Modelling killing attacks

[Sean Waters]

THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT WHETHER KILLING ATTACKS ARE GOOD OR BAD

Right, having got that out of the way, let me tell you one reason I don't like killing attacks:

You shoot someone with a gun and they have on an armoured vest with 10 DEF. You roll 10 Body and a 5 STUN multiplier. You do no Body and 50 Stun. There's plenty of examples in film and TV where you get hit by a bullet that does little or no actual damage and it KOs you. I'll live with that because I have to.

Now you stab the same unfortunate with the same result. I can't think of one example from anywhere where an armoured individual gets stabbed with a knife, takes little or no damage and is KO'd.

So how do you model a knife and a gun as seperate items with unique characteristics when the gun does 2d6 damage and the 1d6 knife wielded by someone with (+15 STR) also does 2d6 damage?

Reduced penetration won't work: it doesn't effect stun. In fact I can't think of any way using standard advantages and limitations, unless you buy the knife as two linked 1/2d6 attacks.

Alternatively you'd need a custom construct. Any thoughts?

[Sean Waters]

Complete aside, but interestingly, buying a 4d6 RKA with reduced penetration is cheaper (60 AP with - ¼ limitation is 48 RP) than buying a 2d6 RKA and linking another 2d6 RKA to it(30 AP with another 30 AP with a - ½ limitation is 50 points), and has more utility as reduced penetration does not effect the stun damage you do. Funny old game, eh?

[Hugh Neilson]

Simple answer: if you don't believe a given KA shuld be as effective at inflicting STUN damage, require it be purchased with one or more levels of "reduced STUN multiple". DONE.

[sbarron]

Now you stab the same unfortunate with the same result. I can't think of one example from anywhere where an armoured individual gets stabbed with a knife, takes little or no damage and is KO'd.

So how do you model a knife and a gun as seperate items with unique characteristics when the gun does 2d6 damage and the 1d6 knife wielded by someone with (+15 STR) also does 2d6 damage?This won't really address your question, but it might make the visualization of the "knife" KO easier for you to swallow.

1. Knives don't do 1d6K. 1d6K is a short sword. Knocking out someone with a sword blow is easier to imagine.

2. The x5 stun multiplier is the non-hit location equivilant of a head shot. Knocking someone out with a blow to the head is easier to imagine.

So for the example you have above, someone with a 25 STR and a short sword hits someone with a 10 DEF helmet in the head. A KO seems at least possible, no?

[Constantine]

That was a short thread...

[Sean Waters]

Simple answer: if you don't believe a given KA shuld be as effective at inflicting STUN damage, require it be purchased with one or more levels of "reduced STUN multiple". DONE.

Won't work: without the armour the knife can do plenty of stun, possibly more than the bullet. It is the interaction of the power and the defence that causes the problem. You could buy 'reduced stun multiplier when target has some sort of applicable defence', but that would seem to be somewhat problematic in itself: defences work differently for different attacks. High velocity bullets that are stopped by padded ballistic cloth spread the kinetic energy, so most of it gets through but not as killing damage. Bullets stopped by rigid plate inserts are going to transmit far less energy. A knife will go through ballistic cloth like it was a cotton shirt, but will be easily stopped by a rigid insert.

Maybe the problem is less with the way we model the attack as the way we model the defence...

[Sean Waters]

This won't really address your question, but it might make the visualization of the "knife" KO easier for you to swallow.

1. Knives don't do 1d6K. 1d6K is a short sword. Knocking out someone with a sword blow is easier to imagine.

2. The x5 stun multiplier is the non-hit location equivilant of a head shot. Knocking someone out with a blow to the head is easier to imagine.

So for the example you have above, someone with a 25 STR and a short sword hits someone with a 10 DEF helmet in the head. A KO seems at least possible, no?

Actually a short sword is extremely unlikely to stun someone through a 10 DEF helmet: that is the equivalent of full plate and more: you'd need a much heavier weapon than that.

Anyway, throwing knives do 1d6 damage, as do hatchets, or make it a normal knife and a Walther PPK: the principle remains the same.

[Sean Waters]

That was a short thread...


...and just when you think it is over...

[pinecone]

The knife vs gun problem can be partially handled by using the "Real weapon" lim...."Dude there is no way you can do more stun than you can with your fist, when you stab armored locations...(add short argument)"

[Hyper-Man]

It seems like TheRealProblem with comparing muscle powered weapons to gunpowder powered ones like the Dagger/Dirk and the .380 A Walther PPK/S (which do equal 1d6k damage assuming a STR 11 character) is the fact that modern body armor is primarily designed to stop high velocity attacks like bullets much better than slow velocity attacks like daggers, fists, or baseball bats for that matter. Conversly, ancient armor was very limited in its effectiveness vs. the new technology of gunpowder projectiles (which like crossbow bolts were effectively Armor Piercing vs them).

Since this is the rules Hero System Discussion Thread it is by definition not genre specific. As the issues above are really going to depend a great deal on the specific genre of game that you are dealing with you may want to find the relevant Genre Thread to post these concerns.

:doi:
HM

[Dust Raven]

THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT WHETHER KILLING ATTACKS ARE GOOD OR BAD



Right, having got that out of the way, let me tell you one reason I don't like killing attacks:
:rofl:

Um.. <ahem> ...sorry.

[Dust Raven]

Actually, in your specific example, you should be looking at all of the Heroic rules, rather than Superheroic. Check out Hit Locations and STR Minimums specifically. You'll notice that it's a lot harder to STUN with melee weapons because you don't get to add all your STR to the damage. Also, using Hit Locations, you won't get the extremes on the STUNx as often.

[ghost-angel]

My personal opinion... and this is only because Hero does not take into account SFX with it's base powers, if you think knives should do less stun than guns make a house rule that says so.

Knives get a D3 STUNx, Guns get the normal D6-1 STUNx.

It's definately in the "House Rule" category, and sometimes many campaigns call for that in order to create the suspension of disbelief needed for the game to seem realistic.

The on thing I like about Hero is that the mechanics are not tied to a special effect, a Killing Attack could mean anything you want.. if you come up with a series of SFX (gun and knife here) that should have slightly different application of a given result, such as the STUN from the attack, then you can introduce a rule that redefines them under the specific SFX presented, unless there is an Advantage or Limitation that could do the same without a new campaign rule...

that's my thoughts on it.

[zornwil]

It seems like TheRealProblem with comparing muscle powered weapons to gunpowder powered ones like the Dagger/Dirk and the .380 A Walther PPK/S (which do equal 1d6k damage assuming a STR 11 character) is the fact that modern body armor is primarily designed to stop high velocity attacks like bullets much better than slow velocity attacks like daggers, fists, or baseball bats for that matter. Conversly, ancient armor was very limited in its effectiveness vs. the new technology of gunpowder projectiles (which like crossbow bolts were effectively Armor Piercing vs them).

Since this is the rules Hero System Discussion Thread it is by definition not genre specific. As the issues above are really going to depend a great deal on the specific genre of game that you are dealing with you may want to find the relevant Genre Thread to post these concerns.

:doi:
HM
You raise a great point, along with TRL's point about defenses, and you can apply (possibly partial) Limitations to different types of armor to simulate this.

For example, "Knight's Armor, 20 PD with +1 Lim (Only vs Melee Weapons (or whatever)), 5 PD (no Limitation), 5 ED," and "Kevlar Armor, 20 PD with +1 Lim (Only vs Projectile Weapons (again, or whatever), 5 PD (no Limitation), 5 ED"

[Sean Waters]

TheRealProblem

Subtle! :)