Speaking of Shapeshift

[Dust Raven]

Funny there should be an interesting Shapeshift/Multiform thread already on the board when I have this question, but I figure I shouldn't derail that thread.

Basically, how would you build a Shape Shift Power that altered the shape, but not the color/other appearance of a character? I'm thinking of the Beast Boy effect, where it doesn't matter what animal he turns into, it has green skin and black hair and his eyes.

Would this be a limit on the Shapeshift, or just buying just Sight Group or Touch Group and not the other?

[Silbeg]

Wouldn't that just be a distinctive features on the character:

15 Distinctive Features: Green
Not Concealable, noticed by common senses.

Then, since it is not concealable, his shapeshift wouldn't be able to disguise the color (I would rule).

[Mentor]

Funny there should be an interesting Shapeshift/Multiform thread already on the board when I have this question, but I figure I shouldn't derail that thread.

Basically, how would you build a Shape Shift Power that altered the shape, but not the color/other appearance of a character? I'm thinking of the Beast Boy effect, where it doesn't matter what animal he turns into, it has green skin and black hair and his eyes.

Would this be a limit on the Shapeshift, or just buying just Sight Group or Touch Group and not the other?
Personally, I would apply a -1/2 limitation, depending on your campaign. Not only is disguise eliminated ("That green gorilla is obviously Beast Boy!") it might even create bigger problems for the PC. ("All officers be on the look out for Beast Boy, as a green gorilla was reported in the vicinty of the nosuchthingium robbery".)

[TaxiMan]

I've used SS: Touch Group to change physical shape only. The sight group "appearance" isn't modified, so you still look like Plastic Man, for example.

Beast Boy does a better job (you can't tell he's BB, but the shape is always colored green), so I'd ask for SS: Sight Group, Limited Power "Always Green" (-1).

[Lord Liaden]

I've used SS: Touch Group to change physical shape only. The sight group "appearance" isn't modified, so you still look like Plastic Man, for example.

Beast Boy does a better job (you can't tell he's BB, but the shape is always colored green), so I'd ask for SS: Sight Group, Limited Power "Always Green" (-1).

This sounds about right to me as well. The orthodox rules answer to altering your shape without otherwise changing colors, textures, relationship of facial features etc. is SS: Touch Group. Beast Boy/Changeling always looks like the creature he changes into other than coloration, unless the natural creature itself is green. Partly for that last reason I think I'd peg the "Always Green" Lim at -1/2, but it's a judgement call.

[SleepyDrug]

I'd go with the -1/2.....of course, i think the orthodox rules that Shape Shift requires buying senses is silly.

[Kristopher]

Very silly.

[Killer Shrike]

This is a classic case of not concealable Distinctive Features.

And I think that the 5e Shapeshift rules are not silly, but should be combined with Images, Invisibility, and Darkness as a single customziable "Sense Affecting" power. But thats covered in another thread.

[Killer Shrike]

Also, I would argue that the proper way to implement Beast Boy is via either a Multiform or a VPP, not Shapeshift.

[Zeropoint]

I'd go with Multiform, given that he actually gains the abilities of the form that he shifts into: if he turns into a gorilla, he's stronger, if he turns into an eagle, he can fly. Shapeshift can't do that for you.

Zeropoint

[Bengal]

To me, "always green" sound smore like a distinctive feature
than a power lim. Both ideas seem within the rules and technically correct.

If two players wished to play the same concept (say, a Beast Boy and a Plastic Man), I would rule that they would both have to agree on how to limit the power/disadvantage their characters.


As an aside, Grant Morrison (pfft) established that Plastic Man can modify his coloration, even to the point of masquerading as someone else. He even fooled the Injustice Gang into believing he was the Joker for an extended period of time.

[zornwil]

It could even just be Stretching if the assumption of shape is nothing more than simple body alteration with no other game effect.

[Kristopher]

This is a classic case of not concealable Distinctive Features.

And I think that the 5e Shapeshift rules are not silly, but should be combined with Images, Invisibility, and Darkness as a single customziable "Sense Affecting" power. But thats covered in another thread.


It's the construction of Shape Shift as a sense affecting power that's all wrong, though.

[Dust Raven]

Also, I would argue that the proper way to implement Beast Boy is via either a Multiform or a VPP, not Shapeshift.
Actually, I've gotten the concept down as Shapeshift with a VPP for simulating the abilities of the shape (althrough in Beast Boy's case, the shape might simply be the SFX of the VPP abilities, which is a perfectly valid method of doing that, assuming his shapes actually granted the character abilities).

A related question... kinda.

Speaking of VPP for Shapeshift. Say we have a character that isn't limited by color/texture and actually assumed a completely different form that doesn't look a thing like his natural form, and can gain abilities from having that form (bird form grants Flight, a metal form grants Armor, etc.). Now say I'm writing him up using a VPP for those various abilities.

If is fair to put the Linked (to Shape Shift) Limitation on the VPP (at the -1/4 value)? Technically, its the right thing to do, since if the Shape Shift goes away or isn't used, the VPP can't be used at all. On the other and, all the Powers in the VPP automatically get a -1/4 Limitation on them. I'm currently leaning toward allowing it, but though I'd get everyone's opinion first.

[zornwil]

I would, because so long as it is legitimately non-functional if the Shape Shift goes down, you are reasonably stuck. We have a character with this exact same construct in my game, I missed you wanted to emulate the abilities of things you shaped as (sorry 'bout that) earlier. I don't have a problem with his dependency on Shape Shift, particularly as in freezing weather he can't Shape Shift and it shuts down his ability to shift anything and in general lose some power (it's a bit differently constructed but seems to work well).

[zornwil]

PS - and I think so long as it's clear the VPP depends on the Shape Shift (and it usually is with these characters) the Lim is okay as it will get used.

[Killer Shrike]

It's the construction of Shape Shift as a sense affecting power that's all wrong, though.
Really? What do you think it does currently aside from deceive senses?

[Killer Shrike]

Actually, I've gotten the concept down as Shapeshift with a VPP for simulating the abilities of the shape (althrough in Beast Boy's case, the shape might simply be the SFX of the VPP abilities, which is a perfectly valid method of doing that, assuming his shapes actually granted the character abilities).

A related question... kinda.

Speaking of VPP for Shapeshift. Say we have a character that isn't limited by color/texture and actually assumed a completely different form that doesn't look a thing like his natural form, and can gain abilities from having that form (bird form grants Flight, a metal form grants Armor, etc.). Now say I'm writing him up using a VPP for those various abilities.

If is fair to put the Linked (to Shape Shift) Limitation on the VPP (at the -1/4 value)? Technically, its the right thing to do, since if the Shape Shift goes away or isn't used, the VPP can't be used at all. On the other and, all the Powers in the VPP automatically get a -1/4 Limitation on them. I'm currently leaning toward allowing it, but though I'd get everyone's opinion first.


You dont need Shapeshift for that at all. Read the "Activation of Powers" section of the rulebook.

[zornwil]

Really? What do you think it does currently aside from deceive senses?
There's been a long thread on this recently at http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23737&highlight=shapeshift

Essentially, it doesn't merely deceive senses but may alter the physical form, which has consequences beyond sensory, which is a fundamental part of the discussion, without getting any deeper than that, as the thread does.

[zornwil]

You dont need Shapeshift for that at all. Read the "Activation of Powers" section of the rulebook.
I'm guessing he wants to actually have the benefits of shapechanging in and of itself, though, and he doesn't want his VPP to work unless he can change shapes. But you raise a good point if those aren't all the desired effects.

[Derek Hiemforth]

And I think that the 5e Shapeshift rules are not sillyI agree. I think folks get too hung up on the idea of Shape Shift somehow equalling "Shape Change" from AD&D or something...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Also, I would argue that the proper way to implement Beast Boy is via either a Multiform or a VPP, not Shapeshift.There really ought to be some kind of Advantage (or something) you can apply to Multiform that allows you to take any form within a certain scope of forms. (Any animal form, any elemental form, etc.) The cost would be based on the breadth of possible forms.

As it stands, I think it's needlessly complex and overly expensive in the HERO System to build characters who can assume a wide variety of forms.

[Killer Shrike]

There's been a long thread on this recently at http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23737&highlight=shapeshift

Essentially, it doesn't merely deceive senses but may alter the physical form, which has consequences beyond sensory, which is a fundamental part of the discussion, without getting any deeper than that, as the thread does.

Eh, there has been discussion on it here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9281&page=6&pp=20&highlight=shapeshift

and my original pass on it started here:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=454256&postcount=20

on this thread:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22255&highlight=shapeshift



Currently, the way Shapeshift is designed it functions like a Sense Affecting power. IMO it could be combined with Darkness, Invis, and Images into a single Sense Affecting Power.

[Killer Shrike]

I'm guessing he wants to actually have the benefits of shapechanging in and of itself, though, and he doesn't want his VPP to work unless he can change shapes. But you raise a good point if those aren't all the desired effects.

Activation of Powers covers changing appearance without the need for Shapeshift.

Shapeshift is for characters that want to deceive the senses of others. It's a deception power.

In the Animal Form Guy case, if you use your VPP to gain STR, Clinging, and some Damage Resistance and call that your "Ape Form", then Activation of Powers allows you to look like an Ape if you want. Just take a -1/2 Limited Power Selection Lim* on the VPP's Control Cost "Powers Appropriate To Animal Form Only".


* If the character can assume mythical or made up animal forms, I'd knock it down to -1/4.

[Killer Shrike]

There really ought to be some kind of Advantage (or something) you can apply to Multiform that allows you to take any form within a certain scope of forms. (Any animal form, any elemental form, etc.) The cost would be based on the breadth of possible forms.

As it stands, I think it's needlessly complex and overly expensive in the HERO System to build characters who can assume a wide variety of forms.

A GM could allow a flat modifier by form type I suppose; but that basically becomes the same as a VPP of Multiforms.

[zornwil]

Activation of Powers covers changing appearance without the need for Shapeshift.

Shapeshift is for characters that want to deceive the senses of others. It's a deception power.

In the Animal Form Guy case, if you use your VPP to gain STR, Clinging, and some Damage Resistance and call that your "Ape Form", then Activation of Powers allows you to look like an Ape if you want. Just take a -1/2 Limited Power Selection Lim* on the VPP's Control Cost "Powers Appropriate To Animal Form Only".


* If the character can assume mythical or made up animal forms, I'd knock it down to -1/4.
Yeah, but I'm assuming he wants to deceive the senses of others as well as be able to use the power independent of the pool, but he'll have to answer that authoritatively.

I'm aware you've had involvement there, as well as this thread is predated by others, just referring to the one that was the most recent concentrating on the topic at great length. it sounded like you wanted to make more points in response to Kristopher and I was hoping you would both take it there if you really wanted to rehash that.

[Dust Raven]

Activation of Powers covers changing appearance without the need for Shapeshift.

Shapeshift is for characters that want to deceive the senses of others. It's a deception power.

In the Animal Form Guy case, if you use your VPP to gain STR, Clinging, and some Damage Resistance and call that your "Ape Form", then Activation of Powers allows you to look like an Ape if you want. Just take a -1/2 Limited Power Selection Lim* on the VPP's Control Cost "Powers Appropriate To Animal Form Only".


* If the character can assume mythical or made up animal forms, I'd knock it down to -1/4.
In the case of the character I'm making, I'd disagree here. Shape Shift allows for much more flexibility in shape changing, which is what this character needs. If I didn't use Shape Shifting, I'd have to apply Variable SFX to all of his Powers in the VPP (to make it legal in my opinion) so that if his Armor can be metal skin, or turning into a mail box, or turning into a brick wall, and his Flight can be growing wings, turning into a raven, turning into a falcon, or turning into a dragonfly. I don't think a VPP along can do this all by itself.

[Killer Shrike]

Yeah, but I'm assuming he wants to deceive the senses of others as well as be able to use the power independent of the pool, but he'll have to answer that authoritatively.
Well, in Animal Boy's case, he doesnt really deceive anyone -- a green Ape is probably him, and people that have seen him change shape even once get that pretty quickly.

Characters that can both assume a form to gain abilities, and also change shape just to fool people are no problem; instead of taking an animal based lim on the control cost of the "Shapechange" VPP, just take a Limited Power "Form Change Abilities Only" -1/4. Shapeshift would certainly be allowed in such a VPP. When the character just wants to maquerade as something else but doesnt want any powers while doing it just activates SS in their VPP.

A character with Shapeshift paid for outright and a VPP for shape based abilities is also viable, although the point of that would be to activate "Ape Powers" or whatever, while Shapeshifting to look like a Donkey, or that dude over there. It's largely redundant and silly.

In comics parlance, Mystique = Shape Shift; Animal Boy = either a VPP or a Multiform.

[Derek Hiemforth]

In the case of the character I'm making, I'd disagree here. Shape Shift allows for much more flexibility in shape changing, which is what this character needs. If I didn't use Shape Shifting, I'd have to apply Variable SFX to all of his Powers in the VPP (to make it legal in my opinion) so that if his Armor can be metal skin, or turning into a mail box, or turning into a brick wall, and his Flight can be growing wings, turning into a raven, turning into a falcon, or turning into a dragonfly. I don't think a VPP along can do this all by itself.Well, two points:

1. Yes, a VPP can be used for different SFX without applying Variable SFX to everything. (For example, a mage can cast a fire spell and a lightning spell with his VPP, even though they're both Energy Blasts, without buying VSFX on them.)

2. Shape Shift doesn't affect the SFX of your other Powers in any way, regardless. In other words, if you had Flight without VSFX, simply having Shape Shift wouldn't automatically give it VSFX.

[Killer Shrike]

In the case of the character I'm making, I'd disagree here. Shape Shift allows for much more flexibility in shape changing, which is what this character needs. If I didn't use Shape Shifting, I'd have to apply Variable SFX to all of his Powers in the VPP (to make it legal in my opinion) so that if his Armor can be metal skin, or turning into a mail box, or turning into a brick wall, and his Flight can be growing wings, turning into a raven, turning into a falcon, or turning into a dragonfly. I don't think a VPP along can do this all by itself.
Of course a VPP can do all of that. You can buy your flight any way you like, or your Armor, or whatever else. Lacking a limitation on it, it really doesnt matter whatsoever -- it's wide open. Thats the nature of a VPP.

If you apply a Lim to the Control Cost you reduce your options, but a "Animal Forms Only" VPP would only require that the Powers you take in the VPP are appropriate to Animal Forms assumed.

Thus if you change into "Bird" form, you can only have abilities in the VPP appropriate to a bird -- HKA for beak and talons, enhanced vision, and restrainable flight. Activation of Powers covers the bird-like appearance. Your good.

Next phase you switch to Dog form which is defined as a combination of enhanced smell and hearing, some running, and a HKA bite.

etc etc etc.

If you want a generic form changer more like Apocalypse, basically turn into whatever form is useful, just define the Limited Power Lim differently as "Form Change Related Abilities Only", -1/4. Thus if you change yourself into metal one phase (Armor), and into Water the next (limited Desolid), and Wood the third Phase (Armor and some buoyancy based swimming) youre fine.

[zornwil]

Well, in Animal Boy's case, he doesnt really deceive anyone -- a green Ape is probably him, and people that have seen him change shape even once get that pretty quickly.

Characters that can both assume a form to gain abilities, and also change shape just to fool people are no problem; instead of taking an animal based lim on the control cost of the "Shapechange" VPP, just take a Limited Power "Form Change Abilities Only" -1/4. Shapeshift would certainly be allowed in such a VPP. When the character just wants to maquerade as something else but doesnt want any powers while doing it just activates SS in their VPP.

A character with Shapeshift paid for outright and a VPP for shape based abilities is also viable, although the point of that would be to activate "Ape Powers" or whatever, while Shapeshifting to look like a Donkey, or that dude over there. It's largely redundant and silly.

In comics parlance, Mystique = Shape Shift; Animal Boy = either a VPP or a Multiform.
Shrug, if "Animal Boy" is not recognizable as such in his various forms, I'm going to say he's shifted shape. If he's recognizable, I agree.

[zornwil]

Of course a VPP can do all of that. You can buy your flight any way you like, or your Armor, or whatever else. Lacking a limitation on it, it really doesnt matter whatsoever -- it's wide open. Thats the nature of a VPP.

If you apply a Lim to the Control Cost you reduce your options, but a "Animal Forms Only" VPP would only require that the Powers you take in the VPP are appropriate to Animal Forms assumed.

Thus if you change into "Bird" form, you can only have abilities in the VPP appropriate to a bird -- HKA for beak and talons, enhanced vision, and restrainable flight. Activation of Powers covers the bird-like appearance. Your good.

Next phase you switch to Dog form which is defined as a combination of enhanced smell and hearing, some running, and a HKA bite.

etc etc etc.

If you want a generic form changer more like Apocalypse, basically turn into whatever form is useful, just define the Limited Power Lim differently as "Form Change Related Abilities Only", -1/4. Thus if you change yourself into metal one phase (Armor), and into Water the next (limited Desolid), and Wood the third Phase (Armor and some buoyancy based swimming) youre fine.
Depends on the extent, but it may be verging on an abuse with what Multiform and/or Shape Shift are designed for, and one is not supposed to use one power to do what another one already properly does. I'm not saying your statement is incorrect per se, but there's a point where it may be easily stretching too far.

[Kristopher]

Really? What do you think it does currently aside from deceive senses?

Shapeshift shouldn't be constructed as deceiving anything -- that's what Images and Mental Illusions are for. Shapeshift should actually shift the character's shape. There's no deception if the character really has assumed the physical likeness of something or someone else.

[Dust Raven]

Of course a VPP can do all of that. You can buy your flight any way you like, or your Armor, or whatever else. Lacking a limitation on it, it really doesnt matter whatsoever -- it's wide open. Thats the nature of a VPP.

If you apply a Lim to the Control Cost you reduce your options, but a "Animal Forms Only" VPP would only require that the Powers you take in the VPP are appropriate to Animal Forms assumed.

Thus if you change into "Bird" form, you can only have abilities in the VPP appropriate to a bird -- HKA for beak and talons, enhanced vision, and restrainable flight. Activation of Powers covers the bird-like appearance. Your good.

Next phase you switch to Dog form which is defined as a combination of enhanced smell and hearing, some running, and a HKA bite.

etc etc etc.

If you want a generic form changer more like Apocalypse, basically turn into whatever form is useful, just define the Limited Power Lim differently as "Form Change Related Abilities Only", -1/4. Thus if you change yourself into metal one phase (Armor), and into Water the next (limited Desolid), and Wood the third Phase (Armor and some buoyancy based swimming) youre fine.
I see your point, but...

Would you allow a character that bought some Armor and a HKA to turn into a Rhino when he says they're on, and then turn into a man when they're off? I wouldn't. I might allow a man to turn into a Rhino-man when he turns his Armor on, but that's about it. Turning into a completely different shape requires Shape Shift, regardless of what other Powers you might have.

[zornwil]

I think a lot if it has to do with the implied as much as explicit utility of the shapeshifting and KS has introduced an excellent topic/concern.

Where this is has been clearly legitimized in the rules, aside from the reference KS has cited, is the change in the treatment of size. One can be any given size and it doesn't cost or detract points in and of itself.

However, changing size is a power. Interestingly, simply changing from size to another is in and of itself a utility, and not merely for combat purposes, whereas simply being a given size is not of sufficient utility to pay points for.

So "changing" state is at some level, at some point, a power. Being a rhino-man naturally has never costed anything. Changing into a rhino-man as powers are manifested is also not in and of itself of a specific game value, and of course it's always been that way. The book indicates that Instant Change is a value only for "Characters who want to alter their clothing without using another Power..." Which is a subtle but important distinction in that Superman shouldn't have to have Instant Change - he merely has to "turn on" his Flight as far as mechanics go. So even speed of change is not important or relevant anymore in HERO terms.

But there is a utility to being able to change state in general. In fact one must pay for Shape Shift to turn into merely a single shape, which reflects the comment above regarding Instant Change - it has utility in the absence of turning on any other power.

Of course being able to be not simply rhino-man but a rhino may take on enough disads for that state that perhaps the disads outweigh the Shape Shift cost (setting aside any argument over the number of Senses which must be bought to be a rhino shape or perceived as a rhino shape, as the case/argument may be).

So the ability to simply change clothing or change shape in the absence of using another power actually requires invocation of a power. And the ability to change shapes more flexibly is written with costs and is certainly implied IMO by the way the book discusses such to be of sufficient additional value that it should not be presumed to be an automatic benefit of having many different powers with different SFXes. However, if the powers enforce a particular appearance, or if a particular appearance is merely a heroic 'state" if you will, there is certainly book-sanctioned room, as KS cites, for there to be no additional cost. I think the boundary has to do with the restriciveness of how the powers inform the shape change/state. If the change is merely to some specific and singular form that carries with it no significant advantages and in no significant way obfuscates the identity of the changer other than obfuscating a "base" identity, then treating it as of no game value in points is fine. However, if Animal Man in shifting to being different animals bears no relationship in identification to being other animals, I argue there is a significant value and he should pay for Shape Shift; as he shifts to each form he not only has gained a new utility in his ability to navigate and in which crowds he can travel in, but he also has gained additional identity-changing ability - stressing that the assumption here is he doesn't have the same human face, for example, on each version or some other, even if less obvious, clear thing that "brands" his various identities as a single being.

[Sean Waters]

Bit of a long one: sorry.

Anyone who has read the other shapeshift threads knows where I stand on this one but, to address the original question (and at the risk of repeating in dumbed down form what Zornwil has said)


Basically, how would you build a Shape Shift Power that altered the shape, but not the color/other appearance of a character? I'm thinking of the Beast Boy effect, where it doesn't matter what animal he turns into, it has green skin and black hair and his eyes.

Would this be a limit on the Shapeshift, or just buying just Sight Group or Touch Group and not the other?

You need to decide what effect the shape changing has. If it doesn't really have any effect but is pure SFX, with balanced, but minor advantages and limitations, it is not IMO shape shift at all, it is SFX/activation of powers, whatever. if no one ever believes that you are anyone other than MorphoLass, no matter what you look like, it shouldn't really cost anything.

If it can be used to fool people either into thinking you are someone else you need to use shape shift or something similar, and you need to buy the sense groups that you can fool. That'll probably be touch and sight, maybe hearing too if you can sound different.

THEN you need to decide how often you can fool someone, and look up the generic limitation table. If you can only do it when you have a bright light behind you and appear in silhouette, then that has to be somewhere between -1 and -2. If it works unless someone makes a PER roll, I'd say probably -1/2.

If you do need shapeshift and you need to be able to do it to access your VPP then you should get the linked limitation, and the level will depend on the relative APs of the shapeshift and the VPP. Draining the shapeshift cripples the VPP.

Zornwil mentions size change. I would have very similar comments about that: the abilty to change size should probably be a power you pay points for, but I'd be inclined to get rid of all the combat bonuses/penalties and characteristic boosts, and make size change one power, payable at 5 points per doubling or halving (or less if I could persuade people that 5 points shouldn't be the basic cost of everything, I'd make it 2 or 3 points per level), and you link powers to it, or even allow a new and interesting form of framework, something like a multipower, or a modified multiform that allows you to change just some powers, but retain the basics) to simulate the relevant changes. Being able to change size (and to a lesser extent mass) can be useful, but generally isn't: it is mainly a sfx. It is more useful than having a fixed size, but probably isn't worth the cost at present.

Simply because I can not resist putting in my sixthof a shilling, old money, I have thought about this and I am grudgingly willing to accept that shape shift can operate as a sense power (even though they call it a body power), but the problem to my mind is that it is a hybrid: it fools senses (perfectly: no PER roll, unless you are attempting imitation), but it also actually does change your shape, otherwise you couldn't use it to get out of ropes or squeeze through small spaces. Ropes don't have or need senses, even touch (you can't escape ropes, for example, with a touch flash!), so it isn't just effecting senses. The power as writ is not really doing what it claims it is, or rather is doing more! I think it is this that is the seed of my confusion and that in turn seeds my dislike of this iteration of the power.

I would agree that shape shift as presented at the moment should be absorbed into invisibility and images (but probably not darkness), but the abilty to escape ropes and slip through small (but not tiny) openings should be an adder for stretching, or a limitation on desolid or (shock horror!) both. IMO.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Simply because I can not resist putting in my sixthof a shilling, old money, I have thought about this and I am grudgingly willing to accept that shape shift can operate as a sense power (even though they call it a body power), but the problem to my mind is that it is a hybrid: it fools senses (perfectly: no PER roll, unless you are attempting imitation), but it also actually does change your shape, otherwise you couldn't use it to get out of ropes or squeeze through small spaces. Ropes don't have or need senses, even touch (you can't escape ropes, for example, with a touch flash!), so it isn't just effecting senses. The power as writ is not really doing what it claims it is, or rather is doing more! I think it is this that is the seed of my confusion and that in turn seeds my dislike of this iteration of the power.While I agree that Shape Shift in general could be defined a bit more tightly, I disagree with the idea that it (always) changes your shape. There are certainly valid SFX of Shape Shift that don't involve literally changing shape at all (such as a super-Disguise effect).

Although a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, I do wonder if changing the name of Shape Shift might help. Perhaps it could be called "Morph" or something, with a base effect of changing your appearance (and only your appearance) vs one sense group. Then you can pile on adders to be able to affect more sense groups, imitate specific beings, have the morphing extend down to the cellular level, actually change your shape (within the constraints of not being large enough to warrant Growth, small enough to warrant Shrinking, or elongated enough to warrant Stretching), etc.

In fact, a thought just struck me. I think I'm going to make it a house rule that Shape Shift (as written now) only allows you to actually alter your physical shape if you've purchased it so that it affects the Touch Sense Group. How could you rationally claim you changed shape if touching you didn't reveal the change? :)

[Killer Shrike]

I see your point, but...

Would you allow a character that bought some Armor and a HKA to turn into a Rhino when he says they're on, and then turn into a man when they're off? If that's how theyve defined the SFX of their powers, then yes.



I wouldn't. I might allow a man to turn into a Rhino-man when he turns his Armor on, but that's about it. Turning into a completely different shape requires Shape Shift, regardless of what other Powers you might have.

Read "Activation of Powers", page 103 in 5ER, particularly the part about "...even if activating it causes or requires physical changes in the character, his powers, or his equipment."


If the SFX of the character's Powers is "look like a Rhino" then they dont need to buy Shape Shift to "look like a Rhino" when they use their Powers.

[Killer Shrike]

Shapeshift shouldn't be constructed as deceiving anything -- that's what Images and Mental Illusions are for. Shapeshift should actually shift the character's shape. There's no deception if the character really has assumed the physical likeness of something or someone else.
As I already covered in a past thread, changing forms has two primary purposes. One is the change into a shape that grant's abilities (like grow wings or claws, run faster, etc), the other is to deceive.

In the HERO System you buy other abilities using the appropriate Power; thus if you want to grow wings and fly you model that with Flying, claws with HKA, senses with Enhanced Senses, and so on.

That leaves only one use for a "Shape Shift" power, which is the deception portion of it.

If you look at Shape Shift's implementation in 5th Edition that is how it is set up; you buy the ability to alter other's perception of you vs specific senses. Mechanically it is built like a Sense Effecting power. If you want to alter the way various senses detect you and call the SFX of that "I changed into some other shape" that's a perfectly valid and common SFX for the Power to model, but mechanically all that matters is what senses are fooled by your altered shape.

[Killer Shrike]

I think a lot if it has to do with the implied as much as explicit utility of the shapeshifting and KS has introduced an excellent topic/concern.

Where this is has been clearly legitimized in the rules, aside from the reference KS has cited, is the change in the treatment of size. One can be any given size and it doesn't cost or detract points in and of itself.

However, changing size is a power. Interestingly, simply changing from size to another is in and of itself a utility, and not merely for combat purposes, whereas simply being a given size is not of sufficient utility to pay points for.

So "changing" state is at some level, at some point, a power. Being a rhino-man naturally has never costed anything. Changing into a rhino-man as powers are manifested is also not in and of itself of a specific game value, and of course it's always been that way. The book indicates that Instant Change is a value only for "Characters who want to alter their clothing without using another Power..." Which is a subtle but important distinction in that Superman shouldn't have to have Instant Change - he merely has to "turn on" his Flight as far as mechanics go. So even speed of change is not important or relevant anymore in HERO terms.

But there is a utility to being able to change state in general. In fact one must pay for Shape Shift to turn into merely a single shape, which reflects the comment above regarding Instant Change - it has utility in the absence of turning on any other power.

Of course being able to be not simply rhino-man but a rhino may take on enough disads for that state that perhaps the disads outweigh the Shape Shift cost (setting aside any argument over the number of Senses which must be bought to be a rhino shape or perceived as a rhino shape, as the case/argument may be).

So the ability to simply change clothing or change shape in the absence of using another power actually requires invocation of a power. And the ability to change shapes more flexibly is written with costs and is certainly implied IMO by the way the book discusses such to be of sufficient additional value that it should not be presumed to be an automatic benefit of having many different powers with different SFXes. However, if the powers enforce a particular appearance, or if a particular appearance is merely a heroic 'state" if you will, there is certainly book-sanctioned room, as KS cites, for there to be no additional cost. I think the boundary has to do with the restriciveness of how the powers inform the shape change/state. If the change is merely to some specific and singular form that carries with it no significant advantages and in no significant way obfuscates the identity of the changer other than obfuscating a "base" identity, then treating it as of no game value in points is fine. However, if Animal Man in shifting to being different animals bears no relationship in identification to being other animals, I argue there is a significant value and he should pay for Shape Shift; as he shifts to each form he not only has gained a new utility in his ability to navigate and in which crowds he can travel in, but he also has gained additional identity-changing ability - stressing that the assumption here is he doesn't have the same human face, for example, on each version or some other, even if less obvious, clear thing that "brands" his various identities as a single being.


Yes, if he is attempting to maquerade as something not recognizable as himself -- his purpose is to deceive/blend in and not change form for some utility ability, then Shape Shift would be the power to use. However, my point is that for such characters that can do BOTH, it's perfectly valid to take Shape Shift <i>in their form change VPP</i> when they want that utility, rather than buy a VPP <i>and</i> Shape Shift. Further it is particularly unecessary to link Shape Shift to a VPP to accomplish a build even if the character did buy a Shape Shift outside of their VPP for some reason.

[SleepyDrug]

Question -- in Norse mythology Loki changed shape into a woman and gave birth. How would you build this in HERO? Shape-Shift.

If I want to change my hand to operate a control designed for an alien, how would I do that? Shape-Shift.

My hand really alters shape so I can manipulate the control. I don't *deceive* the control into letting me alter it. And Loki doesn't deceive anyone into letting him be pregnent.

[Killer Shrike]

Question -- in Norse mythology Loki changed shape into a woman and gave birth. How would you build this in HERO? Shape-Shift. Actually, he changed into a form that had a capability that his normal form lacked, so Multiform may have been involved.

Shape Shift wouldnt have allowed him to do anything different than his normal form allowed. He merely would have LOOKED like a pregnant woman with Shape Shift.




If I want to change my hand to operate a control designed for an alien, how would I do that? Shape-Shift.

My hand really alters shape so I can manipulate the control.

That would depend entirely on how the "control designed for an alien" were defined in mechanical terms.



I don't *deceive* the control into letting me alter it. And Loki doesn't deceive anyone into letting him be pregnent.
Then don't use Shape Shift, because that's what Shape Shift does -- alter the way various senses detect you.

[Kristopher]

As I already covered in a past thread, changing forms has two primary purposes. One is the change into a shape that grant's abilities (like grow wings or claws, run faster, etc), the other is to deceive.

In the HERO System you buy other abilities using the appropriate Power; thus if you want to grow wings and fly you model that with Flying, claws with HKA, senses with Enhanced Senses, and so on.

That leaves only one use for a "Shape Shift" power, which is the deception portion of it.

If you look at Shape Shift's implementation in 5th Edition that is how it is set up; you buy the ability to alter other's perception of you vs specific senses. Mechanically it is built like a Sense Effecting power. If you want to alter the way various senses detect you and call the SFX of that "I changed into some other shape" that's a perfectly valid and common SFX for the Power to model, but mechanically all that matters is what senses are fooled by your altered shape.

If that's true, then there's absolutely no use for Shapeshift at all. Just use Images with limitations. It's cheaper, and has always been an artificial sensory experience, instead of a power that used to do something different -- actually change the form of the character -- that has since been definied into meaninlessness.

Additionally, I would never, for any reason, allow a character to only buy the Sight Sense Group for Shapeshift. If all a character is doing is creating the image of something else, then that's Images, no range, self only. Touch will be required with Sight. For some effects, Hearing or Smell/Taste might work alone, but in each case the character really is chaning the way his voice sounds, or what he smells like. That's not a sensory deception.

And that's what it really comes down to. With Shapeshift, the character really is changing somehow -- it's not just a sensory deception. If it is just a sensory deception, then there are other Powers -- Images, Mental Illusions, etc -- that are better suited for the task.

[Killer Shrike]

If that's true, then there's absolutely no use for Shapeshift at all. Just use Images with limitations. It's cheaper, and has always been an artificial sensory experience, instead of a power that used to do something different -- actually change the form of the character -- that has since been definied into meaninlessness.

It's not meaningless; it just doesnt mean what you seem to think it does.

As far as Images vs Shape Shift; youll note that my position is that Shape Shift, Images, Darkness, and Invisibility should be combined into one power with various options.



Additionally, I would never, for any reason, allow a character to only buy the Sight Sense Group for Shapeshift.


That's not really relevant, since the rules permit you to do so.



If all a character is doing is creating the image of something else, then that's Images, no range, self only. Touch will be required with Sight. For some effects, Hearing or Smell/Taste might work alone, but in each case the character really is chaning the way his voice sounds, or what he smells like. That's not a sensory deception.

The end result is the same.



And that's what it really comes down to. With Shapeshift, the character really is changing somehow -- it's not just a sensory deception. If it is just a sensory deception, then there are other Powers -- Images, Mental Illusions, etc -- that are better suited for the task.


Read the power description. "A character with Shape Shift can change his form <i>as perceived by one or more Sense Groups</i> without altering his powers or other abilities." and "The cost for Shape Shift depends on whether the change <i>affects</i> a Targeting or Nontargeting Sense Group.


Shape Shift is categorized as a Body-Affecting Power, but it functions like a limited Sense-Affecting Power.

You can label it whatever you like, but functionally it behaves like a Sense Affecting power.

[zornwil]

No one denies in HERO 5th Edition it "behaves like a Sense Affecting power," that's a given. The issues discussed had to do with its diversity of properties in gameplay, the interaction with Senses in gameplay, and the value, elegance, and appropriateness of the current construction.

PS/EDIT - to Kristopher's point, if you buy Shape Shift vs Touch, 5ER at least (may also be in 5) indicates you actually do alter your shape.

[zornwil]

As to the above, the comment vs Touch is not in 5th, but in 5ER.

And more, from 5th Edition and in 5ER, it says "Shape Shift is related to, but different from, Multiform. Shape Shift allows a character to change his form, but not his powers or abilities. ... When building powers related to changing shapes, players should carefully evaluate those two Powers to determine which one is best suited to create the ability desired." In 5ER it indicates "most" shape changes should probably affect both Sight and Touch.

While of course it performs per the rules as a Sense Affecting power, it should be noted the same rules establish it has a foot in the Body powers as well with a real component of physical change.

[Kristopher]

The end result is the same.


Which means very little to me, really -- my view of the game is not so utterly mechanistic.


Read the power description. "A character with Shape Shift can change his form <i>as perceived by one or more Sense Groups</i> without altering his powers or other abilities." and "The cost for Shape Shift depends on whether the change <i>affects</i> a Targeting or Nontargeting Sense Group.

Shape Shift is categorized as a Body-Affecting Power, but it functions like a limited Sense-Affecting Power.

And this is one of the things that DoJ completely screwed up on in Fifth Edition. In this case, I honestly couldn't care less what the description in the book has to say. Shapeshift is not a sense-deceiving power, and should not be constructed as one. There's no deception going on -- a character that uses Shapeshift is actually changing something, not just appearing to change something. Classifying Shapeshift as a Sense-based power makes about as much sense as classifying a Ranged Killing Attack as a Sense-based power.

"Well, everyone perceives the character as dead..." :rolleyes:

[zornwil]

I can see uses for Shape Shift when it is appearance and not per se shape. Images has a limitation in that it's PER-based, whereas SS is not. To simulate a particular type of character where it projects an image about itself that people perceive but is actually varied from its solid shape, right now Shape Shift is the only way. And I don't think it's misusing the power in a reason-from-effect sense, in that this is one of those instances where "Shape Shift" in its broadest sense works. So I think the issue is a combo of perception and body shifts; the important thing to me is to just require that SS have 3 senses that can detect it with options to buy Invisible Power Effecs still. With that flexibility you can build what I just described well enough (and the senses that would detect it would be touch, radar and other such powers, typically).

[Killer Shrike]

Which means very little to me, really -- my view of the game is not so utterly mechanistic.



And this is one of the things that DoJ completely screwed up on in Fifth Edition. In this case, I honestly couldn't care less what the description in the book has to say. Shapeshift is not a sense-deceiving power, and should not be constructed as one. There's no deception going on -- a character that uses Shapeshift is actually changing something, not just appearing to change something. Classifying Shapeshift as a Sense-based power makes about as much sense as classifying a Ranged Killing Attack as a Sense-based power.

"Well, everyone perceives the character as dead..." :rolleyes:

You appear to be very literal, so Ill clarify what I mean by "deception".

If you dont look like yourself, that is a deception. If you do something and are perceived as not being who you really are, that is a form of deception. Onlookers think they are gaining information regarding your identity but are not gaining information on your real, actual, non-altered appearance.

If you put on a mickey mouse suit, people that see you dont see <i>you</i>, they see Mickey Mouse. They have been deceived.

Comprende?


What I am saying is that there are only two practical, measurable uses for altering your form: to gain abilities based on form <i>or</i> just to look (smell, etc) like something else. In the HERO System you buy abilities using OTHER powers, leaving Shape Shift with nothing to do except change how you are perceived. Unsurprisingly, thats all it does.

[Kristopher]

The split lies in the difference between "deception" and "sensory deception". In the case of Shapeshift, your senses aren't being deceived. What you see is what's actually there -- if Prof. Morpho changes into Kathy Ireland, then your eyes aren't being deceived, the person standing in front of you really does look like Kathy Ireland.

[Kristopher]

You appear to be very literal, so Ill clarify what I mean by "deception".

...

Comprende?


Remember when someone said you sometimes appear condescending?

This is one of those times.

[Derek Hiemforth]

The split lies in the difference between "deception" and "sensory deception". In the case of Shapeshift, your senses aren't being deceived. What you see is what's actually there -- if Prof. Morpho changes into Kathy Ireland, then your eyes aren't being deceived, the person standing in front of you really does look like Kathy Ireland.But the person in front of me isn't really Kathy Ireland, and in fact, isn't even really someone who looks exactly like Kathy Ireland (such as Kathy Ireland's twin or something). It's someone who has the ability to make themselves appear to be Kathy Ireland.

In that aspect, it is primarily sensory deception. If the Shapeshift didn't cover all my available senses, I might get clued in that this isn't the "real" Kathy Ireland, even if my eyes and other senses didn't spot the difference.

Shapeshift is a cosmetic change only. No matter how incredibly detailed and comprehensive a cosmetic change it is -- even to the point of precisely duplicating another being's structure on the cellular level -- it's still just a cosmetic change. It doesn't change the abilities or the "true nature" (to get philosophical) of the user at all.

The only function a purely cosmetic change serves is to fool people into thinking the counterfeit is the real deal. You fool people by deceiving their senses. Hence the manner in which Shapeshift works.

[zornwil]

But the person in front of me isn't really Kathy Ireland, and in fact, isn't even really someone who looks exactly like Kathy Ireland (such as Kathy Ireland's twin or something). It's someone who has the ability to make themselves appear to be Kathy Ireland.

In that aspect, it is primarily sensory deception. If the Shapeshift didn't cover all my available senses, I might get clued in that this isn't the "real" Kathy Ireland, even if my eyes and other senses didn't spot the difference.

Shapeshift is a cosmetic change only. No matter how incredibly detailed and comprehensive a cosmetic change it is -- even to the point of precisely duplicating another being's structure on the cellular level -- it's still just a cosmetic change. It doesn't change the abilities or the "true nature" (to get philosophical) of the user at all.

The only function a purely cosmetic change serves is to fool people into thinking the counterfeit is the real deal. You fool people by deceiving their senses. Hence the manner in which Shapeshift works.
But a cosmetic change can still be a true shift of shape; it's not as if it is necessarily merely a change of imagery, the thing "cosmetically" changing may be physically changing (though not, to your point, changing mentally or spiritually).

In this, it is not necessarily that the being changing shape intends specifically to deceive. They may be intending to use the utility of the new form, whether to fit through a small opening or to wrap around something or who knows what. There is a utility beyond the cosmetic part. In the cases of conforming to shapes and fitting in places, only Size and Stretching powers may fill this need, and each of those has limitations in regard to form-fitting that Shape Shift does not.

[Derek Hiemforth]

In this, it is not necessarily that the being changing shape intends specifically to deceive. They may be intending to use the utility of the new form, whether to fit through a small opening or to wrap around something or who knows what. There is a utility beyond the cosmetic part. In the cases of conforming to shapes and fitting in places, only Size and Stretching powers may fill this need, and each of those has limitations in regard to form-fitting that Shape Shift does not.To me, this is why Shapeshift is a sort of hybrid Body-Changing Power and Sense-Affecting Power. The extent of its body alteration is to allow some increase in size (but less than a single level of Growth), some decrease in size (but less than a single level of Shrinking), or some malleability in shape or reach (but less than a single level of Stretching). And I would only allow (and 5ER may concur -- I don't have it with me) even those minor alterations if Touch was one of the senses the Shape Shift affected.

[zornwil]

To me, this is why Shapeshift is a sort of hybrid Body-Changing Power and Sense-Affecting Power. The extent of its body alteration is to allow some increase in size (but less than a single level of Growth), some decrease in size (but less than a single level of Shrinking), or some malleability in shape or reach (but less than a single level of Stretching). And I would only allow (and 5ER may concur -- I don't have it with me) even those minor alterations if Touch was one of the senses the Shape Shift affected.
5ER doesn't limit the change in size to Touch but the discussion does, IIRC, speak to malleability and such. It's a detailed discussion which is interesting and adds a lot to the original 5th commentary. It does point out in 5ER that by taking Shape Shift against Touch the change is real and physical, which is not the case with the other senses.

(edited to remove unnecessary, as they were already stated, opinions)

[Killer Shrike]

The split lies in the difference between "deception" and "sensory deception". In the case of Shapeshift, your senses aren't being deceived. What you see is what's actually there -- if Prof. Morpho changes into Kathy Ireland, then your eyes aren't being deceived, the person standing in front of you really does look like Kathy Ireland.

You perceive an altered state; that is a deception. You think the person is Kathy Ireland, or whoever but they manifestly are not.

Further, depending upon what senses the person's shape shift are purchased to affect, that person may appear to be Kathy Ireland or whoever to some senses and not vs others.

You seem very hung up on the idea that Shape Shift very literally means a change in form, but the power does not function like that. It <i>may</i> indicate a change in form, it <i>may</i> indicate an illusion, it <i>may</i> indicate a very specific form of "Mental Illusions", it <i>may</i> indicate a costume, or any other SFX whose end EFFECT is modeled via the mechanical construct labeled as "Shape Shift".

It's just a mechanic. What you do with it is a SFX.

[Killer Shrike]

Remember when someone said you sometimes appear condescending?

This is one of those times.
If you prefer to interpret explanatory as condescending, c'est la vie.

[Killer Shrike]

But a cosmetic change can still be a true shift of shape; it's not as if it is necessarily merely a change of imagery, the thing "cosmetically" changing may be physically changing (though not, to your point, changing mentally or spiritually).
Which makes no difference from a mechanical stand point.

It doesnt matter if you conceptually changed shape or not from a mechanical perspective -- all that matters is what senses your Power effects.

Altering form or not altering form is a matter of SFX. It makes no actual difference in resolution.



In this, it is not necessarily that the being changing shape intends specifically to deceive. They may be intending to use the utility of the new form, whether to fit through a small opening or to wrap around something or who knows what. There is a utility beyond the cosmetic part. In the cases of conforming to shapes and fitting in places, only Size and Stretching powers may fill this need, and each of those has limitations in regard to form-fitting that Shape Shift does not.

Shape Shift the Power does not provide any utility. It only alters the way you are perceived.

If you want to change into a smaller form to squeeze thru an opening, use Shrinking. If you want to change into a form with elongated limbs use Stretching, if you want to change into a form with super-strong legs use Leaping, and so on and so forth.

The HERO System already has a mechanic to allow this sort of thing -- it's called a Variable Power Pool; or alternately if you have a limited set of well-defined forms, Multiform.

If you want to "Shape Change" to gain utility abilities on the fly, use a VPP or MF. If you just want to appear to be something else, use Shape Shift.

[zornwil]

Which makes no difference from a mechanical stand point.

It doesnt matter if you conceptually changed shape or not from a mechanical perspective -- all that matters is what senses your Power effects.

Altering form or not altering form is a matter of SFX. It makes no actual difference in resolution.



Shape Shift the Power does not provide any utility. It only alters the way you are perceived.

If you want to change into a smaller form to squeeze thru an opening, use Shrinking. If you want to change into a form with elongated limbs use Stretching, if you want to change into a form with super-strong legs use Leaping, and so on and so forth.

The HERO System already has a mechanic to allow this sort of thing -- it's called a Variable Power Pool; or alternately if you have a limited set of well-defined forms, Multiform.

If you want to "Shape Change" to gain utility abilities on the fly, use a VPP or MF. If you just want to appear to be something else, use Shape Shift.

I don't understand why you're denying there's a utility distinct to Shape Shift in that one purchases simply that power to be able to fit through a hole, to fit in a space, to frighten someone by appearing as a bear (or whatever), and so on. Yes, you can buy Shrinking, Stretching, and PRE for these 3 things, but the singular power grants all of these in some fashion (not PRE directly, obviously, but the opportunity to perform an unexpected social interaction that accomplishes much the same for a small end of the scale).

PS - plus as indicated above, the book itself indicates that the ability is for shape changing and indicates to consider whether you want Shape Shift or Multiform - not whether you want Shape Shift or a VPP.

[Sean Waters]

We can all shapeshift: see I've made my hand into a fist...

My badly stated point from a couple of days ago is that I accept that shape shift as writ allows you to actually change shape (but only really if you have it vs touch), but it is built and presented as a sense affecting power and called a Body power and (unless 5ER (or 'Julie' as I will now be calling her) has changed that - and I wouldn't know because i can't get hold of the damn book) it doesn't do actual shape shifting very well. Shape shift should maybe have a different name (or be amalgamated with other powers) and NOT shift your shape. You can change your texture or skin temperature with it, or look a different shape, but to actually change shape I reckon you should have an adder, probably to stretching. it just makes absolutely no sense (to me, and pun, as alawys, intended) to say shape shift can change your mass a bit, your height a bit or allow you to actually change shape a bit. have it do what it does (perfectly fool the senses) and have the other bits built with other powers. My main gripe with the power is this hybridisation that it has undergone.

[Sean Waters]

Morphicus wants to be able to change shape into a 9 foot tall gorilla. Not actually change into a 9 foot gorilla, you understand, just change his shape to that form. He doesn't get any characteristic bonuses or other powers. He'll get some reach and that's about it. Shapeshift? No, actually, you can't change your height that much. Looking like a gorilla isn't a massively useful power unless you are playing in a game where gorillas are common. Sounds like a perfectly reasonable use of shape shifting, but you can't do it (you can assume the form of a small gorilla, but not a big one)

Why not just add a +10 point adder to images : Perfect (doesn't allow a PER roll unless imitating something specific and unique), then buy a few points of growth or stretching?

Why, when we come down to it, do we need shape shift as it stands?

[PhilFleischmann]

If you prefer to interpret explanatory as condescending, c'est la vie.
When you make psychological characterizations of others, such as, "You appear to be very literal," and "You seem very hung up," rather than arguing the merits of the ideas, you are in fact being condescending. You aren't just deceiving the senses into thinking that you're being condescending, you really are being condescending.

[Sean Waters]

When you make psychological characterizations of others, such as, "You appear to be very literal," and "You seem very hung up," rather than arguing the merits of the ideas, you are in fact being condescending. You aren't just deceiving the senses into thinking that you're being condescending, you really are being condescending.

What's this? Shape shift vs psychological senses? Kewl. Or possible Krewl...

[Killer Shrike]

I don't understand why you're denying there's a utility distinct to Shape Shift in that one purchases simply that power to be able to fit through a hole, to fit in a space, to frighten someone by appearing as a bear (or whatever), and so on. Yes, you can buy Shrinking, Stretching, and PRE for these 3 things, but the singular power grants all of these in some fashion (not PRE directly, obviously, but the opportunity to perform an unexpected social interaction that accomplishes much the same for a small end of the scale).
The write up for Shape Shift specifically states that it does not change the characters abilities.

As far as appearance based effects, by default appearance has a limited and conditional effect on Interaction and PRE Attacks, which all characters have for free already, so altering appearance to enhance that free function of appearance is not a violation of the basic idea that Shape Shift doesnt grant any <i>additional</i> abilities.



PS - plus as indicated above, the book itself indicates that the ability is for shape changing and indicates to consider whether you want Shape Shift or Multiform - not whether you want Shape Shift or a VPP.

To the best of my knowledge none of the power writeups recommend a Framework. That doesnt change the fact that Frameworks are often the most direct way to model complex characters.

Are you suggesting that if a character wants to use a wide array of different powers as needed dynamically, but doesnt intend to use all of them simultaneously, a VPP isnt an excellent way to model that?

Are you suggesting that if I want my character to <i>sometimes</i> grow wings and fly and <i>sometimes</i> grow claws to attack with and <i>sometimes</i> run on all fours for extra running, VPP isnt an obvious and rules-correct way to go about having those powers when I want them?

[Killer Shrike]

When you make psychological characterizations of others, such as, "You appear to be very literal," and "You seem very hung up," rather than arguing the merits of the ideas, you are in fact being condescending. You aren't just deceiving the senses into thinking that you're being condescending, you really are being condescending.

On the other hand, if I think he is being overly literal and I think he is hung up on semantics rather than function, then stating so is an expression of my opinion and is explanatory of what I think.

Are you suggesting that Im not entitled to my opinion?

[Sean Waters]

If you actually want to change into different creatures then you need multiform, no question to my mind.

If you want to be Mr Amorphous Blob that can change shape (but not appearance per se) and gets powers based on the shape (growth, stretching, HKA, running, clinging, whatever) I'd use a VPP (spit hooooooowwwwwwlllllllll!!!) without requiring shape shift at all; it is all sfx, even though you do actually change shape.

If you want to be able to look like other things (but not actually become them) and get powers based on the form, buy shapeshift and link a VPP e.g. you look (and smell) like a bear, you got strength and claws, but none of the enhanced senses or IQ problems.

A 'true' shapeshifter should probably have a single power VPP (multiform) but is not welcome in my games, as it will take forever...shapeshift with a linked VPP (or a couple of linked MPs, one with size and density slots, one with wings, claws, armour, running etc, all multi slots...) works best IMO for most 'versatile' shapeshifters though.

[Sean Waters]

On the other hand, if I think he is being overly literal and I think he is hung up on semantics rather than function, then stating so is an expression of my opinion and is explanatory of what I think.

Are you suggesting that Im not entitled to my opinion?

No one is entitled to an opinion: an opinion is just a statement you are not willing to justify. You're perfectly entitled to your well reasoned arguments but maybe, just maybe, if you are trying to convince the crowd it doesn't advance your case much if your well reasoned arguments might be interpretted as a personal attack. You can say what you like about me, though, I'm a Robot Replicant at present and don't take anything personally.

I am hung up on the name though, sorry. Shape shift sounds too much like something shifting shape to get the notion out of my head, even though I know all about sfx (or at least what mummy and daddy explained to me about sfx when I saw them doing the bad thing....) :) and I can accept that an energy blast can be a rubber bullet.

I'm also hung up on the fact (in my opinion, which I'm not entitled to, see above) that it used to work just fine in 4th ed. and didn't need to have its shape shifted.

[zornwil]

The write up for Shape Shift specifically states that it does not change the characters abilities.

And yet...that's not relevant to my point. As clearly Shape Shift is used for the purposes of fitting in spaces and such whereas it might be difficult or impossible without other powers. And the rules in fact do state that Shape Shift vs. Touch creates an actual change in shape. And there is a value ot an actual change in shape...or this power would not exist as such.


As far as appearance based effects, by default appearance has a limited and conditional effect on Interaction and PRE Attacks, which all characters have for free already, so altering appearance to enhance that free function of appearance is not a violation of the basic idea that Shape Shift doesnt grant any <i>additional</i> abilities.



To the best of my knowledge none of the power writeups recommend a Framework. That doesnt change the fact that Frameworks are often the most direct way to model complex characters.

Are you suggesting that if a character wants to use a wide array of different powers as needed dynamically, but doesnt intend to use all of them simultaneously, a VPP isnt an excellent way to model that?

Are you suggesting that if I want my character to <i>sometimes</i> grow wings and fly and <i>sometimes</i> grow claws to attack with and <i>sometimes</i> run on all fours for extra running, VPP isnt an obvious and rules-correct way to go about having those powers when I want them?

Irrelevent. So you deny that in fact there is an actual value to Shape Shift that is not specifically for "deception'?

[zornwil]

Morphicus wants to be able to change shape into a 9 foot tall gorilla. Not actually change into a 9 foot gorilla, you understand, just change his shape to that form. He doesn't get any characteristic bonuses or other powers. He'll get some reach and that's about it. Shapeshift? No, actually, you can't change your height that much. Looking like a gorilla isn't a massively useful power unless you are playing in a game where gorillas are common. Sounds like a perfectly reasonable use of shape shifting, but you can't do it (you can assume the form of a small gorilla, but not a big one)

Why not just add a +10 point adder to images : Perfect (doesn't allow a PER roll unless imitating something specific and unique), then buy a few points of growth or stretching?

Why, when we come down to it, do we need shape shift as it stands?
I think the argument for divorcing Growth and Shrinking from Shape Shift was that it could easiy be added and that doubling the capability with Shape Shift was fudging which was the right way to do it, sa well as creating confusion over cost/value.

I would tend to agree with that - but I still run Shape Shift as in 4th anyway since it worked fine there.

[Sean Waters]

What I will probably never get my head round is that if the character in question is supposed to actually change shape, I'm supposed to guess at conception every sense that might be used to detect the shape and include that in the build, which I find unnecessarily fretful.

[Hyper-Man]

I think this debate is missing an important aspect of the rules.

Is there any effect that Shapeshift can be used for that could not also be accomplished with Images?

I know Images is not an absolute effect but it is not alone in that regard. It could be argued that Damage Reduction and Desolidification (when used primarily as an immunity damage) have a similar relationship.

If you take time to just think of Shapeshift as Images with something like a Standard Effect (no roll required, whatever that should cost!), No Invisibity and No Range it should be virtually identical in what it can accomplish.

HM

[zornwil]

What I will probably never get my head round is that if the character in question is supposed to actually change shape, I'm supposed to guess at conception every sense that might be used to detect the shape and include that in the build, which I find unnecessarily fretful.
Yeah, I agree. I think they should have handled it by exception, as with most other powers, where you must declare 3 Sense Groups by which the Shape Shift is visible (or at least not "Shifted") again, as it was in 4th) and of course you can buy that off with Invisible Power Effects. Although I like the idea of the Senses having discreet values so you could just purchase individual Senses from a Sense Group you are visible to, or purchase an entire Sense Group. This is how I've allowed the influence of 5th in my usage of Shape Shift. It seems to work extremely well, covering both the "reality" of the shift and the deceptive aspect.

[zornwil]

I think this debate is missing an important aspect of the rules.

Is there any effect that Shapeshift can be used for that could not also be accomplished with Images?

I know Images is not an absolute effect but it is not alone in that regard. It could be argued that Damage Reduction and Desolidification (when used primarily as an immunity damage) have a similar relationship.

If you take time to just think of Shapeshift as Images with something like a Standard Effect (no roll required, whatever that should cost!), No Invisibity and No Range it should be virtually identical in what it can accomplish.

HM
I have to run, but I believe the rules on Images vs Touch compared to the rules on SS vs Touch contradict your assertion. That and of course the absolute nature of Shape Shift, though you did take that into account in your comment so I can't really complain about that.

[Sean Waters]

I think the argument for divorcing Growth and Shrinking from Shape Shift was that it could easiy be added and that doubling the capability with Shape Shift was fudging which was the right way to do it, sa well as creating confusion over cost/value.

I would tend to agree with that - but I still run Shape Shift as in 4th anyway since it worked fine there.

Trouble is you have to be the botch-master-general to make something 150% taller and heavier without changing any characteristics using growth (what would the limitation on that be?) and shapeshift only allows a 10% variation on its own

[Sean Waters]

I wonder if shapeshift v touch could make you seem heavier:

He seems to weigh about two tons, which is odd as I can lift him with one arm....hmmmm....

[Hyper-Man]

I have to run, but I believe the rules on Images vs Touch compared to the rules on SS vs Touch contradict your assertion. That and of course the absolute nature of Shape Shift, though you did take that into account in your comment so I can't really complain about that.
You are correct. To more fully duplicate the Touch group effects of Shapeshift you would probably need to buy something like a limited form of Change Environment (also no range) as well.

If I were attempting to make a character whose powers and special effect included the ability to actually change the shape of his body I would use Shapeshift. I only bring up the alternative of Images (and Change Environment) to provide something to compare active and real cost effectiveness to since I am guessing that if enough limitations are applied the Images/CE combo could be built on about the same real points as any particular version of Shapeshift. (I have not done the math on this, I am just going on gut feeling right now.)

HM

[Kristopher]

But the person in front of me isn't really Kathy Ireland, and in fact, isn't even really someone who looks exactly like Kathy Ireland (such as Kathy Ireland's twin or something). It's someone who has the ability to make themselves appear to be Kathy Ireland.

In that aspect, it is primarily sensory deception. If the Shapeshift didn't cover all my available senses, I might get clued in that this isn't the "real" Kathy Ireland, even if my eyes and other senses didn't spot the difference.

Shapeshift is a cosmetic change only. No matter how incredibly detailed and comprehensive a cosmetic change it is -- even to the point of precisely duplicating another being's structure on the cellular level -- it's still just a cosmetic change. It doesn't change the abilities or the "true nature" (to get philosophical) of the user at all.

The only function a purely cosmetic change serves is to fool people into thinking the counterfeit is the real deal. You fool people by deceiving their senses. Hence the manner in which Shapeshift works.

If someone really does look or feel or sound or smell like something/someone else, then the senses aren't beind deceived. There's deception involved, but not of the senses.

[zornwil]

You are correct. To more fully duplicate the Touch group effects of Shapeshift you would probably need to buy something like a limited form of Change Environment (also no range) as well.

If I were attempting to make a character whose powers and special effect included the ability to actually change the shape of his body I would use Shapeshift. I only bring up the alternative of Images (and Change Environment) to provide something to compare active and real cost effectiveness to since I am guessing that if enough limitations are applied the Images/CE combo could be built on about the same real points as any particular version of Shapeshift. (I have not done the math on this, I am just going on gut feeling right now.)

HM
Could easily be; the two do seem more or less balanced, I'd say anyway.

[Derek Hiemforth]

If someone really does look or feel or sound or smell like something/someone else, then the senses aren't beind deceived. There's deception involved, but not of the senses.I'm sorry, this doesn't process for me. If I see something that really looks like a bat, but it isn't actually a bat, my senses aren't being deceived? :nonp:

[zornwil]

I'm sorry, this doesn't process for me. If I see something that really looks like a bat, but it isn't actually a bat, my senses aren't being deceived? :nonp:
I don't know that I'd go down that path, but it's not an argument without merit. The point is that from anything your senses could possibly tell (in this example) the thing is a bat. Your mind is the one being deceived, as the thing is in fact a bat to sight and a bat to touch and so on. In other words, you're fooled by its actual physical state.

[Dust Raven]

If that's how theyve defined the SFX of their powers, then yes.



Read "Activation of Powers", page 103 in 5ER, particularly the part about "...even if activating it causes or requires physical changes in the character, his powers, or his equipment."


If the SFX of the character's Powers is "look like a Rhino" then they dont need to buy Shape Shift to "look like a Rhino" when they use their Powers.
I think the key element here is that the definition is made when the Powers are bought, not when they are used. It stands to reason that you can't buy any Power (even in VPP) that says "the SFX is that I change shape into any shape other than my own". It's too powerful an effect. That extra power costs points, and those points should be spent on Shape Shift. If you disagree, please allow me to play a Shape Shifter in your next campaign and I'll have your head spinning.

[Kristopher]

I'm sorry, this doesn't process for me. If I see something that really looks like a bat, but it isn't actually a bat, my senses aren't being deceived? :nonp:

If the thing is in the shape of a bat, and has the color and texture and size and sound and smell of a bat...how are your senses being deceived?

The light reflects off the thing, and then into your eyes, and your eyes detect the light that's really there. Your ears detect vibrations in the air that are really there. Your nose detects little chemical bits that are really floating about. Etc.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I don't know that I'd go down that path, but it's not an argument without merit. The point is that from anything your senses could possibly tell (in this example) the thing is a bat. Your mind is the one being deceived, as the thing is in fact a bat to sight and a bat to touch and so on. In other words, you're fooled by its actual physical state.No, from anything my sight sense can perceive, the thing seems to be a bat. It may not smell like a bat, or have the mental signature of a bat, etc.

If one sense cannot determine the truth, but another can, then the sense that can't determine the truth is being deceived, isn't it?

[Sean Waters]

I think we might be getting a little too philosophical here without the philosophy measurably advancing our understanding of the problem. There's deception involved, that is probably as far as we need to go. Whether it is brain or eyes probably doesn't matter to the metagame (but might be vital to an individual power description....)

If both shapeshift and images deceive the SOMETHING, it seems to me the only difference between the powers (except the PER roll, which could be solved with an adder) is the effect that touch shapeshift has as against touch images. Every other appearance seems to me to work exactly the same way if it it is changed with images or shapeshift, and even touch SS/Images work the same way EXCEPT that touch SS allows you to include inanimate objects that wouldn't normally need or use a PER roll in the deception, like the ropes binding you or the hole you are trying to squeeze through, which you can't do with touch Images. i can't think of any differences for any other senses...can you?

[zornwil]

No, from anything my sight sense can perceive, the thing seems to be a bat. It may not smell like a bat, or have the mental signature of a bat, etc.

If one sense cannot determine the truth, but another can, then the sense that can't determine the truth is being deceived, isn't it?
Yeah but bearing in mind that the sense not deceived may be one we don't have unless one is super or supernatural (such as mental as you listed), my point is that in fact one could go down this line of reasoning as physical reality is that thing is apparently a bat even in "really" it's not; to this point, our brain is receiving "correct" sensory information, and the reality is something odd, something beyond our typical realm of comprehension and what our senses can possibly inform us of. I wouldn't choose to go down this path for a myriad of reasons, but I am just saying I can see logic in it.

[zornwil]

I think we might be getting a little too philosophical here without the philosophy measurably advancing our understanding of the problem. There's deception involved, that is probably as far as we need to go. Whether it is brain or eyes probably doesn't matter to the metagame (but might be vital to an individual power description....)

If both shapeshift and images deceive the SOMETHING, it seems to me the only difference between the powers (except the PER roll, which could be solved with an adder) is the effect that touch shapeshift has as against touch images. Every other appearance seems to me to work exactly the same way if it it is changed with images or shapeshift, and even touch SS/Images work the same way EXCEPT that touch SS allows you to include inanimate objects that wouldn't normally need or use a PER roll in the deception, like the ropes binding you or the hole you are trying to squeeze through, which you can't do with touch Images. i can't think of any differences for any other senses...can you?
I think the only significant separation for non-touch is that the SS is absolute, which implies (but only implies) that unlike Images the production of "shape" is something "real" somehow, although this difference is rather abstract in a game which relies on reasoning from effect.

[zornwil]

I think the key element here is that the definition is made when the Powers are bought, not when they are used. It stands to reason that you can't buy any Power (even in VPP) that says "the SFX is that I change shape into any shape other than my own". It's too powerful an effect. That extra power costs points, and those points should be spent on Shape Shift. If you disagree, please allow me to play a Shape Shifter in your next campaign and I'll have your head spinning.
I agree with the essentials of what you're saying here, and that's related to what I'm saying re that physical materality of changing shape has a utility all its own, but I would say to KS' point that the various attributes/SFX of the abilities of the VPP may allow for some changes, such as the VPP's flight may make wings appear and the VPP's HKA may make claws shoot out on the hand.

[Sean Waters]

I think the only significant separation for non-touch is that the SS is absolute, which implies (but only implies) that unlike Images the production of "shape" is something "real" somehow, although this difference is rather abstract in a game which relies on reasoning from effect.


I agree: which means there seems one less reason to me to have shape shift at all, certainly in its present form: you can do practically anything 'physical' that shapeshift allows with the contortionist and double jointed skill/talent.

NB the 10 point adder I suggest for images 'perfect' would only operate for personal appearance transformations, so that it worked as shapeshift does now. I'm not suggesting you should be able to make a 'perfect' image at range of, for example, a wall.

[zornwil]

I agree: which means there seems one less reason to me to have shape shift at all, certainly in its present form: you can do practically anything 'physical' that shapeshift allows with the contortionist and double jointed skill/talent.

NB the 10 point adder I suggest for images 'perfect' would only operate for personal appearance transformations, so that it worked as shapeshift does now. I'm not suggesting you should be able to make a 'perfect' image at range of, for example, a wall.
The problem I have is that Shapeshift is "body-affecting" and lumping it in with Images makes both more complex. I think Shapeshift is better left to more of what it was in 4th edition with the adders for taking additional Senses away from the "3 sense groups" ruile which is standard anyway for all powers.

[PhilFleischmann]

I agree: which means there seems one less reason to me to have shape shift at all, certainly in its present form: you can do practically anything 'physical' that shapeshift allows with the contortionist and double jointed skill/talent.
Actually, you need a lot more than that. See the other SS thread: forming into the shape of a ladder to allow teammates to climb you. Forming the shape of a bucket so you can scoop up water, etc.

The "less reason to have Shape Shift at all" is only if you interpret it the way Killer Shrike does (which you are certainly entitled to do). However, the rulebook says that SS can actually change your shape and Steve Long has said so as well in either FAQs or on the Questions board, I forget which. He gave the example of the snake form being able to slither through snake-sized holes.

If I can SS into a bathtub and someone tries to fill me with water, what happens? Assume that I don't have a VPP to go with the SS, nor Multiform, nor any other specific "bathtub-related" powers listed on my character sheet. Does the water run out all over the floor because I'm not *really* a bathtub? Or does the shape of my body actually hold the water? If the former, then it isn't very effective even at deceiving senses, because the would-be bather will immediately know that I'm not really a bathtub - so much for deceiving the senses. If I can hold the water, then I am doing something more than merely deceiving senses, because the water has no senses.

[zornwil]

Actually, you need a lot more than that. See the other SS thread: forming into the shape of a ladder to allow teammates to climb you. Forming the shape of a bucket so you can scoop up water, etc.

The "less reason to have Shape Shift at all" is only if you interpret it the way Killer Shrike does (which you are certainly entitled to do). However, the rulebook says that SS can actually change your shape and Steve Long has said so as well in either FAQs or on the Questions board, I forget which. He gave the example of the snake form being able to slither through snake-sized holes.

If I can SS into a bathtub and someone tries to fill me with water, what happens? Assume that I don't have a VPP to go with the SS, nor Multiform, nor any other specific "bathtub-related" powers listed on my character sheet. Does the water run out all over the floor because I'm not *really* a bathtub? Or does the shape of my body actually hold the water? If the former, then it isn't very effective even at deceiving senses, because the would-be bather will immediately know that I'm not really a bathtub - so much for deceiving the senses. If I can hold the water, then I am doing something more than merely deceiving senses, because the water has no senses.
Thanks for providing better examples. I can't see how SS can't be seen as an important and real power unto itself without reference to deception or senses.

[Basil]

Activation of Powers covers changing appearance without the need for Shapeshift.
{snip}
In the Animal Form Guy case, if you use your VPP to gain STR, Clinging, and some Damage Resistance and call that your "Ape Form", then Activation of Powers allows you to look like an Ape if you want.
{snip}

Excuse me, but I can't find anything in 5th Ed. to that effect. Indeed, I can only find (via the index) one section called "Activating Powers". It says:

"Unless a Power's description says otherwise, activating or 'turning on' a Power is a Zero-Phase Action, even if activating it causes or requires physical changes in the character,...(for example, the character transforms from a human into a man-beast,...)... and switching slots in a Power Framework are also Zero-Phase Actions."

I don't see how switching/activating the Powers in a VPP can be considered "transform[ing] into a man-beast". If the character actually alters his physical being, that is not the same a gaining STR, DEX, a HTH (claws) attack, etc. A different physical configuration should be done via a separate power. That IMO is what the above quote is referring to, it is not saying "you can get a free Alter Self effect by turning on/off a Power or three."

[zornwil]

Excuse me, but I can't find anything in 5th Ed. to that effect. Indeed, I can only find (via the index) one section called "Activating Powers". It says:

"Unless a Power's description says otherwise, activating or 'turning on' a Power is a Zero-Phase Action, even if activating it causes or requires physical changes in the character,...(for example, the character transforms from a human into a man-beast,...)... and switching slots in a Power Framework are also Zero-Phase Actions."

I don't see how switching/activating the Powers in a VPP can be considered "transform[ing] into a man-beast". If the character actually alters his physical being, that is not the same a gaining STR, DEX, a HTH (claws) attack, etc. A different physical configuration should be done via a separate power. That IMO is what the above quote is referring to, it is not saying "you can get a free Alter Self effect by turning on/off a Power or three."
I think there's some leeway between just having your hands transform to bestial paws with claws and getting a free "alter self".

By itself, in my opinon, powers can alter your appearance greatly but your base self should remain identifiable in all "guises" and the guises can bear no serious SFX of their own although the powers' SFX are very much in play. I would allow VPP powers to change appearance somewhat, but you'd have to - in my opinion - not only look like "yourself" (or at least your heroic self) but also have some theme to the changes, along the lines of some theme required of your VPP. In the absence of such theme, I would declare that then the changes to yourself are solely linked to the power - you might gain claws but the rest of your body doesn't get hairy or such.

For example, the actual Animal Man character during the period he went from one animal's body to the next as well as at any period he could transform and be entirely apparent as the animal he transformed into must have either Shape Shift or Multiform, not a VPP of just different powers. However, an Animal Man who has a human face and looks "like" the animals but gains no non-power-specific abiltiies can just have a VPP.

[Sean Waters]

Thanks for providing better examples. I can't see how SS can't be seen as an important and real power unto itself without reference to deception or senses.


Oh I don't know...if you can actually change into a snake, you may have a 6 inch diameter and be able to fit through a pipe, but it also means you're 15 feet long, so you've got stretching from somewhere (albeit in a limited form), which would be a no-no according to the rules.

Actually I think stretching is too expensive, or at least that the price structure is wrong, but that's probably best discussed elsewhere.

I have two specific problems with shape shifting as it is at the moment:

1. The only bit of shape shifting that is actually changing shape is one aspect of touch shapeshift: nothing else allows you to actually do anything that requires a different shape...to me this means that the actual 'being a different shape' bit of shape shifting feels 'tacked on'. If you are going to tack it on I'd rather it was done with an adder or something rather than as an aspect of touch shapeshifting (which should only allow you to vary your texture, temperature, etc).

2. (I know this is paradoxical in the light of the above) The ability to change shape costs too much. The power does a whole raft of things, like changing your smell, which is kind of cool, but if I just want to change shape, I want to look, for instance, like a washing machine, I need to cover every sense group and guess at all sorts of unusal sense groups in order to be seen as that shape. Touch, that's an obvious one, and sight. I need to cover hearing, as someone might have sonar, which detects shape. Smell? Well it is possible that someone could detect shape based on smell, even though that is not what it is usually used for, same with taste. Some goit could have built spacial awareness based on taste, and unusual sense groups....I CAN MAGICALLY SENSE THE SHAPE YOU ARE! How do I cover that?

My solution (working within the current framework) would be to define a new sense group (the 'shape' sense group), which would then mean that ANY sense that detected shape would perceive that the target has the assumed shape, even if they have other ways of knowing that isn't the true shape, they still perceive it as the shape it IS. Generally you'd want touch and sight shapeshifting, but it wouldn't actually be necessary: without them anyone who sees or touches the shapeshifted charatcer will know that they are not what their shape suggests, not becasue they are not the shape, but becasue it is obvious to the appropriate senses.

Should it be a targetting ot non-targetting sense group? Don't know, but probably non-targetting in my opinion. Shapeshifting would then be relatively cheap and easy to build, but if you wanted increased utilty you'd need to pay for it.

I'd also break Imitation down: you could buy it as a +5 level to look like a particular but generic object, item or person, or at the +10 level to look like a specific object, item or person. Without the adder, you can certainly change shape but no one is being fooled that you are anything specific - you'd use it when you wanted to, for instance, change your shape to escape bonds or just confuse your scent, or look like you haven't got a face at all.

It would still be a limited form of shape shifting: you could do things based on sfx. I'd allow you to turn into a snake to get through a small hole, but you could still only strike at adjacent targets unless you bought stretching. You could become a bucket and carry water. You could wrap yourself around an opponent and maybe get a couple of points bonus to your strength roll for grabs.

This may need a bit of polishing, I'm just thinking out loud, but what do you think?

[zornwil]

I don't really agree with that approach. I think it's reasonable/expected that a mentalist or mystic or several other unusual sorts could detect "you are not what you appear to be." In my mind this is simply a normal extension of how Detects and Enhanced Senses work in general, and how Invisibility is similarly dealt with.

To me, the Sensory aspect of Shape Shift, while an important aspect of it, must be seen as added in 5th to a power that's been around a long time and generally was accepted (to my knowledge) as working pretty well, and not having a logical issue ASIDE from understandably addressing "Hmmm, how DOES this work against differents senses?" To me, then, the entire fault of 5th revolves around it trying to deal contortions to the power when in fact all that really needed to be done was to indicate that SS has the same "visibility", if you will, as any power, in that 3 Sense Groups must be able to detect it. One simply buys IPE from there, or, alternatively, have a cost structure, as suggested in 5th's version of SS, to buy off individual Senses or such if one doesn't want to be detected by 3 Sense Groups (which typically are going to be Unusual, Mental, and one other one in keeping with how many SSes I've seen work, either Smell or Hearing or Touch, with Touch often being "hmm, he doesn't feel furry exactly, he feels slimey and furry?!?).

[Sean Waters]

I don't really agree with that approach. I think it's reasonable/expected that a mentalist or mystic or several other unusual sorts could detect "you are not what you appear to be." In my mind this is simply a normal extension of how Detects and Enhanced Senses work in general, and how Invisibility is similarly dealt with.


I respectfully suggest that you're not thinking through the sense based approach that Fred and Julie have foisted upon us. I'm not suggesting that any sense shouldn't be able to detect that you are 'not what you appear to be' if you haven't spent points for that sense. I'm suggesting that no nesnse should be able to detect that you are not the shape that you shifted into because you are that shape. If you have shapeshift against say sight only but with the 'shape sense' group too, the shape you appear to be visually is the shape you actually are, and looking at the character will not give any clue that they are not what they appear to be to the sight group.

If you have sonar, defined (as FRED) as 'detecting physical objects' then you detect a physical object that is the shape that it appears to be according to your vision, and if all the sense does is detect shape then you remain fooled. However, sonar built with discriminatory will be able to detect more than physical shape: say the sonic reflectiveness of the surface, so although it appears to be a washing machine, the sonar waves are not bouncing off it as if it is made of metal, more as if it were made of flesh....

Even a normal hearing PER roll might be able to hear the washing machine breathing...

I would say that 'shape' is a perfectly valid sense group: a sense group is in effect just a defined sfx. Hearing, for instance, covers the detection of pressure waves travelling through the atmosphere around you, sight covers the detection of electromagnetic radiation within certain energetic bands, but it is all just a label that you are putting to sfx. Obvious labels, I grant you, as they correspond to our experience with our own senses, but if a sense or sense group is just that way becasue that is how you (or Fred) defined it, it is still an sfx (one of the few powers that has built in sfx!), and so defining another sfx as 'shape' shouldn't really be a reach at all.

Moreover this takes the shape aspect away from the touch sense group. This has two major advantages to my mind:

1. Touch is not the only sense, by any means at all, that detects shape, so why shoud we need the touch sense group to actually change shape?

2. If you have to have the touch group then it covers things like temperature and texture: in the above example, you would be able to tell it was not a washing machine by touch even though it would feel like it was the shape of a washing machine as it would feel like flesh in the shape of a washing machine. If you had thick gloves on that prevented you feeling temperature and texture, you may be fooled, but not otherwise.

[zornwil]

Well, in part, I'm saying I don't accept the way in which 5th has employed Senses against Shape Shift.

I'm not saying your notion is without merit, but I think that there's a flaw from my perspective in that the idea that some sense see "through" the Shape Shift doesn't mean they see the true shape (necessarily) simply so much as, per SFX, they see that the thing is likely not that which it appears to be. For example, a washing machine that has a mind is definitely not a normal washing machine. That washing machine, when running, might not make quite the right grinding sound, sounding either too much like someone imitating machinery. And supernaturally, it can be seen it has a soul, again setting it apart from a washing machine. None of which violates that in fact its shape is apparently that of a washing machine.

As to sonar and such, I'm pretty sure there's some comment in the FAQ or possibly even in the new book, that according to SFX touch-related senses can be judged as such instead of their "actual" sense group.

I think taking Shape Shift that is visible to Touch simply means that the shape doesn't feel "right".

Of course, as stated, I'm deliberately saying Shape Shift in 5th is wrongly constructed.

To assume it is rightly constructed and then to apply your idea with "Shape" as an additional sense, I think that's rather intrigueing and might be useful, especially if you apply the "Shape" sense to the other senses accordingly as you suggest above with Sonar. It certainly does get away from the implied hand-waving required by Shape Shift as it stands. I'm not opposed to your idea, if Shape Shift must stay as it is, and it probably is an improvement, I'd have to think on it. It does certainly make it easier to differentiate "Touch" versus "Shape", making an elegant way to say "this has truly shifted shape". I'd assume Shape would be the default Sense Group. Would Shape be a Sense Group primarily composed of already-existing Senses such as Sonar, Radar, Touch, etc.?

[Sean Waters]

To me, then, the entire fault of 5th revolves around it trying to deal contortions to the power when in fact all that really needed to be done was to indicate that SS has the same "visibility", if you will, as any power, in that 3 Sense Groups must be able to detect it. One simply buys IPE from there, or, alternatively, have a cost structure, as suggested in 5th's version of SS, to buy off individual Senses or such if one doesn't want to be detected by 3 Sense Groups (which typically are going to be Unusual, Mental, and one other one in keeping with how many SSes I've seen work, either Smell or Hearing or Touch, with Touch often being "hmm, he doesn't feel furry exactly, he feels slimey and furry?!?).


I'm not sure you can do it this way as powers should be not just detectable, but obvious unless they have IPE, so you'd need to buy IPE for all shapeshifts, even if you managed to cover all 5 normal sense groups and a raft of unusual ones too. Think of it for, say an energy blast: if a player said that his energy blast was only detectable by mental senses, magical senses and the touch, would you allow it?

In effect, SS turns round the usual position and says that the power is detectable by ALL senses, unless you buy the bit of the power that effects that sense specifically.

I agree with your previously stated position that 4th edition wasn't broken, it is a shame they fixed it: I'm just trying to find a way to make Fred SS work for me, and (hopefully) do it in such a way that it helps more generally too. I may not succeed, but all the prat-falls will give thr crowds something to laugh at... :)

To give it it's due SS in Fred is better at doing some things than in 4th ed, for example voice impersonation or changing your smell. You'd have done the former with images, and I suppose you'd have tried to do the latter with images too, only it would only last as long as you were within range and spending END. Fred SS (to my understanding at least) allows you to leave a permanent scent trial of a badger in your wake instead of your own.

I really think that shapeshift and invisibilty should be part of the same power: as it stands you'd just stick them in a multipower to get the ability to change your appearance to a sense or not appear to it at all.

[Sean Waters]

It does certainly make it easier to differentiate "Touch" versus "Shape", making an elegant way to say "this has truly shifted shape". I'd assume Shape would be the default Sense Group. Would Shape be a Sense Group primarily composed of already-existing Senses such as Sonar, Radar, Touch, etc.?

I think that there is some overlap between sense groups already; the 'shape' group would operate against the sfx 'detects shape', whatever the 'base' sense used to detect it. It would probably operate as a notional sense group specifically for SS rather than one I'd necessarily want to introduce as a new enhanced sense group: you wouldn't be building any detects based on the sense group, but any sense group has the potential abilty to detect shape. You could also use it for (if you could think of a reason) darkness, images, invisibility and flash. For example if you flashed the shape group, someone seeing you would be able to say that you were Zornwil, because that is what you look like, but they would be uncertain as they can't actually see what shape you are. The flash would effect (potentially) every sense group, but would not disable any sense except to the extent that that sense detects shape. I honestly can't think why anyone would want to do this.

[zornwil]

I'm not sure you can do it this way as powers should be not just detectable, but obvious unless they have IPE, so you'd need to buy IPE for all shapeshifts, even if you managed to cover all 5 normal sense groups and a raft of unusual ones too. Think of it for, say an energy blast: if a player said that his energy blast was only detectable by mental senses, magical senses and the touch, would you allow it?

Good point. And this is probably another reason why the Senses approach to Shapeshift changed so radically. I'd suppose I'd suggest that Shape Shift, by nature of what it is, should have a lower standard, similar to how Mental Powers do.


In effect, SS turns round the usual position and says that the power is detectable by ALL senses, unless you buy the bit of the power that effects that sense specifically.

I agree with your previously stated position that 4th edition wasn't broken, it is a shame they fixed it: I'm just trying to find a way to make Fred SS work for me, and (hopefully) do it in such a way that it helps more generally too. I may not succeed, but all the prat-falls will give thr crowds something to laugh at... :)

To give it it's due SS in Fred is better at doing some things than in 4th ed, for example voice impersonation or changing your smell. You'd have done the former with images, and I suppose you'd have tried to do the latter with images too, only it would only last as long as you were within range and spending END. Fred SS (to my understanding at least) allows you to leave a permanent scent trial of a badger in your wake instead of your own.

I really think that shapeshift and invisibilty should be part of the same power: as it stands you'd just stick them in a multipower to get the ability to change your appearance to a sense or not appear to it at all.

It's an interesting notion to put SS and Invisibiity together. In concept I agree but I think mechanically it's tricky. I'm still of the feeling that, even with the changes made in 5th and even accepting those, that Shape Shift should be a discrete power.

[Sean Waters]

It's an interesting notion to put SS and Invisibiity together. In concept I agree but I think mechanically it's tricky. I'm still of the feeling that, even with the changes made in 5th and even accepting those, that Shape Shift should be a discrete power.

You are probably quite right. When I get hold of a train of thought I sometimes can't let go...here's an example :)

I don't have the book with me, but I'd do it this way:

Perfect Sense Effecting and Changing Shape Power (catchy, eh?)

To effect a sense you pay 10 points for a targetting sense and 5 points for a non targetting sense. You define whether the power works to prevent detection by the sense (invisibility) or prevent it detecting the true nature of the subject (shapeshifting). For a +10 adder you can have both. All the usual adders for both invisibilty and shapeshift apply. You can buy the shape notional sense group which allows you to appear to be a particular shape to every sense that detects shape (but only the part of that sense that detects shape) and (for shapeshhifting only) to your environment ('real' shapeshifting). To not be detected at all by the environment with the sense notional group, buy desolid.

[zornwil]

You are probably quite right. When I get hold of a train of thought I sometimes can't let go...here's an example :)

I don't have the book with me, but I'd do it this way:

Perfect Sense Effecting and Changing Shape Power (catchy, eh?)

To effect a sense you pay 10 points for a targetting sense and 5 points for a non targetting sense. You define whether the power works to prevent detection by the sense (invisibility) or prevent it detecting the true nature of the subject (shapeshifting). For a +10 adder you can have both. All the usual adders for both invisibilty and shapeshift apply. You can buy the shape notional sense group which allows you to appear to be a particular shape to every sense that detects shape (but only the part of that sense that detects shape) and (for shapeshhifting only) to your environment ('real' shapeshifting). To not be detected at all by the environment with the sense notional group, buy desolid.
I'm onto other things at the moment, will have to check later how this compares if costed out to Invisibility as it is now. As I think about it, it does make sense that you just buy up the Senses to get to Invisibility.

[Sean Waters]

There will be situations in which looking like something or someone is more useful than not being seen at all: you want to look like a general persuade the guard to let your buddies into the military base, or like a wall to stop the villains running into the control room, I suppose.

[zornwil]

Invisibility and Shape Shift do share that they are both Body-affecting and Deception in terms of Senses. There is also a nice SFX bleed in that sometimes Invisibility's SFX is looking like something normal among people and/or scenery (which is essentially a Shape Shift). You might be onto something. I'm expecting company so don't want to sit down with the book for what would be a concentrated comparison of costs, but I would well imagine costs could be handled.

I think that this still exempts Images because Images are distinct in that they make no material effect on anything (whereas Invisibility actually turns one invisible and Shape Shift actually transforms shape), however, that doesn't mean that it might not work as KS indicated, so will have to think more on that, now that a good link between Invis and SS has been established.

[Sean Waters]

I'm off to bed anyway: have a good visit.

[zornwil]

Thanks, hope you had a good rest by the time you see this.

[Sean Waters]

Thanks: I am rested somewhat.

Invisibility is 20/10 for targetting and non-targetting groups, SS is 10/5, so there's a problem there to start, but I suppose you could buy it at 10/5 to shapeshift, 20/10 to become invisible and then pay either an adder or an advantage to do both: +10 or +1/4, something like that?

As you said before, it feels quite reasonable to buy low and pay more for more utility. I don't see it changing any time soon, but it might be something to think about come 6th Ed.?

[PhilFleischmann]

Oh I don't know...if you can actually change into a snake, you may have a 6 inch diameter and be able to fit through a pipe, but it also means you're 15 feet long, so you've got stretching from somewhere (albeit in a limited form), which would be a no-no according to the rules.
Not necessarily. A snake doesn't precariously balance on the tip of its tail and can grab things and make attacks 15 feet away. It's going to need more than half of its length on the ground for leverage and balance. When a snake strikes farther than this, it is moving, i.e. a move and strike.

[SleepyDrug]

Let's take a simple example to solve this problem.

If I use shapeshift to make my wrists massively thicker in an attempt to avoid being cuffed or manacled by the local police.

We have two possibilities: either

A) My change is just a sense-affecting deception and i'll get cuffed because my wrists are not too big to fit inside the cuffs.

or...

B) My change is real and my body actually altered shape; hence, I will not be cuffed because the cuffs cannot fit around my wrists.

No other power is good for creating this effect. Either Shapeshift is a sense-affecting power and does not really occur a la Images or Invisibility. Or Shapeshift is a body-altering power a la Growth, or Extra Limbs and does really occur.

Which explanation fits the above

[PhilFleischmann]

The way SS in 5th works leads some to put the emphasis on the senses rather than on the shape shifting. I understand why some do this, but I don't think that was the intent. The actual changing of shape *is* the power. If anything, the additional senses should be considered to be the adders. In the change from 4th to 5th, it was realized that changes that affect other senses add utility to the power - and therefore should add extra cost. If you can change into a lion, that's useful, but if you can change into a lion and make a real lion's roar sound, that's more useful. So 5th allows you to add on the Hearing group to make sounds that you couldn't ordinarily make. Likewise, smelling like a skunk or a rosebush, is more useful than merely being the shape of a skunk or a rosebush, so you can add on the Smell group as well if you want.

Perhaps SS should have been structured to have a base cost for changing shape (depending on the number of possible different shapes), and then provided adders to allow you to make the sounds and/or smells of the new shape. This would almost work, except that sometimes, you might want to roar like a lion or smell like a ponderosa pine without changing your shape at all. The 5E version allows you to do this by buying Hearing only or Smell only if you want.

After all the discussions about SS on the boards, I'm convinced that the 5e way is fine and that the way to build Plasticman's SS is Sight, Touch, Sound, with a limitation (-1/2? maybe more) "Can't alter color, texture, or voice." And the way to build Beast Boy's SS is Sight, Touch, Sound, Smell, with a limitation (-1/4? or so) "Can't alter color." Both would probably need a VPP as well, or in the case of Beast Boy, maybe no SS and just a VPP of Multiforms.

On page 70 of FREd (and I'm sure it must be in 5ER somewhere as well), it says that powers can be used in miscellaneous utility ways for free - without having to add on a VPP for every conceivable use of ones powers. It gives the example of someone with fire powers being able to create enough warmth to prevent his friends from freezing in an otherwise very cold environment, without having to buy CE separately. To me, this is on the same level as allowing a shape changing guy to form a bucket and scoop water, or to ooze out of ropes - without having to buy a separate power to represent this.

[Sean Waters]

Not necessarily. A snake doesn't precariously balance on the tip of its tail and can grab things and make attacks 15 feet away. It's going to need more than half of its length on the ground for leverage and balance. When a snake strikes farther than this, it is moving, i.e. a move and strike.


...which is why I said 'albeit in a limited form'. I fully accept what you say, but you can still use, say non-combat stretching: change into a rope, tie off one end, jump off the building, untie yourself. If you can use it a bit, where do you draw the line. If Plastica decides to change into a form with arms twice as long as usual, even though that probably isn't as useful as full stretching, does she get 1" reach for free?

[Sean Waters]

Let's take a simple example to solve this problem.

If I use shapeshift to make my wrists massively thicker in an attempt to avoid being cuffed or manacled by the local police.

We have two possibilities: either

A) My change is just a sense-affecting deception and i'll get cuffed because my wrists are not too big to fit inside the cuffs.

or...

B) My change is real and my body actually altered shape; hence, I will not be cuffed because the cuffs cannot fit around my wrists.

No other power is good for creating this effect. Either Shapeshift is a sense-affecting power and does not really occur a la Images or Invisibility. Or Shapeshift is a body-altering power a la Growth, or Extra Limbs and does really occur.

Which explanation fits the above

...and one of my complaints is that it does both.

If you buy touch chsapeshift, you change shape, if you buy anything else you only appear to (see the FAQ). That makes no sense to me: why should touch enable you to actually change shape and not just appear to change shape to the touch sense as it works with every other sense?

If you look back you'll see my idea of a 'notional sense group': shape. You buy this and you actually do change shape, and that shape change is real and perceived by every sense that can perceive shape BUT it will not fool ANY sense into thinking you are anything other than what you started out as. You may be the shape of a snake but you look like a human that has been squeezed into that shape, sound human, smell human etc.

If you don't buy shape group then you can look and feel like something else but not actually change shape.

It works, but unfortunately against my other objecttion which is that shapeshift is too expensive now: this would make it more so.

[Sean Waters]

Perhaps SS should have been structured to have a base cost for changing shape (depending on the number of possible different shapes), and then provided adders to allow you to make the sounds and/or smells of the new shape. This would almost work, except that sometimes, you might want to roar like a lion or smell like a ponderosa pine without changing your shape at all. The 5E version allows you to do this by buying Hearing only or Smell only if you want.

...

After all the discussions about SS on the boards, I'm convinced that the 5e way is fine and that the way to build Plasticman's SS is Sight, Touch, Sound, with a limitation (-1/2? maybe more) "Can't alter color, texture, or voice." And the way to build Beast Boy's SS is Sight, Touch, Sound, Smell, with a limitation (-1/4? or so) "Can't alter color." Both would probably need a VPP as well, or in the case of Beast Boy, maybe no SS and just a VPP of Multiforms.


We'll probably have to agree to differ, but can I say the reason that *some* people put emphasis on senses when reading the 5ed version is because that is the way it is written now.

'True shapeshifting' is touch shapeshifting with a limitation? Crazy talk. If you are going to call it shape shift then shouldn't the unmodified power work that way, or at least have the option of working that way?

Anyway, you have adders in the system already to limit what you can change into: not being able to alter colour, for example, means that you have a limited group of things you can change into (green things).

What is the point of having all these other senses? IMO so that you can fool people into thinking that you are something that you are not. I can see that is a useful structure. The actual changing shape bit has the feel of something tacked on afterwards, trying to put it right in the FAQ when it was realised the power as originally presented didn't actually allow change of shape. I'm right or I'm wrong: who knows, but I'd like to see the power present a way to change shape seperately from the sense deceiving aspects of it all: it makes no more sense to me to say that 'true shape change' is found in the touch group than to say it is found in the sight group; it has a very arbitrary feel to it, and looking at the discussions I am not the only one who feels that way.

Of course you can make the power work with limitations and advantages and so on, but frankly I don't have to want to tweak the power to obtain what, to my mind, is the basic effect.

Finally, taking out the 'actual' shape shift aspect (which is not really that central to this new interpretation anyway), the power doesn't do anything that images with a high PER roll modifier doesn't do cheaper.

[PhilFleischmann]

'True shapeshifting' is touch shapeshifting with a limitation? Crazy talk. If you are going to call it shape shift then shouldn't the unmodified power work that way, or at least have the option of working that way?
I'm not sure what you mean by "true shapeshifting." If I can change into something else all the way down to the cellular level, and thereby be perceived differently by all senses, I'd assume you'd call that "true shapeshifting." If I can change my shape, color, texture, and voice, isn't that also "true shapeshifting"? Is Plastic Man's power "true shapeshifting"? I think you mean that all of the above are "true shapeshifting" - they are all actually changing shape, not just projecting a hologram around themselves. But the first is more powerful than the other two, and the last is more limited. Plas can become an elephant, but it's a caucasian-colored elephant with black, human-like hair, red and yellow spandex, and goggles. And he can't make a realistic elephant's trumpet sound. Even though his SS affects both sight and touch, it is limited in that he can't alter his coloration, texture, or voice - is that not worth a limitation? Am I "crazy" for noticing that he isn't gray?


Anyway, you have adders in the system already to limit what you can change into: not being able to alter colour, for example, means that you have a limited group of things you can change into (green things).
Beastboy can only change into animal forms. That's the limited group. He then has the limitation that the forms he takes are always green instead of the animal's natural color. The can't turn into a green plant or a green trashcan or a green car, or a green stop sign. What would be the difference, in the way you would build them, between Beastboy (any animal, but green), and Any animal, colored naturally? To me, the best way is that the second simply buys "Any Animal" as the group. Beast boy does the same thing, but applies a limitation "Can't change color (always green)." It's not easy being Beastboy.


The actual changing shape bit has the feel of something tacked on afterwards,
I agree, but you don't have to interpret it that way. This is why people (myself included) get so confused and frustrated with the way the power is written/priced.


trying to put it right in the FAQ when it was realised the power as originally presented didn't actually allow change of shape.
But it does allow change of shape. It's right there in the first sentence of the power description. IDHMBIFOM, but it says something like, "A character with this power can change his shape as perceived by one or more senses." That one sentence may be the source of all the disagreement. Some put the emphasis on "as perceived by one or more senses." I put the emphasis on "can change his shape." It doesn't say, "the character is perceived differently by one or more senses." It says, "change his shape." This change of shape is peceptible by one or more senses. Particularly, sight and touch. Technically sonar and radar as well, but these can be hand-waved, as Steve Long himself has recommended.


I'm right or I'm wrong: who knows, but I'd like to see the power present a way to change shape seperately from the sense deceiving aspects of it all: it makes no more sense to me to say that 'true shape change' is found in the touch group than to say it is found in the sight group; it has a very arbitrary feel to it, and looking at the discussions I am not the only one who feels that way.
And I agree with you there, a base SS power could just say, "You change shape. Changing shape is obviously perceiveable by sight and touch. If you also want to change your smell or the sounds you make, you can buy these adders." However, someone might want to change their coloration or texture (sight or touch) without changing the other. Buying the two sense groups individually allows for greater flexibility, though it may be a little klunky, and more like Images than Shape Shift.


Of course you can make the power work with limitations and advantages and so on, but frankly I don't have to want to tweak the power to obtain what, to my mind, is the basic effect.
That depends on what you consider to be the basic effect. Is changing shape only, like Plasticman, the basic effect? Then you need an Adder or an Advantage to allow changing color and texture as well. That would be just as much tweaking as applying a limitation to prevent changes in color and texture.

This goes back to my original complaint about the power. Because HERO already has the Sense Group concept in it, they decided to base SS off of it. They could have (and quite possibly should have) constructed SS like this: X points to change shape only, +Y to change color, +Z to change Texture, etc. (+W to change smell, +V to change voice, imitation, cellular, etc.)

One problem is the whole sense group constuct itself. Talking about "the five senses" is in some ways almost as much of an oversimplification of reality as "the four elements." Touch consists of many different aspects: pressure, temperature, moisture, texture, pain, kinesthetics, etc. Likewise with sight: light, color, focus, depth, motion, reflectivity. Balance and the kinesthetic sense (which occurs independent of touch) are not even mentioned among the senses in HERO.


Finally, taking out the 'actual' shape shift aspect (which is not really that central to this new interpretation anyway), the power doesn't do anything that images with a high PER roll modifier doesn't do cheaper.
On this, we agree.

[Sean Waters]

D'y'know, Phil, I think we probably agree on a lot!

'True shapeshifting', at least as I meant it it the ability to change shape as far as your environment is concerned, i.e. fit through the pipe you couldn't fit through before you shape shifted. Everything else is fooling senses, albeit perfectly.

Let me give you an example of what really confuses me, based on the 'change into a snake' thing in the FAQ.

There's this pipe. It has a six inch diameter (that'll be 15 cms, not 12 metres..) and I have shapeshift applied to every sense you can think of. So long as you have thought of touch, then the shape you appear to be is the shape you are, and if you've shapeshifted into a 20 foot long snake with a 5.5 inch diameter you can fit through the pipe and if an attack is launched against any part of you then you will feel it: your appearance and actual 'environmental' shape do not differ.

Now, same thing every sense, but this time not touch, you 'are' shapeshifted by the definition of the power, buy only as far as the perception of others goes. That could be enormously useful, however...

I've shapeshifted into a snake that could fit through the pipe if I'd had the touch sense group included, but I didn't. I can't fit through the pipe, but I appear to every sense but touch as if I can, so I must have some part of me outside apparent snake shape and it must be invisible to every sense but touch. The snake is about 20 feet long, and is stretched out in a straight line. Two nasty men stamp on the snake, one on the head, one on the end of the tail. Do I actually take damage from both attacks? I'm not 'really' 20 feet long, I'm just perceived that way - not to touch though. To touch I'm still 6 feet long, and not thin enough to fit through a pipe.

I really can not reconcile how this works in game. It is fine to say 'base it on sfx' but what should they be and how would they work?

If you say well you are the shape you appear to be, so both attacks damage you, then it makes no sense that you can not fit through the pipe. If you say that you retain your human shape, this is a huge combat advantage: pick a shape that you don't occupy and half the attacks launched at you will automatically miss.

To me, seperating the 'environmental' shapeshift (or notional shape sense group as I have previously called it) makes it easier to understand what is happening, but I'd have to rule that without that you can only shift into something that is basically the same shape as you, otherwise you run into the problems I mentioned above. If you wanted to be a shape that did not conform to your 'real' shape and you were not 'environmentally' shape shifting, yo'd need to buy invisiblility and images.

It is perfectly possible I am being dim about this (more than possible) and any light you could shed would be much appreciated.

[Blue Jogger]

Ok, let's take a counterexample and see if it is any clearer.

I'm have a power whereby I can punch people at range. This is defined as Energy Blast because that's how I bought it. People who watch me use my power describe me as my arm stretches out and hits people and then snaps back, because that's the special effect.

I see a pipe, looking down the pipe, I see a villian and try to hit him with my superpunch. I miss him and instead hit the button that instantly turns the value in the middle of the pipe. What happens?

If special effect-wise, I really used stretching, then my unarmored arm really was in the pipe and is now severed and I should pull back a bloody stump (going completely by defined special effect). This is worth a feedback limitation on my punch (and a nasty glare at the GM). But if I want to be able to grab something over there and bring it back to my hand, then I need another power. It quickly looks like Stretching is the other power that I should have. Even though, I can punch people much farther away than I can grab something and yank it to me.

If I'm allowed to say, it just looks like my arm, but really it's a manifestation of my pyschological need to hit people at range with my fist. (Hey, why not?) Then I might believe that my arm was severed and react as if my arm was severed, but it's not really since it is only perceived as my fist and special effect-wise, it's just manifestion unconnected to the thing attached to my shoulder. I obviously can't reach across the room and grab the remote, since it is my pyschological need for the remote won't help me. However, I might buy Telekinesis and Fine Manipulation and say, "My manifestation is now quasi-real. I can now use it to pick up the remote, or just push buttons from here".

[Sean Waters]

You can of course build anything you like any way you like, but if you are defining your EB as your arm stretching, I'd make you take advantages: it would appear that the attack can be blocked with a normal HTH manoeuvre, whereas you'd need missile deflect, so opponents are potentially wasting defensive actions; and a feedback type limitation. I think 'but I've got a really good concept...' masks a lot of actually quite bad ideas. Mind you, if it 'really' was your arm stretching I'd want you to buy it with stretching (limited 'only to punch and direct only', so it would be quite cheap). If you reckon your 'arm' can stretch 250", I'd be asking you to look for another sfx...

Are you changing shape? Well, you are if your arm is actually stretching, but you wouldn't use shapeshift, you'd use stretching.

I've been thinking about that, and I've becoming convinced that the 'environmental shapeshift' should be taken from shape shift entirely and put into stretching.

Think about it. Most of the examples I can think of from comics are either shapeshifters that basically retain their overall form but the details change (like Mystique form the X Men), or who 'become' another creature with different powers, which is best modeled with multiform (Beast Boy was mentioned earlier in the thread: I'm sure he's a multiform).

Actual shape shifters are rare. Plastic Man has been mentioned, but can I suggest Mr Fantastic?

He can squeeze through gaps, change his apparent size, change the shape of his body. I've never seen him mimic anyone, but then I don't read FF that often.

IMO he's doing all that with stretching, not SS. Stretching already allows for de facto re-distribution of body mass, it could cover the snake situation I mentioned above (the solution would be that with SS you couldn't look like a 20 foot long 5.5 inch diameter snake at all: you could look like a snake of human dimention, but to stretch out you'd need...ta-da...stretching.

Give stretching a 5 point adder: mass re-distribution, which allows you to, in effect, change your shape up to the limits of your stretching power, so that you could , for instance, fit through a narrow gap (but you couldn't look like a snake: you could stretch out so you were long and thin, but no one would ever be fooled unless you took shapeshift), and another 5 point adder: density change - you have to retain your mass, but you can increase your proportional size by 10% per inch of stretching, or reduce it by 5% per inch of stretching (or maybe less if you reduce the cost as I suggest below). Neither gives you any changed abilities, but you can look bigger or fit into a smaller space.

To be honest I'd get rid of velocity damage for stretching: it is just an easter egg there to justify the high cost of the power, and should be built with linked HtH damage, if you want it at all. I'd also make stretching cheaper per inch. Any stretching at all gives you a reach advantage, and after that it only really helps if you beat your opponent's half move. If you just want to get to your opponent, it is far cheaper and generally far more useful to add inches of movement. I'm thinking 2 points for 1", like movement powers.