A need to let off steam.

[SuperPheemy]

I'm really not looking for advice here, just need to vent. See, I ran my first Champs session tonight with a group of four players, two are pretty well-rounded gamers, and two are hard-core WoD LARP and MUXers.

I set up a pretty simple scenario, the heroes were all assembled in a privately-funded public library where the origins of the two LARP/MUX players characters occurred. Then late at night, a very competent agent and three superpowered flunkies bust through the door, and shout "Everybody DOWN! Don't move and you won't get hurt".

Two of the four characters promptly dropped to the floor, in perfect compliance with the villains. A third character sat passively at her computer terminal, and a fourth, who encountered the back-end resistance was the only character who actually tried stopping the villains.

Three hours of passive non-interaction followed. I tried threats, attacks, clues, and funny voices. Two of the characters actually <i>fled the scene</i>.

I'm dumbfounded. I mean, I've made things clear that this is a four-color superheros game. The bad guys facing the PCs were blatant flunkies, easily duped by some clever roleplaying. It was flippin' OBVIOUS that the bad guys were dim flunkies. Yet they were fled from and capitulated to as if Dr. Destroyer himself had hit the characters with a 20 die Presence Attack.

Frustration abounds, the two aforementioned LARP/MUXers have gone so far as to swear off Superheroic gaming cause "its just about die rolls". No one even bothered to ask what supervillains were doing attacking a library in the first place!

And it's not like I'm dealing with bad players, these guys are great character developers, and are normally a joy to roleplay with. Yet here I am with a frikkin scenario shot to hell because of cowardice and passivity. If I wanted characters with the Phys Lim "No Spine", and Psych Lim "Craven Yellowbellied Coward", I'd have run a scenario where they played college students trying to score beer on a Saturday night.

There we go. Rant over. Thanks for watching.

[Uncle Shecky]

I've been in games like the one you describe. I'm not sure if what I'm going to say applies to your game, SP, so don't take it personally. You might be an awesome GM. Besides, you said you aren't looking for advice. Consider this an open letter to all GMs.

Many GMs set up a scenario with a clear idea of what's supposed to happen, based on the dynamics of a typical genre story (4 color comic books in this case). If the players are in the right frame of mind, the GM can just set the story in motion and the players will keep it rolling. When a group of surly men in trench coats rush into a bank, the players know a robbery is about to take place and begin to act before the villains. "This is the part of the story where I try to find a place to change into my costume."

If the players are not in the right frame of mind, you've got to get them involved in the plot. You've got to take their motivations into account, and figure out what will make them want to take part in this story. Sometimes, of course, players can just be pricks. and there's nothing you can do to get them into it. But often the problem is different preferences and story frameworks in the minds of the players and GM. Maybe you want to play 4 color and the players want to play "Powers." If so, those villains need to do more then bust in the room and say something: they've got to hurt somebody to attract attention.

It seems you tried many different ways to get them into the game, and they simply weren't biting because they weren't in the mood for that kind of game. There's not much you can do in that case.

I was in a 2nd edition D&D game once (ick), and the DM was forcing us through this "Marco Volo" adventure. It was hackneyed, and he made it worse by running it by the numbers. I won't torture you with all the details of the story he inflicted upon us: basically, we had to escort and protect this annoying idiot with a famous name. After a few hours, the PCs got together and decided life would be a lot better if we just killed Marco. We really wanted too, and our characters (as conceptualized and played) would have done it. Christ, all of us deal with frustrating complications in real life: I game to escape that, not to babysit imbeciles. My character was a chaotic neutral Dwarven warrior. He would've skewered Marco as soon as look at him. But now I'm supposed to hold his hand because that's what the DM wants me to do? The DM looked so heartbroken by our disgust that we felt sorry for him, and continued to play his boring module the way it was "supposed" to go. A fun time was had by no one.

GMs have to remember: playing an RPG is like going to the video store with 5 friends and trying to find something you all want to see. It rarely ever works to everyone's satisfaction: someone loves Adam Sandler. There's the other guy that hates Monty Python. And the guy that only likes martial arts movies. The only way to get out of the store is for some group members to make concessions: we'll watch your Van Damme movie tonight, but next week we're renting the Wild Bunch.

GMs (and everyone involved really) need to make sure the whole group is on the same page, at least for the current gaming session. In some games, we've actually begun the night by going around and talking about what kind of adventure we're looking for, about what genre and mood is grabbing us right now, to see who should GM and what kind of game it should be. Gamers are often obsessed with what ever genre or style has their attention this week. Sometimes you need to figure that out and work with it. And sometimes you have to realize it can't be done that night, and you're better off renting the Wild Bunch.

[JohnTaber]

Hi Super P,

I had a similar experience in the first session of my new campaign which I started a few months ago. I asked for four color heroes and got 1 four color hero, 2 agent types, and 1 mystical martial artist guy. After the first session where I pretty much forced the PC to react to the villains what do they decide to do? Talk about it? Talk to eachother (i.e. who the hec are you and how did you project that beam from your forehead)? Ask why the villains attacked? Act heroic and bring people to the hospitol? Exchange phone numbers or Bat signals? Discountng the 4 color character the others simply [i]slunk away]/i]!!! I was stunned at first..."So you guys don't even talk...you just sort of sneak away...ok..." It was frustrating. :(

Uncle said it all but yeah...I agree. You can bring a horse to water but you can't always make them drink. After this session I have made lots of progress but initially it was tough. Stick with it and just let it go. I've lost several really cool plots because my players slacked off and didn't have good follow through. I've since decided that I'm fine with it...this just means I have more ammunition for future stories. "Oh...so that's what happened to that lady...whoa..." ;)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by SuperPheemy
I'm really not looking for advice here, just need to vent.

Won't give advice, but I can understand your frustration. Shall we taunt them? :)

[SuperPheemy]

Shall we taunt them?

That would be juvinile, and unbecoming of a gamer of my maturity and experience.

Besides, one of the players is my wife who I love very much, so taunting might land me in more trouble than simple frustration. I'll just keep the true depth of the plot I had designed for last night in my mind as ammunition the next time the LARP/MUX faction of my gming crew goes on a rant about how "superheroic roleplaying is shallow".

*Makes EGO roll, resists urge to begin moking post about self-preceived "superiority" of LARPers and MUXers.*

[Super Squirrel]

Originally posted by SuperPheemy
Three hours of passive non-interaction followed. I tried threats, attacks, clues, and funny voices. Two of the characters actually <i>fled the scene</i>. Oh man, you owe me a new ribcage. I think I broke it laughing.

I would recommend lending them some comics and tell them to 'study'. Then rerun the sessions. :)

[Smoot]

Man, do I empathize.

More than once, I've resorted to a rant that sort of goes "Hey! It's the offramp for the plot! Take this friggin' exit!"

[Blue]

Were they resistant to the idea of a supehero RPG to begin with? I mean, did they have to be talked into it? Because seeing as how everyone on the planet has seen superman, batman, spiderman, daredevil, etc. then they pretty much know what they are getting into. So that leads me to the conclusion that this isn't what they wanted to do and so they sabotaged the scenario so they could have something to complain about. It may not be as pre-meditated as I make it sound, but it may have been in the back of their minds. Not everyone, but the two who have now "sworn off" super-gaming.

Keep in mind this is amature psychology from someone who was not at the game.

I've never had a game blow apart like that, but i did have a player run blindly into fire and get wasted so that he could blame the game and not play again. In that case everyone present saw the situation for what it was.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by SuperPheemy
That would be juvinile, and unbecoming of a gamer of my maturity and experience.

Besides, one of the players is my wife who I love very much, so taunting might land me in more trouble than simple frustration. I'll just keep the true depth of the plot I had designed for last night in my mind as ammunition the next time the LARP/MUX faction of my gming crew goes on a rant about how "superheroic roleplaying is shallow".

*Makes EGO roll, resists urge to begin moking post about self-preceived "superiority" of LARPers and MUXers.*

I'll just point out that not all LARPers are like that. :) But then again, I've been playing Champions MUCH longer than I've been LARPing, so I may not be a typical example. :D

[Alien Knight]

I really feel for you on this. I've had several games self-destruct on that particular rock. I've come to the conclusion that some gamers simply cannot fill the role of a 4-color hero. I've (recently) had players scald information out of innocents, kill helpless HEROES that they just happen to not like, threaten authority figures, etc...
Every game needs to be tailored to the players to make it work. You need scenes and elements that interest each of the inividual players and plan on things based on how you expect them to react. I know players who cannot or will not play the upright hero. Maybe a reluctant hero that acts out of enlightened self interest, but someone who does the right thing because it's the right thing to do is so alien to them that they can't even manage it in an RPG.
Anyway, the point I'm getting at is that not everybody is cut out for superhero gaming and that needs to be considered when you're figuring out what sort of game you want to run. If 3 out of 4 of your players are better suited for "kill the monster and take its stuff" or "woe is me, I'm a horrible monster caught in a never-ending spiral of angst" you need to take that into account.

*Note: I hate WoD games with a passion that mere words cannot express except for Street Fighter which manages to be fun despite the system.

[Captain Obvious]

I've been victim to the game-system-suicide-bombers before. Once, a bunch of guys who had gamed together in the past got back together after some time to get a regular game going again. We had two guys who were Hero fanatics, one guy who apparently hated Hero, and one guy who was open to it but didn't really know anything about it. We finally decided to play our fantasy game in Hero (the hater said he'd give it a shot, but insisted that he really hated his past experience with it). Anyway, we made our guys, and as soon as we started playing, the hater's character turned out to be flamboyantly homosexual, and made a pass at the first group of orcs we came across. Short campaign....

[Tom McCarthy]

I've had the strange experience of having a player drift out of four colour mode. He was a beginning roleplayer who asked what four colour was like and played the role. Now he has discovered Neverwinter Crack and realized his flying brick is even more efficient at slaughtering mooks than his 10th level fighter is at slaughtering orcs. "I turn full density on and strike the gangster from behind at the base of the spine, aiming the knockback towards the window and street below." Ick !

[Storn]

It seems to me that what they did (hit the floor) was perfectly reasonable response.

I also think that unless they have an understanding of JUST how superpowered they are, they won't act like superpowered folk. Fear is what cowardess is about. If you had open fire at the one who was most bullet resistant and the bullet bounced! Well, then all of a sudden you have demonstrated that the PCs are beyond normal humanity. Or something like that.

Lastly, there wasn't much in your scenario that innocents or even valuable volumes were at stake. Perhaps that just didn't come up in the write up. So, a non-violent response, when the stakes are pretty low, is not necessarily a bad one.

And you cannot expect the team to react like a team on the first night. They had no idea if one of them made a move, the other PCs would back the play.

I know you just wanted to vent and not want advice. I'm sorry. But I'm trying to see the situation through your player;s eyes.

Lastly, I think its fine (and have done) broken that "4th plane" and said something like "this scene's purpose is this" after it has gone on awhile. And it is stretching out too long. Players who know what the scene's purpose is, don't then keep thinking they've missed some clue or some clever way on to the next scene. So, if you had stated; "this scene's purpose is to give you some flunkies to drub, aquaint you with the combat system and to give you an idea of how POWERFUL you are against a normal crook"... the players might have responded different. Might. Or they might just be very passive players. I have one in my group. And he is problematic to get him to be proactive and not simply reactive.

But at the very least, try again. Communicate your expectations of heroic behavior before the game starts.

[SuperPheemy]

Indeed I didn't go into much detail in my original post. I was still fuming following the scenario, and just couldn't put my thoughts in order. That's the main reason I specified that I needed to rant, rather than seek advice (though the advice I've gotten, unsolicited as it was, is entirely welcome!)

Now that I'm calmed down a bit (only a mere six days after the fact). I can see a few things I should have done differently, and though the two players who've sworn off superheroic gaming won't be coming back, there remain two players who are interested in trying again.

Thus, hope springs eternal.

[Blue]

So tell me... the one guy who sprung to action... did he make the two guys who fled look REALLY bad by kicking the flunkies' butts? Because that's the only ending to this story that would satisfy me; The hero actually being rewarded while they look foolish.

[Shadowpup]

How odd, I thought LARPers were outgoing types. I figured they would be the ones to jump into action. They were probably being jerks who just didn't want to play and now have a "reason" not to. BTW what is a WUXer?

[JohnOSpencer]

Originally posted by Smoot
Man, do I empathize.

More than once, I've resorted to a rant that sort of goes "Hey! It's the offramp for the plot! Take this friggin' exit!"
We have the "Amulet of Plot Detection" a holdover from my D&D days.

[SuperPheemy]

So tell me... the one guy who sprung to action... did he make the two guys who fled look REALLY bad by kicking the flunkies' butts?

His tale was the hilight of my otherwise frustrating evening. As I mentioned, this character stumbled on the villains "insurance policy" that is, the thug guarding the back door. In this case, said thug was the <b>Troll</b> (the same character I posted in the "Sacramento's Most Wanted" thread over in the Champions board). Troll, for his part was most definitely NOT a flunkie in terms of point value. Both characters were evenly matched. However, Troll is about as dumb as a bag of mentally-deficient rocks, and Tempest had a fantastic duel, flying energy projector vs giant brick. Tempest's player even engaged in witty banter, ultimately confusing the poor Troll who gave up the description and location of the villainous mastermind behind the attack.

In the end, the Troll got away, and Tempest had his first "battle to a draw" with a supervillain.