Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

[Steve]

According to the Hero 5th rulebook, the average person has 8's in their primary characteristics. Yet when designing a hero or superhero, the starting point is set at 10 instead. Has anyone ever run a campaign with the starting point for primary characteristics set at 8 instead of 10? Admittedly, we are only talking about 25 points (23 if you buy SPD up to 2 from 1.8), but it strikes me that it would be a method of helping to hold back stat inflation in Heroic level games (since it probably would not affect higher-pointed Superheroic games very much). A 10 would be something that required an investment of precious starting points, and a 13 or 15 would be more noteworthy than if the character had already started from 10 just by virtue of being a PC.

Anyone agree? Or am I a heretic for suggesting this? :)

[Ben Seeman]

Burn him! Burn him!

That's an interesting approach.

[Bengal]

This'll be a house rule in my next campaign, no matter whether it's heroic, superheroic, or incompentant normal. Good show.

[Dust Raven]

Are you giving the characters those 25 points for the reduction of starting Characteristics?

If you want to encourage characters having stats below 10, you could just start them with 25 points less than normal.

In any case, I wouldn't ever use this. Then again, I like running "heroic" adventure, where the player characters do have above average stats, even if above average means a 10.

[lemming]

Yep. Your average person has 8s. Your average hero starts at 10. At least that's my take on the matter.

[Steve Long]

Has anyone ever run a campaign with the starting point for primary characteristics set at 8 instead of 10?

AAMOF, our soon-to-be-published Fantasy setting, The Valdorian Age, has all characters starting out with 8s as a way of enforcing the Swords And Sorcery "feel" that Allen wanted for the campaign. It includes some notes and such about the implications of this approach and ways to tweak it if you like.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Y'know... I'd bet almost anything that if you started a campaign with, say, 250 points and CHAs based at 10, almost no one would sell their non-character-conception-critical CHAs down below 10. But if you started it at 275 points and CHAs based at 8, almost no one would buy their non-character-conception-critical CHAs up beyond 8...

Players are weird. :)

[Lupus]

Y'know... I'd bet almost anything that if you started a campaign with, say, 250 points and CHAs based at 10, almost no one would sell their non-character-conception-critical CHAs down below 10. But if you started it at 275 points and CHAs based at 8, almost no one would buy their non-character-conception-critical CHAs up beyond 8...

Players are weird. :)
I concur. I feel that pull myself, and I'd be surprised if I were the only one.

I'm not weird, I'm completely normal.

[yamamura]

I concur. I feel that pull myself, and I'd be surprised if I were the only one.

I'm not weird, I'm completely normal.

What do you mean you are a dog with glowing eyes and the last time I check that is not normal;) But I do concur for heroic campaign starting at 8 is an interesting idea.

G

[zornwil]

I've thought about this as well, from when I first heard that normals were 8 which I didn't realize until 5th (I think it existed prior but it just never struck me). I think it would be good in a true low-end setting, for anything above street-level it might be a bit prohibitive. Maybe 9 for anything that isn't entirely low-end but isn't high-powered but you want to hold back on total point spend and stat inflation. I think the problem for anything high-powered is you're still going to get stat inflation, just possibly fewer stats inflated, but any stat they want high they will just boost highly. And for those stats they only raise a little from the 8 floor, they would have done the same from the 10 floor, and due to rounding it's not much of an impact if any, really.

Good topic.

[Steve]

AAMOF, our soon-to-be-published Fantasy setting, The Valdorian Age, has all characters starting out with 8s as a way of enforcing the Swords And Sorcery "feel" that Allen wanted for the campaign. It includes some notes and such about the implications of this approach and ways to tweak it if you like.

Actually, it was while I was reading through Valdorian Age that I got to thinking about this. I didn't mention it as the source of inspiration, since I wasn't sure it was allowed under the NDA.

Every calculation for CV or skill rolls gives you the same result at 8 as you get at 10, but there is this curious blind spot in Hero gamers when it comes to selling off characteristics. So you end up with scholarly wizards with a modestly buff 10 STR (as compared to an average human) or an unlettered fighter with a 10 INT, and other such oddities.

I would give the 25 points to a player as an addition to the starting points (say 175 instead of 150), but make them start from 8's in their stats and maybe starting at 5" of Running as well (to make up the 2 points spent to boost SPD to 2). Then they could choose to spend them on characteristics or other things. I would guess other things would eat up a portion of those points before they put them back into characteristics they don't plan to use much.

I also favor treating COM as a 2-point Perk or Penalty Level which affects certain Interaction skills and some PRE attacks, so it makes for a better scale to start at 8, then go to 12, 16 and 20 for bonuses (or more). Likewise, 4 and 0 COM giving penalties. Using five breakpoints like this gives a fair scale to use in showing general attractiveness.

[Bengal]

Ya all thinkin too much, 8's are just better. More authentic.

[Foxx!]

I like this idea, and I’m going to try it. Everyone says that most players buy Chars in 3s and 8s instead of 5s and 0s anyway.

Cheers!

[Enforcer84]

I've always been a 5/0 guy, myself.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Me personally, I like to think that a characteristic of 10 is where the average man is supposed to be, but in actuality, most of us "couch potatos" tend to average around 8.

However, a reasonably in-shape, healthy person of average intelligence and charisma would score 10's in all the characteristics.

[Sean Waters]

I've always been a 5/0 guy, myself.


Book him, Danno!

You buy strength as 5/0 but most everything else as 8/3, or for DEX and EGO 5/8/11/14/17/20/23/26/29/32/...and repeat.

As Steve says an 8 DEX has the same CV as a 10 DEX. In fact an 8 characteristic has the same characteristic roll as a 12 characteristic.

I am in the habit of having sub-normal (i.e. sub 10) characteristics for fantasy characters where the points are in short supply and it makes sense in terms of the character, but I tend to buy every characteristic up at least a bit for superhero characters whether it is concept critical or not. I can't remember the last time I had a superhero with a 10 characteristic. 11 EGO is a must, or 14 if you have the points. At least 15 PRE, 13 INT, odd numbered BODY (if you are using impairment rules) STR, CON and DEX tend to be mission critical, and even if STR isn't, at least 13. COM of 12 or more.

Most superheroes I build don't have low characteristics: maybe low INT or COM if it is in character concept; I don't favour the thick brick type, but the odd scarred hero has crept through.

[Derek Hiemforth]

You buy strength as 5/0 but most everything else as 8/3, or for DEX and EGO 5/8/11/14/17/20/23/26/29/32/...and repeat.One exception for values 17 and 32 on DEX and EGO... those are often worth buying to 18/33 to take advantage of the CHA-roll breakpoint. ;)

[Sean Waters]

Me personally, I like to think that a characteristic of 10 is where the average man is supposed to be, but in actuality, most of us "couch potatos" tend to average around 8.

However, a reasonably in-shape, healthy person of average intelligence and charisma would score 10's in all the characteristics.

Call me Mr Cynical, but...

The average man can not lift 220lbs over their head without pushing! Working on STR, average people wouldn't have a strength of more than 5, probably less. Even strength 0 allows you to lift 55lbs which is beyond a lot of people.

Look at any TV quiz show and tell me if Mr Average has an INT roll as high as 11-. I don't think so...

I'd favour 'average' people having characteristics of 7, not 8, so they had poor but easily increased characteristic rolls and CV, and you have to be really careful with them in superhero games as they break so easily. They also make firearms look far more deadly. Hell, they make harsh language look deadly!

[Sean Waters]

One exception for values 17 and 32 on DEX and EGO... those are often worth buying to 18/33 to take advantage of the CHA-roll breakpoint. ;)

Agreed, but I often leave them there to taunt myself and to give me something to spend my first couple of XP on.

The other advantage of buying an extra point is to get the initiave drop on all the other minimaxers out there.

Munchkin? Me? Surely you jest!

[Derek Hiemforth]

The average man can not lift 220lbs over their head without pushing!Your STR score doesn't determine how much weight you can lift over your head... it determines how much you can just barely pick up, stagger a step or two, and drop.

[Deejmeister]

Lowering starting STR to 8 may fix the lift problem, but it really aggrivates the weapon STR minimum problem. It's hard enough explaining why city guardsmen have STRs 5 pts higher than average to cover thier weapons without makeing it 7 pts! :stupid:

[Sean Waters]

I don't know if you've ever picked up and swung a medieval sword, axe or pike, but you do need more than average strength to do so: that is why your basic constable with stick with a baton. If you want to draw a longbow, you start practicing when you are about 10, and build up. The fact that guardsmen can wield more effective weapons explains why they are the guardsmen, and the citizenry don't give them too much gyp.

You can pick up a sword and swing it with a strength under the minimum: you are taking additional OCV penalties through, so it probably isn't worth it.

[Sean Waters]

Your STR score doesn't determine how much weight you can lift over your head... it determines how much you can just barely pick up, stagger a step or two, and drop.

Fair enough, bur 220lbs is nearly 16 stone, and Mr and Mrs Average probably can't get that much off the floor at all.

[DreadDomain]

Call me Mr Cynical, but...
The average man can not lift 220lbs over their head without pushing! Working on STR, average people wouldn't have a strength of more than 5, probably less. Even strength 0 allows you to lift 55lbs which is beyond a lot of people.


STR 10 doesn't mean you can lift 220lbs over your head, it means you barely lift it off the ground and move it for a few step. Look in the Ultimate Brick pg 9. A clean & jerk would be 110 lbs (50%) and a snatch would be 88 lbs (40%).

[paigeoliver]

I think you guys are forgetting something.

The "average person" includes everyone, 11 year old girls, 60 year old men, 45 year old housewives who are 100 lbs overweight. You know EVERYONE.

So yes, the average score for humanity is an 8.

Humanity has A LOT of low ability score "dead weight" pulling down the average scores. Most of the elderly, children, and the vast hoards of mildly to majorly obese 35+ year old women who don't work, never really did, and have really low scores due to inactivity of both the body and mind (not as many men in this category for social reasons, since most men HAVE to work).

Different scores would have different averages for different ages if you really think about it. I always assumed all 10s would be normal scores for a normal active 30 year old.

People younger than that would tend towards higher dex, com and con with a slightly reduced int and pre. While people older would (mostly) have lower scores across the board with COM and con going first.

[Agent X]

I don't believe it's that hard to imagine a typical adult dead-lifting 220 pounds in the kinds of circumstances most characters are in when they are dead-lifting something.

[mudpyr8]

An alternative is just to have a lower point game. If you create a game where the base points are 25 with 50 disads you can bet that players will sell back every non-essential characteristic to make it more "real". Works like a charm.

Setting the base to 8 is fine too, but I think there are many ramifications to consider. I prefer to make the assumption that when I build your typical guard or commoner that their bases are 8s, selling off their stats to buy the skills they need to survive. I think that method works fine, especially if the GM is good about enforcing it, and it lends to the heroism of the players that even when they are 100 pts and the town guard are 40 pts it feels like they are a cut above.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I can deadlift 220lbs, and I don't workout at all (well, I started recently, just to get into shape)

I worked at a job where I regularly (several times a day) lifted 100lb+ objects to head height and carried them a few dozen feet, and I'm a pretty typical gamer-couch potato kinda guy. The "average" man (as PaigeOliver pointed out, this should be pegged as an adult male of around 30 years of age of average height and weight) should easily be able to deadlift 220lbs. Heck, according to doctors, you should be able to benchpress your own body weight (a 6'1" man should weigh around 185lbs. I'm 5'10 ish and weigh 200lbs)

The basic characteristics (as far as STR is concerned) is just about dead on for where the average man is supposed to be if he is in shape and gets regular excersize or works out lightly.

So the guy who plays basketball on the weekends with his buds and visits the Gym 3 times a week can get a 10 or 11 STR. The guy who doesn't work out at all, sits and watches TV and snacks on pop-tarts probably has an 8 or 9 STR. Most adult females will vary between 5 and 7. Much higher than that will be pretty rare.

[Champsguy]

I'm 6'1", 190 lbs, and I can lift 220 lbs easily. Heck, when I was 12 years old (and I was a little, scrawny kid), I could lift my grandpa off the ground if I used my legs and my back (of course, I'd almost fall over doing it). He was about 220. 220 lbs is not a lot. I've got a 10 str, or higher. I'd put myself at somewhere between 10 and 13, honestly, and I don't work out at all.

[Netzilla]

Heck in college, I used to work out 3 days per week, practiced Judo & was on the Fencing team so I got a little more excercise than most folks, but wasn't close to where the serious jocks were. Back then, at 5' 8", 140 lbs, I could squat 350. I don't know what my deadlift was, but there you go. So, I don't think the Hero STR averages are much off (if at all).

Unfortunately, I'm not quite in that shape any more.

[Lezentauw]

According to the Hero 5th rulebook, the average person has 8's in their primary characteristics. Yet when designing a hero or superhero, the starting point is set at 10 instead. Has anyone ever run a campaign with the starting point for primary characteristics set at 8 instead of 10? Admittedly, we are only talking about 25 points (23 if you buy SPD up to 2 from 1.8), but it strikes me that it would be a method of helping to hold back stat inflation in Heroic level games (since it probably would not affect higher-pointed Superheroic games very much). A 10 would be something that required an investment of precious starting points, and a 13 or 15 would be more noteworthy than if the character had already started from 10 just by virtue of being a PC.

Anyone agree? Or am I a heretic for suggesting this? :)

I have seen it done, or at least attempted. There was some gripes from the players about losing points over the situation as well. I think that the players never really understood the desire for such a rule, and only saw a decrease in allotted points. I even helped to create a Hero Designer Template, so that characters could be built correctly in HD.

The only drawback to doing this, is that you need to also look at all of the age categories and adjust them as well. So it is not just as easy as making one decision.

[Black Rose]

Gods, I wish I'd stuck to the workouts I was getting in High School. I had some serious definition in my legs (got a gf 'cause of them) and was really starting to get some tapering in my chest and abs. If I'd not gone and worked for KFC, I might still have some of it. Damned greasy food.....

[Susano]

I don't know if you've ever picked up and swung a medieval sword, axe or pike, but you do need more than average strength to do so: that is why your basic constable with stick with a baton. If you want to draw a longbow, you start practicing when you are about 10, and build up. The fact that guardsmen can wield more effective weapons explains why they are the guardsmen, and the citizenry don't give them too much gyp.

I have picked up and certain medieval weapons (sword) and found them to be fairly manageable. The average sword weighs in at 3.5 lbs and can easily be swung by the average man. Now, if I worked out every day (i.e., lived a medieval life of manual labor), I'd be in much better shape, weight less, have less body fat, and be far more capable at sword swinging. I will admit, my glaive is heavy and bulky, but I'm not sure how accurate it is (the shaft is solid teak, not ash wood).

As for starting an archer at 10, that's more to do with accuracy, speed of draw, and strength -- which is why the crossbow ended up so popular. I learned to shoot mine (60-75 lb draw+) in about 15 minutes (and hit the target repeatedly). The woman next to me couldn't draw her 35 lb bow properly in the same amount of time.

[Susano]

Your STR score doesn't determine how much weight you can lift over your head... it determines how much you can just barely pick up, stagger a step or two, and drop.

I use the old FUZION rule for STR. 10 STR = 220 lbs off the floor, 110 lbs to the waist, 55 lbs over the head. I think it works fairly well. And, IMO, an 8 STR seems typical for most people (at my best, I may have had a 10). TUB also has some ideas on how to determine lift.

For what's its worth, when I finally do THE DERELICT, the sample PCs will all start with 8s before I add in any Package Deals.

[Dust Raven]

I have picked up and certain medieval weapons (sword) and found them to be fairly manageable. The average sword weighs in at 3.5 lbs and can easily be swung by the average man.
I would easily agree, as I've done the same. I'd also say I have slightly above average STR. Could I wield an actual longsword in combat? I might... I'm even a somewhat skilled swordsman, but a blade that heavy gets swung rather slow and clumsily (thrusting is kinda easy though). If I had to swordfight someone, I'd rather go with a lighter blade, a rapier, shortsword or pappenheimer or something similar. I've got the STR to move those around pretty quick, unlike a heavier blade.

[Susano]

I would easily agree, as I've done the same. I'd also say I have slightly above average STR. Could I wield an actual longsword in combat? I might... I'm even a somewhat skilled swordsman, but a blade that heavy gets swung rather slow and clumsily (thrusting is kinda easy though). If I had to swordfight someone, I'd rather go with a lighter blade, a rapier, shortsword or pappenheimer or something similar. I've got the STR to move those around pretty quick, unlike a heavier blade.

At one point, a bunch of us agreed (as in, a bunch of SCA armored fighters), that the average middle ages knight was a scary guy. They wore upwards of 50+ lbs of armor, slogged around in it all day, and managed to swing (and hit) people with weapons, and actually hurt them (while the other guy was wearing armor as well). These guys *had* to be in good physical shape -- even considering how little time they spent in full armor.

OTOH -- the speed inherent in the rapier did make it a popular weapon, especially as armor was reaching the point where it was just too heavy to be of much use and the weapons were getting to accurate and deadly.

[Dust Raven]

At one point, a bunch of us agreed (as in, a bunch of SCA armored fighters), that the average middle ages knight was a scary guy. They wore upwards of 50+ lbs of armor, slogged around in it all day, and managed to swing (and hit) people with weapons, and actually hurt them (while the other guy was wearing armor as well). These guys *had* to be in good physical shape -- even considering how little time they spent in full armor.

OTOH -- the speed inherent in the rapier did make it a popular weapon, especially as armor was reaching the point where it was just too heavy to be of much use and the weapons were getting to accurate and deadly.
That, and it made most armor of the time obsolete, as the thin blade could work between the plates or links. A man skilled with a rapier could poke several holes in an armored man skilled with a broadsword before his target could even take a swing at him.

[Silbeg]

That, and it made most armor of the time obsolete, as the thin blade could work between the plates or links. A man skilled with a rapier could poke several holes in an armored man skilled with a broadsword before his target could even take a swing at him.
If I'm not mistaken, it was the proliferation of firearms that made armor obsolete, not rapiers. With a well trained warrior in a well-made suit of plate armor, there wouldn't be too many places that could be exploited by a rapier... in fact, the weapons of choice against heavy armor were more likely to be maces and hammers (especially the lucern hammer, which is more of a pick, really), which could actually dent or penetrate the armor.

However, firearms could easily be made to be able to penetrate armor, at which time the expensive armor was no longer giving much effect. And, as always, when there is no real benefit to a technology, it gets deprecated.

[Agent X]

I use the old FUZION rule for STR. 10 STR = 220 lbs off the floor, 110 lbs to the waist, 55 lbs over the head. I think it works fairly well. And, IMO, an 8 STR seems typical for most people (at my best, I may have had a 10). TUB also has some ideas on how to determine lift.

For what's its worth, when I finally do THE DERELICT, the sample PCs will all start with 8s before I add in any Package Deals. Woohoo! I like that system. In that system I have a strength of 15+! AND I'm out of shape.

What I really mean: I don't think lifting mechanics really work out to where what you can lift over your head is only 1/4 of what you can deadlift. I forget what the Ultimate Brick formula was but it looked closer to my experiences in the gym.

[Agent X]

If I'm not mistaken, it was the proliferation of firearms that made armor obsolete, not rapiers. With a well trained warrior in a well-made suit of plate armor, there wouldn't be too many places that could be exploited by a rapier... in fact, the weapons of choice against heavy armor were more likely to be maces and hammers (especially the lucern hammer, which is more of a pick, really), which could actually dent or penetrate the armor.

However, firearms could easily be made to be able to penetrate armor, at which time the expensive armor was no longer giving much effect. And, as always, when there is no real benefit to a technology, it gets deprecated.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure rapiers became popular because people stopped dressing like human tanks.

[Susano]

Woohoo! I like that system. In that system I have a strength of 15+! AND I'm out of shape.

What I really mean: I don't think lifting mechanics really work out to where what you can lift over your head is only 1/4 of what you can deadlift. I forget what the Ultimate Brick formula was but it looked closer to my experiences in the gym.

Sure, but that system worked well enough for gaming and for translating stuff seen in source material into character sheets.

[Agent X]

Sure, but that system worked well enough for gaming and for translating stuff seen in source material into character sheets. I'm just saying I can lift well over 110 pounds over my head but I'm not sure I can deadlift well over 440 pounds...

And, yeah, I doubt it matters on conversions.

[Susano]

I'm just saying I can lift well over 110 pounds over my head but I'm not sure I can deadlift well over 440 pounds...

And, yeah, I doubt it matters on conversions.

But can you get 440 lbs a few inches off of the ground?

[Hugh Neilson]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure rapiers became popular because people stopped dressing like human tanks.

I believe that's correct. Firearms made the heavy armor obsolete. Then rapiers came in, because they were much faster and there was no longer a need for a lot of weight behind the blow to punch through armor.

[WhammeWhamme]

I would easily agree, as I've done the same. I'd also say I have slightly above average STR. Could I wield an actual longsword in combat? I might... I'm even a somewhat skilled swordsman, but a blade that heavy gets swung rather slow and clumsily (thrusting is kinda easy though). If I had to swordfight someone, I'd rather go with a lighter blade, a rapier, shortsword or pappenheimer or something similar. I've got the STR to move those around pretty quick, unlike a heavier blade.

Actually, wouldn't that mean you don't quite measure up to the STR minimum, and thus have a penalty to your to hit roll?

[WhammeWhamme]

Lowering starting STR to 8 may fix the lift problem, but it really aggrivates the weapon STR minimum problem. It's hard enough explaining why city guardsmen have STRs 5 pts higher than average to cover thier weapons without makeing it 7 pts! :stupid:

Er... why would they need to meet the STR minimum? They can still wield them, they just don't do it so well.

[Susano]

Er... why would they need to meet the STR minimum? They can still wield them, they just don't do it so well.

Thus explaining why the heroes can whip up on a whole mob of them.

[Agent X]

But can you get 440 lbs a few inches off of the ground? I don't know. I haven't tried (and won't try). It will go down as one of life's mysteries. ;)

[Arac-4105]

Just a little note on the difference between modern and medaevil (sp?) characters: TV's and computers.

Most modern folks turn to the TV and/or the internet as entertainment, as well as having sit-down jobs that make absolutely no use of their bodily strength, therefore they get very little exercize unless they commit themselves to it.

In olden days, entertainment was limited to live performances or whatever you could think up by yourself (not even a decent RPG game back then). Not to mention that most of the jobs of the day were quite physical and required a mix of patience and concentration that modern people would have a hard time comprehending.

I think it's more appropriate to give fantasy and olden-days characters (i.e. any character in a time period before 1900 A.D.) a starting value of 10 in their stats.

Just my $0.02.

[Agent X]

The problem is that medieval folks also lived in worse conditions. Yeah, you've got to be tough to survive but you're still taking hits. Hard work wears out joints. Physical work increases the odds of this or that little injury or big injury. Lean times means inadequate nutrition. There is a reason folks in the past were shorter than they are now. I don't think you can make the case for greater fitness for people in the past when you take into account wear and tear and illness and sanitation.

[Arac-4105]

Call me arrogant, but I think the main thing is that they lived in those conditions. I agree that their lives were short and any diseases that came their way were very serious, but the ones that lived were in better physical shape than the 'average' person today just by virtue of that hard life.
I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything here. I'm just sticking to my opinion.

[zornwil]

Probably different kinds of toughness. I'd suspect the average commoner of the Middle Ages would have a higher STR, maybe higher CON (one issue I've seen bandied about, even by people who "should know" is that with all the protections we have now we tend to be more susceptible than someone back then who lived to the mature (back then) age of 15), but much more likelihood and frequency of impairing Physical Limitations. PS - actually I'd have to cancel out any CON advantage and probably give it to modern man, because EFFECTIVELY modern man is given a higher CON through vaccinations and healthy foods and such.

One thing I will say, when I was a healthy teenager I was on the farm, and a girl who was, I think, around 12 was WAY stronger than I was, I discovered, as I helped do farm chores. I mean she was noticably stronger with much greater lift and such, and I wasn't weak or anything (I was playing sports with other kids, not buff but not out of shape).

[Hugh Neilson]

On the issue of STR minimums for weapons: I allow characters in my fantasy hero game to buy up to five points of STR defined as "Weapon Training", which increases strength only for the purpose of wielding weapons (-3/4 Limitation).

I like that approach. I note that +5 STR with a -3/4 limit costs 3 points. For many such characters (those not at or near the 20 STR breakpoint), it would be no more expensive to buy +5 STR, and sell back the resulting 2 or 3 STUN (or 1 REC). They would then get +1 PD, extra STUN or REC, and the other benefits of an extra 5 STR. But that's just a costing issue.

[Just Joe]

I think you guys are forgetting something.

The "average person" includes everyone, 11 year old girls, 60 year old men, 45 year old housewives who are 100 lbs overweight. You know EVERYONE.

So yes, the average score for humanity is an 8.

This comment made me curious enough to look up the relevent parts of the rulebook. I am not inclined to interpret the rules as you do, but they are not exactly crystal clear on this matter. The first relevent parts I could find were on pp. 14-15, which refer to "standard normals" and "skilled normals". Neither is clearly defined, but the former generally have primary characteristics from 5 to 10, the latter from 8 to 13. The next pertinent section I found (p. 223) was the write-up for an "Average Person": someone with all 8's for primary char's. This superficially appears to support your position, but consider the following.

A) The term "average" has several meanings (arithmetic mean being only one of these).

B) p. 224 has a write-up for a "Noteworthy Normal": someone with all 10's for primary char's. But what would be noteworthy about someone like that based on your interpretation.

C) Also on p. 224 is a write-up for a "Competent Normal" (with primary char's from 10 to 14). This suggests one shouldn't take the labels for these character write-ups too literally. If I were looking for a competent barber, plumber, or waiter, I would not be looking for anything like a "competent normal".

My conclusion? I'm inclined to think that "average normal" is meant in a different sense from how you interpret it, but I'm also inclined to think that there;s room for more than one interpretation here.

[Just Joe]

Y'know... I'd bet almost anything that if you started a campaign with, say, 250 points and CHAs based at 10, almost no one would sell their non-character-conception-critical CHAs down below 10. But if you started it at 275 points and CHAs based at 8, almost no one would buy their non-character-conception-critical CHAs up beyond 8...

Players are weird. :)
I think you make a good point, and it helped me to better see the value of the original suggestion of this thread.

Though I think most of the wierdness you describe is irrational, I think I can explain some of it. As a player, I try not to be a point-grubber, and as a GM, I tend to be annoyed by point-grubbing. In a game in which 10 is considered the default starting value, 8's tend to look like point-grubbing. In a game with no mental powers or drains, 8 int's and ego's look particularly cheesy(hey, I'll take 6 free points, 'cuz my character is just a little bit mentally "soft" -- really).

Of course, if the GM encouraged 8's, my attitude would be entirely different. I would note, however, that unless points are VERY tight, you're likely to get not only more 8's but also more high chars (i.e., many players are likely to use the extra points to buy up other char's, rather than buying more skills). That may be what you want, but be warned that the net effect could be to actually raise the power level of the game slightly by encouraging greater point-efficiency in the purchase of char's.

[DreadDomain]

I use the old FUZION rule for STR. 10 STR = 220 lbs off the floor, 110 lbs to the waist, 55 lbs over the head. I think it works fairly well. And, IMO, an 8 STR seems typical for most people (at my best, I may have had a 10). TUB also has some ideas on how to determine lift.

For what's its worth, when I finally do THE DERELICT, the sample PCs will all start with 8s before I add in any Package Deals.

Personally I prefer the Ultimate Brick rule :


Off the ground 100%
Hip level 90%
Clean and jerk 50%
Snatch 40%


I just think it makes more sense under that system I am about Str 10-11 considering clean & jerk (I don't see myself as particularly strong so it seems to fit) and lifting 110kg off the ground seems fairly doable . Under Fuzion ruling, I would be STR 16-17 considering clean & jerk (which doesn't make sense) but I clearly cannot lift anywhere near 250kg off the ground.

[zornwil]

But can you get 440 lbs a few inches off of the ground?I've been thinking about it and based on the heaviest things I've dealt with, no, though I could get 100 pounds over my head with a bit of struggle.

PS - if you mean entirely off the ground, not one end of something.