No Telescopic for IR?

[Heroman]

Also in the sense powers, is there a reason why I cannot add a Telescopic to the IR Perception?
The infrared perception (and ultra) seems a bit odd in that they have a built in +1 Telescopic (I don't know why since the main book does not say that) which seems to prevent the adder from showing up in the alterable section.
Radar does not seem to have this limitation. It seems to be a factor of active senses vs passive senses or maybe being part of the Sight Group...
Lastly, shouldn't the output of the sense powers display if it is active or passive? I see in the Sonar (Radar) markups they list the Active nature of it but the HD output does not show this. Have not checked the guidelines yet though to see what it says as this was just a casual observation...

-Heroman

[Simon]

You've purchased Telescopic (at the +1 level, from the sound of it) for the Sight Group....and you have IR and UV assigned to their default group, which happens to be Sight. This means that they pick up on the Sense Modifiers that are assigned to the parent group.

As for active/passive -- it is generally quite obvious from the nature of the Power. Which is why the WG does not include it in the writeup.

[Heroman]

Actually, the issue seems to be with Range Mods.

If I buy +4 versus Range Modifier for Sight Group (telescopic), it forces an entry in my Infrared "Telescopic (+1 versus Range Modifier)(built in)" in the unalterable Adders section.

Does this mean if you have any Telescopic, you can no longer take the 2 CP telescopic enhancer on the IR?

Also, this plays havok with prefabs. I am making this in a prefab, so all the entries here are vision modifiers so that I will have a nice catelog to chose from. I can see interrelations between modifiers hurting the design ability of prefabs...

-Heroman

[Simon]

You can only purchase a given Sense Modifier once per Sense. Which means that if you purchase a Sense Modifier on a Sense Group, that will make it "built in" for all Senses in that Sense Group.

This only becomes a limitation when dealing with "level-based" Sense Modifiers like Telescopic and Microscopic. The majority of the Sense Modifiers are all-or-nothing deals (Discriminatory, Analyze, Range, etc.).

If it causes problems with your prefab, you're going to have to rethink the way you're creating your prefab.

[Heroman]

Actually, most modifiers list the explicit cost of single sense vs sense group.

This also breaks the ability to have limited enhancments on ES powers, not just removing the ability to make comprehensive prefabs (in example: you probably cannot make a Rifle Sights prefab with this limitation).

Take for example:

You have the power Infrared Perception. It being sharp, you build it with Telescopic +4. You now can no longer buy a Sight Group Telescopic enhancement in Hero Designer, though there is nothing I am aware of in the rules to prevent it. Adding it strips the IR of it's Telescopic without warning, changing what you are creating.

In more detailed example, if the following cannot be done in Hero Designer:

(Built from ES: Telescopic)
+4 versus Range Modifier for Sight Group (6 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (Magic) (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

(Built from ES: Infrared Perception)
Infrared Perception (Sight Group), Telescopic (+4 versus Range Modifier)


HD will not let the 2 powers co-exist. Also as a bit of inaccuracy in the build screen, when you have the 2 powers together it says the IR has a built in +1 telescopic which is inaccurate.

-Heroman

[Simon]

You are incorrect.

If you purchase IR with Telescopic, you can still purchase Telescopic for the Sight Group -- but once you do, the Sense Modifier will be removed from IR, effectively overridden by the group-level purchase.

Sorry if this doesn't do what you need, but it is not going to change (nor is it in any need of change, IMO).;

[Heroman]

Sorry about the order of my statements, but the jist was that adding the telescopic altered an existing power without warning. I am still poking around, but am unsure where the rule is that overall levels superceed individual levels for senses, seems kinda odd that the logic for that would be built in. Steve indicates that the combination I am looking to use (Infrared with telescopic and then a general sight telescopic) is a valid build (http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=592203#post592203) so it seemed that the HD stripping of telescopic from the Infrared was improper, rules wise.


It actually can be done, by making a compound power which looks as ugly as sin with any limitations and such needing to be repeated for each line item.
In addition, without fudging, it does not cost the same when you add in limitations (such as when building an Improved Infrared Vision spell) and kinda seems to be taking the long way around something which should be simple. I was hoping not to have to dance around with compounds and customer powers (or maybe individual power custom modifiers) just to get this rather simple build.


Improved Infrared Perception: Infrared Perception (Sight Group), Telescopic (+4 versus Range Modifier) (7 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)
3 CP

becomes

Improved Infrared Perception: (Total: 9 Active Cost, 3 Real Cost) Infrared Perception (Sight Group) (5 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2) <b>plus</b> +4 versus Range Modifier for Touch Group (6 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) <b>plus</b> Subtractor because original power costs 2 points less (-2 Active Points) (Real Cost: -2)
3 CP (was 5 before the custom power subtracting the cost)

Not too pretty...

[Simon]

I never said it was a rule, I said that it was only an issue in the case of "level-based" Sense Modifiers, of which there are a total of three (Telescopic, Microscopic, and Rapid). In all other cases, having the Sense Group purchase remove the individual purchase is both logical and needed.

If you are in the rare case that you need both a Group-level purchase and a Sense-level purchase of one of the three level-based Sense Modifiers, then do one or the other as a Custom Adder/Custom Power. Far easier than your way (and not "clunky").

[Dr.Device]

You are incorrect.

If you purchase IR with Telescopic, you can still purchase Telescopic for the Sight Group -- but once you do, the Sense Modifier will be removed from IR, effectively overridden by the group-level purchase.

Sorry if this doesn't do what you need, but it is not going to change (nor is it in any need of change, IMO).;

That makes some sense in a lot of cases, like most superhero games (although see below), where an enhanced sense is always available, but not so much for a Fantasy game, where it might well be a spell, or Heroic games where you might be mixing equipment.

As it is, a character could not have <i>Eyes of the Eagle</i>, a spell which provides telescopic vision (+20) while it's active, and <i>Eyes of the Nighthawk</I> a spell which provides Telescopic Nightvision (+10) while its active. Each spell has its own limitations. Neither will be up all the time. Depending on the exact nature of the spells, they might be additive if up at the same time, or exclusive.

Similarly, a character could not have Binoculars (+10 Telescopic to Sight Group) and a Night Scope (Nightvision, +6 telescopic).

But even in Superhero games, or in the case of characters with innate enahcned senses, there is nothing in the rules (as far as I can tell) to prevent you from having additional single sense levels of Telescopic on top of Sense Group levels that apply to that sense. There's no reason Nighthawk shouldn't have 10 levels of Telescopic with the Sight group and an additional 4 levels of Telescopic just with his Nightvision.

You can work around this either with Custom adders (which is what I did for my spells) or compound powers (You can buy Telescopic for the same sense group multiple times), but this seems unnecessarily awkward for such a handy program.

As it is, the display is somewhat confusing. When you have Telescopic for the Sight Group, no matter how many levels you have, what IR Vision and Niogthvision shows is "Telescopic (+1 versus Range Modifier)" with no indication of how much.

There is another issue, also. As mentioned above, if you have purchase IR vision with Telescopic (say 10 levels), and you then add a Telescopic vision power. The telescopic levels get stripped off of the IR Vision with no alert that this is happening. If you then change your mind and delete the Telescopic Vision power, the telescopic levels are still gone from IR Vision. It can be very easy to overlook this, since there is no feedback to tell you what has happened.

[Dr.Device]

I never said it was a rule, I said that it was only an issue in the case of "level-based" Sense Modifiers, of which there are a total of three (Telescopic, Microscopic, and Rapid). In all other cases, having the Sense Group purchase remove the individual purchase is both logical and needed.

If you are in the rare case that you need both a Group-level purchase and a Sense-level purchase of one of the three level-based Sense Modifiers, then do one or the other as a Custom Adder/Custom Power. Far easier than your way (and not "clunky").

Didn't see this before my above post.

I don't understand why this is either needed or logical. In my previous post I said it might make sense in Super Hero games, but on further thought, I don't even see that.

Is there any circumstance where it isn't okay to purchase additional single sense levels (range, microscopic, or rapid) in addition to sense group levels? I can't think of any. This isn't a rhetorical or smart-aleck question. I seriously can't think of any case where you shouldn't be able to do this.

[Simon]

Read what I wrote:

The level-based Sense Modifiers are the exception. In all other cases, they are exclusive, which is why the system was developed in this manner.

If you want to have a sense-level override of a Sense Modifier, use a custom adder.

[Dr.Device]

Read what I wrote:

The level-based Sense Modifiers are the exception. In all other cases, they are exclusive, which is why the system was developed in this manner.

If you want to have a sense-level override of a Sense Modifier, use a custom adder.

Sorry, I did misread that.

Given that, if they behave differently than the other Sense modifiers, then perhaps the application could treat them differently. Range seems like easily the most common of the sense modifiers used on existing senses, so it seems a little odd to leave it to the exception status.

For any sense modifier, though, the silent removal can be harmful. If I add and delete a power or piece of equipment, I shouldn't need to go through all my other equipment and powers to make sure they haven't been changed. This is especially true when picking from pre-fabs, where I might double click on the wrong item and just delete it without checking to see exactly how it was built.

It really is unfortunate that if one buys a character a telescope, it's going to screw up any of their sight based spells, powers, or other equipment that were purchased with the telescopic adder. Worse, there is no feedback that this has happened.

Basically, the way it is, if I am working on sight-based spells or equipment for my campaign, I just have to use Custom adders instead of the built-in modifiers, or risk messing up multiple items. This seems a waste with such rich functionality otherwise available. [1]

If this won't change in HD 2, consider this a feature request for HD3, that the level based modifers get their own treatment in senses. Barring that, is there any reason this shouldn't share the preference for Modifier Intelligence use? For instance, I have mine set to warn, but not delete. It could be unavailable, but not delete automatically if already there, and the application could warn me about the "error".

[1] No, this isn't hypothetical. I have been building a bunch of sensory spells for my campaign, and went back and checked them when I saw this message. I do, indeed, have to go back and fix several spells that got altered when I added The Eyes of the Eagle. On the spells I created after, I had noticed Telescopic was unavaliable, but just used a custom adder (I hadn't noticed it in the unalterable adders). I hadn't submitted my own bug report because I hadn't had a chance to produce a reduction yet. It also bit me once on Rapid Sense.