding the "Not vs Heavy Missiles" would be good too. Jedi seem to dodge cannon fire (or die from it) rather than block it with their Lightsabers.

All excelent points... I'll look at modifying the construct

[Gary]

How would you simulate that it really can't be Blocked by shields or conventional weapons? Penalty skill levels to opponents OCV only to cancel out opponent's shield or block bonuses not vs other light sabers?

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Honestly, the Star Hero version really does work well. I hate having to buy the damn thing for a superheroic campaign, though; it eats up a whole sh!tload of points.

For the Force, I built it using a VPP: 0-Phase Action (+1), Slightly Limited Class (-1/4). All powers have at least one Requires Skill Roll (Control, Sense, Alter) or a combination of them.

For the weapon itself, however, the Star Hero writeup I prefer is the one sans the Force Screen. Re-sketched here:

RKA 3d6, NND (ED Force Field/Force Wall or other energy blade, +1), Does BODY (+1), Reduced Endurance (0 END, +1/2) (157 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2) (total cost: 63 Points) plus RKA 2d6, NND (ED Force Field/Force Wall or other energy blade, +1), Does BODY (+1), Continuous (+1), Damage Shield (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END, +1/2) (150 Active Points); OAF (-1), Linked (-1/4, to first RKA), Only Affects Material Objects Which Strike Blade (-1/2) (total cost: 54 points).

I think one could also apply Beam (-1/4) and No Knockback (-1/4) to both of these. Stylistically, I also would put the Missile Deflection with this. Agreed, a Jedi can probably deflect arrows, bullets, or, going by Vader's example, blaster bolts only with his hand; however, I'd let the Jedi to 'purchase' that through the VPP if he didn't have the lightsaber handy. Otherwise, the Jedi, if he has a lightsaber in hand, should pretty much always be able to deflect bolts and such ...

[Aroooo]

I probably missed this in another thread, and its late, so I'm going to ask a potentially dumb question anyway...

Why buy it as an RKA with no range, etc., and not just a HKA?

Aroooo

[JmOz]

I have a Champions character with a Lightsaber type weapon, this is how I did it:

1d6+1 HKA, AVLD:ForceFields (+3/4), Does Body (+1), 0 End (+1/2), AP (+1/2)

[Rick]

Well cinematicly LightSabers are definitly NND/Does Body. In a game though I'd go ap/pen, nothing in starwars is Hardened apparently. I would just consider all Enery shielding hardened.

[Shadowpup]

Originally posted by Aroooo
I probably missed this in another thread, and its late, so I'm going to ask a potentially dumb question anyway...

Why buy it as an RKA with no range, etc., and not just a HKA?

Aroooo

Because they wanted to simulate that STR has little to do with how much damage a Lightsaber does. I'd say they were correct in this. Yoda doesn't look strong at all but he can kick butt with a Lightsaber.

[Aroooo]

Originally posted by Shadowpup
Because they wanted to simulate that STR has little to do with how much damage a Lightsaber does. I'd say they were correct in this. Yoda doesn't look strong at all but he can kick butt with a Lightsaber.

Now that you mention it, I do remember reading that point in the other thread.

I hope the Easter candy goes away soon, I've got to get off this sugar high :)

Aroooo

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Originally posted by Rick
Well cinematicly LightSabers are definitly NND/Does Body. In a game though I'd go ap/pen, nothing in starwars is Hardened apparently. I would just consider all Enery shielding hardened.

Well, that's how I started out doing mine, but when I picked up the Star Hero book and saw their version, I nodded and said, 'Yeah, that's it.' And I disagree; a lot in Star Wars can be considered Hardened, particularly a lot of the 'scale' weapons. A lightsaber, on the other hand, can go through virtually anything without really working up a sweat, Qui-Gonn's need to 'work' through the blast doors in 'Phantom Menace' notwithstanding. (For that, well, I'd just judge that blast doors, besides high-DEF and hardened, also have high BODY; gotta work through the BODY in order to get them down. He was, after all, cutting through the regular doors rather fast, and then had to work through both at once.)

If you 'limit' the lightsaber to AP/Penetrating (which I did -- AP + 3xPenentrating) -- it means that you'll PROBABLY always do one or two points of BODY damage. That, unfortunately, doesn't really reflect the wonderful image of the lightsaber just going *VWOOSH!* through practically anything you care to name.

When it comes to the Missile Deflection capabilities, however, I must admit that lightsabers are 'somewhat limited'. They shouldn't be able to deflect non-cohesive attacks (like spit or webs or that sort of thing), nor should they be permitted to reflect any bulky items. Cut through/deflect, sure, but not REflect. And anything that actually DOES get De-/Reflected should (of course) first have that Xd6 damage done to it, to see if it survives. Bullets shouldn't; blaster bolts (i.e. energy) should. The 'damage shield' is, after all, to 'physical objects touching the blade'.

Side note on the lightsaber in a superheroic genre instead of a heroic Star Hero genre: IMO, the NND (+1) should get 'upgraded' to a Limited AVLD. Instead of a +1½ bonus, make it instead a +1¼ bonus, with the AVLD as such: NND vs. ED Force Walls and other Lightsabers, AVLD vs. ED Force Fields. In the superheroic genre there are 'far too many' individuals running around with ED force fields for the 'Jedi Knight' to really be capable of plying his trade; in short, the 'defense' goes from 'three uncommon' to 'two uncommon and one common'. Adding a +1/4 bonus to the NND (or taking off 1/4 from the AVLD) to permit the weapon to be applied like a regular weapon against the FF would make it a bit more balanced. At least IMO.

[Rick]

Sure you can concider things in Star Wars Hardened...but why. Besides the Lightsaber what in Starwars cuts through everything? There is nothing else that is obviously "armor piercing" or obviously "Hardened". Big guns are AE: explosions or AE: hexes W/lot's of dice, blast doors are 20 pts of def: why bog down write ups W/AP and hardened when it's not neccissary.

Yeah Lightsabers are definitly NND Killing attacks in the movies. I think however that in game I'll blaze through fewer PC's W/a 3-4d6 ap penetrating KA as opposed to a 3-4d6 NND Killing attack.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Well, that assumes that you don't have Jedi in your group. It's part of the genre that Jedi go for Sith, and Sith go for Jedi, and if there aren't any of the others they'll go for everyone all at once, using their wacky Force powers to do fun things like TK stuff at you and deflect or reflect your blaster bolts.

It really all depends on how you're going to be playing with your lightsabers, doesn't it? If you don't have any weapons that pierce armor (which, if you're playing the 'space opera' aspect of Star Wars, you don't really need), then you have no need for Hardened materials. If, on the other hand, you have weapons that ARE AP or Penetrating (like you'll have in a 'scavenger/privateer' campaign or a down 'n' dirty SpecOps campaign), then some of the stuff is bound to be resistant to those benefits -- and thus the lightsaber is best considered an NND or Limited AVLD.

IMO, I'd always go with the latter; it hits home that a 'saber is Not A Toy. A training lightsaber, OTOH, should be the same thing -- but without the 'Does Body (+1)' advantage, to be added on later.

[Rick]

Are you kidding me...even if you have Jedi in your group one good shot and pop new Jedi character. Trust me I understand why people actually use the NND version in game...it's frickin cool, I'm just a little concerned W/it's outright Lethality.

[Shadowpup]

ummm...I thought that was the point.

[Rick]

Ummm....yeah sure it's neat story wise but Star Wars isn't all that leathal of a world. So anything I can do to take the edge off possibly one of the most powerful personal weapons in fantasy history so as not to have a revolving door for PC's is the least I can do. Trust me people will be nervous enough about the ap/pen nature of the KA.

[Champsguy]

Waitaminnute...

I'm of the camp that says if I didn't see it, you don't got it. I take a minimalist approach to weapons writeups. What have we actually seen lightsabers do?

Well, they cut arms off pretty good. (various bar scenes)
They cut through random pieces of the scenery, too. (Empire battle on the little bridge thingy, Jedi battle on the catwalks)
They can cut through AT-AT access hatches. (Empire)
They can be used to deflect laser bursts. (all movies)
They can be used to slowly cut through big blast doors. (Episode Suck... I mean Episode 1... no, I do mean Episode Suck)

Now, unless we think that the Star Wars equivalent of a fire escape and a file cabinet have lots of defense, I fail to see where the NND group comes from. This is an energy attack. Where's the justification for an NND? Yes, it cut through the bottom of an AT-AT----probably the weakest section of armor you can find on that thing, and then it was only a small hole for Luke to throw a grenade into. I'd say it's just an energy killing attack, maybe with AP thrown in.

I don't see a lightsaber being able to injure Superman.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Rick
Trust me people will be nervous enough about the ap/pen nature of the KA.

Why, were they planning on getting hit? :D Seriously, you'll notice that no one in the Star Wars universe wears armor that actually does anything. That includes the stormtroopers, who are easily slain with one blaster round, or a basketful of grapefruit-sized stones.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Originally posted by Champsguy
I'm of the camp that says if I didn't see it, you don't got it. I take a minimalist approach to weapons writeups. What have we actually seen lightsabers do?... I'd say it's just an energy killing attack, maybe with AP thrown in.

I don't see a lightsaber being able to injure Superman.
Okay. If that works in your world, it works in your world. In the West End Games Star Wars game, it was framed as a 5d6 attack -- in short, two or three times more powerful than any blaster out there, a hand-held portable heavy blaster cannon. My personal opinion is that the NND/Limited AVLD works in the genre that it is in.

If you want to argue about lightsabers in a superheroic world, feel free. Takes two, though.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Wyrm Ouroboros
Okay. If that works in your world, it works in your world. In the West End Games Star Wars game, it was framed as a 5d6 attack -- in short, two or three times more powerful than any blaster out there, a hand-held portable heavy blaster cannon. My personal opinion is that the NND/Limited AVLD works in the genre that it is in.

If you want to argue about lightsabers in a superheroic world, feel free. Takes two, though.

I'm just wondering what you guys saw that made you think "NND"? None of the people in Star Wars have naturally resistant defenses. The lightsaber didn't do a better job killing stormtroopers than the rocks thrown by Ewoks (actually, I don't think I've ever seen a lightsaber hit a stormtrooper). The only two things even remotely durable that it cut through were the underbelly of the AT-AT and the blast doors in Episode 1.

Again, why NND?

[JmOz]

Because the "Expanded Universe" (Books/comics/etc) have repeatedly said it can cut through anything

I think a big attack could work, or a small special attack

I like the small special better (For actual setting a NND Does Body, for a superhero transplant a AVLD vs ED FF Does Body) as it will allow for some spectacular effects normal weapons will not be able to do (Damage an AT AT, destroy blast doors) while keeping damage reasonable against opponents.

It all comes down to the DC's in the end...

3d6 RKA vs a 1d6 HKA NND, Does Body would be about the same in my opinion, but if everyone else is using 2d6 RKA as blasters, then I far prefer the lower damage with NND

[Champsguy]

Ahh. The expanded universe stuff. I haven't read any of it, so I can't comment. That's cool.

[Shadowpup]

Originally posted by Champsguy

Well, they cut arms off pretty good. (various bar scenes)
They cut through random pieces of the scenery, too. (Empire battle on the little bridge thingy, Jedi battle on the catwalks)
They can cut through AT-AT access hatches. (Empire)
They can be used to deflect laser bursts. (all movies)
They can be used to slowly cut through big blast doors. (Episode Suck... I mean Episode 1... no, I do mean Episode Suck)


I think they wanted to represent that force fields will prevent all damage from lightsabers. If lightsabers could do anything to them, then the lightsaber duel in Episode 1 would have been different. Now that I think about it, that says something about Force powers as well.

You forgot to mention that in addition to chopping off arms, lightsabers also chop off heads and cut bodies in half. I also think that keeping the damage low but with certain advantages prevents things like killing tanks and AT-ATs in one or two swings.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Shadowpup
I think they wanted to represent that force fields will prevent all damage from lightsabers. If lightsabers could do anything to them, then the lightsaber duel in Episode 1 would have been different. Now that I think about it, that says something about Force powers as well.

You forgot to mention that in addition to chopping off arms, lightsabers also chop off heads and cut bodies in half. I also think that keeping the damage low but with certain advantages prevents things like killing tanks and AT-ATs in one or two swings.

Of course, they can also graze Darth Vader in the arm and make him go "argh!" and make a little scratch. :)

Well, I know this is going to be highly unpopular, but I can build this thing without resorting to any Advantages at all. We need:
1. Kills humans good
2. Cuts up small scenery good
3. Can do small amounts of damage to big armored things

So we've got
5D6 RKA
No Range
Reduced Penetration
Reduced Stun Multiple (that's a real Lim in 5th, right?)
Not vs "force fields"

Here's the logic: The big killing attack represents that you can hack through human flesh real easily. If a target has no resistant defense, a lightsaber doesn't seem to have any problem going right through it. You can wave it through soft stuff with no effort. To me, this means high amounts of dice. You could kill Jabba (or most any monster from Fantasy Hero) with two or three swings, and that ain't gonna happen with a little 1D6+1 killing attack with Advantages. Sometimes people only lose a limb, but that's covered by rolling on the hit location chart.
The Reduced Penetration shows how you can have trouble cuttting through AT-ATs and other such big things. Since it's such a big killing attack, it'll still get a little Body through, but you won't be hacking AT-AT legs off (after all, the blade is only so big).
The Reduced Stun Multiple shows that the lightsaber is especially good at doing Body. People aren't ever knocked out by the lightsaber, though it still hurts like a bitch. It's the same as buying some of the dice "only to do Body".
"Force fields" is in quotes (and not capitalized) to represent it's against force field special effects, not necessarily the same as the Force Field power.

This will probably be unpopular as hell, but it's the way I'd see a lightsaber.

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by Shadowpup
You forgot to mention that in addition to chopping off arms, lightsabers also chop off heads and cut bodies in half. I also think that keeping the damage low but with certain advantages prevents things like killing tanks and AT-ATs in one or two swings.

I remember in the first edition of the Star Wars RPG that it seemed totally legal according to the rules to put a Jedi into a space suit, strap him to the hull and have him block all incoming fire from opposing ships. ;)

[Rick]

So we've got
5D6 RKA
No Range
Reduced Penetration
Reduced Stun Multiple (that's a real Lim in 5th, right?)
Not vs "force fields"

How is that minimal compare to 2d6 nnd does body.

When luke hit vader he roled all ones...big deal that's how the rolls go sometime.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

When Luke hit (the first time, Ep. 5 'Empire'), he 'clipped' him. There aren't really any rules for that in Champions, wherein if you hit, you hit, and you do damage. One might suggest that the 'saber Luke was using was only 1d6, and he rolled poorly; whatever. It's accepted that when Luke lopped off Vader's hand (Ep. 6, 'Return'), Vader actually used a Force power to reduce the damage from being killed to being injured/maimed.

In the WEG editions of the SW RPG, it's stated that 'blasters are deadly'. If you're hit but damage isn't done (due to your Body roll), you've been clipped (e.g. Leia at the bunker in Ep. 6) but not really hurt. While ChampsGuy suggests that people (e.g. Stormtroopers) in SW don't have Resistant Defenses, my question is this: have we ever seen a Stormtrooper funeral? Stormtroopers weren't killed by one or two rocks. Overborne, yes, but killed? Captured, I expect. The ones that are constantly blasted throughout the movies, well, we never see them being pulled out of their armor, pulses checked, and given the coup. Hell, they might just be knocked out from the STUN, right? Can Joe Stormtrooper (10rPD) take a mid-to-high 2d6 RKA blaster shot with a 5 or 6 on the Stun die and NOT keel over? Hey, he took no body, but he took 10 * 4 = 40 - 10r = 30 stun...

In any case. What works in your game. It matters to me; I'm running a web-based Dark-Champions-style campaign right now, and my GMC is a 'Jedi' with a lightsaber. My view: consider what you do to Normals. If you do damage equivalent to the heaviest publically available firearm (i.e. shotguns or .50 rifles, 2½d6 RKAs, or 15 BODY at a shot) to the Normal, then that's about the cap on the attack power. It's a very 'street' campaign, so they aren't going to be running into Superman or Iron Man any time soon.

[James Gillen]

Originally posted by Aroooo
WEG's Star Wars had Light Saber Combat as a Force power. Anyone could wield the weapon, and do its standard damage. But someone trained in the Force could add (part of) their Force skill dice to the weapon's damage.

Often wondered how you'd do that in Hero. Maybe weapon as described (with the STR does not add damage), PLUS extra damage classes, up to your ECV level (to represent Force ability) (-1 limitation).

Aroooo

One way: Define 'Lightsaber Combat' as a Martial Art (like the one given for the Energy Sabre in Star Hero) and allow Extra DCs, reflecting the 'Control' aspect for adding dice.

The special effect would be the Jedi's Force ability being focused through the training device of the weapon, since the Jedi use lightsabers to increase their ability in the Force (even though they rarely use the weapons on living targets).

This also means that even if a non-Force sensitive gains proficiency in lightsaber, he wouldn't be eligible to learn the Martial Art.

JG

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Actually, I'm considering making the lightsaber have a 'Minimum Ego' the way other weapons have a 'Minimum Strength'. OCV penalties if you've got a weak mind ...

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Wyrm Ouroboros
It's accepted that when Luke lopped off Vader's hand (Ep. 6, 'Return'), Vader actually used a Force power to reduce the damage from being killed to being injured/maimed.

It's not accepted by me. I've never heard that before in my life. Several people got limbs chopped off, and we never saw them "die". I see no reason to think that they were all masters of the force.

[b]In the WEG editions of the SW RPG, it's stated that 'blasters are deadly'. If you're hit but damage isn't done (due to your Body roll), you've been clipped (e.g. Leia at the bunker in Ep. 6) but not really hurt. While ChampsGuy suggests that people (e.g. Stormtroopers) in SW don't have Resistant Defenses, my question is this: have we ever seen a Stormtrooper funeral? Stormtroopers weren't killed by one or two rocks. Overborne, yes, but killed? Captured, I expect. The ones that are constantly blasted throughout the movies, well, we never see them being pulled out of their armor, pulses checked, and given the coup.b]

You could also say that we've never seen that lightsabers are deadly either.

I never said Stormtroopers don't have rPD. I said that their armor never seemed effective. Draw your own conclusions as how to model that.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Rick
So we've got
5D6 RKA
No Range
Reduced Penetration
Reduced Stun Multiple (that's a real Lim in 5th, right?)
Not vs "force fields"

How is that minimal compare to 2d6 nnd does body.

When luke hit vader he roled all ones...big deal that's how the rolls go sometime.

I was thinking, and decided I should probably drop it to around 4D6.

Minimal? Who said I wanted "minimal". I want to simulate what the darn thing does. I want people to stop transposing mechanics for an out-of-print game onto the weapon. A lightsaber is just an energy attack. It shouldn't hurt Superman. That's why I don't want NND on it--because it shouldn't have NND on it.

What are you expecting to run into in the Star Wars universe that will require NND Does Body?

[Rick]

"I take a minimalist approach to weapons writeups..."

That's a quote from you. Everytime you write up a weapon you "impose" a game mechanic on it, that's the point of writing them up. You are absolutly right in that you can take a tact that there is no Resistant ed in star wars. I've no problemW/that, though a 2-3d6 hka W/out str mod would work as well as 5d6 Rka no range. There comes the problem of the saber cutting clean through a blast door (by it's nature Resistant def) and not even effecting a shield. I don't really want my pc's to have 7-10d6 in melee combat in what is basicly a hero game. So I take the tact that Lightsabers are a lower dice W/higher advantage tallies. NND or ALVD.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Guys, I really don't think there's 'only one right way' to build the damn thing; I give my ideas, Champsguy has his own mindset on it. I disagree on Champsguy's interpretation, including how all the rest of it works, but I've read the other 'Expanded Universe' goodies, I like to think I have a bit more clear idea on 'the way things work'. Still, what's supposed to happen is that it fits YOUR game. This isn't worth a flame war over, really.

"There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no death, there is the Force."
-- The Jedi Code

[Rick]

There are many ways of writing up a lightsaber, it just depends on how you like your games to run. My write up (I've yet to post it) in our game is bit complex but it accomplishes what I want, it allows for combat luck to effect the damage, shields to completely rebuff and it slices through everything and one else.

[JmOz]

I agree, and to whit, it also depends on the game, my Star Knight character who essentialy has one needs to be able to damage high end supers, thus it is bought with AVLD: Force Fields F/X

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

To be honest, I'm of two minds about this. I originally designed the lightsaber as an Energy HKA, AP x3 / Penetrating. Then I found the RKA NND version, came up with the RKA Limited AVLD version on my own, and -- reading fun stuff about Mecha and the like -- am wondering which/where, exactly, it's going to work.

Question for y'all: how would you handle a 'Limited Impact vs. Size'? The situation I'm thinking about involves the example Mecha on p. 227 of the Star Hero book. The vehicle has 25 BODY and 20 DEF; a 3d6 NND/AVLD RKA is going to tear that apart in two or three swings, (average of 12 straight to Body) while a 3d6 AP RKA is going to take maybe a dozen. You might think that a dozen is a lot, especially with the pilot doing his best to blow you away or stomp on you, but if you're rapid-striking or something, you can rip the huge thing apart in a very short time.

While I agree it's cool seeing Luke (Expanded Universe time) deflect mondo blaster bolts from an AT-AT with his lightsaber or hand, a lightsaber can STILL only reach so far when it comes to slicing apart a massive mecha/vehicle/whatever. Should one have a rule for this? A limitation, to reflect the comparative size of the attack vs. the victim? A 'game ruling' on it? Or is there something else, perhaps in the hit locations, that comments on how to handle this sort of thing?

---- Edited in ----

Thinking about this for a little bit, I recognize that there's a difference between 'slicing it into bitty bitty pieces' and 'disabling the vehicle'. Even with the NND/AVLD lightsaber, it's going to take you some time to slice an 80' battlewagon into scrap metal, but it isn't NECESSARILY going to take you very long to disable the thing. A slice to a foot, and the thing falls over; a couple cuts around the 'power box' (or whatever) and it don't work no more.

Thoughts? Comments? Ridicule??

[Rick]

Well unless the lightsaber is cutting into a vital system it's not taking down an AT AT. Qui Gon was cutting the hell out of the blast doors and yet only creating a man sized hole (as per hero rules oddly enough :p ) and I don't let Jedi deflect attacks that are in all rights explosions or other AE: type powers like the AT-AT blaster. I thought that scene was week. If fact I find almost all of the EU to be complete CRAP!!!!

So as in all things hero, you need to, as the GM, think about the SFX and and situation everything is happening in.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Actually, to 'take down' an AT-AT, all you have to do is remove a foot; with only two 'bars' to take out, that's (comparatively) easily done. (And the things blow up when they fall over, remember?) As for the area-effect explosions, well -- rightfully the Jedi's LIGHTSABER deflection should be given the 'Will Not Work Against Heavy Missiles (-1/4)' limitation. You can deflect blaster bolts, bullets, arrows, and knives, but when it comes to massive objects (like TOW missiles or the like) you're going to have to use the Force to 'TK Missile Deflect' it.

Otherwise, just like normal Missile Deflection, if the attack is carried in a bullet, a grenade, or a blaster bolt -- which go off when they hit the targetted hex -- you can deflect it before it goes off. Obviously the wise choice would to take an AoE Line starting from the barrel of the weapon -- but that gets expensive, and in all rights is itself a Bad Idea. Not letting the Jedi deflect/reflect such blasts is, well ... seems to me to be antithetical to the entire reason why they're taking a Jedi at all. If you can't deflect blaster bolts, even AT-AT-sized ones, then what's the point? The higher you go on the Star Wars 'size scale', though, the more difficult (or disallowed) it should be. You shouldn't be able to Reflect the Death Star Planet Killer blast, though it'd be cool if you could...

Wisely, I'll stay out of the 'X is CRAP!!!!' debate. My own opinions on it are clear: you win some, you lose some.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Rick
"I take a minimalist approach to weapons writeups..."

That's a quote from you. Everytime you write up a weapon you "impose" a game mechanic on it, that's the point of writing them up. You are absolutly right in that you can take a tact that there is no Resistant ed in star wars. I've no problemW/that, though a 2-3d6 hka W/out str mod would work as well as 5d6 Rka no range. There comes the problem of the saber cutting clean through a blast door (by it's nature Resistant def) and not even effecting a shield. I don't really want my pc's to have 7-10d6 in melee combat in what is basicly a hero game. So I take the tact that Lightsabers are a lower dice W/higher advantage tallies. NND or ALVD.

Sorry. I've got finals going on this week and next week, so I haven't been responding to stuff.

On the "I take a minimalist approach", you're right. I did say that. And, under the context in which I was speaking, I'll stand by it. Yes, in that sense, the gi-normous killing attack is "minimalist".

Here's my logic. A small (1 to 2D6) killing attack with boatloads of Advantages will do Body to pretty much whatever it hits. In this sense, it'll cut through AT-ATs, blast doors, and Chewbacca. Okay, no problem.

What a lightsaber won't do is cut through Captain America's shield, Thor's hammer, or Superman's forehead (again, in my opinion). The problem with an NND is that it'll cut through those things.

What the NND won't do is cut people in half (no bye-bye to Darth Dork in Episode 1). It simply can't do enough Body. Even if you max out, a 2D6 killing attack is still only 12 Body. On average, you're not going to be able to cut people's arms off. That tells me you need a bigger killing attack.

Ergo, big killing attack, but without funky Advantages. It's still uber-deadly.

It doesn't really matter, and do what's best for your game, by all means. I've just always taken issue with the idea that lightsabers were NND, just because they're "kewl". The special effect does not mandate NND, and neither do the effects that we've seen in the movies. I can't testify to the books, because I never bothered to read them.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Originally posted by Champsguy

Hey Champsguy! Long Time, No Argue!




What the NND won't do is cut people in half (no bye-bye to Darth Dork in Episode 1). It simply can't do enough Body. Even if you max out, a 2D6 killing attack is still only 12 Body. On average, you're not going to be able to cut people's arms off. That tells me you need a bigger killing attack.

Actually, if one goes by the Impairing and Disabling rules, 12 body is enough to cut someone in half if they have 12 body or less (A disabling wound). And a vitals hit will do X2 body...thats a maximum of 24 Body. According to the 5E, arms and legs only take about 3-4 body to "disable" (on an average human with Body 10) If a limb is "disabled" with a lightsabre, assume its gone


It doesn't really matter, and do what's best for your game, by all means. I've just always taken issue with the idea that lightsabers were NND, just because they're "kewl". The special effect does not mandate NND, and neither do the effects that we've seen in the movies. I can't testify to the books, because I never bothered to read them.

This I agree with wholeheartedly. NND or AVLD isn't necesary unless defenses in your Star Wars game are significantly high. Personaly, I use HKA, Double AP, +1 StunX to define my Lightsabres. Nice and simple. (I also allow Str to add to damage, but thats a whole seperate argument). Their main use to the Jedi is as a tool of defense (covered by Missile Deflection and boatloads of defenseive skill levels) and while their offensive capabilities are impressive, they are not irresistable. (as evidenced by Qui Gon having to melt through the blast door, and Luke's Lighsabre "bouncing" off Vaders sholder armor in ESB)

[Rick]

Well if it's an HKA nnd of lets say 2.5d6. Then we add some martial arts DC's It can easily be 3-3.5d6. Thus averaging around 12 body per attack Killing anything hit hits on an average roll, except for PC's, important NPC's and things W/high body. I know things aren't officially dead till they're negative thier body, but I don't pay that much attention to mooks in my games at zero body they're out.

And the low damage count is backed up in the movies by Vader taking a shot of the arm, Ob1 not getting chopped in three by Dooku and it taking four hits to put down the Acklay in the areana on Geonosis.

Remember, as you once said, no one appears to have Resistant ed in Star Wars, so in melee combat all a big energy killing attack is ends up being, is a big NND.

As far as the not cutting through supes or thor....Yeah I really don't see that as a point besides a wierd meta system debate. I, and DOJ apparently as they wrote up the Lightsaber similarly, don't really care about that to much. And you know what, to hell W/it who says that a Lightsaber can't cut through Superman, as far as I know there is know president set for that...and hopefully there never will be :p .

[Rick]

In a superhero game yeah you should define the Reflection as unable to deflect a heavy missile, every day. I treat Star Wars as a Hero type game, in which case I simply say, NO, when my pc's try to do stuff like that. On their character sheet all it says is 2.5d6 HKA "Lightsaber". They just know not to add their str and that it doesn't do any KB. I don't want them worrying about write ups in star wars, just playing.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Originally posted by Rick
In a superhero game yeah you should define the Reflection as unable to deflect a heavy missile, every day. I treat Star Wars as a Hero type game, in which case I simply say, NO, when my pc's try to do stuff like that. On their character sheet all it says is 2.5d6 HKA "Lightsaber". They just know not to add their str and that it doesn't do any KB. I don't want them worrying about write ups in star wars, just playing.

A man after my own heart.

I wish more people around here saw things this way...

[Rick]

Maybe it's our San Diego water, beech, clean air (usually clean are atleast) or perfect weather that makes us willing to play a bit more freely NuSoard . :cool:

Writing stuff up isn't the point for me anymore. Allowing my PC's to be cool W/in the limits of the world I offer them is the point. Sometimes points and rules be damned!!!!

[Shadowpup]

Anybody ever add in Force Field X PD, X ED, Requires Skill Roll, Only vs Known Attacks, sfx Blocking with Lightsaber

We've seen characters block with their sabers but still get knocked back, and block with their sabers and get worn out.

Yes, you could say there are blocking rules already in Hero but a good saber duel has both guys attacking and blocking a lot. Unless you just put that down to CV.

[Rick]

Yes I've seen the FF or FW version of the Saber deflection for a full defensive action it works well.

I see lightsaber combat as a lot of burning (aborting) to Block. Then someone misses their roll and the fight gets real interesting. So basicly they're manuvering for the advantage while blocking.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Originally posted by Rick
Maybe it's our San Diego water, beech, clean air (usually clean are atleast) or perfect weather that makes us willing to play a bit more freely NuSoard . :cool:

I understand. I lived in S.D. for 14+ years. Frankly I have no idea why I left in the first place (I'm now 130mi to the north in Hollywood) and I plan to move back around the end of the Summer and get my old group going again. Perhaps we can collaberate in the future...


Writing stuff up isn't the point for me anymore. Allowing my PC's to be cool W/in the limits of the world I offer them is the point. Sometimes points and rules be damned!!!!

Well...I still love writing stuff up, but I don't sweat the small stuff. As long as I get a close approximation of what I want it to do, its all good to me. And I agree...the main point is to allow the PC's to get away with some flamin cool shizzle. I mean, come on, its all about the fun in the first place.

[Rick]

Hollywood? Bummer man. I was in Fullerton for 2 years recently, now I'm in Carlsbad. I grew up in Santee though.

Back to the topic:

Well of course we love to write things up, that's half the fun of hero!!! In game though, it's of far less important than the moment, drama and PC enjoyment.

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by NuSoardGraphite

Personaly, I use HKA, Double AP, +1 StunX to define my Lightsabres.

I'm not sure I'd add to the StunX, they seem to cauterize the wound, and wasn't that guy in the bar still standing after Obi cut his arm off?

[Rick]

I've often wondered about that myself. Any reasons why +1 stunx guys?

[NuSoardGraphite]

It is my assumption that the +1StunX represents the amount of unbridled Pain that a lightsabre wound causes. Burn wounds are notoriously painful and ache badly long after the wound was inflicted. Can you imagine having a 3' blade of pure fusion beam in your gut?

And the guy in the cantina in ANH (and the changeling in AotC) was still standing because a hit to the Hand location is only a X1 stun multiplier...it becomes X2 with the Lightsabre...not enough to knock out the guy.

[Rick]

Then again maul seems barely stunned after being bifrucated.

[Shaun Hendricks]

For those of you (and this apparently includes the New Star Wars game authors) that feel you need to be a Jedi or have force powers to use a lightsaber: consider that none other than Han Solo picks up Luke's saber and disembowls a Taun-Taun with it. If you have to have a VPP (or other Force package) to use your lightsaber, this wouldn't have worked for Han (unless we agree on Han having some kind of Force package even though he's an avowed Force agnostic). It's my take, based on this single sampling, that a light saber is a stand alone weapon that can be used by anyone. They seem to have a bit of 'back bite' meaning that they have a gyroscopic effect and require STR to use and the harder the material they are cutting through, the more difficult they are to wield due to this effect. If you ask me, I would picture one as an energy version of a "Roto-Zip" saw (go to your local hardware store if you don't know what I'm talking about, or do a Google search on it). I think what the Force allows a Jedi to do is control the weapon better. Also, part of the training is learning how to make a lightsaber, thus said, if only Jedi's know the technique and there is some kind of "Force Battery" that must be charged by the Jedi to give the blade the power, then it would be an END Reserve and it would still work (at least for a while) for a non-Force user and this could also explain Han using the weapon. This is all just theoretical wanderings, I am not George Lucas, and I tend to have my worlds with less backtracking and more solid foundations of concepts than Star Wars (I'm not saying I don't love SW, I do, but man, we're nearing Trek level of backtracking on earlier points here!). Anyway, back to your discussions... :)

[Rick]

Complaining about a lack of a coherent back story for lightsabers in a Galaxy where spaceship make sounds in space and bank......????

Did it ever occur to you that Lightsabers are magic swords and who cares how they work? That: it doesn't detract from their coolness one bit not to know the specs on it. How does a Hyperdrive work, or a repulsor or a blaster. Who cares Star Wars is not science FICTION it's science FANTASY. It's all PFM, 'P'ure 'F'uckin 'M'agic. Now that to me is one of the charms of Star Wars, and wy I love it so dearly. It doesn't worry about the inconsiquential.

[Shaun Hendricks]

Originally posted by Rick
Complaining about a lack of a coherent back story for lightsabers in a Galaxy where spaceship make sounds in space and bank......????

Did it ever occur to you that Lightsabers are magic swords and who cares how they work? That: it doesn't detract from their coolness one bit not to know the specs on it. How does a Hyperdrive work, or a repulsor or a blaster. Who cares Star Wars is not science FICTION it's science FANTASY. It's all PFM, 'P'ure (Explicative Deleted) 'M'agic. Now that to me is one of the charms of Star Wars, and wy I love it so dearly. It doesn't worry about the inconsiquential.

I'm sorry, did I say something that deserved a response like this? The thread topic spoke for itself. I figured the context and concept of it was fairly apparent from that topic. My post addressed that topic as well as the generalization concept that was being applied by the other posters in the thread. Since I am now being portrayed as some kind of 'idiot' for trying to quantify points regarding a device used, and story continuity, I think I need to respond to your points.

Point #1: You supposed that I am 'complaining' about story in a show that doesn't hold true to known physics.
-First: The two have nothing to do with each other. Special Effects and audience belief effects are completely different in concept and scope from a story that should hold true to it's own tenets. Whether or not ships make sounds or change vectors in sweeping motions have ziltch to do with whether or not blue is blue throughout the story.
-Second: There are a few dozen explainations for ships 'banking' like aerofighters in space fiction. Most deal with limiting G forces on crews or equipment designed to protect crews from these G forces. Any halfway decent Trekker can tell you why starships 'bank' in the show. As to sound in space, I think that's fairly obvious. If the soundtrack went dead silent in space combat scenes or external space scenes, people would be bored and disinterested in seeing those scenes. Watching flashes and explosions, action and combat without sound removes your second most important sense from the action, thus disjoining the audience from important scenes. Our theaters tout sound systems in the hundreds of thousands of dollars and they don't do it so the audience can listen to the air conditioners run.

Point #2: You assert that nobody cares how something works because it is 'magic'.
-You are addressing a bunch of Hero gamers. Hero is a system whereupon people try to 'figure out' some of the craziest, most minor, underlying principles of how things work. Something COOL like a lightsaber certainly will NOT be tossed into the bin of "PFM"; as you put it. You're insulting nearly everyone here when you insinuate they are idiots for trying to surmise, supposition, and discover possible underlying principles of a object. They do this so they can most accurately portray a device using the rules of the game system.

Point #3: Star Wars is Science Fantasy, not Science Fiction.
-That's a very blurry line you're crossing into there. One that Star Hero doesn't help explain much. Any show that inserts elements of actual science into it, can be called Science Fiction. Star Trek would have to qualify as Science Fantasy by your definition as well. Each series has fantasy elements in it, yet neither are hard core science or complete derivations of it. Science Fiction in the broadest sense, covers all Science Fantasy, yet Science Fantasy does not encompass Science Fiction but is subset of it. Having said that, I have to ask the question whether or not it has any relevance what genre the story is in. See my responses to your Point #1 and Point #2 for an explaination of that question. In the end, Hero Gamers want to know all the details, no matter the basis in science fiction or fact. It's a simple desire, so they can 'build'.

My intend on the story aspects was to point out that Star Wars is missing in technological and conceptual continuity between it's movies. This is in order to facilitate the greater storyline George Lucas is attempting to tell, but in doing do, it creates problems for Hero System users that are seeking continuity between shows and concepts. Thus were my comments made, and to point out this problem. To which you responded in a highly aggressive manner that was unnecessary, given the context and the fact that I was only pointing out some unmentioned sticky points of building the device.

The real questions are: Why are you so worked up over this? Why would you care if people want to know the trivial details? Why vent your anger and rudeness at me, who only added a single blurb in an ongoing conversation? If you like Star Wars so much, you should learn the lessons it's trying to expound: Patience and understanding are the path to peace and self worth. Anger and hatred lead to hurt and more anger and hatred.

If you care to reply with tact and some relevant building issues for lightsabers, then I'm sure everyone reading this thread will be more than happy to pay attention to what you have to say. My only request is that you calm down and answer with more civility than contempt for the people involved in this thread.

[Rick]

You know in glancing over your last post (I don't have a lot of time I'm vurrently writing a new piece) I realized that my last responce came off as radly condisending. I apologize, it was not intended as such. I was trying to point out that technical aspects of Star Wars don't do anything for me.

I'm sorry for the tone of my lst responce, I can only chalk it up to finals, tomuch work and a lack of sleep.

[AlHazred]

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side."

I noticed that noone brought up the idea that Jedi routinely "punch up" their lightsabers' damage/advantages/whatever with their Force Powers. I think some of the concerns people have could be addressed with this one point.

[AnotherSkip]

I also happen to think that perhaps Han Solo was able to once use a light saber does not mean that the Lightsaber is more than a Universal Focus. Your buddies and your enemies can use it too.

If Han carried it around he would have to 1. pay for it. 2. Buy off/change the "Does not believe in the force" Psy Lim, due to the use of a symbol of the "Hokey Religion" (unless he was trying to "dispell" the religion with that tool). 3. Find some way to insert it into his character concept.

[Shaun Hendricks]

Originally posted by Rick
You know in glancing over your last post (I don't have a lot of time I'm vurrently writing a new piece) I realized that my last responce came off as radly condisending. I apologize, it was not intended as such. I was trying to point out that technical aspects of Star Wars don't do anything for me.

I'm sorry for the tone of my lst responce, I can only chalk it up to finals, tomuch work and a lack of sleep.

To quote a Star Wars character: "Apology accepted..." only I'll forego the telekinetic strangle bit... I DON'T have a FORCE power package... :D

Sorry about the "War and Peace" post, it's pretty hideously long... Anyway, I've said enough to fill a thread by myself, I'm bailing out of this one now... :)

[Jhereg]

I've been running a successful SW campaign for a while. For Lightsabers, I use the following:

2d6 HKA: Attack Versus Limited Defense (Power Defense) (+1 1/2), Does BODY (+1), Continuous (+1), Uncontrolled (+1/2), OAF (-1), Independent (-2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), STR Minimum 10 (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

This makes certain assumptions:
1) A lightsaber ignores most defenses (hence cutting through droids and walker armor like butter). Given time, a lightsaber can cut through anything (it's only the BODY of the object stopping it in the first place). I use AVLD rather than NND because NND implies a reasonably common, completely effective defense. With AVLD a person with Power Defense (an uncommon defense) would have a chance at taking a lightsaber blow. The only people in a heroic campaign with Power Defense would be reasonably powerful Jedi (we saw Vader take a few cuts without major injury).
2) When ignited, a lightsaber blade always does damage (Uncontrolled, and Continuous).
3) STR cannot add damage. It certainly does require STR to wield one (STR Min), but an abundance of STR would not make a deadlier lightsaber, IMHO.
4) A lightsaber is dangerous to the wielder (also represented by the Continuous and Uncontrolled, also possibly a damage shield).

We also use a version of the "Lightsaber Combat" as a compound power, including any of these:
CSL's w/ Lightsaber
Missile Deflection/Reflection
Combat Sense
Lightning Reflexes
Rapid Attack
Succor: to increase Lightsaber damage (I also allow Jedi to use their Succor dice as a Suppress [at no cost] to decrease their own lightsaber damage [since a KA normally must be used at full power])

Modified with enough Limitations the package is affordable even for beginning Jedi. I suggest things like Requires Skill Roll, Increased END, Extra Time, Side Effects, and Concentration. This lends a beginning Padawan feel, and the Lims can be bought off as the Jedi progresses. I also allow all force powers a -1/2 Limitation to represent the Dark Side's temptation. We do not use Frameworks as many people suggest. I feel they're horribly unbalancing in a heroic game. I think the cost of force powers can be lessened with the proper limitations (to more resemble spells/magic abilities than super powers), and each power should be bought separately, and represent a good chunk of the Jedi's points to preserve balance.

The write up we use makes for a very powerful weapon. In the wrong hands, it can be quite unbalancing. But that is, I feel, the idea behind the weapon. My advice for GM's is:
-Keep lightsabers rare.
-Keep your Jedi in check. A real Jedi would not be as quick to hack at someone as PC's tend to be. Overkill/Unnecessary violence should be punished with Dark Side influence.
-Remind PC's how dangerous lightsabers are. After a missed attack or fumble, an occasional 0-OCV roll on one's self or friend instills the proper respect for a deadly weapon.
-Keep your antagonists smart. Anyone who's seen a lightsaber in action knows not to get near one... unless they have skills to match.

I hope something in hear is helpful.

[Rick]

Here's mine;

Hand killing Attack (Energy): 2.5d6 ALVD (Combat Luck, +1 1/2), Does Body (+1), Reduced end (0end, +1/2) (160 Active points), OAF (-1), Independant (-2), Has no effect on energy shielding (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/2), -1 stunX (-1/2), No Strength to damage (-1/2), Str min (6, -1/2), real weapon (-1/4)....Real points: 24

Notes: MArtial arts still adds DC. I have a special DC to add to the Lightsaber so that regular MA don't get out of hand. It is not unbalancing for the game world, Jedi are supposed to be BADASS.

This is how it'll will look in my game.

[Jhereg]

Looks good to me. Much more feasible than some suggestions.

[NuSoardGraphite]

You know, a few months ago I got a Star Wars Insider magazine that detailed the various forms of Lightsabre Combat. I immediately wrote up Martial Arts styles based on these various forms. I'll see if I can dig it up and post it in the next day or two...

[Nevenall]

Man, I don't know if want to get involved in all this, but I too, have a lightsaber writeup.

Light saber: 3d6+1 HKA; Standard Effect (10 Body) -0, ALVD (Power Defense) +1 1/2, Does Body +1, 0 End Cost +1/2, Cannot Add Str -1/2, Focus OAF -1, No Bleeding -1/4.

Jedi can use force powers and martial arts to boost damage, and to reduce damage taken. They can also use the force to reduce the OAF to OIF.

Pretty much the same as some others, execpt for the standard effect. It seems to fit to me. It doesn't matter so much whether or not you get hit with a light saber, what matters is where you get hit.

[James Gillen]

Originally posted by Plastick Hero
I've been running a successful SW campaign for a while. For Lightsabers, I use the following:

2d6 HKA: Attack Versus Limited Defense (Power Defense) (+1 1/2), Does BODY (+1), Continuous (+1), Uncontrolled (+1/2), OAF (-1), Independent (-2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), STR Minimum 10 (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

This makes certain assumptions:
1) A lightsaber ignores most defenses (hence cutting through droids and walker armor like butter). Given time, a lightsaber can cut through anything (it's only the BODY of the object stopping it in the first place). I use AVLD rather than NND because NND implies a reasonably common, completely effective defense. With AVLD a person with Power Defense (an uncommon defense) would have a chance at taking a lightsaber blow. The only people in a heroic campaign with Power Defense would be reasonably powerful Jedi (we saw Vader take a few cuts without major injury).

In the source material, Vader's armor is considered a product of 'Sith alchemy'- meaning it's proofed against lightsabers (gets its DEF against the attack). Which doesn't change the validity of what you're saying, it just means that Sith items count as having the Limited Defense. Usually, since the blade is considered coherent energy, Force Fields block it as well (this is why a saber can block another saber, and why Qui-Gon and Maul had to delay their fight in the palace until the security force fields behind Maul turned off).

JG

[Rick]

Nah, in the EU they claim that Vaders armor is proofed against lightsabers. In my not so humble opinion :p , that's dumb. Luke bouncing a shot of vader's shoulder has more to do W/a bad damage roll than anything (or as in my write up prehaps suffient combat luck). Besides Vader still clutches his arm and screams in pain, mean the lightsaber cut through it.

[James Gillen]

That, and the armor isn't that strong a defense (maybe 6). In any case, Vader can at least walk away from a saber cut.

JG

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Having been witness to (and prime abuser of) the power of the HERO-system Jedi Knight in combat, it is my not-so-humble opinion that the lightsaber should cost. The weapon I used, I believe, was 1½d6 HKA, 0 END, AP and Penetrating, upgradeable via the Force VPP. *shrugs* What with the 'rapid attack' HTH rules, so on and so forth, well -- say goodbye to 3 goons per round, pretty much.

On the other hand, you DO have to scale it to the campaign. The above was in a 'nitty gritty' campaign, 'buyable' RL weapons, armor and equipment, but if you wanted something extraordinary (battle armor, for example) you had to pay points. Resistant armor was also limited to a maximum of 12-15 points with a Focus, 10 points native; the GM (me again) wanted the characters to run a real risk of getting hurt, even killed, by a punk with a 9mm. So 1½d6 AP/Penetrating, damage that could be added to with Strength, maneuver, and Force, became completely deadly. That attack in a more 'superheroic' scenario, with 20 and 25 rEDs that are often resistant to AP and P, loses much of its 'punch'. It's still dangerous, certes, but it's not nearly as dangerous.

My advice winds up being 'scale it to the campaign'. A stormtrooper, despite armor, can be taken out by a direct blaster shot -- 30 Stun through the armor. So, figuring 6 rED (a lot in a universe where people don't wear any armor at all), we need a high-side average of 36 rED stun for a blaster bolt -- say, 4d6 RKA with a +2 stun multiplier. And a lightsaber equals that, PLUS is either AP or NND (ED force fields). When SW has force fields, they pretty much do the job...

Anyhow. Tailor to campaign.

[Rick]

Really you need to scale games in hero? Wow Glad someone told me....;) (Sorry for the sarcasm :D )

[Outsider]

I would lean towards the following

Weapon has at least SOME highly penetrating damage. The 4th Edition rules (the ones I have) do not specifically state that Penetrating can be bought more than once, and do say that any target with Hardened defences is immune to such damage. My usual campaign rule is that Penetrating and AP stack, with APs stripping off Hardeneds until one or the other runs out, Penetrating would only be nullified if the number of Hardeneds on the target exceeds the number of APs on the attack. With this in mind, the first die of the lightsaber's KA would be AP, Pen (+1)

The weapon has do do at least enough damage to lop off limbs and/or cut people in half. I am not convinced that it has a significant amount of trouble doing this with large (but still humanish scale) targets. This means it will be needing to do a total of around 14 or 15 Body damage on average to unarmored targets, at the least. We COULD account for this by simply adding a bunch more KA, or we COULD do it by buying it as an HKA and allowing Strength and/or Martial Arts manuvers to add to it, or we COULD do it by allowing "The Force" to be used to add damage. I prefer doing all three. Light saber fighting certainly looks like a martial skill, after all, though it doesnt look so much like it really depends on strength, per se. (so, HKA, cant add str) The two handed bits in the style are not to provide greater striking strength, but are merely part of the style (and they keep your off hand from getting to the wrong place!) Allowing force users to beef up damage done via the force would explain why lightsabers kick butt in their hands, but every two bit mercenary isnt using one as a bayonet. Non-Jedi CAN use a lightsaber, but it really isnt any more effective than a vibro-blade for them.

SO a lightsaber in my estimation is :

5 (30) 1d6 HKA (E)
_______(+1/2) Armor Piercing
_______(+1/2) Penetrating
_______(-1) OAF (Universal)
_______(-2) Independent
_______(-1/4) Str Min ((Act/3)-5 (5 Str Min))
_______(-1/2) May not add damage due to excess STR
_______(-1/4) Real Weapon
_______(-1/2) Ineffective vs EM Shielding
_______(-1/4) Does No Knockback
_______(-1/4) Does not cause bleeding wounds

7 (37) +1 1/2d6 HKA (E)
_______(+1/2) Reduced Endurance (0 END)
_______(-1) OAF (Universal)
_______(-2) Independent
_______(-1/4) Real Weapon
_______(-1/2) Ineffective vs EM Shielding
_______(-1/4) Does No Knockback
_______(-1/4) Does not cause bleeding wounds


Up to 5 more Damage classes may be added via Skill Levels (2 Skill = +1 DC) or Martial Manuvers (+2d6 manuver = +1DC) or via a "The Force" at a rate of +1DC per 5 pool points so dedicated.

An additional 3 Damage classes that are AP, PEN may be added via Skill Level (4 Skill = +1DC (AP PEN)) or Martial Manuvers (+4d6 manuver = +1DC (AP PEN)), or via "The Force" at a rate of +1DC per 10 pool points so dedicated.

Alternatively, allow Force users to have a "Aid - HKA, Lightsaber ONLY" slot in their force pool. This will make them even more powerful, as it will allow them to boost their offensive output without tying up their force pool for more than a phase. I would still include it under the 8 extra DC limit, though. otherwise the attacks might get too big. 5d6+1 Killing should be big enough.





HOW LIGHTSABERS COMPARE TO OTHER TECHNOLOGIES

Stormtrooper Armor (sensorium/com gear excluded) :
1 (6) 2/2 Armor
_____(-1/2) OIF (Universal)
_____(-2) Independent
_____(-1/4) Real Armor
_____(-1/2) Has Mass (half nominal) (5Kg)
1 (6) +0/4 Armor
_____(-1/2) OIF (Universal)
_____(-2) Independent
_____(-1/4) Real Armor
_____(-1/2) Has Mass (half nominal) (5Kg)
_____(-1/2) Only vs Blasters


Blasters (all are OAF (-1), Independent (-2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Has STR min (disad listed with individual weapon), Cant Add Damage w STR (-1/2). Total lim (-3.75))

Holdout Blaster (Small, Easily Concealed)
7 (45) 3d6 RKA, 4 charges (-1) (Str min is (Act/3)-5) = 10) (-1/4)

Blaster Pistol (Standard)
9 (45) 3d6 RKA, 16 charges (-0) (Str min is (Act/3)-5) = 10) (-1/4)

Heavy Blaster Pistol (DL-44, Solo's Blaster)
16 (75) 4d6 RKA, 16 charges (-0) (Str min is (Act/3)-10) = 10) (+1/4)

Blaster Carbine (Short Blaster Rifle, for use by ships crews)
13 (67) 3d6 RKA, 32 charges (+1/4), 1 1/2 handed (-1/4) (Str min is (Act/3)-10) = 9 (or 11, one handed)) (+1/4)

Blaster Rifle (Full Size Personal Blaster Rifle, for outdoor use)
17 (90) 4d6 RKA, 32 charges (+1/4), 2 handed (-1/2) (Str min is (Act/3)-10) = 10) (+1/4)

Heavy Blaster (Man Portable, Crew Served)
29 (150) 4d6 RKA, 250 charges (+1), Autofire (+1/2), Bulky (-1/2), Takes 1 Turn to set up (-1/2) (does not get "cant add damage w str lim, since it has no str min lim (- -1/2)

Large vehicles (Such as AT-ATs, or ships the size of the Millenium Falcon, or larger) get Damage Reduction, useable only against attacks significantly beneath their scale. The farther beneath their scale, the greater the level of Damage Reduction. They ALSO get a disavantage "underscale targets conducting a close assault (melee range to maybe 4 hexes out) may attempt to Find Weakness (limited to one success) against this vehicle.

Thus, an AT-AT, for example, gets its full DEF and takes full BODY from other vehicles, but an infantryman that is right next to it can look for a weak spot and nail it there, attacking against 1/2 normal DEF, but doing 1/2 normal Body damage. If the Infantryman has an AP/PEN attack, he may be attacking against 1/4 normal DEF, and do 1/2 normal Body Damage, with a guarantee of doing some (due to the PEN)


Thats how I see it anyway.

[Vondy]

I just build them as 2d6 ERKA, AVLD (force field, force wall, mag-seals, major hardening), DOES BODY, NO RANGE, CAN BE BLOCKED, OAF and call it a day.

[Jhereg]

Originally posted by James Gillen
Force Fields block it as well (this is why a saber can block another saber, and why Qui-Gon and Maul had to delay their fight in the palace until the security force fields behind Maul turned off).

JG

I agree with that. Actually, I usually include FF's in the applicable defense. I left it out of the write up for simplicity's sake. With FF's as an applicable AVLD defense (rather than a NND) the lightsaber *can* penetrate weaker FF's. The one seperating Maul and Qui-Gon was obviously not weak. But if Lighsaber's are NND, then even a 1 rED FF would be proof against it. Assuming lightsaber-wielder knows the limitations of his weapon, why would Maul have "tested" the FF unless it was conceivable that a lightsaber can make it through a FF (aside of course for the obvious reason of informing the audience. I'm not ignorant)?

Using an AVLD write up is perfect for a GM that wants to use Lightsaber-resistant Sith armor. Instead of calling "sith armor" an applicable defense to the SVLD, just assign the armor Power Defense in addition to DD&ED. That makes the armor more special, not the lighsaber more limited.

[Cybrarian]

I run a d20 SW campaign and I'm considering a switch to Hero. Being a Hero newbie and looking at the lightsaber discussion I have a question.

Doesn't DOES BODY when combined with NND or AVLD only get you back to doing normal damage? It seems to me that a 'saber should be doing killing damage rather than normal.

Another thing that put me off a little was the energy sword writeup in Star Hero (p. 148) which uses RKA, No Range (-1/2.) HKA specifically lists the -1/2 limitation No STR Bonus (5th Ed., p. 124) which includes the desciptive text, "It might represent, for example, a lasersword..." HKA, No STR Bonus and RKA, No Range may be functional and cost equivalents, but the former seems a more elegant description of what's happening. Am I missing something?

[Jhereg]

Originally posted by Cybrarian
Doesn't DOES BODY when combined with NND or AVLD only get you back to doing normal damage? It seems to me that a 'saber should be doing killing damage rather than normal.

By buying NND (+1) and Does Body (+1), you're still doing a KA, it just means the KA is now exempt from the rule that says NND's are automatically STUN Only. A NND DOES BODY is rolled and tallied just like the original KA, but there's no defense (at least not a normal one).

Another thing that put me off a little was the energy sword writeup in Star Hero (p. 148) which uses RKA, No Range (-1/2.) HKA specifically lists the -1/2 limitation No STR Bonus (5th Ed., p. 124) which includes the desciptive text, "It might represent, for example, a lasersword..." HKA, No STR Bonus and RKA, No Range may be functional and cost equivalents, but the former seems a more elegant description of what's happening. Am I missing something?

They're two different ways of doing the same thing. HKA w/ No STR Bonus, and RKA No Range are both creating the same power. Same effect: same cost. Write it however you like.

[Jhereg]

To paraphrase Steve Long: It's all about the special effects of the power. And that, my friend is up to you.

[Cybrarian]

Originally posted by Plastick Hero
By buying NND (+1) and Does Body (+1), you're still doing a KA, it just means the KA is now exempt from the rule that says NND's are automatically STUN Only. A NND DOES BODY is rolled and tallied just like the original KA, but there's no defense (at least not a normal one).

This is what I initially thought, but a friend with more Hero experience pointed out that NND makes it a STUN Only attack. Then adding DOES BODY would turn it into a Normal Damage attack. This seems to be born out by the text of DOES BODY (p. 164,) "This Advantage allows Attack Powers which ordinarily do only STUN damage - such as Ego Attacks, AVLDs, and NNDs - to do BODY damage as well. The BODY damage done is counted like Normal Damage BODY..." That seems to be pretty definitive.

Is there anything in FREd that discusses tallying NND Does Body like a normal KA?

[Jhereg]

I think that passage is assuming the attack was a Normal Damage attack in the first place. But you may want to take it to Steve's 5th Ed Rules Questions to be sure. I wouldn't mind hearing his explanation myself.

[Cybrarian]

Originally posted by Plastick Hero
I think that passage is assuming the attack was a Normal Damage attack in the first place. But you may want to take it to Steve's 5th Ed Rules Questions to be sure. I wouldn't mind hearing his explanation myself.

You're right. I found the answer in the Power Advantages and Add-Ons FAQs:

Does BODY
Q: If a character applies Does BODY to an RKA NND, do you calculate the BODY done as usual for a Killing Attack, or as if it were Normal Damage BODY?

A: Calculate the BODY (and STUN) as usual for an RKA. An RKA NND that does not have Does BODY would also calculate its STUN damage as usual for an RKA; the BODY rolled of course does not apply to the target.

[Jhereg]

Whew! Glad to hear it. You had me worried I was using the wrong rules for who-knows-how-long.

[Farkling]

This is a long and interesting debate. I have observations to add from the debate as seen from outside the box here...

1) Light sabers cut up people easily, with little shock (STUN) damage.
2) Light sabers cut through damn near any physical object.
3) Jedi can freely block and parry these horrible devices, others get whacked. Jedi take litle damage from saber blows (dodges, force shielding, etc)
4) Boba Fett's armor resists saber blows
5) Blast doors take a while to cut through. DEF or thickness? I'm inclined to think thickness from Star Wars: The Race (Episode 1)

After looking at all these writeups, the majority of you are building your sabers as AVLD vs Power Defense. Power Defense covers the Jedi "dodges" quite aptly, as they are no doubt using som force powers to save themselves...

The AVLD cuts force fields without a limitation. As does the NND-Does Body combination.

Let's cut out the middleman, and cheapen the armor purchases for Boba Fett and company.

I think that if I ever set up a Star Wars game or start using light sabers, I am going to build them as 3-5d6 BODY Drain attacks (possibly with delayed return rate, I don't know, Jedi seem to heal mundane saber wounds quickly, or not receive them in the first place, and lost limbs are covered under the disabling rules). That will typically take down most normals, regardless of armor and shields. Minor STUN damage will be done by the Drain effect. Add "cannot penetrate force fields" on top of that, and I think I'll be doing okay. The thermal output of the saber would be sufficient to burn through just about anything given sufficient time. Considering these are energy blades, I doubt that anything will resist them. Things that have resisted in the movies were struck glancing blows (bad rolls).

Now Boba Fett, Vader, and any Eilte Troopers that show up can buy Power Defense: OIF Armor, only to reduce damage from Light Sabers (and/or Force Powers!),

Jedi HAVE Power Defense to turn that lethal strike into a glancing injury (Luke, end of Empire before his hand gets lopped off).

[Rick]

Actually mines an ALVD against combat luck, but it also has a (-1/2) limitation, doesn't effect energy shielding.

[Aroooo]

Unless Combat Luck is fairly common in your game, wouldn't it be innapropriate for an AVLD? Or am I just too tired and thinking more of NND's?

Aroooo

[James Gillen]

Given that armor seems to be almost as rare in SW as it is in the real world, I'd think Combat Luck would be the most common form of resistant defense, at least if you've got "PC" floating above your forehead.

JG

[Rick]

Hell yah combat luck is really common in my planned Star Wars Campaign. To the point that I'll charge 1 point for +1 resistant defense (PD or ED), so that everyone doesn't have the same amount of resistant defence.. Jedi, other heroes and important bad guys like Sith darkjedi and bad ass bounty hunters will all have Combat luck. Storm Troopers and Battle droids, no combat luck.

[James Gillen]

Lightsaber: RKA 1 1/2d6 (25) AVLD (+1 1/2), Does BODY (+1), 0 END (+1/2) = 100 Active Points -OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2) subtotal 40 points
plus RKA 1d6 (15), AVLD (+1 1/2) Does BODY (+1), Damage Shield (+1/2), Continuous (+1) 0 END (+1/2) = 67 AP
-OAF (-1), Linked (-1/2), only vs. material objects which strike the blade (-1/4) 24 points
EQUALS 64 points Real Cost

options
Missile Deflection vs. all (20) OAF/lightsaber = 10 pts.
one hex radius (+1/2 = 30) = +5 pts.
Reflection vs. any target (+30) OAF (-1), only Reflects energy attacks (-1/4) = +13 pts.

Lightsaber Combat: use Energy Blade Fencing from STAR HERO, p. 44
-

As you can probably tell, this is modeled after the 'Energy Blade' from STAR HERO. I modified things for the following reasons:
RKA/Damage Class: I made this an RKA (rather than HKA as some have done) because it allows me to take the No Range limit, because a blade with no weight is kind of hard to apply Strength damage with, and because if Advantage modifiers have to be applied to STR, it would be hard for most wielders to get even +1 DC for STR. Similarly, the weapon has no STR Limit.

The Damage Class is relatively low compared to some writeups, given that a) the lightsaber seems to be wielded as a hand-and-a-half blade like a bastard sword or katana, thus I gave it an equivalent Damage Class (5 DC, 1 1/2 d6 K) and b) even though the sword can cut virtually anything, it's still limited by the physics of its construction. This is why, in Episode I, Qui-Gon could cut into and heat the Neimoidians' blast door, but not cut it down in one attack. This also makes things a bit more balanced and keeps the weapon from being an instant kill every time. Increasing the DC is possible with Lightsaber Combat, with each +2 DC adding +1 DC to a Killing Attack as per other weapon Martial Arts. However, this is considered a "Force power" in that the Jedi is using the Force through the blade and channeling his skill with the Force through his martial art. Thus, while non-Force users could learn to use the blade (Uncommon Melee Familiarity) and could get Combat Skill Levels in it, they wouldn't be able to take the Martial Art.

AVLD: The AVLD applies to Force Fields (including the blade itself, so lightsabers can parry each other), Power Defense, certain creations of 'Sith alchemy' (in addition to Vader's armor, there were some Sith blades in Tales of the Jedi that could parry sabers) and Combat Luck, which again, would be fairly common among the name characters in SW given that armor is rare and unarmored characters in HERO are very vulnerable. Since these defenses are not all-or-nothing, the Advantage is AVLD, not NND. Also, if Combat Luck is used as a defense, the GM should make sure that PCs can't get it beyond the base 3 Defense.

Damage Shield: Likewise, trying to parry the saber with a material object is going to get the object cut, most likely destroyed if it has less than 6 BODY or is held against the blade more than one Phase.

0 END: The weapon has to use some kind of energy cell, but they never go into details on how it works, so it's just as well to make it 0 END and say it burns out on a fumble or something.

The weapon itself would cost 64 points if bought, although this is a steep cost for Heroic-level characters. At the same time, the lightsaber is an overly powerful melee weapon given its ability to avoid most defenses. I'd say that when a Jedi is given his first blade by a Master, it's free, but when he has to make his own blade, it costs points (possibly applying the Independent Limitation given the rarity of the items, especially in the Empire). However, the Lightsaber Combat art, and the Missile Deflection/Reflection are all aspects of Force Skill, and should be bought outright, even if the blade is free (in which case the OAF Limitation still applies on the Missile Deflection/Reflection).

JG

[Farkling]

I'm not sure it needs the damage shield rider. It would be cinematic to declare the energy blade damage applies against any object a block is rolled against...much like some of the optional combat rules in (Fantasy?) Hero. When a light saber leaves a Jedi's hand it turns off, unless he uses the force to continue wielding it (such as the popular throws of books and video games). As it stands, anything the blade impacts takes a 2 1/2 d6 RKA, and anything it simply touches takes onlyt 1d6 RKA...that seems to be cinematic more than mechanic.

Perhaps Continuous, and "only blade impact" should be applied in some variant to the attack itself...

This construct is also mildly interesting if one applies the TK force power to wielding the blade...effectivley tacking range onto the damage shield power. I'd rather charge for continuous up front, after all, the blades are on for all combat phases continuously.

Feedback?

[James Gillen]

Yeah, those are some good ideas. It's just that mechanically, HERO applies the Damage Shield in order to damage an opponent's weapon in the same Phase he hits. It's not big on "cinematic" rules.

JG

[NuSoardGraphite]

Hey!

Putting up a topic about Lightsabre martial arts now :)

[rayoman]

That's a little harsh. Ep 1 IS better than the current batch of Matrix movies that just came out, IMHO.

Originally posted by Champsguy
(Episode Suck... I mean Episode 1... no, I do mean Episode Suck)

[austenandrews]

Originally posted by rayoman
That's a little harsh. Ep 1 IS better than the current batch of Matrix movies that just came out, IMHO.

Agreed. I've watched Ep1 several times on DVD, warts and all. I've no desire to see Matrix 2 ever again.

-AA

[rayoman]

Yeah, that took a lot of skill to disembowl a dead Taun-Taun. I'm sure the weather more than made up for the fact the Taun-Taun could not dodge or move.

WEG's Star Wars game never said only a Jedi could use weapon. They did say only a skilled person in Lightsaber could use it wihtout hurting themselves. Jedi's just had a Force Power that allowed them to increase damage. The d20 version allows for Jedi classes to increase damage of lightsabers as they advance in level.


Originally posted by Shaun Hendricks
For those of you (and this apparently includes the New Star Wars game authors) that feel you need to be a Jedi or have force powers to use a lightsaber: consider that none other than Han Solo picks up Luke's saber and disembowls a Taun-Taun with it.

[rayoman]

I actually liked the 2nd Matrix movie until the end.

I hated the third one with a passion.

The creators of the Matrix Trilogy sure suckered me and many others out of hard earned $$$$. I fooled 'em though by going to the matinee for both movies.

IMO, the Matrix is only a single movie.

Now, I have just completed reading this entire thread. All the writeups for LS are good. I like the Star Hero version the best.

Originally posted by austenandrews
Agreed. I've watched Ep1 several times on DVD, warts and all. I've no desire to see Matrix 2 ever again.

-AA

[vayers]

I was thinking, and decided I should probably drop it to around 4D6.

Minimal? Who said I wanted "minimal". I want to simulate what the darn thing does. I want people to stop transposing mechanics for an out-of-print game onto the weapon. A lightsaber is just an energy attack. It shouldn't hurt Superman. That's why I don't want NND on it--because it shouldn't have NND on it.

What are you expecting to run into in the Star Wars universe that will require NND Does Body?

After reading all 7 pages of this, I like this guys take the most. So I threw it all into HD and came up with:

Lightsaber: Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (90 Active Points); OAF (-1), -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (not vs ff, fw; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), STR Minimum 1-5 (-1/4) 24 pts

That would seem to simulate the damaging effects of the lightsaber on just about everything we've seen in the movies without having to resort to all sorts of AVLD's and NND's, and at a reasonable cost to the character. Darth's armor stopped some damage because it was resistant and Luke rolled crappily (and that's what was called for for dramatic purposes :D), same for Fett's armor.

The weapon above could cut through the Walkers armor, go through blast doors and droids (and people) with the appropriate effect...

I like it!

Your mileage may however vary!

Thanks to everyone for posting all their ideas on how this puppy should work - it's been great food for thought!

[McCoy]

Necromancy!

'e's a witch!

'e turned me into a newt!