The Empyreans

[SAW]

We're making a couple of characters' backrounds tied in with the Empyreans. I only have found a little bit of infoon them in Champions Universe. I have looked in all the other books I own (I don't have all the books, I'm poor you see) and only found a small mention in Until:DOF. I have been unable to find any published characters that have Empyrean backround.

Are there any mentions or characters that I may have missed?

Any help would make happy (well, less sad, I'm poor remember).

SAW

[Lord Liaden]

Well, I can point you to a few sources, but as they require varying amounts of filthy lucre they may not brighten your day that much. :(

Perhaps the best option for the budget conscious would be Digital Hero #20, which features a writeup for Archon, the Empyreans' champion and a member of the Sentinels superteam. At $5.00 for a 64-page PDF chock full of cool stuff, it's good value. More expensive, especially considering what you specifically want, is Galactic Champions - the Champions 3000 superteam includes Thalya, another powerful Empyrean. The backgrounds of both these characters contain more details about their people, although it's not abundant.

If you can hang on until "early 2005," that's when the Champs supplement Hidden Lands is scheduled to be released, and that will feature a major section devoted to the Empyreans and their homeland.

I hope that brightened your day a smidge. :)

[OddHat]

While I agree with LL, and CU also has a little info, may I suggest just making it up? ;) After all, it is your game.

The Emperyans are kind of an homage to Marvel's Eternals with a few other bits thrown into the mix, and so just letting your comic-fan instincts go should work fine.

[Sketchpad]

A quick Q about the Empyreans that maybe Darren or Steve could answer ... in HL, will there be a package to play Empyreans? These guys are like the Eternals or Inhumans, right?

[Tman]

SAW thanks you for all assistance

Tman Cheif of Staff SAWstralia

[Steve Long]

in HL, will there be a package to play Empyreans

There will be information on how to create Empyrean characters.

[Sketchpad]

There will be information on how to create Empyrean characters.
Sweet! Thanks Steve :)

[Wanderer]

There will be information on how to create Empyrean characters.

Well, that helps pushing the book near the top of my Hero to-buy list. When is it to land in my eager hands ?

In the meanwhile, taking GC's Thalya as a becnhmark, is she average, below, or above average as an Empyrean ? What's the typical power level of Empyrean PCs? How justified and frequent are 750-1000-pts. Empyrean characters in the CU ? Are new Empyreans still being born ?

Empyrean characters are especially interesting in that their Immortality powers don't deactivate when the source of superpowers deactivates in
the CU's timeline, so they are the perfect choice for stories spanning multiple settings.

Taking Marvel's Eternals and Thalya as inspirations, I assume that a suit of brick abilities and energy projector powers (maybe a couple MPs for less experienced chars, VPPs for the more experienced or dedicated to combat/developing one's powers), plus Movement Powers and full Life Support would be a good assumption, plus one or two "trademark" powers that reflect the special interest/specialization of the char (like all Eternals have a suit of cosmic powers that are inborn to the race, plus each one has its special trick: Sersi Transforms, Makkari has Super-speed, etc), plus a widespread smattering of "Jack of All Trades" and Knowledge Skills showing the experience of millennia, maybe some Psych Lim showing either the ennui of eternity or the zest for life/dedication to a cause that keeps the character satisfied with immortality (like Thalya), plus some personal/race Hunted from old personal or race enemies (eg. in CU, Empyreans have Lemurians as race enemies, like Deviants for Eternals).

Empyreans in CU was a really nice touch for a fan of cosmic stories like me, thanks Hero writers.

[Metaphysician]

Well, Thalya *should* be a relatively *weak* Empyrean, as she was only a few hundred years old when the mana collapsed, and has been sans power longer than she had them. Granted, she's probably a little more powerful than she would have been in the 20th century, due to the higher overall mana tide, but still.

[Steve Long]

Well, that helps pushing the book near the top of my Hero to-buy list. When is it to land in my eager hands ?

It's in editing and development now. It'll go into layout when The Valdorian Age and Villainy Amok are done being laid out. So, probably sometime in March, but it all depends on various factors.

[Wanderer]

Now that I'm thinking about it more I'd say Empyreans are probably built on about 300 points so that PCs have the chance to play them without needing to exceed the 350 point starting limit.

Well, I hope those guidelines will take into account that not everyone likes to play at the Standard level. Moreover, I'd say that Empyreans look most natural at cosmic power levels or so and cosmic- or globally-oriented stories (alien invasions, world destroyers landing, and such fare), not keeping your city safe from super-powered bank robbers. Marvel's Eternals simply are not at the same tier with Spiderman and other Standard lik. They generally fit with guys like Avengers, Thor, Warlock, Silver Surfer.

[Wanderer]

Power levels are designed to work within the Champions Universe. If you want the characters more or less powerful it's up to the GM to make adjustments from the base character. Archon is the Empyrean champion in the 21st century CU and is a 650 point character. In a 750 point game the GM should adjust that character to 1,300+ points. It's not the campaign's job to make that adjustment, IMO.


I don't think Starfox can beat Spider-man. :)

On the other hand, most signature Eternals (Sersi, Ikaris, Gilgamesh, Thanos, Zuras, Thena) can trash Spiderman to a bloody pulp with both hands tied behind back. Starfox simply doesn't make for a good benchmark of martial values. Even a race of immortal cosmic-powered demigods may have its wimpy debauched failures (Volstagg, anyone ?)

On the overall, CU is a quite fine creation, but its single rather annoying weakness is the stubborn failure (with Galactic Champions as the single extremely welcome and overdue exception) of writers to allow decent setting space and coverage for all those superhuman solos and group characters that operate on a global, cosmic or interdimensional level and every decent comic book fan knows must exist. Where are the JLA, Avengers, Defenders, Fantastic Four, Authority, Warlock, Silver Surfer, Phoenix, Captain Marvels of the CU? We have some decent incarnations for the Dr. Doom, Magneto, Firelord, Ultron equivalents but their existence calls for their opposite number even more. Sending the Champions after the likes of Mechanon, Holocaust and Viperia is as pathetic as laughable.

A proper rendition of Eternals in Hero terms really calls for their average member to be set on 600-700, and their paragons on 1300-1500 points. If this causes them to be head and shoulders over the writers' pet signature group, so be it. It is a perfectly legitimate choice (though I'd have some rather serious reservations about deeming it the most representative choice for properly mirroring the "benchmark" of the genre) to set Spiderman as the ground level, as long as one does not pretend to pigeonhole Thor and Dr. Strange in it.

[Wanderer]

Well Archon is Ikaris. :) As I have seen Captain America outfight Hercules I will assume Spider-man can do the same to Gilgamesh. :) I'll grant you Thanos and Zura. There's nothing special about Thena and Sersi is only above average, IMO.

Um, yeah, and I may be able to survive a terminal-velocity fall unscathed -once in my lifetime. Once-in-a-blue moon occurencies illustrating an author to show off its creative muscles by telling an utterly unplausible outcome to a wholly unbalanced confrontation. Daredevil once was drawn saving Earth by defeating an Elder of the Universe with common sleight of the hand at tossing a disk. When I see Cap drawn consistently defeating a whole string of adversaries at Hercules' power level, under a variety of circumstances, in different stories with different authors (possibly not only in Cap stories), then I'll take it at proof they are at the same tier. I'm pretty sure a talented author might come out with a story where Spiderman thrashes Galactus. I expect him to be either infused with cosmic power by some plot device, be wielding the Cosmic Cube, or I chalk it with stories of untrained average amateur thrashing World Champ. Sure, it might happen once, if the professional had a really bad day. But what it proves ?

After Zuras was destroyed by Celestials, his power was ultimately infused in Thena - and Zuras once fought Zeus to a standstill (as Thanos did with Odin).


Champions is, for the most part, a group game. Villains need to be designed to fight entire teams of heroes most of the time, not singular heroes. And, as I also said in another thread, gaming is unlike comics in that players progress in games in a way they do not in comics. Starting level characters work their way up to fighting Viperia. They do not do it on their first outing. Champions villains are design in an escalating scale so that there are always tougher opponents to fight as play continues. Any team which has a member who can easily defeat Viperia will find little to challenge it in the CU.

Superhuman teams are best geared to fight either groups of the same power level or single villains of the next tier. Sending them after solo villains three or four tiers above, like Viperia, is calling for massacre if the villain is RP reflecting the average or better intelligence 98+% of them have. They are the job and responsiblity of other, more balanced teams, which are kept conspicously out of the limelight. The underdog unexpectedly winning is nice once in a while, but as a regular occurrence it stretches credibility till it showers blood. Morevoer, who says hero groups vs. one more powerful master villain alone is the ceiling ? Look at the plots of global or cosmic level comics: you have master villains plus an army of minions or villain sidekicks, alien or dimensional army invading, evil deities or space gods threatening Earth, Galaxy or Reality. If you look at appropriate comic sources (JLA/Avengers/FF/Marvel cosmic series/Authority), you have any of these occurring almost all the time, with cosmic heroes acting as an ongoing shield of unaware mankind. CU looks rather dull in that these angles of superherodom are given almost no coverage - yeah, some bits are covered in backhistory, but almost all the focus is on your friendly neighborhood (barely)superpowered vigilance group keeping banks and city safe. What a bore ! Or altewrnatively, you have artwork with mandatory Champions (again, what a bore! have all other superheroes perished in Detroit ?) pitted vs Dr. Destroyer, which gives fits of laughter.



I don't think "pet signature group" has anything to do with it. I think the CU has a design philosophy that looks up from the common man not from the starting level characters. You see a 650 point Archon as being weak. I see him as being powerful. Some people's games are just set in more powerful CU universes. Those GMs need to adjust the power levels of all the characters throughout the books.

If you want to properly cover all angles of the superhero material, you have to keep the various power levels distinct and reasonably close to some external benchmarks (e.g. for high-powered superheroics, one might be "superhumans that only have to worry about other superhumans"). If you stretch things too much above or below the archetype, believability gets annoyingly thin. Spiderman-clone thrashing Kree spaceship or tank division looks as ridiculous as Thor-clone having to worry about Trapster or a beat cop. Yet, to cover all of the medium, you need both of them in the setting. You may focus, as CU mainly does, on Spiderman clones and city-level stories, but it annoys the ones that wish a bit of spotlight on the really larger-than-life stuff.

Moreover, I'm not even persuaded that all of this focus on starting from street-level stuff is really the angle most players want covered. I strongly suspect that are as many, if not more, groups that prefer starting RP JLA/Avengers clones from the get-go ;)

Again, it may be this excessive and bitter rant :P is just from the utterly biased perspective of a fan that always plundered Thor, FF, Dr. Strange and Silver Surfer letting Spiderman and Daredevil rot unlamented on the rack, and CU may in time grow and expand till upper tiers get as much limelight as lower ones: Galactic Champions was an extremely welcome addition, as they were Mystic World (but artwork with Champions doing the dimensional mystery tour. Really. Please) and some parts of Ultimate Brick, and I have some hopes for Hidden Lands. And maybe Champions worldwide will show some of the heroes that do the *real* work at keeping Earth safe from global menaces. I hope. We have more than enough friendly neighborhood vigilantes and city protectors.

As long as I am spared Champions vs. Tyrannon and Kings of Edom teamup. :weep:

[Doctor Agenda]

We're making a couple of characters' backrounds tied in with the Empyreans. I only have found a little bit of infoon them in Champions Universe. I have looked in all the other books I own (I don't have all the books, I'm poor you see) and only found a small mention in Until:DOF. I have been unable to find any published characters that have Empyrean backround.

Are there any mentions or characters that I may have missed?

Any help would make happy (well, less sad, I'm poor remember).

SAW

I couldn't wait for HL, so I made my own Empyrean character with Thalya as inspiration (although she doesn't seem to have the mental powers ascribed to Empyreans elsewhere, even though she is built on 700 points). Originally the basis for the concept was based on the problem of cramming a character like Thalya into a 350-point package, AND have psionic abilities. The character turned out to be more interesting with lots of plot hooks because of that challenge:

Zantar was a Silent Empyrean. In the late 1940s his psychic explorations led him to the technique of exploring the lives of others by switching his mind with theirs. He would live their lives for a time while they slumbered in his entranced Empyrean body.

Benjamin Franklin Davis was born in 1930, near Detroit, the youngest of four brothers. In 1949 he had a job driving a delivery truck and a new bride, Sarah, with a baby on the way. That's when Zantar usurped his life. Unlike Zantar's other subjects, who merely lost a day or two of memory, Ben lost everything. Zantar carelessly got his fragile human body killed in traffic and Ben spent the next fifty years trapped in Zantar's alien dreamscape. Eventually, as he developed his will and a rapport with his new Empyrean brain and body, he awoke to find himself surrounded by strangely garbed and still figures in a vast hall. He instinctively used his powers to flee, and found himself in orbit, gazing at the world below him. Again, clumsily and instinctively, Ben tried to go home, crashing into the earth and unconsciousness near Millenium City.

Fifty years out of his time, in a body he doesn't recognize, Ben doesn't know what has happened to him, what he is, or how he got here. Sometimes he isn't even sure he is awake. His powers very erratic at first, he managed to escape the Viper squad that came after him hoping to find a crashed satellite or piece of alien tech. Homeless at first he haunts libraries trying to find out what has happened to the world and his family. When he finds them he doesn't know what he'll do...it's been fifty years and he doesn't even resemble his old photos. He does understand the likes of Viper, though. He won't stand by while people are hurt, and knows the kind of responsibility power like his carries. Ben chooses to call himself Optimus, after his favorite hero in the Defenders of Justice when he was a kid. Right now, that's the only life he's got.

Optimus II

Value Char Cost Characteristics: 155 Abilities: 195 Total: 350
50 Str 40 Base: 200 Disadvantages: 150
23 Dex 39 Points Disadvantages
25 Con 30 25 DNPC 8-, Group of 4, Daughter Hannah and her
12 Bod 04 family (for now he just watches over them)
13 Int 03 10 Hunted 8- by Lemurians (why, he doesn't know)
17 Ego 14 15 Hunted 8- by VIPER
15 Pre 05 05 Hunted (Watched) 8- by Empyreans (what's up
16 Com 03 with Zantar?)
10 PD 00 10 Phys Lim: American teenager in an Empyrean
5 ED 00 body with no memory of 1949-2004
5 Spd 17 15 Psych Lim: Code of Heroism (emulating Optimus I)
15 Rec 00 15 Psych Lim: Protective of Innocents
50 End 00 10 Psych Lim: Searching for His Place in the World
50 Stn 00 10 Psych Lim: Won't Murder
15 Soc Lim: Secret (Human in the Empyrean body of
of Zantar--so secret even he doesn't know it yet)
Cost Ability 20 Vuln: x1 1/2 Body and Stun from Magic
20 Elemental Control-Empyrean Durability
25 a) Armor: 15 rPD, 15 rED-Empyrean Toughness
30 b) Life Support: Total-Empyrean Physiology
33 Multipower, 50 Active Points: Empyrean Disciplines, all x2 End (-1/2)
3u EB: 10d6 Bioenergy Blast at 10 End
3u Ego Attack: 5d6 Mental Bolt at 10 End
3u Mental Illusions: 10d6 Dreamsend at 10 End
3u Telepathy: 10d6 Thought Link at 10 End
3u Telekinesis: 25 Str Mind Over Matter with Fine Manipulation at 10 End
3u Teleport: 10" Mind Over Location, x2 Mass, Megascale at 1"=1000 km
(+1) at 10 End
3u Transform: Major 1 1/2d6 Molecular Rearrangement to Anything (+1) at
10 End
25 Multipower, 25 Active Points: Empyrean Flight
2u Flight: 10", x4 NC at 2 End
2u Flight: 6", Megascale at 1"=100 km, can scale down to 1"=1 km (+1)
2 End
5 Flash Defense: 5 points vs sight-Empyrean Eyes
7 Healing: 1 Bod per Turn Regeneration-Empyrean Regeneration
10 Knockback Resistance: -5" Knockback-Empyrean Toughness
5 Lack of Weakness: -5 for Resistant Defenses-Empyrean Toughness
9 Perception: +3 (15-)-Empyrean Senses
1 KS: 1940s Trivia, 8-

Although not reflected in his disadvantages, Optimus II was very erratic in combat at first. He doesn't know his own strength or how best to use his powers (or even what all of them are). It was several adventures before he could function as written. He takes an old-fashioned approach to crimefighting, going on patrols and helping out wherever he sees a need, including rescuing cats.

[Doctor Agenda]

I promise, those stats were spaced out when I wrote them. So much for my computer-savvy. :)

[Jeff T.]

Spider-Man has defeated many very powerful foes one-on-one in his time (such as Firelord, a herald of Galactus). IMO his power level is highly underestimated. His respect for life forces him to hold back in nearly every fight, plus his gobs of humility generally keep him in the frame of mind that he's not a major league hero.

When he's really pissed off or pushed to the edge, he becomes incredibly dangerous and basically unhittable.

PS: He also sticks to walls - the single most powerful ability in comics history. :D

[MikeyMitchell]

PS: He also sticks to walls - the single most powerful ability in comics history. :D

I don't know about most powerful, but it IS awfully useful. I never played a character with Clinging before the current campaign, and, boy, does it come in handy in a LOT of situations!<BR><BR>

[Jeff T.]

I don't know about most powerful, but it IS awfully useful. I never played a character with Clinging before the current campaign, and, boy, does it come in handy in a LOT of situations!



Well, in all seriousness, Clinging gives one the ability to constantly change perspectives in a fight. Realistically, I think someone with this ability could be really confusing to fight.

[Champsguy]

Of course Spidey is nasty. Let's look at it:

He's a mid-tier brick (a 45 does not represent him when he stops holding back--he's held up a collapsing apartment building before).
He's got near-speedster level reflexes and has 100 mph combat movement.
He's a gadgeteer.
He's got a danger sense that means he's never surprised or caught off-guard.
He's effectively got the ability to fly if he's in a city environment.
He's almost unhittable.
He's got an entangle capable of holding high-level bricks for a short while.

I'd say he's really powerful. He's just not overwhelming in any one area.

[MikeyMitchell]

Of course Spidey is nasty. Let's look at it:

He's a mid-tier brick (a 45 does not represent him when he stops holding back--he's held up a collapsing apartment building before).
He's got near-speedster level reflexes and has 100 mph combat movement.
He's a gadgeteer.
He's got a danger sense that means he's never surprised or caught off-guard.
He's effectively got the ability to fly if he's in a city environment.
He's almost unhittable.
He's got an entangle capable of holding high-level bricks for a short while.

I'd say he's really powerful. He's just not overwhelming in any one area.

Let's hear it for really powerful, really flexible characters! Which is my general design goal, but those darn point limits keep getting in the way! 350 points only go so far... :)

(Do you think we're sufficiently derailed this thread?) ;)<BR><BR>

[sbarron]

Of course Spidey is nasty. Let's look at it:

He's a mid-tier brick (a 45 does not represent him when he stops holding back--he's held up a collapsing apartment building before).
He's got near-speedster level reflexes and has 100 mph combat movement.
He's a gadgeteer.
He's got a danger sense that means he's never surprised or caught off-guard.
He's effectively got the ability to fly if he's in a city environment.
He's almost unhittable.
He's got an entangle capable of holding high-level bricks for a short while.

I'd say he's really powerful. He's just not overwhelming in any one area.Not to mention, for only being a high school science wiz he does really well in conversations with BIG, BIG brains (e.g. Reed Richards and Bruce Banner).

[Doctor Agenda]

Yeah, this is supposed to be all about me! Unless I've wandered off the All Hail Doctor Agenda thread again.

[Doctor Agenda]

OK, I paid my shekels for DI #20, and Archon is cool and all, but am I the only one who remembers that Empyreans are supposed to have 'vast mental powers'. The UNTIL sourcebook mentions a psychic on their staff who is actually an undercover Empyrean. The official writeups: strong, tough, flies, shoots bio-energy bolts. I hope the Hidden Lands has more on Empyrean psionics.

[Doctor Agenda]

The actual quote is "vast and varying mental abilities." This can also apply to their knowledge and ability to excel at one particular thing. You need to think of them in the same way you would the Eternals. They are not all mentalists; in fact most seem not to be.

True, as far as I can tell, they only have one mentalist in the bunch, and she doesn't have a write-up (although apparently all the Silent Empyreans can astral project to higher realms). Let's be honest here: Archon and Thalya's mental abilities aren't even particularly impressive given that they're centuries old. I would hope that anyone could become very proficient at their hobbies given that kind of time. Their physical attributes, which are described as merely impressive, are in comparison, vast. Varying, not so much, physically Thalya and Archon are obviously similar in their abilities.

Given the description of the UNTIL mentalist, it really seems like the creators have since forgotten that Empyreans are supposed to have 'vast and varying mental abilities'. Isabelli Moroni on the other hand has varying psionic powers and it is implied that were she to cut loose, vast might be the right adjective.
Her psychic powers are described as manifestations of her Empyrean heritage. The powers UNTIL knows she has are 5d6 Telepathy, luck (or maybe invisible telekeinesis), Danger Sense, and Lightsleep (if she really sleeps at all...Thalya doesn't need to, Archon does).

Also, all Eternals have psionic abilities (plus cosmic power, body control, and 'impressive physical attributes). With varying levels of development, granted. Still, some telepathy here, some mental illusions there, making people forget, using telekinesis to increase the amount of weight they can lift...all pretty standard Eternal tricks.

Maybe Empyreans develop one area of expertise to an extreme at the expense of psionic abilities?

[Wanderer]

According to Hidden Lands, All Empyreans have a suite of basic powers (improved all-around Characteristics and Defense Powers, regeneration, Flight, Life Support, some talents), plus there are several packages that represent "typical" abilities (almost all Empyrean characters will generally have one or more of them): brick powers, mental powers, energy projection, telekinesis, matter transmutation, greater movement powers. In addition, individual empyreans will develop "signature" abilities according to personal interests: thius may represent greater development of typical powers packages, or something else, such as shapeshifting or speedster powers.

E.g. warrior Empyreans, such as Archon and Thalya, might be built with basic powers, brick and energy projection powers, and maybe telekinetic or speedster powers.

[Doctor Agenda]

THAT sounds pretty cool, Wanderer, thanks for the scoop!

[Doctor Agenda]

I found one other Empyrean-related character: The Commandant of the Viper Training camp is half Empyrean, with characteristics around human max and telepathy that includes the ability to alter memories.