Converting Vamps to Champs

[Stallion]

I am interested in converting Vampire Dark Ages to Hero system rules. I would love to hear from you all and any assistance will certainly be put to good use. I love the game, just hate the system. Have there been previous posts on this matter?

Thank you,

Stallion:cool:

[Captain Obvious]

http://members.tripod.com/~HRClark333/Vrules.html

Here is a link converting Vampire: the Masquerade over to 4th edition. I'm not familiar enough with the game (V:tM) to say whether it's a faithful rendition or not. Either way, I'm sure it will give some ideas for you in converting Dark Ages over to 5th Ed....

[Robert Harrison]

There's another V:tM to HERO conversion on Mike Surbrook's site:

http://www.devermore.net/surbrook/whitewolf/WODHERO.html

The latter half of the Vampire HERO text on Mike's site somehow got switched to Symbol font. You can probably save the text and use your word processor program to change it to a readable font (or you can email me, and I can send you the latest incarnation of these conversion notes).

[Marcus]

Both versions seem fairly faithful to the source material. The second page goes a bit more into all the buying necessary to 'Make one a Vampire', IE all those neat things that the typical Cainite player takes for granted.

Its a valid point that a serious elder, in either system, would be built on more points, and far less efficiently, than a high-end Dr. Destroyer. The one time I did it, it was an NPC, there was a fair amout of handwaving and VPPing, and I tend to just convert existing WoD Cainites to Champions rather than ground-upping them in Champions. One of my basic 'concepts' is..
John Q Normal-3 CV Champions, 3 Dice-Pools to-hit in WoD (assuming 1 point of brawl... which ought to be Everyman in WoD, if you wrestled with your brother)
Ergo...
Make sure final OCV=Dice Pool after buying up dex to match. Buy levels with appropriate abilitys to match.

John Q Normal-2 DCs Champions, 2 Dice Punch WoD.
Ergo, Dice of Damage in WoD= Damage Classes. Potences 'autodamage' feature would be handled by building it as +5 Str, with +5 more STR only to do damage.

If your cainite has a 6 Dice Pool for, say, Telepathy... 6 Dice, 6 DCs, 30 Points of Telepathy. Move along...

etc. Just my off-the-top-of-my-head Ideas.

[Marcus]

Just finished a building project for a mid-range Methusalah thats been a background Ally/Nemesis/? NPC in a local VtM game.

About 3000 points.

[Robert Harrison]

Originally posted by Marcus

Its a valid point that a serious elder, in either system, would be built on more points, and far less efficiently, than a high-end Dr. Destroyer.


I agree. Neonate vampires in my game start at about 400-450 points, yet they would have trouble with a 250-350 pt. superhero. Though I look for the cheapest way to build things, I'm more interested in emulating WoD supernaturals than point efficiency. I let players have whatever points they need to build the vampire (or other supernatural) they want (within reason), and I try to avoid introducing any flying ubermenschen in tights during play.;)

[Susano]

Originally posted by Robert Harrison
There's another V:tM to HERO conversion on Mike Surbrook's site:

http://www.devermore.net/surbrook/whitewolf/WODHERO.html

The latter half of the Vampire HERO text on Mike's site somehow got switched to Symbol font. You can probably save the text and use your word processor program to change it to a readable font (or you can email me, and I can send you the latest incarnation of these conversion notes).

Crud. I didn't notice this. I bet is comes from saving those Word files you sent me as HTML. I'll try and get on fixing them.

[Susano]

Uhm... can you tell where, exactly, this occurs? I'm not finding it.

[misterdeath]

On my computer, it happens right about here

Active Cost: 86 for Astral Form, (Vampire character total ¸ 2.5) + 12 for dimension-travelling Duplicate

Real Cost: 34 for Astral Form, Duplicate Active Cost ¸ 3.5 for dimension-travelling Duplicate

It converts back to normal font when posted here but everything in italics and thereafter is in symbol font.

D

[Captain Obvious]

Your section for Wraith: the Oblivion goes Greek right before the Disadvantages section, too...

Nice conversions though.

[Susano]

Apparently, my browser is smart enough to ignore these tags, as I don't see the errors. Looks like I have a new side project.

[Killer Shrike]

For some reason, span tags for various mathematical symbols are doubled up. Snippet begins below

<P>Active Cost: 86 for Astral Form, (Vampire character total <SPAN
STYLE='font-family:Symbol;mso-char-type:symbol;mso-symbol-font-family:Symbol'><SPAN
STYLE='mso-char-type:symbol;mso-symbol-font-family:Symbol'>&cedil;
2.5) + 12 for dimension-travelling Duplicate</P>

Below I replace the leading "<" with a ! so that it will not render as HTML.

<PRE>
!P>Active Cost: 86 for Astral Form, (Vampire character total !SPAN
STYLE='font-family:Symbol;mso-char-type:symbol;mso-symbol-font-family:Symbol'>!SPAN
STYLE='mso-char-type:symbol;mso-symbol-font-family:Symbol'>&cedil;
2.5) + 12 for dimension-travelling Duplicate !/P>
</PRE>


The same thing happens early on the page under the Disadvantage Torpor, but because its in a table cell the SPAN is squelched by the closing of the cell.

[Susano]

Ahhh yes. This is from taking a Word file and converting it directly to HTML. I need to get back to cleaning all that up. Robert, which ones of these are complete and up to date?

[Killer Shrike]

To fix it fast, open up the HTML file in Notepad, then Find and Replace

!SPAN
STYLE='font-family:Symbol;mso-char-type:symbol;mso-symbol-font-family:Symbol'>!SPAN
STYLE='mso-char-type:symbol;mso-symbol-font-family:Symbol'>

with

!SPAN
STYLE='font-family:Symbol;mso-char-type:symbol;mso-symbol-font-family:Symbol'>

(Again, Im switching the "<" for !)

If you arent on a version of Windows with Find & Replace built into Notepad, Wordpad will work as well.

[Susano]

Ahem... I'm a Mac user. I don't do Windows.

(But yes, I know the drill.)

[Robert Harrison]

Originally posted by Susano
Ahhh yes. This is from taking a Word file and converting it directly to HTML. I need to get back to cleaning all that up. Robert, which ones of these are complete and up to date?

IIRC, Vampire, Changeling, Wraith, Kindred of the East, and Ghoul are complete for 4th ed. HERO. I recently sent you complete 5th ed. versions of Werewolf, Mummy, Gypsy, and Demon Hunter X which I don't think have made it to your site yet. The Mage conversion is kind of wonky (it just reproduces Storyteller's Spheres + Arete system with a big home-made Talent) and I'm working on a more HERO-compatible, VPP-based conversion which I should finish by the end of the month.

[Susano]

Just so I don't screw anything up. Could you resend me those new files. And send me a note telling me what's all done (just like this one?).

[Agent333]

I'd like to thank Captain Obvious for picking up the ball for me on this one. I've been without a computer for nearly a month now and usually I do my own shameless promotion when someone comes asking about V:tM.

Also, I'm happy as a cat in a sea-food store to see Robert Harrison skulking about the shadows here. Robert's stuff is WAY more rules faithful than mine and likely more useful to anyone bringing WoD into the Champs universe. My rules are house-rule heavy stuff I did for myself and my players. I'm not done with my 5th Edition conversion yet, but when I am it'll be even MORE removed from the standard rules I'm sure, so help me Long...

(Agent 333 likes to do things such as cut active points in half for things like Summon and Duplication. That just drives other people buggy and shouldn't be read by small children.)

[Robert Harrison]

Originally posted by Agent333

Also, I'm happy as a cat in a sea-food store to see Robert Harrison skulking about the shadows here.

Hey Agent, it's good to hear from you too.

Originally posted by Agent333

Robert's stuff is WAY more rules faithful than mine and likely more useful to anyone bringing WoD into the Champs universe. My rules are house-rule heavy stuff I did for myself and my players. I'm not done with my 5th Edition conversion yet, but when I am it'll be even MORE removed from the standard rules I'm sure, so help me Long...

(Agent 333 likes to do things such as cut active points in half for things like Summon and Duplication. That just drives other people buggy and shouldn't be read by small children.)

I'm afraid to layer on too many house rules, for fear that I'll alienate the rare Gamer Who Actually Goes To The Trouble To Buy And Read the Rule Book. For some things, though, I had to make alterations - like parsing out the points given and rolls made in association with Disadvantages, so that vampires with a 10-pt. scale for Humanity wouldn't be stuck with Frenzying (Beserking) only at 8-, 11-, and 14- ;)

I'm looking forward to seeing your 5th ed. conversions.

[SleepyDrug]

I'm new to this discussion. Please excuse any repetitivness.

First off, very nice job on the conversion. A few questions that may have been previously asked.

1) Do you have a guestimate of when the symbol font mess up will be corrected on the vampire page? I can't seem to do anything with it.

2) How many different conversions are being discussed here?

3) What is the thoughts behind the WW level system and point cost. Was it just decided not to worry about more costly powers in HERO being lower level then other powers?

[Susano]

Originally posted by SleepyDrug
[B1) Do you have a guestimate of when the symbol font mess up will be corrected on the vampire page? I can't seem to do anything with it.[/B]

Well... Hmm... I just started a new job, so I'm not sure when... but this weekend is looking real good.

[Robert Harrison]

Originally posted by SleepyDrug
I'm new to this discussion. Please excuse any repetitivness.

First off, very nice job on the conversion.


Thanks!


2) How many different conversions are being discussed here?

Two sets of conversions (mine and Agent333's). IIRC, Agent333 has conversions of Vampire, Werewolf, a different take on Kindred of the East, and something for the Risen (a sub-species of Wraith). I have conversion notes for every WoD game except the recently released Demon: the Fallen.


3) What is the thoughts behind the WW level system and point cost. Was it just decided not to worry about more costly powers in HERO being lower level then other powers?

Basically, yes, I didn't bother with trying to make lower-level powers cost less than higher-level powers of the same Discipline.

One of the Storyteller System's faults (IMHO) is the way characters have to buy powers in a set order. Characters end up having a cookie-cutter appearance to them; for example, all vampires with Auspex 3 automatically also have Auspex 1 and 2.

Sometimes, lower-level powers are logical prerequisites for high-level powers, but this clearly isn't always the case.

For these reasons, I allow players to purchase whatever powers they want (subject to my judgement about the appropriateness of their selection), without paying attention to the what level the power was at in the Storyteller version of the game.

[SleepyDrug]

I like the powers available at set levels trend in the Disciplines. It adds something to know that only a vampire with the fifth level in a Discipline can possess a power that allows him to become desolid.

What I never liked was the idea that the lower levels are fixed and the higher levels have variety. You'd think the lower levels, which are more common, would have been more throughly explored.

In my campaign world we came up with additional low level powers creating a list of powers with 2-3 available at every level for all Disciplines.

[Agent333]

I too have chafed a bit under the static progression of disciplines, but we've stuck to it since we want to preserve the feel of the original game. One of the things that's slowing my 5th edition conversion is a new rule allowing characters with certain disciplines to buy new powers based on mixing their disciplines. These "phantom powers" are sure to add more diversity to the vampire makeup. Also, powers that were implied by WoD text and the novels I'm considering. Things like a character being allowed to buy one level of non-aggravated HKA (Reduced Penetration) for every level of Potence after the first. And Potence 5 Celerity 3 might allow you to buy an RKA with the OIF (any small object) limitation.

[SleepyDrug]

One of the things that bugs me about conversion is preserving the feel of some of the powers. HERO does change the dynamics of the powers a bit

[Agent333]

Originally posted by SleepyDrug
One of the things that bugs me about conversion is preserving the feel of some of the powers. HERO does change the dynamics of the powers a bit

Absolutely, Disciplines like Animalism and Dominate got "HEROised" into another form immediately. It's an apples and oranges situation, conversion doesn't let me make any "appenges" without violating the laws of nature. If it's a deal breaker with you, then my advice is to do what I did before I converted. Just take the elements of HERO you like and apply them to the WW system. For example, I used a Speed stat and a 1D10 system for my WW games before I just chucked it all and went to HERO. What I wanted from HERO, initially, was the combat system. As you might guess it was a pretty clunky experience mixing the two ways of doing things. You might have different stuff you want from either system (such as WW skills and Powers, but have Hero stats [why you'd want that I don't know]), and the rules will certainly be your own Frankenstein's monster. But, you are talking to the guy who played his own fantasy game for years using elements from Chaosium, DnD, and MERP! Thank the maker I found HERO.

[Nuadha]

I was just thinking this morning about the possibilty of translating my World of Darkness campaign to HERO 5e, I'm glad to see someone has already done some of the work I'd need to do.

My game started out as a Changeling game I ran diceless because I can't stand the Stroyteller system but love the setting. Then, I decided I wanted some dice rolling, so brought back the dice. Then I remembered why I hated the Storytellerr system so I made by own dice rolling rules but they have been in a state of flux since I started. I figure that par tof the problem I have with WW's system is that they have completely different stats for different characters. Vampires have Self Control as a stat. So do a few others. Fae do not. Some characters have Natures and Demeanors. Fae have Seelie and Unseelie legacies.

So, I was thinking this morning that I should translate it to a universal system. I own three. Masterbook, while a great system, would not work becaus it doesn't have suffecient rules for building new abilities. GURPS already has Vampire, Werewolf and Mage rules but no Changeling rules and GURPS doesn't have as developed a framework for creating powers. So, if I'm making powers and want to allow players to create new abilities, HERO seems best.

[Robert Harrison]

Originally posted by SleepyDrug
One of the things that bugs me about conversion is preserving the feel of some of the powers. HERO does change the dynamics of the powers a bit
I agree with Agent333 that a completely faithful reproduction of Storyteller apples with HERO oranges isn't possible. Nevertheless, I'm quite happy to shed some of the less satisfactory aspects of the way powers are handled in Storyteller.

For example, the duration, intensity, and area affected by a power in the Storyteller system are often determined randomly (i.e. by how many successes are rolled). I wasn't very happy with this as a player, and much prefer the HERO way, where such properties are determined by the player when building the power or are determined by how much END the character wants to spend. This gives more control to the players.

I guess the extent to which you would be happy with WoD done HERO-style depends on what you like and don't like about Storyteller.

[Robert Harrison]

Originally posted by Nuadha
I So, if I'm making powers and want to allow players to create new abilities, HERO seems best.

Well, it certainly works for me.:D

Changeling was one of the more difficult conversions to put together. I ended up representing the Fae Mien/Mortal Seeming dichotomy with a weirdly limited Duplication, with the Fae Mien acting in the Chimerical Reality dimension and the Mortal Seeming doing the same thing in Mundane Reality. I hope to revisit this (and how I handled the Arts and Realms system for Glamour powers) sometime soon.

[SleepyDrug]

Converting the Disciplines is the hardest part of this for me. I want to duplicate the original tone of them as much as possible.

Btw, i've also created a pretty good guideline for merits and flaws if anyone wants a look i can email it to them.

[AnotherSkip]

One of the thnigs I did was Multipower the Disciplines/Gifts.
Cheap, sligtly more limiting than straight powers and it fits some of the rules notes (no Domminate five times per turn with Celerity 5 for example).

Mage? Mage would have to be a VPP with a -1/2 Limitation: Dots in chosen Spheres. Kinda cheezy like VPP: Level based magics(-1/2) for capturing the AD&D mechanics.

[Robert Harrison]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip
One of the thnigs I did was Multipower the Disciplines/Gifts.
Cheap, sligtly more limiting than straight powers and it fits some of the rules notes (no Domminate five times per turn with Celerity 5 for example).

I reproduced this by adding the limitation "Only to perform physical actions (-1/2)" to the Celerity powers (SPD and Lightning Reflexes), with the assumption that Dominate powers are not physical actions.

Multipowers are certainly appropriate, though.

Mage? Mage would have to be a VPP with a -1/2 Limitation: Dots in chosen Spheres. Kinda cheezy like VPP: Level based magics(-1/2) for capturing the AD&D mechanics.

I agree with the VPP approach and have adopted it in my latest conversion notes. I dumped Spheres, which ultimately struck me as nonsensical. I allow mages to do any magickal feat permissible by (a) their Paradigm, and (b) the size of their VPP (which can be increased by Quintessence, built as an Aid to the VPP). Really restrictive Paradigms (such as what you find with Syndicate "mages") are worth an extra limitation on the Control Cost.

[AnotherSkip]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooohhhhhhh!!!

Hmm I _may_ have to talk to my Gm about this one he want's to run a Technocracy game.....

[SleepyDrug]

I was wondering if anyone could help me with my Merit/Flaw conversions. I own the Vampire and Werewolf rules, but I need a Merit/Flaw index for Mage.

Does anyone have one they could email or post or know a website they could direct me to?

[Captain Obvious]

Here's a list. I don't know if you'll be able to get a full writeup on these online, what with legal concerns and all. Most of them overlap Vampire or Werewolf Merits and Flaws anyway.

http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/rpg/freerpgs/bykeyword/src/ranma/Merits.htm

[SleepyDrug]

Thanks for the link. I'm kind of surprised there are so few Mage specific merits and flaws.

I like the Mage write-up i was sent.

I'm almost done with my draft of Vampire. I'll be doing higher level and alternate lower level Discipline powers a little later. When they are done, i'll be glad to email copies to anyone interested. (i haven't a web-site to post at).

I'll be moving on to Werewolf next and then Mage and the smaller supplements.

[Captain Obvious]

Maybe there are more. I'll pull out my player's guide later on and check it out. Right now I need to get some more sleep.

[SleepyDrug]

Captain Obvious - can you get back to me on the Mage Players Guide merits and flaws stuff? Thanks.

I've finished with my basic vampire conversion and most of the werewolf. I'll be doing high level disciplines soon. Does anyone need those?

[SleepyDrug]

Thanks to Captain Obvious for the info

[Susano]

I've started redoing Robert's WOD to HERO material. I've fixed some HTML problems and am owrking on others. I'l reload what I have Monday and keep going.

[SleepyDrug]

My Vampire conversion is finished. I'm still working on a few Thaumaturgical Paths I want available and i'm about to start on high level Disciplines.

I've also about halfway finished with Werewolf.

[Susano]

Portions of the WOD to HERO matieral I was was sent by Robert has been posted. More to follow.

[SleepyDrug]

Question for anyone: I'm working on alternate Vampire Discipline powers. One has me stuck. Protean power allowing the vampire to transform into a horde of small animals such as rats or bats.

Ideas?

[Captain Obvious]

My suggestion would be to use desolidification with the limitation that it doesn't work against area effect attacks, and you can't squeeze through areas smaller than a rat or bat can fit. I'm not up on what exactly any of the Vampire powers do, so if there's more to this effect of Protean than I'm accounting for, let me know, and give specifics....