Heat Vision

[Dust Raven]

I'm sure this has been covered before, but I've forgotten how it's done.

Basically I'm looking for a write up for Superman's heatvision. Not the cut through stuff, that's a duh, but the heat things up effect. The, Oh look! A VIPER Agent! I heat up his rifle and make him drop it!

For this particular character, other minor effects (like cooking food, welding, etc.) will be reserved for a Power Skill, but the heating stuff up is likely to be used frequently enough to warrent an actual write up. So how would you do it?

Thanks!

[RDU Neil]

I don't consider the effect to be anything more than Superman attacking the focus and making it useless. The special effects of the attack dictate that the weapon gets hot. The by-product is that the players can either drop the focus or get burned by it. To me it's no different than the Human Torch doing the same thing. Heat makes things hot.

Totally agree. Anything more is over complicating the issue. Trying to build every possible effect with powers is NOT the same as "reasoning from effect."

Shooting a gun out their hands damages the gun and sends it flying. Melting it damages the weapon and makes it hot enough to drop. SFX man. It solves so many things.

[Hawksmoor]

For Supes

Heat Vision MP +1/2 Variable Advantage
5d6 RKA
15d6 EB vs. Energy
7d6 Minor Transform Object to Superheated Object

Would that work?

Hawksmoor

[Hawksmoor]

Totally agree. Anything more is over complicating the issue. Trying to build every possible effect with powers is NOT the same as "reasoning from effect."

Shooting a gun out their hands damages the gun and sends it flying. Melting it damages the weapon and makes it hot enough to drop. SFX man. It solves so many things.

The problem I think comes in when Wonderwoman then hits a mook with a rifle Supes has just superheated. How much extra damage would it do. Or how much damage would a character take if he really wanted to keep hold of the item. What if the item was really durable but easily conducted heat?

Sometimes handwaving is very bad. Although I *prefer* powerskill to fix these problems. It means that I don't have alot of VPPs running around where they shouldn't be. Despite what Steve says.


Hawksmoor

[Derek Hiemforth]

This may sound a little weird, but hey... that's my favorite way to build odd constructs. ;)

What if you just applied Indirect to the main attack? This would allow Superman to do things like reflect his heat vision off of mirrors or heat-resistant surfaces, etc. in addition to doing the "heat up the gun" trick.

The "heat up the gun" trick itself would just be a different application of Indirect. Instead of reflecting the heat vision off of something, he's using the gun (or whatever) to transmit the heat to the wielder. The attack would still technically be targeting the gun wielder in game mechanics terms, but the SFX is that he's taking damage from holding the red-hot item. The whole "make him drop the gun" thing just becomes common sense on the target's part. If he wants to stop taking damage from the Continuous attack of the heat vision, he drops the gun. :)

(And this is probably a better way to approach it than a DEX Drain or some such. Because if the wielder really can ignore the heat for some reason, they shouldn't be compelled to drop the gun.)

Assuming you don't want the damage done by holding the gun to the be same as the target would take if you aimed the attack right at him, you might simply choose not to use your full dice when attacking this way. Alternately, you could apply a small Limitation (probably just to the Indirect Advantage) that the maximum damage possible is based on the materials of the object serving as the SFX of the Indirect.

For example, you might be able to transmit more damage by heating up a bazooka than you can by heating up a kazoo, simply because the bazooka is sturdier, and can withstand more heat, and for a longer duration before melting, than the kazoo can. Likewise, you could do more damage by heating up steel than you could by heating up chewing gum. :)

Of course, if you want to destroy the gun, just target it with the heat vision "for real," rather than using it as SFX of Indirect. And if you want the wielder to be burned at the same time you destroy the gun, Spread for 1d6 and hit both of them.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I don't consider the effect to be anything more than Superman attacking the focus and making it useless. The special effects of the attack dictate that the weapon gets hot. The by-product is that the players can either drop the focus or get burned by it. To me it's no different than the Human Torch doing the same thing. Heat makes things hot.

Totally agree. Anything more is over complicating the issue. Trying to build every possible effect with powers is NOT the same as "reasoning from effect."

Shooting a gun out their hands damages the gun and sends it flying. Melting it damages the weapon and makes it hot enough to drop. SFX man. It solves so many things.I'm normally as big a believer in "let SFX determine" as anyone, but I'm not sure this is a good situation for that, for a few reasons... It's entirely possible to heat up an item enough to severely burn someone, without destroying the item. It seems to me like Dust Raven is specifically looking for ways to damage the wielder of the item (or otherwise force them to drop it) without damaging the item itself.
Damaging an item someone is holding is definitely not the same thing (in HERO System mechanics) as damaging the person holding it. For a once-in-a-while thing, sure, let SFX or a Power skill roll hold sway. But if this is going to be a frequently-used effect for damaging/disarming foes, then it should have a defined effect. (Even if only to avoid GM-Player arguments over how much damage it should so and so on.)

[Dust Raven]

It's entirely possible to heat up an item enough to severely burn someone, without destroying the item. It seems to me like Dust Raven is specifically looking for ways to damage the wielder of the item (or otherwise force them to drop it) without damaging the item itself.
Prececely what I'm looking for. There are some targets that simply won't be affected by such an attack, due to a high ED, others won't work because their focus won't conduct heat well.

Since we need the character for tonight, I think we'll stick with the SFX determins effect and use the RKA to heat things up. We'll figure out if he needs another Power after talking it over the the GM when he gets here, and if he needs to make a Power for it, we'll make one later. Keep the ideas coming though!

[Mark Taylor]

Since we need the character for tonight, I think we'll stick with the SFX determins effect and use the RKA to heat things up. We'll figure out if he needs another Power after talking it over the the GM when he gets here, and if he needs to make a Power for it, we'll make one later. Keep the ideas coming though!

Perhaps you could use an EB instead of RKA and persuade the GM to allow the player to use a slightly modified version of the Disarm maneuver with it, substituting the EB's damage dice (reduced by ED) and the target character's EGO for the appropriate STR scores in the STR vs. STR contest.

It might need a little tweaking to balance it, but I think it's a workable idea.

[Rapier]

Call it a power trick?

Build his normal cutting heat vision, give him a Power Skill.

Let him attack the gun as normal. Subtract whatever ED the character has on his hands (gloves only, Damage Resistance, etc). Any BODY left is applied as a -1 mod on an EGO roll. If the character fails they drop the weapon.

Not sure how I feel about this, its just off the top of my head.

[Dust Raven]

Okay, talked to the GM. He said he'd just rule it as a SFX of the Power to heat things up. For disarming thugs of their metal guns, he'll just use the BODY rolled to act as a Disarm roll, and if the thugs don't let go, they take the damage of the RKA as normal head damage.

[Sean Waters]

If we are going to stretch the imagination and reason from effect, and ignore all those sensible 'it's the SFX, man' people...

Assuming you want that effect that someone to drops the gun as opposed to the effect that you damage and thus disable the hands or the focus itself, I'm not sure you want to damaging power at all. You would use some sort of sense effecting power, and I'm going to suggest shape shift against touch useable as an attack, but that is far too esoteric and complicated, I'm sure.

You could do it with mental illusions useable vs CON: the illusion being that your hand is burning - it even causes appropriate damage on a decent roll.

Or we could have it as a big attack bonus to a limited presence attack, or a single command sticky mind control.

Or (being more sensible) just make it a continuous uncontrolled RKA of 1d6 or so requiring a focus of opportunity and limited that the damage takes an extra phase (this giving the holder the chance to drop it rather than get hurt).

I have no idea what temperature a gun can operate at, but I'm pretty sure it can still fire at a temperature that would hurt a normal human hand, so Mr ImmuneToFire can still hold and shoot the gun even when it is hot.

I do like Derek's idea about indirect. He's so damn good at this sort of thing, isn't he?

[Sean Waters]

Ha! Superskill: ranged martial arts disarm linked to a 1d6RKA (automatically effects the hands) if id DOESN'T work.

OK, I'm being pretty silly now, but read the sig...

[Hugh Neilson]

We could reverse engineer it - say a small RKA, NND, Does BOD, only if target holding/wearing a heat-conductive object, defense is resistance to high heat, X points resistant ED or dropping/removing the metal object as it heats up.

Now, if you use the Wounding rules, you could simply assume failing the Ego roll results in the object being dropped.

[Blackjack]

I recently built the following power for a Champions Super-Mage, but it could easily be modified for Fantasy Hero, other genres, or as a "Power Trick" for Supes' Heat Vision:

Heat Weapon: Telekinesis (16 STR), Cumulative (1 Turn) (+1/2) (36 Active Points); Only to Disarm (-1 1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4). Real Cost: 12 points

I know, normally "Cumulative" is not allowed for Normal Damage powers, but in this case, the "damage" done is not normal, but rises to the point where the target can no longer hold on to the weapon because it has grown too hot...

If you want the heated object to damage anyone who touches it, you could combine/link an EB...

Hope that helps.

[philnicau]

I'd use the sticky advantage on the power, so the gun takes damage as does anyone who touches it, maybe include culmulative as well, with the disadavantage only works vs heat sensitive materials.

[Rapier]

I'd use the sticky advantage on the power, so the gun takes damage as does anyone who touches it, maybe include culmulative as well, with the disadavantage only works vs heat sensitive materials.
OH! Now that has some possibilities.

I keep thinking NND, Does BODY with the Defense being letting go of the objects or having FF/Insulation on the hands or LS: Extreme Heat.

But I like the sticky.

[Hawksmoor]

I'd use the sticky advantage on the power, so the gun takes damage as does anyone who touches it, maybe include culmulative as well, with the disadavantage only works vs heat sensitive materials.


Sticky!!!

Sticky!!!

Egads! I think the man has got it!

All I need now is my 13d6 Heat Blast +1/2 Sticky and I can get the hero and his little dog too!

Hawksmoor
-cackling like a madman

[Derek Hiemforth]

The problem with Sticky is that you'd have to attack the gun in order to pull off the effect. The whole idea is damage the foe and/or make him drop the gun by heating it up, but do so without damaging the gun.

[mudpyr8]

Don't forget gradual effect or extra time. The guns don't usually insta-heat. A big EB with 1 turn gradual might be cool, and throw in sticky (conductive objects only). He can't incinerate anyone with it, but given enough time he can heat something up or punch a hole through it. Something that gave him like 4d6 per phase or something up to a max of 12 or 16d6. Ooh, ooh, continuous, gotta have that too.

[Kristopher]

I'd strongly discourage the construction of this power based on something that's just Sense affecting. That's best left for illusions. If the gun really heats up, and might actually melt, and the bullets might actually cook off, and it would really do damage to the person holding it, then construct a power that really does something to the gun.

[Blue Jogger]

Our group has an optional manuever called "Or else".

When a user hits a target with a power, but before he rolls damage, he can state a condition that damage can be avoided. "You been hit, take 2D6 RKA or else move back one hex." The condition doesn't even have to be reasonable, but should follow from special effects, he can not hit somebody and declare "or else recite the 17th Amendment."

This allows all sorts of special effects. Setting one's clothes on fire. "Take 8D6 Fire Energy Blast or else strip off all your clothes." Setting a gun on fire, "Drop the gun or else take my heat vision damage."

The target is, of course, free to make the choice to take the damage instead. If the target elects to the "or else" action, he may do so immediately as a free zero-phase action.

[GamePhil]

I am entirely in favor of this being a Power Stunt as long as it doesn't get overused. I also like the "Or Else" Maneuver. However (with Heat Vision I being the normal attack):

Heat Vision II: RKA 1d6, Damage Shield (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Usable As Attack (+1) (67 Active Points)

Power can be turned off by dunking the item in water or similar things. I imagine that you could also get a Limitation for Only Affects Non-Flammable Objects With Good Heat Conductivity (metal objects work well, for example).

I'd generally allow the holder of the weapon to choose to drop it as a zero phase action, since that's usually the point of the attack.

[Rapier]

I am entirely in favor of this being a Power Stunt as long as it doesn't get overused. I also like the "Or Else" Maneuver. However (with Heat Vision I being the normal attack):

Heat Vision II: RKA 1d6, Damage Shield (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Usable As Attack (+1) (67 Active Points)

Power can be turned off by dunking the item in water or similar things. I imagine that you could also get a Limitation for Only Affects Non-Flammable Objects With Good Heat Conductivity (metal objects work well, for example).

I'd generally allow the holder of the weapon to choose to drop it as a zero phase action, since that's usually the point of the attack.
That's actually perfect. Kudos.

[zornwil]

Okay, talked to the GM. He said he'd just rule it as a SFX of the Power to heat things up. For disarming thugs of their metal guns, he'll just use the BODY rolled to act as a Disarm roll, and if the thugs don't let go, they take the damage of the RKA as normal head damage.
Personally I'd probably ask you to use Power Skill for these special effects, it's a good opportunity to put it to use and experiment with it.

[slaughterj]

I am entirely in favor of this being a Power Stunt as long as it doesn't get overused. I also like the "Or Else" Maneuver. However (with Heat Vision I being the normal attack):

Heat Vision II: RKA 1d6, Damage Shield (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Usable As Attack (+1) (67 Active Points)

Power can be turned off by dunking the item in water or similar things. I imagine that you could also get a Limitation for Only Affects Non-Flammable Objects With Good Heat Conductivity (metal objects work well, for example).

I'd generally allow the holder of the weapon to choose to drop it as a zero phase action, since that's usually the point of the attack.

Ugh, that may generate the desired effect, but is so cumbersome to develop in the system. Not to mention, all those advantages cranking up the cost on something that isn't often as good as just using a regular RKA on someone.

[TaxiMan]

Isn't "Or Else" just an application of Covered? You make your to-hit roll and the damage is guaranteed - but delayed until you want it to go off... ?

I guess the attack would have to be Continuous to fit the effect. I'm talking off the top of my head so there are likely to be holes in this approach - fire away!

[Doc Democracy]

Don't have time for specifics (wife is putting out the dinner and I'm already late!) but surely this would be a good use for change environment? The person would have to make an EGO roll to hold on??


Doc

[RDU Neil]

Personally I'd probably ask you to use Power Skill for these special effects, it's a good opportunity to put it to use and experiment with it.

If the SFX is "they drop their weapon" then I would't use a Power Skill for that, as you can do that with an attack already. To try and "heat" and item so that it somehow causes different kind of damage, or "damages with out obvious marks" or something... ok, then we are talking Power Skill.

[zornwil]

If the SFX is "they drop their weapon" then I would't use a Power Skill for that, as you can do that with an attack already. To try and "heat" and item so that it somehow causes different kind of damage, or "damages with out obvious marks" or something... ok, then we are talking Power Skill.
Good point, I agree as I think about it, as Disarm is of course a regular maneuver as you mention.

[Hyper-Man]

How's this for an example:

Superman's Heatvision

120 Heat Vision Multipower Reserve



Pinpoint-Cutting



8u RKA 2d6[30 active] Armor Piercing(+1/2) Continuous(+1) IPE*[normal sight, Hearing Group](+1/2) Penetrating x2(+1) No Knockback(-1/2) End 12


Hot-Foot


8u EB 6d6 NND(+1) Indirect(+1/2) Continuous(+1) IPE*(+1/2) No Knockback (-1/2) [Indirect only via a heat conductive material in contact with target](-0) End 12

Burst-Attack


8u EB 16d6 IPE*(+1/2) No Knockback(-1/2) End 12
24 8 levels with Heat Vision
Total Cost=168 (not counting any kryptonian limitations)

HM

[GamePhil]

Ugh, that may generate the desired effect, but is so cumbersome to develop in the system. Not to mention, all those advantages cranking up the cost on something that isn't often as good as just using a regular RKA on someone.

To your first point: Feh, have you seen the Skunk write up in HSB? :)

One thing I certainly don't have a problem with, myself, is creating a Power that gets just the right effect, and then describing it for anyone who doesn't want to deal with the write up, much as is done in the actual published materials. In this case, you have the above write up, and then also have a short paragraph describing the effect.

Description: By using his Heat Vision on an enemy's weapon, the character can heat the target so greatly that it will cause damage if held on to. If it is not dropped immediately, the weapon's holder will take 1d6 of Killing Damage to his hand or hands. For every 7 END paid, this effect will last one Phase.

Or something like that. Then just buy the Power (probably around 40 points after Limitations) and call it Heat Vision II, since you know what that means when used.

To the second point: That's why we have Power Frameworks.

[GamePhil]

That's actually perfect. Kudos.

Thank you. Glad someone likes it ;)

[Blue Jogger]

Isn't "Or Else" just an application of Covered? You make your to-hit roll and the damage is guaranteed - but delayed until you want it to go off... ?

I guess the attack would have to be Continuous to fit the effect. I'm talking off the top of my head so there are likely to be holes in this approach - fire away!


It is kinda like Covered, in that the hit roll is made and the damage is conditional (You can break out of being Covered). But, it doesn't have a -2 OCV (although, maybe it should have) and the condition of avoiding the damage comes from doing an action that logically avoids the damage. Dropping the gun, stripping off the clothes, etc.

It may not be play-balanced but it definately allows the players more options, and that's usually better.

[Dust Raven]

Don't forget gradual effect or extra time. The guns don't usually insta-heat.
They do in the comics. Typically it looks like it takes some time, but nobody does anything during that time. Even the bad guy just stands there as the gun heats up, then yells "ouch" and drops it. I'd call that something a character can do with a single attack (no more than a full phase, or a 1+1 phase action).

[Dust Raven]

How's this for an example:

Superman's Heatvision

120 Heat Vision Multipower Reserve


Pinpoint-Cutting




8u RKA 2d6[30 active] Armor Piercing(+1/2) Continuous(+1) IPE*[normal sight, Hearing Group](+1/2) Penetrating x2(+1) No Knockback(-1/2) End 12





Hot-Foot




8u EB 6d6 NND(+1) Indirect(+1/2) Continuous(+1) IPE*(+1/2) No Knockback (-1/2) [Indirect only via a heat conductive material in contact with target](-0) End 12


Burst-Attack




8u EB 16d6 IPE*(+1/2) No Knockback(-1/2) End 12


24 8 levels with Heat Vision

Total Cost=168 (not counting any kryptonian limitations)

HM
I don't mean to be picky, but Continuous shouldn't apply here. Continuous would mean Superman can start pin-point cutting the wall on the left, and while he's cutting a whole in it, he can start cutting another hole in the wall on the right (at the same time!). Now, I know Superman is fast, but I don't recall him ever going crosseyed to continuously burn things on opposite ends of the room.

I know how you'd get confused though. It took me a while to realize that "continuing a constant attack" is just making another attack roll the next Phase, not a Contunuous advantage. And that's constant in real-life speak, not a game term.

[Dust Raven]

Our group has an optional manuever called "Or else".
I like this. I might borrow this for a few session and see how it goes. I don't like the idea of just letting loose with it, however, and I'd probably allow it's use with a penalty to OCV (probably only a -1, maybe a -2). I might need to think about handling the cases when the target doesn't "ore else." Afterall, if his clothes are actually on fire, they'd stay that way for a while, but shouldn't.

[Hyper-Man]

I don't mean to be picky, but Continuous shouldn't apply here. Continuous would mean Superman can start pin-point cutting the wall on the left, and while he's cutting a whole in it, he can start cutting another hole in the wall on the right (at the same time!). Now, I know Superman is fast, but I don't recall him ever going crosseyed to continuously burn things on opposite ends of the room.

I know how you'd get confused though. It took me a while to realize that "continuing a constant attack" is just making another attack roll the next Phase, not a Contunuous advantage. And that's constant in real-life speak, not a game term.
I disagree somewhat. Continuous is appropriate in Superman's case since all he has to do is maintain eye contact with his target once he 'hits'. It would take an additional Uncontrolled advantage to use a 'Heat-Vision' Power against another target simultaneously the next phase. Taking a 'Lockout' limitation on the slots in question with regard to other uses of the multipower might be appropriate. However, I have seen comics where Superman is fighting an extremely tough opponent and ends up maintaining a Heat-Vision attack while pummeling the same target with his fists.

HM