Nomenclature

[Sean Waters]

Can I drum up a little support here for the idea of changing the name of the power 'Power Defence' to 'Adjustment Defence' or alternatively can one of you follow me around and write it out in full on all my character sheets so I don't keep getting it confused with Physical Defence when I abbreviate it?

Huh? :stupid:

[pinecone]

I write it down as Pow def......sometimes I slip and put down "CD" 'cause once apon a time it was called Characteristic defense...(I think...?)

[Sean Waters]

I write it down as Pow def......sometimes I slip and put down "CD" 'cause once apon a time it was called Characteristic defense...(I think...?)

...but Pow Def is four extra letters, think of the RSI!

Would now be a good time to mention changing the name of Flash Defence to Sensory Defence?

I know we have to divorce the names of powers from the effecte we want to acheive but it is much easieer to do so if the names don't quite so obvioulsy suggest specific interpretations.

Perhaps we should get really esoteric and call the powers 'Gordon' and 'Jenny' and so on, as in 'I hit him with 14d6 of Gordon....' and 'He just laughs: he's got his Jenny up!'

Maybe not. :rolleyes:

[zornwil]

Of course if it's a Fantasy HERO game, AD could also mean Arcane Defense...

:D

(aren't you glad I bothered to dig all the way back just to reply with this?)

[OddHat]

Power Defense must be eliminated entirely. Adjustment powers must be purchased as working against a real defense. Failure to comply will ... well, it will go completely unpunished, but I thought I'd mention it. Feh.

Oh well.

[Hugh Neilson]

I write it down as Pow def......sometimes I slip and put down "CD" 'cause once apon a time it was called Characteristic defense...(I think...?)

WAAAAYYY back in 1st Ed when Drains and Transfers (there weren't any other adjustment [owers) only worked against characteristics. Good memory!

[Dust Raven]

Can I drum up a little support here for the idea of changing the name of the power 'Power Defence' to 'Adjustment Defence' or alternatively can one of you follow me around and write it out in full on all my character sheets so I don't keep getting it confused with Physical Defence when I abbreviate it?

Huh? :stupid:

Not from me.

Then again, I only abbreviate Characteristics like that, and Power Defense isn't a characteristic. Powers are always written out.

P.S.: EB, FF, FW, HA, RKA and HKA are all exceptions to this rule, but that's just because... well... I've been doing that since I started playing.

[Sean Waters]

Isn't idiosyncracy great? I mean sometimes you'd never know we were all playing the same game.

And how many of you confuse the abbreviation (why is that such a long word?) for Life Support with the abbreviation for Laser Sights, huh, huh?

OK, no-one :cry:

(Thanks, zornwil: I owe ya one, well at least one: possibly a whole clip! :) )

[zornwil]

Power Defense must be eliminated entirely. Adjustment powers must be purchased as working against a real defense. Failure to comply will ... well, it will go completely unpunished, but I thought I'd mention it. Feh.

Oh well.
Just for the record, I'm still down with this.

And to TRL, thanks for the warning, I'll be sure to wear the kevlar and run funny (a la Mysterymen when being "stealthy")!

[Sean Waters]

Just for the record, I'm still down with this.

And to TRL, thanks for the warning, I'll be sure to wear the kevlar and run funny (a la Mysterymen when being "stealthy")!

Always ready with the heads-up, buddy, but don't you always run like that? :)

[zornwil]

Always ready with the heads-up, buddy, but don't you always run like that? :)
Hush now, you weren't supposed to mention that!

:snicker:

PS - liked your rep note, that was funny, too.

[lemming]

Hmm. Finally wandering by the thread. I've actually had the same thought on Power Defense and kind of like it being "Special Defense".

Oddhat makes a good point, but there are cases where I think there should be a off the wall defense. Though I hardly ever go for the really odd attacks as a GM...

[OddHat]

Hmm. Finally wandering by the thread. I've actually had the same thought on Power Defense and kind of like it being "Special Defense".

Oddhat makes a good point, but there are cases where I think there should be a off the wall defense. Though I hardly ever go for the really odd attacks as a GM...

Well, I do understand the desire for an odd defense. This is how I've handled it from time to time in my face to face games:

Adjutment SFX = Defense

Physical Force (Joint Locks, Bone Breaking, etc) = Hard PD
Burning and Freezing = Hard ED
Light Based = Flash Def
Acid, Poison, or Chemical Based = Hard PD or ED, Player's choice at character creation. Could also be purchased as an NND (see below).
Magic Based = Mental Def
Strange Chemicals, Acid to the Eyes, Virus, etc = Purchased as NND versus appropriate Life Support or other defense.

I never noticed any particular imbalance, and it didn't slow down character creation more than describing the SFX always does. Only real effect on the game I noticed was that more players started hardening part or all of their defenses.

However, this was just a house rule, and others are free to ignore it.

[ghost-angel]

sorry, no wote here.. but I always write Def on my sheets in the same order...
PD/rPD/ED/rED/MD/rMD/PD/rPD - Physical/Energy/Mental/Power

not that I've ever had resistantMental or Power but the possibility exists. and any Flash Def is just written after that assuming I have any, almost never do.

Just get into the habit of putting everything in the same order all the time and you'll be fine. Maybe. no promises.

[The Hyborian]

The main issue I have with power defence is that I have a hard time coming up with a Fx for it. I usually like to have some on my super characters. Adjustment powers are to potentially crippling to leave that kind of hole in your defences. But I have trouble imagining exactly what the Power Def represents. Afterall, it resists against everything from magic spells to tasers to gas guns to mutant viruses to nanites to . . .well, you get the picture. Other than saying "well, my charcter is really tough, he could resists these attacks through toughness and willpower", im not sure how to describe my own power. It always makes me feel like a bit of a powergamer, which I dont like. On the other hand, I usually feel like its too important to go without.


T.H.

[Sean Waters]

Well, I do understand the desire for an odd defense. This is how I've handled it from time to time in my face to face games:

Adjutment SFX = Defense

Physical Force (Joint Locks, Bone Breaking, etc) = Hard PD
Burning and Freezing = Hard ED
Light Based = Flash Def
Acid, Poison, or Chemical Based = Hard PD or ED, Player's choice at character creation. Could also be purchased as an NND (see below).
Magic Based = Mental Def
Strange Chemicals, Acid to the Eyes, Virus, etc = Purchased as NND versus appropriate Life Support or other defense.

I never noticed any particular imbalance, and it didn't slow down character creation more than describing the SFX always does. Only real effect on the game I noticed was that more players started hardening part or all of their defenses.

However, this was just a house rule, and others are free to ignore it.


Someone rep OddHat for me: I like that approach, but for some reason I seem to have been appreciating his recent posts too much and can't rep him again at present. Bad OddHat, stop making sense.

I suppose the difficult one to understand is Transfer: never quite sure what sfx to use there: life energy/magic/erm...mutant, er...IT JUST DOES, OK?

Under current rules if you wanted to apply normal defences to adjustment powers you should probably use AVLD, but that seems odd for what is, in effect a limitation (normal defences being practically ubiquitous). Perhaps you could have a -0 to -1/2 limitation for adjustment powers so that they work against other defences (-1/2 if it is normal pd or ed, -1/4 if it is resistant defences and -0 if it is hard pd/ed or another exotic defence).

The trouble with power defence, more than virtually any other attack power defence, is that it has to cope with such a huge variety of utterly different sfx, so it makes little sense to have a catch-all.

[zornwil]

TRL, he's been repped.

[TheRealVector]

No, and...No.

[ghost-angel]

Here's the thing .. I don't see Power Defense blocking any more special effects than any other Defense.

It's easy to say Tough Skin can have Power Defense, it's so tough it resists not only brute force but other subtle forces such as leechman's drain and generator-man's transfer .. ya just can't get through his skin to the juicy parts.

There SFX are no more wide open for Power Def than any other Def. at least IMO and experience.

[Sean Waters]

I think the difference is that damage is a real world effect, whereas drains are not (other than the NND ones like injected paralytics, which are arguably CON based mental powers anyway). Damage is understandable in everyday terms, drains only in invented ones and the thing about that is everyone invents differently

You can define drains and such like as all working in a similar way, but I'm not sure there is an accurate frame of reference.

You also get the problem that you have the Popsicle who is immune to cold, has LS: cold, massive hardened resistant ED v cold (this guy can take a bath in liquid nitrogen with no ill effects) and who gets hit by Freezo who has a dex drain he's defined as chilling his opponent's muscles to slow down the chemical reactions. Popsicle doesn't have PowD. Oh dear.

Part of the sfx based nature of Hero is the problems it engenders when you just have not thought through all the possible variations of an attack and a sfx combination you might have thrown at you, and believe me, someone will come up with something you have not thought of: flash freezing your eyeballs (flash), cooling your armour to make it more brittle (find weakness), whatever.

This may be why we have hands to wave, but I would not be particularly sad to see EITHER PowD go in favour of the OddHat approach, or using the OddHat approach and keeping PowD but making it more expensive (2 points per point, maybe?)...the basic assumption being drains work against normal defences unless you buy them with an advantage (which is why the defence should be that much more expensive). :)

[Sean Waters]

TRL, he's been repped.

Cheers. I owe you one....no, we've done that joke, haven't we? :)

[Dust Raven]

The main issue I have with power defence is that I have a hard time coming up with a Fx for it. I usually like to have some on my super characters. Adjustment powers are to potentially crippling to leave that kind of hole in your defences. But I have trouble imagining exactly what the Power Def represents. Afterall, it resists against everything from magic spells to tasers to gas guns to mutant viruses to nanites to . . .well, you get the picture. Other than saying "well, my charcter is really tough, he could resists these attacks through toughness and willpower", im not sure how to describe my own power. It always makes me feel like a bit of a powergamer, which I dont like. On the other hand, I usually feel like its too important to go without.


T.H.

Well, Power Defense isn't any more of a catch-all than Physical or Energy Defense. Mostly Energy Defense though, as it covers fire, heat, lasers, radiation, "blasters", plasma, ion beams, electricity, cold, some magic, some psionics and depending on who's running the game, sonics, and whatever else the GM or player just decides to define their EB versus ED as.

[Dust Raven]

You also get the problem that you have the Popsicle who is immune to cold, has LS: cold, massive hardened resistant ED v cold (this guy can take a bath in liquid nitrogen with no ill effects) and who gets hit by Freezo who has a dex drain he's defined as chilling his opponent's muscles to slow down the chemical reactions. Popsicle doesn't have PowD. Oh dear.

You also have the option of requiring or assuming a -0 Limitation "not versus targets with LS: Extreme Cold" or making the Drain DEX NND versus that LS.

[Sean Waters]

You also have the option of requiring or assuming a -0 Limitation "not versus targets with LS: Extreme Cold" or making the Drain DEX NND versus that LS.

You are quite right, but I think my concern is that not everyone thinks these things through adequately at the character creation stage, and I include here any number of commercial/professional/system characters.

You have no control over what people do with the rules so it might be an idea to fix the potential problems in the rules.

Or it might not. :)

[Dust Raven]

You have no control over what people do with the rules so it might be an idea to fix the potential problems in the rules.

Or it might not. :)

Well, as the GM of my group, I have absolute control over what happens with the rules and what people do with them. Besides, I'd rather fix a character write-up than the rules... it's easier to fix the character every time (that, and the rules, for the most part, aren't broken).

[zornwil]

The problem to me is that real-world Drains seem to me to line up against PD or ED. Strike the nerve in my hip so my Running is reduced? Usually PD in the real world. Taser strike that detracts from DEX? ED. A supernatural strike that drains my EGO? Could be ED or MD or could be an AVLD or even NND depending a lot, but I can Reason from Effect straight back to these existing constructs. Reasoning from Effect works not only as well with PowD elminated but one could argue even better. Obviously, I'm among those who argues "even better".

[Sean Waters]

Well, Power Defense isn't any more of a catch-all than Physical or Energy Defense. Mostly Energy Defense though, as it covers fire, heat, lasers, radiation, "blasters", plasma, ion beams, electricity, cold, some magic, some psionics and depending on who's running the game, sonics, and whatever else the GM or player just decides to define their EB versus ED as.

Don't know if I can agree with that so much. A decent laminate armour: kevlar and ceramic plate, for example, over a copper mesh carrying a mild charge, with a neoprene and fleece lining and a nice white or shiny outer skin will keep you safe from virtually any kind of energy as it is all really working on the same principle: what transmits energy.

I have no idea how a strength drain would work so I have difficulty in thinking of something that would stop it. I could guess at microwaves that interfere with the muscle bundles as they are at a resonant frequency, but that would just really be a type of energy resistant armour: it would not require another class of defence.

In fact if we needed to add anything to the classes of defence (and we probably don't) I would plump for chemical defence as your average chemical reaction (say an acid spray) might well be slowed by 'normal' defences but they are unlikely to stop it as the way in which it causes damage is of a rather different order. I know you can model acid with NND and AVLD, but the type of appropriate defence is less obvious to my mind. OK a force field would arguably stop the acid getting to you, but what of the Toxic Avenger character who just ignores that sort of attack: what do you build him with so that he can ignore attacks in all the various ways chemicals can be built? There is not even an appropriate LS in the system.

OTOH I can't (despite my best arguments) reasonably see Pow Def being taken out of the system of even made more expensive: the tide is definitely flowing the other way at present.... :) :straight: :(

[Sean Waters]

Well, as the GM of my group, I have absolute control over what happens with the rules and what people do with them. Besides, I'd rather fix a character write-up than the rules... it's easier to fix the character every time (that, and the rules, for the most part, aren't broken).

Absolute control?

Luxury.

When I were a lad, we didn't even have 't illusion of control...we lived in 't rolled up newspaper in 't middle of 't gaming table, and if we tried to assert ourselves in any way we were ridiculed, beaten and buried alive.

[Dust Raven]

Absolute control?

Luxury.

When I were a lad, we didn't even have 't illusion of control...we lived in 't rolled up newspaper in 't middle of 't gaming table, and if we tried to assert ourselves in any way we were ridiculed, beaten and buried alive.

And me without my shovel! :D

It's not that much of a luxury for me, more for my players.