Dark Champions - Please no Harbinger of Justice...

[CPaladino]

I was flipping through my DC book last week, and saw the Harbinger of Justice.

I hope that guy doesn't make any return appearances in any DC books.

He's what, 800 pts? Way too high for any dark-champions game I'd be running. He has a Variable Power Pool for his guns which he warps in from another dimension to use. What do I even say to THAT? Dark champions don't teleport guns from anywhere. They pull them out of their holsters.

Am I in the minority on THIS issue too? :)
I just would like dark champs. to be very Punisher-esque. Punisher fighting a low-powered super is ok, but Harbinger is just too hokey for my tastes...

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by CPaladino
I hope that guy doesn't make any return appearances in any DC books.

Well, if I'm not mistaken that's Mr. Long's own character, and he actually *earned* all those points over a long time in play. So I don't really mind so much seeing him, although a "Harbinger lite", basically him as he's just starting out rather than after years and years of odd events that gives him access to super tech extradimensional spaces and hundreds of Contacts, might be fun to see.

On the other hand, I'm not much of a Dark Champions kind of guy, myself, so maybe I'm biased.

[Hermit]

mmmm... "Harbringer: Year One" could work :)

[CPaladino]

I was aware that Steve wrote the book, I didn't know he played that character through all those experience points though... Doesn't change a whole lot though.

While I DO have a problem with 800+ points for a DC setting, I have MORE of a problem with the concept. Warping guns in from another dimension to use in combat is just not DC stuff.

It's pretty 4-color to me. Batman, or Nightwing is about as 4-color as I'd want to get in a Dark Champs. setting. I'm a HUGE Punisher fan, so I like the idea of doing the level just above the "modern" era. I mean, Lethal Weapon is good and all, but I'm personally loving the idea of super-powered Lethal Weapon.

Punisher is good because he interacts with the 4-color guys, lives in their world, and fights against some pretty tough guys (where he needs to call in 4-color backup), but the setting is grim and dark.

The DC book as a whole was just awesome. It hit on exactly what I wanted 90% of the time. Harbinger just seemed "out of place" in that book. I mean, he just screamed "too 4-color" for me, even though his personality and motivation may have fit in the DC world, he didn't...

[death tribble]

You are probably in the minority as there are several Harbinger fans around.

just beware of anyone singing Blue Moon....

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by CPaladino
While I DO have a problem with 800+ points for a DC setting, I have MORE of a problem with the concept. Warping guns in from another dimension to use in combat is just not DC stuff.

I see the Harbinger as a bridging character that came from Dark Champions roots and grew into what he is today after many, many adventures. It's the kind of thing that happens in games that you just won't see in comics, because people want character growth and don't want the writers coming in and stripping them of years of continuity like they do in comics. That's part of why I wouldn't mind: he may seem out of place now, but he wasn't, originally. Something that gives more of a feel for that growth, such as doing a Year One version, could certainly be useful.

Think of Batman, though: he really is a better example than the Punisher for this. The original character was pretty Dark Champions (Villain falls to his death, and his comment is along the lines of, "That saves society the expense of a trial"), but has grown into a Four Color character over the years.

[CrosshairCollie]

Honestly, I think the Harbinger was there for two reasons:
1. Kind of a Smorgasbord. Excepting the infinite-gun VPP dealy, he had a little of everything skill-power-talent wise, so someone who hit a mental block could look over his sheet and go, 'A-HA! THAT'S what I'm missing!'
2. Plot device. He's there to lure the PCs places you want them to go, give cryptic advice, and/or get shot to pieces so your PCs know that they're in deep kimchee now. :)

Just what is 'dark' varies, I think. Depending on the writer, Spider-Man, Daredevil, and Batman are as Dark Champs as the Punisher; they just don't use guns. I think it's more a matter of setting and atmosphere than powers, points, or abilities. There's nothing saying Dark Champs characters have to be gun-toting killers. I remember an old Captain America miniseries where he went street-level investigating the drug trade. Sounds like something the Punisher does ... but it was good ol' Cap. Things got a *lot* more complicated, but anyway, let's move on, shall we? :)

For instance, Spider-Man very often is Dark Champs; down on the street-level of importance and influence, not making a huge difference in the way people's lives are lived, that sort of thing. Then, he guest stars in Avengers or joins the latest Cosmic Crossover (a la Secret Wars), and converts to Four-Color Mode.

[Hermit]

Let's not forget, for some, before Steve Long, not as many played in the style of 'Dark Champions'. Steve could have started Harbringer out in a rather gray Champions game, wanting to RP a 'true' vigilante, to see where it would go. Then again, maybe not :) But if he did, it would certainly explain some unreal elements if the character was teamed up with the likes of energy projectors and super powered bricks at the start of his career.

[FTJoshua]

As usual, I don't have the book with me; but isn't the "interdimensional teleport" aspect of the VPP just a cinematic effect of Harbinger "just happening to have" whatever gun he needed at the time? My understanding was that the VPP was not cosmic at all, it functioned as a special effect similar to the Vanishing Teleport also mentioned in DC. It's still technically a Teleport, but the effect is that the PC had to be able to get from point A to B; likewise, Harbinger doesn't really reach across dimension, he just always happened to bring the right gun for the right occasion. I always thought it was just kind of a Never Run Out Of Bullets/Hollywood gimmick.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by FTJoshua
As usual, I don't have the book with me; but isn't the "interdimensional teleport" aspect of the VPP just a cinematic effect of Harbinger "just happening to have" whatever gun he needed at the time?
No, it's actually a teleport system, though I don't think it is actually extradimensional. The guns are described as having teleportation equipment installed so that he can bring them from one of his bases and send them back at need.

[ZootSoot]

Um, is it just me? I always read old HoJ not as a mentor/npc hero but as a villain in DC; I thought he was mean to be the guy who had taken the vigilante thing too far and stepped over the line separating good from evil.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by ZootSoot
Um, is it just me? I always read old HoJ not as a mentor/npc hero but as a villain in DC
That's certainly a use for him, but I don't believe it was the original intent. I tend to think of all the characters like him (the Punisher, the Vigilante) that way, though.

[CrosshairCollie]

Well, really, where that 'line' is is gonna vary from game to game ... I've always been of the 'anybody who kills crossed the line', but I'm not a Dark kinda guy. :p

A lot of what the Harbinger is or isn't depends on your GM and style of game. If the PCs are all of the 'kill 'em all and let the mythological powers sort 'em out' type, then his particular brand of overkill is fine. If your game's more moderate, and you're trying to pull the 'There, but for the grace of said mythological powers, go I', where you're trying to show the PCs the result of a lack of moderation, then he's your sterling example of crossing the line.

[Beetle]

I always thought HoJ was hilarious. Dark Champions starts with about 40 pages describing how to do a gritty, "street-level", low powered game. Then the first sample character is an 800 point monstrosity who teleports guns into his hands. That was "laugh out loud" funny! :D

[Lord Liaden]

I've always wondered whether and how much the Harbinger was changed for his writeup in Dark Champions; earned experience or not, I find it hard to imagine him working with any group of PCs as written, even other vigilantes. Harbinger's view of what constitutes a crime, and appropriate punishment, is so extremely black-and-white that I doubt he would be able to cooperate with anyone who wasn't an attitudinal clone of him.

He just might have gotten along with the Protectors after their exposure to the Skull Pendant, though. ;) FWIW, I used the Harbinger of Justice in one campaign I ran, essentially as a "villainous" opponent for the PCs. I decided that he was the Marksman (NPC hero mentioned in various old Champs books and in the Champions comic-book) after alteration by that same Skull Pendant.

[CPaladino]

Beetle summed it up pretty well!

I am finding I'm really in the minority in just about everything I've posted lately. (Art in the Hero Books; Multipower/EC; Dark Champs; etc). :P

Our group of players and I share 75% of the same opinions, so I've always thought I was in the mainstream thinking here, I'm finding out otherwise!

Can everyone agree at least that a 800pt. "gun-teleporter" may not be the BEST mascot for the Dark Champions books though?

I'm not saying DC is all guns. I think Punisher, (certain titles) of Batman, Nightwing, are all good examples.

Spider-Man I wouldn't personally consider DC. He rarely fights too many just out-and-out psycho characters. Venom is pretty much crazy, but only directs that hatred at Spidey. Carnage is out and out crazy, good DC character actually; Maybe the LIzard. I haven't read many current spidey adventures lately.

But regardless. I'm just hoping for a little more appropriate mascot of the DC line... Preferrably someone who costs less than say 250 total pts.

[Talon]

Harbinger, the Elminster of Dark Champions. :)

[Armitage]

Originally posted by GamePhil
No, it's actually a teleport system, though I don't think it is actually extradimensional. The guns are described as having teleportation equipment installed so that he can bring them from one of his bases and send them back at need.

One of the villains in "Murderer's Row" is a demon that pierced Earth's dimensional barriers by finding a pocket dimension full of guns and hitching a ride on one of them when the Harbinger summoned it.

[SuperPheemy]

One of the things I appreciated about the Harbinger in Dark Champions was his "iconic" feel. He wasn't necessarily a character one would be playing in the game, but his look, attitudes, and abilites did a good job of summing up the mood Dark Champions was trying to set. I think of the Harbinger as being similar to Batman from the venerable Batman Role Playing Game. Batman had stats and abilities that even a very experienced character couldn't achieve, but he was a good example of what type of character fits in Gotham City.

When Dark Champions emphasizes low point values for characters, it's because at those low point values it is easeir to envorce the street level mood the game is stressing. 200 point characters are more likely to utilize real world weapons than flashy power armor, or cosmic abilities.

[Balok]

I would consider Batman a Dark Champions style character -- he fights maniacs with few or no powers, mostly. And he fights a lot of ordinary crooks.

Harbinger is, in a certain sense, what Batman would be if he didn't have *any* respect for criminals. See, Batman respects criminals as people, and therefore doesn't murder them or torture them. Harbinger lacks that restraining element.

I'm not sure he as ever part of a team, and it's somewhat hard to imagine a typical four color team that would have him. I always saw him as a loner.

Harbinger does have an opposite number, sort of. Check out Andres Panthanatos.

[RDU Neil]

I'm with the "Dark Champions" is about "feel" rather than "Guns and killing..." camp.

Batman and Daredevil AND Punisher are the iconic DC characters, IMO. The fact that most people think DC means "Vigilante killers" was always kind of odd in my mind. DC, to me, meant "crime fighter" vs. "world saver." The focus was on human crime and criminals... local concerns... violence and it's effect on individual lives... rather than cosmic powers and saving the world and flying "above" humanity. The Punisher is one kind of DC character, but the Batman of Detective Comics (vs. the Batman of JLA... two different characters, if you ask me...) is also DC.

HoJ is fine in "feel" except for the teleport thingee, IMO. While he should be amazingly gifted and deadly as he wants to be... part of the "feel" is dealing with realistic ballistics... running out of ammo... etc. The teleport gizmo just struck me as power gaming munchkinism.

In my campaign, I have a long running, 550 pt. vigilante type who is TOTALLY in the right feel. I had to encourage the player to buy up the DEX and SPD a bit, but this guy is all about being the best "crime fighter" out there... not saving the world with the spandex crowd.

God I love Dark Champions... :D

[urbwar]

Originally posted by CPaladino
I was flipping through my DC book last week, and saw the Harbinger of Justice.

I hope that guy doesn't make any return appearances in any DC books.

He's what, 800 pts? Way too high for any dark-champions game I'd be running. He has a Variable Power Pool for his guns which he warps in from another dimension to use. What do I even say to THAT? Dark champions don't teleport guns from anywhere. They pull them out of their holsters.

Am I in the minority on THIS issue too? :)
I just would like dark champs. to be very Punisher-esque. Punisher fighting a low-powered super is ok, but Harbinger is just too hokey for my tastes...

I think Harbinger fits fine. Sure, the teleporting guns is kind of high tech. So is all of Batman's vehicles. HoJ's nemesis, Card Shark, uses high tech gear, and some of his thugs are super powered.

Harbinger is a perfect example of a DC character in a low supers style DC game. His only real power is the teleporation of his guns.

I ran two Dark Champions games when it came out. One was a low supers game. It went ok, but I wasn't happy with it. My second one was more along the lines of street level heroes, with only gadgets as powers. While they all carried guns, some used cool gadgets (one pc used the utility belt from the supplements, and another one has a small vpp that he used to simulate various gadgets, since the character had been a special effects expert along the lines of Mysterio before he became a vigilante).

I think HoJ should be in the next DC, just revised to fit him so that he isn't more along the lines of being an ally of the regular supers. Of course, that depends on how the next version of DC is going to be presented. if Low level supers will feature in it, then his guns as they were would fit, imho

[Dynamo]

In the Question on Dark Champions (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=10259) thread, Steve limited his commentary concerning the Blue Moon Killer to the following:
There will be no Bang-o the Justice Dog.

Other than that, I'm keeping it all secret for now... :cool:Speaking for myself, I like ol' Harby and would be terribly disappointed if I didn't see him in all his killer vigilante glory somewhere in the Dark Champions line.

While I respect CPaladino's dislike for the character, I find the "I don't like this, so I don't want to see it in the product" stance remarkably tiresome. Don't like it? Don't use it, ignore it, don't read it, skip the page(s), tear the section out of your copy and burn it. Whatever, I want my Harbinger!

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by urbwar

Harbinger is a perfect example of a DC character in a low supers style DC game. His only real power is the teleporation of his guns.



You think HoJ is "low" powered? Holy Cow! I'd tremble to see your high power campaigns. :eek:

Granted he doesn't do mega dice of damage, but his DEX and gadget and skill set would make him a challenge for all but your high powered TK or mentalist types, and he would still be quite effective from ambush.

[lemming]

Originally posted by death tribble
You are probably in the minority as there are several Harbinger fans around.

just beware of anyone singing Blue Moon....
I always think of the Mice Chorus from Babe when I see a reference to Blue Moon. And now I have an image of a crossover. ack.

[Darren Watts]

If any of you guys owned a game company, you'd put your own PCs in the official universe too. ;) dw

[urbwar]

Originally posted by RDU Neil
You think HoJ is "low" powered? Holy Cow! I'd tremble to see your high power campaigns. :eek:


You misunderstood. I said "Low Supers" as in low powered superpowers used in the game. Harbinger is still a human being, just one with alot of experience under his belt. His enemies, much like Batman's, ranges from talented normals like himself, to some of the super powered goons of the Card Shark.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Darren Watts
If any of you guys owned a game company, you'd put your own PCs in the official universe too. ;) dw
Oh, yeah.

[Steve Long]

I will comment only briefly, by way of explanation.

It's important to remember that I was specifically instructed to write Dark Champions as a supplement for Champions, not as a genre book, and that Harbinger was developed for and played in more-or-less regular Champions campaigns. As such, he takes advantage of tools (teleportation technology) that would be available to him.

Once the idea of Dark Champions as a "genre" caught on, I gleefully scrapped the idea and just gave him a big Gadget Pool thing (sort of -- long story). Once there's no need for high-tech super-wizardry, I'd rather get rid of it, because those who have observed that it doesn't quite "feel" right are correct. It "felt" just fine for the games he was played in, though, and it fit Dark Champions as I was instructed to write it. So did Copperhead, who's a powered armor character.

Lord Liaden asks:


I've always wondered whether and how much the Harbinger was changed for his writeup in Dark Champions; earned experience or not, I find it hard to imagine him working with any group of PCs as written, even other vigilantes. Harbinger's view of what constitutes a crime, and appropriate punishment, is so extremely black-and-white that I doubt he would be able to cooperate with anyone who wasn't an attitudinal clone of him

He's virtually unchanged. Yes, it's quite a challenge to play him in that respect -- but it's far and away the most exciting, intriguing, and in-depth roleplaying I've ever done. There are few things I miss more in life than the chance to play Harbinger regularly.

While I daresay I drove some GMs crazy, in the end I think everyone enjoyed him. ;)

[starblaze]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
Harbinger, the Elminster of Dark Champions. :)
LOL

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by Steve Long
I will comment only briefly, by way of explanation.

It's important to remember that I was specifically instructed to write Dark Champions as a supplement for Champions, not as a genre book, and that Harbinger was developed for and played in more-or-less regular Champions campaigns. As such, he takes advantage of tools (teleportation technology) that would be available to him.

Once the idea of Dark Champions as a "genre" caught on, I gleefully scrapped the idea and just gave him a big Gadget Pool thing (sort of -- long story).

I find this piece that Steve wrote, very interesting. I always assumed the Dark Champs was just a sub-genre of Champions... the Batman's and Punishers in the shadows as the Avengers soar overhead. I never OCCURRED to me that it was a separate genre until things like Hudson City came out. In that supplement, you had people with code names and costumes, yet their stats were really very "normal." No powers, high tech armor or super gadgets, and would stat out as "best of the best" in an old Danger International campaign... but would never survive more than an evening in most Champions games. It was startling, to me.

My question is, to those who've used Dark Champs a lot... did your adventures tie in with a superworld (as mine did) or did you create your own Dark Champions universe/genre world?

Note: I've always kept my old DI campaign very VERY real world, and separate from any superworld stuf. I may have used Dark Champs book information, but the DI game was trying to reenact things like To Live & Die In LA... not comics.

Note II: I did use the characters from Hudson City as a group of vigilantes trying to live up to the crime fighting of Vengeance and Phantom Hawk in my supersworld. They learned how out of their depth they were, very quickly.

[CPaladino]

My group is less fans of 4-color, so ours was a stand-alone universe in that we played 4-color champs. a few times, and after DC never went back, the world never was fully spelled out in great detail so the world evolved as such and it was no big deal. (It would have sucked if I had done a ton of work on a 4-color world and then we liked DC better, lots of changing).

As far as my "i don't like this so make it go away from future products." I guess it did come off that way. I guess I should have said "In his current 800 pt. form, I'm not a fan of him being the mascot."

I don't have much problem with the idea behind the character given (like Steve said) he fit in the DC universe more (no teleporting tech.; etc.). But he's just too "god-like" in his current form (even if the gun pool became non-teleporting, but just a standard VPP or what-have-you).

The champions team (Ironclad, Defender, etc) are based on the same points a standard character would be based on, so I'd assume that HoJ if used, would be the same points that a standard DC character would be. I'll assume this will be 350 for a super-DC campaign, or less for a street-level type.

[JmOz]

Steve,

Thank you for your comments

I'm going to make a few comments to everyone on my opinions on Harbinger:

I had 3 major problems with the character:

1) I found the VPP to be inappropriate for the setting (Glad to see Steve feels the same way, and I understand why now)

2) Gun #1 should have had a write up (think I might start a thread to that effect)

3) I felt a base CV of 13 with 14 levels is overkill, let me rephase that:

CV of 10 with 10 levels is overkill, that was just a inherent wrongness. I am sure that is once again because of his more 4-color roots

[BarryB]

Originally posted by RDU Neil
My question is, to those who've used Dark Champs a lot... did your adventures tie in with a superworld (as mine did) or did you create your own Dark Champions universe/genre world?

When I had a Dark Champions campaign, it was set in the same world as the super supers.

This did pose problems that have come up in other threads, notably involving a Batman write-up. I came to feel that some characters required two write-ups: one for Champions and one for Dark Champions.

While I agree that the thing that makes Dark Champions "dark" is the small-scale and gritty nature of the scenarios, it's a lot easier to enforce the genre conventions if the characters are fairly low-powered. When you have a martial artist who is tough enough to take damage from robotic killing machines and who can carve up a tank for breakfast, then it's kind of hard to challenge him in a DC campaign.

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by BarryB
When I had a Dark Champions campaign, it was set in the same world as the super supers.

This did pose problems that have come up in other threads, notably involving a Batman write-up. I came to feel that some characters required two write-ups: one for Champions and one for Dark Champions.

While I agree that the thing that makes Dark Champions "dark" is the small-scale and gritty nature of the scenarios, it's a lot easier to enforce the genre conventions if the characters are fairly low-powered. When you have a martial artist who is tough enough to take damage from robotic killing machines and who can carve up a tank for breakfast, then it's kind of hard to challenge him in a DC campaign.

Ah... the two write ups concept. I've never had to use it, but I know what you mean. As I said somewhere else, Batman in Detective is a completely different character than Batman in the JLA.

In my campaign world, since it is more internally consistent than comic universes, I originally wrestled with the "What do you do with Batman/Cap, when the JLA/Avengers start dealing with alien invasions, and such." Or... "How can you have a team with a Thor and an Ant-Man on it as PCs?"

My answer was three fold:
1) My universe was never four color, though there were super powers. 1500 point Superman types didn't exist... those were the NPC gods like Zeus, etc. or big bads like Dr. D. So power ranges weren't so extreme.

2) Concept was more important than PC balance, so if your concept called for a well trained normal... expect to be outclassed in full blown super battles. (Even as a kid, I always thought it cheesy that Cap on a space cycle was any kind of threat to invading Kree armada's. Yes... as a tactical, inspirational leader, he can have an effect... but when he can bowl over Skrull shock troops in the same manner he bowls over jewel thieves, it lessens the threat, drastically.)

3) I alwasy discussed "character" before the game. Since the RDU is a big world, it was fine for players to have many different PCs. They could have the world beating Mega Man... and the sneaky, street fighter The Fist... both built on 300 pts., but one clearly outclasses the other in raw power, and the second has skills and fighting ability out the wazoo. Rarely do they meet... but that's fine. It's a big world and tey both have their place.

Using these concepts, I've stayed away from the "2 write up" syndrome.

[Grailknight]

After reading Steve's comments, I can see Dark Champions in a more forgiving light. I always thought the characters fit the feel that was desired but I had real problems with the power levels used. I would like to see Harbringer in a version that is lower powered to fit street level campaigns.
JmOZ, You hit upon my main problem with DC, the outrageous skill levels. If it were just Harbringer and Panathanos, it would be okay beacuse they represent the pinnacle a character can attain, but you repeatedly see characters with +3 combat, +3 specific weapon, and +4 hit locations. Overall DC was higher powered than most 4th edition campaign supplements because the attacks were at the same power level with much higher ocv's. If Steve had been allowed to write it as a standalone universe, I like to think that he'd have kept the levels more in check.

[Champsguy]

Panthanatos...

(shudder)

My oh my that character was nasty.

I also wanted to see a writeup for gun #1, but just figured it was a really big killing attack. :)

Personally, I didn't mind Harbinger having all those levels, because he's supposed to mow down crooks like nobody's business. He's Batman gone crazy. Iconic characters aren't supposed to be balanced. I always had a problem with the Champions being the big team on the block, when they were only starting characters. The Harbinger was a true icon.

The only other problem (besides the teleport thingy) I had with him was that he was built inefficiently. I went through and saved that character a good 150 points with just a couple of tweaks. All perfectly legal.

Dex, only for combat, at -1/4? No! Bad Steve! Take "Does not affect figured" at -1/2. It gives you skill rolls, too. And a +1/4 "Gun teleportation cannot be traced" on his VPP??? You don't need that! It's not a real teleport! That's just the special effect of the VPP! Get those points back!

You got to squeeze every last point you can, man! SQUEEZE those points!

[JmOz]

I always figured gun 1 was a

2.5d6 RKA Penetrating, 32 Charges 4-clips and a 2.5d6 RKA AF-5, 32 charges 4 clips all as an OAF (technicaly two powers in the VPP)

[The Mad GM]

I am probably prejudiced about this, but I have always had a fondness in my heart for the big H and his nemesis Cardshark. It had a sort of bridging quality between DC and 4 color, like the old Batman TV show crossed with the movie Seven. And frankly you have to admire the persistence it takes to play a character that much in the face of being hunted by just about every other character in the group.

I have a pretty good idea what gun #1's write up is, but I ain't tellin'. Basically it is up to the individual GM to figure out an attack that would do significant Body damage to the higher level bricks, then double it.

Since Steve played him up from a regular four-color character, I'm curious what a 'hindsighted' version of a starting character would look like. I have a sneaky suspicion that he raised the starting points from 250 to 350 just so he could make a 'starting' Harbinger that he could live with :D .

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by The Mad GM
I am probably prejudiced about this, but I have always had a fondness in my heart for the big H and his nemesis Cardshark. At the aforementioned GameStorm get-together I learned that I'm not the only person who refers to him as "Harby." :D

[Enforcer84]

I always wanted to see a no holds barred smack-a-thon between Panthanatos and Jade Tiger...

[Patriot]

In my campaign, I use BMK mostly as an information broker

A coulpe of the vigilante types on the team were staking out a rave, looking for A vampire who mas a thumb on the crime in Chicago, it just so happened that BMK was there also , looking for someone else. They traded info , BMK terrified them into staying out of his way, the jumped off the side of the building and Vanishing Teleported away.
Out of game the players were like ...Coool!
in game it was like ...I hope he dont show up again.

Played right no matter how you want to use him , ay any level , he makes a great addition to the game, anywhere from Street-level, through high powered (Pcs are averaging at about 500 points right now)

One team member was hunted by him years ago, Acritical success on an attack did enough damage to kill an opponent, BMK contacted another team mate, and talked him into selling out the first one...it was a great story.

[Ranxerox]

I would just like to post a general agreement with CPaladino.

I bought DC hoping for a lot of 250 pt villians because that is where I had my characters start off at and where I felt most comfortable with with the players vs. normals. It ade them clearly super but not so much more powerful than normals thta they could afford to ignore them.

Unfortunately, even though it was the recommended starting point in grey book Champions, few of the characters in the enemy books were even close to that few points. Consequently I was really hoping that DC would correct that shortage. So you can imagine my dismay when I took home my brand new copy and opened it up to immediately see this 800 pt monstrosity. Most of the villians listed in that book were between 400 and 600 pts and without serious nerfing would have eaten my players for breakfast.

When 5th Ed DC comes out, I don't mind If it still has HoJ but I would appreciate a larger number of low power villians than the first DC. Because even though the new Champions recommends 350 pt characters, I still like the feel of 250 pt characters and I've never enjoyed nerfing my villians.

My two cents.

[Vulcan]

Our GM used him as the base for his Batman. Replace the Gun pool with a gadget pool, change some disads, and viola The Dark Knight!

[BigJackBrass]

Good heavens! Did someone just teleport this thread back from a pocket dimension? :D

[Lord Liaden]

Dan Simon hasn't fully recompiled the Search databases since the upgrade of the discussion forums software. Apparently that's causing the Search to skip over the intermediate year stuff, and just show recent or very old results. I think that's why we've been seeing a lot of these older threads being revived since the upgrade -- they've moved farther up the list of Search results, so people are more likely to notice them (but may not notice the date).

[casualplayer]

He certainly is a great big chunk of points yet many a lesser point character from Galactic Champions would mop him up if Harbinger was caught unprepared. Points are a meta-fiction! Don't give them so much weight.

I incorporated HoJ into my campaign world. He was the main antagonist in my Villains game, infiltrating the team and killing a few members when he sprung his ambush. Otherwise he existed "off-panel" in the mainstream Champions part of the campaign, occasionally getting a mention or a cameo but not guest-starring because of the potential of outshining my players.

[Lord Liaden]

Our GM used him as the base for his Batman. Replace the Gun pool with a gadget pool, change some disads, and viola The Dark Knight!

Personally, I see him as more likely to play a cello than a viola. It has a deeper, more menacing tone.

(Sorry, couldn't resist.) :sneaky:

[Psybolt]

I enjoyed reading this thread. I enjoy Harbinger, though I do not use other characters in my universe.

[Bloodstone]

Dan Simon hasn't fully recompiled the Search databases since the upgrade of the discussion forums software. Apparently that's causing the Search to skip over the intermediate year stuff, and just show recent or very old results. I think that's why we've been seeing a lot of these older threads being revived since the upgrade -- they've moved farther up the list of Search results, so people are more likely to notice them (but may not notice the date).

Lies! All Lies!!! He's just trying to cover up yet another outbreak of Bubbmancy!

:p

[bubba smith]

what did i do wrong THIS TIME?

[Lawnmower Boy]

what did i do wrong THIS TIME?
Do wrong??
You rock, Bubba.
I think Bloodstone is kidding you.

[Bloodstone]

Yeah, I'm just teasing around, playing off the fact you Necromancy a lot of threads.

Thus I have dubbed the practice Bubbamancy! I'm helping to grow your legend man ;)

(I'm not trying to be mean spirited here, so hope it's not coming off that way...)

[bubba smith]

LOL it sn't thanks bloodstone, lawnmower boy