Multiform... maybe old question...

[RDU Neil]

Multiform states that the "true form" must pay the cost of the "most expensive form/5"

That's fine. I have a 300 pt. character with a 300 pt. second form, so the true form pays 60 pts. out of the 300 points they have to play with.

Then the character earns experience. Now the "true form" has 20 EXP... and is more expensive than the second form... so is it NOW the most expensive form, and thus HAS to pay four more points into the Multiform cost for a total of 64?

That is how the rule reads... unless the "true form" is not considered as part of the "forms" when figuring out what is the "most expensive form."

Some clarification, please? I could find nothing in the Rule FAQ.

If the former is the case. Then a character starting at 300 points, with a Multiform of 200 pts., would originally pay 60 points, even though their only form is 200... correct?

If the latter is the case, and the true form is kept out of the "most expensive form" consideration... then it makes more sense, but can be very easily abused, as a 200 pt. "true form" could be a normal with a five hundred points "most expensive form" and spend 100 points for this... and then spend all their time in their expensive form.
:eek:

I'm sure this has been answered before, but I'd appreciate some help, here.

Thanks

[MisterVimes]

The true form is excluded from the "Most expensive form"

[Monolith]

Here is what I could find in the Rules FAQ:


Q: Does every Experience Point earned and spent by the true form automatically give 5 Character Points to each of his alternate forms?

A: No. The basic rule for Multiforms and Experience Points is on 5E 138.


Q: If a character spends an Experience Point on his existing Multiform power, does each alternate get 5 Character Points to spend, or only the most powerful alternate, or what?

A: If a character spends points to improve his Multiform power, he has to decide what they go toward. He could use them to increase the number of forms, for example, in which case he just expands his options without increasing the “strength” of any form.

If you spend points with the intention of increasing the “strength” of (points used to build) the forms you can change into, each 1 Character Point you spend on Multiform increases the points in the most expensive form by 5 Character Points. That effect “cascades down,” if you will, increasing the points in every other form by 5 as well (assuming that’s appropriate and desired — some forms might, and should, stay exactly as they are, without ever improving, over the course of a character’s career).

Of course, this requires a certain amount of common sense. In effect this can quintuple the effectiveness of Experience Points spent on Multiform, leading to unbalancingly powerful forms. A player should have a good reason for wanting to increase the strength of his Multiforms this way, and the GM should review the power before approving the expenditure.

One good check on the whole situation is to allow a player to spend only 1 Experience Point of every 6 he earns on his Multiform. That way, the true form improves by 5 points for every 5 points his Multiform(s) improve by.


Q6: Wouldn’t it work better to treat Experience Points spent as dropping directly to the Base Points of the true form for the purpose of figuring the Disadadvantage requirement of alternate forms? By this method — spending points buying off true form Disadvantages cascades down to the Disadvantages of all alternate forms 1:1, and spending points improving the true form’s Characteristics/Powers/Skills/Talents/Perks means a choice between a 1:1 reduction of Disadvantages in the alternate forms or spending additional points from the true form for a 1:5 increase in Characteristics/Powers/Skills/Talents/Perks for the alternate forms.

A6: No, the method described above works better. First, your suggested method assumes the forms all lose Disadvantages at the same rate, and that’s not a safe assumption. Many alternate forms remain pretty much unchanged throughout the course of a character’s career, neither gaining abilities nor losing Disadvantages. Second, there’s no reason the true form’s earning and expenditure of Experience Points should automatically be reflected in the alternate forms, whether at a 1:1 rate or any other. The fact that the multiple forms share the same body does not mean they necessarily share the same experiences, grow and learn at the same rate, or experience the same changes. Thus, only points spent on the Multiform Power itself should have any effect.

Let me try to illustrate by example, though that’s a dangerous method. :) Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that you build the Hulk using Multiform. Banner is the true form; the Hulk is the alternate form. One game, the character spends most of his time as Banner, roleplaying and exploring a new city he’s visiting. He earns 2 Experience Points, and puts them into a CK 11- of the city itself (or some other KS). Why should that have any effect on the Hulk form? The Hulk doesn’t share Banner’s knowledge and hasn’t gained anything from his experiences. There’s no reason he should automatically gain 2 points’ worth of anything, or lose 2 points’ worth of Disadvantages.

On the other hand, let’s suppose there’s an adventure spent mostly as the Hulk, fighting bad guys and whatnot. The character’s true form — Banner — earns 2 Experience Points for this. Since he hasn’t done anything to earn them, and has had no experiences that would allow him to improve himself, he should spend those points on his Multiform, to improve the Hulk form in some way. (Or, if the GM prefers, save the points until he can spend 5 on himself and 1 on the Hulk, or whatever.) Based on the Hulk’s experiences, the expenditure of points on Multiform might be used to make him stronger, tougher, more intelligent, give him a KS of the foe he just defeated, or the like. Or, it could be used to buy down a Disadvantage; maybe the events of the adventure taught him anger management and reduced his Berserk.

In some situations, such as the suit of Vari-Armor described in one of the Multiform examples on 5E 137, the player must track the changes from character to character closely, because there’s not really a “change” taking place in the person himself. The guy in the armor learns the same stuff regardless of how he configures his suit, so he needs to be sure to augment his forms to reflect the KSs and other stuff he himself learns. But he could improve the “strength” of one armor configuration without touching the others. In the case of the strongest suit of armor, he would spend points on his Multiform, creating 1:5 “Experience Points” for the form, and which would cascade down to the others (and be ignored, if he had no reason to improve those suits). For the lesser suits, he could wait for some cascading points later on, or (more likely) it would require the GM’s permission to boost them a little, within the confines of the points in the strongest suit. (This is similar to adding Nightvision to an owl after you forgot it, as discussed above, but in a different context and requiring even more GM monitoring.)

[RDU Neil]

So the rule is basically, "If you have multiform, you get five experience points for every one that the other players get."
As a bonus, the GM has to ride roughshod on how those points are spent, essentially telling the player what to do with the experience, causing conflict in the group, to maintain ANY semblance of balance in the game. :eek:

Absolutely, ridiculously stupid. That is utterly moronic.(Not you, Monolith... the person who made that rule.)

You build a character with an interesting concept, and find yourself gaining EXP five times faster than the rest of the group. Billy Batson never changes, but Captain Marvel gets five times the experience. If you play the character like Prime, from the Ultraverse comics, there is no reason ever to change back into the child form, and the player gets five times the rate of power growth as other players... because of an utterly broken rule. One that was NOT broken in 4th Edition, because the "true form" had to be the most expensive. That, at least, made some sense, if somewhat limiting. This new ruling is not just abusable... it is flat out unplayable. :mad:

[feywulf]

Originally posted by RDU Neil
So the rule is basically, "If you have multiform, you get five experience points for every one that the other players get."
As a bonus, the GM has to ride roughshod on how those points are spent, essentially telling the player what to do with the experience, causing conflict in the group, to maintain ANY semblance of balance in the game. :eek:



The multiforms do not get 5 exp per exp given to the true form. A multiform gets as many points as the true form spends on it, with the following restriction. Any points that the multiform has beyond the total of basepoints and experience of the true form must be accounted for with disadvantages. A character with multiform can spend 1 out of every 5 experience points to keep his multiforms as experienced as the true form. A multiform may have more disadvantages than the true form and isn't spending any of its points on multiform, and thus may have more points than the true form.

At least that is what i think that the write up for multiform in 5th edition means.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by RDU Neil
So the rule is basically, "If you have multiform, you get five experience points for every one that the other players get."
As a bonus, the GM has to ride roughshod on how those points are spent, essentially telling the player what to do with the experience, causing conflict in the group, to maintain ANY semblance of balance in the game. :eek:

Absolutely, ridiculously stupid. That is utterly moronic.(Not you, Monolith... the person who made that rule.)

You build a character with an interesting concept, and find yourself gaining EXP five times faster than the rest of the group. Billy Batson never changes, but Captain Marvel gets five times the experience. If you play the character like Prime, from the Ultraverse comics, there is no reason ever to change back into the child form, and the player gets five times the rate of power growth as other players... because of an utterly broken rule. One that was NOT broken in 4th Edition, because the "true form" had to be the most expensive. That, at least, made some sense, if somewhat limiting. This new ruling is not just abusable... it is flat out unplayable. :mad:

So you didn't even bother to read what was posted then. Sigh...

One of the most important things in what Monolith copied over was the "One good check on the whole situation is to allow a player to spend only 1 Experience Point of every 6 he earns on his Multiform. That way, the true form improves by 5 points for every 5 points his Multiform(s) improve by." portion of the exercise. But rather than actually reading what was written, you feel the need to make a personal attack against Steve.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by archermoo
So you didn't even bother to read what was posted then. Sigh...

One of the most important things in what Monolith copied over was the "One good check on the whole situation is to allow a player to spend only 1 Experience Point of every 6 he earns on his Multiform. That way, the true form improves by 5 points for every 5 points his Multiform(s) improve by." portion of the exercise. But rather than actually reading what was written, you feel the need to make a personal attack against Steve.

Well, let's not make too big a deal out of a blunt criticism of a rule, a criticism that I think is unfounded. I think someone who doesn't like multiform as it is written should try to write up the multiform rules and achieve a better balance to gain some perspective.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by Agent X
Well, let's not make too big a deal out of a blunt criticism of a rule, a criticism that I think is unfounded. I think someone who doesn't like multiform as it is written should try to write up the multiform rules and achieve a better balance to gain some perspective.

I wouldn't have mentioned it at all, but he specifically stated that the epitaphs he used were to apply to the person who wrote the rule. He didn't say the rule itself, he went out of his way to specifically say "the person who made that rule".

[RDU Neil]

It is moronic, and I have a problem with anyone who doesn't see that.

>>> "One good check on the whole situation is to allow a player to spend only 1 Experience Point of every 6 he earns on his Multiform. That way, the true form improves by 5 points for every 5 points his Multiform(s) improve by." <<<

So if this was intended to be the case, why isn't it in FReD? There is an entire paragraph under Multiform dedicated to how to spend EXP, and it doesn't even mention this kind of required GM oversight. It is still saying, "Here's a power that, as written, is abused by spending any EXP to improve extra forms, so you have to have special oversight on it. Not just special oversight at creation, but continual oversight, every time EXP is rewarded."

This isn't a "Spyglass" or "Stop Sign" issue where a power MIGHT be abusable or over powered in certain situations, this is a power, by definition, that unbalances a character... period.

I you want a better write-up... here it is.

Multiform costs 1pt per 5pts of POTENTIAL character points in a second form. Example... 60 points buys 300 POTENTIAL points that have to be filled up by Base points (equal to the true characters base points), Disadvantages (equal to the true characters disadvantages, more or less if GM allows during construction), and Experience.

Example... starting true character is 300 points, 150 bsae and 150 disads. Second form is 300 points, 150 base points and 150 disads. When EXP is earned, the player can choose whether to spend to spend the points on the True character or on the second form.

If the character chooses to spend EXP on the secondary form, it can't put the forms total point over the POTENTIAL total, as determined by the Multiform cost. Example... a 60 point multiform means a MAX 300 point second form... so if you wanted to spend 5 EXP on the second form, you'd have to spend 1 pt on the Multiform cost... now 61... and you get the POTENTIAL for five more points, which is then filled with 5 EXP. Six points of EXP gain only 6 points of powers/skills spread among the two forms. 1 into Multiform, five into actual skills/powers whatever on the second form.

If you do it the way suggested earlier, you still net 10 EXP for every 6. Five for the true form, and five for the secondary form. Still unbalanced. Even more so if you have multiple forms. Then it is 10 + 5 for every form beyond the second... all for 6 points. That's nuts!

My way, it's one for one, like every other character. The player does have to pay 6 points for every five it wants to increase the second form... but this is a small price for the flexibility of having two unique characters and the ability to switch between them. Think of it like a control cost on a VPP (cheaper by far 1 per five, instead of 1 per 2) where the VPP is limited to the second character. You can't increase the VPP without increasing the control cost... and you certainly don't increase the VPP by ONLY increasing the control cost. You have to put points into both. Why should Multiform break this common concept?

Answer: It doens't have to, it shouldn't, and with my write up, it won't.

[archermoo]

Ah, the "I'm right, you're wrong, and if you disagree you're a moron to boot" defense. Gee, I guess I should've seen that one comming.:rolleyes:

So your "fix" for multiform is to make sure that people that use it fall further and further behind the curve as more and more XP are given out. Yes, they have more forms available to them, but each one keeps getting less and less powerful compared to the other characters in the campaign. Yeah, that's balanced. :rolleyes:

[Tom McCarthy]

I wish people wouldn't bring up this Supreme argument again and again. I haven't read the comic, but the argument is that the character's true form is an incompetent or child, but he resumes it very, very rarely, if at all.

Any GM worth any salt isn't going to let the true form be one the player never assumes or uses.

In my campaign, a player with that Supreme concept would quickly find that the superheroic form is the true or base form, and he's paying just a few points to be able to multiform to a child (probably covered by an accidental change disadvantage).

But then, I am a GM who runs "roughshod" over his players. I wouldn't let one player have a 10D6 RKA. Another was prevented from being SPD 7. I made another buy LS to complement his FTL. I've even handed out experience points and dictated where they must be spent ("Last night's adventure netted you each 3 XP, which have been spent on Favour: Kris Kringle").

[Storn]

I'm the player with the character in question.

I originally built the character, Drake, with some powers Only In Hero ID. Then, in an order to get to know 5th somewhat, I decided I would try the character as a multiform, the concept can certainly accept it. OIHD is looking more and more like the "easier" way to do it. I don't really care if I get more points one way or the other.

It was just in OIHD, my powers were getting a bit complex in that I had powers and abilities in my "normal" form. I'm playing a martial artist who is 1/2 dragon. In a campaign of "other" dragon "avatars".

With multiform, there is a real reason to improve the Drake form. The campaign has us tapping into primal powers But, the 1/5 ratio (or 6exp to tru form, 1 =5 for multi form) is a real deal.

I only have one multiform. I have no plans on getting another.

As for Neil's frustration, yeah, Neil, ya might have overstated it <g>. But the passage on Multiform is badly worded and/or crafted. From the write up, I'm not sure if I increase my true form's, Kevin, multiform cost, then I get 1 pt or 5 pts. If it is 1 pt, then that is a rip-off and makes no sense, because I'm paying 2 pts for every pt. Other characters will quickly exceed me. If it is 5 pts, that is too much. Then I will quickly exceed everyone else. And if I do get 5 pts (per 1 true form pt), then do I have to buy a Disad to balance the cost?

I think the simplest fix is that you CAN put XP on the multiform. It is 1 pt after character creation. So I get 3 xp during an adventure. I can put all or none of it on any form, but I only get a total of 3. This isn't overpowering or underpowering and its fair... AND IT IS SIMPLE!!!

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by archermoo
So you didn't even bother to read what was posted then. Sigh...

One of the most important things in what Monolith copied over was the "One good check on the whole situation is to allow a player to spend only 1 Experience Point of every 6 he earns on his Multiform. That way, the true form improves by 5 points for every 5 points his Multiform(s) improve by." portion of the exercise. But rather than actually reading what was written, you feel the need to make a personal attack against Steve.

That's exactly the way we've been adjudicating that rule. My wife has the only Multiform character in the group and Her 'Primary form' is at 421 points and the 'Secondary Form' is at 420. I find it keeps the balance and prevents "Capatin Marveling" were a PC has a MUCH weaker form and spends ALL their points to upgrade the Muliform... there is always someone who wants to do that, essentially getting 5x the xp you give everyone else.

[Storn]

Originally posted by Tom McCarthy
I wish people wouldn't bring up this Supreme argument again and again. I haven't read the comic, but the argument is that the character's true form is an incompetent or child, but he resumes it very, very rarely, if at all.

Any GM worth any salt isn't going to let the true form be one the player never assumes or uses.

In my campaign, a player with that Supreme concept would quickly find that the superheroic form is the true or base form, and he's paying just a few points to be able to multiform to a child (probably covered by an accidental change disadvantage).

But then, I am a GM who runs "roughshod" over his players. I wouldn't let one player have a 10D6 RKA. Another was prevented from being SPD 7. I made another buy LS to complement his FTL. I've even handed out experience points and dictated where they must be spent ("Last night's adventure netted you each 3 XP, which have been spent on Favour: Kris Kringle").

Tom, I'm playing a character who is a decent, if not smarter and more skilled, martial artist than his "Drake" persona. Kevin doesn't always want to be Drake. No disad, I just role-play it out. Kevin has Find Weakness with martial arts, Drake doesn't. Drake is a helluva lot tougher and stronger though. Both forms have advantages. So the Supreme paradigm is not at work here. I am in my "true form" a lot.

And I'm a player, as Neil can tell you, who gets very angry being "run over roughshod". Suggestions are fine. And sometimes I don't have a place to spend xp and I'll ask Neil's opinion. but I work closely with a GM on xp spending and the character is MINE, not yours. A GM has the whole REST of the world to play with/in. I only have this one insignificant representative in that world (Ok.. caught me, in RDU, I have about 25 PCs, but you get the point).

Hey, I'm a GM too. I don[t want to shanghai a campaign, I want a good story. Cooperation is the best way to achieve that. And as a GM, I might give out an EXTRA xp for Favor: Kris Kringle. But I would never make the players buy the favor.

But we are lucky. We have players who are not mini-maxers. We also have multiple characters, so if someone wants to play a combat machine/monster, he can do so. but the next character will explore a whole different avenue.

Your mileage varies. As long as your players are happy, I guess that is cool.

[Monolith]

Personally, I just give XPs to each of the forms separately. If the Hulk does something to earn 3 XP, he gets 3 XP. If Banner does something to earn 3 XP, he gets 3 XP. After the original creation I just let each character develope on their own. The fact that the Hulk might get 20 point more powerful without Banner paying 4 points really is not an issue to me.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Monolith
Personally, I just give XPs to each of the forms separately. If the Hulk does something to earn 3 XP, he gets 3 XP. If Banner does something to earn 3 XP, he gets 3 XP. After the original creation I just let each character develope on their own. The fact that the Hulk might get 20 point more powerful without Banner paying 4 points really is not an issue to me.

No, and if you are doing it that way (rather than allowing the primary form to spend xp to upgrade the secondary form) then you maintain playbalance as well. I would have no problem with that other than the question of book-keeping (i.e. Ok... you were Bob for half the adventure and Stunning Steve the Two headed Spider-Monkey-Man for the second half... carry the thre... does math... head explodes... :D )

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by archermoo
So your "fix" for multiform is to make sure that people that use it fall further and further behind the curve as more and more XP are given out. Yes, they have more forms available to them, but each one keeps getting less and less powerful compared to the other characters in the campaign. Yeah, that's balanced.

This argument doesn't make sense. The player can spend 1 for 1 EXP on their "true form" if they wish... but if they want to spend points to build up the flexibility they get with a second form, it costs slightly more than 1 per 1. I don't see how that is a problem. The flexibility of two or more separate characters with distinctive powers and abilities, that you can switch between, depending on which is more appropriate for the situation at hand... is certainly worth a 20% tax on point cost. That is LESS than a 1/4 advantage on EVERY ACTIVE POINT SPENT. It's an unbelievable deal, compared to any other method of building a character.

To say that the other characters become "less and less powerful" is a false comparison. Leave multiform out for a second, and take the difference between two 300 pt. characters, both of whom earn 10 EXP. One puts all 10 into upping their EB by 10 active points. The other puts 10 points into their VPP, getting 7 active points, because the control cost of 3 has to be paid. (If you round in the players favor. Next ten points, it will be 6 and 4.) If this happens over time, would you say that the first player far out powers the second, because the second doesn't get 1 for 1 active point value? I'd hope not. The second player is simply paying for flexibility over raw power.

Multiform is the same thing. The MF cost is just a control cost for a much, much cheaper VPP with the limitation "Always the same secondary character." It's an extremely beneficial, flexible power... with a very low cost, without being bah-roken like the official interpretation. Why is that so hard to see? :rolleyes:

Anyway... to keep things simple, I'll probably go with Monolith's basic idea. You pay a MF cost upon construction, or when the power is initially given to the character. After that, the player just gets EXP like everyone else, and spends it on whatever ever form they want, 1 for 1. It's slightly unbalanced in favor of the MF character, but not anything close to a 5x rate of EXP growth or more.

[Talon]

Originally posted by RDU Neil
So if this was intended to be the case, why isn't it in FReD? There is an entire paragraph under Multiform dedicated to how to spend EXP, and it doesn't even mention this kind of required GM oversight. It is still saying, "Here's a power that, as written, is abused by spending any EXP to improve extra forms, so you have to have special oversight on it. Not just special oversight at creation, but continual oversight, every time EXP is rewarded."

The abuse isn't limited to spending XP, since there's no longer any point limit on the other forms (i.e., you can create 8 350 point Multiforms, each of which is as powerful as each other PC). That is also inherently abusive -- useful at times, but abusive.

Instead of saying "forms don't gain XP normally", FREd should have talked about how limited alternate forms to the true form's total minus the cost of the Multiform is a good way to maintain balance -- although of course this would be just a guideline. Similiarly, when the character spends XP on Multiform, the point total for each form shouldn't be allowed to increase faster than the point totals for other PCs -- again, just a guideline. (Also, remember that if the form is already at the maximum point total allowed, then it can't increase more than the number of XP applied to the true form without breaking the rules.)

The problem I have with applying XP to each form is that it creates a difference in the writeups: a 350 + 25 XP Multiform character is different from a 375 Multiform character. It's possible to treat them the same without being abusive, which seems preferable to me.

[Chaosliege]

Originally posted by Monolith
Personally, I just give XPs to each of the forms separately. If the Hulk does something to earn 3 XP, he gets 3 XP. If Banner does something to earn 3 XP, he gets 3 XP. After the original creation I just let each character develope on their own. The fact that the Hulk might get 20 point more powerful without Banner paying 4 points really is not an issue to me.

I like this idea, and if I'm not mistaken, it's compleatly rules right. Adding XPs to the multiform doesn't raise the Base, so bruce doesn't have to pay 4 pt to get 20 on the HULK if the HULK got 20 XP. I dont have my book right here to verify this, but I think that's right.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by RDU Neil
This argument doesn't make sense. The player can spend 1 for 1 EXP on their "true form" if they wish... but if they want to spend points to build up the flexibility they get with a second form, it costs slightly more than 1 per 1. I don't see how that is a problem. The flexibility of two or more separate characters with distinctive powers and abilities, that you can switch between, depending on which is more appropriate for the situation at hand... is certainly worth a 20% tax on point cost. That is LESS than a 1/4 advantage on EVERY ACTIVE POINT SPENT. It's an unbelievable deal, compared to any other method of building a character.

To say that the other characters become "less and less powerful" is a false comparison. Leave multiform out for a second, and take the difference between two 300 pt. characters, both of whom earn 10 EXP. One puts all 10 into upping their EB by 10 active points. The other puts 10 points into their VPP, getting 7 active points, because the control cost of 3 has to be paid. (If you round in the players favor. Next ten points, it will be 6 and 4.) If this happens over time, would you say that the first player far out powers the second, because the second doesn't get 1 for 1 active point value? I'd hope not. The second player is simply paying for flexibility over raw power.

Multiform is the same thing. The MF cost is just a control cost for a much, much cheaper VPP with the limitation "Always the same secondary character." It's an extremely beneficial, flexible power... with a very low cost, without being bah-roken like the official interpretation. Why is that so hard to see? :rolleyes:

Anyway... to keep things simple, I'll probably go with Monolith's basic idea. You pay a MF cost upon construction, or when the power is initially given to the character. After that, the player just gets EXP like everyone else, and spends it on whatever ever form they want, 1 for 1. It's slightly unbalanced in favor of the MF character, but not anything close to a 5x rate of EXP growth or more.

Your VPP argument is the false comparison. Multiform isn't a VPP, it is the ability to have two or more seperate character writeups. If you wish to change that in your house rules, more power to you. Do it however you want in your games. But if a multiform character has 2 different forms, using your method if the points are being split evenly between the two forms after 50 XP, the MF character will have an extra 30 points on his true form (5 towards increasing the MF cost), and an extra 20 in his extra form. And everyone else will have an extra 50 in their main form. Assuming the standard starting points, everyone except MF man will have 400 point characters, but MF man will have a 380 point character and a 370 point character. After 100 XP, everyone will have 450 point characters, but MF man will have a 410 point character and a 390 point character. And he'll just keep falling further and further behind.

But all that is beside my main point. If you don't like the multiform rules, fine. Don't use them. Make up whatever you want. Run your game however you want, it's your game. Knock yourself out. But leveling personal attacks against people because you disagree with them is childish.

[tesuji]

IMO...

The cost for multipower should have remained in the "paid by the most expensive character." this means the most expensive character form is the one paid for at the same scale as everyone else. that eliminates the 5/1 experience thingy.

The true form should have been a separate issue, being simply a defined state for which form you revert to if multiform is dispelled or suppressed or drained or otherwise nullified.

TRUE FORM is an FX issue, not an accounting issue.

WHICH FORM PAYS THE COST **is** an accounting issue, not an FX issue.

IMO the problem in HERO5 multiform is the merging of those two disparate factors.

other restrictions may be needed but this would be a minimum.

*********************

Might this make some character concepts which are valid and balanced illegal?

maybe?

but the Gm can make exceptions, right?

[JohnOSpencer]

Originally posted by Tom McCarthy
IAny GM worth any salt isn't going to let the true form be one the player never assumes or uses.

Actually one of my characters is just like that. I told him he can spend 1 out of every 5 XPs on his multiform, and he is fine with that. He is only a multiform to keep his concept. He's not even planning on spending the other 4/5 XP on anything. The players and GM should work together to make sure the characters are balanced, since it is in their best interest, if you have players that look to "abuse" the rules to make their characters too powerful, you should rein them in or ask them to leave. It's all about everyone's enjoyment.

John Spencer

[Chaosliege]

It was posted here before, a perfect solution to this problem. First you have to define the cost of the multiform. The MAIN character only pays 1/5 for BASE points in the Multiform. If your multiform has it's own set of disadvantages, and most do, then it can have it's own experience. Just give the player 5xp(or whatever you're giving for that game) and tell him/her that the exp can be spent to improve the primary character or spent as xp on the multiform(never changing the BASE points).

[zornwil]

I think the multiform changes in 5th were a good attempt at consistency though I'm still not sure if they are good or bad. As someone stated, the "true" form paying the cost may be a violation of the game's design though as it is enforcing an SFX to be a mechanic. The problem with the line of logic that this is just an accounting issue and that "true form" is simply SFX is that it then counters the whole way that duplicates and summon and followers are done - the true character form pays for those things.

So for now I'm willing to play it the 5th ed way, I think it may be okay and creates different challenges to be kept track of. As far as gaining XP, I find it simplest and not unfair to grant the points ot the true form and let the character decide. But I do like Monolith's approach of granting XP to each form as according to deeds. The problem I have with implementing that is that a multiform character may change several times in a combat as well as an adventure, so this gets way tricky.

I dunno though it is a potential issue that a true form bulks up the commonly used form with the 1/5 spend. But the same can be said of a follower or a summoned character.

The interesting thing about the true form is that it gives the GM a lot of plot play, being able to yank it into play and such. So if a character wants to go ahead and leave his true form way behind the curve on points, when crunch time happens and he's stuck in it, well then he pays the price. And no I do not mean that as the "cruel GM" tactic, I mean it as good storytelling and simply a logical environmental circumstance. It even works by gamist standards. All three should be happy. Oh wait, wrong thread.

Back on topic, I'll be observing this first-hand as we have a strange multiform character in my current game. He certainly knows how to abuse the rules but chooses not to (at least most of the time!) and we've gone over his character quite a bit. We'll see how it grows.

On a related note, and I'm sure many think this is way too lenient/abusive, but I do NOT count disadvantages against forms (same with followers, duplicates, summons, etc.) as long as they are real disadvantages when the form appears. The reason is simple enough, I think they work against the form. So in other words, if you have a 200 point form at 40 real poins to the true form and you have for that other form an additional 50 points in disads, you have 250. I used to do the same with all base characters but am not currently. I may go back to that someday.

[Titan]

You build a character with an interesting concept, and find yourself gaining EXP five times faster than the rest of the group. Billy Batson never changes, but Captain Marvel gets five times the experience.

If this is a poor way to build a Billy Batson/Captain Marvel Character, then what is a better way? In 4th Ed., I built this type of character and simply used "instant change". 5th Ed. seems to have changed that to "transform- cosmetic only" which doesn't seem to apply.

Multiform seems the most rules appropriate way to build the character. Problem is, I can make several good arguments as to why Billy is the "true" form, not the least of which is that he existed prior to Capt. Marvel. Regardless, Billy really doesn't change much and Captain Marvel does get more powerful. How do you reflect this in game terms?

[tesuji]

If this is a poor way to build a Billy Batson/Captain Marvel Character, then what is a better way? In 4th Ed., I built this type of character and simply used "instant change". 5th Ed. seems to have changed that to "transform- cosmetic only" which doesn't seem to apply.

Multiform seems the most rules appropriate way to build the character. Problem is, I can make several good arguments as to why Billy is the "true" form, not the least of which is that he existed prior to Capt. Marvel. Regardless, Billy really doesn't change much and Captain Marvel does get more powerful. How do you reflect this in game terms?

the issue comes from linking "true form" and "the former that pays the points".

this makes abuses easy.

instead, make it a must that the form that costs the most pays the multiform cost. limit all other multiforms to that character's total MINUS the multiform. (just like in 4th.) leave "true form" out of that MATH BALANCE MODEL.

Now then, for true form, you set as the default assumption to be "the true form is the most powerful one". Then you allow, for those cases where it is reasonable, a limitation on the multiform that says "the true form is not the most powerful one." thgis reflects that when the multiform is cancelled, including involuntarily cancelled, the character will revert to a weaker form and thus be at a disadvantage.

Someone with "force to true form" as a multiform dispel hitting a werewolf would shift him from wolfey to normal guy... and that would be bad for him, especially if the transformation back is painful and takes time. that deserves a limitation, assuming the power is relatively available within the genre.

Summary:
1. highest cost character buys multiform. this is the one which has to meet campaign total point tally.
2. secondary forms cannot exceed that of the highest guy minus whever he spent on multioform.
3. if the true form is defined as a weaker form and not the strongest, the character paying for the multiform takes a limitation (ranging probably from -0 to -1/2 on a case by case basis based on comparative strengths of the forms AND the frequency of involuntary changes) on the multiform power.

[Hugh Neilson]

the issue comes from linking "true form" and "the former that pays the points".

this makes abuses easy.

Well, possible anyway.


.
Summary:
1. highest cost character buys multiform. this is the one which has to meet campaign total point tally.
2. secondary forms cannot exceed that of the highest guy minus whever he spent on multioform.
3. if the true form is defined as a weaker form and not the strongest, the character paying for the multiform takes a limitation (ranging probably from -0 to -1/2 on a case by case basis based on comparative strengths of the forms AND the frequency of involuntary changes) on the multiform power.

This gets us off to a start. What if we have two forms that are more or less equal? Let's say the "true form" is a 300 point character, plus a 50 point multiform for a 350 point base form and a 250 point alternate form. Well and good.

Our true form now earns 25 xp, and wants to spend it on Multiform, making his Mutiform cost 75 points. Also good. He's now a 375 point character, and the Multiform is a 375 point character.

If he earns 5 more points, and wants to boost te multiform, the secondary form now becomes the base form, since it has more points - and we have to transfer the Multiform power. Bit of a mess there...

I find it easier to simply impose some common sense campaign guidelines. Technically, my character could be a baseline human norm with 350 points all spent on Multiform, making a 1,750 point secondary form (with 1,550 points of disad's! :jawdrop: ). But, for game balance, I would simply rule that no form may have more total points than the base character (ie 350 + xp of the base character).

Now, that may let out a build of some form, and I'm open to concepts that may requiore a breach of the rule. An example may be a FH mage with a spell that transforms him into a Dragon. But as a base rule, I would not allow a character to have more points in the Multiform than the character would have.

Captain Marvel with Billy as the base form? I can see a few ways to deal with him:

(a) Billy gets 1/5 the xp of everyone else, which he spends to buy up the Multiform, such that Cap gets the same increase to total points that all the other heroes get. This would work best where the second form is the "real" character, and basically writes off the Multiform as a special effect.

(b) Billy can't send more than 1/5 of his xp on the Multiform, so Cap stays at the same level as his peers. Billy spends the rest on other things, but not on the Multiform. This acknolwdges Billy as a second form, with its own abilities.

(c) Why Multiform? Use Billy as the base and buy all of Cap's abilities "only in hero ID". Certainly, there have been stories where the magic lightning is inaccessible, so the OIHID powers aren't available. This, to me, is the classic Big Red Cheese, since he can do everything Billy can anyway.

[tesuji]

This gets us off to a start. What if we have two forms that are more or less equal? Let's say the "true form" is a 300 point character, plus a 50 point multiform for a 350 point base form and a 250 point alternate form. Well and good.

Our true form now earns 25 xp, and wants to spend it on Multiform, making his Mutiform cost 75 points. Also good. He's now a 375 point character, and the Multiform is a 375 point character.


We can stop there.

the other forms are limited to no more than the top form minus the multiform, so you cannot have a 375 form spend as much to raise his other forms to 375 as well. Its effectively impossible to have the form that pays for the multiform get passed by the others. So your "problem case" is a no-no.

Now, what if, you might ask, there comes a point where by story and such it would be a reasonable thing for the biggest form to change?

Well, i would treat that as a substantial character event, such as is usually reserved for "radiation accident" and the player, with Gm oversight, would rewrite the character. Whatever his new paid-for-multiform character is, its at the total experience of the character stage, and the other forms are just that value minus multiform cost MAX.

but, typically, i would suspect the frequency of "top guy siwtches" to be few.

But, in short, keeping the other forms limited by the paid-for-multiform (PFM) form, and giving experience to the PFM form, ends any worries about FIVE TIMES EXPERIENCE rate gains and all that nonsense.

[izzylobo]

Personally, I just give XPs to each of the forms separately. If the Hulk does something to earn 3 XP, he gets 3 XP. If Banner does something to earn 3 XP, he gets 3 XP. After the original creation I just let each character develope on their own. The fact that the Hulk might get 20 point more powerful without Banner paying 4 points really is not an issue to me.

This works for characters where their different forms are significantly different in personality, structure, form, or something (Banner vs. Hulk, perhaps Thor vs. Dr whateverhisnamewas).

But how do you handle Tony Stark - Multiform (and a really large one) is the easiest way to handle the fact that he's got around half a dozen to a dozen suits of Iron Man armor in the hangar at any one time (Thorbuster, Hulkbuster, Space Armor mk. whatever, Stealth Armor, General Purpose Suit mk lots, etc.) without resorting to a hideously large VPP, or using Vehicles to represent all of those suits - which might or might not be appropriate, but is certainly suggested to be something looked really closely at. It's *the same guy* in the armor - only the armor changes between Multiforms (Multiform - Tony Stark to Tony Stark in Iron Man armor - same basic characteristics and skills, talents, etc., with enhancements bought as Powers).

It doesn't make much sense to suggest that the experience was earned by the suit - or even that the experience was so specific that it only applies to that combat suit - which makes some sense - but what if he's using one of the older suits (Iron Man mk Whatever-1 - kept as a backup unit) for some reason? He's certainly not going to spend any time tinkering on that suit, but if he's got XPs to spend, does that mean he has to spend them on "+1 OCV, Only With Mk. Whatever-1 Combat Systems" or something?

Seems messy.

Scott Taylor

[JmOz]

PRIME & Captain Marvel are not Multiforms, they are OIHID...jsut adding wood

[Hugh Neilson]

But how do you handle Tony Stark - Multiform (and a really large one) is the easiest way to handle the fact that he's got around half a dozen to a dozen suits of Iron Man armor in the hangar at any one time (Thorbuster, Hulkbuster, Space Armor mk. whatever, Stealth Armor, General Purpose Suit mk lots, etc.) without resorting to a hideously large VPP, or using Vehicles to represent all of those suits - which might or might not be appropriate, but is certainly suggested to be something looked really closely at.

The VPP would work if you viewed Tony as a gadgeteer, but one whose primary "gadget" is an armored suit. A multiform would be limited in that he can't change it readily. A multipower with the various armor modules, and a limitation on reallocating the reserve, would also work, but would be very cumbersome because he already has multipowers within his armor (at least as I'd write him up).

Vehicles might be the best approach. Maybe one vehicle with Duplication, Altered Duplicates, Cannot Recombine - hey, he can be a complex character if you want. That leaves the base Tony Stark unchanged, and the vehicles will cost depending on how much common ground they share, since the advantage for Altered Duplicates depends on the degree of variance from the base.

And who says everything Stark has is there in Iron Man form? Tony knows some martial arts (trained by Captain America), but IM never seems to use it.

[izzylobo]

The VPP would work if you viewed Tony as a gadgeteer, but one whose primary "gadget" is an armored suit. A multiform would be limited in that he can't change it readily. A multipower with the various armor modules, and a limitation on reallocating the reserve, would also work, but would be very cumbersome because he already has multipowers within his armor (at least as I'd write him up).

Multipower is almost a necessity - too many of Stark's devices have been shown to be too multi-purpose (some of that can be handled in FReD with things like spreading attacks, etc. - but the chest-mounted omnibeam (the navigational deflector array of the Marvel Universe - it slices, it dices, it makes julienne fries) really needs to be a multipower - Images, EB, RKA, etc.) to not use them. Which either requires the GM to waive the rule against power constructs inside a construct, or another way.



Vehicles might be the best approach. Maybe one vehicle with Duplication, Altered Duplicates, Cannot Recombine - hey, he can be a complex character if you want. That leaves the base Tony Stark unchanged, and the vehicles will cost depending on how much common ground they share, since the advantage for Altered Duplicates depends on the degree of variance from the base.


Vehicles could work, with a large enough point base. It would take a bunch of jiggering of numbers to see where the optimal spread would be - you'd likely have, essentially, two different Vehicle pools - one for the smaller stuff (duplication, altered duplicates, cannot recombine, great difference between duplicates) - to handle the Space Armor (itself using a vehicle in the latest incarnations to achieve orbit), Stealth Armor, Iron Man GP suit, War Machine variant, Heavy-G variant, etc., and one (same basic package, higher point cost, limited difference between duplicates) to handle the various "high power, limited use" suits - Thorbuster, Hulkbuster, etc.



And who says everything Stark has is there in Iron Man form? Tony knows some martial arts (trained by Captain America), but IM never seems to use it.

Oh, you might be able to shave a few points here and there for "stuff Tony NEVER uses in the armor" (although now, with his Public Identity, that goes down even further, since all of his social contacts, etc. are available to him without limitation).

And you just know, as soon as we built "the definitive Tony Stark" at last (wasn't Ogier30 working on that, at one time?) and said "you know, Tony just NEVER uses his Cap-trained martial arts (or gun fu, or whatever - Tony's a pretty solid combatant even without his armor, at this point, for a normal), the Mandarin's kid would show up to kick Tony's ass for some obscure zen reason, and Tony would bust out the Kung Fu Too Suit, and go all Matrix on his ass... :o

Scott Taylor

[Hugh Neilson]

And you just know, as soon as we built "the definitive Tony Stark" at last (wasn't Ogier30 working on that, at one time?) and said "you know, Tony just NEVER uses his Cap-trained martial arts (or gun fu, or whatever - Tony's a pretty solid combatant even without his armor, at this point, for a normal), the Mandarin's kid would show up to kick Tony's ass for some obscure zen reason, and Tony would bust out the Kung Fu Too Suit, and go all Matrix on his ass...

Well, he has his own monthly (sometimes twice monthly) book, Avengers, varous guest appearances and those adventures that don't get published...the man's gonna spend his xp's! :nya:

[tesuji]

I can make several good arguments as to why Billy is the "true" form, not the least of which is that he existed prior to Capt. Marvel. Regardless, Billy really doesn't change much and Captain Marvel does get more powerful. How do you reflect this in game terms?

to give a briefer version of my previous post...

Do the following:

Build the more powerful character (CM) as "the character" for game purposes. give him a multiform to reflect billy batson, which would likely be a small cost character, maybe in the 100 pt range so a MF cost of around 20.

Put a limitation on the multipower of (rough eyeball estimate) -1/4 to -1/2 for "true form is the batson form", determining the value loosely by how frequently he will encounter variations on "dispel multiform" or similar effects which will force him to the batson form. if it will never happen or will happen too infrequently to matter, then its a -0.

marvel is "the character". marvel is the one who the player spends the experience on. When it is appropriate for billy to improve, the player spends experience to improve the multiform powere that the CM character has, allowing billy more points.

the key to remember is that billy, for chargen, balance and experience purposes, is no more "a character" than doc ock's extra limbs, batman's batmobile, deathlok's AI, or the fantastic fours flying car and skyscraper base. All of these are "things bought for the character" and while they may in game be treated as characters, may take actions on their own and have their own write ups and character sheets, they do not gain Xp, they do not spend Xp, and they only change when the CHARACTER improves his multiform, his base, his Ai, or his vehicle trait by spending HIS XP on "it."

keep the multiforms limited to no more than the paid-for-multiform (PFM) form minus the multiform cost and allow a lim to set the "true form" to weaker forms when appropriate and the things work out rather nicely.

heck, i have had occasion where an entire entity, one that seemed a "character" in the game side (interacted with people, tok actions etc) was nothing more than a disad. That did not mean i started looking at giving it its own experience point share.

:-)

Ok so maybe it wasn't shorter.

[JmOz]

to give a briefer version of my previous post...

Do the following:

Build the more powerful character (CM) as "the character" for game purposes. give him a multiform to reflect billy batson, which would likely be a small cost character, maybe in the 100 pt range so a MF cost of around 20.

Put a limitation on the multipower of (rough eyeball estimate) -1/4 to -1/2 for "true form is the batson form", determining the value loosely by how frequently he will encounter variations on "dispel multiform" or similar effects which will force him to the batson form. if it will never happen or will happen too infrequently to matter, then its a -0.

marvel is "the character". marvel is the one who the player spends the experience on. When it is appropriate for billy to improve, the player spends experience to improve the multiform powere that the CM character has, allowing billy more points.

the key to remember is that billy, for chargen, balance and experience purposes, is no more "a character" than doc ock's extra limbs, batman's batmobile, deathlok's AI, or the fantastic fours flying car and skyscraper base. All of these are "things bought for the character" and while they may in game be treated as characters, may take actions on their own and have their own write ups and character sheets, they do not gain Xp, they do not spend Xp, and they only change when the CHARACTER improves his multiform, his base, his Ai, or his vehicle trait by spending HIS XP on "it."

keep the multiforms limited to no more than the paid-for-multiform (PFM) form minus the multiform cost and allow a lim to set the "true form" to weaker forms when appropriate and the things work out rather nicely.

heck, i have had occasion where an entire entity, one that seemed a "character" in the game side (interacted with people, tok actions etc) was nothing more than a disad. That did not mean i started looking at giving it its own experience point share.

:-)

Ok so maybe it wasn't shorter.

Of all the ideas this one seems best to me somehow...

Also you are allwrong about the most abuseive portion of this power...It is that it is now a STANDARD power that can be put in a MP

[Dr. Anomaly]

Build the more powerful character (CM) as "the character" for game purposes. give him a multiform to reflect billy batson, which would likely be a small cost character, maybe in the 100 pt range so a MF cost of around 20.

Put a limitation on the multipower of (rough eyeball estimate) -1/4 to -1/2 for "true form is the batson form", determining the value loosely by how frequently he will encounter variations on "dispel multiform" or similar effects which will force him to the batson form. if it will never happen or will happen too infrequently to matter, then its a -0.
I like this idea quite a bit. I'd suggest the following for figuring out the limitation the most expensive form pays for the Multiform:

If the true (base) form's points are equal to:

less than 1/4 of the most expensive form's points, the limitation is -3/4

1/4 to 1/2 of the most expensive form's points, the limitation is -1/2

1/2 to 3/4 of the most expensive form's points, the limitation is -1/4

more than 3/4 of the most expensive form's points, the limitation is -0

If it is to be expected that the character will be reverted to his base (weaker) form against his will fairly frequently, then it's worth an additional -1/4 limitation.

[tesuji]

my ball park was by thirds... the drop nees to ve severe because frankly, dispel/drain/supress multiform is fairly rare so you are probably only looking at "vs ALL SFX" type attacks which are also somewhat uncommon to say the least.

(its possible the guy has accidental chg to up the odds but that pays its own points.)

so...

true form is 1/3 or less the PFM form: -1/2
true form is 2/3 or less the PFm form: -1/4
true form is more than 2/3 the PFM form: -0

but thats a ball park... its also possible to just say less than half = -1/4 and more than half - -0 and give a -1/4 boost for very common sfx or well known as a shifter.

[Hugh Neilson]

Also you are allwrong about the most abuseive portion of this power...It is that it is now a STANDARD power that can be put in a MP

True, and a good point. However, most GM's, or at least most experienced GM's, would think twice about actually allowing it as a MP slot (I think the fAQ talks about this as well). However, it does work well as a spell in a fantasy game, where this sort of thing is more common. If your fantasy game uses a framework system for spells, it's a shame to force the "polymorph self" spell out.

But in a Supers game, I'd look pretty hard at a slot for Multiform in that 75 point Multipower, and "by the books" nothing really leads you to look sideways at it. That makes it easy to be overlkooked by a new polayer (whose character is now shot down by the GM) or a new GM.