Who else is dead and loving it?

[Enforcer84]

Well, maybe not loving it, but staying that way. I know from a few threads that Professor Muerte, Bora, and Whip are gone; does anyone (Steve?) know what has happened to other villains?

The list I am interested in is:

Giganto
Plasmoid
Whiteflame
Pantera
Charger
Factor 7 (Enemies Assemble)
Brick
Cobra
Time Master

[Uncle Shecky]

Don't know the answer to most of these, but here's what little info I have:

I haven't seen Brick since the 2nd edition modulette "Viper's Nest." I don't know if he ever appeared in any other product. Since Bluejay and Cheshire Cat are still around, there might still be hope for Brick.

And Giganto is still alive. According to Champions Universe p. 70, after Feuermacher and Scorpia betrayed Muerte, Giganto "retreated into the isolation of the Amazon jungle, and has not been seen since."

[Monolith]

Giganto is alive and well, and eating camen in South America.

Plasmoid more than likely never existed due to the continuity of aliens now.

I believe Whiteflame, Pantera, and Charger did not exist.

Factor 7 probably did not exist due to them not being owned by Hero Games, but by the author who originally submitted them.

I do not know about Time Master. My guess is that he has been replaced by Captain Chronos.

Brick and Cobra might yet make appearances. My guess is that you might see them in the upcoming VIPER sourcebook.

[Enforcer84]

Oh good, Giganto might make a big reapperance in my universe as a member of Divine Right.

[BobGreenwade]

Brick was in Scott Bennie's VIPER sourcebook for 4th Ed Champs (page 118). I imagine he'll be back in the new version of VIPER later this year; he's a well-loved old standby in the Champions Universe. (Of course, that's just an assumption.)

By Cobra, do you mean King Cobra? There's been no official word on him that I'm aware of. I've seen and heard some vague hints that a few favorites from the old Champions Universe may have their origins in the new one yet to come, so he may end up forming COIL as a splinter group from VIPER or some such. I think we'll have to wait and see.

[CrosshairCollie]

--Meaningless opinion of random nobody to follow--

Remember, it's your game world. Unless you're submitting it to HERO for official publication, you can do whatever you want. Me? I'm gonna 350 the 'Forgotten Champions' from 4th Edition and do ... somethin' with 'em. Trying to decide if I want another hero team or a new villain team ... ;)

[Steve Long]

Giganto -- he exists; see CU.

Plasmoid -- never existed.

Whiteflame -- never existed.

Pantera -- doesn't exist... yet.

Charger -- never existed.

Factor 7 (Enemies Assemble) -- never existed.

Brick -- never existed.

Cobra -- You mean King Cobra, Dr. Timothy Blank? He doesn't exist... yet.

Time Master -- never existed. (Though who can say, with time travelers? :) )

[Captain Photon]

Steve,

While you're on the board, and in a good mood what about
Ray
Sunburst
The ninja guy who was one of Dr D's henchmen in Day of the Destroyer (Stormwatch?)
Villians International

[tiger]

" What do you mean I don't exist! I'm King Cobra I'm the greatest scientist that ever lived. Why I the serprem.."

"Get back in the closet" braking out a large bat. "I..whack..said..whack..get..whack..back..whack..in there..slaming & locking door"


Sorry guys I thought I had that door locked.

[Lord Liaden]

Given the far more explicit "snake" connection to VIPER in the new CU, I'd be very suprised if King Cobra does not play a prominent role in the reboot of that organization.

I'm actually enjoying having multiple versions of characters from the different Champions editions to play with - mixing and matching different elements for the version in my CU can add to their richness. For ex, the Dr. Destroyer I last used in my campaign was a combination of the German/Nazi Dr. Doom clone from 4E Champs, and the Atlantean Destroyer from the New Millennium setting: in his rage and pain when his ship was torpedoed, Albert Zerstoiten's spirit aroused that of the Destroyer trapped beneath the Atlantic Ocean, who possessed and merged with Zerstoiten.

The multi-year disappearance of Dr. Destroyer in the official CU works perfectly for me with my composite version - I figure that Destroyer was "pulling a Sauron", constituting a new form while he absorbed the life forces of the 60,000 people killed when Detroit was levelled, which also provides a justification for his enhanced power upon his return.

[Captain Obvious]

I never saw the New Millenium version of Dr. Destroyer, so I don't know how he was altered if at all, but Dr. D was always pretty averse to dealing with magic. If I recall correctly, Classic Enemies has an adventure hook dealing with this. Essentially, the good Doctor gets his hands on some ancient magical tome, decides it's trash, and turns it into a booby trap for some unsuspecting Morbane....

At any rate, to get to my original point, it doesn't seem in character for Dr. D to be absorbing life-forces unless he has the victims strapped into some kind of life-tapping machinery.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Captain Photon
Steve,

While you're on the board, and in a good mood what about
Ray
Sunburst
The ninja guy who was one of Dr D's henchmen in Day of the Destroyer (Stormwatch?)
Villians International And while we're at it, how about VOICE? Does that organization, and all that is part of it, go into the "never existed" column (as I've come to understand)?

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious
I never saw the New Millenium version of Dr. Destroyer, so I don't know how he was altered if at all, but Dr. D was always pretty averse to dealing with magic. If I recall correctly, Classic Enemies has an adventure hook dealing with this. Essentially, the good Doctor gets his hands on some ancient magical tome, decides it's trash, and turns it into a booby trap for some unsuspecting Morbane....

At any rate, to get to my original point, it doesn't seem in character for Dr. D to be absorbing life-forces unless he has the victims strapped into some kind of life-tapping machinery. I've never owned C:NM, but I've read parts of it. In that setting Dr Destroyer was completely remade into an ancient mystical horror with little resemblence to Zerstoiten.

[TheEmerged]

It's my understanding that VOICE, like CLOWN, is out of the current continuity for the primary reason that Steve doesn't like them. I'm still holding out for Sanctuary/Neutral Ground, though.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
I'm still holding out for Sanctuary/Neutral Ground, though.

I'm just curious (not trying to flame), what is the appeal of Neutral Ground anyway? It all just seemed so illogical to me. (You will all bow down before the Destroyer, but until then lets play some chess)

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
It's my understanding that VOICE, like CLOWN, is out of the current continuity for the primary reason that Steve doesn't like them. That's my understanding as well; I'm just looking for a confirmation.
I'm still holding out for Sanctuary/Neutral Ground, though. I wouldn't hold my breath. The island of Destruga, which originally had become the new location for Sanctuary, is given in CU as having been destroyed. OTOH Steve may relent and "re-create" it if there's enough demand....

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade
I've never owned C:NM, but I've read parts of it. In that setting Dr Destroyer was completely remade into an ancient mystical horror with little resemblence to Zerstoiten.

The background for that version of Dr. Destroyer was almost identical to that given in the current Hero Universe meta-setting for Sharna-Gorak the Destroyer, so Steve Long must have liked the concept, even if he didn't want Dr. Destroyer to be that entity. In the New Millennium setting, the Destroyer awakened during WW II. His magical powers having waned over the millennia, he began augmenting them through studying technology.

On the one hand, a supervillain who was once a god takes Destroyer farther from the "Dr. Doom clone" image that turns some people off from Zerstoiten; on the other, giving him a magical dimension actually makes him more like Doom in breadth of capability. I just find combining both origins into one makes for a more interesting character and a more credible arch-villain of the CU, while really not invalidating very much from the current continuity. As always, YMMV. :)

[Steve Long]

Ray -- doesn't exist (yet), and may never
Sunburst -- doesn't exist (yet), and may never
The ninja guy who was one of Dr D's henchmen in Day of the Destroyer (Stormwatch?) -- replaced by Umbra (CU 99 sidebar)
Villians International -- never existed
VOICE -- never existed

[altamaros]

Originally posted by Steve Long
Time Master -- never existed. (Though who can say, with time travelers? :) )

Does that mean that you would be likely to make a adventure on "Crisis on infinity of Champion Earths at Zero Hour" ?

(with a war of avatars inside :) )

[BobGreenwade]

Y'know, Steve, I'm starting to wonder if this could be put into FAQ. I think everyone's pretty much uninterested in whether any part of the Western Shores (Fantasy Hero) or The Alliance (Star Hero) will continue to be a part of the new Hero Universe, or at least is assuming that they won't, but the new Champions Universe draws so closely from the old that it may be helpful to list all the old popular standbys that got cut out. :)

Oh, and altamaros: there is a Secret Crisis event in the CU history, in 1985 (CU page 25).

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade
That's my understanding as well; I'm just looking for a confirmation. I wouldn't hold my breath. The island of Destruga, which originally had become the new location for Sanctuary, is given in CU as having been destroyed. OTOH Steve may relent and "re-create" it if there's enough demand....

I think Steve should just leave Destruga well enough alone. It just feels to0 'silver age'/70's. IMHO, Destruga/New Sanctuary/Neutral Ground is a bad idea. It simply takes too much away from the inner everyday problems that a superhuman is subjected too. Supers are people too, and they understand better than anyone that life isn't fair. If their lives are harder because of their abilities, then too *bleeping* bad. They'll just haveta get over it.

[CrosshairCollie]

Hey now, some of us *like* the Silver Age mentality. That's all I run or play in. :)

Seriously, even if they do reprint/recreate Neutral Ground, just 'cause it's there you don't have to use it. However, if there's enough demand, as someone said, that means there'd be a market, and it can be sold. You don't like it, just don't buy it. :)

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie
Hey now, some of us *like* the Silver Age mentality. That's all I run or play in. :)

Seriously, even if they do reprint/recreate Neutral Ground, just 'cause it's there you don't have to use it. However, if there's enough demand, as someone said, that means there'd be a market, and it can be sold. You don't like it, just don't buy it. :)

No offense was intended. (let me amend my earlier statement)

Me personally, I wouldn't use it. But that certainly doesn't mean that I don't like the product line or that I would stop buying it. I'll use what I like and discard the rest. If there's enough of a demand for them to write it into the official universe, so be it. I may even change my mind and decide to use it. Who knows?

[CrosshairCollie]

Sorry, I shouldn't have snapped like that. I'm just having trouble getting players who will both accept that I run Silver Age style games, and act appropriately during said games.

[Syberdwarf2]

no problem...

[TheEmerged]

Speaking as the person who brought up Sanctuary/Neutral Ground... I look at it like this. Yes, the basic concept is a little Silver Agey: but that doesn't mean that's all there is to it. Aberrant for example had its own version of this (the Amp Room).

Speaking for my own campaign, Sanctuary has become a hotbed of intrigue. The "Isla Delta" branch of the Defiants want to turn it into a "nova homeland", which Hyperion refuses to grant. Of course, Hyperion has a certain degree of Teragen sympathy -- he openly says he created Sanctuary so novas could be novas amongst their "own kind". So why the contradiction?

The other thing is... Sanctuary is a wonderfully tempting backdrop for "minigames", trying to imagine how the existance of superpowers affects common sports for example.

[CrosshairCollie]

There's also a certain degree of sadistic glee you get out of a scenario like, say, building up an intense hatred between a villain and a hero team (or just a specific hero on that team), and then they both show up at Sanctuary together. Imagine the joy of that villain counting the bulging veins on the hero's head as he desperately wants to, but knows he shouldn't, throttle the guy. Brings a fair tear to me eye, it does.

[Hermit]

While I need to adjust it, as Destruga was never converted in the 'official' CU, I already have my own niche filled out for Sanctuary.

I am playing Sanctuary as it's true name sake. As increasingly draconian methods and required 'registration' were occuring for superhumans world wide (Registration even the 'law' in the USA, if not enforced so much), some Super heroes, rather than be forced to break the law, made a political statement. Using their own combination of super powers and technology, they formed their own island: A refuge for those who valued the right to privacy, and distrusted big government.

It did indeed become a resort like atmosphere for a time, and even some (non violent) villains were welcomed (though watched more carefully). More and more superhumans have flocked to it on a permanent basis though. Many do not consider themselves villains OR Heroes, and of course, by now, some of the 1st generation's children are growing up on their own.

The U.N. is refusing to recognize Sanctuary as a soveriegn nation. In turn, Sanctuary refuses to allow U.N.T.I.L. to operate on it's soil. Many nations are growing increasingly concerned that Sanctuary is becoming a haven for 'Super Terrorism' or at least a sponser of it. Sanctuary is certain that these nations (and organizations serving them, perhaps even PRIMUS) have sent spies among it.

Welcome to Sanctuary, population less than a thousand, but 99% of them a walking weapon.

[Captain Obvious]

Nice spin on things, Hermit. That new Sanctuary storyline is awesome.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious
Nice spin on things, Hermit. That new Sanctuary storyline is awesome.
Thank you kindly, Captain. I hope my players like it as much *Knock on wood*