I should read more... comics...

[John T]

When my friends ask me where my campaign ideas come from, I tell them "I read... a LOT." Generally, I don't have much difficulty moving a story from one genre to another.

All that being said, I haven't read comics in decades. Now I'm trying to run a Champions game (also, for the first time in about 12 years), and have realized one annoying little fact: I've forgotten how to make a superhero game FEEL like a superhero game. :nonp:

Anyone here have any suggestions for a mid/late Iron-age setting? Questions, answers, debates, suggested reading (esp. graphic novels) all appreciated.

Thanks lots!

John T

[RDU Neil]

Try Ultimat X-Men for what I would consider "soft" Iron Age. Political and cynical, but still trying to be heroic in such a world. Great feel for that "superteam as family" mentality that I think a goes a long way toward making things feel "superhero-y." Nine Graphic Novels out by now... they get better as they go, as Bendis takes over for Millar on writing chores.

Astro City for a take on a more Silvery-Bronze Age supercity, but the beauty of this is that it is really modern in it's approach, as it focuses on a SETTING and not on specific characters. It is ideal for getting the feel of how to create a sense of place for a super campaign.

Bloodhound by DC, for the best "Dark Champions in a Champions world" type of comic.

Get some early Nightwing graphic novels... the Chuck Dixon/Scott McDaniel collections, for great Dark Champs/crime fighting supers with heart.

For high level stuff... the Warren Ellis Stormwatch series (that eventually became the Authority.) Take the idea of a superteam that challenges the status quo. Very dark and grim, but with great characters and realistic heroic mindsets.

Enjoy.

[nexus]

The first 12 or so issues of The Authority
Supreme Power
The Ultimates 1 and 2
Ultimate X men

Those would be my reccomendations.

[Killer Shrike]

If you want to get a quick Comic Book style injection, Astro City should do it quick and fast.

I recommend Tarnished Angels personally; I consider it to be at the epitome of the medium.

Kingdom Come is great as well, Marvels is terriffic, and the first of the Marvel X series has a lot of good stuff (the follow ons were not so good IMO)

Ultimate Spiderman has some fun stuff in it too.

[OddHat]

The discussion could be endless. ;)

For myself, the key difference between a (Super) Heroic world and a hard SF or Fantasy world is in the significance of the characters, and in their goals. Corum of Amber may be a hero in a certain light, and he has incredible powers. However, I don’t think of him as a (Super) Hero. His goal isn’t to Save the Multiverse (though in a way he ends up doing just that), it’s to find his memories, then get revenge, then defeat his foes.

For a Corum style character or campaign to be (Super) Heroic, the goals of the characters would have to extend beyond self-discovery, profit, or revenge. Heroes strive to protect others and make the world a better place. Jon Shannow and Druss the Legend are Heroes. They could be Iron Age Super Heroes if adapted and re-imagined to fit the CU. Leeloo from the 5th Element is a Hero and could easily be a Super Hero. A character whom only cares about himself or herself and his or her loved ones may be an interesting NPC, and may act heroically, but in the end is not a Hero or Super Hero no matter his or her talents or powers.

IMO, as always.

As to reading materials for a well done Iron Age Champions campaign, here’s a very incomplete list:
Mick Farren’s “Darklost”.

George R.R. Martin’s Wildcards, Books I-IV.

“Astro City”, all the TPBs. I resisted getting these for a long time, but I’m sold now. They are excellent. Semi-realistic Silver Age if there is such a thing.

Warren Ellis’ “Planetary”. Best comics I’ve read in a long time.

Warren Ellis’ “Stormwatch” and “Authority”. I hated “Authority” after Ellis left, but he did great things in these titles.

[OddHat]

If you want to get a quick Comic Book style injection, Astro City should do it quick and fast.

I recommend Tarnished Angels personally; I consider it to be at the epitome of the medium.

Kingdom Come is great as well, Marvels is terriffic...

Strongly agreed on all of this.

[Sketchpad]

I would recommend:
Astonishing X-Men (First 5 are in trade now)
The Early Nightwing Trades
Kingdom Come
Astro City
The current Thunderbolts series
New Teen Titans: Judas Contract
The current Titans trades

[tracer]

Try Ultimat X-Men for what I would consider "soft" Iron Age.
But UltimateX-Men is still being published, isn't it?

According to this article (http://www.fortunecity.com/tatooine/niven/142/opinion/opi33.html), the Iron Age ended, like, two whole Ages ago.

[John T]

Thanks to everyone for the responses thus far!

A follow-up question: What comic-age-neutral elements, as a player and/or as a GM (please state which), define the genre for you?

Thanks again!

John T

[John T]

But UltimateX-Men is still being published, isn't it?

According to this article (http://www.fortunecity.com/tatooine/niven/142/opinion/opi33.html), the Iron Age ended, like, two whole Ages ago.
Thanks for the link; pretty handy, even considering the author's use of personally-defined ages. Thought his effort to keep them mineral-themed was a bit forced, if logical.

John T

[Jhamin]

Thanks to everyone for the responses thus far!

A follow-up question: What comic-age-neutral elements, as a player and/or as a GM (please state which), define the genre for you?

Thanks again!

John T

For me, these are the easy ones:

-The characters are more powerful than all the normals they typically encounter. A super, good or bad, can wade through police/soldiers/thugs pretty easily. They may not be untouched at the end, but the outcome was never in doubt. There may be uber-commando teams that can match them, but those folks are not typical.
While Nick Fury or Batman may technically be normals, they work like supers.

-Lots of folks wear costumes. For whatever reason; uniform, team colors, patriotism, power armor, etc. If you see someone in a distinctive set of clothes, they are important.

-The characters have access to abilites not generally avalible to most people. Be it mutant powers, ultra-tech, psionics, extra-terrestrial origions, or whatever, the general public is not going to get access to this stuff during the course of the story.

-The heroes have a fair amount of individual drive and freedom of thought. A superhero who blindly follows orders is almost a contradiction in terms. Most are independent of any real supervision. The supers that do work for someone are never able to completely rely on the wisdom of their superiors. The almost always have to make all the final decisions about their actions themselves.

[OddHat]

Thanks to everyone for the responses thus far!

A follow-up question: What comic-age-neutral elements, as a player and/or as a GM (please state which), define the genre for you?

Thanks again!

John T


If talking very specifically about Super Heroes of any age:

1) Dedication to an ideal, goal, or set of ethical values beyond personal and group needs and aggrandizement. I know that I discussed this before, but it’s a core principle. The vigilante avenging the deaths of his family is not a Superhero, even with superhuman powers. He does not protect or serve an ideal, he seeks revenge. When a man has lost everything, yet still fights on to protect the weak against the evil strong, that man is a Hero.
2) Superpowers. Without superhuman abilities, they are not superheroes. Batman and Doc Savage type characters casually outperform Olympic athletes on a daily basis; they may be human, but they are still superheroes.
3) Competency when it counts. Even comically inept heroes will suddenly become competent when the story calls for it, and only the most dystopian story arcs feature heroes that absolutely fail on all levels. Stories that feature super powered protagonists who do get captured, dragged off to the comfort women camps, and irrevocably turned into whores (“The New Statesmen”, some of the later Wildcards stories) or villains (some iron age X-Men arcs) have stopped being about Superheroes at all. From a game point of view, do not put your players in no-win situations or utterly destroy their characters if you want it to feel like a Superhero story.

[zornwil]

Re conventions, fantastic events and gadgets, and true evil exists, IME even in a "realistic" super world, somewhere somebody is fantastically evil. Even in the Mysterymen, the most down-to-earth and comedic of super genre, we saw Frankenstein Casanova (what a great name!) plotting to destroy with his "fraculator". Even in every shades-of-grey book and campaign I've seen, there's always somebody indisputably evil to fight at SOME point.

John T, I think these days if you load yourself down with rented movies of the recent superhero films you'll get good ideas.

If you're not well-versed in supers, the Champions book is worth getting. There are also LOTS of plot seeds in Digital Hero, as Hermit's article on the Choir reminded me.

[RDU Neil]

But UltimateX-Men is still being published, isn't it?

According to this article (http://www.fortunecity.com/tatooine/niven/142/opinion/opi33.html), the Iron Age ended, like, two whole Ages ago.

Oh yeah... I just don't read it until it comes out in GN format, so I'm behind on the issues. No big deal for me... I've got 60 longboxes of comics... I'm trying to read less individual issues, and pick up stuff in GN, instead. Saves space and money.

I was basing "Iron Age" on how it is defined for Champions... and the Ultimate X-Men meet this. Distrust, secrecy, betrayal, hard edged violence, main characters dying... if this is Iron Age, then so is Ultimate X-Men. What I disagree with is that Iron Age indicates, mean-spirited, psychotic, death dealing protagonists who are amoral at best. That is not the Ultimate X-Men... instead, each character has their own unique take on things, life, resasons for doing what they do. Not always realistic (as when they stopped Rogue from shooting Sinister, which was just dumb...) but at least things are not absolute good vs. evil.

[Kristopher]

Things like superhero comic "Ages" should only be taken seriously if they're being talked about in the past, at least 5 years back. I always get a kick out of someone trying to talk about what Age we're in now -- the kind of kick you get from hearing someone make with the silly talk.

Once people really started talking about the Ages, the Ages suddenly started coming and going a lot faster.

And really, what are we on now, since we've used up gold, silver, bronze, and iron? Tin? Wood? Steel? Antimony? Brick? Before long, this is going to be like the silly anniversery thing with tissue paper and glass and crap.

[John T]

And really, what are we on now, since we've used up gold, silver, bronze, and iron? Tin? Wood? Steel? Antimony? Brick? Before long, this is going to be like the silly anniversery thing with tissue paper and glass and crap.
Yeah, THAT'S it, we're in the CRAP age of comics! :D
(no wonder I don't read 'em much anymore!)

John T

[Doug McCrae]

And really, what are we on now, since we've used up gold, silver, bronze, and iron?Still iron. I don't see any difference between the sensibilities of Dark Knight Returns and the Ultimate series. Just a quality gap.

[John T]

Re conventions, fantastic events and gadgets, and true evil exists, IME even in a "realistic" super world, somewhere somebody is fantastically evil. Even in the Mysterymen, the most down-to-earth and comedic of super genre, we saw Frankenstein Casanova (what a great name!) plotting to destroy with his "fraculator". Even in every shades-of-grey book and campaign I've seen, there's always somebody indisputably evil to fight at SOME point.
Most of my players ultimately decide that I am the true evil in the games I run... but you do have a good point! :D

John T, I think these days if you load yourself down with rented movies of the recent superhero films you'll get good ideas.
We have Spderman and X-Men (the first of two for each), and there are several others I'd like to get, as well; Spiderman 2, X-Men 2, Hulk (lots of Brick-y stuff going on there, despite its flaws). Some anime we have is also handy. Unfortunately, for the time being, lack of $$$ prevents us from indulging too much, a problem which has bearing on the last point. :(

If you're not well-versed in supers, the Champions book is worth getting. There are also LOTS of plot seeds in Digital Hero, as Hermit's article on the Choir reminded me.
So far I have Hero 5 (natch, but not ER yet), CU, MC, UMA and CKC. I also have the 4E book The Zodiac Conspiracy, which I've been updating to 5E as needed. Would like to get Champions and Viper (and all the rest, down the road), but that'll have to wait, along with a DH sub.

I look at what I have, and tell myself I have more than enough to work with, and yet...

I think my biggest problem is that I'm trying to come off of a 2+ year hiatus from GMing, following a 3-year, massively epic L5R campaign, and step back into a system (and setting) I've neither run nor played since '91. *chuckles* Yeah, I can see where I might be having difficulty. :stupid:

Thanks again to everyone here. Keep throwing bones; I'll keep hoarding them! One of these days, I might even have soup! :D

John T

[OddHat]

The New Circle thread has plot seeds for all of the New Circle characters and villains I posted; most of the other posters have included plot seeds as well. Even if you don't use the characters, you should be able to find some adventure ideas.

[Agent 13]

I'm late getting in recommendations, but I think DC's Starman had a good mix of flavors from different ages.