Roman Mecha - your comments please [Archive] - HERO Games Discussion Boards

WhollyRandom

Dec 21st, '04, 09:45 AM

I've bought Hero Designer, which is worth it for calculation of points values alone, and I've been using it to design a few Roman mechs. The first, the Iaculator, looks like this:

Iaculator

Player:

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val**</td><td>Char***</td><td>Cost</td></tr><tr><td align="right">25**</td><td>STR</td><td>15</td></tr><tr><td align="right">15**</td><td>DEX</td><td>15</td></tr><tr><td align="right">20**</td><td>BODY</td><td>10</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>*</td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">3**</td><td>SPD</td><td>5</td></tr><td></td><td>*</td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">12"**</td><td>RUN</td><td>12</td></tr><tr><td align="right">2"**</td><td>SWIM</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">4"**</td><td>LEAP</td><td>4</td></tr></table>Characteristics Cost: 70

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost**</td><td>Power</td><td align="right">END</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">60**</td><td>Iaculum medium-range missile: Killing Attack - Ranged 6d6, Explosion (-1 DC/2"; +3/4), Nonselective Target (-1/4) (135 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Limited Arc Of Fire (180 degrees; -1/4), 4 clips of 6 Charges (-1/4)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">34**</td><td>Fodiator Prodigium side-arm: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2), 4 clips of 32 Charges (+1/2) (60 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">8**</td><td>Hasta MkIIIe Mech Spear: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6 (20 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), OIF (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Limited Arc Of Fire (180 degrees; -1/4)*</td><td valign="top" align="right">2</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">36**</td><td>Ferratus Medium Armour Plating: Armor (20 PD/10 ED) (45 Active Points); Real Armor (-1/4)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">8**</td><td>Transiliator jump-jets: Flight 5" (10 Active Points); Extra Time (Extra Segment, Only to Activate, -1/4)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">5**</td><td>Spirator back-up oxygen supply: Life Support (Self-Contained Breathing) (10 Active Points); Fuel Dependent (fuel is Common; must refuel Once per 6 Hours; -1)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">10**</td><td>Radio Perception/Transmission (Radio Group)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">5**</td><td>Videlicet Head-up Display: Multipower, 5-point reserve*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u**</td><td>1) Infrared Perception (Sight Group) (5 Active Points)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u**</td><td>2) Nightvision (5 Active Points)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">4**</td><td>Arms and Legs: Extra Limbs (4) (5 Active Points); Limited Manipulation (-1/4)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr></table>Powers Cost: 172

Total Character Cost: 242

Base Points: 250
Experience Required: 0
Total Experience Available: 0
Experience Unspent: 0

It's essentially intended as a missile boat, a medium mech with enough oomph to take out other similar-sized mechs or good quantities of infantry, but with limited shots. Once the missiles are gone, it can switch to a low-powered side-arm or to its spear for close range fighting.

The second mech is the Intermator. This is designed as an anti-infantry mech, with a machine gun and variable grenade launcher, which can double as a civilian police mech:

Interimator

Player:

<table cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td align="right">Val**</td><td>Char***</td><td>Cost</td></tr><tr><td align="right">25**</td><td>STR</td><td>15</td></tr><tr><td align="right">15**</td><td>DEX</td><td>15</td></tr><tr><td align="right">20**</td><td>BODY</td><td>10</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>*</td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">3**</td><td>SPD</td><td>5</td></tr><td></td><td>*</td><td></td></tr><tr><td align="right">12"**</td><td>RUN</td><td>12</td></tr><tr><td align="right">2"**</td><td>SWIM</td><td>0</td></tr><tr><td align="right">4"**</td><td>LEAP</td><td>4</td></tr></table>Characteristics Cost: 70

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right">Cost**</td><td>Power</td><td align="right">END</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">64**</td><td>Interimator anti-infantry autogun: Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), 16 clips of 64 Charges (+1) (112 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">38**</td><td>Librator multi-function grenade launcher: Multipower, 67-point reserve, (67 Active Points); all slots OIF (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">3u**</td><td>1) Inretator anti-infantry foam grenade: Entangle 5d6, 5 DEF (50 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)*</td><td valign="top" align="right">5</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">3u**</td><td>2) Fractus shrapnel grenade: Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6, Explosion (+1/2) (67 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Limited Range (-1/4), 12 Charges (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">2u**</td><td>3) Caecus flashbang grenade: Sight and Hearing Groups Flash 5d6 (30 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)*</td><td valign="top" align="right">3</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">36**</td><td>Ferratus Medium Armour Plating: Armor (20 PD/10 ED) (45 Active Points); Real Armor (-1/4)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">8**</td><td>Transiliator jump-jets: Flight 5" (10 Active Points); Extra Time (Extra Segment, Only to Activate, -1/4)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">5**</td><td>Spirator back-up oxygen supply: Life Support (Self-Contained Breathing) (10 Active Points); Fuel Dependent (fuel is Common; must refuel Once per 6 Hours; -1)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">10**</td><td>Radio Perception/Transmission (Radio Group)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">5**</td><td>Videlicet Head-up Display: Multipower, 5-point reserve*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u**</td><td>1) Infrared Perception (Sight Group) (5 Active Points)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u**</td><td>2) Nightvision (5 Active Points)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">4**</td><td>Arms and Legs: Extra Limbs (4) (5 Active Points); Limited Manipulation (-1/4)*</td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr></table>Powers Cost: 180

Total Character Cost: 250

Base Points: 250
Experience Required: 0
Total Experience Available: 0
Experience Unspent: 0

However, as mentioned in my Aliens (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25427) thread, I'm new to this 'Hero' stuff and still very much feeling my way around the character creation system, so I'm looking for comments on obvious flaws - useless weapons, missing systems, wrong speeds and so on.

I've left both mechs at SIZ 0 for now, since I'm not quite sure what to do in that respect - they're only intended to be about 10 feet tall, would that warrant SIZ 1?

Ta.

NuSoardGraphite

Dec 21st, '04, 12:13 PM

around 10 feet tall is Size 2. This gives:

+10STR
+2 Body
-1KB
+1Per

Thats a lot of Body and Armor for a Size 2 mecha though. Makes it about as tough as an M1 Abrams, but if thats what you are going for, then that should be just about right.

A question:

These things can swim?????

WhollyRandom

Dec 21st, '04, 02:41 PM

around 10 feet tall is Size 2. This gives:

+10STR
+2 Body
-1KB
+1Per

Thats a lot of Body and Armor for a Size 2 mecha though. Makes it about as tough as an M1 Abrams, but if thats what you are going for, then that should be just about right.

A question:

These things can swim?????

Um, no. They really can't swim. They could probably walk along the bottoms of lakes and rivers if the footing was solid enough, but that's it. I'd best reduce Swim to 0.

These particular mechs should be a less tough than an Abrams - the idea is that they're fielded in formation and carry the day via mobility and numbers. I'll add the size and then drop their STR and body back - I'm very keen to keep them under 250 points if at all possible. These are intended to be second-line units, the kind of thing that a failing or distracted empire might field on a pacified world without any unique importance ... just to give players a chance. I also intend to detail some tougher mechs later; the sort of thing that even a failing or distracted empire might send to a world that had suddenly become a hotspot ...

NuSoardGraphite

Dec 21st, '04, 04:27 PM

Okay. Question about the Spear writeup in the first Mecha posted;

Is this actually a Spear, or is it simply a staff?

If its a Spear, it should be a Killing Attack. If it can be used as either a spear or a staff, it should be a multipower with a Killing attack slot and a Hand attack slot.

For the damage of Mecha melee weapons, remember this. The base damage of a mecha sized Melee weapon should be increased by +1DC per level of Size the mecha has.
Since your mecha is Size class 2, the basic spear damage (medium spear as listed in FREd page 329) of 1 1/2D6K should be increased to 2D6+1K (which increases the maximum damage from 3D6+1K to 4 1/2D6K). Note: Since this can barely penetrate the Mechas own Defenses, might want to consider slapping some AP on the power and dropping the damage by -1DC.
For the Reach of the weapon, the Medium Spear has a reach bonus of +1". Which gives it a total reach of 2". The "Reach" of a mecha weapon doubles for every 3 levels of Size (every X2 Height gives X2 reach) but since the Iaculator is only +2 Size, the spear only gains a +1" reach bonus for a total reach of 3".
For the weapons STR Min, simply add +5 to the STR Min for every +1 Size increase the weapon is built for. (which gives the Iaculator's spear a STR Min of 21)

Thats how I do it. Its my version of "Size scaling" for Hero...

CraterMaker

Dec 21st, '04, 04:42 PM

Good job on the Mecha.. I just have one question: On your Iaculator class Mech, your missile system is written like so

Iaculum medium-range missile: Killing Attack - Ranged 6d6, Explosion (-1 DC/2"; +3/4), Nonselective Target (-1/4) (135 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Limited Arc Of Fire (180 degrees; -1/4), 4 clips of 6 Charges (-1/4)*

You bought the limitation Nonselective on an Explosive attack.. Now, normally nonselective forces a to hit roll on every enemy within area of effect, and I use it myself to simulate a swarm of guided missiles.. I've never seen it applied to an explosive atack, though. Could you describe how the missile looks/operates in use? thanks..

-CraterMaker

Major Tom

Dec 21st, '04, 08:32 PM

In R. Talsorian's Mekton Zeta: Mecha Manual 1 book, there's a section
where they describe two mecha from an alternate universe where Rome never
fell, and that eventually moved out into space to colonize the rest of the
Solar System. The first of these "Gladiator Machines" was a centauroid design
called, naturally enough, the Centaurus. It has four legs instead of the
standard two, and its main weapon is a spear that can launch Greek Fire-
saturated projectiles at an enemy GM.

The second GM is a humanoid model called the Valus, which resembles
a Roman soldier with sword and shield. The "sword" is actually a high-powered
plasma cutting torch (Ooooh...A Bronze Age beam saber. Nasty...). According
to the text, Gladiator Machines cost more than the Gundam-style mecha
common to most Mekton campaigns, due to the fact, that, because they
are constructed with what is essentially Bronze Age technology, they are twice
as heavy as more advanced mechas of the same size.

Major Tom :bmk:

WhollyRandom

Dec 22nd, '04, 02:27 AM

Good job on the Mecha.. I just have one question: On your Iaculator class Mech, your missile system is written like so

Iaculum medium-range missile: Killing Attack - Ranged 6d6, Explosion (-1 DC/2"; +3/4), Nonselective Target (-1/4) (135 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Limited Arc Of Fire (180 degrees; -1/4), 4 clips of 6 Charges (-1/4)*

You bought the limitation Nonselective on an Explosive attack.. Now, normally nonselective forces a to hit roll on every enemy within area of effect, and I use it myself to simulate a swarm of guided missiles.. I've never seen it applied to an explosive atack, though. Could you describe how the missile looks/operates in use? thanks..

-CraterMaker

Actually, that's just me misapplying a limitation. For some reason, I had it in mind that nonselective meant that the explosion hit everything in its area of effect.

Darn, that's going to put the cost back up.

So, what would explosion + nonselective look like ... a swarm of guided missiles, each with its own small explosion, adding up to patchy coverage of a larger area?

WhollyRandom

Dec 22nd, '04, 02:30 AM

Okay. Question about the Spear writeup in the first Mecha posted;

Is this actually a Spear, or is it simply a staff?

If its a Spear, it should be a Killing Attack. If it can be used as either a spear or a staff, it should be a multipower with a Killing attack slot and a Hand attack slot.

For the damage of Mecha melee weapons, remember this. The base damage of a mecha sized Melee weapon should be increased by +1DC per level of Size the mecha has.
Since your mecha is Size class 2, the basic spear damage (medium spear as listed in FREd page 329) of 1 1/2D6K should be increased to 2D6+1K (which increases the maximum damage from 3D6+1K to 4 1/2D6K). Note: Since this can barely penetrate the Mechas own Defenses, might want to consider slapping some AP on the power and dropping the damage by -1DC.
For the Reach of the weapon, the Medium Spear has a reach bonus of +1". Which gives it a total reach of 2". The "Reach" of a mecha weapon doubles for every 3 levels of Size (every X2 Height gives X2 reach) but since the Iaculator is only +2 Size, the spear only gains a +1" reach bonus for a total reach of 3".
For the weapons STR Min, simply add +5 to the STR Min for every +1 Size increase the weapon is built for. (which gives the Iaculator's spear a STR Min of 21)

Thats how I do it. Its my version of "Size scaling" for Hero...

Well, the first part of that is an oversight on my part; this should indeed be a Hand-to-Hand Killing Attack. The weapon is more or less fixed into the mech's hand, so I'm not concerned about it doubling as a staff, spear will be sufficient. I'll run the numbers on your (very helpful) suggestions this evening when I'm back at home and see whether the mech can still afford the spear :D

Major Tom

Dec 29th, '04, 12:12 PM

Just found out that I need to amend my previous post somewhat with regards
to the technology used to construct the Roman mecha in the Mekton Z : Mecha
Manual 1.
In my original post, I had said that the mechas were built with what was, in
essence, Bronze Age technology. In the process of doing some much-needed
roomcleaning, I managed to find my copy of the aforementioned book, and, to
my embarassment, found that the tech used was not Bronze Age level,
but that of the 19th Century.

Sorry about this bit of misinformation.

Major Tom :hex:

Michael Hopcroft

Jan 7th, '05, 09:49 PM

This is a very interesting thread to read. Yoru "doctrinal" assumptions on how mecha are used is quite interesting, in that it makes mecha a powerful support weapon but not one that takes the place of infantry on the ground.

However, since the mecha fight in formation, do the infantry still ifhgt in formation as well? Formation fighting tends to break down as technology advances -- there was a point in about the 187\60s in our world when formations began to be abandoned in favor of trench warfare. thsi was because the technolgoy of ranged weapons had gotten so good that standing out in the open, in formation, was a very good way to accomplish very little except get killed. And this was before the invention of things like machine-guns, which turned standing out in the open firing your rifle at the enemy into near-certain suicide against a well-equipped foe. (instead, you found what cover you could, fired from behind that cover, and tried to reach the gunner before he tore you to pieces).

Roiman infantry fighting in formation assumes that most of Rome's enemy would not have devloped machine-guns or simiar technology, or have very limited access to them. If firearms are prevalent, or some variation of firearms, eventually the infantry would carry them in place of the pilum that classical Roman infantry used as their main ranged weapons. That doesn;lt mean the leigonaire won't still have his sword for close combat.

I could say the high-tech battlefield would be a more chaotic place, except for the obvious fact that all battleifleds are chaotic and the side that perseveres most effectively in the chaos of battle is the side that wins.

A few other thing to think about for your roman mecha world is what other battlefield technolgoeis exist. Air power, for example, is another force that changes the battlefield, even if it only exists in the form of a few spotter planes to tell you where the enemy is.

what it sounds like you want, though, is a battlefield where formation effects are preserved while still enabling the use of higher-technolgoy weapons. Which leads to a very bloody battlefield.

Major Tom

Jan 8th, '05, 12:01 PM

This is beginning to sound like Fvlminata meets BattleTech.

Major Tom :bmk:

WhollyRandom

Jan 8th, '05, 12:17 PM

This is a very interesting thread to read. Yoru "doctrinal" assumptions on how mecha are used is quite interesting, in that it makes mecha a powerful support weapon but not one that takes the place of infantry on the ground.

That was certainly part of the idea; essentially, I saw the colonial Roman army as having two roles. First comes the initial pacification of typically lower-tech worlds, using the likes of the second-line mecha set out above. Secondly, the Romans then hold the worlds that they have pacified and the same second-line mecha switch over to a police function. First-line mecha are still manufactured almost exclusively on Roma Prima, since this largely avoids the nightmare scenario of a subject world rebelling and gaining access to factories capable of turning out prodigia that could be used to attack Roma Prima itself.

However, since the mecha fight in formation, do the infantry still ifhgt in formation as well? Formation fighting tends to break down as technology advances -- there was a point in about the 187\60s in our world when formations began to be abandoned in favor of trench warfare. thsi was because the technolgoy of ranged weapons had gotten so good that standing out in the open, in formation, was a very good way to accomplish very little except get killed. And this was before the invention of things like machine-guns, which turned standing out in the open firing your rifle at the enemy into near-certain suicide against a well-equipped foe. (instead, you found what cover you could, fired from behind that cover, and tried to reach the gunner before he tore you to pieces).

Roiman infantry fighting in formation assumes that most of Rome's enemy would not have devloped machine-guns or simiar technology, or have very limited access to them. If firearms are prevalent, or some variation of firearms, eventually the infantry would carry them in place of the pilum that classical Roman infantry used as their main ranged weapons. That doesn;lt mean the leigonaire won't still have his sword for close combat.

My idea was that prodigia are attached to units of power-armoured troops. The Romans still fight in a highly disciplined fashion - commando tactics would be unthinkable for standard troops, though elite, specialist or foreign-recruited troops would practice them. The Romans mostly fight against less well-equipped, lower-tech troops on more primitive worlds, so the combination of heavy armour, relatively good mobility and better-than-man-portable weapons offered by the standard legionary power armour makes a more rigid fighting style reasonably practical.

The Iceni rebels would have access only to second-rate power armour and civilian prodigia (construction models, perhaps one or two stripped-down police models), at least initially; they would have to use hit-and-run tactics to fight the better-equipped and better-organised Roman troops, much as in Boudicca's initial rebellion.

What happens to standard Roman troops who meet high-tech, mobile opposing forces is another matter and beyond the scope of the campaign I had in mind, though it might feature in the background; essentially, they wouldn't cope terribly well, though they do have truly vast resources. Perhaps an air of British troops in World War I and early World War II, discovering what happens when the enemy has given considerably more thought to developing new tactical configurations than you have?

However

I could say the high-tech battlefield would be a more chaotic place, except for the obvious fact that all battleifleds are chaotic and the side that perseveres most effectively in the chaos of battle is the side that wins.

A few other thing to think about for your roman mecha world is what other battlefield technolgoeis exist. Air power, for example, is another force that changes the battlefield, even if it only exists in the form of a few spotter planes to tell you where the enemy is.

The mechs outlined above have jump-jets enabling them to fly at a low-ish speed for around six hours. This means that the Romans have flight technology; I don't see it as used widely in air-to-air combat, it's there to enable rapid troop movement and to provide a tactical advantage in terms of battlefield positioning. They would also have large airships for air-dropping troops but, for the most part, don't fight against enemies capable of fielding significant air power.

what it sounds like you want, though, is a battlefield where formation effects are preserved while still enabling the use of higher-technolgoy weapons. Which leads to a very bloody battlefield.

Bloody for the enemy, less so for the Romans ... until they come up against someone with equivalent tech and more 'modern' (to our thinking) tactics :D