Combat initiative and the Speed Chart

[Fitz]

I've never been terribly fond of the Speed Chart and the mechanical effect it has on combat. Its only advantage, to my mind, is that it guarantees that a combatant with SPD 4 acts exactly twice as often as one with SPD 2. The big problem with it is that it encourages the sort of metagaming mindset which allows players to pre-plan their combats, to the grave detriment of the feeling of fast-moving chaotic excitement which combat should have.

I've tried a couple of ways to get around this, to make combat less rigidly structured without doing away with the SPD system altogether.

The first variation: Random Segment Determination , in which a d12 is rolled and those characters with SPD appropriate to act on that segment, or those holding an action, can act. This system was what I'd describe as a miserable failure -- it slowed everything down rtaher than speeding it up, and keeping track of passing time was a real pain in the bum.

Second Variation: Random Phase Determination , in which a die is rolled each Phase of combat. Everyone with a SPD equal to or greater than the number shown, or those holding an action, get to act. When the die shows a 1, everyone acts, the Turn ends and they get their post-12 recoveries. This system was a qualified success, since it did speed things up and it was easy to tell who could and could not act in any given phase. Where it fell down was in the ratio of actions between combatants; because combats seldom go on for any great length of time (that is, the number of individual Phases is small), it's easy for low-SPD or even moderate-SPD characters to be left out entirely simply because of a run of high Phase-Determination Rolls. Over time, of course, the ratio of actions will inevitable stabilize, but who remembers how many times they got to clobber something in a session three weeks ago?

Third Variation: Randomised SPD Bonus/Penalty : This is the system we're currently trialling. At the beginning of combat, everyone throws 1d6. A result of 1 means that character has -1 SPD (for that combat only), a 6 grants +1 SPD, and any other result indicates no change. Otherwise, the Speed Chart is used as per the published rules. This system has the virtue of simplicity, the down-side being that players have to keep track of which Phases they act on for 3 different SPDs -- their normal SPD, and one either side. We haven't play=tested this system for long enough to show whether it's practical or not, but I have an uneasy feeling lurking down deep that it won't really serve the purpose terribly well.

Does anyone have any ideas any other kind of combat initiative system which fulfills the following criteria?

1) It must be very, very simple.
2) It must grant screen time appropriate to the character's SPD
3) It must be variable enough to provide a degree of uncertainty about exactly who gets to act exactly when
4) It must not change the system to the extent of removing or distorting the SPD mechanism completely
5) It must be simple. I mean it.

[Yog Sothoth]

Not a big idea but here it goes.

Instead of starting combat on segment 12 as per the rules, roll a D12, and the results indicates in which segment the combat starts. It gives a small element of uncertainty, and is simple enough I think :)

[Lord Liaden]

Although I personally love the Speed Chart because it allows the GM to keep track of who does what when, I've been part of groups who hated its predictability. One such group experimented with a suggestion from Steve Perrin in his "GM's Discretion" column from Adventurers Club #21. The results were pretty satisfactory.

It's essentially a variation on your Second Variation: each player rolls a D12 at the start of a Phase, and if he rolls his SPD or less he gets to act that Phase. Having each player roll allows for an adjustment to compensate for the "player left out due to streak of bad rolls" problem that you experienced; each player who misses a roll adds 1 to his subsequent rolls, cumulatively, until he succeeds, when the roll resets to his raw SPD again.

Another of Steve Perrin's suggestions (which we never got around to trying) was to ignore Post-Segment 12 - anyone who rolls a 12 gets to take a Recovery and perform any other Post-12 actions.

Hope that's useful.:)

[DarkGreen]

Neat thread. I hope a good answer come's up!

Yog's idea is pretty cool and simple. It doesn't require the players to do anything.

-DG

[Fitz]

Hmmmm...... I think I like Lord Liarden's suggestion. (OK, Steve Perrin's suggestion). In fact, I think I'll try it. At least having the players roll their own dice might get them off my back about my stupendously high rolls all the time, and the cumulative +1 should help guarantee everybody some part in the action. Thanks :)

[Nelijal]

I like the Lord Liarden/Steve Perrin idea as well. And if you want to be a HERO purist, roll a d6 and take the segments in pairs. That would also be slightly faster, I believe.

[Keneton]

I'm not trying to change your mind on the speed thing, but I don't really understand your whole metagaming argument. This isn't "magic the gathering" and speed determines nothing but how many phases you have. With the ability to hold, Speed adds quite a bit of exciting tactics to a game.

I love if players have to worry about setting for a haymaker on the 6th because Joe Speedy might be a 7 speed, or how Psiren, my mentalist will often abort her 3rd against a 6 speed villain in the 2nd to kill their speed advantage.

The other methods, although fun sounding, kill tactics. Why are tactics bad? This sounds a lot like the discussion I just had on "To hex or Not" on these same boards.

I connot see how the Speed Chart combined with the ability to holds ever leads to wht you called a pre planned combat. In fact I feel it leads to the exact opposite.

Maybe you can explain your thoughts on why the Speed Chart Leads to Metagaming. I don't think you are using the term correctly.:confused:

[Blackout]

I think what you're calling predictability is actually a neat way to demonstrate a character's grasp of tactics and their ability to "size up" their opponents.

Of course, you can always throw your players a curve, and have some creatures they encounter start of by holding an action and acting on a different phase than they "should".

If you want to abandon the speed chart, though, one thing that worked for us was to take cards numbered 1 through 12, shuffle them, and flip one at a time. Next turn, do the same thing. Much quicker than rolling dice.

[Lord Liaden]

Not to sound defensive, but it's "Lord Liaden", not "Liarden". I never got too upset with people calling me "Lord Laiden", but the connotations of this one are rather less flattering.;)

And I'm glad you like the idea, Fitz.:)

[Old Man]

The next time I GM a FH campaign, I'm just going to dispense with the speed stat altogether. A difference of 1 point of SPD is just a ridiculously huge advantage down in the 2-4 range. For example, I'm SPD 4 and you're SPD 3. I am effectively +3 DCV because I'm going to spend your three phases dodging. What do you do?

Conversely I never had a problem with the non-random dex order. Rolling for initiative just sucked in every game I've played that had it. FH has always had the block, and now there's the two dex-pushing maneuvers too. If anything I'd use a small die modifier to dex, if the players demanded some initiative randomness--probably a +1d6 -1d6 roll, giving a range of +/- 5 with a curve.

[Nelijal]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Not to sound defensive, but it's "Lord Liaden", not "Liarden". I never got too upset with people calling me "Lord Laiden", but the connotations of this one are rather less flattering.;)

And I'm glad you like the idea, Fitz.:) My apologies. I double-checked the previous posts to make sure I was spelling it correctly, but I copied the previous misspelling. :rolleyes:

[KawangaKid]

On the other hand, a couple of players new to the HERO system (narrative-system folks familiar with White Wolf & L5R) LOVED the HERO speed table.

The said it REALLY drives home the effect of someone who moves faster than you by forcing you. You're forced to take defensive actions, or to wait helplessly and hope that you're not the one attacked...

The chaos of combat can still be reflected by requiring perception rolls to keep track of folks that fall out of your field of view. Otherwise, you suffer OCV / DCV penalties against them.

Alternately, you could just use the SPD stat as the number of actions per turn, and go in order of DEX, one action per.

[Markdoc]

I agree totally with Fitz. I've also experimented with a variety of systems from "by the book speed chart" to "no SPD stat."

The metagaming argument is solid - the problem is not that "player X is worried about throwing a haymaker, and hopes their opponent doesn't go on the next phase".

It's player X throwing a haymaker KNOWING their opponent can't retaliate in time.

It's players who go "I'll delay a phase and then jump into their middle and sweep with all my levels on OCV, 'cos I get to go the phase after that, so that if I miss any of them I can abort to block or dodge and shift my levels even if they have higher DEX than I do, and then the phase after that, I'll change to..."

That's not tactics, that's long range strategy and it has no place in my FH game world B-(

Some players like this wargamey aspect to things, and I'll hang my head in shame and admit that I have manipulated the SPD chart with the best (worst) of them - so if that winds your dial, fine. For 4 colour comics, it's even appropriate. For Fantasy Hero where most people fall into the 2-4 SPD range, it can get ugly and to me (and my players) it detracts from the all-important "fantasy ambiance".

Combat *should* be messy and chaotic (at least that's my experience), but randomising the SPD chart does not remove the element of tactics, it merely reduces the element of certainty - in effect, my players WAIT for those fleeting moments when they can sweep or haymaker, in the hope that they can get away with it unscathed. They don't plan them weeks in advance, knowing that they will occur.

Personally I couldn't go back to SPD chart now and the threat of doing so effectively silenced the players who whined about me reolling a string of 1 and 2's so the lowlifes all got a chance to act every phase.

The other suggestions, while worthy (like try getting people to hold actions to go outside their normal phases) should be part of every GM's trick book - but they a) only address part of the problem and b) load even more work on the GM - no fun when the players are trying to beat off the attacks of 25 sprites (SPD4) riding giant wasps (SPD2) and the GM is trying to keep track of the lot.

Getting players to make PER rolls is also a good idea (I use when someone is trying to circle around to take a target by surprise, but in general, Hero system combat needs extra rolls like it needs furry dice.

Last of all, the "No SPD" option was tried by a fellow GM in a game I played in. The result was dreadful. Dull, limited combat (plus it messes with the balance around END and charges something 'orrible, and alters the balance of characteristics - DEX becomes even more important, since it is the sole determinant of when you act) and the only real benefit was that all the people involved swore a solemn oath never to do it again.

Unfortunately, I don't have a pefect answer. I use the random phase method (Fitz's #2) as it is the easiest and least bad of the options, but that's only 'cos I can't come up with anything better.

cheers, Mark

[mudpyr8]

We actually do a couple of things that may help, although we use the stock speed chart. Here goes:

1. No post-segment 12 recovery. Ever. If you want to recover, you take a Recovery and put yourself at a disadvantage. This forces players to move to the safety of cover so they can get back END/Stun.

2. No END for a basic action. Strike, Move, etc. cost no END. Extraordinary actions cost END, such as Sweeps (pay END for the additional attacks), and aborts (1 + ENC level in END). The aborts rule helps encourage the held action, and captures the "oh my god I've gotta get outta here" feel. The no END for basic actions simplifies bookkeeping, forcing you to track END only for extraordinary things (like pushing). This of course also balances the lack of a free recovery in #1.

3. Dive for Cover. I posted a rules question on the old boards and got an answer from Steve I didn't expect, but it works awesome. You can DfC vs. melee attacks. This especially fun against Haymakers which land at the end of the next segment, so your target can always abort. Last session I had an angry dwarf chasing his foe across the room with haymakers as the foe kept aborting to DfC. They were the same speed. This is also great for Mages or other physically weak characters (DEX-1 gets you out of harms way), and allows someone to step in to keep the baddies busy. DfC has the drawback that you are prone (1/2 DCV) until your next action, but you do get totally out of the way. They don't even get an attack roll and the DEX roll is not opposed.

4. No hit locations for thugs (x3 STUNx always), unless they make a called shot. This really helps move things along when battling a mass of gobbos or such.

We've played with these mods in 2 campaigns, one was a cyber-arcane-horror game and the current fantasy game. Hero combat moves very quickly. I recommend them highly, especially the END for aborts thing as it really encourages the held actions, which avoids the stock rigidness of the SPD chart.

Compared to other systems where either multiple attacks are too difficult to handle mechanically (RoleMaster) or too deadly (GURPS) or too disjointed (D&D... my turn, I use Improved Trip and follow up with 4 attacks), it allows for fighters with multiple attacks spread evenly throughout the turn.

Once the p-s 12 recovery is gone, we really ignore the "end of turn" scenario, and pretty much just play a string of segments.

If you wanted to mix up your combat starting point, of the combatants who are not surprised have them make DEX rolls. The best roll chooses which phase to begin the combat in. I haven't tried this, but it might be interesting.

[Keneton]

If the game is too hard for you play D&D!

So tired of this stinks because of tactics or this stinks because you know you can get away with it. Well someone messed up if you get to plan sweeps, so guess what "too bad for the baddies!"

No post 12, when do you adjust for Regeneration, Recovery from Drains, or even when a person is barely out. In your sytem they just lie there and look dumb on the ground. That is not heroic.

No END? Its bad enough no Speed. I say if you can't handle the sytem play Toon or Amber or some other schmuk sytem that doesn't require thinking.

All of the answers given to this supposed problem only detract from the game. The problem does not go away with Random phases at all. If I have High Dex and hold until late in a phase and sweep you, under the random phase sytem I am likely to be out of my sweep and get to go again defensiveliy before you even get a chance to hit back. You've not solved anything, infact you've doubled your problems. Sure I may not get away with it, but hey that stinks too.

Chatrang (Ancient Indian version of Chess) started out wih dice determining what piece you had to move. Randomness over Strategy. You think this is bad?! I prefer hinking over chaos. Heroes rise above the chaos and make combat their own. They triumph over odds. The fight smarter than the orc hoardes that they face. Sure reduce them to nothing and feel superior! This cofee house intellectualism leads to a real boring non-heroic game.

I'm 34 and have been in gaming and game design for 22 years. Innovation and discussions like this are good. I am not flaming anyone and hope no one gets offended by my post. I believe the gaming segemt to be a very bright and responsive group. All I ask of you is before proposing a solution, look at the new problems it creates. Ask yourself, "Will the characters still be heroic under my system?"

As for the argumanet about the differance between a 2 and 3 speed beng so great-Phooey! Only if there is a sizeable differance in where the other 10 points went, particularly with CV. A difference of 1 is generally not too devestating when it comes to speed. Real advantages are in 2 Speed difference.

2-4
3-5
6-8

The 6 to 8 Speed differance is extremly bad as an 8 Speed goes 2,3 5,6 to the 6 Speed 2,4,6. The Extra early turn phase is back breaking and generally decides a fight. The 6-7 difference is minimanl early turnas teh extra phase is negated by a Phase 6 abort.

Well glad I got that out!!
:D

[Xiawarr]

Fitz,
I actually posted a solution on the old boards, but caught some flack from those that love the speed chart. :(

I have played the original Deadlands system (not the D20 version), in which a regular deck of cards was used to determine actions. I adapted that for my Hero games and it has run quite well.

Deal out cards based on the SPD characteristic to each player and NPC. In cases of multiple people pulling the same card with a different suit, first check DEX to determine who goes first. Otherwise, use the Deadland system (e.g. Spades, Hearts, Diamonds, Clubs in order).

I found that it worked very well. Especially when you are gaming with large groups of players. It adds just the right amount of randomness, without limiting those who have paid for higher SPD values.

I hope you find it useful.

[DarkGreen]

Xiawarr- I am not familiar with the deadlands system. Once you deal cards is it just high card first? Sounds like a mess with 4 players.

Everyone - Another way to mitigate what you may see as "metagaming" is that you can institute a house rule that if someone wants to hold their phase to another segment then they need a tactics roll. The tactics roll is made at the end of their actual phase going into the next segment and if they fail it then they're only holding a half action. That should at least require that only the characters who are "tactical experts" can do such things, and occasionally it will backfire even for them.

-DG

[EternityShard]

Originally posted by DarkGreen
I am not familiar with the deadlands system. Once you deal cards is it just high card first? Sounds like a mess with 4 players.


THree months ago, I'd have rated Deadlands as the best system out there... then I discovered Hero.

Regardless, the way deadlands works is everyone rolls a Quickness stat, and gets a certain number of actions based on the result. The Marshal (GM) then deals out to each player the appropriate number of cards. Then the GM counts down from Ace to Two. Jokers are used. A Red Joker can go at any time during the round, without needing rolls to interrupt another character's action, or first, if the player so chooses. The black joker is tossed back in the pile along with that player's highest other card.

If two players have the same rank card, Suit determines the tie-breaker (Spades, hearts, diamonds, club). The Good Guys have one deck of cards, and the bad guys have another deck. The only difference is that the bad-guys deck's jokers' effects are reversed.

The best thing about the Deadlands system is how much it feels western. Obviously the use of Decks of cards and poker chips adds to that.

Anyways, to convert this to Hero, I'd eliminate any sort of roll to determine number of actions, and just use straight speed stats for the number of cards you get.

[mudpyr8]

Step off Keneton. You make a lot of presumptions in your rebuttal of my suggestions. So, in the interest of understanding, let me explain:)

1. I never said to get rid of SPD. SPD still exists and is still used.

2. Post-Segment 12. Please, make a logical extension. Regens, drains, etc. all work as normal. In that sense the ps12 still exists, you just get no recovery.

3a. I never said get rid of END, just don't use it for basic actions. This came out of a discussion based on guns in combat. If I half-move and fire my gun I will spend (as a normal) most likely 1 END for movement. If I have a SPD of 4, and a REC of 4 (average), the END for the turn is a wash. So, why track it? It's wasted bookkeeping that slows the game down. Yet at the same time I don't want to lose the fact that you are spending END, therefore it makes sense to have the REC and END cancel each other out.

3b. Now, STUN. Here I was actually going for an action movie feel. With the elimnation of the ps12 REC, you can now run out of STUN much more quickly unless you take REC during combat.

This system ends up being very heroic, fast, and fun. I too have been gaming a while, and am a long time Hero gamer. I am very familiar with the system, and I know this is a fun way to play the game. After 2 campaigns, my players would agree.

The tag line on the rulebook is "The Gamer's Toolkit", not "The Gamer's Bible". Hero is a framework meant to be extended to create the atmosphere you want to acheive, not to accept the rules as canon and TOTW (The One True Way).

I would sling your condemnation right back at you and say that if you can't deal with the idea of rules extensions and modifications, that you take FRED, crawl into a hole, and ignore all other game mechanics as inferior.

The rest of us would like to continue our discussion of the merits and options of initiative/speed systems, and what works for us.

Thanks for your support. :D

[mudpyr8]

I think the Deadlands initiative system would map very well to Hero. Using SPD to determine your cards, essentially you have the same thing as the SPD chart, just that the sequence is all jumbled.

NICE.

I haven't experienced much of the metagaming aspects of the SPD chart so it has never really upset me.

Fundamentally, any random system you introduce ultimately normalizes on the speed chart (for the most part), so why bother. Unless you introduce a system which combines the randomness with sequencing as well as tracking (i.e. cards), it might just be more effort than it is worth.

I don't see held actions as that much of a problem. Sure you can delay, but unless you are going to defend, you've given up the ability to do full phase actions plus you have to win a contest of DEX. If you want to introduce tactics, I would suggest you use that instead of DEX, and make tactics an everyman skill. That way fighters will have it, most will not, and many of your rolls will be 11- v. 8-. But if you are going to do THAT, why not make a talent called "Master Warrior" that lets you win all such contests unless the other person is a Master as well. Does Lightning Reflexes add to DEX rolls for purposes of this? Perhaps you might allow it.

[Keneton]

You said no recovery, now you've clarified. I'm cool given that.

You think you should spend end one way, but not another and this saves time how?

Did you read the part that this wasn't a flame before you told me to step off or are you just offended that you had to clarify?

I never said Hero was the only way, Check other posts, and read my writing including DH#3. I am very open to suggestions. Before you clarified, yours did not work.

I didn't attack you, I attacked an idea. How do people in your syrtem recover when at -2 Stun for example. Without a post 12 when do they recover? With no post 12 how about at -11. Is there a distinction under your sytem of -11 or -1 for example. Eliminating post 12 elimintates this distiction, unless you came up with another sytem for this as well.

Can you see that with all of these exceptions you have created something for nothing. The problem is not as bad as the solution.

Maybe you have a great idea. I've not heard all of it yet. I can only critique what you type. Before you Flame, you should explain.

Imagine you are in my shoes. How would I know if you had all of this worked out. I still don't think you do. Answer the above questions without malice and we can still discuss this.

Regarding Speed, I never said you in particular voiced ridding Speed, I was speaking in general to the thread. Sorry if you thought this was directed at you. I should have been more clear.

I play other games as well as Hero, but right now of published sytems I do feel Hero is the best. I dont begrudge people making house rules (I have a 20+ page house rules document), but I do wonder why change something semi complicated and make it even more complicated.

Roll two dice, if you pass "Go" collect 2 experiance points and a post 12 recovery! Really re-read this thread and see what you see. Eliminate speed, or replace it with die rolls or random draws of cards. This makes statistics probabilities. It turns Chess Into Backgammon.

I for one like thinking and I am not condemming people I am condemming IDEAS!

All I ask of the reader is to say, Hey I bet Bob is a nice guy. I don't agree with him, but I'm sure we'd get along. And that is fine with me.
:D

[mudpyr8]

We're all cool and the gang then.

I was more reacting to the following quote:

If the game is too hard for you play D&D!

So tired of this stinks because of tactics or this stinks because you know you can get away with it. Well someone messed up if you get to plan sweeps, so guess what "too bad for the baddies!"

and

No END? Its bad enough no Speed. I say if you can't handle the sytem play Toon or Amber or some other schmuk sytem that doesn't require thinking.

Intentional flame or no, those quotes are pretty inflamatory, even when peppered with "Don't take offense". That just made you sound patronizing. More than a personal issue, I was also stepping up to say, "Hey, all of these ideas are valid, and belittleing people telling them to go play Toon, isn't very appropriate." Either participate in the conversation, don't participate, offer constructive criticisms, I don't care. But don't step in, tell someone not only are their ideas half-baked but that if they can't deal with the complexities of Hero to ship off. A discussion of the point may bring people around to realize the system works fine as is, but beating them with the book isn't the way to do that. I'm being honest when I say that there is no malice in my posting here, but I think it is important that ideas, good or bad, are not quashed.

You then launched into a critique of my suggestion. I was taking a minimalist approach in my post, and assumed I would not need to post things like -1 STUN and -11 STUN are unchanged, etc. I only posted what I had changed from the stock rules.

I think at this point if you want to discuss my response to my perception of your post as a flame, feel free to email me directly.

So, now let's dive into the particulars.

No free recovery for END & STUN post-seg 12. Also, no tracking of basic END (strike, move, etc.). This is only appropriate for a heroic game, not supers.

Combat can now move along without players or the GM having to track END for every sword swing and every bit of movement. This makes managing thugs much easier, as well as simplifies what players have to track. Now the only time players have to make note of END use is when they do something exceptional (pushing, sweeps, etc.), which is when play usually slows down a bit anyway.

Negative STUN effects are unchanged. My comment about a string of phases, one after the other, is how the system feels since as a GM I never say, "alright, everyone take a recovery". The combat just rolls along. There are still turns, and people still bleed, we just no longer have that metagaming pause.

The bottom line is this is a really minor tweak to the rules, that balances out overall. It doesn't complicate things because all of the other rules are still in place. The only concession is that STUN builds up more quickly, but overall this only slightly increases the lethality of the game, which is fine IMO since Hero is fairly, well, heroic.

I whole-heartedly agree with you that Hero is one of the finer systems out there. The flexibility is one of its strengths.

I also agree, as my prior post states, that randomization is probably a wash in the long run, and probably mixes things up unnecessarily. It can be fun, sure, but the end result is a more or less flat system.

Look at the D&D Initiative system. Everyone rolls a d20, with a variance of DEX bonus and maybe Improved Initiative. Once the combat begins, the initiative is static. I think the real issue is surprise, and how to handle it. I handle it by starting combat in segment 12, but require a PER roll by all potentially surprised targets (which could be everyone) to react. If they fail, they have to make an EGO roll, cumulative +1 per phase, before they can act. Additionally, they are considered Surprised and Out of Combat until the next turn begins.

Whew, I think that's it for now. Keneton and I have beat each other and this horse to a pulp. I apologize if I killed this thread, and hopefully I offered enough morsels the discussion can continue.

[Nelijal]

Originally posted by mudpyr8
A discussion of the point may bring people around to realize the system works fine as is, but beating them with the book isn't the way to do that.Can we make an exception for GMs beating their players with the book? Sometimes, a good FREd bashing is just what the doctor ordered. ;)

[Xiawarr]

Eternity Shard,
Thanks for clarifying my post! :)) I really appreciate it. I love the Deadland settings as well, but always come back to Hero. I've been playing since 1st Edition Champions. I also use the poker chips in my Hero system (call them Karma points). There is nothing quite like tossing a poker chip to a player as a reward for a great idea, or good roleplaying. It's immediate gratification that you can hold onto!

mudpyr8,
Actually it works very well. I have used it with as few as four players and up to ten at the same time. I like the random element, without anyone losing any of their actions. It may not be for everyone, but it works for me and my player group. :cool:

[mudpyr8]

Xiawarr: I used to use a fate system as well, modeled after Deadlands, but have since moved on to a card system.

Players start with 3 cards and earn 1 card per adventure (not session, or 1 card per 5 points more or less). Once spent, they are gone. They can use xp to buy cards, and can trade cards in for points. I award bonus cards for good rping, and agree with your view of that reward system.

The cards are bonuses to specific actions, and built off of a DH article and a Pyramid article. With a few exceptions (e.g. Free Reroll), all the cards are unique. If a player likes a card he gets and doesn't use it, he can keep it next session.

One card that is popular is "Dramatic Entrance/Exit", which maxes a PRE attack. Quite useful anytime but good in combat to cause the baddies to pause. I like the story opportunities the cards offer, and they still provide a little bit of an edge to help players survive.

Last adventure while facing a wormwraith (corpse animated by undead worms ala Princess Mononoke), a player used "That wasn't there before" to stumble over a vial of holy water (they were in an abandoned temple). He picked it up and unfortunately missed the wormwraith, hitting the dwarf in the head, breaking the vial. So, the card gave him a very useful tool but didn't ensure its effectiveness. Overall quite fun.

[Xiawarr]

mudpyr8,
Sounds sort of like the cards from the Torg system. Any chance I could get a copy of your fate card rules?

I can be reached at clendnn@pacbell.net

Thanks again,
Keith (aka Xiawarr)

[Keneton]

I'm glad the personal stuff is out of the way. I can see how you may have taken my statements as inflamatory, but I was only attempting to incite discussion. Lets return to the random Speed issue. I think the end issue is for another thread.

Regarding Random Speed (so far all solutions given). Unless I am missing something they all still fail to make the game more simple, in fact mess things up quite a bit. Here is why.

1. You may no longer use any maneuver with the takes extra phase element including Haymaker as this is likely to burn a phase.
2. You can randomly screw yourself out of recovering from being stunned or knocked out.
3. You cannot accurately simulate a "countdown to doomsday" fight scene.
4. No power with the takes extra Time could be taken without burning phases in at least some circumstance.
5. By looking at the card stacks and the dice modifiers the players will be able to tell the speeds of the villains.
6. Continous powers do not mesh with this sytem.
7. Vehicle movement will not work wth this sytem.
8. Characters may never be able to save falling normals or deal with segmented movements at all.
9. You can never abort a phase from the next turn.
10. You do not know when you can abort again as your phase may not come up at your Dex.
11. Snapshot, Hipshot, and Hurry no longer work.

Well this is off the top of my head. Speed is an integral part of the system. I ma sure ingeniuos players can come up with a system that works to make Speed more random, but you will have to deal with at least a few of these issues. I am sure the solutions are simple, but once again the solution is worse than the problem.

I am not saying Hero or Bust. I am saying the alternative to this problem is a bigger problem.

:confused:

[Hierax]

Here's my suggestion for an alternative:

Roll a d12 for each point of SPD your character has; the numbers on the dice are the phases in which you act (either reroll duplicates or move them to the next open segment).

Same number of actions, randomly mixed up instead of always the same.

The dice sit right there on the table telling you when it is your phase; read the dice instead of the Speed Chart.

Simple.

[Hierax]

Here's another alternative:

Roll for Initiative as if DEX were STR inflicting damage, highest goes first.

10 DEX 2d6
15 DEX 3d6
20 DEX 4d6
...

(Or any other method that you want that links DEX to dice.)

This way the higher DEX characters usually go first, but not always.

(you can use the "Standard Effect Rule" here if you don't want random but the opponent does)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hierax
Here's my suggestion for an alternative:

Roll a d12 for each point of SPD your character has; the numbers on the dice are the phases in which you act (either reroll duplicates or move them to the next open segment).

Same number of actions, randomly mixed up instead of always the same.

The dice sit right there on the table telling you when it is your phase; read the dice instead of the Speed Chart.

Simple.

That is a really cool idea.

[GradonSilverton]

It seems that you are forgetting the Excessive cost for Speed increase!!! for most people we are talking in the neighborhood of 15 points to go from a speend 2 to a 4. If a human Max game, where 4 is the max number, 15 out of my 100 or so points is a big spend. Does this allow for metagaming? sure if that what you call it. Is it perfect reality? Absolutly. Ask any martial artist who has fought in competition. If they are squaring off against an opponent that is 2X their mass but 1/2 their speed, they know it! And they know how many maneuvers they can probably get in before their opponent can take a whack at them. Whats the down side? When that 2x mass opponent swings, if he connects, it hurts alot more than someone my size hitting me. What happened? He paid the points for strength! He trained his strength via weights, ect. Me, I spent points on speed and quickness. Didnt really have time to bulk up, in fact, it was harder to get faster than it would have been to get stronger (ie the Speed point cost.)

I believe that the speed chart is one the most realistic and balanced aspect of the Hero system.

[Markdoc]

From the suggestions listed here, few people are suggesting that SPD is not important, or that it shouldn't be.

I agree with the post above that a higher SPD character should get an advantage in combat.

I don't like the idea that a SPD4 character can square off against a SPD3 and *know* that unless surprised, or trapped under a car, he will always, always, always, always get the first blow AND a chance to abort afterwards.

I HAVE martial arts experience - and FITZ who started the thread is a black belt in Aikido. We're both fully aware that faster opponents have an edge and also that you can never be certain of the order in which blows will land.

To take specific questions:

>>>>1. You may no longer use any maneuver with the takes extra phase element including Haymaker as this is likely to burn a phase.<<<<

Umm. No. If you throw a haymaker, it will land at the end of the next segment, just as it currently does, regardless of your SPD. Using a random system merely means you can never be sure your opponent will just stand there docilely waiting for it to land. I rate that a plus.

>>>>2. You can randomly screw yourself out of recovering from being stunned or knocked out.<<<<<

Again, no. You get your recoveries as and when appropriate. The only difference is that you can't calculate precisley how long you will be out, nor can you plan on getting a recovery every 12 seconds. That means you can't precisely plan you END usage - but again, I like this. Sometimes players and NPCs will run out of steam sooner than they had expected - just like in real life. They'll have to deal with this - just like in real life.

>>>>>>3. You cannot accurately simulate a "countdown to doomsday" fight scene.<<<<

I have indeed done precisely this with a random SPD system and it worked fine. Time still passes - its just that the number of actions becomes a bit more divorced from the SPD chart (although on average, it is the same). You can't really call this more or less accurate, as both are artificial constructs. Do you really think a 1 phase action (shoot an automatic pistol once) takes exactly the same time as a 1 phase action (run 24 metres)?. Obviously not, but that's how the rules work.

>>>4. No power with the takes extra Time could be taken without burning phases in at least some circumstance.<<<<

We use this modifier, without problems. The only difference is that you cannot precisely predict *precisely* how many actions someone will get in the intervening time, although you can make a pretty good guess - again, from my point of view, a bonus.

>>>>>5. By looking at the card stacks and the dice modifiers the players will be able to tell the speeds of the villains.<<<<<

It's a pretty dim player who can't work this out unless the GM is being deliberately tricksy - and in that case do your rolling or cardstacking behind a shield or give your slef some extra cards, which you don't use, just to mess them up.

>>>>>6. Continous powers do not mesh with this sytem.<<<<

Actually, since continuous powers work on each of your phases, they work exactly as they always have - with the caveat that you cannot say exactly how many actions others will get in those phases - though again, you will have a pretty good idea.

>>>>>7. Vehicle movement will not work wth this sytem.<<<<<

Umm, why not? We've never had any problems - vehicles have SPD and a move, just like players and work the same way. they are assumed to be moving in between phases, just as players do. I've certainly never assumed a gallopinghorse lunges forward 30 metres in one second then stops stock still for 4 seconds (they'd be hell to stay on, if they did - ptwangggg!)

>>>8. Characters may never be able to save falling normals or deal with segmented movements at all.<<<<<

Again, not a problem. In the standard system - as in a random one - catching a falling person depends on having a phase to act and enough move. In both cases, as a GM, I'd allow a "dive for cover" style abort for a desperate lunge - but note that can be necessary in both systems.

>>>9. You can never abort a phase from the next turn.<<<

Umm. Wrong. Aborts are handled exactly as in the standard system - if you abort, you give up your next action. That might be in three seconds or it might be in 6 - but that's how the speed chart system works too.

>>>>>10. You do not know when you can abort again as your phase may not come up at your Dex.<<<<<

Hmmm. I don't understand this one. Neither your SPD nor your DEX changes. You always act on your DEX, if it is your phase, whether in a randomized system, or the SPD chart. If you have aborted, it is true that in a random system, you can never be 100% sure of when you get a second chance - but that sort of randomness is the point, after all.


>>>11. Snapshot, Hipshot, and Hurry no longer work.<<<

No again - they all work, as they are designed to allow you to go first, or fire and move. If anything, snapshot becomes MORE important in a random system since it means a higher SPD chracter can no longer stroll languidly out from behind cover and shoot, knowing that he has a phase in hand to load his gun and stroll back into cover before his slower opponents can return fire.

I've actually seen exactly this happen - a street samurai (SPD6) with a sword is trapped behind a a burned out truck by a bunch of SPD3 corporate goons, who are crouching behind a low wall (they don't know he's out of ammo).

On Phase 2, he swarms across the street (full move), and cuts one of them down on a moveby. He's now standing right next to a swarm of heavily armed goons, in his jeans and T shirt. Suicidal, eh? Well, no, he knows they get to go on 4 *after* he does. So on 4 he runs back behind the truck, by the time their DEX rolls around, he's back in cover. For them to move to where they can see him will also take a full move, so they cannot shoot at him. While I have no objection this in principle (cool move, dude!) I do object to the fact that there was not one faintest bit of risk. He KNEW he would act first and he KNEW he could run away again before they shot. Using my current random system, he would know that he had a very good chance of getting away with it - but it's not written in stone.

Remember, I am not talking hypothetical here - I've been GM'ing Hero system games for more than 20 years - and using a randomized SPD chart for nearly 8. *I* think it's a big improvement and while some people prefer the chart, many others do not.


cheers, Mark

[Keneton]

I don't think that you are understanding my objections and cleraly you are not using the same random systems touted on this thread. All of my objections are valid.

1. Your response to my haymaker argument. Under the random die system If I haymaker in the 6th and then I randomly get to go in the 7th, I burn a phase. I cannot go twice in a phase. It sound like your random sytem does not work this way, but the systems suggested seem to.
2. Regarding knock out. What you propose could work but in this case under your system a person could recover stun and wake up before I get to finish him off or before another stunned character does. Your extra speed is reduced to random chance. You've made Chess into Backgammon.
3. I can't argue about how much time things take. Im talking about a doomsday device counting down from 10 to zero as the characters fight. Too bad you cant save the day becasue you randomly don't have a phase until the 11th and 12th.
4. Uh in this case what palyer would take extra time limitation if he thought he might be standing around with his but hanging out for 4 or 5 segments.
5. You have a good argument regarding the card stacks, but then again This thread has argued metagame from the get-go as the reason to get rid of the speed chart. I am showing you that the solution has another metagame problem, just as big and worse in complication.
6. I see your point but you missed mine. You are really randomizing an already dagerous advantage.
7. Here is why vehicles don't work in this system. Random phases for Four speed car 6,7, 11, 12 Random Phase for Driver 2,3,5,9, and12. OOOPs sorry I cant drive! Had to burn several phases holding to drive and can't control car now. Solution already worse than the problem.
8. I dont think you get this one. Falling is segmented and phases would be random. If someone fell you can abort to a dive but make that dex roll! Aborting with a -10 roll Huh!!! See the pattern. Anything segmented is screwed by the proposed systems. If you have this solved please explain, but I bet once again the solution is worse than the problem.
9. Under your random sytem maybe you can abort from the next turn. Under a few determined so far this would mean possibly aborting until as late as the 10th of the next turn if a 3 Speed and going for the first time that turn at their Dex in the 11th!! "I abort my next turn to save the child. Ok on the 2nd the villain finishes you off and then on the third he finishes oiff the normal anyway. Sorry random dice or cards (not heroic!)
10. I express this as confusion on how the random roll is completed. On the thread some see determined from turn to turn and others from phase to phase. You may not be able to abort if say Under a Presence attack and you hesitate. Then your phase doesnt come up for 5 segemnst and you are the same as cowed by a +10 Presence attack!!!
11. You must know when you have a phase to declare hipshot or hurry. If you hava randomly determined phase, you cannot know ahead of time. Now your system seems to determine before the turn which still works, but others are detremined from segment to segment. In the S2S sytem, these do not work (follow). Under your sytem they would, but. . .

Under a determine at randomly at the start of the turn system, you still have the same metagame of knowing when you go, So this whole rules gyration did nothing except possibly make someone go all at the start of the turn or possibly at the end.

My argument is that this randomization adds nothing except plausibly unbalanced combats. As a GM I want to know if a combat sould go the characters way or not. A random Chance that the bad guys get front of the turn loaded phases vs the good guys (potentially all acting late in the turn and only able to abort) is game breaking. You may end up standing there as the bad guy shoots you and stills the loot. Even if you abort, your just more in the phase hole.

If random is more real to you fine. but to me it seems it will more likely end up producing weird time issues that just dont work. I like a thinking game. I prefer Chess to Backgammon.


:rolleyes:

[Hierax]

I agree that randomizing the Speed Chart is a good idea and I can also see where sometimes that absolute certainty of the standard Speed Chart is a good thing for the plot.

That's the beauty of the (above) d12 per point of SPD system, you can use the dice if you want random or the chart if you want static, and the two can be used interchangeably

-- e.g., standard SPD Chart for minor characters like 'mooks' and the dice for main characters like PCs

or use the standard chart for minor encounters and the random dice for major ones where anything can happen.

[Markdoc]

>>>>I don't think that you are understanding my objections and cleraly you are not using the same random systems touted on this thread. All of my objections are valid.<<<<

Actually you’re right – some of your objections were not clear to me. I am using one of the systems described – No. 2, I think on the original list.

>>>>1. Your response to my haymaker argument. Under the random die system If I haymaker in the 6th and then I randomly get to go in the 7th, I burn a phase. I cannot go twice in a phase. It sound like your random sytem does not work this way, but the systems suggested seem to.<<<<

OK, this in fact, I didn’t understand, since you stated “You may not use any maneuver…”. Of course you CAN use such maneuvers, as I pointed out, but you do run the risk of losing an action – just as you can with the normal SPD chart if you delay to a phase before your next – and yes, I’ve seen it happen, including the argument that followed along the lines of “I should get another action! etc etc”.


>>>2. Regarding knock out. What you propose could work but in this case under your system a person could recover stun and wake up before I get to finish him off or before another stunned character does. Your extra speed is reduced to random chance. You've made Chess into Backgammon.<<<

In theory this could happen – although again, this can also happen under the standard SPD chart. The chess versus backgammon analogy is a fair one – it’d be a fool that argued Backgammon was not a game of skill, but there is a large element of chance. As an aside, I prefer Backgammon to Chess. :-)


>>>>3. I can't argue about how much time things take. Im talking about a doomsday device counting down from 10 to zero as the characters fight. Too bad you cant save the day becasue you randomly don't have a phase until the 11th and 12th.<<<<

I suppose it could happen, although it would be highly unlikely. In my case I ran a time-limited doomsday scenario where the players were battling to get hold of a boat before the wave of toxic volcanic gas washed over them - the random system worked fine and that session is remembered as high point in the game.

>>>>4. Uh in this case what palyer would take extra time limitation if he thought he might be standing around with his but hanging out for 4 or 5 segments.<<<<

Well, plenty of them have, so I guess this point is moot. YOU might not – but obviously other people have no problem with it, although they cannot be described as Hero novices – some of them are published Hero system authors. There is a RISK of exposure – but then again that’s true using the SPD chart – it’s merely there the risk is 100% defined.

>>>>5. You have a good argument regarding the card stacks, but then again This thread has argued metagame from the get-go as the reason to get rid of the speed chart. I am showing you that the solution has another metagame problem, just as big and worse in complication.<<<

Absolutely not – the problem is not the existence of a metagame – we acknowledge from the beginning that the whole system is artificial. The problemis the difference between a player thinking “I’m faster than he is. I can take him” and “I’m 25% faster than he is. If I go on the defensive now, in three seconds there will be a window when I can attack without fear of retaliation”. In other words, not the existence of a metagame – but metagaming itself. Using a GM’s shield doesn’t fall into that category….


>>>>6. I see your point but you missed mine. You are really randomizing an already dagerous advantage.<<<

Ummm. And this makes a difference how, exactly? Well, I can answer that for you, based on years of experience – it doesn’t. Obviously moving from an average of 4 actions per turn from a guaranteed 4 actions per turn will affect continuous. It also affects 0 END, or damage shield and a host of other factors. Since the difference is as often positive as negative, the net effect is big fat zero.

>>>>7. Here is why vehicles don't work in this system. Random phases for Four speed car 6,7, 11, 12 Random Phase for Driver 2,3,5,9, and12. OOOPs sorry I cant drive! Had to burn several phases holding to drive and can't control car now. Solution already worse than the problem.<<<<

It wasn’t til I got to THIS point that I realized where you were coming from. You have completely misunderstood the way the system works. To make it plain I’ll shout: PHASES ARE NOT DETERMINED RANDOMLY FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL (that would be a complete nightmare for the GM, and the whole point is to make this simpler as well as more fun). They are determined for the game as a whole. So you cannot get a phase where the car acts and the driver does not, unless they have different SPDs – and if they do, this disconnect also happens under the SPD chart. So, as stated, no problem.

>>>>8. I dont think you get this one. Falling is segmented and phases would be random. If someone fell you can abort to a dive but make that dex roll! Aborting with a -10 roll Huh!!! See the pattern. Anything segmented is screwed by the proposed systems. If you have this solved please explain, but I bet once again the solution is worse than the problem.<<<<

In theory, this could happen, if a) the “catching” character was low SPD and b) a really unliley series of dice rolls took place. I’ve never seen such a situation, but given the odds of rolling (say) 6 “6”s on the trot, that’s hardly surprising.

>>>>9. Under your random sytem maybe you can abort from the next turn. Under a few determined so far this would mean possibly aborting until as late as the 10th of the next turn if a 3 Speed and going for the first time that turn at their Dex in the 11th!! "I abort my next turn to save the child. Ok on the 2nd the villain finishes you off and then on the third he finishes oiff the normal anyway. Sorry random dice or cards (not heroic!)<<<<

See the answer to 7. Can’t happen. If the villain goes on 2, you do too, unless you are SPD1.

>>>>>10. I express this as confusion on how the random roll is completed. On the thread some see determined from turn to turn and others from phase to phase. You may not be able to abort if say Under a Presence attack and you hesitate. Then your phase doesnt come up for 5 segemnst and you are the same as cowed by a +10 Presence attack!!! <<<
Fair enough, there are quite different systems being discussed here, so some confusion is to be expected – especially if you haven’t been kicking this issue around for a decade, as some of us have :-). I specified in the first post that I used a “dice determines phase” system. If you use a system where everyone’s phases are out of sync, then this could happen – which is why I would not advocate such an approach (a little randomness good – too much randomness bad).


>>>>>11. You must know when you have a phase to declare hipshot or hurry. If you hava randomly determined phase, you cannot know ahead of time. Now your system seems to determine before the turn which still works, but others are detremined from segment to segment. In the S2S sytem, these do not work (follow). Under your sytem they would, but. . .<<<<

Sure, I’m not arguing that every random system has an equal helping of goodness. What I like about the “dice determines phase” system is that you cannot know when your phase is coming up in advance, though depending on the SPD difference, you can certainly hope to get some “free phases”. That means that the decision to take a snapshot has to be made WHEN THE OPPORTUNITY PRESENTS ITSELF – not planned at headquarters a month earlier.

>>>>>>Under a determine at randomly at the start of the turn system, you still have the same metagame of knowing when you go, So this whole rules gyration did nothing except possibly make someone go all at the start of the turn or possibly at the end.<<<<<

Agreed, just mushing the phases around and then going in sequence adds little – plus it makes the GM’s job harder – a big minus in my book.

>>>>>>My argument is that this randomization adds nothing except plausibly unbalanced combats. As a GM I want to know if a combat sould go the characters way or not. A random Chance that the bad guys get front of the turn loaded phases vs the good guys (potentially all acting late in the turn and only able to abort) is game breaking. You may end up standing there as the bad guy shoots you and stills the loot. Even if you abort, your just more in the phase hole.<<<<

Messing phases around randomly between players – I agree. Changing the phases around randomly, changes the picture across the board and does NOT unbalance the game. That’s not speculation, I have run literally hundreds of sessions at a variety of power levels – other GMs use the same system I do and they also have not reported any of these issues you suggest (indeed, some of them cannot occur under any circumstances).

To make it clear – here’s what I do. Two PC’s (SPD4) are lying in ambush for 6 city watch (SPD2). When the guards pass them by, they spring out and attack (getting a “free” action since they were prepared and delayed). After that, we go to phases. Since no-one has a SPD higher than 4, I roll a d6 for phases (that will generate some empty phases, in which held actions can be used). I roll a 4. That means SPD 4 and higher go – the PCs get another phase, the guards don’t react (unless they abort). The next phase, I roll again – this time I roll a 5 (empty phase – no-one has a held action, so no-one goes). The third roll is a 1. Everyone has a SPD 1 or higher, so everyone goes – in DEX order – and at the end of the phase everyone gets a post-12 recovery. (Now actually a post-1 :-)). Simple and fast. The players can expect to get roughly twice as many actions as their opponents – they simply cannot predict in what order they will arrive. I have had situations like the above where the players leap into the fray, I roll a bunch of 4’s and the guards all end up dead. That’s counterbalanced by the time I roll all 1’s and the guards put up an unexpectedly fierce resistance. Both events are rare – but neither can be described as unrealistic. The main point for me is a) it is simpler than keeping track of the SPD chart in complicated fights where I might have 20 NPCs with differing SPDs and b) the players know what they can do and what they can expect – but results are never set 100% in stone. To say this shifts the game entirely to chance is silly – we have andom rolls to hit and for damage. I have certainly played in fights where the mighty fighter could not hit his opponents or put any damage through their 2 DEF armour. I have also played sessions where the mighty fighter was felled by a single lucky shot to the head. But I don’t see anyone proposing a that a sword always does exactly 8 BOD and 20 STUN and that OCV 12 ALWAYS hits DCV 10 and NEVER hits DCV14. A degree of randomness is built into the system, so HERO is not chess – nor would I want it to be.

[Keneton]

Thanks Markdoc for many of your clarifications. They have helped me understand your system. Not ALL of the systems on this board meet my objections, but I do appreciate the fact that you have playtested this for so long.

I noted my concerns based on all of the proposed systems. In some only a few problems existed, in others a few more. Thank you for the lively and entertaining debate.:)

If any of the others wish to respond to my concerns about altering speed, please do. I will check this thread from time to time. Specifically the roll a d12 for each speed and deadland card system method. which seem to fail in nearly all of my objections posted above.

I look forward to more fun flled chat!!:D

[CourtFool]

1. Remind me why it is bad for the character to succeed?
2. Why do your players know what their opponent's SPD is?
3. If there is such a big difference between SPD 3 and 4, throw some SPD 4 villians at your players. It is not like the GM is limited to character points.

Now this is my own personal feeling, so I am not attacking anyone here, but I really hate any additional randomness. I have lousey luck with dice so the fewer rolls I have to make the better. If you I have to make some kind of roll (with or without butter) for my SPD, I can promise you I will get screwed.

It is my opinion that a player who spent ten extra points on SPD should have an advantage. I have never had a problem with players calculating which phase to perform a specific maneuver. Most of my combats are deadly lethal and rarely last longer than two turns. Whoever draws first, wins. Is this bad? Only if you are the slower one.

My best tactic for players who abuse a particular rule is to use it right back against them. Let the villians maximize their effectiveness on the SPD chart too.

Just my 1¢ worth. Your players are obviously far more devious than mine and enjoy ruining the game by exploiting weakness.

[DMTingle]

Originally posted by Blackout
I think what you're calling predictability is actually a neat way to demonstrate a character's grasp of tactics and their ability to "size up" their opponents.

Of course, you can always throw your players a curve, and have some creatures they encounter start of by holding an action and acting on a different phase than they "should".

If you want to abandon the speed chart, though, one thing that worked for us was to take cards numbered 1 through 12, shuffle them, and flip one at a time. Next turn, do the same thing. Much quicker than rolling dice.


I like this one the best. Leaves everything intact and makes the players think.

[Keneton]

DM Tingle.

This method does not work. See my post above for 11 reasons it fails.

[Markdoc]

>>>>1. Remind me why it is bad for the character to succeed?<<<<<

That's not the point: as a GM, I have an unlimited universe of player-hurting tools were I to want them. I WANT the players to be heroic.


>>>2. Why do your players know what their opponent's SPD is?<<<

'cos they can read. :-) Seriously, if they leap on a a villian, and he goes on 3, they automatically think "Min SPD4". Using the standard SPD chart he might be 5, or 6 and trying to lull them into a false sense of security, but it doesn't take long to work out.

>>>>3. If there is such a big difference between SPD 3 and 4, throw some SPD 4 villians at your players. It is not like the GM is limited to character points.<<<<

Done that - but again, getting the drop on the players is not the point. The point is

a) to make life simpler for the GM - to get away from the "Umm, it's phase 9 - who goes now? No, Grymm, you aborted on 7, didn't you? Oh wait, I forgot, Thorgall hasn't gone on 8 yet, and by the way, those archers who were delayed, did they shoot, already?"

and b) to avoid the "I'll save my action until 7, 'cos nobody goes then, so I can sweep with all my levels on OCV. Then on 8, I go before them, so I'll switch all my levels to DCV and dodge. On 12 I'll delay again, so if they attack I can dodge, but if they don't attack, then I'll delay until 1 so I can sweep again. I'm going to get a soda now, here's my damage and attack rolls - let me know how it went while I was away"

In other words, my goal was to keep the LEVEL of threat the same, but get the players more involved - to make combat more a reactive thing than a carefully plotted-out-in-advance series of moves.

For what it's worth, that seems to have worked. By making things more chaotic, lower points characters SEEM more of a threat than they really are, because you can't always assume you'll beat them to the draw,

[CourtFool]

Originally posted by Markdoc
That's not the point: as a GM, I have an unlimited universe of player-hurting tools were I to want them. I WANT the players to be heroic.

It sounds to me that by taking advantage of the SPD chart they are being heroic.


'cos they can read. :-) Seriously, if they leap on a a villian, and he goes on 3, they automatically think "Min SPD4". Using the standard SPD chart he might be 5, or 6 and trying to lull them into a false sense of security, but it doesn't take long to work out.

It seems a few held actions would add some mystery.

a) to make life simpler for the GM - to get away from the "Umm, it's phase 9 - who goes now? No, Grymm, you aborted on 7, didn't you? Oh wait, I forgot, Thorgall hasn't gone on 8 yet, and by the way, those archers who were delayed, did they shoot, already?"

and b) to avoid the "I'll save my action until 7, 'cos nobody goes then, so I can sweep with all my levels on OCV. Then on 8, I go before them, so I'll switch all my levels to DCV and dodge. On 12 I'll delay again, so if they attack I can dodge, but if they don't attack, then I'll delay until 1 so I can sweep again. I'm going to get a soda now, here's my damage and attack rolls - let me know how it went while I was away"


Am I understanding correctly that using held actions adds unwanted complications? Even with held actions, a higher speed character is eventually going to get that extra phase.

[Old Man]

The problem is one of balance among the players. One point of SPD is about the most effective possible way to spend ten points. At the very least it gives the SPD 4 character +3 DCV and an extra half move versus SPD 3 opponents. As a result, the SPD 4 character sleepwalks through opposition that remains dangerous for the characters who spent their 10 points on strength or dex or levels. That's what makes it hard for the GM--giving the SPD 4 character a hard time without killing off the rest of the group in the process.

[Derek Hiemforth]

IMO, there's nothing wrong with the Speed Chart. When issues of metagaming and predictability arise, it's due to people using player knowledge vs. character knowledge, and not roleplaying their characters faithfully. The characters don't know that Segment 12 is always the best time for a Pushed Haymaker. ;)

We've tried a couple of alternative methods for SPD, and found that they were always worse than the Speed Chart.

We tried the straight "roll 1d12 and if you roll your SPD or less, you act" method. The problem was that you could have Turns where a character with a 4 SPD got 10 Phases, and Turns where a character with a 7 SPD got 1 Phase. And while this of course didn't happen every Turn, it happened way more often than we wanted to see.

So then we tried Steve Perrin's version, where you add 1 to the roll every time you miss. The problem with that one (especially if you're not expecting it) is that it drives up the amount of actions you get. If you've got a 6 SPD, then under that system you will (over time) be going much more than 6 times per Turn. This happens because there will be plenty of times when you make the roll without the bonuses, and when you do, there is no penalty that corresponds with the bonus. In other words, there's a bonus to help you go next time when you fail a roll, but there's no penalty to help keep you from going next time when you succeed with a roll. So your 6 SPD will end up behaving as more like an 8 SPD or something.

Also, both dice methods negatively impacted character cooperation. It's nearly impossible to do things like Coordinated Attacks, because you have no idea when your teammate will get an action again; you may end up standing there for half a Turn waiting for them to be able to coordinate with you.

We also tried rolling the Phases at the beginning of the Turn and noting when they would occur, so that you always went a number of Phases equal to your SPD, but which Phases varied from Turn to Turn. The problem with that one was that it didn't really solve any of the supposed problems with the Speed Chart. You still knew in advance when you were going to have actions... it just wasn't the same from Turn to Turn.

In the end, we realized that the Speed Chart wasn't really the problem. :)

[Keneton]

Derek:

You have just made my point. Thank you. The problem is the alternate solution! The Speed Chart is not a problem at all. If you are having a play balance problem or a tactics problem changing the speed chart WILL NOT SOLVE IT!

You will only have a more complicated fix and still have the same metagamers abuse the new system!

:)

Old Man: How you get this +3 DCV thing by asuming the extra phase is used dodging. . .
Can you knock someone out dodging? Dodging doesnt win fights.
:rolleyes:

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Keneton
Old Man: How you get this +3 DCV thing by asuming the extra phase is used dodging. . .
Can you knock someone out dodging? Dodging doesnt win fights.
:rolleyes: He's saying that if your SPD is higher than theirs, you can Dodge on all of theirPhases and still smack them in your remaining one(s).

[Keneton]

I know wht he meant, but its just not true. Holding can negate small speed adavantages. (Read the entire thread for my examples).

Sure Speed is a good buy, but so is STR. for 10 points you get . . .
+2 DC, (cost 8 elsewhere)
+5 Stun (cost 5 elsewhere)
+2 Recovery (cost 4)
+2 PD (cost 2)
adds to max lift (no cost added)
+2 Leaping (2 points)

Total Value. . .21 points for 10. Best buy in the game. Don't worry about Speed!
;)

[CourtFool]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
He's saying that if your SPD is higher than theirs, you can Dodge on all of theirPhases and still smack them in your remaining one(s).

So the character with a higher SPD dances around his opponent waiting for an opening to make his fatal blow? Personally, I see nothing wrong with this.

[Keneton]

Thanks CF!

I am glad that you see that there is nothing wrong with Speed.

Some characters are stronger, some are faster, and some have more defense. I don't see what is wrong with that at all!

This thread started with several systems. Some were ok, some very bad. None stood up to all of the critiques given. The Speed Chart was shown to be clearly superior. Now the arguments are reduced to "Speed is unbalancing."

I think that this thread is beat.

The Defense Rests. . .:eek:

[Greenstar]

I'm not so sure. I've considered things, and I can't seee a horrid objection to the "deck of cards 1-12" method. It adds a small amount of randomness to the play and helps cut down ont he metagaming aspect (and please, don't use the "IC vs. OOC issue here. That's impossible to really adjudicate well) without crucifying the system.

But the bottom line is, why not use what works for you? There seems to be a lot of "religious war" sentiment in this thread.

[CourtFool]

Originally posted by Greenstar
I'm not so sure. I've considered things, and I can't seee a horrid objection to the "deck of cards 1-12" method. It adds a small amount of randomness to the play and helps cut down ont he metagaming aspect (and please, don't use the "IC vs. OOC issue here. That's impossible to really adjudicate well) without crucifying the system.

I would still be against this system because with my luck I will draw a bunch of high cards and the SPD 3 grunts would get all the low cards.

Originally posted by Greenstar
But the bottom line is, why not use what works for you? There seems to be a lot of "religious war" sentiment in this thread.

A good point, but I think people feel very strongly about this as I do. I am sure we have all played in a game where the GM used a house rule we hated. That is where the anger is coming from. But hey...what does a fat, hairy llama know? :p

[Greenstar]

I didn't mean everyone drew different cards. The GM draws, and the phases get shuffled about. You still go on your normal phase, you just aren't sure when it'll come up.

I'll take the caveat also that I don't play Supers games; I far prefer Fantasy or Swashbuckling or Modern or Post-Apocalyptic. So no one has over a SPD 5 at the best.

as for house rules that are hated, hey, the idea is for everyone to have fun, right? Otherwise, why p;ay? I'd never tyr and force my players to put up with something they totally hated. Sure I'd try and convince them, but if I couldn't, well, toss it!

[Markdoc]

>>>as for house rules that are hated, hey, the idea is for everyone to have fun, right? Otherwise, why p;ay? I'd never tyr and force my players to put up with something they totally hated. Sure I'd try and convince them, but if I couldn't, well, toss it!<<<

Exactly! My experience (and it's pretty damn extensive on this subject) has been that players in general like a simple randomised SPD chart, since it reduces the strain on their brains. BUT! Not everyone does. If I had players who hated it, I'd switch back.

So far I have introduced 4 groups (as GM) to the system I use. The reaction has been:

Group 1 (all experienced Hero system roleplayers, mostly also GMs): Thank GOD! Took to the new system IMMEDIATELY. Of the three I have kept in touch with, only one still games frequently - he still uses the randomised SPD Chart.

Group 2 (amostly experienced gamers, all but one new to Hero system). Tried both systems with them in a couple of short games to get them used to the rules. They preferred the random system to the SPD chart, but I think that's just 'co it was easier.

Group 3 (all experienced hero players, including one Hero author) One really loved it, one really hated it (the only guy who has, so far: Hi Mike!) and three said they didn't really care. I used it anyway, and after a couple of sessions, never heard any complaints.....

Group 4 (Mostly newbies - one has played Hero before) Went straight to the Random system on this one. The newbies could have cared less, the only other Hero gamers (my wife - not Hardcore :-)) commented it was "better than that stupid system where you had to remember what phase it was all the time"

Ya can't say "It doesn't work" or "It's worse than the problem it was meant to slove" because I have hundreds of hours of experience and I KNOW it does work. And for me and my players it is better than the standard system.

That doesn't mean that everyone should use the same system as I do: It's a house rule and like most of my house rules is a tweak to the game, not a wholesale change.

Still, this discussion has had one benefit - I think I'll try switching to numbered cards, instead of a dice. One of the real problems - a little one, but still real - is that using a dice, I can roll several times to get a phase where anyone acts, or I can get a string of phases where everyone acts. Using cards 1-6, when I have a bunch or SPD 4 or less players would ensure exactly the right number of actions for everyone and b) would save time.

the obvious problem is that people could see what has alreday been drawn and calculate what was coming - I'll have to test it to see if that disadvantage outweighs the benefits.

cheers, Mark

[Greenstar]

Keep the crads behind the GM screen and turn the discards face-down. Use 12 cards instead of 6 (a regular deck of cards, 1 suit, no King) to make card-counting harder. Discard face-down <g>.

[Primal]

Originally posted by CourtFool
I would still be against this system because with my luck I will draw a bunch of high cards and the SPD 3 grunts would get all the low cards.

I take it you use all your powers with the "standard effect" rule? :p

Markdoc's viewpoint resonates a lot more strongly with me than with than Keneton's. I'm a little curious as to where "The Speed Chart was shown to be clearly superior. " comes from.

Anyway, what I'd really like is for someone to come up with a more fine-grained speed system. :p

from Derek:
it's due to people using player knowledge vs. character knowledge, and not roleplaying their characters faithfully.
Heheh.. that sort of reminds me of those IBM commercials for Magic Pixie Dust.. sprinkle it on your players and they will roleplay faithfully! I love those commercials!

Anyway, I think it's more dramatic to not know that you can get away with maneuvers like Markdoc mentioned. I think it's more heroic for people to try to execute those maneuvers in the face of that uncertainty.

As for NPCs holding actions to introduce some unpredictability, I tend to have my hands full enough as GM. If I can pick a system that doesn't require extra work on my part (tracking which of the 15 goblins, 8 Worgs, and 3 Orcs have held actions), but still keeps the players from knowing exactly how long until the enemy can make a strike, I like it.

[Victor]

I was tinkering around with Excel a while back, trying to figure out how to calculate which segments were action phases for a given SPD value. Calculating as opposed to doing a table lookup, or list, or whatever -- yes, I know it's not as CPU efficient, but I had to figure it out for my own sanity's sake.

Anyway, I later added a couple variations... one where the action phases for all SPD values are shifted by X segments (not very useful, IMO), and another where all the action phases for each SPD value are shifted by separate values.

The latter mode preserves the interval between actions, but changes up the timing relative to other SPD values. You can print out a separate speed chart for each combat, or even for each turn, although I'd think that might be more trouble than it's worth.

Here it is, on the off chance someone finds it useful/interesting. Click on the yellow square, and select the menu item you want, to change the mode.

[JamesG]

I've toyed with the idea of abandoning the Speed Chart in favor of each character rolling a die and if they roll their speed or under they get an action. There are two reasons this appealed to me:
To introduce an element of randomness to the combat sequencing
To give slow Speed characters a chance to occasionally have a phase in a segment a higher Speed character does not. For example, in the Speed Chart, all of Speed 3's phases are in segments that Speed 6 also has a phase.[/list=1]
But I abandoned the plan for a number of reasons. Mainly, it added additional complication and also I saw some of the problems it could entail that Keneton has pointed out.

This thread has me thinking of trying the "12 numbered cards" method. I assume most who use that system use it either like:[list] (GM turns over card #4) OK, everybody with a Speed 4 or less goes this segment.
or
(GM turns over card #4) OK, everybody with a phase in segment 4 goes.
Both ways fix my issue 1, but not issue 2 (in fact the first way makes issue one worse, as low Speed characters will never have a phase when higher Speeds don't, barring prior aborts by the high Speed char).

One solution I thought of is creating a custom set of 12 cards that say which Speeds go when that card is turned. And then I can set up the cards so that low speeds (other than Speed 1) have at least one card where other "low" Speeds don't go. For example Speed 2 would appear on two cards, the "Everybody goes" card and a card with Speed 2, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12. That way on one of Speed 2's two segments, no other Speed of 6 or lower would be going.

Has anyone experimented with a system like this? I'm not even sure the additional complexity would be worth it.

[Keneton]

The random systems still dont solve my 11 objections. They are still there and no one besides Markdock has even addressed them.

If you think that is being religious, well sorry. Ideas are sound when they can face the voice of reason without being crushed.

If you dont care about the mechanics then just play it your way. It doesnt bother me one bit. :D

I still dont see this improving play or making the GM's life any easier. The random die roll metod fails to my 11 objections.

The cards seem fine but introduce another metagame and invalidates 5 core maneuvers, several powers, and the effective use of vehicles and falling in combat.:confused:

If you think this is improving the game. . . Go for it. I believe the key to the game is fun, but for me that involves some strategy and a strong system.

[dbsousa]

I use a method that works for us, but you all might not like. In any game with NCM, I do not allow characters to spend more than 10 points on SPD. I have found that everyone takes a SPD of 3, even the characters who buy a 20 DEX. The Speed Chart is effectively non existent. The real mooks have a SPD of 2 and never go before the heroes. The super fast creatures have a SPD of 4 and always go first. Every one else goes in 4, 8, and 12, and since the DEXes tend to go from 13 to 18, anyone can Hurry and potentially beat anyone else to the punch.

[Keneton]

Although limiting, your system makes sense to me!:)

[JamesG]

Originally posted by Keneton
The random systems still dont solve my 11 objections. They are still there and no one besides Markdock has even addressed them.

Agreed that the random roll for each character has many (or most) of the problems your 11 objectives specified. One of reasons I never implemented it.

But the basic 12 card system (which is described between "This thread has me thinking" and "Both ways fix my issue 1" in my post above) is pretty similar to Markdoc's system, and he already very effectively refuted your objections, so I saw no reason to repeat that.

Looking back at your objections, some of them are reintroduced by my proposed addition to the system (my paragraph starting "One solution"). But some of your objections were a lot more objectionable than others, and I'm not sure the ones my proposal falls prey to are critical by any stretch.


The cards seem fine but introduce another metagame and invalidates 5 core maneuvers, several powers, and the effective use of vehicles and falling in combat.

What core maneuvers and powers are invalidated? Markdoc has already shown that any maneuvers and powers you've previously given as examples work fine. They may work a little differently, but they are still valid. He also addressed the metagame, vehicles and falling issues to my satisfaction.

[Keneton]

Actually Markdoc originally addressed the issues but then did find that many of my objectsions did still stand and did still apply. Note the second post I made following his that reverified the worth of my concerns. He never refuted my arguments and in fact noted that these concerns were in fact valid. Markdoc chooses the more random sytems in spite of these concerns and I can certainly respect that. To say that my arguments were refuted although is an exaggeration and even Mark would agree to that. Lively debate is not all about right and wrong, but my concerns still stand.

That is not to say that Markdoc was not convincing as to some of the merits to his stytem, but definately he would attest that most of my objections do make sense.

Now once again we are talking about several different systems here. Most of my objections targeted phase by phase randomness whereas Mark's system involved a turn by turn randomization. Concerning the card sytems mentioned in your post. . .

1. Make sure that you are not messing up any abilities that include Takes extra Time (end of next segment).
2. Consider implications with Haymaker.
3. Consider how this will interact with vehicles.
4. Examine how this will effect segmented movemnet for falls.
5. Consider how this will effect stunning, knockout, and the diversification of 0-10 and -11 and beyond.
6. Examine the use of Hurry, Hipshot, and snapshot.
7. Consider how you will mechanically keep track of aborting the next phase in a new turn.
8. Consider when you will handle continous powers.
9. Watch the interaction with Presence attacks.

If your system can work these issues out, then by all menas use it! You have shown quite a grasp of mechanics in this thread and by no means is this task insurmountable. I wish you the best and if you find the cure, please advise as even I may try it for a change!

On another note, I did have a friend that only allowed up to an 8 spd and so had a condensed Speed Chart. It really worked well. I think this is fun and avoids the 3 speed guy being still "in a dodge!" An example for speed 1-6 say for Fantasy hero might go.

SPD 1 Phase 6
SPD 2 Phase 3,6
SPD 3 Phase 2,4,6
SPD 4 Phase 2,3,5,6
SPD 5 Phase 1,2,3,5,6 or 2,3,4,5,6
SPD 6 All 6 Segments

Post 6 Recovery!
This is an example for FH that avoids lots of problems and still speeds up play.

:D