Lousy Game or Picky Player?

[Koshka]

I'm part of a group that gets together for everyone's birthdays. (Or a day reasonably close to said birthday, depending on everyone's work schedules.) Last Saturday was one of those parties, and the "birthday boy" asked another member of the group to run a one-shot Champs game in the evening. After that game, I'm strongly considering calling in sick the next time anyone asks that person to GM, but I'd like some feedback from people who weren't at the table.

Our setup: it's a world he's run before, but it's been on hiatus for a couple years. Two of the people in the group played in that game before and still had their old characters, three of us (myself included) had no previous exposure to the world. He sent out an e-mail with character creation guidelines that basically consisted of "150+100+50 XP, clear stop sign or caution sign powers with me first, game is fun and relaxed and is not Dark Champions-ish ." (Italics mine, but a direct quote.) The game was set up so the three new characters would meet fighting the bad guys, and the two "veterans" would join in later.

Before we'd gotten through a single round of combat, I was having flashbacks to the Gilt Complex from AC 4. These villains had enough offense to darn near disembowel (literally)one of the other characters, but an average roll on a 6d6 normal attack would put them at the border of "critical condition" and "dead". Did I mention that everyone had been encouraged to take CAK or similar disads? ::scrolls up:: No, I'd forgotten that, sorry. We had.

OK, there were a lot of other problems with this game as well (the GM skipped the character who was chasing another villain at least twice, and one of the people with veteran characters alternated between asking how to run her powers and telling everyone else the "correct" way to run their characters). However, my main objection is to the misinformation we were given about the nature of the game. Had I known this was a world where only PCs have any sort of defenses, I would not have brought a martial artist to the game, or for that matter any combat-capable character except for one with nothing but NNDs and Entangles.

So, question for the group: Am I being an oversensitive idiot, or was that game screwed up? And if the latter, anyone have ideas on possible ways to salvage matters, or should I just skip any future games?

[Armitage]

Originally posted by Koshka
So, question for the group: Am I being an oversensitive idiot, or was that game screwed up? And if the latter, anyone have ideas on possible ways to salvage matters, or should I just skip any future games?

You weren't being oversensitive. The game's circumstances didn't match the information that you were given.
It reminds me of a campaign that I was in briefly.
GM: "Killing Attacks will be very rare. You can only buy them with special permission from me."
So I create a martial artist with virtually no Resistant Defenses. And virtually every street punk me met was carrying a gun.

I'd suggest politely pointing out such discrepancies when they occur.
As for the rest. It mainly sounds like the GM was seriously out of practice running a game. Unless he was always that bad.

[Tclynch]

Depends, if you like the people you're gaming with, I'd try to have a talk with the GM away from the others and get more of a feel for how he/she wants to run the game. Email info is fine, sometimes, for like one shots. For an ongoing game I like to know more.
Now, if you're still not happy with what he wants to do, maybe suggesting some changes would be ok. Last resort would be just to give up on it. Like I said, depends on how happy you are playing with the group.

[ShelleyCM]

Koshka,

I'd skip it next time. Not to be trite, but life is too short for games that you're not into! But it was a one-shot games, and it sounds like you'll have plenty of warning next time: just say "no, thanks." (Besides, since the GM kept forgetting another character, it sounds like he already had enough on his plate.)

I feel compelled to make a positive suggestion, too. Why don't you volunteer to run a game -- and set a good example?

-Shelley

[Koshka]

Originally posted by ShelleyCM
I feel compelled to make a positive suggestion, too. Why don't you volunteer to run a game -- and set a good example?


Of the six people at that table, GM and 5 players, four of them thought the game ran just fine. (That's part of the reason I asked for feedback.) It's possible they simply like that sort of game. I can try, though -- the other person who wasn't happy normally wants to game on his birthday, and I've told him I'd be willing to run if he wants.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Armitage
It reminds me of a campaign that I was in briefly.
GM: "Killing Attacks will be very rare. You can only buy them with special permission from me."
So I create a martial artist with virtually no Resistant Defenses. And virtually every street punk me met was carrying a gun.

Oh, Come on! Running superheroes with no resistant defenses against normal punks with guns and knives is part of the genre. Batman, Daredevil, and Spiderman have all dealt with this problem for years. Come on, what are the odds a goon with a switchblade is even going to touch Daredevil? In Champions, how often does a normal with a 3 OCV hit a martial artist with a 10 DCV? That's less than a 2% chance of hitting, never mind that the superhero is probably twice as fast. Why isn't said hero Blocking or doing some other type of defensive maneuvers? Any superhero should be able to take out a street gang of normals armed with guns and knives with nary a scratch.

In my four color campaign, virtually the only opponents with Killing Attacks are animals, soldiers, and street punks. All of these have OCVs of 3-4. Super-villain types with high OCVs generally use wierder attacks or Energy Blasts. We've have a "no resistant defenses" martial artist on our team for 12 years who has never been cut or hit with a Killing Attack. The only BODY he's ever taken was from a solid normal hit versus his 10 PD. Of course, his 33 DEX may have something to do with that...

[lemming]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
Oh, Come on! Running superheroes with no resistant defenses against normal punks with guns and knives is part of the genre. Batman, Daredevil, and Spiderman have all dealt with this problem for years. Come on, what are the odds a goon with a switchblade is even going to touch Daredevil? In Champions, how often does a normal with a 3 OCV hit a martial artist with a 10 DCV? That's less than a 2% chance of hitting, never mind that the superhero is probably twice as fast.

0.46% actually.

However, I've seen plenty of low resistance characters get killed by a villian or agent rolling a three and following up with maximum damage.

I will agree that it's genre, but in the comics you don't have the randomness of the dice.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by lemming
0.46% actually.

However, I've seen plenty of low resistance characters get killed by a villian or agent rolling a three and following up with maximum damage.

I will agree that it's genre, but in the comics you don't have the randomness of the dice.

Good point. Additionally, because HERO is a game instead of a comic book, players expect that the opposition is roughly similar because of that "game" aspect. So if you go into a game expecting it to be non-Dark and bad guys have strong offensive capability, then I can see expecting those same bad guys being able to take some damage before being in mortal danger - certainly not dying or crippled from a 6d6 EB.

Of course if most people were happy with the way the game went, it may be that however it occurred, the poster of this thread just didn't get something going into it that they did. It sounds like it's worth a friendly but candid conversation with the GM (like, "Are all your villains made of paper and armed with super-weapons?" - okay maybe not that).

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by lemming
0.46% actually.

However, I've seen plenty of low resistance characters get killed by a villian or agent rolling a three and following up with maximum damage.

I will agree that it's genre, but in the comics you don't have the randomness of the dice. I read the combat chart as requiring a roll of "4" or less on 3d6 for a 3 OCV to hit a 10 DCV. The percentage chance for a 4 or less to be rolled on 3d6 is 1.9%. Where do you get 0.46%? That would be a roll of "3" required.

As for normal agents killing a superhero with max damage rolls after a near impossible hit, no way, at least not in my game. Perhaps in a Dark Champions game, but not in a mainstream type or 4-color game. It's simply not genre for goons to kill the heroes. The dice are a randomizing tool, not my boss as a GM. I will never penalize a character for acting heroically. Killing a character has to have a purpose in a superhero game; it's simply not heroic to die from a lucky hit by some anonymous goon from VIPER or HYDRA. I'll override those suckers in a heartbeat if I think they are damaging the storyline. Thugs injuring the hero so he either continues to fight at a handicap or risks bleeding to death is OK. That's what heroism is all about.

My character has finished many a fight with just 6 or 7 STUN left and down several BODY. That's what heroes do. :)

[DoctorItron]

Originally posted by Koshka
SNIP
an average roll on a 6d6 normal attack would put them at the border of "critical condition" and "dead". Did I mention that everyone had been encouraged to take CAK or similar disads?
SNIP


Sorry about what you felt was a poorly run game. I don't have much to say that others haven't already said.

I don't understand how 6d6 normal (not killing) attacks could put supervillains at death's door. Even a zero point character gets 10 BODY and 2 PD/ED. A 6d6 attack averages 6 BODY, minus at least 2 for defense, for a net damage of 4 BODY. The villains wouldn't be "dead" until they take a total of 20 BODY damage.

If the villains are that fragile, use the "pull punch" maneuver, or use less dice in your attack. A 4d6 attack is probably enough to CON-stun villains in such a game.

Sounds like your GM really doesn't understand the superhero genre and the Hero system, or just doesn't care. If you ever decide to join the game again, make sure to take an NND attack. 400 point characters with no defenses! Sheesh!

[Doug McCrae]

The low defence, high offence villains sound fine if it was just one encounter. Perhaps a trick designed to sucker the PCs into killing someone. Maybe that was what the GM planned all along and why he required CAK? Not something I would do but acceptable nonetheless as a one shot trick.

If *all* the villains were low/high then something's wrong.

[Killer Shrike]

It sounds to me like he was 'Chump-dropping' them. Some people call this concept 'Mooks'. In other words, chumps/mooks/goons/whatever semantics you like go down with one good hit from a PC. This is usually predicated on the concept that the chumps are just roadblocks to the real opposition, such as a "boss" or one or more his 'lieutenants". It gives the players a chance to warm up and pull thier heads out of thier bums before facing something that actually matters. Of course, usually this just knocks them out in a Super hero genre, but maybe the verbage the GM used to express this was misleading, or maybe he's a closet sadist ;) .

Also sounds like the GM was rusty, and that your expectations were misaligned with his intentions.


My suggestion would be the same as Shelly's: instead of stomping off into the night, run a game yourself and be careful to "set a good example". Take the prep time to get it right. Dont do it as an "in-your-face" thing. Instead try something like "hey, playing the other night really got my creative juices going, and I want to run game!". Make it a positive rather than "that travesty you called a game irked me to the point that I feel compelled to show you scrubs how its really done!" ;)


YMMV, etc etc etc

[CrosshairCollie]

Armitage: Sounds like the GM should have said that KAs are rare for the PCs, to be specific. :)

Yeah ... lousy game. If you were the only 'overpowered' PC there, I could see it since there were no power level suggestions or rules given ('You've got more than 4d6 in attacks? Wow!'), it wasn't a matter of you having a different model of character construction. The GM just didn't set up the opposition appropriately. Rusty is one thing, but making villains with, from what I'm gathering, 1 Defenses and 5 Body? Who were you fighting, Hell's Grannies? ;)

[Trencher]

Even if the game was great and you are just picky, why not be picky?
Tell the Gm what you had a problem with and give him one more chance, if the problem continiues, drop the game.

[JohnTaber]

I agree with everyone else for the most part. I think my only add on comment is simple...

If you think you could have fun playing the game then stick with it. Ask the GM nicely if this is normal. If it is ask the GM if you can rewrite your PC to fit the mold of the game. Anyway...just my $0.02...

[Tech]

Originally posted by DoctorItron
I don't understand how 6d6 normal (not killing) attacks could put supervillains at death's door. Even a zero point character gets 10 BODY and 2 PD/ED. A 6d6 attack averages 6 BODY, minus at least 2 for defense, for a net damage of 4 BODY. The villains wouldn't be "dead" until they take a total of 20 BODY damage.

Kosha mentioned 'The Guilt Complex', which I believe was in an Adventurer's Club issue. If you saw the stats, you'd see how a 6d6 normal attack can injure or kill them. Not having the particular AC in front of me, it went something like this:

In general:
5 Str
30 Dex
5 Con
5 Body
1 PD
1 ED
20 dice attacks
etc.

Disad:
2x Body - Physical attacks
2x Body - Energy attacks
3d6 Stun/Body - Mental Attacks

Perhaps I've overstated it but doubt by much.

[CrosshairCollie]

Actually, you slightly UNDERstate it! The disadvantage in question wasn't a susceptibility, but a Physical Limitation that they took BODY from Ego Attacks (count the Normal Body, basically).

Personally, I felt this was an incredibly overbearing, heavy-handed way to go about it, but that's just me. I just went straight to public opinion and legal action. :D